View Full Version : Buying Closed Gas Station
I've had my eye on a small corner gas station for over a decade, it closed about 5 years ago and has just been listed for auction.
I want it for a non-business reason, kind of a fancy garage/man cave.
Could any of you suggest where I could look to see what liability - if any - I'd have for the underground tanks?
Thanks.
Not knowing the jurisdiction, its hard for me to say.
I designed a Cap One bank which was placed on a site of a formal gas station. The tanks had to be removed (removed by land owner - Cap One leased the land) The soil also contained residual petrochemical contaminants. We chose to encapsulate. We used GeoSeal 3-part vapor barrier as well as an under-slab passive ventilation system. This consisted of perforated pvc pipe in a gravel bed running under the slab in a lattice pattern, combining into a collector pipe and exhausting out through the slab on the side of the building. We also had to install test wells for the DEP to check on a regular basis to ensure the the ventilation system was working and there was no build up of harmful vapors. This was a lot easier than replacing all the soil on the site nearly 20 feet deep.
NJ DEP has very specific regulations regarding dealing with contaminated soil, I am sure your local authority does as well. If there were tanks there, 99% there is contamination. Tanks always leak, just a matter of when, not if.
I recently did a project on a site which is one of the worst contaminated in NJ. When I called the NJ DEP to discuss the project the knew the site and it went from a 1 on 1 phone call to a 8 person conference call quickly. I proposed the same system, they approved. It was installed and seems to be doing well.
I'd definitely check with the EPA concerning the tanks. IIRC, the rules changed some years back and many stations had to rid themselves of their underground fuel tanks and install newer ones with monitoring systems if they wanted to stay in business. The older stations that were no longer in business had to remove their underground tanks and have the holes filled in. As stated above, contamination of the soil brings its own headaches. Should be easy to find something in a search.
Outlander Systems
03-18-16, 16:34
I would consult with an environmental engineer to determine soil toxicity, etc.
This...is an interesting topic. I've seen an old gas station converted into a small AME church. They just kept the ports. No idea about the tanks or legality/liability. Maybe just fill em with concrete if you can't/won't use them.
Provided you had Mr. Pibb on tap, I would gladly buy a day pass to 26's 'Cool Cat Lounge'
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-18-16, 17:00
Why not something not on a corner and without the enviro hazzard? I would think that there is little infrastructure left in the building and it would be easier to build than to renovate? What am I missing?
Plus, you'll have people coming in and asking for directions, food, to use your bathroom, fix their car- even rob it.
Have the seller include the building/planning/zoning department permit approval for what you want to do with it as part of the sale. There may be a reason it's been sitting for five years.
Outlander Systems
03-18-16, 17:39
If it's in Fulton County, Georgia, you can simply bribe the planning/zoning staff with expensive booze, or by providing a wedding venue for their children.
True story, bro.
Have the seller include the building/planning/zoning department permit approval for what you want to do with it as part of the sale. There may be a reason it's been sitting for five years.
AnthonyCumia
03-18-16, 17:42
I've had my eye on a small corner gas station for over a decade, it closed about 5 years ago and has just been listed for auction.
I want it for a non-business reason, kind of a fancy garage/man cave.
Could any of you suggest where I could look to see what liability - if any - I'd have for the underground tanks?
Thanks.
All the other guys are right, EPA/Soil issues are the most dire thing you would have to worry about.
If you do buy it and fix it we expect photos.
Why not something not on a corner and without the enviro hazzard? I would think that there is little infrastructure left in the building and it would be easier to build than to renovate? What am I missing?
Plus, you'll have people coming in and asking for directions, food, to use your bathroom, fix their car- even rob it.
It is an older square panel building, trips my trigger. It was open as a small convenience store/station up to 5 years ago. Repaint the old standard colors and striping - faded but still visible.
