View Full Version : More fodder for the KeyMod vs MLOK debate..
I'm a big Tango Down fan and really dig their KM-attached stubby VFG, but would also dig an MLOK version.
So I asked em when their MLOK version's comin out:
ME:
"Hi,
I was wondering if you are working on an MLOK version of your:
TangoDown Vertical Fore Grip KEYMOD BGV-KM1
I love your products and hope this is in the works!
Thanks,
XXXXXXX"
TD:
"Hello ,
Sorry but we are not supporting the MLOK system and have no plans to do so. We feel the KEYMOD is superior and will out last MLOK."
Interesting. I know they're losing out on a buying customer here at least.
Wow. That is just moronic.
There's a lot of money to be made from all the folks who use the special needs grip.
Before people lose their shit over which camp they are a fanboi of, the point of this thread is to be upset over manufacturer support of a given system, correct?
Wow. That is just moronic.
There's a lot of money to be made from all the folks who use the special needs grip.
Why do you think it is moronic on their part? They are choosing to invest in the platform they believe is better.
Why do you think it is moronic on their part? They are choosing to invest in the platform they believe is better.
Because it's a stupid business move and they're leaving a lot of money on the table by not supporting a popular option. It has nothing to do with personal preference but market reality.
El Pistolero
04-10-16, 14:04
Because it's a stupid business move and they're leaving a lot of money on the table by not supporting a popular option. It has nothing to do with personal preference but market reality.
Why do you care about their business decisions? Do you own stock in TangoDown?
556BlackRifle
04-10-16, 14:15
Who cares. It's their company to run however they see fit. They'll either survive or they won't. Not my call. I buy what I like and don't buy what I don't like. I can't tell you how many of my friends bitch about Apple and how inept leadership is - meanwhile, Apple keeps making money. I guess we'll see if KeyMod and M Lok are still around in ten years or so.
BTW, I just bought my first M-Lok rail. My first accessory for this rail was purchased from Arisaka. I have to say fit finish and design are superb!
Eurodriver
04-10-16, 14:28
Does BCM offer MLOK components?
Why do you care about their business decisions? Do you own stock in TangoDown?
Do I need to have a financial interest in something to express a common sense opinion? Not sure where you're going with this. Do you disagree with my opinion?
I have both KM and ML.
JackFanToM
04-10-16, 14:33
...so this same question was asked several times to BCM, if they were going to turn out MLOK gear, and just cause I wanted to demonstrate how that question wasn't well thought out, I asked the same question to magpul re:km. I received some pretty heated replies from several people on this forum, and a reply from magpul that I expected.
Currently many companies are having a hard enough time keeping up with demand for one platform. Retooling to do the other seems pretty cost ineffective when you can barely meet demand for the other.
I still do not understand why anyone wants to see one platform win over the other, as free market leads to lower prices for the end user, and more innovation.
On another note, anyone in here have the capability of machining a design for a qd km system I have sketched out? I have neither the skill or the equipment to actually take my design to a working model, but would be happy to partner with someone (no I didn't choose km over MLOK I just saw a need and had an idea)
Their decision, left or right, notwithstanding; I believe Tangodown and BCM share a very similar set of industry advisers.
Which can be seen often in the products of each company.
El Pistolero
04-10-16, 14:41
Do I need to have a financial interest in something to express a common sense opinion? Not sure where you're going with this. Do you disagree with my opinion?
I have both KM and ML.
I thought you were mainly complaining about their business decision but after re-reading your original post I see that you want the same TD grip in M-lok, but since they don't offer it have you considered an M-lok-to-Keymod adapter?
I have a Spike's receiver set built with a KM rail. Chose the KM to have the maximum number of peni on my rifle just because it bothers some people. Something like 27 peni. Don't remember.
The fanboy stuff is funny.
I thought you were mainly complaining about their business decision but after re-reading your original post I see that you want the same TD grip in M-lok, but since they don't offer it have you considered an M-lok-to-Keymod adapter?
I think the business decision is silly. But mainly was making fun of VFRs.
I'm a big Tango Down fan and really dig their KM-attached stubby VFG, but would also dig an MLOK version.
So I asked em when their MLOK version's comin out:
ME:
"Hi,
I was wondering if you are working on an MLOK version of your:
TangoDown Vertical Fore Grip KEYMOD BGV-KM1
I love your products and hope this is in the works!
Thanks,
XXXXXXX"
TD:
"Hello ,
Sorry but we are not supporting the MLOK system and have no plans to do so. We feel the KEYMOD is superior and will out last MLOK."
Interesting. I know they're losing out on a buying customer here at least.
Can you send me links for other plastic molding companies that make M-LOK compatible components?
C4
titsonritz
04-10-16, 15:12
Wow. That is just moronic.
There's a lot of money to be made from all the folks who use the special needs grip.
So does that make BCM, Vltor, etc. moronic?
