View Full Version : DEVGRU: forget QCD, use MMA instead!
Yes, that is from the Ashton Carter, a liberal congressman in Washington, SEALS should employ MMA tactics instead of you know.... the standard double tap!
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/04/06/lawmaker-raises-concerns-about-navy-seal-fighting-techniques.html
A veteran in Congress is calling on the secretary of defense to examine the current Navy SEAL combat training program, saying it's less effective than a previous method and not conducive to SEAL operations.
Rep. Duncan Hunter, a Republican from California, former Marine officer and member of the House Armed Services Committee, sent an April 5 letter to Defense Secretary Ashton Carter requesting that Carter provide "clarity" on Naval Special Warfare's 2011 move to replace its Close Quarters Defense institutionalized training system with Mixed Martial Arts.
"I have concerns with the process for considering and awarding the contracts that have led to the removal of CQD from SEAL training," Hunter wrote. "NSW operators and leadership have consistently determined CQD to be the most operationally effective training to prepare SEALs for combat, evidenced by more than 11,000 positive critiques and numerous complimentary reports."
Leonidas24
04-08-16, 01:35
That's not at all what the article said. A representative from California, raised a point that in 2011 NSW transitioned from institutionalized CQD training to MMA and ground fighting techniques. This particular representative cited some 11,000 positive review reports from commanders showing that CQD was more effective, and stated that the CQD training for each SEAL only cost $395, compared to $2,900 for MMA lessons. The lesson here is to read the article, and don't let nosy idiots from Washington stick their noses in things they know nothing about.
There is more too it, Commander Rear Adm. Brian Losey lost his chance at getting a second star because he was labeled a "whistle blower", Rear Adm. Timothy Szymanski is the new guy, who is the one giving the lucrative contracts that will not go through the standard Federal Acquisition Regulations. Ash Carter (Sec. Defense) is helping push this agenda. And they were talking about $2900 per hour per person!! Teaching 35 guys for 10 hours is a $1.3 million dollar pay day!
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/news/Politician-whines-about-SEAL-MMA-training-456798
https://www.gconew.com/military/288570/lawmaker-raises-concerns-about-navy-seal-fighting-techniques.html
I agree with the above articles, let the team guys make the call. They know what works for them. I do not agree that it should cost as much as cited.
Hell, anyone know if politicians tried this crap with Rangers in the early 90's when they brought in Joyce Gracie; a decision that proved effective and ultimately led to MAC and SOCP?
Something tells me the CA Congressman knows somebody who owns a MMA school and has a side deal in mind.
Let the SEALs be SEALs and let their experiences decide what is most effective and useful, and let the guys in speedos rolling around with other guys do their thing.
I agree with the above articles, let the team guys make the call. They know what works for them. I do not agree that it should cost as much as cited.
Hell, anyone know if politicians tried this crap with Rangers in the early 90's when they brought in Joyce Gracie; a decision that proved effective and ultimately led to MAC and SOCP?
I was at Benning in 1993 when Romero "Jacare" Cavalcanti brought BJJ to Regiment via Matt Larsen - Joyce Gracie had nothing to do with it. I continued to train under Jacare's organization, Alliance, for most of my time in the Army and for a good while afterwards. Larson still had a big Alliance school on the Phoenix City side of the river last time I was at Benning in 2012. Yes, there was some growing pains as the 75th and then the Army adopted the MAC Program. Grappling skills were heavily emphasized in the early iterations, and striking took on more emphasis by the time I left about 4 years ago with plenty of people complaining as it evolved. However, it was not overtly political outside of the Army as I recall.
Personally, I think that a switch to MMA would be a step backwards. MMA is a sport. Combatives is about killing or incapacitating an enemy with had, foot, knife, stick, or any weapon of opportunity. There is some overlap but I can see the concern where certain skill sets might get overlooked.
There is more too it, Commander Rear Adm. Brian Losey lost his chance at getting a second star because he was labeled a "whistle blower", Rear Adm. Timothy Szymanski is the new guy, who is the one giving the lucrative contracts that will not go through the standard Federal Acquisition Regulations. Ash Carter (Sec. Defense) is helping push this agenda. And they were talking about $2900 per hour per person!! Teaching 35 guys for 10 hours is a $1.3 million dollar pay day!
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/news/Politician-whines-about-SEAL-MMA-training-456798
https://www.gconew.com/military/288570/lawmaker-raises-concerns-about-navy-seal-fighting-techniques.html
Just so everybody is clear, Losey was not denied a star for being a whistle blower. He was denied the star because he retaliated against whistle blower(s) who had cited him for some relatively minor BS unrelated to this MMA matter.
