View Full Version : The Panama Papaers: The murky world of offshore tax havens
How the rich and powerful hide money and don't pay taxes. War lords and western politicians, all the the same when it comes to hiding their money. This is gonna get ugly.
On Sunday, the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists published a massive leak of documents, dubbed the Panama Papers. CNNMoney has you covered with what you need to know about the story and responses to it.
What are the Panama Papers?
ICIJ and an international coalition of media outlets investigated the trove of papers, which allegedly reveal a clandestine network involving associates of Russian President Vladimir Putin, and business ties between a member of FIFA's ethics committee and men whom the United States has indicted for corruption.
Why are they called the Panama Papers?
The more-than 11 million documents, which date back four decades, are allegedly connected to Panama law firm Mossack Fonseca. ICIJ reports that the firm helped establish secret shell companies and offshore accounts for global power players. ICIJ reports that a 2015 audit found that Mossack Fonseca knew the identities of the real owners of just 204 of 14,086 companies it had incorporated in Seychelles, an Indian Ocean archipelago often described as a tax haven.
Is it clear anything illegal has happened?
The documents do not necessarily indicate illegal activity. But shell companies and offshore accounts can be used to mask the origin of financial transactions and ownership. The files include people and companies that the U.S. has blacklisted due to drug trafficking and terrorism links, according to the ICIJ.
Who is implicated in the documents?
The documents reference 12 current or former world leaders, as well as 128 other politicians and public officials. In addition to allegations involving associates of Putin -- the Russian leader isn't himself mentioned by name in any of the documents -- and FIFA, the papers also accuse the prime minister of Iceland, Sigmundur David Gunnlaugsson, of having ties, through his wife, to an offshore company that were not properly disclosed, while Argentina's President Mauricio Macri is alleged to have failed to disclose links to a company in his asset declarations.
Cont:
http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/04/world/panama-papers-explainer/
skijunkie55
04-05-16, 09:33
Oh well. Unless you make saving your money so the government can't take all of it illegal, there's nothing to see here.
The rates that these people would be taxed if they kept all their money in conventional markets in the home countries would be ridiculous. Do I think the governments of these specific people are entitled to their money? Nope. You either change the laws or you suck it up and move on.
Averageman
04-05-16, 09:37
Isn't Panama where all of the major Cocaine traffickers hid Billions of dollars and didn't it all just disappear?
Is that part of the reason we went down there to do a reset on Panama?
There's a lot of shady stuff goes on there and counting on those people to do the right thing when your money may be ill gotten gains or you are trying to hide it from your ex, the IRS or some other .gov agency?
Blame it on Panama's ex-dictator Manuel Noriega.;)
I have no problem with people setting up off shore corporation to limit or avoid taxation.
Let us remember that income tax when it was instituted by Wilson was never supposed to be more than 7% for people that made in 1913 $500,000 or more.
Now the USA is one of the few countries that wants to tax it's citizens world wide income.
Tell me who is immoral.
Make no mistake, this will have huge fall out with the Russia, China, etc already responding and various countries opening investigations. Largest protest in Iceland ever taking place over it now..World leaders of failing countries hiding billions, and people will be assassinated over it, etc Tera bites of info that will take months to years to fully go through similar to Snowden info. Could lead to the fall of major banks, world leaders, etc.
Isn't Panama where all of the major Cocaine traffickers hid Billions of dollars and didn't it all just disappear?
Is that part of the reason we went down there to do a reset on Panama?
There's a lot of shady stuff goes on there and counting on those people to do the right thing when your money may be ill gotten gains or you are trying to hide it from your ex, the IRS or some other .gov agency?
Panama's banking is much more transparent and there's IRS agents in Panama and working with Panama Gov, which is why it's now a major banking center. It's no longer a place to simply hide drug money, etc. Law firms who know how to game the system by using shell companies, fake charities, using banks in various countries set up for no other reason than to protect ultra wealthy, are not unique to Panama.
Panama does have some unique banking laws that does make it very difficult to figure out who owns what, and the US and World Bank have been trying to chip away at that for some time.
Per usual, if you have the $ and mojo, you'll find a way to hide your money while the "little" people take it up the ...
Will I agree this information which should be private, for once made public more than a few people will get killed over this.
Eurodriver
04-05-16, 10:48
Now the USA is one of the few countries that wants to tax it's citizens world wide income.
"Wants to"???
Outlander Systems
04-05-16, 10:48
The entire world is corrupt from bottom-to-top.
"Wants to"???
Yes they want to. But high worth people avoid it in a large part. It takes money to make money and it takes money to structure in a way to keep your money.
This is way more than just some rich people hiding some money from taxes. It's payoffs, stolen money, drug money....
brickboy240
04-05-16, 11:29
As long as governments have high corporate tax rates, this will continue.
The USA has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world....and some here are amazed when they find out about things like this.
In the name of first fighting the war on drugs, then the war on terror, the government of the USA declared war on good Americans' just trying to earn a living.
You all would be in shock at how much of my time and money is spent trying to obey stupid laws that don't hurt the bad guys and only hurt the good guys.
Now the USA is one of the few countries that wants to tax it's citizens world wide income. Tell me who is immoral.
The US allows you to take a foreign tax credit if you paid taxes on the income earned in a foreign country, so that your foreign income is only taxed once at the US rate.
I know this because I have foreign investments in my mutual funds.
As long as governments have high corporate tax rates, this will continue.
The USA has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world....and some here are amazed when they find out about things like this.
It's a lot deeper and larger then that. It's not just overly high corp taxes and people need to get over that BS asap.
Another good read:
http://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/apr/03/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-panama-papers
Eurodriver
04-05-16, 11:44
Yes they want to. But high worth people avoid it in a large part. It takes money to make money and it takes money to structure in a way to keep your money.