Can you send me links for other plastic molding companies that make M-LOK compatible components?
C4
What a strange request Grant.
What a strange request Grant.
No, not really. Besides Magpul, what other company makes molded plastic MLOK parts??
C4
No, not really. Beside Magpul, what other company makes molded plastic MLOK parts??
C4
I had to stop and think about that a moment. Very good observation. Clearly a bit of conflict in the market there, with mlok licensing.
I had to stop and think about that a moment. Very good observation. Clearly a bit of conflict in the market there, with mlok licensing.
;-)
C4
MeanCarbine
04-10-16, 16:27
Although not a vertical grip, Griffin Armament has M-LOK rail covers.
http://www.griffinarmament.com/Griffin-Armament-Rail-Shield-4-Piece-M-Lok-Furnitu-p/garsblk.htm
Wow. That is just moronic.
There's a lot of money to be made from all the folks who use the special needs grip.
If that's the way you feel that's fine, don't purchase their products. No need to bad mouth a company for standing by what they are invested in and believe to be superior in their opinion. If you don't like a certain system, you are not forced to buy it, spend money on what you believe is best for you. What others support and believe should not matter to you, especially when you are not financially vested in that business.
SomeOtherGuy
04-10-16, 16:36
I'm a big Tango Down fan and really dig their KM-attached stubby VFG, but would also dig an MLOK version. So I asked em when their MLOK version's comin out:
ME:
"Hi,
I was wondering if you are working on an MLOK version of your:
TangoDown Vertical Fore Grip KEYMOD BGV-KM1
I love your products and hope this is in the works!
Thanks,
XXXXXXX"
TD:
"Hello ,
Sorry but we are not supporting the MLOK system and have no plans to do so. We feel the KEYMOD is superior and will out last MLOK."
Interesting. I know they're losing out on a buying customer here at least.
I get the sense that Keymod was quickly chosen by some top companies, probably due to lack of any alternatives, and when the MLOK system came along later there seems to be unreasonable resistance from a combination of:
1) Not invented here! (Never mind that this is also true of KM, unless your name is VLTOR, though it's complicated for BCM giving their hiring of the KM engineer.)
2) Already invested in KM and are "hoping" MLOK will go away so it doesn't undermine their investment.
3) Magpul is big/scary/affordable to non-tier 1 people/lacks tactical snob appeal/whatever and don't want to be associated with it.
Like most things the market will decide, but I think a lot of us have concluded that MLOK is a very practical and functional system and KM isn't compelling. I'll take 0.4 ounce of handguard weight (or whatever) for a handguard that costs $20 less with accessories that don't pull out or come loose. Not looking like garage shelving is also a plus, but not an important factor.
If the companies are sensible they will keep watching the adoption data and start offering MLOK if it has a consistent, significant user base - it doesn't need to be a majority or anywhere close, just enough to justify sales - but I think that some of them are, at this time, trying to fight off MLOK in order to address their sunk costs in KM, and in the process are giving a number of other companies that offer both systems a head start in selling their products. I can't imagine that they would have any trouble making and offering MLOK versions if they wanted to do so.
BCM, TD, VLTOR - you are losing my near-future sales by not offering MLOK, FYI. And even if Keymod stays around forever, it's not likely that MLOK is going away.
Although not a vertical grip, Griffin Armament has M-LOK rail covers.
http://www.griffinarmament.com/Griffin-Armament-Rail-Shield-4-Piece-M-Lok-Furnitu-p/garsblk.htm
Strike Industries and TROY also make polymer MLOK rail covers.
It took quite a while before KeyMod had some real accessories, looks like MLOK will be the same.
Although not a vertical grip, Griffin Armament has M-LOK rail covers.
http://www.griffinarmament.com/Griffin-Armament-Rail-Shield-4-Piece-M-Lok-Furnitu-p/garsblk.htm
Those are rail panels. You can take existing panels and then add MLOK hardware to them.
Am looking for direct interfaced items (like VG's, light mounts, etc) with MLOK components molded in.
C4
Strike Industries and TROY also make polymer MLOK rail covers.
It took quite a while before KeyMod had some real accessories, looks like MLOK will be the same.
Note that they are all rail panels and nothing else and in most instances, are metal.
C4
I had to stop and think about that a moment. Very good observation. Clearly a bit of conflict in the market there, with mlok licensing.
What does any of this have to do with MLOK's free licensing?
Does Magpul say they're the only ones that can manufacture/sell polymer MLOK accessories?
What am I missing here? If it's polymer, it can only be Magpul?
I get the sense that Keymod was quickly chosen by some top companies, probably due to lack of any alternatives, and when the MLOK system came along later there seems to be unreasonable resistance from a combination of:
1) Not invented here! (Never mind that this is also true of KM, unless your name is VLTOR, though it's complicated for BCM giving their hiring of the KM engineer.)
