TAP question

[bigshooter]

was over at ATG and saw some tap75gr but it is listed as .223, is this the same stuff you guys rave about or do they actually make .223 and 5.56 TAP?.

if so is there much difference in performance?

thanks-

[topraider]

They make both. Go to hornady.com and you will find what you're looking for. Under LE.

[bigshooter]

thanks for the info.

i went and checked, the .223 has a better BC but the 5.56 is faster by about 50 fps and has slightly better terminal numbers.

I would say in my situation the .223 would work just fine as i don't see much of a difference to get hung up about.

i wonder how much accauracy i'm going to loose shooting this .223 out of my 5.56 chamber though?.

[topraider]

At the AR15.com on the ammunition page, there is a very good 27 page thread on the subject.

[bigshooter]

At the AR15.com on the ammunition page, there is a very good 27 page thread on the subject.


my apologies.

[DarrinD]

If you have a choice, and price isn't an issue, you want to go with Hornady TAP 75gr 5.56mm - the key is you want to pick up #8126N

My understanding from some experts, even an IP on this Forum, is that the .223 LE is just as good for typical law enforcement engagement distances.

Personally, I don't like "just as good" when I could get the 5.56mm NATO TAP at the same price. Actually, I gave up on XM193 (for carry/not practice) because the accruacy of the TAP is so much better for me at every distance out to 200m with no scope. Even at close distances, I believe the terminal ballistics of the TAP 5.56mm will either be more effective than or just the same as the .223 TAP. LEA's have legitimate reasons to issue TAP 75gr in the .223 variety. I picked up my last couple cases for about $180/200 rounds online at Ammunitiontogo.com Good Luck

[topraider]

I second that and BIGSHOOTER, why the apology? I only referred you to what I think is the best information I've seen on the subject even thou it's the other site.

[bigshooter]

forgive me if my comments were off base, I was interpreting your suggestion as if that was beneath any comment in the M4forums.

as in, the 120 page "which tactical spoon is most effective against jello" thread, i didn't think my question was that stupid but.........

again, if that was not the intent, please disregard.

[topraider]

Sorry for the missunderstanding. There has been quite a bit of reserch done on the 3 different 75 grain TAP loads. The 223 75 TAP FPD #80268 (black box) the 223 75 TAP #80265 (red box) and the 5.56X45 BTHP/WC T2 #8126N (red box)
The 8126N besides being loaded to NATO pressure, also uses a redesigned bullet designated as T2. It also uses crimped sealed primers
I have both. I get slightly better accuracy with the 223 but then they are not intended for bullseye shooting. There is also a difference in accuracy between a 1/9 and 1/7 barrels. Some 1/9's MAY not properly stabalize this round, especially in cold weather. So if you have a 1/9 you may want to conduct a test shooting before buying a large quantity of this stuff.
Once again, sorry for the confusion and here is the link

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=283506

[markm]

I bought 3 boxes of 8126N, but now I'm reluctant to shoot much of it because of the price. :eek:

[topraider]

I test fire the different Lot #'s and put the rest away for any real situation that may come up.
If you are a LEO or millitary (active or retired) you can buy it directly from Hornady for about half the price that you would get anywhere else., but you have to buy it by the case ,I believe. A case is 200 rds.

[markm]

I test fire the different Lot #'s and put the rest away for any real situation that may come up.
If you are a LEO or millitary (active or retired) you can buy it directly from Hornady for about half the price that you would get anywhere else., but you have to buy it by the case ,I believe. A case is 200 rds.

I'll check that out!

[bigshooter]

Sorry for the missunderstanding. There has been quite a bit of reserch done on the 3 different 75 grain TAP loads. The 223 75 TAP FPD #80268 (black box) the 223 75 TAP #80265 (red box) and the 5.56X45 BTHP/WC T2 #8126N (red box)
The 8126N besides being loaded to NATO pressure, also uses a redesigned bullet designated as T2. It also uses crimped sealed primers
I have both. I get slightly better accuracy with the 223 but then they are not intended for bullseye shooting. There is also a difference in accuracy between a 1/9 and 1/7 barrels. Some 1/9's MAY not properly stabalize this round, especially in cold weather. So if you have a 1/9 you may want to conduct a test shooting before buying a large quantity of this stuff.
Once again, sorry for the confusion and here is the link

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=283506


right on, thanks for the heads up.

[DarrinD]

I bought 3 boxes of 8126N, but now I'm reluctant to shoot much of it because of the price. :eek:

Me either. I function tested it in my M4 and then loaded it in Mags for when the Zombies attack. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[DarrinD]

Sorry for the missunderstanding. There has been quite a bit of reserch done on the 3 different 75 grain TAP loads. The 223 75 TAP FPD #80268 (black box) the 223 75 TAP #80265 (red box) and the 5.56X45 BTHP/WC T2 #8126N (red box)
The 8126N besides being loaded to NATO pressure, also uses a redesigned bullet designated as T2. It also uses crimped sealed primers
I have both. I get slightly better accuracy with the 223 but then they are not intended for bullseye shooting. There is also a difference in accuracy between a 1/9 and 1/7 barrels. Some 1/9's MAY not properly stabalize this round, especially in cold weather. So if you have a 1/9 you may want to conduct a test shooting before buying a large quantity of this stuff.
Once again, sorry for the confusion and here is the link

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=283506

M4C has THE IP expert on this issue, and I won't speak for him, but I recall the universal opinion was that anything much heavier than 55gr (maybe 65gr) should NOT be used with a a 1 in 9 twist barrel. It can't adequately stablize the weight of a 75gr bullet and accuracy drastically suffers. I have not tested this opinion because I don't own a 1 in 9 twist barrel carbine.