The USA already taxes worldwide income was my point.
The US allows you to take a foreign tax credit if you paid taxes on the income earned in a foreign country, so that your foreign income is only taxed once at the US rate.
I know this because I have foreign investments in my mutual funds.
Which has an annual limit that none of the people in these papers care about.
I am with yoni. When you tax C Corps at 34% - 40% you can't be like "Whoa, wait, moving to Denmark? What a bunch of assholes"
As a shareholder I want my company to go overseas.
In the name of first fighting the war on drugs, then the war on terror, the government of the USA declared war on good Americans' just trying to earn a living.
You all would be in shock at how much of my time and money is spent trying to obey stupid laws that don't hurt the bad guys and only hurt the good guys.
I think many fail to realize that all that money being spent is paid to someone/some entity who only exist due to the continued "war"
It's made some very wealthy.
The US allows you to take a foreign tax credit if you paid taxes on the income earned in a foreign country, so that your foreign income is only taxed once at the US rate.
I know this because I have foreign investments in my mutual funds.
I am aware of this. But I pay my taxes in the country I made my money in. What right does DC have to my money that I make outside the USA? Why do I have to spend so much money on lawyers in 2 countries to make sure I don't break a law.
I will give you an idea how stupid this is.
The local general sends an army truck plantation to plantation to collect a stock of banana's or plantains every Friday. I happened to tell my USA lawyer this who is a big money lawyer that is an expert on Americans doing international business.
Next thing I know I am forced to write a document on company policy on graft and have my employees sign it . On Fridays my people no longer can meet the military. But I have seen a stock of bananas laying beside the road, but I don't know who's they are or how they got there or who is the good citizen that disposes of such waste along side the road.
I stand by my statement no matter how much you pay local DC still wants in your business. That is immoral, especially when they are all getting paid off.
We are surf's, that are allowed to own guns.
Prime Minister is the first to fall, who will be next?
skijunkie55
04-05-16, 12:34
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-father-and-senior-tory-figures-named-in-panama-papers-leak-a6967116.html
"The ICIJ said there was no suggestion that the individuals named in the Panama Papers had done anything illegal."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/05/iceland-prime-minister-resigns-over-panama-papers-revelations
The Guardian has seen no evidence to suggest tax avoidance, evasion or any dishonest financial gain on the part of Gunnlaugsson, Pálsdóttir or Wintris. But Gunnlaugsson’s political opponents and many ordinary Icelanders, more than 10,000 of whom staged a first mass protest outside parliament on Monday night, are outraged at what many see as an attempt by their prime minister – even if he has done nothing illegal – to hide money offshore.
Why is this anyone's business to begin with? This is nothing but a rich person witch hunt.
Just looking stuff up and to 'combat' this they have a nigh 3 grand renunciation fee plus capital gains tax if you don't like paying two different countries two different taxes and only living in one.
Literally like South Africa did/does. "You're free to go, just leave all your money"
As tax day approaches....I actually applaud people shrewd enough to have offshore tax shelters.
Most of our tax money at local and federal levels go to severe waste. Crime goes up but the police chief, sheriff, mayor,council et al get pay raises? While rank and file don't?
We piss money away and Congress votes pay raises?
We'll never get rid of taxes short of Ragnarok style Anarchy...and I wouldn't mind nor have to pay as much if they didn't piss it away on crap nobody needs or wants.
Screw the little kids in Africa there's plenty of black kids in America to feed. Hell, white too. If you wanna feel like a big hero.
Totally disposing of Obamacare and refraining from punishing the corporate successful would go a long way.
These businesses outsource because the government makes it profitable to do so. Not every job needs a retirement, insurance, extra bullshit.
I'd rather keep what I earn and do with it what I want.
Be it investments, CDs, or skittles and moonpies.
All because a buncha shitsticks in DC have literally nothing better to do except show up, run their suck, and screw folks over.
This is just not the same country I grew up in.
So I cannot help but feel vicarious vindication through the actions of pirates and money hoarders.
I am aware of this. But I pay my taxes in the country I made my money in. What right does DC have to my money that I make outside the USA? Why do I have to spend so much money on lawyers in 2 countries to make sure I don't break a law.
I will give you an idea how stupid this is.
The local general sends an army truck plantation to plantation to collect a stock of banana's or plantains every Friday. I happened to tell my USA lawyer this who is a big money lawyer that is an expert on Americans doing international business.
Next thing I know I am forced to write a document on company policy on graft and have my employees sign it . On Fridays my people no longer can meet the military. But I have seen a stock of bananas laying beside the road, but I don't know who's they are or how they got there or who is the good citizen that disposes of such waste along side the road.
I stand by my statement no matter how much you pay local DC still wants in your business. That is immoral, especially when they are all getting paid off.
We are surf's, that are allowed to own guns.
Do you pay US income taxes? I can't tell because you don't have a location in your profile. Your post doesn't make sense to me - paying taxes to 2 countries and 2 lawyers?
Iceland PM resigns
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-05/iceland-pm-resigns-following-protests-over-offshore-investments
Do you pay US income taxes? I can't tell because you don't have a location in your profile. Your post doesn't make sense to me - paying taxes to 2 countries and 2 lawyers?
Yes I pay US income tax. But I don't make my money in the USA. I have plantations and businesses outside the USA. Welcome to my world pay tax to 2 countries and have to have lawyers in 2 countries.
My post makes perfect sense, what doesn't make sense is the greed of the powers in DC/
President Obama Slams Corporate Inversions as Insidious
http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-04-05/obama-calls-inversions-insidious-praising-new-treasury-rules
Averageman
04-05-16, 12:55
After paying in all year as Single, No Dependents and putting and average of 22.5% of my before tax dollars in to a 401K, I will be going in to write a near 2K check so the FSA can get free cell phones.
