View Full Version : Video CAM of officer with knife wielding man
platoonDaddy
04-06-16, 07:41
I would have aired the guy out! That is one of many reasons I could have never been a LEO. Too friggin hot headed.
The March 29 incident closed the highway for several hours and raised questions about why the man -- suspected in a fatal stabbing three weeks ago in Maryland -- was here in the first place.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eVe7bx_CaSU
Ya if he killed the guy he'd probably be in prison, I mean the guy only had a knife.....he could've just shot it out of his hand, or did some ninja stuff like Jackie Chan.
This is just another example of the man trying to keep a patriot down yo.
Eurodriver
04-06-16, 09:32
Damn imagine driving to your girl's house and seeing that shit in the middle of the street.
diving dave
04-06-16, 10:05
I'm sure if he had been a certain race, the BLM crowd would be yelling out loud. I'm glad I dont do that for a living anymore.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-06-16, 10:26
The cop shot him, is screaming at him to drop the knife and still he calls the attacker 'Sir". Now that is Mid-Western politeness to the extreme.
Nice use of space.
platoonDaddy
04-06-16, 10:39
The cop shot him, is screaming at him to drop the knife and still he calls the attacker 'Sir". Now that is Mid-Western politeness to the extreme.
Nice use of space.
Was also impressed when he lowered his firearm until he cleared the back of the civilian vehicle.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-06-16, 10:53
Was also impressed when he lowered his firearm until he cleared the back of the civilian vehicle.
His walking out into traffic made me wince, but I think he was doing it to use the roadside berm/hill as a backstop. I heard the guy walked from Dayton and was on I75. It sounds like he was south of I275 since I heard an officer say that it would be an Evendale investigation?
Nice job by the officer. A real credit to his family and his department for handling a very difficult situation. A shame the guy was a murderer, he might have been able to get some help.
The incident occurred on March 29, 2016, and the video is already posted on the internet?
1) Who released the video?
2) Why was it released this soon?
The incident occurred on March 29, 2016, and the video is already posted on the internet?
1) Who released the video?
2) Why was it released this soon?
Because the anti police agenda is leading to Departments releasing video asap in order to appease the "he had his hands up" crowd. Because if they don't, many (here, other boards, mass liberal media, the list goes on) claim its a clear sign of a cover up.
The officer showed a lot of restraint. I would have shot the guy a lot more than once in the original shooting and it would have been over with right then.
thepatriot2705
04-06-16, 14:25
The incident occurred on March 29, 2016, and the video is already posted on the internet?
1) Who released the video?
2) Why was it released this soon?
This happened in my area.
The prosecutor, Joe Deters, released it.
It was more than likely released so soon because of the Sam Dubose killing last year (University of Cincinnati Cop shot him off UC's campus).
I have to say that cop showed incredible restraint.
You show restraint by not slapping the black off someone's fat face for not properly rearing and grooming their children to be productive and polite members of society.
You leave yourself open to dying or getting eviscerated by playing pattycake with someone offensively brandishing a knife.
More afraid of the social elites than the people literally trying to kill you is order of the day.
Now is the time to get out. They don't pay enough for this shit.
Also that Deters guy is the same overly outspoken guy who is prosecuting the officer who got dragged and shot homeboy.
Screw him.
I'm sure if he had been a certain race, the BLM crowd would be yelling out loud. I'm glad I dont do that for a living anymore.
Frankly, I'm surprised they aren't jumping up and down shouting about how if the suspect had been darker skinned, the officer would have shot him dead.
I agree with all that this officer showed tremendous restraint. What was surprising to me is how little effect the single shot to the "abdomen" had. Guy was walking around yelling "kill me" as if he didn't already have a bullet in him. This would be a good reference for those times when people ask, "Why did he have to shoot him so many times?"
thepatriot2705
04-06-16, 14:52
You show restraint by not slapping the black off someone's fat face for not properly rearing and grooming their children to be productive and polite members of society.
You leave yourself open to dying or getting eviscerated by playing pattycake with someone offensively brandishing a knife.
More afraid of the social elites than the people literally trying to kill you is order of the day.
Now is the time to get out. They don't pay enough for this shit.
Also that Deters guy is the same overly outspoken guy who is prosecuting the officer who got dragged and shot homeboy.
Screw him.
Did you watch the video? This was very likely a suicide by cop attempt.