2) Already invested in KM and are "hoping" MLOK will go away so it doesn't undermine their investment.
3) Magpul is big/scary/affordable to non-tier 1 people/lacks tactical snob appeal/whatever and don't want to be associated with it.
Like most things the market will decide, but I think a lot of us have concluded that MLOK is a very practical and functional system and KM isn't compelling. I'll take 0.4 ounce of handguard weight (or whatever) for a handguard that costs $20 less with accessories that don't pull out or come loose. Not looking like garage shelving is also a plus, but not an important factor.
If the companies are sensible they will keep watching the adoption data and start offering MLOK if it has a consistent, significant user base - it doesn't need to be a majority or anywhere close, just enough to justify sales - but I think that some of them are, at this time, trying to fight off MLOK in order to address their sunk costs in KM, and in the process are giving a number of other companies that offer both systems a head start in selling their products. I can't imagine that they would have any trouble making and offering MLOK versions if they wanted to do so.
BCM, TD, VLTOR - you are losing my near-future sales by not offering MLOK, FYI. And even if Keymod stays around forever, it's not likely that MLOK is going away.
When I read things like this, I have to laugh. If people only knew how many KMR's rails are sold in a month, they wouldn't say things like "VLTOR and BCM are losing."
The truth is the MLOK isn't going anywhere and neither is KM. While MLOK will always have the advantage on cheaper accessories, the KMR is one of them best engineered rails on the market today. In the end, this is what people pay attention to the most.
C4
Note that they are all rail panels and nothing else and in most instances, are metal.
C4
Prime example (very easily could've been polymer, but isn't):
http://www.primaryarms.com/shds-ml0-00bt-00/p/shds-ml0-00bt-00/
Bravo can hardly keep up with the demand fast enough for their KMR and KMR-A uppers/forends, but by all means they should re-tool, diversify, and spread themselves even thinner.
[/sarcasm]
El Pistolero
04-10-16, 17:52
I get the sense that Keymod was quickly chosen by some top companies, probably due to lack of any alternatives, and when the MLOK system came along later there seems to be unreasonable resistance from a combination of:
1) Not invented here! (Never mind that this is also true of KM, unless your name is VLTOR, though it's complicated for BCM giving their hiring of the KM engineer.)
2) Already invested in KM and are "hoping" MLOK will go away so it doesn't undermine their investment.
3) Magpul is big/scary/affordable to non-tier 1 people/lacks tactical snob appeal/whatever and don't want to be associated with it.
Like most things the market will decide, but I think a lot of us have concluded that MLOK is a very practical and functional system and KM isn't compelling. I'll take 0.4 ounce of handguard weight (or whatever) for a handguard that costs $20 less with accessories that don't pull out or come loose. Not looking like garage shelving is also a plus, but not an important factor.
If the companies are sensible they will keep watching the adoption data and start offering MLOK if it has a consistent, significant user base - it doesn't need to be a majority or anywhere close, just enough to justify sales - but I think that some of them are, at this time, trying to fight off MLOK in order to address their sunk costs in KM, and in the process are giving a number of other companies that offer both systems a head start in selling their products. I can't imagine that they would have any trouble making and offering MLOK versions if they wanted to do so.
BCM, TD, VLTOR - you are losing my near-future sales by not offering MLOK, FYI. And even if Keymod stays around forever, it's not likely that MLOK is going away.
At some point we're going to have to stop perpetuating the myth that Keymod accessories "pull out" or "loosen". It's simply not true with properly-designed accessories.
JackFanToM
04-10-16, 17:54
Someotherguy that was the most counterproductive and biased post yet. Again, anyone hoping that one design fails is narrow minded, unrealistic, and has no real understanding of freemarket.
The KMR is the most innovative rail on the market, and I'm not referring to the accessory mounting system. That innovation will drive future innovation.
The MLOK innovation was not a response to a weakness in KM, as some like to believe, but an innovation in design to accommodate magpuls polymer rails.
The inter web is full of misinformation, and it is sad how many people just buy in rather than look for themselves.
Prime example (very easily could've been polymer, but isn't):
http://www.primaryarms.com/shds-ml0-00bt-00/p/shds-ml0-00bt-00/
Correct. It is alum when it SHOULD have been made out of polymer.
C4
At some point we're going to have to stop perpetuating the myth that Keymod accessories "pull out" or "loosen". It's simply not true with properly-designed accessories.
True. It is a lie.
C4
What does any of this have to do with MLOK's free licensing?
Does Magpul say they're the only ones that can manufacture/sell polymer MLOK accessories?
What am I missing here? If it's polymer, it can only be Magpul?
If I am a molded plastics manufacturer in the firearms industry, why would I put on my product the logo of the leading molded plastics manufacturer in the industry? Why would I choose to perpetuate their product?