BTW, my Mother just told me this morning that she cannot afford the cost of the hearing aides she needs.
Now where do you think I would rather spend the money?
I need a better F'ing plan. 30% may be my new norm.
Yes I pay US income tax. But I don't make my money in the USA. I have plantations and businesses outside the USA. Welcome to my world pay tax to 2 countries and have to have lawyers in 2 countries.
No credit for foreign taxes paid?
Of course credit for local taxes paid. How can the local IRS be foreign to a business in their country. It is the USA taxes I must pay that are foreign.
Please don't get me wrong I know taxes must be paid, but why do I get stuck with 2 sets of laws, 2 IRS, most Americans have no idea what it is like as an American running a business outside of the USA.
If I could keep more of my money it would be spent on things in the USA, which if we who are doing business outside the USA were free of this double trouble scenario . A lot of money would come flooding into the USA.
Ask yourself a simple question why are more Americans living outside the USA giving up their American citizenship than ever?
brickboy240
04-05-16, 13:34
I am kind of in the same realm of thought as Firefly.
Hiding what you make from a greedy, irresponsible and spendthrift govt entity is not a crime I get worked up over.
If YOU had a ton of money like those mentioned in the article...you too would be looking for ways to hide it and not give it to entities that will just blow it on giveaways or non-essential projects.
Averageman
04-05-16, 13:57
Bernie is bringing the Clintons names in on this scandal.
Oh What Joy to see their side start gnawing at their own tales finally!
If this brings the bitch down, then fantastic. How she can have the courage to run for office is beyond me. How a huge part of the American people still support her removes the question of how did the greatest country in the history of the world get so effed up.
We let idiots breed.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-05-16, 19:19
Unless they dumb it down, this won't affect American politics. It is too complex to get into a sound bite.
If Apple and Microsoft can play all their BS tax dodges and no one throws a flag, this - if truly not 'criminal' won't move the mark.
Where are the American names? Its a black mail op.
American companies and individuals will be listed next according to the paper that published the papers
Bernie is bringing the Clintons names in on this scandal.
Oh What Joy to see their side start gnawing at their own tales finally!
The Clintons tax dodge is their so called charities. They are tax exempt entities that pay the bare minimum to be called charities (about 10%) and use the rest to fund their lifestyle.
For a lot of investors who invest outside of the US keep a percentage of there money (capital) in corporations(shell corporations). If you live in the US but are building a beach resort in the Caribbean or buying property like a beach house, you would need to move money from your bank in the US to a bank in the Caribbean. Only problem with that is a noticeable international fee (5%) and up to 18% federal tax- its not a so called tax but the rate of exchange which is a tax. And when you move that money overseas, you have to file with IRS on FBAR form and disclose how much money on a form 8938 and every dime is considered income, which is taxable at your current tax bracket.
This is not new, last year Google had to pay IRS $140 Million fine for failing to disclose there overseas accounts, Microsoft paid $60 Million in fines, Apple paid around $180 Million in fines and the list goes on and on. Those companies are global, they have offices in every country so they keep money in those countries to pay there employees and bills. So its not exactly a offshores shell company, its an offshore operating account. The US really does have a world wide tax system in which any citizen of the US, regardless of where they live have to pay an income tax. In the last couple of years I have traveled to Hong Kong, Japan, Singapore, Australia, Scotland, Malta and Qatar looking into building a facility. My biggest customers are oil companies who drill for oil in the Gulf as well as North Sea and Middle East, it cost too much to ship a part the size of a school bus around the world so I wanted to be closer to them. It really is cheaper to do anything outside of the US. The problem I faced was having to pay extortion tax rates to have a business overseas. I would pay income tax on any money made overseas regardless if I kept the money there or brought it back to the US. And most countries comply and will report your earning to the IRS just incase you don't.
So the corrupt tax wasters are pissed that some of the taxees aren't getting taxed enough? Yawn
If every last offshored dime was repatriated and taxed to the fullest extent of the tax code, my tax burden wouldn't be a fraction of a cent less. They'd just waste that much more money with nothing to show for it. Meanwhile, Obama thinks it's perfectly fine for Mexicans to get paid cash under the table and remit it all back to Mexico, all while they sponge off the system for freebies we pay for. Tell me, how exactly is that helping the black urban poor or the unemployed coal miners in WV?
Yeah, I can only be so interested in this "revelation ", and that interest will be reserved for whichever horrid people get caught in the firestorm. Is it wrong of me to hope that Hillary and Boehner have adjoining accounts? :(
for the last 6 months, the rich people have listened to Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton talk about going to war with them and giving them "what they deserve" for being rich. No wonder they are putting there money else where. America use to embrace businesses, entrepreneurs, innovators and business owners. Now days, those people become a talking point for liberal candidates.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-06-16, 08:00
American companies and individuals will be listed next according to the paper that published the papers
The interesting question is who has known that this was coming out, and doesn't this give the Americans time to get things is place to counter the information?
The interesting question is who has known that this was coming out, and doesn't this give the Americans time to get things is place to counter the information?
Or gives them enough time to roll on the blackmail op....
Ask yourself a simple question why are more Americans living outside the USA giving up their American citizenship than ever?
Who is John Galt?
Averageman
04-06-16, 20:25
John Galt or John Dillinger?
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-05/china-pakistan-push-back-on-offshore-revelations-as-syria-named
China denounced the so-called Panama Papers exposing shell companies as part of a conspiracy and Pakistan’s prime minister denied his family did anything wrong as the revelations spurred calls by European political leaders to clamp down on tax evasion.
As media outlets expanded reporting based on 11.5 million leaked documents that point to some of the world’s wealthiest people, the Panamanian law firm at the center of the leak, Mossack Fonseca, said prosecutions will fail because its clients haven’t broken any laws.