Abdomen shots aren't usually fatal short term nor debilitating. They say you can lose a mile of your intestines(prolly a slight exaggeration) before it kills you.
If you aren't severing spine, heart, lungs, or brainpan then you aren't really putting someone out of business.
In the victim officer's defense, he had like no time to draw and react. Stress shooting at close quarters is something most officers never train enough on.
It's thumb up ass plink away at 15 yards on a Q target, State specific target, etc.
Nobody drills exhaustively enough at close quarters. The distance most shootings happen is literally face to face. 3 yards and in.
No controlled pairs nor even a controlled triple tap. Even the mozambique drill has fallen out of favor. A lot of places just set it up where dipshit can pass without having to go to remedial.
To their credit they stalled to try and take him alive but so very much could have gone wrong especially on a highway. But it's the crazy hobos fault.
Let us never forget all this was the crazy hobos fault.
Did you watch the video? This was very likely a suicide by cop attempt.
I did. If someone wants to kill themself. Fine. He had a knife. Get yo Seppuku on homeboy.
What he was doing was causing people to back up on a highway/interstate around uninvolved civilians and until they got more help and a Taser; they were playing on his rulebook.
Personally, I don't believe in suicide by cop.
I believe in officers not unnecessarily getting hurt or killed.
The second it's game on, emotions and personal baggage become irrelevant.
Had he told officer "I committed murder and regret it. Take me in." Different story.
Otherwise, no.
thepatriot2705
04-06-16, 15:12
I did. If someone wants to kill themself. Fine. He had a knife. Get yo Seppuku on homeboy.
What he was doing was causing people to back up on a highway/interstate around uninvolved civilians and until they got more help and a Taser; they were playing on his rulebook.
Personally, I don't believe in suicide by cop.
I believe in officers not unnecessarily getting hurt or killed.
The second it's game on, emotions and personal baggage become irrelevant.
Had he told officer "I committed murder and regret it. Take me in." Different story.
Otherwise, no.
Yea and straight up killing the dude wouldnt backup the highway? LMAO. Get a clue dude.
ColtSeavers
04-06-16, 15:18
Good God that was intense. That Cop's got a big solid pair. Freely admit that I would have put more than one in the knife wielding attacker.
Yea and straight up killing the dude wouldnt backup the highway? LMAO. Get a clue dude.
I have this allergy to getting run over by soccer moms driving down the road HUA, jamming along with Hanson, and totally oblivious to the fact that I am back pedaling away from a crazy man with a knife.
I'm not worried at all about making people late for work. But I don't like being chased backwards into oncoming traffic.
And homeboy made his mind up once blades became an issue. So it's not "straight up killing" someone.
You get stabbed sometime. It isn't fun.
I'd imagine getting hit by a car is less so.
Wow. Quite a bit of restraint. I have never been there myself, so I can't say what I would do, but I'd like to think I'd shoot the guy 5 or 6 times right out of the gate and retreat if need be as much as I could, but not to the point of retreating into traffic.
Averageman
04-06-16, 15:38
I can't believe the restraint used.
Honestly after a couple of years of riding motorcycles under my belt I was really concerned when he began backing peddling on to the feeder road/exit. I've been nearly taken out by a Soccer Mom with a hamburger in one hand and a cell phone in the other on such a road.
I would hate to think that it wasn't restraint and that perhaps it might have been the legal consequences of having to shoot the guy a second time that restrained him.
I've said it before, I am glad I went Military instead of LE.
Can't say I wouldn't have Bill Drill'd him as soon as I had a clear shot. It would be interesting to hear from the officer as to what his mental prep was (if any) prior to that day. Did the current anti-LE environment paly into his decision tree, or was it just an honest desire to not kill anyone he didn't have to? Obviously his level of restraint was tremendous. We can debate in the comfort of our armchairs whether he endangered himself needlessly or whether this video will factor into subsequent decisions on OIS events under legal review, but it's hard to argue with the overall results, both from a safety and PR standpoint.
The incident occurred on March 29, 2016, and the video is already posted on the internet?
1) Who released the video?
2) Why was it released this soon?
All anyone has to do is file a "Right to know" form and you can post the video on YouTube so all the anti-cop haters can watch you get killed on the internet.
The cop shot him, is screaming at him to drop the knife and still he calls the attacker 'Sir". Now that is Mid-Western politeness to the extreme.