I was at Benning in 1993 when Romero "Jacare" Cavalcanti brought BJJ to Regiment via Matt Larsen - Joyce Gracie had nothing to do with it. I continued to train under Jacare's organization, Alliance, for most of my time in the Army and for a good while afterwards. Larson still had a big Alliance school on the Phoenix City side of the river last time I was at Benning in 2012. Yes, there was some growing pains as the 75th and then the Army adopted the MAC Program. Grappling skills were heavily emphasized in the early iterations, and striking took on more emphasis by the time I left about 4 years ago with plenty of people complaining as it evolved. However, it was not overtly political outside of the Army as I recall.
Personally, I think that a switch to MMA would be a step backwards. MMA is a sport. Combatives is about killing or incapacitating an enemy with had, foot, knife, stick, or any weapon of opportunity. There is some overlap but I can see the concern where certain skill sets might get overlooked.
I could have sworn when we were introduced to MAC in OSUT the video they played for us talked about Gracie. Hell that was eight years ago though haha. I like MAC and enjoyed training in it. I wish I had took the time and moved up levels before getting out. I still remember like 98% of it though.
Duncan Hunter is a douche who thinks his service, and his dad's service, give them carte blanche to decide how the military is to be run. For some reason he has a real hard-on for the SEALs.
I am glad we don't have that prick in NC breathing down the neck of Camp Lejeune and Ft. Bragg.
Duncan Hunter is a douche who thinks his service, and his dad's service, give them carte blanche to decide how the military is to be run. For some reason he has a real hard-on for the SEALs.
I am glad we don't have that prick in NC breathing down the neck of Camp Lejeune and Ft. Bragg.
Hunter is actually doing his job of providing oversight
He is hated by many leaders in uniform and I know Amos could not stand him. Much of this has to do with the fact military leaders cannot pull the Jedi mind trick on him and willing to call bull shit when they try it
There is more too it, Commander Rear Adm. Brian Losey lost his chance at getting a second star because he was labeled a "whistle blower", Rear Adm. Timothy Szymanski is the new guy, who is the one giving the lucrative contracts that will not go through the standard Federal Acquisition Regulations. Ash Carter (Sec. Defense) is helping push this agenda. And they were talking about $2900 per hour per person!! Teaching 35 guys for 10 hours is a $1.3 million dollar pay day!
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/news/Politician-whines-about-SEAL-MMA-training-456798
https://www.gconew.com/military/288570/lawmaker-raises-concerns-about-navy-seal-fighting-techniques.html
Was this a train the trainer event, or are they just running everyone through a local MMA program?
Hunter is actually doing his job of providing oversight
He is hated by many leaders in uniform and I know Amos could not stand him. Much of this has to do with the fact military leaders cannot pull the Jedi mind trick on him and willing to call bull shit when they try it
I see you are at Sodom on Potomac so maybe you have insight. As I no longer wear the uniform and am on the Right Coast my information may be skewed; I do have some colleagues that work for senators and congressmen and hear the back-channel stuff. So, all that said, it seems he is on a witch hunt and has an issue with NSW specifically. My friends in his district says the Marines and most other Naval activities don't share the same level of scrutiny as does NSW.
Still glad the prick doesn't cover NC.
Something tells me the CA Congressman knows somebody who owns a MMA school and has a side deal in mind.
Let the SEALs be SEALs and let their experiences decide what is most effective and useful, and let the guys in speedos rolling around with other guys do their thing.
Maybe I am missing something here... I read that article as someone (Navy) replaced the QCD with MMA in 2011 and the congressman is asking why. I do not read into the article that Duncan Hunter is proposing MMA but rather the QCD (which, again I am reading this right, is cheaper and more effective). I read this as Hunter saying MMA is not as effective. Am I wrong here? If so, how so?
Don't know squat about Hunter, but even a broken clock is right twice a day. Seems like is wondering why NSW went away from a cost effective and supposedly working solution to something that seems to cost round 6x and has unknown real world applications. I have, thankfully, little experience in needing to go hands on with a trained and determined opponent (something that NSW must be prepared to deal with). My thoughts have always been that the opponent needs to be put into the dirt jiffy quick and not this face to face sparring that I see in commercial MMA.
Where does the $$ point??
I could have sworn when we were introduced to MAC in OSUT the video they played for us talked about Gracie. Hell that was eight years ago though haha. I like MAC and enjoyed training in it. I wish I had took the time and moved up levels before getting out. I still remember like 98% of it though.
