Rob O'Neill, Navy SEAL that killed OBL, arrested for DUI (developing story) [Archive]

7.62NATO

04-08-16, 19:37

Just ran out of luck, or penalized for disclosing confidential information?

Police arrested retired Navy SEAL Rob O'Neill -- who said he fired the shots that killed Osama bin Laden -- for driving under the influence early Friday, according to the Butte-Silver Bow County sheriff's department

O'Neill, 39, was found sleeping behind the wheel of a blue 2005 Nissan Sentra at the Town Pump, Montana and Platinum, about 2:30 a.m. The vehicle was running and the tail lights were on, said Undersheriff George Skuletich.

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/mtstandard.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/4/97/49768b77-c99e-5f3f-aa15-56f31827b130/5707ddf39d384.image.jpg

http://mtstandard.com/news/local/police-arrest-retired-navy-seal-rob-o-neill-for-driving/article_4890c60b-30a8-5600-b3b8-3f0a34bd4c08.html

Inkslinger

04-08-16, 19:43

The thing that shocks me the most is that a Navy SEAL is driving a 2005 Nissan Sentra.

7.62NATO

04-08-16, 19:47

The thing that shocks me the most is that a Navy SEAL is driving a 2005 Nissan Sentra.

You can do a lot worse if you're trying to stay unnoticed. In my experience, retired, seasoned SOF personnel tend to drive unconspicuous vehicles.

MountainRaven

04-08-16, 19:49

The thing that shocks me the most is that a Navy SEAL is driving a 2005 Nissan Sentra.

A local retired SEAL who is also an instructor was driving a Honda Fit, IIRC, when I met him back before he was instructing (he was back in college at the time, with a wife and kids - at the time, he was either broke or a frugal spender: I think he had a Glock 22 and a WASR at the time - he had to borrow a rifle to go hunting with).

ETA: Now his training company owns a Nissan Frontier or Titan. In any event, I can't imagine anything underhanded going on. Sounds like a pretty straight forward case of being caught doing stupid shit while trying to adjust to civilian life. But Butte-Silverbow is pretty blue country and a union stronghold.

Firefly

04-08-16, 20:16

Reduce it to reckless, let him plead nolo, maybe some DUI school. Go forth, pecado no mas

ggammell

04-08-16, 20:35

You can do a lot worse if you're trying to stay unnoticed. In my experience, retired, seasoned SOF personnel tend to drive unconspicuous vehicles.

The sights you see if you took a photo of a parking lot from a regular infantry unit and one from an elite SOF unit. Jacked up F250s in the first. Toyota Sienna's in the other.

Shorts

04-08-16, 20:46

That's a very common scenario for finding a driver under the influence. Doesn't sound nefarious.

SteyrAUG

04-08-16, 20:46

Reduce it to reckless, let him plead nolo, maybe some DUI school. Go forth, pecado no mas

While I'm normally inclined to give the guy who shot Osama free beer for life. My first problem is he announced he was the person who did it and wrote a book. I think that is poor form for people who are supposed to be elite and the keepers of secrets. It should be enough that he and everyone involved knows who did what.

I appreciate the fact that it "seems" he realized he shouldn't be driving and pulled over. But he was DUI at some point and could have just as easily killed somebody. I'm not impressed that he refused a breathalyzer test either. They should have then drawn his blood like they'd have done with most of the rest of the population.

Looks like a first offense and a misdemeanor at that, but if I would expect anyone to know better, it would be somebody like O'Neill. If the story was "Navy SEALs daughter killed by DUI suspect" people would feel much differently about it.

Dist. Expert 26

04-08-16, 21:25

I don't know if it applies to SEALs, but I distinctly remember the author of "Kill Bin Laden" saying that he would likely be blacklisted for writing the book. If that holds true and the dude's buddies won't talk to him anymore I don't blame him for drinking too much.

Should he have driven? No. But being an A type personality, as many of us here are, I'd imagine he thought he could handle it. At least he had the sense to pull over.

MountainRaven

04-08-16, 21:32

While I'm normally inclined to give the guy who shot Osama free beer for life. My first problem is he announced he was the person who did it and wrote a book. I think that is poor form for people who are supposed to be elite and the keepers of secrets. It should be enough that he and everyone involved knows who did what.

I appreciate the fact that it "seems" he realized he shouldn't be driving and pulled over. But he was DUI at some point and could have just as easily killed somebody. I'm not impressed that he refused a breathalyzer test either. They should have then drawn his blood like they'd have done with most of the rest of the population.

Looks like a first offense and a misdemeanor at that, but if I would expect anyone to know better, it would be somebody like O'Neill. If the story was "Navy SEALs daughter killed by DUI suspect" people would feel much differently about it.

I'm pretty sure most folks in Montana who have a record have DUIs on it. Often multiples.

Not saying that as a point of pride or anything - just that it makes him just another Montanan with a criminal record. Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if the city of Butte and Butte-Silverbow basically fill their coffers with fines collected from DUIs on St. Patrick's Day, when people from all across Montana go to the most Irish city in the state to get drunk and pretend to be Irish.

T2C

04-08-16, 21:45

Maybe Bob can write a book about it.

Sensei

04-08-16, 22:10

Couple thoughts:

1) It's probably not the first time that he drove drunk, and a DUI is often a warning sign that substance abuse (not just alcohol) is a problem. The articles that I read claim that he refused a breathelizer and claimed that he was taking Ambien. Thus, I'm not 100% clear about his issues but I suspect that alcohol may not be all that is in play.

2) Many war heroes who Find themselves in the public spotlight do not adapt well to the situation or the period of irrelevance once the media is done with their 5 minutes. This is especially true for those who seek out fame. A good case study on this phenomenon is the Flag Raisers of Iwo Jima. Of the ones who made it off the island alive, only one made peace with his fame. I hope fore his own sake that O'Neill can find peace.

The Dumb Gun Collector

04-08-16, 22:13

Dismiss. You can take your ambien naps in any parking lot you want if you shoot UBL.LOL.

SteyrAUG

04-09-16, 00:35

I'm pretty sure most folks in Montana who have a record have DUIs on it. Often multiples.

Not saying that as a point of pride or anything - just that it makes him just another Montanan with a criminal record. Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if the city of Butte and Butte-Silverbow basically fill their coffers with fines collected from DUIs on St. Patrick's Day, when people from all across Montana go to the most Irish city in the state to get drunk and pretend to be Irish.

You actually think the geography of Montana has a predetermining effect of making people prone to alcoholism and driving under the influence?

That's even more retarded than suggesting a person HAS to sell crack and run in a gang because they are from the hood.

I can think of several FL counties that are DUI heavy, but if we magically took those same people back in time and raised them in any of the other 48 states, I'm sure 90% would still be **** ups.

THCDDM4

04-09-16, 00:44

You can do a lot worse if you're trying to stay unnoticed. In my experience, retired, seasoned SOF personnel tend to drive unconspicuous vehicles.

First off, "unconspicous" is not a word. Inconspicuous, is however.

Second- what's your "experience" with retired SOF? Other than the Internet connection bought and paid for by others/tax payers dime...

Dist. Expert 26

04-09-16, 00:54

tb-av

04-09-16, 01:38

elephant

04-09-16, 02:22

I'm sure public life is night and day compared to Seal Team 6 life. I hope its just a "one too many" night on the town and not a newfound lifestyle. Ambien can defiantly do weird things, so can Zoloft. I was hospitalized for 4 days years ago after fainting after waking up after sleeping with the help of Ambien.

I'm curious, The guy who wrote "No easy day", Matt Bissonnette aka Mark Owen hides his face and wants to remain anonymous (other than writing the book,"No Easy Day", and the special feature on CBS 60 Minutes)
Rob O'Neill came out over a year ago and said he was the actual guy who shot OBL. He was on 20/20 or Dateline
I have a 2013 Esquire Magazine titled "The man who shot Bin Laden is Screwed", and the article talks about the man who shot OBL, retired just shy of 20 years and not receiving VA assistance or retirement pay. Also notes that the shooter is now anti war, pacifist and no longer owns any firearms.

Not trying to start a debate but do you think he is the "ACTUALL" shooter? 3 people have claimed to have killed OBL and Matt Bissonnette and Rob O'Neill have never made an appearance together or even mentioned one another . You would think one of them would back up the other guys story since they were the first men to come face to face with a living breathing OBL before hosing him down. Just saying.

ABNAK

04-09-16, 08:07

26 Inf

04-09-16, 08:20

First off, "unconspicous" is not a word. Inconspicuous, is however.

Second- what's your "experience" with retired SOF? Other than the Internet connection bought and paid for by others/tax payers dime...

Hey there leggo, why don't you back the eff off? He's served his suspension, let him be. Tell us about your experiences to the contrary.

26 Inf

04-09-16, 08:39

2) Many war heroes who Find themselves in the public spotlight do not adapt well to the situation or the period of irrelevance once the media is done with their 5 minutes. This is especially true for those who seek out fame. A good case study on this phenomenon is the Flag Raisers of Iwo Jima. Of the ones who made it off the island alive, only one made peace with his fame. I hope fore his own sake that O'Neill can find peace.

I'm probably in the way, way, minority here, but to me you kind of vacate hero status when you start talking in public about the dudes you've bagged. To me it is one thing to share knowledge learned from the experiences you've had, and another thing to attempt to build yourself up by reporting those experiences.

To me there is a certain amount of discernment that takes place in determining who is who and what is what in whom I choose to deify in the realm of heroism. Both these guy's have passed now, but my definition of hero runs more towards the guy who sacked up and climbed into the gunners turret for his 25 missions over Europe, and the guy that made 3 landings in the Pacific. That guy was my best friends father, he got mad when his wife got him a combat wounded - Purple Heart tag for his car, took it back and got a regular tag. I was in awe of him and he never said a freaking would about his WWII experiences other than tell his son how disappointed he was when he bought a Toyota.