Nice use of space.
That was an impressive level of restraint.
A couple things I noticed that are kind of foreign to me and maybe dings on the officer or agency:
We should try to approach peds and other suspicious folks from the rear - unit was parked in front of the guy;
It was like a minute before he called in (at least it sounded like that was his first call to dispatch) why do agencies still do this? Haven't we learned from incidents like Mark Coates?
Guy's hands were in and out of his left jacket pocket a couple times before officer told him to keep hands out, also within 6 feet of the guy;
Why did the officer only shoot once? Training issue? He hit the abdomen, so a little low, I noticed he was carrying a DA/SA Sig, wonder if the agency spends any time practicing the 'money shot' - first DA stroke from the holster?
I thought the officer was, aside from the things listed, pretty aware of his surroundings - he warned another officer to watch his back (that is what I heard it to be) and generally maintained a good 'L' with the other officer on camera.
The first minute or so points out the many weaknesses of body mounted cameras - did you ever see a good full view of the guy? How about that shot of the greenery alongside the road? If I was the God of body cams, everyone would wear eye pro and the cam would ride on one of the temple pieces.
I'm glad the officer escaped without having to go through having actually killed someone, so that is good. Sorry to say I hope one of my guys in the same situation would have been all over the guy's upper center mass, it is what it is, close range assault with a knife, you nail them in the CNS to stop the threat. If that guy had been more goal driven to harm the officer it could have been bad.
All in all, I agree, after the initial assault, the officer should good restraint, he maintained the reactionary gap didn't over react to the guy's half-hearted attempts to close the gap.
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Yeah, IDK about this one. I was not there, and it wasn't my call to make. I don't really like to MMQB other officers. I am glad everything worked out, but that said I do not think I would have limited my initial response so quickly especially with him still advancing and welding the knife. Dude did great creating space and keeping in mind oncoming traffic, but the guy was still a threat through most of that video.
No way in hell would he have made it near a car with civilians in it. At one point he was right beside a LE SUV with the door open. If there had been an unsecured firearm in there, even if he jumped in and bounced to another location, things could have been 10x's worse. But again, no way no how would he have made it to the line of stopped traffic. I personally consider that too much of a risk for things to go sideways in unexpected ways (someone freaking out and exiting the vehicle into the situation or line of fire, or him trying to snatch a hostage), especially with them having a solid backstop behind him for a good length of time "considering". Yeah they could have shot him trying to open a door to do that, but for 99% of cops out there I would not feel comfortable with them letting bullets fly that close to civies, especially when all things considered he was pretty much already bought and paid for at any given time with that blade.
Sorta feel like Top Gun here, Although the outcome was a victory, it can be shown as a good example of what not to do.
A couple things I noticed that are kind of foreign to me and maybe dings on the officer or agency:
We should try to approach peds and other suspicious folks from the rear - unit was parked in front of the guy;
It was like a minute before he called in (at least it sounded like that was his first call to dispatch) why do agencies still do this? Haven't we learned from incidents like Mark Coates?
Guy's hands were in and out of his left jacket pocket a couple times before officer told him to keep hands out, also within 6 feet of the guy;
Why did the officer only shoot once? Training issue? He hit the abdomen, so a little low, I noticed he was carrying a DA/SA Sig, wonder if the agency spends any time practicing the 'money shot' - first DA stroke from the holster?
I thought the officer was, aside from the things listed, pretty aware of his surroundings - he warned another officer to watch his back (that is what I heard it to be) and generally maintained a good 'L' with the other officer on camera.
The first minute or so points out the many weaknesses of body mounted cameras - did you ever see a good full view of the guy? How about that shot of the greenery alongside the road? If I was the God of body cams, everyone would wear eye pro and the cam would ride on one of the temple pieces.
I'm glad the officer escaped without having to go through having actually killed someone, so that is good. Sorry to say I hope one of my guys in the same situation would have been all over the guy's upper center mass, it is what it is, close range assault with a knife, you nail them in the CNS to stop the threat. If that guy had been more goal driven to harm the officer it could have been bad.
All in all, I agree, after the initial assault, the officer should good restraint, he maintained the reactionary gap didn't over react to the guy's half-hearted attempts to close the gap.