SomeOtherGuy
04-10-16, 18:44
Someotherguy that was the most counterproductive and biased post yet. Again, anyone hoping that one design fails is narrow minded, unrealistic, and has no real understanding of freemarket.
The KMR is the most innovative rail on the market, and I'm not referring to the accessory mounting system. That innovation will drive future innovation.
The MLOK innovation was not a response to a weakness in KM, as some like to believe, but an innovation in design to accommodate magpuls polymer rails.
The inter web is full of misinformation, and it is sad how many people just buy in rather than look for themselves.
1) I don't see anywhere in my post that I was hoping KM fails, or telling any company to stop making KM products. I only said that I'm personally not planning to buy any, so if a company doesn't offer them they aren't going to see my business on that end of things. I also suggested that companies watch sales data to determine whether to offer MLOK. Do you think that's a bad way for a profit-seeking company to decide what products to offer?
2) I have looked rather extensively myself, thanks for the suggestion. Have you taken a serious and detached look at both systems? It's very easy for someone - end user, engineer, company - who has bought into one system to simply generate "reasons" why a newer system is no good.
I don't want this thread to turn into a low-level argument that doesn't get to the merits of the systems or the commercial considerations of offering one or the other. It was started by someone who hoped that TD would offer MLOK accessories and sharing that company's response that they had no plans to do so. My comments went to my similar views and thoughts on the poor commercial decision of not offering products for the MLOK system, even if a company considers their current offering a superior system. A company can decide what to offer. We decide what to buy. Some of us like certain companies and hope they will offer the products we're interested in, and use this forum as one way to communicate that desire to them. It IS foolish for a company to disregard the product interests of its past, repeat, or most eager customers.
So what's the endgame? Is there room for keymod and mlok both on the market, or is this VHS and Betamax all over again?
So what's the endgame? Is there room for keymod and mlok both on the market, or is this VHS and Betamax all over again?
As there is both room for polymer magazines and aluminum, for 9mm and .45ACP, there is most certainly for KM and MLOK. VHS/Betamax was more an issue of distribution.
As there is both room for polymer magazines and aluminum, for 9mm and .45ACP, there is most certainly for KM and MLOK. VHS/Betamax was more an issue of distribution.
That's a good response, thank you. I hope you're right, but I also hope that we don't miss out on good products due to exclusive agreements, like what happened with HDDVD and BluRay, or we continue to see happening with Netflix and everything that pretends to be Netflix.
So what's the endgame? Is there room for keymod and mlok both on the market, or is this VHS and Betamax all over again?
It's more like Xbox vs PlayStation. Room for both
It's more like Xbox vs PlayStation. Room for both
Another excellent response, thank you. I have both Xbox and PlayStation, like many have keymod and mlok, but sadly I can never play Gears of War on PlayStation, nor Uncharted on Xbox. You're right that there's room on the market for both, but users who choose only one may miss out.
JackFanToM
04-10-16, 19:19
Maybe the intentions of what you stated above isn't what I read, but it appears to me that YOU decided that one was better than the other, not the market. First, the whole pull out or come loose statement is utter BS. Second, why (again I say this) would a company consider retooling when they cannot keep the product they are already manufacturing on the shelf.
Yes I took a hard look at both, and in the end I decided weight ( the .4 oz statement was rather uniformed, as the difference between the KMR and the KMR A is greater than that 2.2oz) was a primary factor, as is the hand guard's attachment to the barrel nut method. I think the MLOK is a great design, and I have no bias towards either ATTACHMENT system, only that the weight and the way the hand guard itself attaches to the barrel nut on the KMR is what sold me (I remember humping all that gear in Corps, and those that scoff at a few extra ounces either are in much better shape than I was or never did so).
Despite what you think, when you spread BS over the internet regarding a product, you mislead people. "I'll take 0.4 ounce of handguard weight (or whatever) for a handguard that costs $20 less with accessories that don't pull out or come loose." That is misinformation, and hardly helpful.
If I am a molded plastics manufacturer in the firearms industry, why would I put on my product the logo of the leading molded plastics manufacturer in the industry? Why would I choose to perpetuate their product?
Because you'll make a $hit-ton of cash. And it's the MLOK logo, not Magpuls logo. There's a difference.
Because you'll make a $hit-ton of cash. And it's the MLOK logo, not Magpuls logo. There's a difference.
What evidence do you have to support the claim that a business in that situation would be making 'a shit ton of cash?' Or is that just a feeling you have?
KITTEN_FRENZY
04-10-16, 21:17
It's more like Xbox vs PlayStation. Room for both
Come on now... Everyone knows PS4 is superior to xbone
Because you'll make a $hit-ton of cash. And it's the MLOK logo, not Magpuls logo. There's a difference.
The MLOK logo is a trademarked Magpul logo.