Jacare was one of only six black belt students under the great Rolls Gracie who was Royce's cousin and the family champion until his untimely death. Jacare is also one of the great teachers in sport BJJ having coached Fabio Grugel, Marcelo Garcia, Roberto Traven, Rubens Charles, and several other world champions. However, people often think that it was Royce who introduced BJJ to the Army but it was really Jacare whose Alliance HQ is just up the road in Atlanta. He would drive down on weekends to help Larsen who was a NCO in 2/75th. I suppose that the confusion is because Royce was making headlines in the UFC at the same time in 1993 which probably made the chain of command more receptive to the change.
Maybe I am missing something here... I read that article as someone (Navy) replaced the QCD with MMA in 2011 and the congressman is asking why. I do not read into the article that Duncan Hunter is proposing MMA but rather the QCD (which, again I am reading this right, is cheaper and more effective). I read this as Hunter saying MMA is not as effective. Am I wrong here? If so, how so?
You are correct.
Defaultmp3
04-08-16, 12:49
My thoughts have always been that the opponent needs to be put into the dirt jiffy quick and not this face to face sparring that I see in commercial MMA.The sparring in the competition occurs because the opponents are both quite competent in fighting, and know the counters to most of the basic moves. This is why very high level BJJ competitions can seem rather boring, because both sides know the moves and counter-moves. Against someone with no real training in grappling, the fight would be over in seconds.
Why do people who don't know how to fight try to tell people who stomp ass everyday what they should be doing?
Primus Pilum
04-08-16, 13:55
So i grew up right down the road from the CQD HQ on the eastern shore of md. Always passed this crappy little building on the way to ocean city and wondered what it was for. Seemed like some corporate gimmick or scam. One time a little over a decade ago me and a buddy (both army combatives instructors, Him being a 75th boy) stopped in to see what it was about. Wall to Wall mats and trailers full of ammo and ordinance. A few gov plates in the parking lot. Asked about becoming instructors there and they basically told us to **** off.
Always thought it was a weird location with little creek being many hours away and the closes Spec ops being the B/20th SF . Turns out they do alot of FPS, DHS, state dept type training so the location made a bit more sense.
Anyone else remember those ridiculous CQD vertical grips back in the day? Looked like a sex toy LOL.
Primus Pilum
04-08-16, 13:58
Maybe I am missing something here... I read that article as someone (Navy) replaced the QCD with MMA in 2011 and the congressman is asking why. I do not read into the article that Duncan Hunter is proposing MMA but rather the QCD (which, again I am reading this right, is cheaper and more effective). I read this as Hunter saying MMA is not as effective. Am I wrong here? If so, how so?
Reads more like the People who own/run the CQD training system are pissed they are cut out of the money and prestige of training a SMU. So what do you do when you don't get your way? Complain to congress.
Congress members don't make a stink unless they have an angle. Why the hell would a politician give a shit what training philosophy a military unit uses?
Pulled this from wiki... sounds like Mr. Hunter would make a good M4C member:
Hunter was born in San Diego and graduated from Granite Hills High School in El Cajon. He earned a degree in Business Administration from San Diego State University and then worked as an information technology business analyst. Hunter resigned the day after the September 11 attacks and joined the United States Marine Corps. He attended Officer Candidates School at Marine Corps Base Quantico and after graduation, he was commissioned as a second lieutenant. He subsequently served as a field artillery officer in the 1st Marine Division after the 2003 invasion of Iraq and completed a second tour in Fallujah, Iraq, in 2004. During his second tour, he participated in Operation Vigilant Resolve. In September 2005, Hunter was honorably discharged from active duty but remained in the Marine Corps Reserve. He then started a residential development company. In 2007, he was recalled to active duty and deployed to Afghanistan in support of the War in Afghanistan. Hunter was honorably discharged from active duty again in December 2007, but continues to serve in the Marine Corps Reserve
Primus Pilum
04-08-16, 17:35
Pulled this from wiki... sounds like Mr. Hunter would make a good M4C member:
Hunter was born in San Diego and graduated from Granite Hills High School in El Cajon. He earned a degree in Business Administration from San Diego State University and then worked as an information technology business analyst. Hunter resigned the day after the September 11 attacks and joined the United States Marine Corps. He attended Officer Candidates School at Marine Corps Base Quantico and after graduation, he was commissioned as a second lieutenant. He subsequently served as a field artillery officer in the 1st Marine Division after the 2003 invasion of Iraq and completed a second tour in Fallujah, Iraq, in 2004. During his second tour, he participated in Operation Vigilant Resolve. In September 2005, Hunter was honorably discharged from active duty but remained in the Marine Corps Reserve. He then started a residential development company. In 2007, he was recalled to active duty and deployed to Afghanistan in support of the War in Afghanistan. Hunter was honorably discharged from active duty again in December 2007, but continues to serve in the Marine Corps Reserve
A politician who is not a slime ball does not exist. No matter the background or accomplishments.
