View Full Version : Comparison: DI vs PISTON meltdown.
turnburglar
03-14-16, 22:58
The following test are pretty telling. My personal bias lies with DI, and I feel that the barrel being stainless and a poor profile, is what contributed to the DI failure. Had both trifles had the same barrel, it looks as though the DI would have OUTLASTED the piston gun easily. The DI didn't have a system failure. The op rod moving the carrier did fail. A part that could not fail in a DI gun because it doesn't exist. Needless to say both rifles proved they can handle well beyond what any individual could feed a rifle in a given instance.
DI test
https://youtu.be/BSizVpfqFtw
PISTON test
https://youtu.be/CfZcEjdvx8c
Serious Account
03-14-16, 23:40
I've seen both. Both are interesting videos, especially the piston one. It seems like right now the HK 416 is the ONLY proven piston AR on the market, every other piston ARs out there look like they really want to 'copy' the 416 but fail to live up. I doubt the LMT's piston has anywhere near the amount of testing and development that the 416 has. The 416 was developed at the request of SOF and HK worked very closely with those operators during the 416 R&D. It has really proven itself.
Would very interesting to see how well the 416 perform in that kind of test, but then again it did won the IAR trial.
TheChunkNorris
03-14-16, 23:45
The following test are pretty telling. My personal bias lies with DI, and I feel that the barrel being stainless and a poor profile, is what contributed to the DI failure. Had both trifles had the same barrel, it looks as though the DI would have OUTLASTED the piston gun easily. The DI didn't have a system failure. The op rod moving the carrier did fail. A part that could not fail in a DI gun because it doesn't exist. Needless to say both rifles proved they can handle well beyond what any individual could feed a rifle in a given instance.
DI test
https://youtu.be/BSizVpfqFtw
PISTON test
https://youtu.be/CfZcEjdvx8c
As you said the DI had a barrel failure and the Piston needed an op rod and bolt. It would still shoot but not more than one round in it's current state. Each system as it's advantages and disadvantages but these "torture" tests prove very little.
I've seen both. Both are interesting videos, especially the piston one. It seems like right now the HK 416 is the ONLY proven piston AR on the market, every other piston ARs out there look like they really want to 'copy' the 416 but fail to live up. I doubt the LMT's piston has anywhere near the amount of testing and development that the 416 has. The 416 was developed at the request of SOF and HK worked very closely with those operators during the 416 R&D. It has really proven itself.
Would very interesting to see how well the 416 perform in that kind of test, but then again it did won the IAR trial.
I'm an HK guy and have a MR but the XM8 and SCAR had less stoppages than the 416.
Torquetard
03-15-16, 00:01
Would like to see this done to the PWS system,
Would like to see this done to the PWS system,
I'd love to see a test of a few factory DI guns (a Colt, a BCM, a KAC, a DD and for sh1ts and giggles a DPMS) and several factory piston guns (HK 416, Colt's 6940P, LWRC, PWS MK1whatever, POF) all with same length barrel and same profile/thickness, to make it is apples-to-apples as possible.
But since that ain't happenin' any time soon, I'm gonna stick to DI.
The so-called "piston" upper had an H-Bar barrel. The so-called "DI" upper had a government profile barrel. The H-Bar profile is better at handling heat because of its greater mass where it's needed
TheChunkNorris
03-15-16, 06:00
The so-called "piston" upper had an H-Bar barrel. The so-called "DI" upper had a government profile barrel. The H-Bar profile is better at handling heat because of its greater mass where it's needed
All things being fair he did point that out in the vid.
I'd love to see a test of a few factory DI guns (a Colt, a BCM, a KAC, a DD and for sh1ts and giggles a DPMS) and several factory piston guns (HK 416, Colt's 6940P, LWRC, PWS MK1whatever, POF) all with same length barrel and same profile/thickness, to make it is apples-to-apples as possible.
But since that ain't happenin' any time soon, I'm gonna stick to DI.
I personally think it's dumb and is fodder for the interweb cowboys to talk about. The only time I've ever used more than 4 mags in succession to do anything was to shoot down a helicopter in Call of Duty.
Do you guys shoot your guns to the point of potential melt down?
