FA bfs trigger

[the_1iviper]

i haven't seen any threads about the bfs for a couple of months here and was just wondering if anyone had picked one up and put some trigger time behind one yet. i picked one up about a month ago to try out and have been pleasantly surprised by it. while it does have a few quirks i've really come to like the trigger. Fostech will be releasing their echo trigger , hopefully on time , in May and it seems to have addressed the issues i have with the bfs. hopefully i got in early enough on the preorder to get one in May so i can run them side by side and compare them. while they mimic each other in that they both fire on the pull and the release it's interesting the design differences between them.

here's a pic of the bfs trigger for anyone who hasn't seen one. they use a 3 disconnector design , one for semi mode , one for binary mode , and a 3rd backup disconnector (bud). the echo is very different in design. this trigger has about 2k rounds on it and has functioned as advertised with no issues in 2 different lowers , a nodak spud lower and a kac lower. i had to file down one of the selector stops on the kac lower to allow the selector to rotate into binary mode. other than that it's dropped right in without any fitting or shimming required.

once i receive the F1 back on a colt lower for my commando build i think this trigger will find a permanent home there :cool:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v619/1iviper/IMG_2924_zpsfw1xzy8b.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/1iviper/media/IMG_2924_zpsfw1xzy8b.jpg.html)

[the_1iviper]

here's a quick video of the trigger in binary mode


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emNr5PmagDc

[SteveL]

Why would you want a trigger that fires when you release it?

[556BlackRifle]

Why would you want a trigger that fires when you release it?

I can't imagine why.

[scooter22]

This trigger isn't going to appeal to the vast majority of members on this forum.

[the_1iviper]

Why would you want a trigger that fires when you release it?

for me it's the increased rate of fire it offers. some competitive or 3 gun shooters might like it for it's fast controlled pairs. you can negate the shot on release by moving the selector back to semi before you release the trigger.

this isn't a trigger i would drop into a duty weapon but for some fun at the range or for some types of competitive shooting it has some use. for me like i mentioned in the original post this trigger will end up in my commando once the F1 is approved on it's lower and allow me to have some fun with one of my favorite blasters at the range. for those that don't have access to or can't afford a registered machine gun it's an affordable alternative to experience similar rates of fire.

and yes i know this trigger won't appeal to most here , i was just trying to put some first hand experience with the trigger out there for those that might be thinking about picking one up to use for 3 gun or just to put into a range blaster and have some fun with , who doesn't like dumping a mag at 700 to 900 rpm every now and then. for me they're the perfect triggers for my clone builds.

[Etho]

you can negate the shot on release by moving the selector back to semi before you release the trigger.

WTF. Because that's gonna end well....

It would be fun to play with, but the mechanics behind the whole thing just sounds bad, very bad.

[Chatterbox]

Why would you want a trigger that fires when you release it?

Probably for the same reason some people like a trigger that fires when you keep holding it down.

[KITTEN_FRENZY]

Sounds fun.
I'd get one if it were like $300.

[Kdubya]

I'm all for innovation. I'm sure it'd be fun, but the price is a little prohibitive. Especially when you can get a bump fire stock for $99. Just as much fun factor and gives one an easier means to control the cadence of fire. Although I do think, absent some practice, this trigger is likely more accurate than a bump stock. I'm not a 3-Gunner, so maybe some might feel there's an application. But with something like the Geissle SD3G, that can be run nearly as fast and is likely a much better feeling trigger, it's probably a small market for competitive shooters. I would be interested to hear your impressions of the trigger pull in a traditional sense. Is it clean and crisp, or more like the reviews on the Tac-Con 3MR that appears to leave a lot to be desired?

Ultimately, I'm all for companies pushing the envelope. That's the only way we'll end up with tomorrow's next big thing.

[JC5188]

Well, at least you know when you're on the reset...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Iraqgunz]

Your comparing apples to Coco Puffs. The full auto trigger is designed to function in a certain manner. This trigger quite frankly is one of the 10 stupidest products ever made and is unsafe.


Probably for the same reason some people like a trigger that fires when you keep holding it down.

[GH41]

Well, at least you know when you're on the reset...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

True. One less thing to think about. Did I say think? A match director could have a lot of fun if he knew a couple of guys were running this contraption. The dirt shooting crowd will love though.

[AndyLate]

Iraqgunz is spot on, the thought of using that trigger scares me. Ironically, the OP posted on 1 April, sadly it's not a joke.