I sincerely hope he doesn't have any serious issues going on and this was just a night out gone too far. Like him or not, the dude was still on the very tip of the spear for a long time. That should warrant some level of respect even in the face of stupid decisions.

And I completely agree with this thought - it takes something to step up and serve when the vast majority of us don't.

Averageman

04-09-16, 08:50

Whatever the cause, I wish him well.
The media is pretty quick to blast this stuff out there, aren't they?

HKGuns

04-09-16, 08:52

I'd expect a high speed operator, trained in evasive driving skills, to take the officers on a high speed pursuit! Sleeping in the parking lot doesn't sound very high speed......

Glad he is ok and hope there aren't larger issues under the hood.

ETA: I probably would have driven him home if I were the cop who found him. (I am not a LEO)

Pilot1

04-09-16, 08:52

He may have PTSD, who knows. Sounds like he needs to get some counselling. Ambien is BAD SH*T.

26 Inf

04-09-16, 09:23

ETA: I probably would have driven him home if I were the cop who found him. (I am not a LEO)

Don't think that way.

Over 60% of the fatality accidents which occur during the evening hours involve drunk drivers. The average driver arrested for DUI has committed the offense 50-80 times in the previous year. Arrest them all, the ride home doesn't provide enough deterrence. You can't have a good time drinking iced tea, sodas, or water, when you are out on the town, get someone who can to act as driver. Mr. O'Neill should have planned the mission completely, he didn't.

THCDDM4

04-09-16, 09:26

Hey there leggo, why don't you back the eff off? He's served his suspension, let him be. Tell us about your experiences to the contrary.

Name calling, nice job their buddy. He's a grown man- I doubt he needs you to be his internet nanny bro. And I don't need you telling me what to do either.

my SOF buddies are all over the place, different just like everybody else. Not a single box to put them all in.

One in jail not driving at all. One with a balls dangling monster truck. One with a factory Dodge Ram truck. One with a Toyota 4Runner.

They're Just people man, make mistakes like all the other people, drive whatever they want just like all the other people.

Mr Oneil got caught doing a baddy, so he'll pay for his actions. Consequences. Just like the rest of us. Shouldn't be different sets of rules just because he's a badass warrior with cred.

Hmac

04-09-16, 09:30

Don't think that way.

Over 60% of the fatality accidents which occur during the evening hours involve drunk drivers. The average driver arrested for DUI has committed the offense 50-80 times in the previous year. Arrest them all, the ride home doesn't provide enough deterrence. You can't have a good time drinking iced tea, sodas, or water, when you are out on the town, get someone who can to act as driver. Mr. O'Neill should have planned the mission completely, he didn't.

This. I feel bad for the guy for whatever demons are driving the behavior, but for the sake of all of us he needs to go into the system with all the others who get caught driving drunk.

Averageman

04-09-16, 09:37

This. I feel bad for the guy for whatever demons are driving the behavior, but for the sake of all of us he needs to go into the system with all the others who get caught driving drunk.

Then again it could be the Ambien.
I've never taken it, I wont. I've heard enough horror stories of friends who have and have had issues not unlike this.
It's really not that uncommon for people to get in the car and take a drive, park, then go back to sleep and wake up wondering WTF?

OH58D

04-09-16, 09:56

I hope Mr. O'Neill gets some help. My experience and role with SOCOM personnel was that of an aerial taxi driver earlier in my career when I was flying the MH-6/AH-6; insertion and extraction with CAP. That bunch of folks were very cliquish. They kept to themselves and didn't say much to outsiders. Prior to any mission, they'd speak quietly together or say nothing, exhibiting total focus. Following the AAR, they'd open up more with us pilots, but usually giving us jazz over what we needed to improve on.

I am surprised that some would even call attention to themselves and write a book.

Averageman

04-09-16, 10:19

I am surprised that some would even call attention to themselves and write a book.
That surprises me too. I'm not judging him or anyone else, but it surprises me that he would.

Hmac

04-09-16, 10:27

Then again it could be the Ambien.

I'll be interested to hear his explanation for the breathalyzer refusal.

Averageman

04-09-16, 10:42

I'll be interested to hear his explanation for the breathalyzer refusal.

You wake up disoriented, not knowing where you are or how you got there, do you want a breathalyzer?
I have a very close friend who has taken this stuff, it's just not good for everyone.
Look if I might take this and then be so out of out of the loop that I might take a drive I don't remember, what makes you think I wouldn't drink four Martini's first?

Hmac

04-09-16, 10:47

You wake up disoriented, not knowing where you are or how you got there, do you want a breathalyzer?
I have a very close friend who has taken this stuff, it's just not good for everyone.
Look if I might take this and then be so out of out of the loop that I might take a drive I don't remember, what makes you think I wouldn't drink four Martini's first?

Yeah, you're right. I'm sure it's the Ambien.

Averageman

04-09-16, 10:53

Yeah, you're right. I'm sure it's the Ambien.

No, I'm not saying that.
What I am saying is from what I have observed first hand, people who take Ambien are at risk of this happening.
I have a "sometimes" GF who has had multiple tours ER Tech + Working Some other and more somewhat gruesome tasks. Physically and mentally She aint the same girl.
Sleeping with her can turn in to some MMA some nights.
When She takes Ambien, it can be like "The Walking Dead." She hasn't a Clue.

Primus Pilum

04-09-16, 11:15

Doesn't the article say they smelled no alcohol?

They can't draw his blood if he refused the breath test. He would simply lose his license for a year as opposed to 6 months. No tests no license.

He sounds like he might be considering the express checkout line. Not that I am condoning anything he's done but damn, I can't believe there isn't someone around that can't sit down and have a long talk with him and listen to what he needs to say.

Negative. My not taking the test it gives your lawyer the ability to fight and get out of the charges. Only a fool takes a breathalyzer or sobriety test. Giving the state evidence to hang you with is not smart, the dude did the right thing. I've seen more than a few charges get dropped because the state has no evidence the person was impaired other than a cops word.

Primus Pilum

04-09-16, 11:18

Primus Pilum

04-09-16, 11:19

I'll be interested to hear his explanation for the breathalyzer refusal.

Consenting to tests that are highly subjective and known to be inaccurate that the courts take as gospel is not wise. Only a fool takes a breathalyzer or sobriety test, even when sober.

Hmac

04-09-16, 11:48

Consenting to tests that are highly subjective and known to be inaccurate that the courts take as gospel is not wise. Only a fool takes a breathalyzer or sobriety test, even when sober.

Yeah, I guess I could see refusing a breathalyzer or field sobriety test. If I was unjustly arrested for drunk driving, I'd opt for the blood test. That would be the simplest way for my attorney to get the charges dropped. I wonder why O'neill didn't take that option rather than risk the chance that his attorney could get him off on the Implied Consent violation.

.

OH58D

04-09-16, 12:07

$$$$$$$$$
What was CPO Rob O'Neill's total service time...16 or 17 years? If I was him I would have laid low and stuck it out for 20, but maybe he did see the potential for money? I was no down in the dirt operator, but I still remember these guys as a low key bunch who avoided the bright lights. There are exceptions. Anyone remember David Hackworth? I got out in December 1999 and I met with him and we had dinner in 2002, just a few years before he died. He was actually interviewing me about my time with the 160th. He figured out a way to make money with publications and speaking engagements after his service years. Maybe I should write a book........?????

MountainRaven

04-09-16, 12:33

You actually think the geography of Montana has a predetermining effect of making people prone to alcoholism and driving under the influence?

That's even more retarded than suggesting a person HAS to sell crack and run in a gang because they are from the hood.

I can think of several FL counties that are DUI heavy, but if we magically took those same people back in time and raised them in any of the other 48 states, I'm sure 90% would still be **** ups.

One way or another, yes, of course geography plays a prominent role.

You don't think Nome, Alaska has the highest rates of alcoholism and suicide in the US because suicidal alcoholics think it would be a great place to move to, do you?

I'm not saying that the folks in, say, Havre, who get off work and go to the bar to get sloshed before going home wouldn't be doing the same thing in, say, New York City.

The difference is that you pretty much have to drive to get anywhere in Montana - even if you live in town. In NYC, they have cabs and buses and subways. And you might find a bar within walking distance of your apartment.

Never mind the folks who drink because they're bored and don't have anything to do in Montana because they aren't outdoors types, or they ski but don't hike or hunt but don't fish or just use fishing and skiing as excuses to sit around getting drunk.

There's a reason (among many) Montanans tend to be healthier than the average American, drink more alcohol than the average American, and commit suicide at a higher rate than the average American. And that reason is geography.

HKGuns

04-09-16, 13:07

Don't think that way.

Defer completely to your experience and I see your point.

elephant

04-09-16, 16:41

That surprises me too. I'm not judging him or anyone else, but it surprises me that he would.

Really? Killing Osama Bin Laden is a BIG deal. I don't think anyone could keep that to themselves for too long. I mean, I'm not judging but the SEALS have an ethos that states they do not advertise the nature of there work or seek recognition. Yet you go to Barnes and Noble and there are over 100 first hand account books written by former Navy Seals, (The Trident, Lone Survivor, Fearless, No Easy Day, American Sniper, Men in Green Faces, Suffer in Silence, The Red Circle, The Making of a Navy Seal, No Hero, AXE, Breaking Buds, The Warrior Elite) and the list goes on. This is 2016! Even Seals want the recognition and praise for the things they do. That's just the mentality of this new generation. You don't get that fame and "hero" status for keeping your mouth shut!

ScottsBad

04-09-16, 17:35

Probably left the bar knew he was too drunk to drive, but it was probably cold as a witch's tit, so he started the car to keep warm and passed out. At least I'd like that to be the story. Problem is you can't even have the keys in the ignition if you are drunk.