I plan to park the vehicles I rarely drive in the bays, use the rest for a man cave to have garage nights with my buds, maybe run the lift about 3 feet up and use it as the base for a slot car track.
No business plans - although that was my first interest - my wife has disabused me of the idea. If you guys saw a sign that said 'Dogs Collars and Bones' with a smiling guy holding a root beer mug, what would you think it meant? Wife said no one would get it, they'd think it was a pet store. She didn't like my them song for the ads either - 'Dinner ain't for nothing, and the drinks are free.' I was going to get Dire Straits to play the opening. No fvcking vision. I told her she was the reason I don't light the grill with $100.00 bills and was still on my second trophy wife.
Any how I called the state department of health and environment - apparently it is the one department our moron of a Governor hasn't shutdown. They don't want those tanks in the ground so they give fairly good incentive to get them out.
donlapalma
03-18-16, 17:58
Check with your local city, county and state regulatory authorities. You will want to be crystal clear about who will remain responsible for any environmental and remediation liabilities which typically stay on the books for decades. In fact, if you really do go forward with this make certain that you are indemnified for any past, present or future claims related to the underground tanks. Good luck man...would love to log-on one day and see your new pimp daddy man cave.
Primus Pilum
03-18-16, 18:13
My Uncle used to own a company that does this (environmental inspections, tank removal, specialized on petro infrastructure). I worked with him during the summers in college and between deployments doing inspections, removing tanks, doing cleanups, enviromental assesments ect.
On the surface, sounds like a very bad idea. Most sites are heavy contaminated and would costs a boat load (think hundreds of K's) to do basic remediation to the point where the site could be used for something else again. There is a reason most of these abandoned gas stations are still sitting there rotting, unless the land/location is so valuable its worth the cost of remediation.
The records from the country/state/ State environmental agency are 90% likely to be wrong, and there are probably old tanks or other junk buried that no one knows about. The soil is almost certainly contaminated. You can and will be held liable for seepage and contamination of adjoining properties.
Unless the current owners are willing to foot the entire bill for cleanup/remediation, With sign off from your state agencies with them indemnifying you for any future discoveries, you are asking for a nightmare. Better off buying a small piece of land and having a garage built.
P.S. It was great getting paid $3K a day to sit on a lawn chair and watch guys excavate tanks because they needed a licenced consultant on site for any ground work. My cut was about a 1/3 of that, which for a poor college student/soldier, was a dream job.
Yeah but will there be Mr. Pibbs?
In Las Vegas, New Mexico, there was a vacant corner gas station up for sale at $106,000. Potential owners wanted to use the lot for an office building. The old tanks were in the ground and the estimated cost of removing them and the environmental cleanup was estimated at over $350,000. That gas station still sits on that corner with no activity.
thebarracuda
03-18-16, 18:26
If it were in Illinois, Id say run, don't walk away from that property. EPA, last people you want to deal with here. Underground fuel tanks get expensive quick. Been down this road on a property like you are describing.
The state Dept of Environmental Management will be a good place to start. Could also check with a local environmental engineer. Different states probably have different procedures.
You could store/hide a lot of ammo in those tanks. Just sayin',:p
titsonritz
03-18-16, 18:49
There are a lot of factors, are the tanks ancient single wall steel, plassteel or double wall FRP with a annular space monitor? Does it have above ground pumps or submersible pumps with dispensers? Is there a monitoring well? What is the location and zoning? If you have no idea of what I'm talking about than run away.
Eurodriver
03-18-16, 18:59
If you have a wife/daughter, they can buy it and the government will foot some of the bill to restore the land as it was in the name of diversity.
Can't imagine how many contaminates were absorbed into the ground after decades of pumping fuel and changing oil there. Doesn't sound like a healthy environment to hang out in.
Can't imagine how many contaminates were absorbed into the ground after decades of pumping fuel and changing oil there. Doesn't sound like a healthy environment to hang out in.