At some point we're going to have to stop perpetuating the myth that Keymod accessories "pull out" or "loosen". It's simply not true with properly-designed accessories.
and just as important, properly installed accessories.
Their decision, left or right, notwithstanding; I believe Tangodown and BCM share a very similar set of industry advisers.
Which can be seen often in the products of each company.
who are their industry advisers?
I would very much like to know who is getting credit for some of the advice manufacturers are getting.
So does that make BCM, Vltor, etc. moronic?
No, it makes them affiliated with Eric Kinsel. *possible spelling error.
This is politics and friends, not technical datum and market polling.
who are their industry advisers?
I would very much like to know who is getting credit for some of the advice manufacturers are getting.
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/gunfighters/index.php
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/gunfighters/index.php
but who's advising them?
but who's advising them?
They are the advisers, for a variety of companies including tango down and bcm.
It's more like Xbox vs PlayStation. Room for both
Yep. Especially since there are people making adapters that go both ways and some making components that are compatible with both. Just my SWAG as an engineer, neither seems far and away the better design across the board. Like any other design solution, both have their strengths and weaknesses. IMO they're just very different but still good solutions to a particular problem. Pick what you like and roll with it.
A lot of people jumping onto the mlok bandwagon, me and some friends included. BCM doesn't want to get into mlok rails then no big deal...a lot of other quality manufacturers already have. The beauty of a free market is competition...another company is always free to dilute the customer base.
They are the advisers, for a variety of companies including tango down and bcm.
but who's advising the advisors?
So what's the endgame? Is there room for keymod and mlok both on the market, or is this VHS and Betamax all over again?
This analogy comes up over and over but it doesn't make sense to me.
VHS and Betamax were completely dependent on the release and propagation of continuous content for their success. If movies were not available then the machine was obsolete and worthless.
Fortunately, ammo doesn't care what kind of rail you have. You buy the mounts for what you need for the rifle and you don't need people to continue to release relevant content for your hand guard.
I guess I see where the comparison comes from (competing brands / protocols etc) but it's so fundamentally different that it seems to dramatically inflate the perception that one needs to 'win.'
I really like keymod but if BCM decides to quit supporting it I'm not going to slit my wrists because I have light mounts and rail covers already.
My point is: continuous content is bullets.
Auto-X Fil
04-11-16, 11:33
This analogy comes up over and over but it doesn't make sense to me.
VHS and Betamax were completely dependent on the release and propagation of continuous content for their success. If movies were not available then the machine was obsolete and worthless.
Fortunately, ammo doesn't care what kind of rail you have. You buy the mounts for what you need for the rifle and you don't need people to continue to release relevant content for your hand guard.
I guess I see where the comparison comes from (competing brands / protocols etc) but it's so fundamentally different that it seems to dramatically inflate the perception that one needs to 'win.'
I really like keymod but if BCM decides to quit supporting it I'm not going to slit my wrists because I have light mounts and rail covers already.
My point is: continuous content is bullets.
Good points. VHS/Betamax is more like a caliber war. 300 RSAUM vs. 300 WSM, etc.
There are already a bunch of standards - but if the standard line-issue weapons for Big Green get KeyMod or M-Lok, that will make it a defacto standard, and the other will probably fade. Barring that, we will have our choice for a long time. Until something else comes along, anyway.
but who's advising the advisors?
Are you serious? Have you read any of those peoples bio's?
Pick what you like and roll with it.
Well that's the problem. Seems you have to go KeyMod if you want any non-Magpul polymer accessories.
Which is why I started the thread. When it seems manus have banded together to refuse to make stuff, it makes picking what I like and rolling with it limited.
Either that or they're still gauging interest..
Well that's the problem. Seems you have to go KeyMod if you want any non-Magpul polymer accessories.
Which is why I started the thread. When it seems manus have banded together to refuse to make stuff, it makes picking what I like and rolling with it limited.
Either that or they're still gauging interest..
Considering the item you want isn't a magpul product, what's the problem then
Considering the item you want isn't a magpul product, what's the problem then
Huh??
I feel like we facilitate a need to spend money. If keymod nor m-lok had a pusher we would still be using standard pucatinny rails. Its probably best to put your money elsewhere if you feel that their product is suffering bc of marketing because that could ultimately lead to a crash in support.
As a new guy to build your own ARs I choose an M-Lok rail because every gun shop has sections of polymer and metal M-Lok rails. I did find a BCM accessory that I want so I can mount it to a rail section or look at other companies. Many of the rail manufacturers are offering both. I doubt that they have to pay Magpul and Vltor royalties but I may be mistaken. It's basically a caliber war type argument.
Sent from my bunker in the desert using Tapatalk
Novel concept here...
If a company doesn't offer what you want, lay down the cash and start making it yourself.