[Chatterbox]

Your comparing apples to Coco Puffs. The full auto trigger is designed to function in a certain manner. This trigger quite frankly is one of the 10 stupidest products ever made and is unsafe.

I'm guessing we'll see. If you are right there should be a significant rise in number of firearms accidents.

[SteveL]

I'm guessing we'll see. If you are right there should be a significant rise in number of firearms accidents.

I doubt this will be the case, even though I also think it's unsafe. I suspect it's too expensive to catch on.

[Jpoe88]

I doubt this will be the case, even though I also think it's unsafe. I suspect it's too expensive to catch on.

That, I definitely agree with. Don't get me wrong, its neat and circumvents the ATF machine gun statute of firing more than 1 round per trigger pull, bc technically, it only fires once per trigger pull. they don't specify about releasing it.

[soulezoo]

Count me in on the opinion of unsafe.

This coming from a guy that has shot trap for years using a Perazzi trap gun with a release trigger.

[bp7178]

I remember probably 20 years ago when these things were popular on paintball guns. Much better suited to that platform than a deadly weapon.

[JC5188]

True. One less thing to think about. Did I say think? A match director could have a lot of fun if he knew a couple of guys were running this contraption. The dirt shooting crowd will love though.

Yeah no doubt about that.

[Alex V]

Seems like a horribly unsafe idea. Looks fun, till someone gets shot.

[turnburglar]

Rock on man. Report back how you like both models. I didn't like how on the FA trigger you could induce a fail to fire by outrunning the bolt. I also didn't like how Franklin wants you to send in your lower for figment. It seems fostech will be what I'm looking for.

[titsonritz]

Looks like a disaster waiting to happen.

[Jpoe88]

Rock on man. Report back how you like both models. I didn't like how on the FA trigger you could induce a fail to fire by outrunning the bolt. I also didn't like how Franklin wants you to send in your lower for figment. It seems fostech will be what I'm looking for.

That's an interesting thought. every other shot is on the release so that means on a 30 rd. mag being inserted, you chamber 1 round. 29 in the mag. 1st pull, leaving 28. release, now there's 27 and so forth when you're at the last shot when you release the trigger, it dry fires?

[dmd08]

That's an interesting thought. every other shot is on the release so that means on a 30 rd. mag being inserted, you chamber 1 round. 29 in the mag. 1st pull, leaving 28. release, now there's 27 and so forth when you're at the last shot when you release the trigger, it dry fires?

I believe the problem is you can actuate the trigger faster than the cyclic rate of the rifle. The hammer follows the carrier and you get a dead trigger with a live round in the chamber. I think you can see this in a Military Arms Channel video.

[Jpoe88]

I believe the problem is you can actuate the trigger faster than the cyclic rate of the rifle. The hammer follows the carrier and you get a dead trigger with a live round in the chamber. I think you can see this in a Military Arms Channel video.

Ive seen meltdown videos and was wondering about that. so basically, the hammer would be forward and the bolt against it?

[Dionysusigma]

I remember probably 20 years ago when these things were popular on paintball guns. Much better suited to that platform than a deadly weapon.

Funny how taking the risk of death out of the equation always seems to improve the inherent safety of a situation...

[Iraqgunz]

Doubtful, because my guess is the number of idiots using them won't be very high.


I'm guessing we'll see. If you are right there should be a significant rise in number of firearms accidents.

[HeruMew]

I believe the problem is you can actuate the trigger faster than the cyclic rate of the rifle. The hammer follows the carrier and you get a dead trigger with a live round in the chamber. I think you can see this in a Military Arms Channel video.

You're skipping a round. If you have one in the chamber, pull the trigger, it ignites the round in the chamber, leaving 29 unfired rounds and 28 in the mag. Release the trigger and #29 is fired.

If all goes well, you will do 15 trigger pulls, and releases, and never have a dry fire.

Honestly, while I think the concept is cool, we're talking about a machine. Machine's fail. And when they do, I want nothing to do with multiple dis-connectors in a rifle that, if it dumped all 30 rounds, could be interpreted by some LEO/Range Officer as a Fully Auto Weapon.

Yes, yes, it comes with the statement from the ATF, but I would never wanna risk the hassle.

At least slidefire is pretty well known, much cheaper, and if they open up the rifle, they see a standard FCG.