TheNegativeOne
03-15-16, 07:59
Do you guys shoot your guns to the point of potential melt down?
No which is why I dont subscribe to the "DD, BCM, Colt, KAC only!" BS I hear.
No which is why I dont subscribe to the "DD, BCM, Colt, KAC only!" BS I hear.
The ability to resist meltdown during abuse is not why the AR SMEs recommend those brands to people vs others.
No which is why I dont subscribe to the "DD, BCM, Colt, KAC only!" BS I hear.
You are missing the point....unless you think there is a relevancy between shooting 5000 rounds in an hour and shooting 5000 rounds in a month. In other words, what does a melt down test prove exactly? For actual hard use, those brands you listed have proven themselves.
TheNegativeOne
03-15-16, 08:18
You are missing the point....unless you think there is a relevancy between shooting 5000 rounds in an hour and shooting 5000 rounds in a month. In other words, what does a melt down test prove exactly? For actual hard use, those brands you listed have proven themselves.
Yes they have and there are plenty more who can do the same.
Yes they have and there are plenty more who can do the same.
And your still missing the point. Oh well.
It seems today that if your rifle can't sustain MG42 rate of fire for any period of time then it ain't shit
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
It seems today that if your rifle can't sustain MG42 rate of fire for any period of time then it ain't shit
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Isn't that a great time in which to live? A time where every rifle is made to such high standards only extreme failure tests beyond any reasonable use are the way we can differentiate between upper x and upper y. It's a great time to be a consumer.
Love them or hate them, these "tests" feed the uneducated gun buying masses.
After the MAC VP9 "torture test" I had numerous customers cancel back ordered HK's and put the credit toward something else.
This is both the best and worst part of the current gun culture. It's the best because if we could feed them with truthful, and unbiased information. The industry would see a huge push for higher quality products.
It's the worst because any idiot with a camera can give their "expert" opinion on a product that they truly know nothing about.
Yes they have and there are plenty more who can do the same.
What else would you recommend?
All things being fair he did point that out in the vid...
He did and that's how I knew what profile was used. I pointed that out to show that, when it comes to controlling heat, barrel profile is important, not whether it's a "piston" or "DI" upper
Eurodriver
03-15-16, 13:34
What else would you recommend?
Read through his post history. He is a troll. I've reported him numerous times.
Yes they have and there are plenty more who can do the same.
As someone who had a Bushmaster as a duty gun I can tell you for certain that there is indeed a big difference between the top brands and the others.
TheChunkNorris
03-15-16, 14:46
Love them or hate them, these "tests" feed the uneducated gun buying masses.
After the MAC VP9 "torture test" I had numerous customers cancel back ordered HK's and put the credit toward something else.
This is both the best and worst part of the current gun culture. It's the best because if we could feed them with truthful, and unbiased information. The industry would see a huge push for higher quality products.
It's the worst because any idiot with a camera can give their "expert" opinion on a product that they truly know nothing about.
It amazes me... there's vids of other manufactures like Glock failing under the same circumstances yet there's a deep hatred for HK that I've never been able to understand. 1st the complaint was it's too expensive... the prices have steadily come down. 2nd was HK doesn't have any striker fired pistols on their line... come the VP9. 3rd complaint now is it doesn't shoot after being submerged in water... No shit and a lot of striker fired pistols fail under the same circumstance.
He did and that's how I knew what profile was used. I pointed that out to show that, when it comes to controlling heat, barrel profile is important, not whether it's a "piston" or "DI" upper
Yes you're right. I'm just puzzled to why they used LMT vs some other companies out there... when I think piston the big three are HK, LWRC and POF. The OP rods on the 3 listed are stout compared to the LMT in the vid especially the POF.
leibermuster
03-15-16, 17:34
It amazes me... there's vids of other manufactures like Glock failing under the same circumstances yet there's a deep hatred for HK that I've never been able to understand. 1st the complaint was it's too expensive... the prices have steadily come down. 2nd was HK doesn't have any striker fired pistols on their line... come the VP9. 3rd complaint now is it doesn't shoot after being submerged in water... No shit and a lot of striker fired pistols fail under the same circumstance.
.