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Every officer has to walk a very fine line between protecting themselves upon initial contact and escalating a situation that could have been a simple "ok...have a nice day" encounter. You don't know what you are going to get until you get it. It's like guys wanting to shake hands with a cop, some are being sincere and trying to treat the officer like a fellow human being and others are just trying to close the gap and get a handhold for their ill intentions.
So what is an officer supposed to do? I've seen a lot of people get offended when a handshake offer is declined. I've also seen officers go ahead and do it with a look of serious apprehension on their face. This guy could have just as easily turned out to be the harmless laughable town hobo and a non event. Depending upon the number of contacts officers regularly have in a day, calling them all in might be a bit too much even if it is a reasonable safety protocol.
As for the body mounted camera angles, I suspect the guy was aware of the body camera and deliberately trying to stay out of frame while he decided if he was going to pull a knife or not.
This is just one more example of how hard the job can be and why it's so hard to find and keep really good officers. They have to really have their heart in their work because there are definitely easier ways to make more money.
I can no longer count the number of people I personally know who quit in their first year because in addition to a low starting salary, there were so many associated expenses that come out of pocket that in the end they could make more money managing a 7-11. I know a few people who even paid to get their own certification and then never even started because they found a better job than the one they just went to school for on their own dime.
Add to that the reality that without warning some hobo might start chasing you around the highway with a knife, the fact that you are responsible for every round you fire as traffic zips by and other officers enter a very fluid situation and the fact that if it can be avoided most people would rather not have to shoot anybody today unless it's absolutely necessary. Some guys can do it and not feel any worse than if they wrecked their cruiser, other guys discover they can't handle it at all and it ruins their life.
And despite what everyone assumes, you don't know which guy you are until after you actually shoot somebody.
platoonDaddy
04-06-16, 21:13
Member who doesn't have required totals to post in this section, asked me to post the following shooting.
Leading up to the ER visit for the arrested illegal immigrant:
1. Stole a truck and busted out of a chained truck depot Dukes of Hazard style
2. Side swiped and hit many other cars on the road
3. Tried to carjack a guy at the gas station
4. Finally stopped by the police and then taken to the ER for evaluation of MVC injuries.
Guy was shot/tazed by the officer and then saved by the ER staff.
skip to the 5:00 mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYi5acoa-3E
Member who doesn't have required totals to post in this section, asked me to post the following shooting.
Leading up to the ER visit for the arrested illegal immigrant:
1. Stole a truck and busted out of a chained truck depot Dukes of Hazard style
2. Side swiped and hit many other cars on the road
3. Tried to carjack a guy at the gas station
4. Finally stopped by the police and then taken to the ER for evaluation of MVC injuries.
Guy was shot/tazed by the officer and then saved by the ER staff.
skip to the 5:00 mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYi5acoa-3E
From start to finish, I wonder what the financial toll on America was for this one POS? Wonder how many other times he's cost us money before this?
These are the people all the feckless pols don't care about inflicting upon us, all to push their agendas. Meanwhile people like this officer have to carry the freight. Rustles my jimmies man... :(
I'm always amazed at the speed back up shows up in other areas. Working in VT it's very different. There are not that many cops in duty in my County. I liked the way the officers dealt with the shooter. He gave excellent verbal commands.
The officer showed a lot of restraint. I would have shot the guy a lot more than once in the original shooting and it would have been over with right then.
I'm sure the political climate was spinning through his mind.
You show restraint by not slapping the black off someone's fat face for not properly rearing and grooming their children to be productive and polite members of society.
You leave yourself open to dying or getting eviscerated by playing pattycake with someone offensively brandishing a knife.
More afraid of the social elites than the people literally trying to kill you is order of the day.
Now is the time to get out. They don't pay enough for this shit.
Also that Deters guy is the same overly outspoken guy who is prosecuting the officer who got dragged and shot homeboy.
Screw him.
Some people need to be shot. This was certainly one of those cases. At one point he tells another officer to shoot him. I think it was his fear of the bad guy attacking the people in traffic. I'm not sure why he didn't shoot more than once. I keep going back to the current anti cop climate. That was a Big Knife. I'm glad the officer is okay.
Can't say I wouldn't have Bill Drill'd him as soon as I had a clear shot. It would be interesting to hear from the officer as to what his mental prep was (if any) prior to that day. Did the current anti-LE environment paly into his decision tree, or was it just an honest desire to not kill anyone he didn't have to? Obviously his level of restraint was tremendous. We can debate in the comfort of our armchairs whether he endangered himself needlessly or whether this video will factor into subsequent decisions on OIS events under legal review, but it's hard to argue with the overall results, both from a safety and PR standpoint.