Just my two, inexperienced (as I haven't had giggly fun with either), cents.

[WatchTheWorldBern]

I get how it's impractical and expensive, but how is it more dangerous than any standard auto trigger? I don't see how you'd have any less control over the weapon. Are you just worried about holding down on the trigger to stop firing and then forgetting the weapon's still about to fire again? That's already negligent trigger discipline on any weapon, no.

[Jpoe88]

You're skipping a round. If you have one in the chamber, pull the trigger, it ignites the round in the chamber, leaving 29 unfired rounds and 28 in the mag. Release the trigger and #29 is fired.

If all goes well, you will do 15 trigger pulls, and releases, and never have a dry fire.

Honestly, while I think the concept is cool, we're talking about a machine. Machine's fail. And when they do, I want nothing to do with multiple dis-connectors in a rifle that, if it dumped all 30 rounds, could be interpreted by some LEO/Range Officer as a Fully Auto Weapon.

Yes, yes, it comes with the statement from the ATF, but I would never wanna risk the hassle.

At least slidefire is pretty well known, much cheaper, and if they open up the rifle, they see a standard FCG.

Just my two, inexperienced (as I haven't had giggly fun with either), cents.

I got my trigger pull and reset bass-ackwards! If you load an even number of rounds, you wont have a dry fire.

[Leaveammoforme]

True. One less thing to think about. Did I say think? A match director could have a lot of fun if he knew a couple of guys were running this contraption. The dirt shooting crowd will love though.

Club that I shoot at frequently has a standing "No FA or simulated FA fire" rule that applies to matches.

We've all seen people "go dumb" once the timer beeps. I myself have been guilty on occasion. Last thing needed is a person having to remember to not release the trigger. It's just asking for problems.

TaterTot and I offered an unbiased test on a couple of the BFA's in the original thread. The offers weren't responded to which leaves me to draw conclusions based on what I've read and watched.

If with a person already has quick splits, the BFA looks like it will just introduce problems with hammer follow (which is a malfunction btw).

It would be downright foolish and dangerous to attempt to use this system in any professional or competitive environment.

I would suggest to anyone thinking of using a BFA (in 3rd position mode) in a match setting to disclose the fact to the MD. It may keep you from a DQ, or worse.

[Jpoe88]

Club that I shoot at frequently has a standing "No FA or simulated FA fire" rule that applies to matches.

We've all seen people "go dumb" once the timer beeps. I myself have been guilty on occasion. Last thing needed is a person having to remember to not release the trigger. It's just asking for problems.

TaterTot and I offered an unbiased test on a couple of the BFA's in the original thread. The offers weren't responded to which leaves me to draw conclusions based on what I've read and watched.

If with a person already has quick splits, the BFA looks like it will just introduce problems with hammer follow (which is a malfunction btw).

It would be downright foolish and dangerous to attempt to use this system in any professional or competitive environment.

I would suggest to anyone thinking of using a BFA (in 3rd position mode) in a match setting to disclose the fact to the MD. It may keep you from a DQ, or worse.

Agreed. if someone is dead set on this then they need a snap cap as the last one in the mag.

[HeruMew]

I get how it's impractical and expensive, but how is it more dangerous than any standard auto trigger? I don't see how you'd have any less control over the weapon. Are you just worried about holding down on the trigger to stop firing and then forgetting the weapon's still about to fire again? That's already negligent trigger discipline on any weapon, no.

I would agree, and disagree.

As mentioned, one should always practice and uphold the four cardinal rules of gun safety.

I could provide many situations, whether in self defense, or negligence, or someone inexperienced picking it up and not knowing.

My main "Danger" is the situation I expressed earlier. I don't wanna end up in the back of a squad car, we won't even go over the legal and financial implications, over an extra round per trigger release.

Again, I don't "think" any of this would occur, but why take the chances? Even beyond the dangers of weapon control, utilization, cardinal rules; there is still danger.

But, maybe the others have differing opinions on why this would be considered dangerous?
I can definitely understand/see the dangers of something like this when it comes to bodily harm, or legal repercussions, but could be overlooking something.
ETA: I can also see your point, which is a very good one.

