View Full Version : Range Report: figure out my sights - Glock 17
bushwacked
03-24-16, 20:52
If there is a range section, please move it I am still working on learning the forums ...
Went to the range to help get an idea on my sights and where they are at ... I still have stock sights on the G17 and am looking to upgrade to better sights but not sure yet what to get until I can get my gun figured out to tell me what sights would be better.
Thoughts on my shooting and what I could do better ... also what does this tell you about sights I should look into?
7 yards
http://i66.tinypic.com/2qvt4io.jpg
15 yards
http://i66.tinypic.com/2qwh0g8.jpg
Howdy,
Nothing wrong with your sights, you need to practice more.
Paul
Left and low and left. You are the proud owner of a Glock! Nothing wrong with the sights, just need more trigger time. When I run Glocks I use a lot of trigger finger to keep from going low and left.
bushwacked
03-25-16, 08:45
When you say a lot of trigger finger you mean the meaty part of your finger right?
And yes I need a lot more practice.
Maybe I misread some posts on sights. Like if you were shooting high you needed a different sight setup than if you were shooting low? That's why companies sell sights in different heights and all that?
Or is that just from where you like to aim you need to adjust like it you like to put your sights fully over the target instead of at the top of the front post type of thing?
Selection of sights is based on personal preference. I prefer my Glock 17 to hit 3" high at 25 yards and POA at 50 yards. Other people prefer to cover what they want to hit with their sights.
When shooting a Glock with a stock trigger, I index the trigger on the crease at the distal joint of the trigger finger.
Dime drills help tremendously when sorting out trigger finger placement and practicing trigger control.
Howdy bushwhacked,
I'm a Glock fan, aka Glocker, and I'm a fan of the OEM sights, especially the adjustable ones.
There isn't anything wrong with your 15yd group except it's strung vertically which means your not jerking the trigger which so many people do, but instead you are not keeping the pistol aimed at the same spot every time you pull the trigger.
At 15 to 30 yards I perfer a 6 o'clock hold were the round bulls' eye of the target sits on top of the front sight. Basically I want to see the bulls' eye, not cover it up. I also perfer a very small bulls' eye, usually 1" or smaller with my standard slow fire target being white copier paper w/ a 3/4" red dot in the center.
I've found that by having a smaller aiming point that I shot smaller groups.
Practice, practice, practice and practice so more.
With a Glock dry firing is your friend. I'll do it when watching TV, etc. in my living room I have a motion detector for the alarm system that has a very small red light mounted in a pure white housing and it is my favorite thing to aim at
while dry firing. One of the best things about it is that it's about 12 feet high and I have to aim up at it so if, Heave forbid, I was to have an AD, it would go up through the attic and not through a wall and into another living space
Always think safety when dry firing inside your home. Many, many people have had ADs while dry firing an empty gun. Most turn out ok but a few doesn't.
The meaty finger?
Usually when shooting a single-action pistol like a 1911 you use just the very tip of your finger. If you were looking from the muzzle end of a 1911 when your finger was on the trigger properly the base of your finger nail ( the part toward the knuckle ) would not be to the knuckle side of the trigger. I hope your following my line of thinking. You only want to use the end of your finger.
When shooting a Glock you want to use more finger because of its longer trigger pull and need to insert your finger farther into the trigger guard with the knuckle joint almost touching the knuckle side of the trigger. ( It's much easier to show you what I mean in person than trying to explain it on an iPhone. )
HTH
Paul
Couple things....first, you are doing fine with the stock sights at 21 feet, but when you back up further your trigger press issues are revealed with the movement of POI to the left.
Far more important at this point than sights for you is mastering the Glock trigger press and to do that you need to do things like balance a coin on your front sight post (harder to do with Glock stock front sight) and dry fire until you are pressing the trigger well enough not to have the coin fall off the front post. This is the kind of drill you really need a buddy for to help with. If/when you take a class with Larry Vickers this is what he underscores and has you work on first thing. Then when you have this down, you can start trying to put every round through the same hole very close to the target and then take a big step back and repeat this until you reach your "fail" point. You'll be amazed at how your groups will tighten it up once you master the trigger press with a lot of dry fire drills.
I disagree entirely with the suggestion that you need more finger on the trigger of a Glock. Use the pad of your trigger finger, and try to center the trigger on the pad and work on a slow, consistent "press" to the rear.
Just some thoughts.
As for sights, there are so many different options out there.
Many Glock shooters find they like a very nice high-visibility front post and a notched rear sight.
Howdy,
Selection of sights is based on personal preference. I prefer my Glock 17 to hit 3" high at 25 yards and POA at 50 yards. Other people prefer to cover what they want to hit with their sights.
When shooting a Glock with a stock trigger, I index the trigger on the crease at the distal joint of the trigger finger.