It was the stupid myth perpetuated by the "HK. Because You suck And we hate you" Nonsense that hundreds of thousand if not millions of idiots bought into that had zero merit. Even a quick Google search would disprove most of the points made in that article. Unfortunately stupid seems to win a lot these days, you still have suppose gun experts perpetuating that crap today.
On a side note during the famous test in regards to M4 replacement trials the HK416 failure were all on 1 particular magazine mostly. So the Scar and XM8 were very comparable, but you could always say the basic M4 car was a lighter profile anyway and the magazine they were using apparently were not up to spec, so this was another factor. Clearly a HK416 would of handled higher rates of fire compared to the lighter M4 carbine but what do you need that in most situations anyways.
The HK416 was built more for durability in use of higher rates of fire, suppressed, FA etc etc where the M4 was built to be a lightweight carbine.
As for the other Piston systems out there, the main reasons I wouldn't jump on any of them is because God knows if they will be around in another 15 years from now to get spare parts where the HK416/417 line is more available everyday as big armies are buying them all the time. LMT did get a few contracts of considerable note if memory serves me so that would be a company I would look at if HK is not your cup of tea.
But for Piston HK is the only one to me that is worth a dam. Besides that I like my Colts,KAC,DD,LMT,BCM, FN(the forgotten Giant) and of course everyone's favorite Bushmaster(2002 version I still own)..lol..
TacticalTyler
03-15-16, 20:05
Back on track, before it turns into "hk vs the world" thread lol. Honestly I saw his other videos before plus this one.
If you watch the guys whole channel he's very biased against DI. He's a big ak guy, plus a big mosin guy. So I could see how he merits the piston a lot. He try's to play both sides, but his test his pretty stupid. Especially when you use two different types of barrel profiles.
I'm not into melt down tests at all, it just proves somethin we already know. Standard carbines or rifles are not meant to be used as crew served machine guns.
It's like testing how accurate a 7 in sub gun can be at 300 yards.
We all know it's pointless.
It was the stupid myth perpetuated by the "HK. Because You suck And we hate you" Nonsense that hundreds of thousand if not millions of idiots bought into that had zero merit. Even a quick Google search would disprove most of the points made in that article. Unfortunately stupid seems to win a lot these days, you still have suppose gun experts perpetuating that crap today.
On a side note during the famous test in regards to M4 replacement trials the HK416 failure were all on 1 particular magazine mostly. So the Scar and XM8 were very comparable, but you could always say the basic M4 car was a lighter profile anyway and the magazine they were using apparently were not up to spec, so this was another factor. Clearly a HK416 would of handled higher rates of fire compared to the lighter M4 carbine but what do you need that in most situations anyways.
The HK416 was built more for durability in use of higher rates of fire, suppressed, FA etc etc where the M4 was built to be a lightweight carbine.
As for the other Piston systems out there, the main reasons I wouldn't jump on any of them is because God knows if they will be around in another 15 years from now to get spare parts where the HK416/417 line is more available everyday as big armies are buying them all the time. LMT did get a few contracts of considerable note if memory serves me so that would be a company I would look at if HK is not your cup of tea.
But for Piston HK is the only one to me that is worth a dam. Besides that I like my Colts,KAC,DD,LMT,BCM, FN(the forgotten Giant) and of course everyone's favorite Bushmaster(2002 version I still own)..lol..
Let's not hate on HK. Many people forget (or never knew in the first place) that HK stood up for people's right to own scary-looking rifles
http://www.vuurwapenblog.com/general-opinion/lies-errors-and-omissions/sporting-purposes-how-hk-really-does-not-suck-or-hate-you/
and is at the mercy of its country's absurd export laws
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/09/02/hk-hate-you-import-export-laws-vs-people/
Back on track, before it turns into "hk vs the world" thread lol. Honestly I saw his other videos before plus this one.
If you watch the guys whole channel he's very biased against DI. He's a big ak guy, plus a big mosin guy. So I could see how he merits the piston a lot. He try's to play both sides, but his test his pretty stupid. Especially when you use two different types of barrel profiles.
I'm not into melt down tests at all, it just proves somethin we already know. Standard carbines or rifles are not meant to be used as crew served machine guns.