Too bad, but he is still a hero and this won't change that/

cbx

04-09-16, 18:24

What was CPO Rob O'Neill's total service time...16 or 17 years? If I was him I would have laid low and stuck it out for 20, but maybe he did see the potential for money? I was no down in the dirt operator, but I still remember these guys as a low key bunch who avoided the bright lights. There are exceptions. Anyone remember David Hackworth? I got out in December 1999 and I met with him and we had dinner in 2002, just a few years before he died. He was actually interviewing me about my time with the 160th. He figured out a way to make money with publications and speaking engagements after his service years. Maybe I should write a book........?????
I'd buy your book.

Renegade

04-09-16, 18:35

Irish

04-09-16, 18:49

Or did he kill OBL... :ph34r: https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/1neohk/timeline_osama_bin_laden_died_on_december_14_2001

26 Inf

04-09-16, 18:54

There's a reason (among many) Montanans tend to be healthier than the average American, drink more alcohol than the average American, and commit suicide at a higher rate than the average American. And that reason is geography.

I'll bet you like to read a good book. The Edge of the Crazies by Jamie Harrison. First of a series of four written by her. I loved them. Then the, well Ms. Harrison, quit writing them. Your sentence is kind of a recurring theme.

Linebacker

04-09-16, 19:03

Or did he kill OBL... :ph34r: https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/1neohk/timeline_osama_bin_laden_died_on_december_14_2001

Al Qaeda peeps all over the world confirmed as such afterwards.

Vandal

04-09-16, 19:06

Averageman

04-09-16, 19:28

http://www.everydayhealth.com/drugs/zolpidem
Numerous online and anecdotal reports have suggested that some people abuse Ambien for a narcotic-like "high."

In addition to being addictive or habit-forming, Ambien abuse can result in:

Hallucinations
Nausea or vomiting
Euphoria
Memory loss
Lack of coordination
Fatigue
Take Ambien only as directed by your doctor, and keep this and all other drugs away from children, teenagers, and anyone for whom the drug has not been prescribed.

More side effects.

http://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-9690/ambien-oral/details/list-sideeffects

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/15/ambien-side-effect-sleepwalking-sleep-aid_n_4589743.html

Although the Ambien prescribing information warned, in small print, that medications in the hypnotic class had occasional side effects including sleep walking, “abnormal thinking,” and “strange behavior,” these behaviors were listed as extremely rare, and any anecdotal evidence of “sleep driving,” “sleep eating,” or “sleep shopping”—all behaviors now associated with Ambien blackouts—were characterized as unusual quirks, or attributed to mixing the medication with alcohol. It wasn’t until Patrick Kennedy’s 2006 middle-of-the-night car accident and subsequent explanation to arriving officers that he was running late for a vote that the bizarre side effects of Ambien began to receive national attention. Kennedy claimed that he had taken the sleep aid and had no recollection of the events that night

TAZ

04-09-16, 19:34

Just from the article that looks like a legit DUI to me. Failed SFSTs, refused BAC (instant DL suspension, that's why they took his license) and was in physical control of the running vehicle.

Oh no, he's mortal.

I don't doubt that he is mortal or that he could have screwed up or maybe combined a few things he shouldn't have. Ambien sux ass and from what I hear has some long lasting effects like falling asleep after that crap is supposed to be out of your system.

I guess my question is was he driving or sitting in a car with the engine on? In my book one is driving and the other is not.

MountainRaven

04-09-16, 19:55

I'll bet you like to read a good book. The Edge of the Crazies by Jamie Harrison. First of a series of four written by her. I loved them. Then the, well Ms. Harrison, quit writing them. Your sentence is kind of a recurring theme.

There are basically two types of people in Montana: Those who can live anywhere but freely choose to live on low wages and a high cost of living because they love Montana... and those who are basically trapped in Montana. The former tends to be very active and healthy, the latter tends to be alcoholic and depressed.

Of course, that's not to say that there aren't people who swing between the two or who are active and healthy, but alcoholic and prone to bouts of depression, or who live in Montana because they love it, but are inactive, obese, alcoholic, and prone to depression, or are active, alcoholic, and completely happy-go-lucky... I certainly know enough hunters, fishers, and skiers who love Montana to death and love to hit the bottle as often as they're able. But active & healthy/alcoholic & depressed seems to be the poles around which Montanans rotate.

Anyhue. How would you rate Jamie Harrison's books compared to, say, the works of C.J. Box?

I don't doubt that he is mortal or that he could have screwed up or maybe combined a few things he shouldn't have. Ambien sux ass and from what I hear has some long lasting effects like falling asleep after that crap is supposed to be out of your system.

I guess my question is was he driving or sitting in a car with the engine on? In my book one is driving and the other is not.

IIRC, under Montana law you are considered to be "driving" as soon as your keys are in the ignition, whether the car is moving or not, whether the engine is running or not - I seem to recall this coming up a few years ago after a local town passed an ordinance banning the use of handheld cellular phones while driving. Which does mean that some guys have been busted for DUI for sitting in their car while drunk before they've turned the engine over. I imagine this happens infrequently or on quiet nights, as it would otherwise tend to scare the other potential DUI busts.

26 Inf

04-09-16, 19:58

Defer completely to your experience and I see your point.

That was from the police point of view. If you see someone crawling into a car and you think they are too impaired to drive, dependent on the circumstances (if it is safe to do so) try to help him find a way home, otherwise call 'em in.

I've given guys rides home, early on when I didn't really understand what a problem DUI was I'd do it to stay in-service, available for calls; and on a couple of occasions when I saw someone obviously impaired walking to a vehicle. I'm not going to watch them get in a car and drive, so I intervened and gave one a ride, I sat with the other until someone he called showed up.

Averageman

04-09-16, 20:06

That was from the police point of view. If you see someone crawling into a car and you think they are too impaired to drive, dependent on the circumstances (if it is safe to do so) try to help him find a way home, otherwise call 'em in.

I've given guys rides home, early on when I didn't really understand what a problem DUI was I'd do it to stay in-service, available for calls; and on a couple of occasions when I saw someone obviously impaired walking to a vehicle. I'm not going to watch them get in a car and drive, so I intervened and gave one a ride, I sat with the other until someone he called showed up.

That's pretty cool.
I haven't heard of that since the seventies, but I can respect that decision. I've seen more than a few guys ruin a military career with one bad decision and a DUI.
There but or the Grace of....

26 Inf

04-09-16, 20:09

Anyhue. How would you rate Jamie Harrison's books compared to, say, the works of C.J. Box?

Sorry, I haven't read Box.

SW Montana, you anywhere near Missoula or Stevensville? I actually went through jump school at the aerial fire depot with 19th Group. And I have a buddy who has to go out to Stevensville once or twice a year, and from what he tells me, low wages and a high cost of living because they love Montana... and those who are basically trapped in Montana is pretty accurate.

MountainRaven

04-09-16, 20:17

Sorry, I haven't read Box.

SW Montana, you anywhere near Missoula or Stevensville? I actually went through jump school at the aerial fire depot with 19th Group. And I have a buddy who has to go out to Stevensville once or twice a year, and from what he tells me, low wages and a high cost of living because they love Montana... and those who are basically trapped in Montana is pretty accurate.

Zootown and Stevensville are a few hours north of where I am. I'm almost in Wyoming.

Big A

04-09-16, 20:20

Easy NOT GUILTY if I am on jury.

Not driving, no evidence of alcohol in system.

and WTF is this:

His Texas driver's license was taken by police, and he was issued a 72-hour temporary driving permit.

is this the norm? Never heard of physically taking from a person who has been convicted of NOTHING.
All 50 states will suspend your DL if you refuse to consent to FSE/Breath/Blood/Urine tests.

On the bottom of my FL DL it says:
"Operation of a motor vehicle constitutes consent to any sobriety test required by law."

I'm willing to bet your DL has something similar on it.

And you don't actually have to be driving on a public road for the police to have probable cause for a DUI charge. You just need to be in the vehicle with the keys in your possession.

SteyrAUG

04-09-16, 20:58

One way or another, yes, of course geography plays a prominent role.

You don't think Nome, Alaska has the highest rates of alcoholism and suicide in the US because suicidal alcoholics think it would be a great place to move to, do you?

I'm not saying that the folks in, say, Havre, who get off work and go to the bar to get sloshed before going home wouldn't be doing the same thing in, say, New York City.

The difference is that you pretty much have to drive to get anywhere in Montana - even if you live in town. In NYC, they have cabs and buses and subways. And you might find a bar within walking distance of your apartment.

Never mind the folks who drink because they're bored and don't have anything to do in Montana because they aren't outdoors types, or they ski but don't hike or hunt but don't fish or just use fishing and skiing as excuses to sit around getting drunk.

There's a reason (among many) Montanans tend to be healthier than the average American, drink more alcohol than the average American, and commit suicide at a higher rate than the average American. And that reason is geography.

That is why I was specific about anywhere in the lower 48. Extreme environments can be a factor, Montana isn't really an extreme environment. It's no different from Arkansas, Oklahoma, Oregon, Alabama, Florida or any other state that produces shitheads in disproportionate numbers.

Renegade

04-09-16, 21:11

All 50 states will suspend your DL if you refuse to consent to FSE/Breath/Blood/Urine tests.

On the bottom of my FL DL it says:
"Operation of a motor vehicle constitutes consent to any sobriety test required by law."

I'm willing to bet your DL has something similar on it.

And you don't actually have to be driving on a public road for the police to have probable cause for a DUI charge. You just need to be in the vehicle with the keys in your possession.

My DL does not say that but I overlooked the failed to take the breath test part. Don't see how MT has legal authority to take a DL issued in Texas though. Texas does NOT take out of state licenses. And in this case, Texas does not consider his license suspended. So he can still drive.

Don Robison

04-09-16, 21:19

I guess my question is was he driving or sitting in a car with the engine on? In my book one is driving and the other is not.

He was arrested in a convenience store parking lot; doubtful he willed the car there.