A couple things I noticed that are kind of foreign to me and maybe dings on the officer or agency:
We should try to approach peds and other suspicious folks from the rear - unit was parked in front of the guy;
It was like a minute before he called in (at least it sounded like that was his first call to dispatch) why do agencies still do this? Haven't we learned from incidents like Mark Coates?
Guy's hands were in and out of his left jacket pocket a couple times before officer told him to keep hands out, also within 6 feet of the guy;
Why did the officer only shoot once? Training issue? He hit the abdomen, so a little low, I noticed he was carrying a DA/SA Sig, wonder if the agency spends any time practicing the 'money shot' - first DA stroke from the holster?
I thought the officer was, aside from the things listed, pretty aware of his surroundings - he warned another officer to watch his back (that is what I heard it to be) and generally maintained a good 'L' with the other officer on camera.
The first minute or so points out the many weaknesses of body mounted cameras - did you ever see a good full view of the guy? How about that shot of the greenery alongside the road? If I was the God of body cams, everyone would wear eye pro and the cam would ride on one of the temple pieces.
I'm glad the officer escaped without having to go through having actually killed someone, so that is good. Sorry to say I hope one of my guys in the same situation would have been all over the guy's upper center mass, it is what it is, close range assault with a knife, you nail them in the CNS to stop the threat. If that guy had been more goal driven to harm the officer it could have been bad.
All in all, I agree, after the initial assault, the officer should good restraint, he maintained the reactionary gap didn't over react to the guy's half-hearted attempts to close the gap.
-
I'm old and we were taught over twenty years ago not to use the out your hands on the car/wall technique. Is that still the case?
Member who doesn't have required totals to post in this section, asked me to post the following shooting.
Leading up to the ER visit for the arrested illegal immigrant:
1. Stole a truck and busted out of a chained truck depot Dukes of Hazard style
2. Side swiped and hit many other cars on the road
3. Tried to carjack a guy at the gas station
4. Finally stopped by the police and then taken to the ER for evaluation of MVC injuries.
Guy was shot/tazed by the officer and then saved by the ER staff.
skip to the 5:00 mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYi5acoa-3E
The security guard was good to go. I thought he was a cop at first when I saw him helping to restrain the bad guy.
Dist. Expert 26
04-06-16, 22:48
My training is to keep firing until the threat is no longer a threat. If that means 2 shots or 10 shots, I keep on drilling until the target is immobile. I've never read or heard of any doctrine that suggests firing one shot at an attacker, then reassess. He needs to attend a real training course, because next time things might not go the same way.
The officer should be commended for his desire to help, but at the same time he was placing himself and any civilian in the area at risk. I told my brother when he decided to become a Sheriffs deputy that if he's ever in a situation where his life is at risk, don't hesitate, make your shots count, and remember that your attacker made their own choice that they now have to live or die with.
Everything Steyr said.
I know of good guys who were involved in an OIS.
They either became morbid depressed, alcoholic/pill poppers, and/or got divorced.
Not totally out of guilt but how they were ostracized so until cleared. They became pariah. They had their hand forced and nobody wanted to be a brother. I've said that before and some oorah motard Alabama reserve cop who does it "as a hobby" called bullshit to that once.
No. It's really painfully true. This was BEFORE BLM. Somewhere in the last 15 years, arguably sooner, there has been a burgeoning anti-police sentiment and now it has come full circle.
First off.....gacking somebody is a hell of a responsibility. Depending on your moral or religious views; that may not be something one can get over.
In a war, I guess, you're never alone. You have a battle buddy. There's a support structure.
Civilian policing? Hell no. On your own.
They want you to do your job, just don't actually do your job. Better to be wounded than kill someone.
No police chief or sheriff is going to jeopardize their position no matter how right his officer's actions were. Mob rule.
Enough people bitch and riot. Officer gets sacrificed. Not worth it.
And some people really DID start off caring and wanting to get things done. It wasn't a job. It was a way to try to....I hate to say this...save society. Grew up watching batman. Closest thing you could get to being batman.
Then you're middle aged, bad joints, messed up foot, bitter, and actively pursuing something else with what waning youth you have.