Syrian President Bashar al-Assad’s government used Mossack Fonseca to create shell companies in the Seychelles to buy aviation fuel and avoid international sanctions, the French newspaper Le Monde reported, citing the ICIJ data. Documents also showed that Rami Makhlouf, a cousin of the Syrian president and a top financier in Assad’s government, had used the law firm’s services until June 2011, a few months after the start of the Syrian civil war.
http://warnewsupdates.blogspot.com/2016/04/panama-papers-reveal-north-koreas-off.html
Nigel Cowie’s front company also allegedly helped regime expand nuclear programme, Panama Papers show
A British banker who spent two decades living in communist North Korea set up a secret offshore finance company allegedly used by the Pyongyang regime to help sell arms and expand its nuclear weapons programme.
Nigel Cowie – a fluent Korean and Chinese speaker, who studied at Edinburgh University – was behind a Pyongyang front company, DCB Finance Limited, registered in the British Virgin Islands, papers show.
He says DCB Finance was used for legitimate business and that he was unaware of any unlawful transactions.
http://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/apr/04/brinks-mat-how-mossack-fonseca-helped-hide-millions
Laundered cash from Britain’s largest gold bullion robbery was hidden with the help of an audacious plan hatched with advice from Mossack Fonseca’s co-founder.
More than 30 years after the infamous raid on the Brink’s-Mat depot near Heathrow, new information shows how the robbers’ main money launderer tried to cling on to some of the proceeds with the help of the Panamanian law firm at the centre of the largest ever leak of offshore data.
and people will be assassinated over it,
That Russian that (died) was killed was on the list.
That Russian that (died) was killed was on the list.
There will be plenty more, many of which we'll never hear of. Look at the people/countries, etc on the list, and do the math...
Averageman
04-07-16, 09:54
I think it is very telling that these guys were not only moving money around for North Korea and Syria, but that they seem to not have any misgivings for doing so.
Common Criminals might be harder to detect, but, North Korea?
Really?
Reddington tried to warn us all about the Cabal.
Well.....
I think it is very telling that these guys were not only moving money around for North Korea and Syria, but that they seem to not have any misgivings for doing so.
Common Criminals might be harder to detect, but, North Korea?
Really?
For many, money/riches exceeds all other considerations.
Averageman
04-07-16, 10:48
For many, money/riches exceeds all other considerations.
And I live to hear Hillary say one word about this.
I want to see that cackling old Hen mentions the "Panama Papers" because as Bernie has already went there once, I'm sure he's upped his game to gut her if She does.
The Clintons may have a well known charity, but I'm willing to bet they've got a healthy account down there that started sometime during Bills Presidency. I would guess China made a few deposits in it.
And I live to hear Hillary say one word about this.
I want to see that cackling old Hen mentions the "Panama Papers" because as Bernie has already went there once, I'm sure he's upped his game to gut her if She does.
The Clintons may have a well known charity, but I'm willing to bet they've got a healthy account down there that started sometime during Bills Presidency. I would guess China made a few deposits in it.
I have no doubt her team is scrambling hard to see what, if any, liability, she and BC have from this latest revelation and exposure. I also have no doubts that if her name should pop up, plausible deniability was built into it a long time ago. These are not stupid people and you don't get to that level by failing to set up your buffers between you and any blame for it. There may be a bunch of names on that list from various "sides" of the isle, but there are some names that would make my year should they turn up.
Moose-Knuckle
04-08-16, 01:54
Well isn't that convenient . . .
IRS building closed for the rest of the week after basement fire
WASHINGTON (WUSA9) -- The Internal Revenue Service headquarters in downtown Washington will remain closed for the rest of the week after a fire Monday in the basement of the building.
http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/dc/irs-building-closed-for-the-rest-of-the-week-after-basement-fire/121558427
brickboy240
04-08-16, 12:04
Too bad the whole building did not burn to the ground.
Keeping money from the govt means they have less money to blow on freebies to illegal immigrants, nation building projects, Obama-phones, donations to countries that want to chop our heads off and other wasteful projects that most people here do not like.
Sorry, but we should be applauding those that are crafty enough to hide what they earned from a wasteful entity trying to take it.
Especially since the entity had no hand in helping create the wealth at all.
Moose-Knuckle
04-09-16, 03:23
Too bad the whole building did not burn to the ground.
Keeping money from the govt means they have less money to blow on freebies to illegal immigrants, nation building projects, Obama-phones, donations to countries that want to chop our heads off and other wasteful projects that most people here do not like.
Sorry, but we should be applauding those that are crafty enough to hide what they earned from a wasteful entity trying to take it.
Especially since the entity had no hand in helping create the wealth at all.
The rub is that most of the people who are guilty of tax evasion are elected officials and or law makers that would gladly imprison you and me for the same thing. These same elitist don't believe We the People have the right to firearms yet surround themselves with armed PSDs 24/7.
If I was a billionaire I would do everything in my power to keep my wealth out of the hands of governments.
They're all corrupt.
This is the tip of the iceberg. I guarantee most politicians, CEO's, and other wealthy elites have off shore accounts all over and probably don't pay very much in taxes yet lecture us that it is patriotic that we have more, and more confiscated from our hard earned wages.
I wonder if Bloomberg has/had accounts. Judging by the fact that his news outlet is reporting on this story, I would venture to say he does not. It would be great news if the clintons and Bloomberg are all deeply tied into this.
As an aside, the US needs a massive change to its tax code and entitlements. No one should pay more than 10-15% of their income to the government. I had a discussion with a more left-leaning friend recently. He suggested that he would be in favor of significantly lessened federal tax rates with increased state tax rates and a total rate no higher than 20%.