[topraider]

well now, I'm not in any way an expert on this but lets see if I got it right.
[ the M16A1 with its 1/12 barrel twist was custom made for the M193. It was a perfect match. This perfect combination is what made the M193 famous. The M16A2 with its 1/7 barrel twist was introduced at the same time as the M855 62 green tip. The requirement for the 1/7 was not for the weight of the 62 grainer but because of the new extra long tracer round,which I can't remember what it's called at the moment. Stabilization is effected not only by weight, but also the lenght of projectile. The 1/9 will handle anything up to 69 ,performing optimally at about 60-62. Anything above 69 is questionable. The 1/7 is good for 55 and above. Anything much less than 55 could overspin and brk up in flight. Barrel twist is not an exact thing. Some 1/9's may be actual closer to 1/8 and others to 1/10. That's why some 1/9's will stabilize the 75's and others dont. The only way to find out is by going to the range.]

Hornady says that the Tap 60 and the 62br are intended for use in a 1/7-1/12 and perform optimally at 1/9-1/12. The 75, they say intended for use and performs optimally in a 1/7-1/9.
My first carbine was a 1/9 and it stabilized the 75 in warm weather. Never tested it in cold weather, decided to go with the 1/7 and not worry about it.

CORRECTION: Should have said that some 1:9's might be slightly faster such as 1:8.8", others slightly slower such as 1:9.2" rather than closer to 1:8 or 1:10. Sorry if I threw anybody off.

[DarrinD]

I can't find the knowledge based thread on this site to refer to, but will siimply say that the 1 in 12 twist barrel in the M-16 was never a prefect match, nor was it even a good match at any temperature with the M193, or any .223 or 5.56mm bullet for that matter. Most experts and BTDT guys I have read or spoken to say "that match" was one reason that made the AR and then M-16 initially infamous, not famous. And it should go without saying that the military would not split up a perfect match.

[topraider]

Since I started by saying "letts see if I got it right", I should have closed the post by asking this question. Where am I wrong?
As far as what you're saying, I'm not saying that the 1/12 and the M193 was the perfect weapon. What I'm saying is that the 1/12 twist is more suitable for the M193 than the 1/9 or the 1/7 and that's a fact. ( if you want to believe otherwise that's fine with me)
And who says that the M16A1 and the M193 was imfamous. Where were you and these people that you're refering to when the M16A1 and the M193 was being used in South East Asia. I can tell you where I was . Yes there are some that despise the M193 and there is just as many that say it worked great. You struck a nerve with this. I dont give a rats ass about what any post says about. I used it, my life depended on for over a year and it never let me down. And I never herd anyone complain about. And yes I know, you can find plenty of guys that were there that dont care for it.
Initially there were some problems with the system, but they were corrected. It had nothing to do with the twist rate. Uncle sam issued me one them for 20 years so I know something about it. The 1/12 is not my farorite twist rate nor is the M193, but I stand on the other side of the group that says it Infamions.
and really pisses me off. I know my grammer sucks. Who cares.
This will be my last post on this subject since this is starting to look like the ar15.com.

[DarrinD]

topraider,
I have no idea why you're going ape crap. I like and have used XM193 for a long time before I recently decided to switch to 75gr 5.56mm TAP. And XM193 still has an excellent reputation as a 5.56mm cartridge. Many of my mags are loaded with it. So, if my my recitation of what others have said about how the 1 in 12 twist rate could be improved is what incited your rant, I'm sorry for sending you off in a rant directed toward the wrong person. I have been defending 5.56mm and even M193 against the legions of soldier and experts who have been saying it doesn't "hit hard enough" for years - obviously not as long as you, but your post felt like firendly fire, or perhaps firendly carpet bombing. :eek:

[Ned Christiansen]

I've gotten much more familiar with Hornady in the last couple years and it is all good stuff. Any of the 75 grain loadings will do the job-- any job, really. If I had a case of FPD, a case of 5.56 TAP, and a case of Match, and could only find the 5.56 on my way to a High Power match, I would not give it a second thought-- the stuff is wierdly accurate. If I found myself in a gunfight with the Match ammo, again I would be thinking front sight/ trigger control and not be concerned about downrange performance. In all honesty I think if I were Hornady I might consolidate the three and call it TAPFPDMatch :-) ....... there are some difs but boy are they slight, and I'd buy whichever I could get for a few bucks less per case and be good.

