Just finished a BUG class with Ken Hackathorn/ J-frame thoughts.

[The Dumb Gun Collector]

Hey guys,


Just finished a 1 day back up gun course with Ken Hackathorn (it was a 2 day course with the first day focused on full-sized (i.e. range toys) guns and low-light shooting.

The class was relaxed, but not easy. He basically holds bug guns to the same standards he does full sized guns. This makes sense, basically you should be able to shoot your BUG proficiently or not shoot it. We did your usual Bill drills and the Vickers "the Test" and various head shot drills all the way back to 20 yards. Basically, you really need to be able to land head shots with you bug at "long" pistol ranges not because you are really going to be face shooting terrorists at the mall, but because you need to be able to shoot your gun proficiently (because you are sure to shoot worse under pressure). We of course did a bunch of shooting on the move, etc.

I shot my J-frame and did pretty well. I screwed up one walk-back Bill drill but basically did fine on every thing else (not saying perfect, but fine). I kept an eye on other folks, and I was at least keeping up and a lot of folks were shooting mid-sized and large guns. Not too bad for the J.

Ken basically thinks the overarching criteria for a gun has to be your ability to shoot it competently. Comfort is secondary (and a distant second). He did throw in the caveat that he lives in Idaho, so it is easier for him to conceal larger guns, and that back in his warmer, Ohio-bound days he often just tossed a J-frame in his pocket.

That being said he thinks you should shoot the largest gun you can get away with. He was shooting a custom Glock 43 with Hack sights and a lightened trigger. He was able to shoot competently at all ranges with it, which was sort of his minimum standard.

He thinks you should always carry spare ammo. He preferred speed strips to speed-loaders--basically because they were so easy to transport. He preferred safari land speed loaders of the available speed loaders.

I was shooting some lead Blazer 158 grains and actually had a poorly (read zero) crimped round pull out and jam up my cylinder while we were doing a figure 8 drill around some barrels. I actually beat the cylinder open on the barrel and got the gun reloaded.

I would say that Ken was pretty down on the idea of carrying the J-frame unless you were really, really proficient. Which I can, of course, agree with. That being said, his criticism of the J-frame was primarily rooted in the fact that they are extremely difficult to shoot to a high degree of proficiency compared to mid-to compact autoloaders. He said if you are going to carry one you are going to have to put the practice in. This is true with every gun, but it is harder with the J.

In summary, great class. It is always an honor to shoot with Ken. At 70 he is definitely winding down his schedule so try to get in if you can. You get a lot of "straight-dope" on gun industry stuff because Ken is pretty fearless, especially now.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1519/26221942475_6fda6eb17f_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/FX9iWt)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/FX9iWt) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr

[BuzzinSATX]

Nice summary on the class and KH thoughts.

BTW...I really like your signature line...and I don't even own an 'ought-six! :cool:

[The Dumb Gun Collector]

BTW...I really like your signature line...and I don't even own an 'ought

Me neither!!!lol

[Lost River]

Great review.

KH is a pretty interesting guy. He reminds me a lot of a couple of my mentors, from long ago.

I know the new G43 is certainly easier for most (including me) to get better performance out of than a J Frame, but after carrying a J frame as a BUG for close to 20 years, I am not quite ready to give it up.

[Edmo]

Nice review Greg, and congrats on running a J frame in the course. They can be a hard platform to master, especially at any distance. I tip my hat to those who take the J frame challenge and do well at it.

I'm also a J frame fan and have carried them since I got my first one in 1985. There has been one in a pocket or on the belt many times in my past.

However, I must admit about a year ago I got a GLOCK 43 which now often fills that "small, light, easy to carry" niche for me.

Your review reminds me that I need to take one of Ken's courses.

Edmo

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l223/Edmo_03/gun%20stuff/imagejpg2_zpse6448b75.jpg


http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l223/Edmo_03/GLOCKs/image_zpseb1p2jrg.jpeg

[Sam]

I have to agree with the counselor.

J frames and other little revolvers are not easy to shoot. I've shot revolvers since I was a teenager, so I had a little head start on most milleniums and other shooters. It took me a long time to become competent.

Another observation, Greg, myself and another student shot from pocket holsters, which is how we carry most of the time. Since Greg was on opposite end of the firing line from me I didn't get to observe him shooting. But I noticed that every time, I mean every time, my buddy with the J that drew from the pocket, was always the first to get the shot off. Ken allowed us to start with our hand on the gun in the pocket. So he got his shot off first every time, beating guys with Glock 19, Shield, Glock 43 that drew from belt holsters (iwb or owb). The reason we started with our hand already on the gun is that it make sense, when one carry in the pocket we can discretely get a firing grip when we sense danger or potential problem without offending or upsetting other people. If the issue goes away we can easily go on our business and no one will ever know.

That was the first time I shot any J frame in any class (I've shot K frames before). I think the three of us who brought our own J's validated our reasons for carrying them and now have much more confidence in shooting them under stress. Makes me want to get another one, I already have three).