And....the officer in that video is the exception, not the rule. He seems like he was trying to actually be humane. And that could've been his last day on earth.
And I know guys who died. And I know guys in OIS that were fine, but not fine. Dreading not so much trigger pulling but having some sheltered fat ass questioning their actions at 0300 while they were laid up in a bed. Again. They genuinely stop caring. Go full Kurtz without the Vietnam War. Just kinda there but not there until they move on in life making better money with less stress. A fresh start.
And...a lot of the new breed are dicks but...a lot of people get into policework not knowing until too late what they've stepped in. If you're a dumbass barney fife in Sisterfvck, AL it probably isn'tso bad. If you work in a Hellmouth then, no...it isn't worth it.
If salaries, training, and a lot of give a damn went up; we would have it made.
Bah...whatever.
Tldr. Officer went home. Hobo started ALL of this and HE is ultimately responsible regardless of race, creed, color, religion, or favorite flavor of soda
Everything Steyr said.
I know of good guys who were involved in an OIS.
They either became morbid depressed, alcoholic/pill poppers, and/or got divorced.
Not totally out of guilt but how they were ostracized so until cleared. They became pariah. They had their hand forced and nobody wanted to be a brother.
Even worse, they basically have two choices during the review.
1. Feel horrible about what they did, or do their best to pretend.
2. Be viewed as a psychopath with no regard for human life and treated accordingly.
Even if you do your best "I did what I felt necessary to protect myself, my fellow officers and other citizens" you are still expected to "carry tremendous guilt" or be "exposed as a bloodthirsty killer."
You shouldn't even have to talk to a psychiatrist unless you specifically ask for one. But the days of "Nice work, free beer" and the respect and admiration of everyone you work with, those days are gone.
And I agree with you, "tactical foibles" aside, I saw a decent human being doing everything in his power to not have to shoot another human being unless it was absolutely necessary. Thankfully, this hobo will never force another person into a similar situation.
Wish Hallmark made a "Nice shot, I appreciate your service" card. I'd send him one.
Moose-Knuckle
04-07-16, 02:29
Oh great, another murdering oxygen thief is saved only to cost the tax payers M I L L I O N S . . .
Anyone else take an issue with the fact those officers allowed an armed subject wanted for murder to walk right up to and past a citizen in their vehicle. Glad he didn't decide to a hostage or two.
My training is to keep firing until the threat is no longer a threat. If that means 2 shots or 10 shots, I keep on drilling until the target is immobile. I've never read or heard of any doctrine that suggests firing one shot at an attacker, then reassess. He needs to attend a real training course, because next time things might not go the same way.
The officer should be commended for his desire to help, but at the same time he was placing himself and any civilian in the area at risk. I told my brother when he decided to become a Sheriffs deputy that if he's ever in a situation where his life is at risk, don't hesitate, make your shots count, and remember that your attacker made their own choice that they now have to live or die with.
Well said Marine.
Oh great, another murdering oxygen thief is saved only to cost the tax payers M I L L I O N S . . .
Anyone else take an issue with the fact those officers allowed an armed subject wanted for murder to walk right up to and past a citizen in their vehicle. Glad he didn't decide to a hostage or two.
It's frustrating but he didn't know that at the time.
The video would make excellent training footage.
I'm old and we were taught over twenty years ago not to use the out your hands on the car/wall technique. Is that still the case?
We haven't taught wall search or put your hands on the car for over a decade, yet during practical exercises a lot of the officers revert to it - I'm talking new officers here, not old vets. It always kind of amazes me, I guess the imprint of TV/movies, whatever.
We haven't taught wall search or put your hands on the car for over a decade, yet during practical exercises a lot of the officers revert to it - I'm talking new officers here, not old vets. It always kind of amazes me, I guess the imprint of TV/movies, whatever.
Allowing a suspect to place their hands on a wall or vehicle is not a wise move. Some people have to learn the hard way.
If someone must be patted down...
Well I would have them empty their own pockets on the trunk or hood. Then I'd call for someone else to assist in pat down.
If they are going to break bad, that is the time. I have enough reaction space plus my hands are free.
If cooperative do it uncuffed, officer discretion. If not...you already have ARS to detain.
It's all in how you speak to someone. But getting up on someone and doing some Hill Street Blues shit is an excellent way to get beat up, stabbed or shot.