He's flawed, like many people, he did something stupid. Hero or not, take the lumps, learn from it and move on. It's not the end of the world.

elephant

04-09-16, 21:23

Or did he kill OBL... :ph34r: https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/1neohk/timeline_osama_bin_laden_died_on_december_14_2001

I haven't read it but I am assuming Al Qaeda suggest that OBL died in Tora Bora from liver failure sometime in 2004? They released a statement years ago saying that he was a front line fighter until he succumbed to his illness.

That would seem appropriate, In WW2, the US sent 2 Lockheed P-38 Lightning's to shoot down Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto's Mitsubishi G4M over the Solomon Islands. The Japanese search and rescue team that found him stated that he was found sitting upright in his chair in a "posture that resembles someone who was determined and with a stern look", right hand still clenched to his sword and his left hand making a fist. Fact is, he was found still in his seat, face down in a jungle with half of his head missing as well as his right shoulder from the 50cal aircraft guns.

The OBL raid was something else. If you think about it, if it wasn't for the tail rotor belonging to a $150 Million dollar top secret prototype stealth helicopter sitting on the front porch for the whole world to see, nobody would ever know we were there. Had that helicopter not had crashed that night, we might not know the real reason the US sent Seal Team 6 to Islamabad Pakistan because there would be no proof that we were there in the first place. You cant come back from that. Once Pakistan officials were informed that there was a tail rotor to a US stealth helicopter that crashed inside a compound just a mile away from there Military Academy, Obama had to get up and say something. We will never know, because OBL's body was taken to Bagram, then taken aboard the USS Carl Vinson by V-22 Osprey and was quick to be given a traditional Islamic burial:

"According to U.S. officials, bin Laden was buried at sea because no country would accept his remains. Before disposing of the body, the U.S. called the Saudi government, who approved of burying the body in the ocean. Muslim religious rites were performed aboard Carl Vinson in the North Arabian Sea within 24 hours of bin Laden's death. Preparations began at 10:10 am local time and at-sea burial was completed at 11 am. The body was washed, wrapped in a white sheet and placed in a weighted plastic bag. An officer read prepared religious remarks which were translated into Arabic by a native speaker. Afterward, bin Laden's body was placed onto a flat board. The board was tilted upward on one side and the body slid off into the sea"

Besides the fact that not one single person witnessed any of this or has come forward even anonymously to testify to those claims, the 2 other bodies found back at the compound by Pakistani Police were confirmed to have NO relation to OBL. Weeks after the OBL raid a CH-47 Chinook carrying 22 Seals crashed in Afghanistan killing everyone on board including Seals who were involved in that raid.

Firefly

04-09-16, 22:20

Paraphrasing F. Scott Fitzgerald
"Show me a hero, and I shall show you a tragedy"

SteyrAUG

04-09-16, 23:42

I haven't read it but I am assuming Al Qaeda suggest that OBL died in Tora Bora from liver failure sometime in 2004? They released a statement years ago saying that he was a front line fighter until he succumbed to his illness.

That would seem appropriate, In WW2, the US sent 2 Lockheed P-38 Lightning's to shoot down Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto's Mitsubishi G4M over the Solomon Islands. The Japanese search and rescue team that found him stated that he was found sitting upright in his chair in a "posture that resembles someone who was determined and with a stern look", right hand still clenched to his sword and his left hand making a fist. Fact is, he was found still in his seat, face down in a jungle with half of his head missing as well as his right shoulder from the 50cal aircraft guns.

The OBL raid was something else. If you think about it, if it wasn't for the tail rotor belonging to a $150 Million dollar top secret prototype stealth helicopter sitting on the front porch for the whole world to see, nobody would ever know we were there. Had that helicopter not had crashed that night, we might not know the real reason the US sent Seal Team 6 to Islamabad Pakistan because there would be no proof that we were there in the first place. You cant come back from that. Once Pakistan officials were informed that there was a tail rotor to a US stealth helicopter that crashed inside a compound just a mile away from there Military Academy, Obama had to get up and say something. We will never know, because OBL's body was taken to Bagram, then taken aboard the USS Carl Vinson by V-22 Osprey and was quick to be given a traditional Islamic burial:

"According to U.S. officials, bin Laden was buried at sea because no country would accept his remains. Before disposing of the body, the U.S. called the Saudi government, who approved of burying the body in the ocean. Muslim religious rites were performed aboard Carl Vinson in the North Arabian Sea within 24 hours of bin Laden's death. Preparations began at 10:10 am local time and at-sea burial was completed at 11 am. The body was washed, wrapped in a white sheet and placed in a weighted plastic bag. An officer read prepared religious remarks which were translated into Arabic by a native speaker. Afterward, bin Laden's body was placed onto a flat board. The board was tilted upward on one side and the body slid off into the sea"

Besides the fact that not one single person witnessed any of this or has come forward even anonymously to testify to those claims, the 2 other bodies found back at the compound by Pakistani Police were confirmed to have NO relation to OBL. Weeks after the OBL raid a CH-47 Chinook carrying 22 Seals crashed in Afghanistan killing everyone on board including Seals who were involved in that raid.

Thought it took a RPG hit and most people assume those on board were sold out by someone they worked with. Wouldn't be hard to get set up in a place like that, especially when we depend so heavily on local cooperation and support.

TacticalSledgehammer

04-10-16, 03:36

I'm not sure why he was arrested. He was parked not driving.

Hmac

04-10-16, 06:54

Pilot1

04-10-16, 07:18

You only have to have the means to drive the car. In his case, he was behind the wheel, passed out, engine running. People called the cops, he failed a field sobriety test, was taken "downtown", refused breathalyzer.

You can be sleeping in a parked car, engine off, and if you are past the legal blood alcohol level still get a DUI. You can also get a DUI riding a bike drunk.

Chameleox

04-10-16, 07:24

I'm not sure why he was arrested. He was parked not driving.

In many states, "Operating a vehicle" does not require the vehicle to actually be moving. Being in the driver's seat of a running vehicle may be sufficient. In some places, having the keys in the ignition, but the engine off, depending on circumstances, may be sufficient. DUI/OWI varies a lot between states.

Montana's law makes reference to being "in actual physical control" of a vehicle, distinguished from driving. Depending on how courts have ruled there in other cases, as well as what the cops can offer as evidence, that may be enough.

The statute also makes reference to driving or being in actual physical control on "ways of the state open to the public". Montana's Supreme Court has at least a couple cases on file that uphold convictions on private property, including parking lots, as was the case with Mr. O'Neill.

Montana's law:
http://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/61/8/61-8-401.htm

As always, I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, and please be familiar with the laws pertinent to your own state or jurisdiction.

No excuse for drunk driving, but I truly wish Mr. O'Neill the best. What he did that night or on another night in 2011 notwithstanding, he's done a great service to his country, and may still be fighting his own demons.

Irish

04-10-16, 08:05

You've got a gun, you're carrying it concealed, you should be charged with murder. :p

Bullshit laws to tax and rape the common man.

Irish

04-10-16, 08:07

I haven't read it but I am assuming Al Qaeda suggest that OBL died in Tora Bora from liver failure sometime in 2004? They released a statement years ago saying that he was a front line fighter until he succumbed to his illness.

That would seem appropriate, In WW2, the US sent 2 Lockheed P-38 Lightning's to shoot down Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto's Mitsubishi G4M over the Solomon Islands. The Japanese search and rescue team that found him stated that he was found sitting upright in his chair in a "posture that resembles someone who was determined and with a stern look", right hand still clenched to his sword and his left hand making a fist. Fact is, he was found still in his seat, face down in a jungle with half of his head missing as well as his right shoulder from the 50cal aircraft guns.

The OBL raid was something else. If you think about it, if it wasn't for the tail rotor belonging to a $150 Million dollar top secret prototype stealth helicopter sitting on the front porch for the whole world to see, nobody would ever know we were there. Had that helicopter not had crashed that night, we might not know the real reason the US sent Seal Team 6 to Islamabad Pakistan because there would be no proof that we were there in the first place. You cant come back from that. Once Pakistan officials were informed that there was a tail rotor to a US stealth helicopter that crashed inside a compound just a mile away from there Military Academy, Obama had to get up and say something. We will never know, because OBL's body was taken to Bagram, then taken aboard the USS Carl Vinson by V-22 Osprey and was quick to be given a traditional Islamic burial:

"According to U.S. officials, bin Laden was buried at sea because no country would accept his remains. Before disposing of the body, the U.S. called the Saudi government, who approved of burying the body in the ocean. Muslim religious rites were performed aboard Carl Vinson in the North Arabian Sea within 24 hours of bin Laden's death. Preparations began at 10:10 am local time and at-sea burial was completed at 11 am. The body was washed, wrapped in a white sheet and placed in a weighted plastic bag. An officer read prepared religious remarks which were translated into Arabic by a native speaker. Afterward, bin Laden's body was placed onto a flat board. The board was tilted upward on one side and the body slid off into the sea"

Besides the fact that not one single person witnessed any of this or has come forward even anonymously to testify to those claims, the 2 other bodies found back at the compound by Pakistani Police were confirmed to have NO relation to OBL. Weeks after the OBL raid a CH-47 Chinook carrying 22 Seals crashed in Afghanistan killing everyone on board including Seals who were involved in that raid.

The whole bury the body at sea thing reeks to me... I'm not saying the SEALs didn't smoke dude but who gives a flying **** about some bullshit Muslim religious rites of burial for the most wanted shithead on the planet? Gimme a break.

MAUSER202

04-10-16, 08:18

Don't think that way.

Over 60% of the fatality accidents which occur during the evening hours involve drunk drivers. The average driver arrested for DUI has committed the offense 50-80 times in the previous year. Arrest them all, the ride home doesn't provide enough deterrence. You can't have a good time drinking iced tea, sodas, or water, when you are out on the town, get someone who can to act as driver. Mr. O'Neill should have planned the mission completely, he didn't.