MajorLonghorn
04-12-16, 01:05
With KeyMod, all one has to do is tighten down the screws. With every M-Lok accessory that I've used thusfar, you have to set the T-nuts the appropriate height to account for the thickness of the rail, and then tighten the screws. I understand that M-Lok works with polymer rails and KeyMod doesn't, so there's that. Aside from that, however, I prefer KeyMod.
SomeOtherGuy
04-12-16, 09:20
As a new guy to build your own ARs I choose an M-Lok rail because every gun shop has sections of polymer and metal M-Lok rails. I did find a BCM accessory that I want so I can mount it to a rail section or look at other companies. Many of the rail manufacturers are offering both.
:)
I doubt that they have to pay Magpul and Vltor royalties but I may be mistaken. It's basically a caliber war type argument.
Both systems are free for manufacturers to adopt. MLOK has a no-charge license, while KM is open source. That means anything with the MLOK logo "should" be from a company that has a license from Magpul (not sure if it's Magpul itself or a special entity they set up), while anyone can make something and call it "Key Mod" and there is no outside quality control on whether it meets spec. Some of the reported issues with some KM accessories may be from out of spec accessories. I don't know. (And not trying to re-open that argument.)
With KeyMod, all one has to do is tighten down the screws. With every M-Lok accessory that I've used thusfar, you have to set the T-nuts the appropriate height to account for the thickness of the rail, and then tighten the screws. I understand that M-Lok works with polymer rails and KeyMod doesn't, so there's that. Aside from that, however, I prefer KeyMod.
Yes, that's correct for MLOK. It's a slight extra hassle at initial set-up, but doesn't have to be done again unless you're switching the accessory among rails with widely different thicknesses (generally metal to polymer or the reverse).
Well that's the problem. Seems you have to go KeyMod if you want any non-Magpul polymer accessories.
Which is why I started the thread. When it seems manus have banded together to refuse to make stuff, it makes picking what I like and rolling with it limited.
Either that or they're still gauging interest..
That's why I said get an adapter. MI makes em as do a couple other companies iirc.
JackFanToM
04-12-16, 14:05
Consider this, the demand in the market for both types of mounting system accessories is extremely high. The manufacturing companies are doing their best to keep up with demand of the items they support currently. My bet is that they aren't considering any new items, as they simply don't have the capacity.
Someone stated that a lot of money is left on the table, but that is only true if you already have the space, equipment and assembly line in place. Otherwise you are looking at a large output of capital (and labor dollars) for a "potential" gain.
I've said it before, we don't know what we don't know, and the next major innovation could be merely months away and not years.
wilson1911
04-12-16, 14:39
I have no dog in this fight, but what I am wondering is how come the majority of PRS rifle shooters say keymod sucks and comes loose ? Does anyone have any experience in this ?
JackFanToM
04-12-16, 14:44
It always comes down to improperly installed accessories or out of spec accessories (or the usual heard it from a guy/operator/industry pro, etc. )
Fatorangecat
04-12-16, 14:44
Companies are making money selling both so what's the incentive to ditch one over the other? These "versus" threads are hysterical because in the end nobody wants to be wearing last years Nikes. We want one system to prevail so we can all have the latest and greatest. I have used both and they both work if properly installed and torqued.
Companies are making money selling both so what's the incentive to ditch one over the other? These "versus" threads are hysterical because in the end nobody wants to be wearing last years Nikes. We want one system to prevail so we can all have the latest and greatest. I have used both and they both work if properly installed and torqued.
The VS and "which is best" stuff does get old. Requirements come before determining what is "best" and everyone's "best" isn't necessarily the same. Determine what your requirements are, then figure out what suits your needs. Asking for advice from the more experienced and knowledgeable is great, but do it in context that makes logical sense.
It always comes down to improperly installed accessories or out of spec accessories (or the usual heard it from a guy/operator/industry pro, etc. )
I was one that wondered why my keymod was coming loose all the time. I learned I was not properly installing my 1913 rails, so I did a test, installing a section properly and another section improperly. I hung some gear to put a load on them and did as I had before, storing and occasionally shooting. No surprise, my improper install got loose while my properly installed section stayed tight. I redid the test, switching position on the HG and accessories every couple weeks. Every time the properly installed gear stayed tight. I concluded the problem was me and not they gear. BTW the gear is a KMR and a few sections of 1913 BCM sent me, both poly and alum, neither material made a difference when installed properly or not. I reinstalled all the pieces properly and they have not budged.
It would be better to think of Vltor/Tango Down/BCM as a camp or even the same company when it comes to this.
While different companies it is obvious the work together and for each other. I think Tango Down does the plastic injection molding for Vltor, and probably BCM. Vltor does engineering for BCM, and probably tango down, there is at least a working connection with Tango Down.
They are Key-Mod, and they are standing against Magpul as a team. Grant alluded to no licensing of injection molding plastic for Mlok to other countries, but he was very vague and and I have seen nothing else to back this. I would believe these companies are trying to limit the market share of their competitor by not selling their product.