No one should pay more than 10-15% of their income to the government.
That could be problematic and cause some issues: 10-15% would be a dream come true but highly unlikely, due to the current census.
Right now there is currently 309,467,554 people living in the US, 112,337,481(1/3) of those ages 18-64 have full time jobs (down from 144,686,592), 109,885,681 people ages 18-64 live on government assistance and welfare(1/3). 56,875,337 ages 66+ are living on Social Security. Roughly, there are just as many people living on welfare as people who hold full time jobs. The people who work have to provide for those who don't. Basically 112 Million people are providing housing, auto, food and education for 109 Million people and contributing to 56 Million retired people and veterans. Wait.....are you saying that these 109 Million people living on government assistance need to get a job?
Averageman
04-10-16, 15:49
That could be problematic and cause some issues: 10-15% would be a dream come true but highly unlikely, due to the current census.
Right now there is currently 309,467,554 people living in the US, 112,337,481(1/3) of those ages 18-64 have full time jobs (down from 144,686,592), 109,885,681 people ages 18-64 live on government assistance and welfare(1/3). 56,875,337 ages 66+ are living on Social Security. Roughly, there are just as many people living on welfare as people who hold full time jobs. The people who work have to provide for those who don't. Basically 112 Million people are providing housing, auto, food and education for 109 Million people and contributing to 56 Million retired people and veterans. Wait.....are you saying that these 109 Million people living on government assistance need to get a job?
And this is why Progressives and Socialists are dangerous.
Nobody's going to do the Math when someone tells them the 1% owe them a Free College Education, a Cell Phone, or some Money to get by on. This has got to come from somewhere and someone.
Now the rich who've found places to squirrel away some unreported savings or income are going to continue to hide it. The path of least resistance being take more of it from the Middle Class is the likely result.
If you can afford to hide it you will. If you can Afford to defend it you'll get an Attorney. The easy targets for a shakedown are the folks who can afford neither of these options so they got you.
Now, when you begin to think about all of the "free stuff" the Millennial Progressives are demanding, what's going to happen when we finally need them to start producing enough to pay taxes?
That could be problematic and cause some issues: 10-15% would be a dream come true but highly unlikely, due to the current census.
Right now there is currently 309,467,554 people living in the US, 112,337,481(1/3) of those ages 18-64 have full time jobs (down from 144,686,592), 109,885,681 people ages 18-64 live on government assistance and welfare(1/3). 56,875,337 ages 66+ are living on Social Security. Roughly, there are just as many people living on welfare as people who hold full time jobs. The people who work have to provide for those who don't. Basically 112 Million people are providing housing, auto, food and education for 109 Million people and contributing to 56 Million retired people and veterans. Wait.....are you saying that these 109 Million people living on government assistance need to get a job?
Where do you get that info? At the point of my question - 109,885,681.......live on government assistance. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say receive some form of government assistance?
And this is why Progressives and Socialists are dangerous.
Nobody's going to do the Math when someone tells them the 1% owe them a Free College Education, a Cell Phone, or some Money to get by on. This has got to come from somewhere and someone.
Now the rich who've found places to squirrel away some unreported savings or income are going to continue to hide it. The path of least resistance being take more of it from the Middle Class is the likely result.
If you can afford to hide it you will. If you can Afford to defend it you'll get an Attorney. The easy targets for a shakedown are the folks who can afford neither of these options so they got you.
Now, when you begin to think about all of the "free stuff" the Millennial Progressives are demanding, what's going to happen when we finally need them to start producing enough to pay taxes?
Here is what Progressives and Socialist will NOT tell you:
We are talking about the 112 Million people who are self employed or hold a full time job:
Here is the Net Worth % in the USA
1,083 Billionaires(582 of which have over $5 Billion, 64 have over $20 Billion and the rest linger somewhere around a measly $1 Billion)
11,448,805 Millionaires (over 700,000 have over $500 Million, 3,000,000 of those have over $25 Million and 8,000,000 of those are your basic millionaires)
78,003,554 are in the shrinking "middle class", which have somewhere between $75,000-$999,999
which leaves 22,546,558 in the "lower class" or in the words of a Socialist, Liberal or Progressive, "living in poverty" They have anywhere between a modest $10,000 to a very privileged $74,000
In the US as of 2015, there were 21,781,338 individuals that had liquid access(in the bank) to $250k which is almost 1/4 of the total number of people who have a full time job.
Almost 48 million people had access to $10k(US Census), yet the average bank account balance in the US is $4,436 per the Center for American progress (a liberal think tank)
The Top 1% is really the Top 21.67% but don't bring that up at an Occupy Wall St. rally.
As Bernie Sanders likes to spew out of his mount frequently (99% of all the wealth goes to the .1% of the top 1%) which would mean that 112 people in the US would have a combined $11.4 Trillion dollar net worth- YAWN!!!
If you add up the total dollar amount for the richest 29 people in the US http://www.businessinsider.com/richest-people-in-the-us-2016-1, the amount only equals $910 Billion and most of that is on ticker paper, and not liquid cash in the bank.
Where do you get that info? At the point of my question - 109,885,681.......live on government assistance. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say receive some form of government assistance?
The government doesn't disclose "private information". We will never know if these people are receiving medical assistance, housing allowance, food stamps, child care, education assistance, auto allowance or all the above.