+ 1! I had a friend loose her 11 year old son to a drunk driver, who decided to pass a stopped school bus, another friend loose his wife, spend 5 months in the hospital and need 20 surgeries over the next 2 years and a brother forced into early retirement due to injures from someone driving high on meth.

I have no sympathies for people who DUI. Get help, get a ride don't drive.

Averageman

04-10-16, 08:26

The whole bury the body at sea thing reeks to me... I'm not saying the SEALs didn't smoke dude but who gives a flying **** about some bullshit Muslim religious rites of burial for the most wanted shithead on the planet? Gimme a break.

It sounds pretty sketchy to me.
It was a political move from the start, I don't think this guy wanted UBL as much as he wanted UBL and no blood on his hands doing it and to do it in a way that was least offensive to the Saudi's. (Sewing a couple of pig ears to the side of his head and making the cover of Time Magazine with that photo wasn't going to happen.) To be honest, I wouldn't doubt if the whole religious rites and burial at sea thing came straight from the White House.
This lead me to believe the POTUS is either full of crap about the whole thing or he was walking a tightrope on this one. On one hand he wanted the claim to fame, on the other he didn't want to piss off the ME.

26 Inf

04-10-16, 09:29

You can be sleeping in a parked car, engine off, and if you are past the legal blood alcohol level still get a DUI. You can also get a DUI riding a bike drunk.

answered much better by an earlier post - sorry!

Renegade

04-10-16, 12:09

I'm not sure why he was arrested. He was parked not driving.

That plus no evidence of alcohol in his system is why I would find him NOT GUILTY.

MountainRaven

04-10-16, 12:21

You can be sleeping in a parked car, engine off, and if you are past the legal blood alcohol level still get a DUI. You can also get a DUI riding a bike drunk.

Couple years ago, a guy in the area got a DUI for operating a motorized wheelchair down the sidewalk.

Sensei

04-10-16, 12:41

That plus no evidence of alcohol in his system is why I would find him NOT GUILTY.

First, you don't have to be driving. Sitting in a running car is more than enough in most states. Second, he initially admitted to consuming alcohol and Ambien. He later recanted on the alcohol. Third, he appeared intoxicated according to the arresting officers. Fourth, he failed a field sobriety test. Finally, he refused to submit to a breathelizer and blood sample. So, naturally there will be no evidence of intoxicants in his system if he refuses the test. However, points 1-4 combined with a refusal means that he will probably be getting a lot of exercise over the next year unless he gets a judge who ignores the law.

Renegade

04-10-16, 13:00

First, you don't have to be driving. Sitting in a running car is more than enough in most states. Second, he initially admitted to consuming alcohol and Ambien. He later recanted on the alcohol. Third, he appeared intoxicated according to the arresting officers. Fourth, he failed a field sobriety test. Finally, he refused to submit to a breathelizer and blood sample. So, naturally there will be no evidence of intoxicants in his system if he refuses the test. However, points 1-4 combined with a refusal means that he will probably be getting a lot of exercise over the next year unless he gets a judge who ignores the law.

Sixth, I don't care about any of that. Until they can show he was actually driving the car and had an illegal amount of alcohol in his system, all they have is a thought crime. So him or anyone else, gets NOT GUILTY.

Not much different that a rifle AR and a Pistol AR. Sure you could swap around and have an illegal SBR, but unless they can show you actually did it, that too is a thought crime and gets NOT GUILTY.

elephant

04-10-16, 15:11

The whole bury the body at sea thing reeks to me... I'm not saying the SEALs didn't smoke dude but who gives a flying **** about some bullshit Muslim religious rites of burial for the most wanted shithead on the planet? Gimme a break.

If nobody wanted his body or claim him, then why did we go through all that to give him a prober burial? Must of been Obamas doing.

Firefly

04-10-16, 15:24

Sixth, I don't care about any of that. Until they can show he was actually driving the car and had an illegal amount of alcohol in his system, all they have is a thought crime. So him or anyone else, gets NOT GUILTY.

Not much different that a rifle AR and a Pistol AR. Sure you could swap around and have an illegal SBR, but unless they can show you actually did it, that too is a thought crime and gets NOT GUILTY.

Well, in theory you are correct. Statutory-wise, it's a crime. Hence, implied consent.
They can charge you with DUI refusal or get a court order for your blood.

Like "No Refusal Roadchecks".

DUI is an avoidable offense. Stay home or phone a friend/cab.

The point is that regardless of outcome, it is revenue.

As for DUI laws being what they are, thank MADD to where the spirit of the law has been pared down so.

If it were middle of nowhere at late o'clock with nobody out. And knowing guy was military much less a SEAL much less a guy who shot Bin Laden....a ride home and a "hey bud, this can mess your shit up with a DUI charge" sermon.

Severe drunks are going to to drink-drive regardless of licensing. Same way Joe Dreadlock carries concealed while you and I have to pay for a permit.

Laws only affect the law abiding

Sensei

04-10-16, 16:21

Sixth, I don't care about any of that. Until they can show he was actually driving the car and had an illegal amount of alcohol in his system, all they have is a thought crime. So him or anyone else, gets NOT GUILTY.

Not much different that a rifle AR and a Pistol AR. Sure you could swap around and have an illegal SBR, but unless they can show you actually did it, that too is a thought crime and gets NOT GUILTY.

I think that you test that theory. Park your car in the parking lot of you local police station at 11 pm on a Friday night...nah screw that shit...park it in front your local Texas DPS barracks. Then, drink a bottle of Mad Dog 20/20. Hell, have two of'em if you can. Be sure to leave the empty bottles on the hood of your car. Then, take a nap in the drivers seat with the engine running until a trooper taps on the window. Be sure to quote your last post when he or she asks you WTF you're doing. Remember, you want to video record this so that we can all marvel at your legal prowess.

If those troopers violate your rights, have your mom PM me - I'll cover your bail. ;)

T2C

04-10-16, 16:40

Well, in theory you are correct. Statutory-wise, it's a crime. Hence, implied consent.
They can charge you with DUI refusal or get a court order for your blood.

Like "No Refusal Roadchecks".

DUI is an avoidable offense. Stay home or phone a friend/cab.

The point is that regardless of outcome, it is revenue.

As for DUI laws being what they are, thank MADD to where the spirit of the law has been pared down so.

If it were middle of nowhere at late o'clock with nobody out. And knowing guy was military much less a SEAL much less a guy who shot Bin Laden....a ride home and a "hey bud, this can mess your shit up with a DUI charge" sermon.

Severe drunks are going to to drink-drive regardless of licensing. Same way Joe Dreadlock carries concealed while you and I have to pay for a permit.

Laws only affect the law abiding

There could be more to the story that we are not hearing. How do we know he was not given a free pass in the past?

Firefly

04-10-16, 16:56

There could be more to the story that we are not hearing. How do we know he was not given a free pass in the past?

Fair point.
Very fair point.

I'm inclined to cut people who have had it rough or done tough stuff a LOT of slack.
That said, if he has a problem I would rather he get real help.

People always say "get help" or "you need help". But nobody actually wants to help or sponsor someone.

I imagine that it is hard going from a million miles an hour to a dead stop.

I would hate for this person to get messed over. But I would hate for this person to get crushed by addiction.

Lots of inferring here, but he likely wasn't drinking because life is awesome.

Having some choir practice is one thing but pill popping and imbibing to excess is a symptom.

Hmac

04-10-16, 17:03

At the bottom of it all, we're talking about an impaired driver on the streets. LEO forbearance and legal shenanigans aside, I'm opposed to that.

elephant

04-10-16, 17:45

At the bottom of it all, we're talking about an impaired driver on the streets. LEO forbearance and legal shenanigans aside, I'm opposed to that.

Absolutely!

SteyrAUG

04-10-16, 18:16

At the bottom of it all, we're talking about an impaired driver on the streets. LEO forbearance and legal shenanigans aside, I'm opposed to that.

Agreed. If you are gonna sleep in your car, don't turn the engine on and don't go anyplace.

Renegade

04-10-16, 18:22

I think that you test that theory. Park your car in the parking lot [blah, blah, blah]

You are having a reading failure.

I clearly wrote "Easy NOT GUILTY if I am on jury."

austinN4

04-10-16, 18:25

Agreed. If you are gonna sleep in your car, don't turn the engine on and don't go anyplace.

That doesn't work everywhere. Simply being in the car with the keys in your pocket equals control of a MV is some states.
Know you local laws and don't assume they are the same everywhere.

Renegade

04-10-16, 18:28

There could be more to the story that we are not hearing.

Absolutely.

He was described as lethargic, and that is a symptom of many things not related to alcohol consumption. Since he did not blow and they did not draw blood (AFAWK), whether he was legally intoxicated will never be known. But it is always fun to see folks rush to judgement that he was driving drunk!

Irish

04-10-16, 18:32

Anyone with a dick, a car, and a license over 21, who shouldn't have had at least 1 DUI in their time, raise their hand.

Sensei

04-10-16, 18:32

You are having a reading failure.

I clearly wrote "Easy NOT GUILTY if I am on jury."

I doubt there will be a jury trial for this DUI case - it's possible but unlikely. If there was, the judge will not let him bring his prior military service into the proceedings and less than 5% of the population has your mastery of the law. So, something tells me that Mr. O'Neill has a lot of walking and biking in his future.

Hmac

04-10-16, 18:33

Absolutely.

He was described as lethargic, and that is a symptom of many things not related to alcohol consumption....

Virtually all of which preclude the ability to drive a car safely.

Irish

04-10-16, 18:35

That doesn't work everywhere. Simply being in the car with the keys in your pocket equals control of a MV is some states.

Which is pretty f'ing silly. So, if the penalty is the same for driving, or trying to sleep it off in your car, might as well just give it a go then right?

Rereading this sounds like I'm attacking you, I'm not. I just think it's ****ing stupid and can't think of another way to phrase it.

Renegade

04-10-16, 18:36

Virtually all of which preclude the ability to drive a car safely.

Agreed. Good thing he was not driving.