Reads more like the People who own/run the CQD training system are pissed they are cut out of the money and prestige of training a SMU. So what do you do when you don't get your way? Complain to congress.
Congress members don't make a stink unless they have an angle. Why the hell would a politician give a shit what training philosophy a military unit uses?
It is part of the Congressman's job on the committee he sits to ask those questions
One of the reasons Hunter is disliked is he actual attempts to make the services be good stewards of the people's money.
A politician who is not a slime ball does not exist. No matter the background or accomplishments.
Yeah, so guys like Ryan Zinke (Congressman and Team 6 SEAL) and Duncan Hunter (Congressman and Marine) are slime balls? Now, that's some retarded shit right there. Enjoy the taste of that glass.
Goddamn I love the ignore list.
Jacare was one of only six black belt students under the great Rolls Gracie who was Royce's cousin and the family champion until his untimely death. Jacare is also one of the great teachers in sport BJJ having coached Fabio Grugel, Marcelo Garcia, Roberto Traven, Rubens Charles, and several other world champions. However, people often think that it was Royce who introduced BJJ to the Army but it was really Jacare whose Alliance HQ is just up the road in Atlanta. He would drive down on weekends to help Larsen who was a NCO in 2/75th. I suppose that the confusion is because Royce was making headlines in the UFC at the same time in 1993 which probably made the chain of command more receptive to the change.
Thanks. I was way off haha. I must educate myself further.
A politician who is not a slime ball does not exist. No matter the background or accomplishments.
You need to read Matthew 7:18 and 12:33
Dieter and CQD also has a fair number of detractors as well.
The acceptance and proliferation of MMA type training isn't just limited to NSW, if CQD was so great- why doesn't the Army or USMC adopt it?
I don't what the source is for Rep. Hunter's cost comparison is but it doesn't seem right to me, as if the numbers were deliberately manipulated to show absolute minimum cost for CQD and maximum cost for MMA.
I agree with others that this seems to be motivated by sour grapes from the CQD crowd
VooDoo6Actual
04-09-16, 10:00
Yawn, pure Social Darwinism. Whether it's Dieters CQD, Peterson's SCAR's, Gracie's Jui Jitsu et al it's going to be this: the Indian not the arrow, singer not the song...
Edward Bernay's, PT Barum, Joesph Goebbels, Mark Twain, Carl Sagan, Albert Camus, Marcus Tillius Cicero et al were completely right.
"nihil sub sole novum"
QED
Primus Pilum
04-09-16, 11:00
Yeah, so guys like Ryan Zinke (Congressman and Team 6 SEAL) and Duncan Hunter (Congressman and Marine) are slime balls? Now, that's some retarded shit right there. Enjoy the taste of that glass.
Goddamn I love the ignore list.
One does does not get elected to the highest offices without selling their soul. Where do you think the money and support from the parties come from. Don't be naive.
McCain, Kerry, Inoyue, Duke Cunningham, all highly decorated service members who are disgraceful pieces of shit. THe list goes on.....
sniperfrog
04-09-16, 22:59
Yawn, pure Social Darwinism. Whether it's Dieters CQD, Peterson's SCAR's, Gracie's Jui Jitsu et al it's going to be this: the Indian not the arrow, singer not the song...
Edward Bernay's, PT Barum, Joesph Goebbels, Mark Twain, Carl Sagan, Albert Camus, Marcus Tillius Cicero et al were completely right.
"nihil sub sole novum"
QED
This sums it up perfectly.
Whats funny is that the SEAL Teams originally trained under JKD/Kali guy Paul Vunak back in the late '80s. Paul mostly taught Muay Thai, some Fillipino MA, and Gracie Jiu-Jitsu back when no one ever heard of the Gracies. He certified Frank Cucci in JKD/Kali who then went on to get certified under Vunaks instructor Dan Inosanto. Vunak was basically teaching MMA back then, only more brutal than what you see in the "Octagon". So the Teams have really come full circle.