Here is what Progressives and Socialist will NOT tell you:
We are talking about the 112 Million people who are self employed or hold a full time job:
Here is the Net Worth % in the USA
1,083 Billionaires(582 of which have over $5 Billion, 64 have over $20 Billion and the rest linger somewhere around a measly $1 Billion)
11,448,805 Millionaires (over 700,000 have over $500 Million, 3,000,000 of those have over $25 Million and 8,000,000 of those are your basic millionaires)
78,003,554 are in the shrinking "middle class", which have somewhere between $75,000-$999,999
which leaves 22,546,558 in the "lower class" or in the words of a Socialist, Liberal or Progressive, "living in poverty" They have anywhere between a modest $10,000 to a very privileged $74,000
In the US as of 2015, there were 21,781,338 individuals that had liquid access(in the bank) to $250k which is almost 1/4 of the total number of people who have a full time job.
Almost 48 million people had access to $10k(US Census), yet the average bank account balance in the US is $4,436 per the Center for American progress (a liberal think tank)
The Top 1% is really the Top 21.67% but don't bring that up at an Occupy Wall St. rally.
As Bernie Sanders likes to spew out of his mount frequently (99% of all the wealth goes to the .1% of the top 1%) which would mean that 112 people in the US would have a combined $11.4 Trillion dollar net worth- YAWN!!!
If you add up the total dollar amount for the richest 29 people in the US http://www.businessinsider.com/richest-people-in-the-us-2016-1, the amount only equals $910 Billion and most of that is on ticker paper, and not liquid cash in the bank.
Nice post, very informative.
wildcard600
04-10-16, 19:40
Here is what Progressives and Socialist will NOT tell you:
We are talking about the 112 Million people who are self employed or hold a full time job:
Here is the Net Worth % in the USA
1,083 Billionaires(582 of which have over $5 Billion, 64 have over $20 Billion and the rest linger somewhere around a measly $1 Billion)
11,448,805 Millionaires (over 700,000 have over $500 Million, 3,000,000 of those have over $25 Million and 8,000,000 of those are your basic millionaires)
78,003,554 are in the shrinking "middle class", which have somewhere between $75,000-$999,999
which leaves 22,546,558 in the "lower class" or in the words of a Socialist, Liberal or Progressive, "living in poverty" They have anywhere between a modest $10,000 to a very privileged $74,000
In the US as of 2015, there were 21,781,338 individuals that had liquid access(in the bank) to $250k which is almost 1/4 of the total number of people who have a full time job.
Almost 48 million people had access to $10k(US Census), yet the average bank account balance in the US is $4,436 per the Center for American progress (a liberal think tank)
The Top 1% is really the Top 21.67% but don't bring that up at an Occupy Wall St. rally.
As Bernie Sanders likes to spew out of his mount frequently (99% of all the wealth goes to the .1% of the top 1%) which would mean that 112 people in the US would have a combined $11.4 Trillion dollar net worth- YAWN!!!
If you add up the total dollar amount for the richest 29 people in the US http://www.businessinsider.com/richest-people-in-the-us-2016-1, the amount only equals $910 Billion and most of that is on ticker paper, and not liquid cash in the bank.
Where do these figures come from ?
http://www.census.gov/ search under record number of millionaires living in US
http://www.forbes.com/ "Millionaires are more abundant in US then ever before"
http://www.wsj.com/ "where is all the money", "2015 created more millionaires than the decade before"
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/petasa98.pdf PDF
Hey, not all rich men hide there money in offshore bank accounts! Some wealthy individuals are honest tax payers and invest there money.
Like for instance:
Check out these estates:
38830
38831
38832
38833
plus 11 more around Europe....
They are all owned by this guy:
38834
And his name is Evelyn. Evelyn Rothschild, a conservative businessman with dignity, integrity and ethics at the core of his business model. This man could single handedly buy every steel mill, hotel, airline and car manufacture in the US and make that money back before the ink dried on the check he just wrote. Everyone loves to hate him and label the Rothschilds as corrupt, evil, new world order and illuminati but his company, Julius Barr & Rothchilds holding is the bank that exchanges all the currency in the world. They are also the ones who guarantee US Bonds. They are also the ones who were willing to buy out Merrill Lynch, Lehman Bros, Bear Stearns and AIG during the 2008 financial crisis keeping the US taxpayers from having to pay that $850 Billion dollar tab.
Highly underrated!
wildcard600
04-10-16, 22:12
http://www.census.gov/ search under record number of millionaires living in US
http://www.forbes.com/ "Millionaires are more abundant in US then ever before"
http://www.wsj.com/ "where is all the money", "2015 created more millionaires than the decade before"
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/petasa98.pdf PDF
Can't find the mentioned forbes and wall street journal articles with google nor searching on the sites themselves. Those links are just to the homepages of the publications.
I'm interested to see the correlation between the supposed 112 million people in this country working (last i checked workforce participation was much lower than that) and the number of people holding the mentioned wealth. Just because there are lots of millionaires in the US, does not mean they are working.
~300,000,000 people in the US, if 21,000,000 have 250K in the bank, thats 7%. If 48,000,000 have at least 10K, thats 16%. So if the yardstick of wealth is 10K liquid assets (which is a joke) 16% of the US is "wealthy".
So if the yardstick of wealth is 10K liquid assets (which is a joke) 16% of the US is "wealthy".
Depends on who you ask. Liberals tend to deny facts and make bold claims that the majority of working people live paycheck to paycheck and cant afford the most basic of necessities like education, healthcare or housing. Liberals often claim unemployment is around 5% and there are roughly 12 million people receiving government assistance yet there are 109 million receiving government assistance, and by government assistance, I'm talking about housing, education, food, healthcare and childcare and to be eligible for most of those you have to prove you are unemployed. So if the US Census is right, then the number of unemployed ages 18-64 goes from 5% to 31% which would seem legit if you consider that 112 million people ages 18-64 hold full time employment which is roughly 32% and if 56 million people ages 65+ were retired that would be 17%. 32%+31%+17%= 80% which leaves 20% that includes those under the age of 18 and stay at home parents. Numbers don't lie, but liberals do and they do to get your vote. We are not as poor as they say we are. There is a lot of wealth in this country. If 48,000,000 have at least $10k, how many of those have at least $20k-$75k equity in there homes, a 401K with at least $50k and other owned assets. Most people do not keep all there money in a savings account, they keep a majority of there wealth in there home or securities.