Dime drills help tremendously when sorting out trigger finger placement and practicing trigger control.
What he said except I don't use quiet that much finger and I perfer to be about 1/2" high @ 25 yards, on @ 35 yds and an 1" low at 50 yards shooting most handguns (.40S&W or .45acp. ). My G20 10mm shoots flat enough that it good to go out to about 70 yards without worrying about anything.
Paul
Are you cross-eyed dominant?
Some Glocks just shoot left. I had a 34 recently that did. The grip chopped 17 I carry and most other Glocks shoot right down the middle. Could be the gun....
bushwacked
03-26-16, 22:35
Howdy bushwhacked,
I'm a Glock fan, aka Glocker, and I'm a fan of the OEM sights, especially the adjustable ones.
There isn't anything wrong with your 15yd group except it's strung vertically which means your not jerking the trigger which so many people do, but instead you are not keeping the pistol aimed at the same spot every time you pull the trigger.
At 15 to 30 yards I perfer a 6 o'clock hold were the round bulls' eye of the target sits on top of the front sight. Basically I want to see the bulls' eye, not cover it up. I also perfer a very small bulls' eye, usually 1" or smaller with my standard slow fire target being white copier paper w/ a 3/4" red dot in the center.
I've found that by having a smaller aiming point that I shot smaller groups.
Practice, practice, practice and practice so more.
With a Glock dry firing is your friend. I'll do it when watching TV, etc. in my living room I have a motion detector for the alarm system that has a very small red light mounted in a pure white housing and it is my favorite thing to aim at
while dry firing. One of the best things about it is that it's about 12 feet high and I have to aim up at it so if, Heave forbid, I was to have an AD, it would go up through the attic and not through a wall and into another living space
Always think safety when dry firing inside your home. Many, many people have had ADs while dry firing an empty gun. Most turn out ok but a few doesn't.
The meaty finger?
Usually when shooting a single-action pistol like a 1911 you use just the very tip of your finger. If you were looking from the muzzle end of a 1911 when your finger was on the trigger properly the base of your finger nail ( the part toward the knuckle ) would not be to the knuckle side of the trigger. I hope your following my line of thinking. You only want to use the end of your finger.
When shooting a Glock you want to use more finger because of its longer trigger pull and need to insert your finger farther into the trigger guard with the knuckle joint almost touching the knuckle side of the trigger. ( It's much easier to show you what I mean in person than trying to explain it on an iPhone. )
HTH
Paul
ya my NAA needs some work to keep it more steady for sure. at 15 yards even with glasses it gets pretty blurry and small so it is a little harder for me to pick up on where I want to aim repeatedly.
I do an ok amount of dry firing to practice my pull as well because I heard glocks are really finicky with this ...
Couple things....first, you are doing fine with the stock sights at 21 feet, but when you back up further your trigger press issues are revealed with the movement of POI to the left.
Far more important at this point than sights for you is mastering the Glock trigger press and to do that you need to do things like balance a coin on your front sight post (harder to do with Glock stock front sight) and dry fire until you are pressing the trigger well enough not to have the coin fall off the front post. This is the kind of drill you really need a buddy for to help with. If/when you take a class with Larry Vickers this is what he underscores and has you work on first thing. Then when you have this down, you can start trying to put every round through the same hole very close to the target and then take a big step back and repeat this until you reach your "fail" point. You'll be amazed at how your groups will tighten it up once you master the trigger press with a lot of dry fire drills.
I disagree entirely with the suggestion that you need more finger on the trigger of a Glock. Use the pad of your trigger finger, and try to center the trigger on the pad and work on a slow, consistent "press" to the rear.
Just some thoughts.
As for sights, there are so many different options out there.
Many Glock shooters find they like a very nice high-visibility front post and a notched rear sight.
thanks for the info and I am working on the "press" to rear it is just a slow process to get correct every time. but practice practice practice
at first I did not think I would be a fan of the fiber optic stuff but after shooting some different ones I do like those more than the tritium bulky ones
Howdy,
What he said except I don't use quiet that much finger and I perfer to be about 1/2" high @ 25 yards, on @ 35 yds and an 1" low at 50 yards shooting most handguns (.40S&W or .45acp. ). My G20 10mm shoots flat enough that it good to go out to about 70 yards without worrying about anything.
Paul
man I am not sure I could even see my target at 35-50 yards haha ... I have not tried to even shoot that far with the glock yet though ... maybe once I get the 15 yard down I will move back.
Are you cross-eyed dominant?
no right hand right eye
There's little point in training out at 35-50 yards. Fun? Sure. Interesting? Sure. Practical? Useful? Nope.
I see a *lot* of new shooters who get themselves way to far away from their target and then end up getting really frustrated and then make their way on to gun forums asking why they aren't hitting the target more accurately.