Renegade

04-10-16, 18:39

I doubt there will be a jury trial for a DUI case.

Agreed. I imagine the DUI charge will be dropped for lack of evidence, and he will cop to the no blow charge.

austinN4

04-10-16, 18:39

I just think it's ****ing stupid and can't think of another way to phrase it.

Totally agree, but it is out there nonetheless.

Renegade

04-10-16, 18:40

Which is pretty f'ing silly. So, if the penalty is the same for driving, or trying to sleep it off in your car, might as well just give it a go then right?

Rereading this sounds like I'm attacking you, I'm not. I just think it's ****ing stupid and can't think of another way to phrase it.

Exactly. Hence my view.

MountainRaven

04-10-16, 18:42

Anyone with a dick, a car, and a license over 21, who shouldn't have had at least 1 DUI in their time, raise their hand.

Never had a DUI. Only been pulled over once, in fact.

But I don't drink often and I never go out to drink - drinks are cheaper at my house, anyway.

Hmac

04-10-16, 18:42

Agreed. Good thing he was not driving.

Sadly, he was.

Irish

04-10-16, 18:43

Exactly. Hence my view.

I've been in agreement with you since the beginning. Evidence and facts my man.

Irish

04-10-16, 18:47

Never had a DUI. Only been pulled over once, in fact.

But I don't drink often and I never go out to drink - drinks are cheaper at my house, anyway.

I'm guessing the vast majority of the population who imbibes, by legal definition, has driven under the influence at one time or another, and could have easily got their very own trip to the clink.

That may not be you. Personally, especially when I was in the military, I could've had a few dozen DUI's. Today, not happening.

Renegade

04-10-16, 19:00

Sadly, he was.

No he was sleeping:

O'Neill, 39, was found sleeping behind the wheel of a blue 2005 Nissan

What he was doing and what he was charged with are two different things

Hmac

04-10-16, 19:02

Evidence and facts my man.

61-8-401. Driving under influence of alcohol or drugs -- definitions. (1) It is unlawful and punishable, as provided in 61-8-442, 61-8-714, and 61-8-731 through 61-8-734, for a person who is under the influence of:
(a) alcohol to drive or be in actual physical control of a vehicle upon the ways of this state open to the public;
(b) a dangerous drug to drive or be in actual physical control of a vehicle within this state;
(c) any other drug to drive or be in actual physical control of a vehicle within this state; or
(d) alcohol and any dangerous or other drug to drive or be in actual physical control of a vehicle within this state.

[O]ne could have “actual physical control” while merely parking or standing still so long as one was keeping the car in restraint or in position to regulate its movements. Preventing a car from moving is as much control and dominion as actually putting the car in motion on the highway. Could one exercise any more regulation over a thing, while bodily present, than prevention of movement or curbing movement. As long as one were physically or bodily able to assert dominion, in the sense of movement, then he has as much control over an object as he would if he were actually driving the vehicle.

-State v. Ruona, 133 Mont. at 248–49, 321 P.2d at 618

The Montana Supreme Court said that 6 crucial factors should be considered to determine whether someone accused of DUI had actual physical control:

Where in the vehicle the defendant was located (behind the wheel - check)
Whether the ignition key was in the vehicle, and where the key was located (in the ignition - check)
Whether the engine was running or not (running - check)
Where the vehicle was parked and how it got there (he drove it there - check)
Whether the vehicle was disabled (broken down, mechanically inoperable, stuck, or otherwise immovable) (not disabled - check)
How easily the defendant could have cured the vehicle’s disability (put it in "Drive"" - check)

Sensei

04-10-16, 19:05

I've been in agreement with you since the beginning. Evidence and facts my man.

What you are missing is that fact that MOST states dramatically lessen the state's burden of proof as soon as the suspect refuses the breathelizer. Under these implied consent laws the officer's belief that the driver was impaired and evidence to that fact (i.e. failed field sobriety test that is probably caught on dash cam, witness statements, O'Neill's statement that he drank beer and took Ambien, etc.) will be enough proof that O'Neill was impaired. The law will not require the state to deterime to what degree or with what substance because he refused testing.

Also, states have different definitions of what constitutes driving. Almost all states consider sitting in the driver's seat of a running vehicle to be driving, regardless of whether the car is in motion. It's like others said in this thread, he did not will or use mass-energy transport to get his can in that parking lot.

Finally, the reason why you got away with driving while impaired so many times is that the average person who gets caught has driven drunk 50-80 times before their first documented offense. It's the law of averages...

Irish

04-10-16, 19:08

The Montana Supreme Court said that 6 crucial factors should be considered to determine whether someone accused of DUI had actual physical control:

Where in the vehicle the defendant was located (behind the wheel - check)
Whether the ignition key was in the vehicle, and where the key was located (in the ignition - check)
Whether the engine was running or not (running - check)
Where the vehicle was parked and how it got there (he drove it there - check)
Whether the vehicle was disabled (broken down, mechanically inoperable, stuck, or otherwise immovable) (not disabled - check)
How easily the defendant could have cured the vehicle’s disability (put it in "Drive"" - check)

How do you know he drove it there? He couldn't put it in drive, he was sleeping.

I understand what some judge thinks and I disagree. Where is the crime? Who was injured? What property was damaged?

Turnkey11

04-10-16, 19:09

The thing that shocks me the most is that a Navy SEAL is driving a 2005 Nissan Sentra.

A retired SEAL at 20 years pulls the same pension as a retired servicemember of equal paygrade from any other branch or job specialty. You retire at the 20 year mark, McDonalds kids make more than you do.

austinN4

04-10-16, 19:10

Irish

04-10-16, 19:13

What you are missing is that fact that MOST states dramatically lessen the state's burden of proof as soon as the suspect refuses the breathelizer. Under these implied consent laws the officer's belief that the driver was impaired and evidence to that fact (i.e. failed field sobriety test that is probably caught on dash cam, witness statements, O'Neill's statement that he drank beer and took Ambien, etc.) will be enough proof that O'Neill was impaired. The law will not require the state to deterime to what degree or with what substance because he refused testing.

Also, states have different definitions of what constitutes driving. Almost all states consider sitting in the driver's seat of a running vehicle to be driving, regardless of whether the car is in motion. It's like others said in this thread, he did not will or use mass-energy transport to get his can in that parking lot.

Finally, the reason why you got away with driving while impaired so many times is that the average person who gets caught has driven drunk 50-80 times before their first documented offense. It's the law of averages...

I hear ya and I'm not trying to be obtuse. Let's say he was impaired. He also had the better judgement to pull over, and take a siesta, rather than driving in an unsafe manner. Should that be applauded? Probably not. Were there better options? I don't know, but I would assume so. I'm just not quick to judge the dude when just about every adult I know could probably have been snapped up for the same shit.

Sensei

04-10-16, 19:13

How do you know he drove it there? He couldn't put it in drive, he was sleeping.

I understand what some judge thinks and I disagree. Where is the crime? Who was injured? What property was damaged?

The state was injured.

After reading that, I know that your libertarian brain is about to explode. Before that happens, call me. I'll hook you up...;)

Irish

04-10-16, 19:14

The state was injured.

After reading that, I know that you libertarian brain is about to explode. Before that happens, call me. I'll hook you up...;)

LOL! All the best bro! :)

elephant

04-10-16, 19:15

That is sad.

My Grandad who served as an officer in the USAAF from 1938 to 1947 where he then served in the US Army from 1947 to 1976 retired as a Colonel. He received $288/month for the rest of his life. Apparently military pensions don't keep up with inflation. SAD!!! He served in Africa in WW2 flying B-24's, Served as 49th Armored Division command in Korean War and was Commander of the 588th Ferry Logistics Squadron in the Vietnam War.

Hmac

04-10-16, 19:18

I understand what some judge thinks and I disagree.

You absolutely may disagree here on the internet. In real life, our opinions are irrelevant to the end result of this case.

Turnkey11

04-10-16, 19:19

That is sad.

Thats why TSP is important, wish I had listened during my first 10 years. Retirement alone wont carry you.

Dist. Expert 26

04-10-16, 19:30

Anyone with a dick, a car, and a license over 21, who shouldn't have had at least 1 DUI in their time, raise their hand.

I should have had more than a few when I was in high school and the Corps. The fact that I never got busted or caused a wreck is nothing short of a miracle.

TAZ

04-10-16, 19:48

You absolutely may disagree here on the internet. In real life, our opinions are irrelevant to the end result of this case.

Not if I'm on a jury they aren't.

I agree that folks who drink should not get in a car and drive. He wasn't driving. Nobody saw him driving. No evidence can be produced that puts him behind the wheel of a moving vehicle on public property. Parking lot = private property. Unless they have video of him exercising the privilege of driving on a public road, all the state has is the thought, feeling or whatever intuition.

I understand that MADD and the like have made the Constitution mean less because the children get hurt by DUI's, but I don't have to like it or agree with it.

By the same thought process those with guns are murderers, penises are rapists and vaginas are whores cause the state thinks your are.

Sensei

04-10-16, 20:00

Not if I'm on a jury they aren't.

I agree that folks who drink should not get in a car and drive. He wasn't driving. Nobody saw him driving. No evidence can be produced that puts him behind the wheel of a moving vehicle on public property. Parking lot = private property. Unless they have video of him exercising the privilege of driving on a public road, all the state has is the thought, feeling or whatever intuition.

I understand that MADD and the like have made the Constitution mean less because the children get hurt by DUI's, but I don't have to like it or agree with it.

By the same thought process those with guns are murderers, penises are rapists and vaginas are whores cause the state thinks your are.

Actually, you cannot drive intoxicated on private property in most states.

I hear you that you do not like the laws in Montana. Perhaps its time for you to run for office? I'm actually not trying to be a patronizing dick with this suggestion (unlike about 90% of my posts). I happen to disagree with you on this one, but most communities could use some more libertarian minded people on the local level. Using jury nullification MAY prevent 1 injustice; changing the law prevents countless injustices.