Dude was sketchy from the get go.
Hindsight is 20/20 but never do pat downs alone.
1. You have a witness
2. You have back up.
They have their minds already made up once you approach them. You don't have to bully up. Just be smart about it.
Hell...invite the man to freely sit in the backseat where there is heat/AC while we wait. Turn on the goodtime radio and let him get his One Direction on. If he's 10-4 drop him off. If not he's already boxed in, plus help is on the way.
So many dirty tricks to make a job a little easier and a little safer.
We haven't taught wall search or put your hands on the car for over a decade, yet during practical exercises a lot of the officers revert to it - I'm talking new officers here, not old vets. It always kind of amazes me, I guess the imprint of TV/movies, whatever.
Good. I am sure it's TV. We were taught, control, cuff, search.
Allowing a suspect to place their hands on a wall or vehicle is not a wise move. Some people have to learn the hard way.
I was amazed watching some of the things I see myself do on film. I've always been taught to cuff with my weak hand. Yet quite often I would pull my cuffs left handed and switch them to my right hand.
If someone must be patted down...
Well I would have them empty their own pockets on the trunk or hood. Then I'd call for someone else to assist in pat down.
If they are going to break bad, that is the time. I have enough reaction space plus my hands are free.
If cooperative do it uncuffed, officer discretion. If not...you already have ARS to detain.
It's all in how you speak to someone. But getting up on someone and doing some Hill Street Blues shit is an excellent way to get beat up, stabbed or shot.
Dude was sketchy from the get go.
Hindsight is 20/20 but never do pat downs alone.
1. You have a witness
2. You have back up.
They have their minds already made up once you approach them. You don't have to bully up. Just be smart about it.
Hell...invite the man to freely sit in the backseat where there is heat/AC while we wait. Turn on the goodtime radio and let him get his One Direction on. If he's 10-4 drop him off. If not he's already boxed in, plus help is on the way.
So many dirty tricks to make a job a little easier and a little safer.
Yeah the crazy was strong with him. He new the camera was there with the strange faces he made.
If someone must be patted down...
Well I would have them empty their own pockets on the trunk or hood. Then I'd call for someone else to assist in pat down.
If they are going to break bad, that is the time. I have enough reaction space plus my hands are free.
If cooperative do it uncuffed, officer discretion. If not...you already have ARS to detain.
It's all in how you speak to someone. But getting up on someone and doing some Hill Street Blues shit is an excellent way to get beat up, stabbed or shot.
Dude was sketchy from the get go.
Hindsight is 20/20 but never do pat downs alone.
1. You have a witness
2. You have back up.They have their minds already made up once you approach them. You don't have to bully up. Just be smart about it.
Hell...invite the man to freely sit in the backseat where there is heat/AC while we wait. Turn on the goodtime radio and let him get his One Direction on. If he's 10-4 drop him off. If not he's already boxed in, plus help is on the way.
So many dirty tricks to make a job a little easier and a little safer.
1) I would almost never allow a suspect to empty their own pockets. You don't know what they have in their pockets, which is why you want to perform a frisk while you control the location of their hands.
2) I have been in situations where backup was more than 30 minutes away, so that is not an option for everyone.
I won't criticize the officer involved in the incident, but a lot of what happened makes great training material.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-07-16, 21:16
Hands on a solid object help the guy to move off the X faster by pushing off? Grab you and throw you into the object?
1) I would almost never allow a suspect to empty their own pockets. You don't know what they have in their pockets, which is why you want to perform a frisk while you control the location of their hands.
2) I have been in situations where backup was more than 30 minutes away, so that is not an option for everyone.
I won't criticize the officer involved in the incident, but a lot of what happened makes great training material.
1. It isn't on the honor system. I'm in an angled off cover position with a free weapon hand. If they are going to pop off, they were going to do it anyways. Plus I'm just not getting my hands stuck. Ever. If they have a weapon, most will either try to run, fess up, or attack. Either way I am not in a position to be wrestled, tripped, or bladed and they know it. I can quickdraw one handed from my holster with a fullsize glock a hell of a lot faster than they can pull a throwaway out of their pocket. Demeanor and bearing is key here. You run the exact same risk doing a detention cuff alone. The way I mentioned at least doesn't totally put them on the defensive. Again, bearing and demeanor.
2. 30 mins away? Then we wait. There's no one right way to get handsy with someone alone.