It's like testing how accurate a 7 in sub gun can be at 300 yards.
We all know it's pointless.
IraqVeteran8888 is a good channel. It has entertaining and informative vids. They're not fanboys of any one thing or another. I'm a subscriber, and not ashamed of it.
Test should be repeated with a LMT MRP standard (non-piston) barrel.
TacticalTyler
03-16-16, 06:29
I'm not saying it's a bad channel, because I really dig the sbr suppressed mosin they built, but IMO he leans more on the soviet side of things. He tries to play both sides but I just don't buy it. If you watch the melt down video he really talks up the piston an is always very detailed about it, where DI he doesn't show no where near as much love.
To me, he seems more adamant about AK operated anything
He is biased towards AKs and pistons, no doubt about that.
Apples to oranges tests, these and the AK ones. There isn't much consistency with mag change times and he uses different capacity mags throughout.
The LMT has a "medium" contour barrel and the other had a "Govt" contour barrel. I would put money on a DI LMT upper lasting longer than the piston version did. If your purpose was to build an AR upper that would last as long as possible you would use a chrome lined HBAR with an Inconel gas tube and a heavy hand guard. Anyone want to buy in?
After the MAC VP9 "torture test" I had numerous customers cancel back ordered HK's and put the credit toward something else.
Well... i did see this one on the internet yesterday, I believe it failed after getting wet...
http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq169/bbossman1/0445c62a20df36e8503e572a2c62684f_zpsqxi5kzza.jpg
Well... i did see this one on the internet yesterday, I believe it failed after getting wet...
http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq169/bbossman1/0445c62a20df36e8503e572a2c62684f_zpsqxi5kzza.jpg
Not sure of you're poking fun or pointing fingers.
The post I started about the VP40 was simply to see what people thought, and share an interesting issue that was brought into my store. The post was something that happened in real life not some ridiculous shoot till failure test. If there is an actual issue with the HK I'm sure the factory will let me know and I'll update the thread.
If you're poking fun, whoever took that picture is obviously very good looking and intelligent![emoji12]
Not sure of you're poking fun or pointing fingers.
The post I started about the VP40 was simply to see what people thought, and share an interesting issue that was brought into my store. The post was something that happened in real life not some ridiculous shoot till failure test. If there is an actual issue with the HK I'm sure the factory will let me know and I'll update the thread.
If you're poking fun, whoever took that picture is obviously very good looking and intelligent![emoji12]
Poking fun... :laugh:
TacticalTyler
03-16-16, 10:56
He is biased towards AKs and pistons, no doubt about that.
Apples to oranges tests, these and the AK ones. There isn't much consistency with mag change times and he uses different capacity mags throughout.
The LMT has a "medium" contour barrel and the other had a "Govt" contour barrel. I would put money on a DI LMT upper lasting longer than the piston version did. If your purpose was to build an AR upper that would last as long as possible you would use a chrome lined HBAR with an Inconel gas tube and a heavy hand guard. Anyone want to buy in?
Agreed , I would like see a round count on a heavy barrel DI AR just for shits an grins. I bet colt socom barrel would hold up pretty well too.
Poking fun... [emoji23]
Gotcha, can't read inflection through text haha
I'm not saying it's a bad channel, because I really dig the sbr suppressed mosin they built, but IMO he leans more on the soviet side of things. He tries to play both sides but I just don't buy it. If you watch the melt down video he really talks up the piston an is always very detailed about it, where DI he doesn't show no where near as much love.
To me, he seems more adamant about AK operated anything
He's done AK meltdowns too, which went less rounds than the AR, if I recall correctly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwSJiAwoMpY
Other one is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlL-uRkJ0yA
dylank0723
03-16-16, 16:33
He's done AK meltdowns too, which went less rounds than the AR, if I recall correctly.
The Wasr did horrible. The vepr might have gone a little more than the AR
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
TacticalTyler
03-16-16, 20:13
He's done AK meltdowns too, which went less rounds than the AR, if I recall correctly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwSJiAwoMpY
Other one is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlL-uRkJ0yA
I know I watched all his videos , that still doesn't change the fact he's more biased to the ak.