The Dumb Gun Collector

04-10-16, 20:07

I understand that MADD and the like have made the Constitution mean less because the children get hurt by DUI's, but I don't have to like it or agree with it.

Taz is right about this. The SC and the states are FINALLY starting to walk this back (baby steps), but MADD (which is basically a Wounded Warrior-style shake-down operation at this point) has done almost as much to destroy the Constitution as the drug war.

But Sensei is right that you can usually get a DUI on private property. In some places MADD has made the law so obnoxious people are getting wheel-chair and bicycle DUIs. I haven't seen this case, but legally I suspect you could get a DUI in a wheelchair in your own house in most states.

Primus Pilum

04-10-16, 21:15

A retired SEAL at 20 years pulls the same pension as a retired servicemember of equal paygrade from any other branch or job specialty. You retire at the 20 year mark, McDonalds kids make more than you do.

While that is true they make the same as other service members, They make WAY more than min wage.

E7 with 20 years is pulling in about $2K a month + Medical + Bennies not to mention someone from combat arms/SOCOM is going to have some disability rating on top of that. If they weren't a moron and put money away via TSP/IRA then you can retire with enough to live on if you didn't drive a BMW and live like a rock star. Retire by age 40 and able to start a second career, or at least get Paid to go to college via post 9/11 GI bill. E5 with dependents BAH + Retirement to go to school is not a bad gig at age 40. So figure $1500 + $2K retirement and live in a state with no income tax and you can live comfortably while you get that BS or MS.

Averageman

04-10-16, 21:57

While that is true they make the same as other service members, They make WAY more than min wage.

E7 with 20 years is pulling in about $2K a month + Medical + Bennies not to mention someone from combat arms/SOCOM is going to have some disability rating on top of that. If they weren't a moron and put money away via TSP/IRA then you can retire with enough to live on if you didn't drive a BMW and live like a rock star. Retire by age 40 and able to start a second career, or at least get Paid to go to college via post 9/11 GI bill. E5 with dependents BAH + Retirement to go to school is not a bad gig at age 40. So figure $1500 + $2K retirement and live in a state with no income tax and you can live comfortably while you get that BS or MS.

That may work if you retired yesterday. Those numbers didn't work out for me, but I see your point.
I think, hell; I know a lot of guys don't take advantage of the opportunities available to them when bitching about it seems a little easier than putting forth the effort.
I worked AC/RC with a group of guys and couldn't get one of them in my section to go to school when we had the chance. I managed to finish my BS before retirement and although it isn't much, it made a big difference for me when I applied for the job I'm at now.

26 Inf

04-10-16, 23:12

Taz is right about this. The SC and the states are FINALLY starting to walk this back (baby steps), but MADD (which is basically a Wounded Warrior-style shake-down operation at this point) has done almost as much to destroy the Constitution as the drug war.

No wanting to be a dick, but there is no constitutional right to drive. You agree that you will take a breath/blood test if arrested for DUI when you sign on to drive. You have the right to get your own test, and the police have to reasonably facilitate that request.

Here is the deal, make the officer work - don't answer any questions, provide your driver's license and other documents as required by law. If the officer asks you any questions beyond - is this your current address? - don't answer. If the officer asks you to take field sobriety tests don't take them. Those are your rights, exercise them.

If you do that then you are forcing the officer to make their arrest decision off of vehicle in motion, observation of the stop and your physical appearance. If the officer arrests you, you may as well go all in and refuse any breath or blood testing.

In court the burden is on the state to prove you were impaired. Good luck. Either way, you'll probably be a little more circumspect the next time you decide to drive after drinking.

Cokie

04-10-16, 23:13

That plus no evidence of alcohol in his system is why I would find him NOT GUILTY.

DUI should be the easiest violation to prove. All DUI's should get blood drawn. Any paramedic can do it easy, and it removes reasonable doubt.
You are no longer innocent until proven guilty.

I'm sad doctors are still prescribing ambien. There were so many falls when it was popular (elderly love it but have so many issues with it). Now that fewer people are on it, night shift nurse's and CNA's jobs are so much easier. While its probably the single best sleep initiating medication available, the risks outweigh the benefits many times. If he was on ambien he was still a danger to those around him. I heard a commercial by the Washington State DOT about DUI (Glad I don't actually live in WA) and while I dislike the state, it is dangerous to be on certain meds driving, some more dangerous than alcohol. Glad they aren't just going for booze.

Primus Pilum

04-10-16, 23:54

No wanting to be a dick, but there is no constitutional right to drive. You agree that you will take a breath/blood test if arrested for DUI when you sign on to drive. You have the right to get your own test, and the police have to reasonably facilitate that request.

Here is the deal, make the officer work - don't answer any questions, provide your driver's license and other documents as required by law. If the officer asks you any questions beyond - is this your current address? - don't answer. If the officer asks you to take field sobriety tests don't take them. Those are your rights, exercise them.

If you do that then you are forcing the officer to make their arrest decision off of vehicle in motion, observation of the stop and your physical appearance. If the officer arrests you, you may as well go all in and refuse any breath or blood testing.

In court the burden is on the state to prove you were impaired. Good luck. Either way, you'll probably be a little more circumspect the next time you decide to drive after drinking.

Disagree on right to drive. This comes down to freedom of movement. It would be like saying you don't have the right to ride a horse 200 years ago. Something that could and would get you killed without it. Cars are the modern day horse and are the way people get around. Without a Car around here, most people are looking at a 20-40 mile walk to work, each way. I pay my taxes the same as everyone else who pays theirs. Unless I am harming someone else, then I should have freedom of movement using the modern standard of transportation. Arresting for DUI is like arresting a CCW holder for murder because there is the capacity.

Consenting to a test is 100% bullshit. There is no alternative unless you want to be a bum for the rest if your life, drug addict or live on welfare. The state FORCES people into this unjust agreement in order to do something that is a necessity for almost all. If they REALLY cared about DUI/DWI, they would put an interlock on every car and make DUI mandatory 10 years in prison similar to other bullshit laws like the NFA. But unfortunately that wouldn't create the cash cow big business of encouraging people to get a 2nd, 3rd, 4th dui before they kill someone. Better for the courts, police and lawyers to bleed someone for $10K's than to actually do some good in the world. So while I may have a license, I don't consent to shit, and I have never had a DUI or pulled over for one. My civil rights are not forfeited because I posses something the state says I must posses to be a productive member of society. Act accordingly.

As far as keeping your trap shut, refusing all tests and being respectfull, you are 100% correct. Know more than a few people that have had charges dropped because the state has no proof the person was drinking or impaired. Even the CCTV can be brought into play and if you look normal, good chance of getting out of it. Take a FSBT and blow, you are signing away any chance of getting out of the charges. Hell most people can't pass a FSBT sober.

SteyrAUG

04-11-16, 02:38

Anyone with a dick, a car, and a license over 21, who shouldn't have had at least 1 DUI in their time, raise their hand.

Raising my hand.

The closest I've come to impaired is trying to wake the rest of the way up on the drive to work.

If I'm going to be driving, I don't drink anything, not a single beer...nothing. I simply don't drive impaired for the same reason I try not to do stupid shit with guns. The fact that I rarely drink makes it pretty easy.

To drive the point further home, one night in a really nice steakhouse I had a couple B&Bs to go with a particularly good ribeye. I didn't feel impaired, but I was well past "warm" so I actually walked home 8 blocks rather than drive. When my gf got off work we went and got my car.

Of course the fact that I have personally known several people killed by drunk drivers probably has a lot to do with it.

TAZ

04-11-16, 10:27

I don't think anyone is being a dick when we disagree on things. Discussing ideas is the most viable way to figure out better ways to skin a cat.

The premise behind DUI laws is to protect people from harm. Harm comes from someone acting in a manner that endangers others or in a lot of sad cases injure others. EVERYONE agrees that people who drive drunk shouldn't be on the roads. EVERYONE agrees that we have a Constitution that protects our rights. There is a way to accomplish the task of keeping drunk people off the roads where they are a danger to others while not wiping your ass with the Constitution.

While many argue hat driving is a privilege, I tend to disagree. We have the right to travel and move about freely. Try that without a car and see how fast you are ticketed or even arrested for walking, biking or riding your horse on a freeway. Then see how long it takes for your to get ticketed or arrests for trespass when you stay off the freeway and travel on private property. In today's world your right to free movement is dependent on a car or other motorized vehicle. Therefore IMO you have a right to drive. Given the above I'm still ok with the idea of licensing and such to insure that folks aren't a danger (it's a compromise I'm willing to work within). Just like with other crimes there needs to be evidence proving that you are guilty; not the other way. Blood tests and breathalyzer tests are done to prove innocence. Still not certain how we can be forced to provide evidence against ourselves. If one has the right to not talk (5th amendment) because they might provide evidence (something that only resides in their brain) against themselves, why does that not apply to their breath or body fluids?? To me that evidence is an officer witnessing the accused bale having in a manner that is dangerous to others. Who cares what the root cause for the behavior is? They are a danger to those around them, the fact that the danger is cause by drugs, alcohol, texting, stuffing face with burger, getting/giving head... is irrelevant. The only reason it's relevant in today's laws is cause it's convenient and can be easily stigmatized enough to allow folks to concede some of their rights to save the children.

I also think that if our legal system was truly worried about the children they wouldn't allow these repeat offender out. No vehicular manslaughter loonacy , no slap on the wrist fine.

My thoughts are to go back to wreckless driving or other legaleze description for it. Punish the action not the possible action. Pre crime is unconstitutional IMO and when you arrest someone not causing harm because they might that's pre crime. Kill someone while driving recklessly and your are guilty of murder. You CHOSE to get behind the wheel and drive on a public road and caused harm. Injure someone and you're guilty of aggravated assault. Get convicted of reckless driving and you loose your car permanently and your license for a determined time frame. During that time if you're behind he wheel again you go to jail. No tax based benefits while your license is suspended or for any losses you I curt while suspended. Loose your job cause you can't get there: tough shit no unemployment or welfare for you. Loose your home: tough shit no Sec 8 for you.

brickboy240

04-11-16, 10:30

What were you all expecting him to drive?