The CQD stuff had a kind of cult like following in the Teams. Some guys thought it was the greatest thing ever. Other guys thought it was crap. A lot of guys trained at Cuccis' gym on their own dime. But like VooDoo6 says: Its the Indian not the arrow.
sniperfrog
04-09-16, 23:11
The Petersons SCARs stuff was rather comical.
This sums it up perfectly.
Whats funny is that the SEAL Teams originally trained under JKD/Kali guy Paul Vunak back in the late '80s. Paul mostly taught Muay Thai, some Fillipino MA, and Gracie Jiu-Jitsu back when no one ever heard of the Gracies. He certified Frank Cucci in JKD/Kali who then went on to get certified under Vunaks instructor Dan Inosanto. Vunak was basically teaching MMA back then, only more brutal than what you see in the "Octagon". So the Teams have really come full circle.
The CQD stuff had a kind of cult like following in the Teams. Some guys thought it was the greatest thing ever. Other guys thought it was crap. A lot of guys trained at Cuccis' gym on their own dime. But like VooDoo6 says: Its the Indian not the arrow.
Cucci is a now BJJ black belt under Pedro Sauer (one of Rickson Gracie's students) and started BJJ back in the early 1990's. I think that he was teaching BJJ as early as the 1994-1995 time frame at his VA Beach school (Linxx Academy as I recall) as a blue or purple belt when I was a just getting my blue belt. Back then, legit BJJ black belts were very rare in the States and it was the norm to have a blue or maybe a purple belt teaching BJJ fundamentals at a martial arts school that focused other disciplines. I seem to recall that Frank was more focused on Muay Thai and the other striking disciples that you mentioned at the VA Beach head school and its Richmond, VA affiliate which is where I trained whenever I came home to Richmond to visit my parents.
Anyway, after spending 15 years in the Army, a couple in LE, and a shit ton of hours on mats and in cages, I've come to the conclusion that the best fighting style for soldiers is one that masters some fundamentals of striking, grappling, and knife/stick while most importantly being rapidly ADAPTABLE to an individual soldier's abilities.
Yeah, so guys like Ryan Zinke (Congressman and Team 6 SEAL)... are slime balls? Now, that's some retarded shit right there. Enjoy the taste of that glass.Haha Team 6. This made the rounds a bit ago I assume it made it on here?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n80ED088t5A
Haha Team 6. This made the rounds a bit ago I assume it made it on here?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n80ED088t5A
What you posted had nothing to do with Zinke.
Yes, I'm aware that he got the boot from his second tour with DEVGRU over some unauthorized travel payments in 1999. No, I don't think that it means he stole anyone's valor. The guy served in the SEALs until his retirement in 2008.
VooDoo6Actual
04-10-16, 08:53
The Petersons SCARs stuff was rather comical.
Agreed. The "Vu" & Cucci are real deal.
I remember a downrange gig & a few guys were SCAR's certified etc. We emptied out collective cups onsite & I was watching his movements & thought WTF was that ? seriously ?
Some of the Drunken Monkey & Systema stuff reminds of same. Nuff said.
Sensei I was comparing him to Greitens as his service record is overwhelmingly real compared to Greitens. Looking at my post it is badly ambiguous. Apologies.
Sensei I was comparing him to Greitens as his service record is overwhelmingly real compared to Greitens. Looking at my post it is badly ambiguous. Apologies.
No problems. Written communication has its limitations. Carry on and enjoy what's left of the weekend. ;)
sniperfrog
04-10-16, 13:14
Cucci is a now BJJ black belt under Pedro Sauer (one of Rickson Gracie's students) and started BJJ back in the early 1990's. I think that he was teaching BJJ as early as the 1994-1995 time frame at his VA Beach school (Linxx Academy as I recall) as a blue or purple belt when I was a just getting my blue belt. Back then, legit BJJ black belts were very rare in the States and it was the norm to have a blue or maybe a purple belt teaching BJJ fundamentals at a martial arts school that focused other disciplines. I seem to recall that Frank was more focused on Muay Thai and the other striking disciples that you mentioned at the VA Beach head school and its Richmond, VA affiliate which is where I trained whenever I came home to Richmond to visit my parents.
Anyway, after spending 15 years in the Army, a couple in LE, and a shit ton of hours on mats and in cages, I've come to the conclusion that the best fighting style for soldiers is one that masters some fundamentals of striking, grappling, and knife/stick while most importantly being rapidly ADAPTABLE to an individual soldier's abilities.