First thing to do is: GET CLOSE to the target until you are putting rounds into the same hole. That means super close at first. Three feet? Six feet? THEN when you are able to do that, start to step it back to the next "fail" point.
Another point: Do not get out there and blaze through three hundred rounds. 150 rounds max makes for a good practice session. Beyond that and you will be getting tired and quite possibly starting to ingrain bad habits.
Here is great advice from Pat McNamara: More Finger On The Trigger (Warning, Video Not Safe for Work or around children due to language):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8JX2hZR_6g
This is the exact same advice I got from him during one of his classes. :cool:
bushwacked
03-28-16, 12:37
Here is great advice from Pat McNamara: More Finger On The Trigger (Warning, Video Not Safe for Work or around children due to language):
This is the exact same advice I got from him during one of his classes. :cool:
interesting advice ... it seems to go against almost 80% of everything I have read or been told.
I might as well try it though it cant hurt haha
That "more finger" technique has never worked for me. It obviously works for others, but I believe this advice is rather idiosyncratic and most new shooters would be better served using the standard "pad of the finger" placement.
But honestly..when it all comes right down to it...whatever you need to do to get rounds into effective groups on a target...do it and practice like your life depended on it. It may.
My .02
I've used the advice given by Mr. McNamara for over 30 years and it works well when firing revolvers, DA/SA S&W pistols, Glocks with OEM triggers and similar firearms. I have used the trigger finger placement he suggests with a great deal of success hitting silhouette targets at 100 yards.
When I first attended formal firearm training in the 1970's, the instructors taught us to use the tip of the finger or close to it. Most of the instructors owned at least one 1911 with match trigger and their service pistols had trigger work performed on them. I found out over the years that what they taught us did not work well with a wide variety of handguns.
1) Situate the trigger finger so that you have minimal movement of the front sight when firing. For some it will be the part of the finger opposite the quick of the fingernail and for some it will be closer to the distal joint. On a rare occasion, a person can shoot well with an OEM trigger and the trigger married closer to the fingertip.
2) Work on your precision skills at a comfortable distance, 10 yards, etc., until you have mastered your weapon at that distance, then move back. The more precise you can shoot at greater distances, 25 yards and farther, the quicker you can make smooth, precise, shots at closer distances.
3) Dry fire at home at least 25 times for every live round you fire on the range, paying close attention to the movement of the front sight.
4) Try shooting with both eyes open if possible. Most people can make good hits out to 15 yards with both eyes open once they get use to it.
5) Once you can shoot accurately at distance, you can practice split focus inside 25 yards and learn when to use front sight focus or split focus.
A physical fitness program helps performance on the range, so it is something to consider.
Just to note...I was not advocating "fingertip" placement, but placement in the center of the "meat" of your first joint, the finger pad, not the tip.
As I said, to each his own...whatever works.
But with due respect to Pat M., I can not agree with his advice on placing a semi-auto handgun's trigger on the front joint.
Going off what T2C said (all good advice), I had a recent post about concentrating too much. I found if I keep both eyes open, I'm more consistent even at 25yds.
The hardest thing for me at this point is keeping a hard front sight focus. I always want to focus on the target, but as soon as I get a sharp front sight, my groups shrink considerably.
Dry fire is your practice, live fire is verification when it comes to fundamentals.
Do slow smooth trigger pulls until you can keep the sight still.
Then practice harder, faster pulls till you can smash the trigger and have it not move. Then you don't have to think about it, but it takes consistent practice to keep on it.
Then focus on sight picture. This, imo is a feel relative to the sight. This will take more live fire than anything else to get good consistent hits.
Good luck and stay safe.
Edit: for finger placement, dry fire and start with the tip, and slowly move more finger on the trigger. You'll likely see less sight movement, then it will increase again. Play around with it till you find the sweet spot and stick with it for a while.
It also helped me to have it described as: don't think of your finger pivoting, think of your front pad on a pit on that goes through the trigger, grip, and into your Palm and move the pad stright on the imaginary piston.
jasonk1229
03-28-16, 21:29
I've used the advice given by Mr. McNamara for over 30 years and it works well when firing revolvers, DA/SA S&W pistols, Glocks with OEM triggers and similar firearms. I have used the trigger finger placement he suggests with a great deal of success hitting silhouette targets at 100 yards.
When I first attended formal firearm training in the 1970's, the instructors taught us to use the tip of the finger or close to it. Most of the instructors owned at least one 1911 with match trigger and their service pistols had trigger work performed on them. I found out over the years that what they taught us did not work well with a wide variety of handguns.
1) Situate the trigger finger so that you have minimal movement of the front sight when firing. For some it will be the part of the finger opposite the quick of the fingernail and for some it will be closer to the distal joint. On a rare occasion, a person can shoot well with an OEM trigger and the trigger married closer to the fingertip.