When Hillary or Bernie speaks about the 1%, they are not referring to the Forbes Top 500 richest Americans like Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, or professional athletes or actors who make $20M a year, they are talking about men and women who are executives and make around $600k-$2.5M a year. Hillary is worth $50 Million, Bernie is worth $8 Million. And the worst part, is Hillary actually identifies with people living in poverty and Bernie claims that he barely gets by with his modest $175k and free healthcare for life.
I'm going to talk about this because its on my mind now:
My cousin and her husband who are losers, complete failures and extremely liberal are 34 and 36 years old. They have 2 kids and both are on disability. Her husband worked at the AT&T store and had surgery on his arm and claimed disability and now receives $1650 a month, a year later my cousin who worked for Jared's had an overactive thyroid and had surgery and then claimed disability. She claims both of her children and receives not only $1650 a month for her but an additional $1320 a month for each child. Add that up real quick. That is $5,040 a month for doing nothing!!That is on top of what they bring in from there part time jobs. It doesn't stop there, they get a prepaid debit card each month with $560 that can be used for groceries, gas, cigarettes, lotto tickets, beer or anything you want. If you spend all of that $560 you get another $560, but if you only spend $100, then you will get $100 the next month. You see where this is going? Its easy and millions of people do this every year because it pays more than working for minimum wage. Is my cousin and husband disabled? No, but $1650 is a $250k house payment! And they usually get back around $8000 in tax refunds. And more and more people are doing this every year because there is no time limit on being on government assistance and the grass is usually greener for a lot of people. Those are the people that Hillary Clinton feels sorry for. She cries her self to sleep thinking about people like my cousin and her husband.
My dad is 64. He has Parkinson, MS, Ataxia and is in a wheelchair and has a FVCKING man servant that helps him get dressed every morning and drives him to work. I have had 3 back surgeries, 1 shoulder surgery, stomach surgery and every one of my teeth replaced with implants and I still work everyday. Its sad but that is the way the world works. Some people want to work, others don't, and for those who don't, you bet your ass there will be a liberal near by to capitalize on that.
wildcard600
04-11-16, 00:55
Depends on who you ask. Liberals tend to deny facts and make bold claims that the majority of working people live paycheck to paycheck and cant afford the most basic of necessities like education, healthcare or housing. Liberals often claim unemployment is around 5% and there are roughly 12 million people receiving government assistance yet there are 109 million receiving government assistance, and by government assistance, I'm talking about housing, education, food, healthcare and childcare and to be eligible for most of those you have to prove you are unemployed. So if the US Census is right, then the number of unemployed ages 18-64 goes from 5% to 31% which would seem legit if you consider that 112 million people ages 18-64 hold full time employment which is roughly 32% and if 56 million people ages 65+ were retired that would be 17%. 32%+31%+17%= 80% which leaves 20% that includes those under the age of 18 and stay at home parents. Numbers don't lie, but liberals do and they do to get your vote. We are not as poor as they say we are. There is a lot of wealth in this country. If 48,000,000 have at least $10k, how many of those have at least $20k-$75k equity in there homes, a 401K with at least $50k and other owned assets. Most people do not keep all there money in a savings account, they keep a majority of there wealth in there home or securities.
When Hillary or Bernie speaks about the 1%, they are not referring to the Forbes Top 500 richest Americans like Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, or professional athletes or actors who make $20M a year, they are talking about men and women who are executives and make around $600k-$2.5M a year. Hillary is worth $50 Million, Bernie is worth $8 Million. And the worst part, is Hillary actually identifies with people living in poverty and Bernie claims that he barely gets by with his modest $175k and free healthcare for life.
And the right wants to obfuscate and portray the "1%" as just hard working doctors and business people who are paying back hundreds of thousands in student loans.
The figure mentioned in the post I originally quoted put 1 in 4 working people with 250k in the bank. That is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing i have ever seen.
As the saying goes, the truth is somewhere in the middle. The left wants to paint the "rich" as uber wealthy and the right wants to include the "middle class" as members of the "1%". Both have an agenda to serve and groups they pander to for their own self interest.
The figure mentioned in the post I originally quoted put 1 in 4 working people with 250k in the bank. That is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing i have ever seen. As the saying goes, the truth is somewhere in the middle. The left wants to paint the "rich" as uber wealthy and the right wants to include the "middle class" as members of the "1%". Both have an agenda to serve and groups they pander to for their own self interest.
I know a lot of young men women who have somewhere between $25-$50k in there savings account. A lot of people actually save there money, so its not hard to imagine that 1/4 people have $250k, that's why I said the top 1% is actually the top 20%. That figure may include stocks and certain securities or mutual funds that have a cash out value.
The term 1% was invented and coined by liberals to show that there is only a select few who have and control everyone else's money. The fact that most middle class manufacturing jobs went away, what was then left? Corporate America? Retail? Service industry? Hell, America invented high paying jobs. The Us was the first nation to have a Billionaire (Howard Hughes), the first nation where executive salary was more than 5% of the annual profit, we have the highest paid doctors, highest paid lawyers, highest paid executives, highest paid government, highest paid entertainers. Hell, there are royal families in Europe that are worth $2 Billion and then we got Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, Sergey Brin, Larry Ellison who are worth $50 Billion each and they made there money from websites. The USA is the country with the highest success rate for businesses.