Cucci also is an Ajarn in Muay Thai under Chai Sirisute. I believe he got his BJJ blue belt under Rorion and then started training with Pedro. He got his Bjj black belt back in the early 2000s.
The Richmond, Va school is run by Pat Tray. I don't think he is a Lynx affiliate but him and Cucci are former teammates. He was another Team guy that Vunak certified the same time as Cucci.
He also has a bjj black belt under Rigan Machado.
sniperfrog
04-10-16, 13:22
Agreed. The "Vu" & Cucci are real deal.
I remember a downrange gig & a few guys were SCAR's certified etc. We emptied out collective cups onsite & I was watching his movements & thought WTF was that ? seriously ?
Some of the Drunken Monkey & Systema stuff reminds of same. Nuff said.
We used to joke about all the numbered techniques in SCARs.
SCARs move number 98: the bitch slap
SCARs move number 99: the reverse bitch slap.
(Note: These aren't real SCARs techniques...but they should be)
VooDoo6Actual
04-10-16, 14:26
Ah yes Pat Tray. He has a pic that hangs in Guro Dan's office or at least was.
I know some of the back stories about SCAR's & players & Guro Dan's as well. Not going to get into here & don't trust the environment or politics. Nuff said.
The "Mako Jitsu" at NSW Group 1 was another interesting story.
MountainRaven
04-10-16, 14:41
What you posted had nothing to do with Zinke.
Yes, I'm aware that he got the boot from his second tour with DEVGRU over some unauthorized travel payments in 1999. No, I don't think that it means he stole anyone's valor. The guy served in the SEALs until his retirement in 2008.
The only issue with Zinke and "stolen valor" is that he allows others to say that he was a SEAL Team Six Commander. He was with SEAL Team Six/DEVGRU and he did retire at the rank of Commander, so it's technically true (which is the best kind of true), but it can easily mislead those who are less familiar with military ranks and terminology. IOW, it creates the perception that he commanded SEAL Team Six when he did not, in fact, do any such thing, and neither he nor the people writing these things appear to ever make any effort to clarify that, yes, he was a Commander in the Navy, and yes, he was with DEVGRU, but no, he did not command DEVGRU.
I have also heard - but do not have any corroborating evidence - that Zinke is persona non grata within the SOF/SEAL community.
Cucci also is an Ajarn in Muay Thai under Chai Sirisute. I believe he got his BJJ blue belt under Rorion and then started training with Pedro. He got his Bjj black belt back in the early 2000s.
The Richmond, Va school is run by Pat Tray. I don't think he is a Lynx affiliate but him and Cucci are former teammates. He was another Team guy that Vunak certified the same time as Cucci.
He also has a bjj black belt under Rigan Machado.
I think that Joe Gray (another Pedro Sauer black belt) and Cucci had a gig going in Richmond under the Linxx banner for a couple of years back in the 90's. This was way before either had their black belts and my memory may be off. If you know Frank, and I bet you do judging by your screen name (I've only met him in passing), and he says that I got it wrong, then I gladly accept the correction. There were a number of Team guys that would stop in and several Linxx fighters competed in local MMA bouts around Richmond. I left VA and eventually landed back under an Alliance affiliate in NC and never learned what happened to their business relationship.
From the Army side of things, MAC definitely started out grappling centric, but gravitated to a more balanced approach. I think it works fine for the size of our service and diverse mission profile. In fact, I'm just grateful that the Army his been such a strong supporter of combat and shooting sports in general.
sniperfrog
04-11-16, 12:37
I think that Joe Gray (another Pedro Sauer black belt) and Cucci had a gig going in Richmond under the Linxx banner for a couple of years back in the 90's. This was way before either had their black belts and my memory may be off. If you know Frank, and I bet you do judging by your screen name (I've only met him in passing), and he says that I got it wrong, then I gladly accept the correction. There were a number of Team guys that would stop in and several Linxx fighters competed in local MMA bouts around Richmond. I left VA and eventually landed back under an Alliance affiliate in NC and never learned what happened to their business relationship.
From the Army side of things, MAC definitely started out grappling centric, but gravitated to a more balanced approach. I think it works fine for the size of our service and diverse mission profile. In fact, I'm just grateful that the Army his been such a strong supporter of combat and shooting sports in general.
I never knew Lynx had an affiliate in Richmond. I only new about the Va Beach schools. I knew Pat Tray was up there and he used to train with Frank so I just assumed that's what you were talking about. I only met Frank one time. I was always to busy with work ups/deployments to get into his school.
I train at a school now in Tennessee and the instructor had also trained under Vunak and the Gracie's.
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