A jacked up F250 Super Duty, all black, with a punisher skull on the back window?

LOL

Maybe this was his incognito junker....you don't know.

Primus Pilum

04-11-16, 10:58

I would be fine if DUI/DWI laws were removed completely.

However, Hit someone when drunk or high, and it becomes Assault with a deadly weapon. 5-10 years should be good in most states for this Felony.
Kill someone when drunk or high, it becomes Murder 1. 25 to Life should sort this out.

Punish the ones who actually commit harm against another person, not an imaginary hypothetical.

brickboy240

04-11-16, 11:40

That would never happen.

The current DWI system and laws are a money maker for municipalities and lawyers.

Defaultmp3

04-11-16, 12:11

Weeks after the OBL raid a CH-47 Chinook carrying 22 Seals crashed in Afghanistan killing everyone on board including Seals who were involved in that raid.I know I'm late, and it's off topic, but is there proof of this? I had heard that while it was Navy SMU fatalities in that crash/shootdown, they were from a different squadron (supposedly Gold Squadron), and none of them had partaken in Operation Neptune Spear (supposedly Red Squadron for the most part).

Dist. Expert 26

04-11-16, 12:51

I know I'm late, and it's off topic, but is there proof of this? I had heard that while it was Navy SMU fatalities in that crash/shootdown, they were from a different squadron (supposedly Gold Squadron), and none of them had partaken in Operation Neptune Spear (supposedly Red Squadron for the most part).

According to the book, Neptune Spear was conducted with senior operators from every squadron. So it's entirely likely that some of them participated.

Hootiewho

04-11-16, 13:37

That would never happen.

The current DWI system and laws are a money maker for municipalities and lawyers.

Bingo.

Irish

04-11-16, 16:41

No wanting to be a dick, but there is no constitutional right to drive. You agree that you will take a breath/blood test if arrested for DUI when you sign on to drive.
Nobody asked me if I agreed to consenting to a test when I've obtained a DL in several different states.

I would be fine if DUI/DWI laws were removed completely.

However, Hit someone when drunk or high, and it becomes Assault with a deadly weapon. 5-10 years should be good in most states for this Felony.
Kill someone when drunk or high, it becomes Murder 1. 25 to Life should sort this out.

Punish the ones who actually commit harm against another person, not an imaginary hypothetical.
Too much money to be made. Otherwise, I agree with you.

Vandal

04-11-16, 17:12

You give consent by getting your DL. Part of that whole "driving is a privilege" thing. In most states it is known as Implied Consent.

Primus Pilum

04-11-16, 17:55

You give consent by getting your DL. Part of that whole "driving is a privilege" thing. In most states it is known as Implied Consent.

Which if you read the actual thread, you would see is bullshit pretext.

How about in order to go to public school, you give up the right for Law enforcement to search you house anytime without a warrant, or any other civil right? So you get to be dumb, poor and uneducated with civil rights or you do what you have to.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/nevada/nevada-s-implied-consent-law-ruled-unconstitutional

Irish

04-11-16, 18:11

You give consent by getting your DL. Part of that whole "driving is a privilege" thing. In most states it is known as Implied Consent.

Girl gets smashed, goes to dude's house, removes clothes and passes out. That's implied consent right? She came over to dude's house and removed her clothes so whatever happens is fair game, right?

https://i1.wp.com/i789.photobucket.com/albums/yy172/FrancoisTremblay/Blog%20images/save_zps0e38602b.png?zoom=2

Firefly

04-11-16, 18:17

Driving isn't a privilege.
It's a "qualified Right".

Nobody can bar you from interstate travel nor from owning and driving a car.

However, the roads are considered government property and subject to government regulations So you can travel all you want but you can't use a car on the king's roads without king's permission.

But you can drive to your hearts content on your own land or a private track

On the fine print of every license application it does specify implied consent. Officer MUST read you IC before asking you to submit.

I think "DUI anywhere" is a technical overreach, despite totally discouraging anyone to be DUI.

If you own a farm.and want to drink Jim Bean and have hundreds of acres and want to drink drive into a tree then that should be a personal problem.

But then again the whole MADD bunch.
I'm not against MADD or at least not its initial intent. But as with all things it had to keep going on and going and people capitalized on it.

Same with the text and drive spiel or the seatbelt deal. It just gets tickets.
It won't save anyone.

People think a ticket, weekend jail, and suspending a license will magically keep them from driving.

Firefly

04-11-16, 18:25

Girl gets smashed, goes to dude's house, removes clothes and passes out. That's implied consent right? She came over to dude's house and removed her clothes so whatever happens is fair game, right?

Apples to Oranges.

Your scenario is someone just wanting a place to sleep. You can tell her to piss off or give her shelter. As far as it goes. Nobody is owed or entitled to anything.

When you apply for a license to drive you are affirming that you are agreeing to act in accordance to all motor vehicle statutes, that it is incumbent upon you, the licensee, to be aware of said statutes, including Implied Consent, and that you are subject to penalty.

You can always not get a license to drive and just get a standard non-driver ID card and not drive on government road.

Not saying I agree with all of it but that is pretty much the standard in every state

Primus Pilum

04-11-16, 18:37

Apples to Oranges.

Your scenario is someone just wanting a place to sleep. You can tell her to piss off or give her shelter. As far as it goes. Nobody is owed or entitled to anything.

When you apply for a license to drive you are affirming that you are agreeing to act in accordance to all motor vehicle statutes, that it is incumbent upon you, the licensee, to be aware of said statutes, including Implied Consent, and that you are subject to penalty.

You can always not get a license to drive and just get a standard non-driver ID card and not drive on government road.

Not saying I agree with all of it but that is pretty much the standard in every state

Negative, IC was already struck down by the SC. You should do some reading on the subject. States are dropping one by one now.

Firefly

04-11-16, 18:43

Negative, IC was already struck down by the SC. You should do some reading on the subject. States are dropping one by one now.

I doubt that. Gonna need a link.
I know for a fact it's safely in place in the South.

ETA Cursory googling says it is under review for a case in Minnesota.
Apparently they were compelling folks without a warrant. If I have PC, I can get a judge to sign a warrant and do an involuntary draw. I cannot however make you do anything if you refuse IC unless I get a warrant first. I CAN however charge you with DUI refusal for not taking a test. The DUI refusal actually calls for automatic suspension upon conviction

No place has it struck down that I could find

Averageman

04-11-16, 19:07

You get older you get a little wiser I guess, I was thinking;
"Geeze I hope She's not going to pee on my couch."

Primus Pilum

04-11-16, 19:09

I doubt that. Gonna need a link.
I know for a fact it's safely in place in the South.

ETA Cursory googling says it is under review for a case in Minnesota.
Apparently they were compelling folks without a warrant. If I have PC, I can get a judge to sign a warrant and do an involuntary draw. I cannot however make you do anything if you refuse IC unless I get a warrant first. I CAN however charge you with DUI refusal for not taking a test. The DUI refusal actually calls for automatic suspension upon conviction

No place has it struck down that I could find

I posted the link at the top of the page. Does anyone read the threads before posting?

PC/Warrant and IC are two different things. States were drawing without a warrant/PC which is the issue. Cops getting frivolous warrants and/or cooking the info before it goes before a judge is a whole nother topic.

elephant

04-11-16, 19:31

Girl gets smashed, goes to dude's house, removes clothes and passes out. That's implied consent right? She came over to dude's house and removed her clothes so whatever happens is fair game, right?

What was said before she passed out? Her intentions were pretty clear if she drove to your home and stripped. If Adriana Lima, Miranda Kerr or Alessandro Ambrosia got shitfaced, came over to my house and stripped? Sounds like a green light to me!

J8127

04-11-16, 19:33

Good thing the law disagrees with you.

elephant

04-11-16, 19:45

Know body knows a persons intentions, the law was created around a persons actions, not hypothetical and make belief situations that district attorneys create to prosecute someone for. That's why we now have conspiracy laws and intent laws. If your found with a gram of weed, under law, you are now in possession with the intent to distribute. You can be prosecuted and go to jail for conspiracy which is 2 people just talking about committing a crime and not actually carrying it out. The law is not on your side. Every judge or DA campaigns on "tough on crime". Which basically means, they are tough on everyone. This country is notorious for the frontier justice system we have. Its not going away. We prosecute anyone, we put murderers away for 10 years and pot heads away for 25 years. And we actually liberate countries with dictators that are not much worse than our government.

Vandal

04-11-16, 19:46

Firefly

04-11-16, 19:52

I posted the link at the top of the page. Does anyone read the threads before posting?

PC/Warrant and IC are two different things. States were drawing without a warrant/PC which is the issue. Cops getting frivolous warrants and/or cooking the info before it goes before a judge is a whole nother topic.

I read your link. And yes, PC and Warrant and IC ARE two different things. Which is why, by your article, the NV state Supreme Court (not SCOTUS) gigged them. They were doing things without a warrant.

You can refuse IC all day long. The penalty is, by design, more severe than an actual DUI charge for refusing IC. If they have the resources they can get a warrant and do a blood draw, which is legal.

There is no "domino effect" of states abandoning their Implied Consent statutes.
But there are officers and agencies not following procedure which is nothing new and are getting gigged.

A well versed officer will have video to buttress their PC for a warrant plus if a jail intake thinks they are at risk of alcohol poisoning; they won't take them until a doctor clears them. But most of the time they just write em up for DUI refusal, present evidence, and let judge decide.

Most "No Refusal" arrests are when they have blood collection on site and a skype or teleconference with a judge to sign off. Which...I sorta don't agree with but whatever.

This isn't as hard as it seems