Hell, go to Kickstarter and look around an the shit people are throwing money at. Ive seen stupid things with $500,000 in backing, and they were only asking for $25k. The US has stupid money. That is the reason everyone has 2-6 credit cards in there wallet.
brickboy240
04-11-16, 10:43
Yeah, but most Americans have a crazy amount of unsecured credit card debt. (not me...I have none)
Also, I do tend to believe the savings idea bantered about above. While most people do not save a damn thing, those I know that DO save...they save a lot and probably have 250k in the savings.
People in America DO spend money on lots of stupid things and many unnecessary luxuries. This is a huge reason why so many do not have a savings to speak of.
Stop blowing money on maids, yard service, dining out every meal, brand new cars and other expensive things and you'd be surprised at how much you can save. Most people will not do this, though.
Yeah, but most Americans have a crazy amount of unsecured credit card debt. (not me...I have none)
Also, I do tend to believe the savings idea bantered about above. While most people do not save a damn thing, those I know that DO save...they save a lot and probably have 250k in the savings.
People in America DO spend money on lots of stupid things and many unnecessary luxuries. This is a huge reason why so many do not have a savings to speak of.
Stop blowing money on maids, yard service, dining out every meal, brand new cars and other expensive things and you'd be surprised at how much you can save. Most people will not do this, though.
Idk if this is the place to ask, but why would you have so much in a savings account? Most savings accounts don't have much interest, meaning many will be losing value. Wouldn't people be better off saving say 20k or so for a rainy day and then investing the rest?
brickboy240
04-11-16, 11:31
Well...many "investments' like 401k and IRAs have taken a bath in recent years. Once in 2000 and again in 2008, I took quite a beating in my 401k - in fact it lost almost 40% of its value. Easy come...easy go and it will take a VERY long time to gain that back. Especially in this economy.
Now, knowing this...why NOT have most of your money in a savings account or a money market account? You can also get to all of your money, if an emergency comes up, without taking a beating, tax-wise, for accessing your money.
In this economy...sorry..I'd rather have my money where I can get to it faster and where the Wall Street bandits cannot lose it in what my broker calls a "correction."
True...I might not earn as much...but I will not LOSE almost half of it in one fell swoop again, either.
YMMV...
I will let you all in on a bit of knowledge from the Talmud. Diversification is how to treat your investment money 1/3 in gold and silver, 1/3 real estate, 1/3 in speculation. I would add also from my perspective global diversification as well. Get an evil lawyer outside the USA to set you up just what these papers show, but don't do it in your name. A good law firm will know how to do this.
That is all I will ever say in public on the subject, thus endeth the religious lesson from Yoni
Well...many "investments' like 401k and IRAs have taken a bath in recent years. Once in 2000 and again in 2008, I took quite a beating in my 401k - in fact it lost almost 40% of its value. Easy come...easy go and it will take a VERY long time to gain that back. Especially in this economy.
Not sure what you are invested in, but my diversified MFs gained back most of the 07 loss in 08 and continued to rise each year since (year end to year end value with dividends reinvested):
-32.13% 07 to 08
+23.86% 08 to 09
+09.97% 09 to 10
+09.33% 10 to 11
+12.62% 11 to 12
+01.47% 12 to 13
+21.80% 13 to 14
+06.80% 14 to 15
And I had a similar experience after 2000.
A new twist to the story.
Swiss banker whistleblower: CIA behind Panama Papers
"In an exclusive interview Tuesday from Munich, Birkenfeld said he doesn't think the source of the 11 million documents stolen from a Panamanian law firm should automatically be considered a whistleblower like himself. Instead, he said, the hacking of the Panama City-based firm, called Mossack Fonseca, could have been done by a U.S. intelligence agency.
"The CIA I'm sure is behind this, in my opinion," Birkenfeld said.
Birkenfeld pointed to the fact that the political uproar created by the disclosures have mainly impacted countries with tense relationships with the United States. "The very fact that we see all these names surface that are the direct quote-unquote enemies of the United States, Russia, China, Pakistan, Argentina and we don't see one U.S. name. Why is that?" Birkenfeld said. "Quite frankly, my feeling is that this is certainly an intelligence agency operation."
Cont:
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/04/12/swiss-banker-whistleblower-cia-behind-panama-papers.html
Averageman
04-13-16, 09:46
A new twist to the story.
Swiss banker whistleblower: CIA behind Panama Papers
"In an exclusive interview Tuesday from Munich, Birkenfeld said he doesn't think the source of the 11 million documents stolen from a Panamanian law firm should automatically be considered a whistleblower like himself. Instead, he said, the hacking of the Panama City-based firm, called Mossack Fonseca, could have been done by a U.S. intelligence agency.
"The CIA I'm sure is behind this, in my opinion," Birkenfeld said.
Birkenfeld pointed to the fact that the political uproar created by the disclosures have mainly impacted countries with tense relationships with the United States. "The very fact that we see all these names surface that are the direct quote-unquote enemies of the United States, Russia, China, Pakistan, Argentina and we don't see one U.S. name. Why is that?" Birkenfeld said. "Quite frankly, my feeling is that this is certainly an intelligence agency operation."
Cont:
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/04/12/swiss-banker-whistleblower-cia-behind-panama-papers.html
I think Birkenfeld is a low life scumbag, he's a rat for profit and I'm surprised someone hasn't put a shank in his liver in prison.
Having vented that;
He could very well be right is you couple this article and the little accident with the fire thing in the records dept. at the IRS, everyone on "Their" side's evidence of Panamanian investments is likely now ash.
I think Birkenfeld is a low life scumbag, he's a rat for profit and I'm surprised someone hasn't put a shank in his liver in prison.
Having vented that;
He could very well be right is you couple this article and the little accident with the fire thing in the records dept. at the IRS, everyone on "Their" side's evidence of Panamanian investments is likely now ash.
Yes, but how do you really feel?
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