I get it, its to bad because prefer M-lok, but like the BCM forward vertical grip and KMR. Oh well...
Meh, still getting that Mlok rail.
YOLO
Well that's the problem. Seems you have to go KeyMod if you want any non-Magpul polymer accessories.
Which is why I started the thread. When it seems manus have banded together to refuse to make stuff, it makes picking what I like and rolling with it limited.
Either that or they're still gauging interest..
Quite honestly, I think that's exactly what Magpul intended. And people have bought into their marketing, hook, line and sinker.
I'm just still pissed off that Geissele discontinued making KM rails!
Quite honestly, I think that's exactly what Magpul intended. And people have bought into their marketing, hook, line and sinker.
I'm just still pissed off that Geissele discontinued making KM rails!
I'm sure that was their intention. But one could equally say some people have bought into the KM marketing hook, line, and sinker.
I'm sure both lines will grow, but Magpul does have a lot of traction as a company overall.
It would be better to think of Vltor/Tango Down/BCM as a camp or even the same company when it comes to this.
While different companies it is obvious the work together and for each other. I think Tango Down does the plastic injection molding for Vltor, and probably BCM. Vltor does engineering for BCM, and probably tango down, there is at least a working connection with Tango Down.
They are Key-Mod, and they are standing against Magpul as a team. Grant alluded to no licensing of injection molding plastic for Mlok to other countries, but he was very vague and and I have seen nothing else to back this. I would believe these companies are trying to limit the market share of their competitor by not selling their product.
I get it, its to bad because prefer M-lok, but like the BCM forward vertical grip and KMR. Oh well...
Yes, if you take a look at the textures on all of the BCM/Tango Down/US Palm and other associated products, it is made of a bunch of J's and C's, which stands for Jeff Cahill, and that's where all of these molded things come from for all of these companies.
Now, on the other side of this, Grant alluding that we have someone done any behind the scenes coercing of anyone about producing or not producing M-LOK or producing or not producing KeyMod--that's absolutely ludicrous. However...if you ask around the industry, you may find a whole bunch of folks that have received phone calls from the KeyMod camp trying to convince them not to make M-LOK, including spreading BS rumors, etc.
The reason you don't see more molded M-LOK furniture is probably just that molds are really doggone expensive. The reality is that we openly accept absolutely anyone as an M-LOK manufacturer of any accessory, and anything less would just be silly. We don't do stuff like that. We didn't care if anyone made MOE slots from the old system, either. Plenty of folks made machined accessories, and plenty of machined rail slots could be used with MOE accessories, but no one bothered to make molded furniture with that, either. Another possibility is that other molders may erroneously think that using M-LOK would promote us and be detrimental to their brand. We don't make any more or less from M-LOK than anyone else who makes products for it, in fact, we spend a lot on the engineering time to evaluate compliance and keep the TDP relevant, plus do the administrative stuff regarding the free licenses, so we probably make less per product, all else equal.
As for Grant, it's his site, and I like Grant. But, Grant is also extremely close with BCM and Paul, so whether intentionally, or just through less trust of us than BCM due to his relationships, you can probably see where this whole nonsense notion came from.
JackFanToM
04-13-16, 16:00
Yes, if you take a look at the textures on all of these products, it is made of a bunch of J's and C's, which stands for Jeff Cahill, and that's where all of these molded things come from for all of these companies.
Now, on the other side of this, Grant alluding that we have someone done any behind the scenes coercing of anyone about producing or not producing M-LOK or producing or not producing KeyMod--that's absolutely ludicrous. However...if you ask around the industry, you may find a whole bunch of folks that have received phone calls from the KeyMod camp trying to convince them not to make M-LOK, including spreading BS rumors, etc.
The reason you don't see more molded M-LOK molded furniture is probably just that molds are really doggone expensive. The reality is that we openly accept absolutely anyone as an M-LOK manufacturer of any accessory, and anything less would just be silly. We don't do stuff like that. We didn't care if anyone made MOE slots from the old system, either. Plenty of folks made machined accessories, but no one bothered to make molded furniture with that, either. Another possibility is that other molders may erroneously think that using M-LOK would promote us and be detrimental to their brand. We don't make any more or less from M-LOK than anyone else who makes products for it, in fact, we spend a lot on the engineering time to evaluate compliance and keep the TDP relevant, plus do the administrative stuff regarding the free licenses, so we probably make less per product, all else equal.
As for Grant, it's his site, and I like Grant. But, Grant is also extremely close with BCM and Paul, so whether intentionally, or just through less trust of us than BCM due to his relationships, you can probably see where this whole nonsense notion came from.
Pardon me, but I tend to discount ALL such statements from vendors/manufacturers, as selling their products is their primary function.
I believe both camps will paint the picture from their perception, and I see nothing wrong with it, but I'm not naive enough to buy any of it "hook, line, & sinker".