[Sam]

I know the new G43 is certainly easier for most (including me) to get better performance out of than a J Frame, but after carrying a J frame as a BUG for close to 20 years, I am not quite ready to give it up.

By all means, keep carrying the J if you are competent with it and when the occasion dictates it.

[RHINOWSO]

Great review.

Didn't want to shoot the 22LR J-frame?

[The Dumb Gun Collector]

I wussed out on that project. Claude Werner ran a .22 Beretta like a boss.

[SteveS]

Great write up! With practice a J frame can be fairly accurate surprisingly so actually. But the J frames forte and this is where it excels is very close range to up close and personal,body contact close. Old timers would call it a belly gun. This use is probably what most people who carry a small self defense gun will use it 99.99% of the time for. It will fire with contact to a body.

[Dave Williams]

Great thread gents. I've shot with Ken. Another nice gun to consider is the Sig 938. 8rds, cocked and locked, great sights and trigger, very shootable, pocket carryable, ready to go out of the box. I've got a real nice Ritchie ankle holster for it.

[Doc Safari]

Given that the J-frame is often the "this gun or no gun" carry piece due to its size, it is very important to be proficient with it. Being in the hot weather Southwest where standard summer garb is often a t-shirt and shorts, you just don't get many people carrying large capacity autos for everyday.

Wish there were some classes on the J-frame in these parts.

[jandbj]

Claude Werner ran a .22 Beretta like a boss.

Which model?

[Sam]

Which model?

Jaguar, two of them.

[jandbj]

Dang! That is old school cool. Rocking it Mossad style

[Dienekes]

Been carrying a 442 as a pocket gun for about 20 years now. Never could find a pocket holster that allowed a half decent draw; finally just dropped in an empty pocket. At least I can get the damn thing out in under two minutes now!

There are days I think about a Glock 43, but not there yet. I sort of figure if things get much weirder I will just wear the EDC Glock 19 for eventualities.

Meanwhile I ought to get off my duff and shoot the 442 more.

[Sam]

Been carrying a 442 as a pocket gun for about 20 years now. Never could find a pocket holster that allowed a half decent draw; finally just dropped in an empty pocket.


.

Mika pocket holster:

https://mikaspocketholsters.com/product/pocket-holster/

Holster will stay in the pocket everytime.

Carrying without a holster is not a sure way to have the gun stay put at the same place all the time.

[Bruce in WV]

Did he discuss laser grips for low light scenarios? Can you share the comments?

[Sam]

Did he discuss laser grips for low light scenarios? Can you share the comments?

Yes, it's a good idea to have one. I have it on several carry handguns including the J frame (it's a must on the J frame revolvers).

[mkmckinley]

Any thought given to one of those .22 WMR j-frames? Somebody is making defensive-minded ammo for them and they have better capacity than a .38, plus they're light as hell. Was thinking one would make a good jogging gun.

[Sam]

Any thought given to one of those .22 WMR j-frames? Somebody is making defensive-minded ammo for them and they have better capacity than a .38, plus they're light as hell. Was thinking one would make a good jogging gun.

That gun was discussed. As in any RIMFIRE REVOLVER, they require a stout hammer spring to ignite those pesky cartridges. It's fine for an able body person to pull that DA trigger, but if a frail, weak or elderly person tries to shoot it, they may not have enough hand strength to pull the trigger. This is a catch 22 (pun intended) with light weight rimfire revolvers. While there is no recoil, so it's easy to frail/elderly/weak person to control, but they may or may not be able to pull the trigger. I have a friend who is a physical therapist that is not able to pull the DA trigger on any revolvers (including centerfire revolvers). She is not physically weak or elderly, but she has no hand strength. Another friend is an elderly lady in her mid 60s, I've taught her how to shoot her Smith model 36 and she can pull the trigger just fine. I can't explain it.

The topic of ballistics of minor calibers (.380, .32, .25, .22) was discussed. The short story is, carry the biggest caliber that one can shoot accurately, a gun that one is willing to carry and one must maintain his/her weapon. Neglected .22LR semi auto is a bitch to operate even if the shooter is a well practiced, well skilled and well trained shooter.

[Ron3]

Nice post, OP.

I'm a big fan of the Ruger LCR line over the S&W's. If you haven't checked one out, you should. The trigger is SO much better and the Hogue internal cushion grip and frame design handle the recoil MUCH better. My wife can fire 50 rounds of +p 125 gr .38 specials from her LCR357 (17 oz unloaded, 19 oz loaded) in 20-30 minutes with no pain. For me a small amount of .357 magnum ammo is tolerable. Both of us can shoot the weak .38 loads all day if we like.

But anway, I too, like reloading strips because I'm just not going to carry the round type. Too bulky. I prefer the 8-shot Tuff-Strips. I load two, a space, two more, two spaces, then one more. The longer strip makes it easier to find in the pocket and holds it upright. Makes it easier to use, too.