2) Work on your precision skills at a comfortable distance, 10 yards, etc., until you have mastered your weapon at that distance, then move back. The more precise you can shoot at greater distances, 25 yards and farther, the quicker you can make smooth, precise, shots at closer distances.
3) Dry fire at home at least 25 times for every live round you fire on the range, paying close attention to the movement of the front sight.
4) Try shooting with both eyes open if possible. Most people can make good hits out to 15 yards with both eyes open once they get use to it.
5) Once you can shoot accurately at distance, you can practice split focus inside 25 yards and learn when to use front sight focus or split focus.
A physical fitness program helps performance on the range, so it is something to consider.
and some people saying shooting isnt sports :)
Plenty of good advice here. One thing I'd add is that for me "stringing" shots is usually a result of losing focus on my front sight picture and looking at my hits on target. I have to concentrate very hard on the front sight to get tight groups.
FWIW I prefer a black notched rear site and a thin tritium front like the Warren tactical combos for my range guns and either the XS big dots or the larger Trijicon HDs on my carry guns.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Great thread here. Lots of solid advice. I'm relatively new to Glock as well and am experiencing the occasional low-left issues as well. The reference to left and low left being a symptom of owning a Glock is interesting. I know when my issue surfaces it's all in the trigger control. But, maybe I'm being too hard on myself in that it is partially the Glock trigger's "fault". Not that it's a bad or flawed trigger or firearm. I absolutely love my 30s. The inference I'm getting is that it's just slightly different in how it prefers to be manipulated.
I can speak to adding more finger to the trigger (closer to the joint, and farther from the tip). It does work. So, I suppose if that is all one changed, and committed to the different placement, it is a possible solution. But, I also wonder if it is really just a bandaid for lack of proper technique? I equate it to, for the golfers out there, a duffer who plays a hook or slice. Yes, it can work and be repeatable. But, the moment you find yourself in a situation where the compensation won't work, your poor technique normally compounds itself. So, as frustrating as it might be at times, I'm aiming to improve. It's an excuse to go shooting and I'll be better served in the long run. I can also verify the danger of overthinking. Keep it simple. Front dot on the desired POA, don't worry about the rear much, and a nice smooth consistent trigger pull. When I really focus on that, I do notice a marked improvement. My issue is finding a repeatable thought to implement consistently.
So, anyone care to share their "swing thought" (yes, I'll always be a golfer at heart) for a good trigger press on a Glock pistol? One of you mentioned envisioning your finger is in a pit (channel). That makes sense but doesn't really click for me. One thing to note. The dime drill won't work. I've done it before, but I just added a XS Standard set and it's a rounded housing. So, what could I use for a similar drill. Spent case on the slide? ...?
OP, overall I think your in good shape. Your grouping fairly well. Whatever you're doing is repeatable. So it's little tweaks to find the sweet spot.
Thanks guys.
Great thread here. Lots of solid advice. I'm relatively new to Glock as well and am experiencing the occasional low-left issues as well. The reference to left and low left being a symptom of owning a Glock is interesting. I know when my issue surfaces it's all in the trigger control. But, maybe I'm being too hard on myself in that it is partially the Glock trigger's "fault". Not that it's a bad or flawed trigger or firearm. I absolutely love my 30s. The inference I'm getting is that it's just slightly different in how it prefers to be manipulated.
I can speak to adding more finger to the trigger (closer to the joint, and farther from the tip). It does work. So, I suppose if that is all one changed, and committed to the different placement, it is a possible solution. But, I also wonder if it is really just a bandaid for lack of proper technique? I equate it to, for the golfers out there, a duffer who plays a hook or slice. Yes, it can work and be repeatable. But, the moment you find yourself in a situation where the compensation won't work, your poor technique normally compounds itself. So, as frustrating as it might be at times, I'm aiming to improve. It's an excuse to go shooting and I'll be better served in the long run. I can also verify the danger of overthinking. Keep it simple. Front dot on the desired POA, don't worry about the rear much, and a nice smooth consistent trigger pull. When I really focus on that, I do notice a marked improvement. My issue is finding a repeatable thought to implement consistently.
So, anyone care to share their "swing thought" (yes, I'll always be a golfer at heart) for a good trigger press on a Glock pistol? One of you mentioned envisioning your finger is in a pit (channel). That makes sense but doesn't really click for me. One thing to note. The dime drill won't work. I've done it before, but I just added a XS Standard set and it's a rounded housing. So, what could I use for a similar drill. Spent case on the slide? ...? OP, overall I think your in good shape. Your grouping fairly well. Whatever you're doing is repeatable. So it's little tweaks to find the sweet spot.
Thanks guys.
If your front sight won't accommodate a dime resting on it's top, place a piece of spent .22 LR brass on the slide behind the front sight. A piece of 9mm or .38 Special brass is too easy, so I suggest the .22 LR brass.
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