If they don't think they can take you physically they will try to outrun you or kill you.
All subject interactions are fluid. You know that. It's a second to second deal.
You can do absolutely everything right, be in perfect shape, have all the training, and still die or get injured.
You know that.
Hands on a solid object help the guy to move off the X faster by pushing off? Grab you and throw you into the object?
Really, the main problem is it leaves the officer with a false sense of security - most (many) humans psychologically want things to go okay, to the extent, they ignore danger signs, psychologically they cope with potential danger by telling themselves it cant happen to them. Here is an example of this at work - this is just a snippet - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnUYKFU0OqM - the full version of the patrol car video shows her completely violating just about every principal of officer safety and ignoring numerous signs of upcoming noncompliance. Notice the lackadasical way she approached to handcuff using the old hand on the car position.
It's fallen out of favor, but years back we would tell guys to lay eagle palms up. But if nobody got arrested (physically jailed) and somebody bitched then it got heavily frowned upon.
But after midnight, fvck your feelings
1. It isn't on the honor system. I'm in an angled off cover position with a free weapon hand. If they are going to pop off, they were going to do it anyways. Plus I'm just not getting my hands stuck. Ever. If they have a weapon, most will either try to run, fess up, or attack. Either way I am not in a position to be wrestled, tripped, or bladed and they know it. I can quickdraw one handed from my holster with a fullsize glock a hell of a lot faster than they can pull a throwaway out of their pocket. Demeanor and bearing is key here. You run the exact same risk doing a detention cuff alone. The way I mentioned at least doesn't totally put them on the defensive. Again, bearing and demeanor.
2. 30 mins away? Then we wait. There's no one right way to get handsy with someone alone.
If they don't think they can take you physically they will try to outrun you or kill you.
All subject interactions are fluid. You know that. It's a second to second deal.
You can do absolutely everything right, be in perfect shape, have all the training, and still die or get injured.
You know that.
I know that one person is in control of a situation like this. If I screw up, I get injured or killed. Worse yet, an innocent civilian gets injured or killed, because I did not take the necessary steps to control the situation.
Wait 30 minutes? I have yet to see a situation like this where that worked out in favor of the contact officer. Time favors the subject when the officer hesitates.
The best way I can explain this is you want to be verbally diplomatic, but physically in control. The longer a situation like this is allowed to continue, the better the chance a civilian or LEO gets maimed or killed.
"Hey man, you're not under arrest but have a seat. We got heat/ac. We got to wait for someone else to show up. It's just how they want us to do it."
How, and I do say this respectfully sir as I agree with 99% of your posts, can you keep control if you are alone and get disemboweled or get an artery hit from a blade?
I can be very physically in control without being at a physical disadvantage within subject's workspace.
I think we fundamentally agree on bearing and subject management but are getting hung up on hard and fast streetside rigor.
There comes a point where subject cannot be talked to. If we must get to that point, I want to be at full advantage.
The Barney Miller Hill Street Blues shakedown makes me have to get in a position of disadvantage. We either wait, guy can slowly empty his pockets, or homeboy can lay on his belly.
I've been dinged up more than a few times doing this and most were actually unavoidable. I either was outnumbered, had poor back up, or a case of shit happens.
I try not to bully up on folks. I believe demeanor is 70% of everything. But you aren't superman and neither am I.
This I learned several months ago the hard way.
It's horse sense. If it's just someone strange and you have just enough ARS...we talk and deal. If ARS is blurring heavily into PC we put subject at the most amount of reasonable physical disadvantage until we get it sorted out.
I will say this, MY personal wellbeing trumps Civvies, nuns, other popo, schoolkids, et al.
If I am out of play then I am worthless. My wellbeing comes first. Not so much in a sense of cowardice but more if I feel legitimately threatened; somebody is going down fvcking hard and if they get hurt, oh well. I don't mean bullshit. I mean body language, bladed stance, haply feet, looking sideways, or recklessly eyeballing my handgun.
YMMV
It's fallen out of favor, but years back we would tell guys to lay eagle palms up. But if nobody got arrested (physically jailed) and somebody bitched then it got heavily frowned upon.
But after midnight, fvck your feelings
Last time I put somebody down at gun point alone that is exactly how I did it.
Down on the ground. Do it now.
Arms out to your side, palms up.
Don't move.
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