Matter of fact in those videos , he used a cheap wasr which ran like shit an he just had to do another video to prove the ak is reliable.
Where he only did one video of a DI melt down , an he didn't even use a high quality brand either.
I know I watched all his videos , that still doesn't change the fact he's more biased to the ak.
Matter of fact in those videos , he used a cheap wasr which ran like shit an he just had to do another video to prove the ak is reliable.
Where he only did one video of a DI melt down , an he didn't even use a high quality brand either.
Yes, but he also acknowledged that the DI failed at the barrel, and not the operating system, and the barrel only failed at the step cut (where the profile is thinnest).
He has stated that he personally likes AKs, but none of his vids are slagging DI ARs, or lavishly praising piston ARs.
I think he's pretty balanced.
I would really like to see some .308 ARs get tested hard, both DI and piston, just out of interest and for sh1ts and giggles.
Cheeses Rice. These sample of one "torture" test videos are highly entertaining, not only in content but especially in reaction. Seems when folks favorite gun/operating system/accessory/etc. fairs well its the greatest video EVER! But when something fails, well then folks want to point out that the sun was setting/the sun was rising, if it had more XYZ, different lot of ammo, what a waste, etc...
Why not sit back and just enjoy watching somebody destroy something you didn't pay for? Or stick to the "unboxing" videos.
Cheeses Rice. These sample of one "torture" test videos are highly entertaining, not only in content but especially in reaction. Seems when folks favorite gun/operating system/accessory/etc. fairs well its the greatest video EVER! But when something fails, well then folks want to point out that the sun was setting/the sun was rising, if it had more XYZ, different lot of ammo, what a waste, etc...
Why not sit back and just enjoy watching somebody destroy something you didn't pay for? Or stick to the "unboxing" videos.
Thank you for saying this.
He should have done this, he should have done that is all I'm reading. I'm sure he would do any test anyone wants to see if you send him the weapon of choice and ammo.
He's done AK meltdowns too, which went less rounds than the AR, if I recall correctly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwSJiAwoMpY
That reminds me of an interview posted a while back with the owner of a big gun range that rented all manner of guns with extremely high rnd counts put through ARs and AKs and he said far and away the AKs required more upkeep in less rnds than ARs and he named brands and so forth. Anyone remember that? It's not science, but neither is anything being posted in this thread ether.
That reminds me of an interview posted a while back with the owner of a big gun range that rented all manner of guns with extremely high rnd counts put through ARs and AKs and he said far and away the AKs required more upkeep in less rnds than ARs and he named brands and so forth. Anyone remember that? It's not science, but neither is anything being posted in this thread ether.
I know the thread you're talking about, they rented a lot of different platforms and it was interesting which ones required the least amount of repair/upkeep.
They had several brands of AKs and their WASR was the most reliable. And yea, I remember that the ARs seemed to require less upkeep per round count than a lot of other platforms. Maybe ammo related, most AKs are burning cheap steel ammo which is dirty.
I've got two AKs and five ARs, I've never noticed one being noticeably less reliable than the other. Most malfunctions were ammo or magazine related. I always enjoy the 'torture test' videos but don't hold a lot of stock in them because they don't reflect how I operate mine.
As for piston vs DI, I understand that piston setups keep heat n crud away from your BCG but seems in almost all of the 'torture' videos the barrel is the fail point. So an HBAR is probably your best investment if you plan to do excessive mag dumps.
The owner of the range kept logs, had a larger sample size, he made changes to see whether different specific parts would increase the maintenance cycle, and he at least claimed the maintenance cycles were somewhat predictable. It's empirical, I'd call that scientific.
While fun, the meltdown tests just show... at a certain round count, something gets hot enough to fail. It's fun at first.
But I get it. Some steel turns into a wet noodle after 800 rounds or so.
As for piston vs DI, I understand that piston setups keep heat n crud away from your BCG but seems in almost all of the 'torture' videos the barrel is the fail point. So an HBAR is probably your best investment if you plan to do excessive mag dumps.
The Piston vs DI heat thing is overblown. Ive dumped 3x30 mags as fast as I could in a 10" DI full auto and with an IR temp gun the hottest part of the bcg was barely 102 degrees, while the barrel was over 450 degrees.