I've never smoked, just the same as a nondrinker, ran and worked out everyday for nearly forty years, I'll take a chance, something has to get me.
Seriously, I called the KDHE, they want those tanks out of there. They told me there were three 6,000 gallon tanks on site and that what I need to do is get three estimates for removal - I'm on the hook for 10% they have a fund to pay the rest. He said that in most cases he'd guess about $2,500.00. When they get them out, if there is leakage I'll pay an additional $5,000 to be included in the leaking tank group (forgot what he called it) and they will pay up to a million for cleanup.
Going to explore further.
ETA: Reason it was closed - very small, two bays, plus an area for a tire machine, small office/sales area. This was the next to the last full serve station in town, two pumps on the island. The original owner sold it to an immigrant who owned another convenience store. Story is he closed it when he and his wife split up. A year ago he got caught selling drugs and is doing some time. I've been waiting for it to come up on the block. I have enough set back to pay what I'm willing at the auction, I've never bid on real estate before so I'm going to talk to an auctioneer I know and one of my buds that owns several businesses.
Sounds similar to the way these properties are handled in my state as well.
Not knowing the jurisdiction, its hard for me to say.
I designed a Cap One bank which was placed on a site of a formal gas station. The tanks had to be removed (removed by land owner - Cap One leased the land) The soil also contained residual petrochemical contaminants. We chose to encapsulate. We used GeoSeal 3-part vapor barrier as well as an under-slab passive ventilation system. This consisted of perforated pvc pipe in a gravel bed running under the slab in a lattice pattern, combining into a collector pipe and exhausting out through the slab on the side of the building. We also had to install test wells for the DEP to check on a regular basis to ensure the the ventilation system was working and there was no build up of harmful vapors. This was a lot easier than replacing all the soil on the site nearly 20 feet deep.
NJ DEP has very specific regulations regarding dealing with contaminated soil, I am sure your local authority does as well. If there were tanks there, 99% there is contamination. Tanks always leak, just a matter of when, not if.
I recently did a project on a site which is one of the worst contaminated in NJ. When I called the NJ DEP to discuss the project the knew the site and it went from a 1 on 1 phone call to a 8 person conference call quickly. I proposed the same system, they approved. It was installed and seems to be doing well.
I would say Jersey is weird about that, except I have not a clue about other states.
Random story, but true.
The old man, used to run a rental center with a set of gas pumps in Jersey. One of the tanks started to leak, he reports it up the chain, about a month later something gets done. They ended up having to drain the tank, dig it up, and all the contaminated dirt had to be removed, off site, to be disposed of, or cleaned, ect (Not quite sure I was young at the time and preferred to play in the bone yard out back of all the jacked up, ****ed up, burned out, and wrecked trucks that the company owned). Anyway, there was a literal mountain of dirt that no one could, or wanted to, go near because it was supposed to be aired out and then removed. Took months and I don't want to know the cost. When others talk about literal hundred of thousands of dollars in cost to fix they are not lying.
Now, there is also the flip side that, from my limited understanding, and I could be wrong, since i am running off of secondhand info and it is dated, that there is a difference if one was to be renting or leasing a site for a similar purpose that clean up might not be as necessary, at least not to the same degree. Of course that come from chatting with guys who were sups at a factory where the family who owned the site of the factory leased it to another company for the same products because, as it was explained to me, it was cheaper to run it at a loss of 1 million or something like that a year for a century then try to clean it up. Basically the place would be a super site, if they were to close down. Considering I know people who worked there back in the heyday, and I know what they used to do, and how they disposed, or didn't, of chemicals, and the fact that nothing grows on the grounds, I kind of believe it to a degree.
SilverBullet432
03-18-16, 22:23
Id do it.
titsonritz
03-18-16, 23:02
Seriously, I called the KDHE, they want those tanks out of there. They told me there were three 6,000 gallon tanks on site and that what I need to do is get three estimates for removal - I'm on the hook for 10% they have a fund to pay the rest. He said that in most cases he'd guess about $2,500.00. When they get them out, if there is leakage I'll pay an additional $5,000 to be included in the leaking tank group (forgot what he called it) and they will pay up to a million for cleanup.