About the one and only Hornady product I have not been really impressed with is the steel-cased practice ammo. And it's not about the steel cases, I just have not been able to make it shoot accurately-- but then, it says "practice" and not "Match" on the box. You don't get something for nothing. For 99% of training and practice needs it's adequate-plus.

[markm]

I can't find the knowledge based thread on this site to refer to, but will siimply say that the 1 in 12 twist barrel in the M-16 was never a prefect match, nor was it even a good match at any temperature with the M193, or any .223 or 5.56mm bullet for that matter.


1/12 twist is the optimal rate for M193, and is the optimal twist rate for accuracy from a 55 grain projectile. There was a mil chart posted on ARF years back that showed 1/12 to give the best accuracy. That said, I've had several 1/7s that give me excellent accuracy with 55 grain bullets.

Perfect match? Maybe not... what is perfect? Almost everything is a compromise. But not good? I completely disagree. And so did the Army when they selected a twist rate.

In my opinion, switching from M193 to M855 lessened the effectiveness of the M16/M4 weapon.

[DarrinD]

1/12 twist is the optimal rate for M193, and is the optimal twist rate for accuracy from a 55 grain projectile. There was a mil chart posted on ARF years back that showed 1/12 to give the best accuracy. That said, I've had several 1/7s that give me excellent accuracy with 55 grain bullets.

Perfect match? Maybe not... what is perfect? Almost everything is a compromise. But not good? I completely disagree. And so did the Army when they selected a twist rate.

In my opinion, switching from M193 to M855 lessened the effectiveness of the M16/M4 weapon.

I agree with you on both points. I looked back through my files, and realized I mis-spoke about the early 1 in 12 twist being one of the biggest problems with earlly AR/M-16's when the problem was the switch in powder in the 5.56mm cartridges to a ball powder which is universally blamed as causing problems for M-16's in service in Vietnam from reliability to accuracy problems if the rifle wasn't cleaned frequently, which at first was also impossible because the M-16 was marketed as a low maintenance rifle so no cleaning kits or instructions were included for the G.I.'s until later.

I still don't understand the great benefit the M855 delivers. It's supposed to have a steel core to help in light armor/ballistic vest and helmet penetration? From what I've read it may do that, but at the expense of losing the excellent anti-personnel terminal ballistics of the M193. I suspect, but am not sure, that the M855 is more likely to deliver more "ice pick" wounds than the M193. But, the military is now off to some advanced and very effective bullet designs; too bad that most soldiers have to still load M855, imho.

[topraider]

Came back to the subject just to smooth thing out a bit. First of all, got a little overheated on my last post and that should have not happened.
I'm in total agreement with Demigod. What I said about the twist rate vs bullet weight for the 1-9" and 1-7",as I said, I'm not an expert but I think it's pretty close.
The part about anything much less than 55 gr, could break up in flight if fired from the 1-7", I believe that I read that on arf a while back. I don't know how common that is. Hornady claims that the TAP40U is intended for use in a 1-7"-1-12". So that seems to contradict that theory. Why is Hornady making .223 40 gr bullet for defense/offense, makes no sense to me.
THE INTENT OF BEING HERE WAS JUST TO LET BIGSHOOTER KNOW that if had a 1-9", not to go out an buy a case of the 5.56 TAP without first knowing if it would stabilize properly. Didn't want to get into any of this stuff.
I'm new at this posting bussines and I learned a lesson here.

Lighen up Darrin D, those were blanks that I fired at you and they were propelled with the old dirty powder.

[Iraqgunz]

Topraider,

Who is the POC for this and where did you get the info? Do you just call the customer service number?


I test fire the different Lot #'s and put the rest away for any real situation that may come up.
If you are a LEO or millitary (active or retired) you can buy it directly from Hornady for about half the price that you would get anywhere else., but you have to buy it by the case ,I believe. A case is 200 rds.

[markm]

Topraider,

Who is the POC for this and where did you get the info? Do you just call the customer service number?

I'm sure topraider will PM you... but you have to contact the LE division.

You can have the ammo shipped to my house for safe keep while you're waiting to move here!!! :D I promise to only shoot most of it!

[Pk14]

Kathy McHale, Law Enforcement Division
Hornady Mfg. Co.
800-338-3220 ext. 200



She'll take care of you. They have a waiver form your department / unit needs to sign (you realize this is 5.56 and not .223, therefore Hornady will not take responsibility for any overpressure issue a .223 chambered barrel may provide) and you will need to send in a copy of your .mil or LE ID.

While not quoted a 50% discount for .mil, it was quite generous.

Cheers,
Pk

[Iraqgunz]

The move is complete, so there! And there is no way I would ship ammo to a gun nut. That's like giving crack to an addict. :D


I'm sure topraider will PM you... but you have to contact the LE division.

You can have the ammo shipped to my house for safe keep while you're waiting to move here!!! :D I promise to only shoot most of it!

[Iraqgunz]

Made the call and just got hooked up with a few cases. Wow, what a price difference. Thanks for the tip.