The owner of the range kept logs, had a larger sample size, he made changes to see whether different specific parts would increase the maintenance cycle, and he at least claimed the maintenance cycles were somewhat predictable. It's empirical, I'd call that scientific.
At least far more so than some vid where a singe pistol dropped in the mud stops working, but I digress...
While fun, the meltdown tests just show... at a certain round count, something gets hot enough to fail. It's fun at first.
But I get it. Some steel turns into a wet noodle after 800 rounds or so.
If people can fathom how to keep such things in context, it's all good and fun. However, understanding context seems the rarest of abilities. I'm not an SME on this topic by any means, but dealing with folks unable to understand context is something I'm well versed in that's for sure. Like the study showing the human equivalent of 10k cans of diet soda per day caused cancer in 1:10,000 rats making people freak out about the 2 cans per week they drink and so forth.
If people can fathom how to keep such things in context, it's all good and fun. However, understanding context seems the rarest of abilities. I'm not an SME on this topic by any means, but dealing with folks unable to understand context is something I'm well versed in that's for sure. Like the study showing the human equivalent of 10k cans of diet soda per day caused cancer in 1:10,000 rats making people freak out about the 2 cans per week they drink and so forth.
Piston guns run cooler, therefore DI guns cause global warming
If people can fathom how to keep such things in context, it's all good and fun. However, understanding context seems the rarest of abilities. I'm not an SME on this topic by any means, but dealing with folks unable to understand context is something I'm well versed in that's for sure. Like the study showing the human equivalent of 10k cans of diet soda per day caused cancer in 1:10,000 rats making people freak out about the 2 cans per week they drink and so forth.
So wait... are you saying I should avoid rats drowned in diet soda and that will prevent cancer?
Primus Pilum
03-17-16, 18:08
Not sure of you're poking fun or pointing fingers.
The post I started about the VP40 was simply to see what people thought, and share an interesting issue that was brought into my store. The post was something that happened in real life not some ridiculous shoot till failure test. If there is an actual issue with the HK I'm sure the factory will let me know and I'll update the thread.
If you're poking fun, whoever took that picture is obviously very good looking and intelligent![emoji12]
Looks like my theory has already been proved from "that" thread.
This is why I hate youtube "gun personalities". If you run any mechanical device past its threshold it will shit and die.
One guy will likely never be the deciding factor that he alone, magdumping beta mag after betamag on the same rifle in winning the day.
Even beltfeds can croak. Seriously, if you're in like that bad of a situation then
A) There will likely be extra rifles laying around for you to use
B) You didn't plan very well ahead
C) We're at C and still no arty/air strike/guys rolling in pumped and ready to get some? Thanks for proving B for me.
D) You're most likely going to be seriously injured and killed anyway.
So while it gets views to watch a guy take a crap on a gun and do a "drill" or guys try to one up Israeli levels of neglect abuse and then declare Brand X"not combatworthy"....then it bespeaks more of the youtube guy than the gun.
I've personally seen a DPMS croak just because it wasn't well made and personally own an SP1 that still sees some range days and works because it was put together right.
It's worse than the old days when some dude would bitch about Series 70 Colts and then sing the praises of a Fabriggio Firestorm
Berserkr556
03-17-16, 19:56
That reminds me of an interview posted a while back with the owner of a big gun range that rented all manner of guns with extremely high rnd counts put through ARs and AKs and he said far and away the AKs required more upkeep in less rnds than ARs and he named brands and so forth. Anyone remember that? It's not science, but neither is anything being posted in this thread ether.
The business is Battlefield Vegas IIRC. I was there once while in Vegas for SHOT. According to their detailed logs a stamped AK would run 80,000 to 100,000 rounds and then the trunnion would crack putting the rifle out of service. Before this round count they would change barrels and bolts. They said it didn't matter what country the AK was from they all failed in the same place at the same round count range. What made me smile was they had M4s with 200,000 rounds on the upper & lower receivers. They would change all the parts and keep chugging along.
As for these youtube tests they're entertainment at best. All my ARs have an internal piston, the bolt tail. If I want to run a piston gun I'll grab one of my FALs or an AK. I prefer my ARs just the way Stoner, Sullivan and Fremont designed them.