Get that in writing first.
I used to work for an outfit call Robert H. Lee and Associates (have since been bought up by STANTEC), they specialized in service stations and I have worked on about 200+ Chevron stations, believe me when I tell you it can be a massive nightmare depending the jurisdiction you are dealing with. Now if the city, county or state you are dealing with are willing to foot a huge portion of the bill for the potential HAZMAT DCON that changes things quite a bit. Just be sure there is a $$$ ceiling for you and as I said, get it in writing.
titsonritz
03-18-16, 23:14
They told me there were three 6,000 gallon tanks on site
Do you know what kind of tanks?
I would say Jersey is weird about that, except I have not a clue about other states.
Random story, but true.
The old man, used to run a rental center with a set of gas pumps in Jersey. One of the tanks started to leak, he reports it up the chain, about a month later something gets done. They ended up having to drain the tank, dig it up, and all the contaminated dirt had to be removed, off site, to be disposed of, or cleaned, ect (Not quite sure I was young at the time and preferred to play in the bone yard out back of all the jacked up, ****ed up, burned out, and wrecked trucks that the company owned). Anyway, there was a literal mountain of dirt that no one could, or wanted to, go near because it was supposed to be aired out and then removed. Took months and I don't want to know the cost. When others talk about literal hundred of thousands of dollars in cost to fix they are not lying.
Now, there is also the flip side that, from my limited understanding, and I could be wrong, since i am running off of secondhand info and it is dated, that there is a difference if one was to be renting or leasing a site for a similar purpose that clean up might not be as necessary, at least not to the same degree. Of course that come from chatting with guys who were sups at a factory where the family who owned the site of the factory leased it to another company for the same products because, as it was explained to me, it was cheaper to run it at a loss of 1 million or something like that a year for a century then try to clean it up. Basically the place would be a super site, if they were to close down. Considering I know people who worked there back in the heyday, and I know what they used to do, and how they disposed, or didn't, of chemicals, and the fact that nothing grows on the grounds, I kind of believe it to a degree.
If a building is to be occupied by people, the soil be low it need to be either remediated or incapsulated.
The second building in my story is actually a soil remediation plant that I designed. The are liquefying the soil, pumping the slurry into the building, cleaning it and pumping back to the site. The site will eventually be a Cogeneration plant, in the meantime, this building will be operating for 25 years to clean up the site. In the meantime, I had to provide enough protection under the slab to ensure that no one working inside would be exposed to the crap in the soil. The site used to be a Sherwin Williams factory, before that they made something for the war effort during WW2. This site has some of the highest levels of really nasty stuff in NJ and that says a lot since NJ has more superfund sights that any other state. There is even radiological contaminants in the soil and the DEP was cool with incapacitation and venting. Might work for the fast station the OP is looking at but that is only if he razes the building and starts a new.
Check out GeoSeal and LiquidBoot. Their 60min, 3 part vapor barriers stop "everything"
DO NOT BUY A GAS STATION!! Especially if it has been out of service for 5 years. An EPA phase III environmental survey and soil report is mandatory!!!! It has to be current and you provide copy for city, state and federal. Regardless if you use for personal or business, a gas station is listed as a environmental hazard and a liability. Most cities will require a bond before taking possession. There is the possibility of liability further down the road. The worst case scenario is that if the gas station is out of service for too long, the city could re-zone the property with improvement restrictions, which could leave the property un-sellable unless you make certain expensive improvements like digging up the concrete and removing the fuel tanks along with several yards of soil that the city is under the impression that it is already contaminated.