Buy a bunch and pre-load them. Then do all your reloading with them while shooting to build memory. Also, loading the first four is a lot faster than loading all 5 if time is the essence.

The LCR is every bit as accurate as a Glock 19 at 25 yards. Shots come slower due to the longer trigger, but the gun can do it if you can.

Ditto on the rimfire snubs. They always have very stiff triggers. For low recoil, go with weak .38 specials. Still too much? Go for the .327 magnum and shoot .32 acp from it. (and .32 S&W short, .32 S&W long, .32 magnum, and .327 federal) But all of that is expensive except for the .32 auto. (and they don't extract well sometimes I've read)

I would enjoy such a class on backups myself.

[Little Creek]

I was there and shot this same course with a G43 as my BUG. Since I am a retired LEO, it is actually my primary and only CCW, that is unless I am carrying my G19 (in the winter). I used to carry my J-frame (M340) in a front pocket holster. I now know that 7 (or more) rounds of top shelf 9mm self defense ammo beats 5 rounds of 38 spl. +P every time. I find the G43 infinitely easier to shoot well (fast and accurate) than my old M340. By the way, I make it a point to not go anywhere, that the law allows, unarmed. I throughly enjoyed this course with KH and I enjoyed my fellow classmates as well. High caliber folks, one and all. I can now cross this off my bucket list.

[Sam]

Little Creek,
Who are you? There are two people who are retired LE in the class. First name is adequate. I was the class organizer.

[Little Creek]

Little Creek,
Who are you? There are two people who are retired LE in the class. First name is adequate. I was the class organizer.

Mike M

[Sam]

Hey Mike :) good to see you here.

It is interesting that the BUG portion of the class really opened some eyes. Some decided to change their BUG gun from a snubby to some kind of small 9mm semi auto. At least one student saw the need to replace his current "express big dot" front sight system to a more conventional night front sight to get better accuracy, at least one was convinced that a Crimson Trace grip is the ticket for his J frame. I think Greg and I confirmed and validated our BUG choice and will continue to drive on with our current set up.

Excellent class and maybe one of the best ever.

[johnnywitt]

I have to agree with the counselor.

J frames and other little revolvers are not easy to shoot. I've shot revolvers since I was a teenager, so I had a little head start on most milleniums and other shooters. It took me a long time to become competent.

Another observation, Greg, myself and another student shot from pocket holsters, which is how we carry most of the time. Since Greg was on opposite end of the firing line from me I didn't get to observe him shooting. But I noticed that every time, I mean every time, my buddy with the J that drew from the pocket, was always the first to get the shot off. Ken allowed us to start with our hand on the gun in the pocket. So he got his shot off first every time, beating guys with Glock 19, Shield, Glock 43 that drew from belt holsters (iwb or owb). The reason we started with our hand already on the gun is that it make sense, when one carry in the pocket we can discretely get a firing grip when we sense danger or potential problem without offending or upsetting other people. If the issue goes away we can easily go on our business and no one will ever know.

That was the first time I shot any J frame in any class (I've shot K frames before). I think the three of us who brought our own J's validated our reasons for carrying them and now have much more confidence in shooting them under stress. Makes me want to get another one, I already have three).

That's what I have always maintained. Speed of getting off the First shot and the fact that ,statistically, as a CCW, you will be engaged at very close and personal ranges & possibly to be involved in a physical struggle shooting one handed and odd positions that that can entail & maybe even having to contact shoot your attacker. For this type of work, the Snubby is unparalled, IMO.
I just keep coming back to the J Frame Snubby. That Single Stack is Sexy and Glamorous and all, but the Snubby is like a good Wife that won't quit you.

[johnnywitt]

Any thought given to one of those .22 WMR j-frames? Somebody is making defensive-minded ammo for them and they have better capacity than a .38, plus they're light as hell. Was thinking one would make a good jogging gun.

The deal with the .22WMR is ballistically it's like the .357 Mag out of a short Snubbie barrel. You may as well shoot .22LR or .38 Spl. out of a 3"" barrel or shorter barrel. Plus, you have to consider the fact that a RF Round is an older, much less reliable way to ignite a Cartridge. Also, as other Posters have mentioned, you just can't get the trigger as light on a RF Snubbie without failures. That being said, I have 2 J Frame .22's & I have carried them. I just watch out for any solvents and oil around my Cartridges and also change the ammo frequently. Honestly though, I kinda gave up on the carrying a .22 J frame idea, except Backpacking or Hiking in a low threat environment (also carry chromed Gen 1 KT .32acp for that role). I do carry a Mod. 332Ti .32 H&R Mag & I like having a 6 Shot ultra lightweight J Frame.

[titsonritz]

I think Greg and I confirmed and validated our BUG choice and will continue to drive on with our current set up.


I don't blame you, IMO a 442/642 is the best pocket piece to be had.

[DireStraits]

Excellent thread.