One of the reasons the 416 was down selected as the M27 was it ability to shoot a 600 round UBL at a rate of 36 RPMs at 120 degree ambient tempature without a cook off.
The business is Battlefield Vegas IIRC. I was there once while in Vegas for SHOT. According to their detailed logs a stamped AK would run 80,000 to 100,000 rounds and then the trunnion would crack putting the rifle out of service. Before this round count they would change barrels and bolts. They said it didn't matter what country the AK was from they all failed in the same place at the same round count range. What made me smile was they had M4s with 200,000 rounds on the upper & lower receivers. They would change all the parts and keep chugging along.
As for these youtube tests they're entertainment at best. All my ARs have an internal piston, the bolt tail. If I want to run a piston gun I'll grab one of my FALs or an AK. I prefer my ARs just the way Stoner, Sullivan and Fremont designed them.
Ditto to that.
gunrunner505
03-21-16, 01:16
So what we've discovered is if you take a mechanical device designed and built by imperfect carbon units and operate it in a fashion inconsistent with its design limits it will at some point fail.
And now back to our regularly scheduled programming.
There is a pretty thick line between running a gun hard and abuse.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So what we've discovered is if you take a mechanical device designed and built by imperfect carbon units and operate it in a fashion inconsistent with its design limits it will at some point fail.
And now back to our regularly scheduled programming.
There is a pretty thick line between running a gun hard and abuse.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So running a car at max RPM until it blows up isn't the same as long term reliability reports?
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-26-16, 15:58
RISE THREAD! RISE!
I really wish we could get this guy to test a COLT OEM/6920 upper. Theoretically it should be the same but I suspect the Colt would run a bit longer (I could be biased). I wish he would run this and a Russian AK both without hand guards. I really don't care if the hand guards would melt. I want to see what part of the system fails first. His VEPR tests are interesting, but not really a good baseline for and AK given it isn't really an AK.
I know this is heresy but I have not been super impressed with the durability of the AKs I have seen on the US market. A friend of mine who is a big AK guy has had a lot of dinky problems (parts flying off, gas tube latch breaking, etc). None of it junked the rifle, but it just seems like the guns aren't put together for a lot of actual shooting. I have a nice WASR-10 I hand picked when I got back into AKs and it runs great. I got out of them years ago when my GP rifle was just a real POS. I used to be able to find Hungarian thumbhole AKs and they were freaking awesome, but that was a while back.
Coal Dragger
11-26-16, 16:07
I'd like to see him test a Colt with the M4A1 contour barrel. Seeing as how it was specifically adopted to "fix" the problem of barrel failure from prolonged use of full auto fire.
I was sitting here contemplating a witty zombie, dead horse thread response only to find a much respected moderator did it knowingly!
I like pistons, less heat, don't shit where they eat!
Coal Dragger
11-26-16, 17:15
I have to admit I'm kind of interested in the new CZ 805/806 Bren carbine. Mostly because it is a piston gun for reasonable money that was designed from the get go as a piston gun by FN... and then shamelessly copied and refined a bit by CZ.
I like pistons, less heat, don't shit where they eat!
:jester:
I'd like to see him test a Colt with the M4A1 contour barrel. Seeing as how it was specifically adopted to "fix" the problem of barrel failure from prolonged use of full auto fire.
Here's an M4 and an M4A1 fired on full auto untill they fail.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P9uny8aCoLc
Coal Dragger
11-27-16, 17:12
Thanks.
Seems to me other parts will fail prior to either system and in any event will last longer than any of us would in a firefight that intense.
Seems to me other parts will fail prior to either system and in any event will last longer than any of us would in a firefight that intense.
Sums it up. There are rifles, and there are belt fed machine guns. Anything in between is a compromise, and if you try to use one as the other, there will be dissapointments.
TheChunkNorris
12-08-16, 02:22
I have to admit I'm kind of interested in the new CZ 805/806 Bren carbine. Mostly because it is a piston gun for reasonable money that was designed from the get go as a piston gun by FN... and then shamelessly copied and refined a bit by CZ.
FN shamelessly borrowed much of the G36 piston system which borrowed much from the AR18.
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