Moose-Knuckle
03-19-16, 03:03
This site has some of the highest levels of really nasty stuff in NJ and that says a lot since NJ has more superfund sights that any other state. There is even radiological contaminants in the soil and the DEP was cool with incapacitation and venting. Might work for the fast station the OP is looking at but that is only if he razes the building and starts a new.
More toxic than the Meadowlands? IIRC after years of underworld dealings via the Mafia that the Meadowlands sits a top of an illegal toxic waste dump and is rumored to be the resting place of a one James Riddle "Jimmy" Hoffa.
More toxic than the Meadowlands? IIRC after years of underworld dealings via the Mafia that the Meadowlands sits a top of an illegal toxic waste dump and is rumored to be the resting place of a one James Riddle "Jimmy" Hoffa.
According to the NJ DEP yes. They told me its at the top of the list as one of the worst. I'm sure there are plenty of bodies in the swamps around Giants Stadium, but they aren't that toxic. :-). I don't have the reports with me but the PPM counts on some of these chemicals that I can't even pronounce were hundreds of times higher than state/federal limits. After the piles were driven we had to lay down 6" of asphalt otherwise the concrete guys laying out the rebar for the grade beams and slab would have to undergo 40hours of EPA training and wear full body suits while working inside the excavated area.
Averageman
03-19-16, 09:56
DO NOT BUY A GAS STATION!! Especially if it has been out of service for 5 years. An EPA phase III environmental survey and soil report is mandatory!!!! It has to be current and you provide copy for city, state and federal. Regardless if you use for personal or business, a gas station is listed as a environmental hazard and a liability. Most cities will require a bond before taking possession. There is the possibility of liability further down the road. The worst case scenario is that if the gas station is out of service for too long, the city could re-zone the property with improvement restrictions, which could leave the property un-sellable unless you make certain expensive improvements like digging up the concrete and removing the fuel tanks along with several yards of soil that the city is under the impression that it is already contaminated.
This!
I remember reading the horror story of someone else doing this, the EPA will make your life misery.
I'm guessing it would be less hassle to leave the pumps and tanks with fuel in them rather than trying to remove them.
I'll do more due diligence, but I'm inclined to go for this. There are numerous threads about gas stations converted to restaurants - I do not intend to do that. Our community is somewhat in the clutches of Kroger - their convenience stores have just about choked out all other competition. As a result in the last couple years at least 3 competitors convenience stores have been closed. All have had their tanks removed and been repurposed. Could be it won't happen - I've got a ceiling on what I'll bid - I wont go over that to buy what essentially will be a clubhouse. I could see getting some competition if a guy wanted to buy it for a detail shop.
Has OP run off yet? I'd just move to the country and build a new post frame construction barn and out fit it as needed. I did that 23 years ago to escape the concrete jungle of the city. Best move I've ever made.:)
Edit...OP is alive and kicking.:)
Problem with that is OPie had a mortgage burning on the house a while back and already has a barn style garage and two other smaller garages/buildings on the property - I kind of like it except if I want to keep all the motorcycles inside (I do) and have a dedicated workout area (I do) my beautiful Mustang convertible, puts on more miles going in and out of the garage than it does being driven. Plus, I think the building is cool, I've been watching it for a while.
ColtSeavers
03-19-16, 14:40
Page 4 and not one Clerks movie reference?!
OP, good luck with your decision either way it goes. I think there's been some fantastic advice doled out so far, minus my post of course.
The first project I worked on after I graduated school was a design for converting an old repair shop to a private car show room/club house for the guy who owned the building. He had a few classic Corvettes and wanted to turn the building into a hangout.
It was fairly sizable. 9,000sf on the first floor and same in the cellar. Ground floor was showroom and lounge and cellar was automobile storage.
Good luck with it. If it was in the area I would love to help work on it. If you have any A/E questions feel free to ask.
Rayrevolver
03-19-16, 19:00
I ate lunch in a downtown ABQ restaurant that was a converted old service station. It was cool and I hope it all works out for you! Good luck.
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