[the_1iviper]

some interesting comments so far , especially the number of unsafe replies. while i'll agree in the wrong hands it could be unsafe i think that could be said of alot of firearm related accessories. i'm sure the majority of the members on this board have good trigger discipline and would have no problems manipulating the selector or trigger in the bfs in a safe manner. franklin armory also includes a big red sticker to put behind the selector to warn someone who might just pick up the gun , they also put it on any lower they sell with a bfs or lower that was sent to them for a bfs installation. i'm sure most here are pretty good at keeping track of their firearms and who they let shoot them.

i'm not saying the bfs is better than sliced bread and peanut butter and everyone should have one in all of their guns. i do think it is a better solution than a slide fire stock setup for an experienced shooter wanting the ability to shoot simulated full auto rates of fire. it also has a decent trigger in semi mode , to me it's like a gritty ssa with about a 5 to 6 pound break. some seem to be under the impression that the bfs always fires on the release of the trigger but it also functions fine in semi mode.

the biggest issue i have with the trigger is the way the bud engages after your mag runs dry , it's why i showed the video with 2 mags. after you insert a fresh mag and drop the bolt the first action of the trigger disengages the bud , the pull , then the gun will fire on release of the trigger for the first shot. in the video you see me try to give a quick half pull on the trigger to release the bud so firing will start on the pull of the trigger. it didn't work and you'll notice on the next full pull on the trigger that the pull disengaged the bud and the release fired the first shot.

the other issue i have has also been brought up , out running the gun. with a carbine gas system this is pretty easy to do with with the bfs and the gun will need to be tuned to run faster to be able to keep up with your finger. longer gas systems handle it better and need less tuning. piston uppers don't seem to work well with it for some reason. it can also be averted by just not trying to fire the gun as fast as you can but rather as fast as the gun will run.

the fostech echo trigger that's coming out supposedly doesn't have either of these issues. it always fires on the pull of the trigger and it also uses a much different design than the bfs , it mechanism for combating hammer follow is very interesting.

i don't shoot 3 gun but i believe if you plan on using any kind of trigger like this you need to let them know and the gun needs to be visibly marked.

this trigger definitely isn't for everybody. it's really not a drop in part and will probably need some tuning depending on the setup you have. if your the type of person who gets pissed off at your mower because it won't start so you pack it with tanerite and shoot it with your ar inside of 100 feet to ignite said large amount of tanerite , this trigger is not for you.

[IPSC_GUY]

May I ask everyone who is saying the system is unsafe, how so? Are all ya'all envisioning a mechanical failure? or operator error causing a negligent discharge?

The advantage I can see is, with proper training, a nice controlled pair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJfFww7KGes

IPSC_GUY

[556BlackRifle]

May I ask everyone who is saying the system is unsafe, how so? Are all ya'all envisioning a mechanical failure? or operator error causing a negligent discharge?

The advantage I can see is, with proper training, a nice controlled pair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJfFww7KGes

IPSC_GUY

I agree it could be fun in the right environment but IMO it's not suited for everyday use. IMO it's counterintuitive for the operator to hold the trigger down on the last shot they want to fire and then flip the safety selector. (Most of us have been trained to remove our finger from the trigger when we're done shooting.)

[JC5188]

May I ask everyone who is saying the system is unsafe, how so? Are all ya'all envisioning a mechanical failure? or operator error causing a negligent discharge?

The advantage I can see is, with proper training, a nice controlled pair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJfFww7KGes

IPSC_GUY

Unless I'm figuring wrong, the diff between 3.24 and 2.68 is just over one HALF of a second, not "almost a full second". That's including the obvious stutter he had on target three...the difference in time is due to the shooter, not the superiority of the trigger.

My opinion...

Best case scenario is a match where EVERYBODY uses this trigger. And dirt shooters. Any professional use capacity outfits already have access to real FA trigger groups, and would use them in extremely limited scenarios anyway. I just don't see, other than as a fun noisemaker, anything this does that a far less expensive traditional trigger doesn't already do regarding performance. Not from that video anyway.

I don't even really need to go all the way to any safety concerns I may have. It's just not for me.

[Circle_10]

I'll admit I think it looks entertaining, but I say that as somebody with no regular access to actual select-fire weapons and only limited full auto experience period.
As far as safety goes, the idea of it firing when you release the trigger *sounds* idiotic, but I can't quite see how it would be any less safe than the "burst" setting on an M16A2.

[CrazyFingers]

As far as safety goes, the idea of it firing when you release the trigger *sounds* idiotic, but I can't quite see how it would be any less safe than the "burst" setting on an M16A2.

Does the M16A2 on "burst" fire a round when you release the trigger?