As I've stated prior, I consider the attachment method secondary to the actual rail itself. This is what causes me to lean towards km. The KMR has an excellent barrel nut attachment system, excellent anti rotation, and is super light.
These are the primary reasons for my purchase of the KMR.
I encourage both camps to continue to push innovation, and at some point we will have a system as light as the KMR, stronger than quad rails, and an idiot resistant (proof is impossible) attachment system. Until then, keep pushing those engineers.
Yes, if you take a look at the textures on all of the BCM/Tango Down/US Palm and other associated products, it is made of a bunch of J's and C's, which stands for Jeff Cahill, and that's where all of these molded things come from for all of these companies.
Now, on the other side of this, Grant alluding that we have someone done any behind the scenes coercing of anyone about producing or not producing M-LOK or producing or not producing KeyMod--that's absolutely ludicrous. However...if you ask around the industry, you may find a whole bunch of folks that have received phone calls from the KeyMod camp trying to convince them not to make M-LOK, including spreading BS rumors, etc.
The reason you don't see more molded M-LOK furniture is probably just that molds are really doggone expensive. The reality is that we openly accept absolutely anyone as an M-LOK manufacturer of any accessory, and anything less would just be silly. We don't do stuff like that. We didn't care if anyone made MOE slots from the old system, either. Plenty of folks made machined accessories, and plenty of machined rail slots could be used with MOE accessories, but no one bothered to make molded furniture with that, either. Another possibility is that other molders may erroneously think that using M-LOK would promote us and be detrimental to their brand. We don't make any more or less from M-LOK than anyone else who makes products for it, in fact, we spend a lot on the engineering time to evaluate compliance and keep the TDP relevant, plus do the administrative stuff regarding the free licenses, so we probably make less per product, all else equal.
As for Grant, it's his site, and I like Grant. But, Grant is also extremely close with BCM and Paul, so whether intentionally, or just through less trust of us than BCM due to his relationships, you can probably see where this whole nonsense notion came from.
I am sorry if you thought I said that Magpul did something illegal or used any type strong arm tactics (as that was not the intent).
Paul and are good friends. By his peers, he is considered one of the most honest and trust worthy folks in the industry. So to be clear, Paul never planted any "notions" with us. After awhile of not seeing ANY polymer MLOK products coming to the market (outside of Magpul), you kind of put two and two together.
C4
justlikeanyoneelse
04-13-16, 18:44
How much kit are you people putting on your rails?
These debates make it sound like your weapons aren't reliable unless you have the "best" accessory mounting system.
Just be happy we have come a long way from duct/electrical tape and clamps.
Grant, I didn't mean to imply impropriety on your part, either--just that you are closer with Paul and perhaps less likely to reach out to us for our side--but I can assure you, we have neither withheld permissions from nor discouraged anyone from making anything M-LOK, ever. Anything that fits the TDP to be compatible is good to go, no matter who makes it. And if BCM, or Tango Down, or US Palm wants to make anything M-LOK in polymer or metal, that's 100% fine with us. In fact, we'd encourage it.
We've also never tried to tell anyone that they had to choose one or the other. If the market wants KeyMod, we expect manufacturers to make KeyMod. If the market wants M-LOK, they can make M-LOK.
I appreciate the transparency from the various parties here. I can see the desire to protect the massive investment made into certain formats and keep the ROI rolling as long as possible. You've gotta hold onto those things and I think that's what's happening here.
However, at some point, you've gotta branch out and be willing to give the market what it wants. Right now that's both formats, without a doubt. There's plenty of other lightweight KM rails besides the KMR and there's plenty of great lightweight MLOK rails out there. I personally expect MLOK to do great, IF it can get more market support.
If I was in the bitness, I'd try my hardest to quickly tool up for any new trend if I could start, support and sustain it.
I was skeptical of MLOK at first until I got a couple rails. It's strong as balls and a good design. But, then, so is KeyMod. Never had issues with my NSRs. John made a very strong KeyMod rail.
I say bring on the freakin' products and let the market decide.
The desire for something new in the industry cannot be ignored for long.
And just prove I'm not kidding, there's this:
http://www.strikeindustries.com/shop/index.php/products/rifle-accessories/ar/handguard/viper-handguard-carbine-length.html#.Vw79bYo8KnM
From a manufacturer of both M-LOK, as well as KeyMod rails, we see about a 3-1 sale of M-LOK over KeyMod. I also tend to recommend it more as the basic accessories that people want, can be had at most of the big box stores (Cabelas, Sportsmans, etc...) Trying to find a basic sling QD for KeyMod in our area is almost impossible unless you go to a specialty shop.
As far as making the products, in order to do it quickly and accurately, we have to have custom tools made to comply with the KeyMod standard, whereas the M-LOK is much more manufacturer friendly.
All of our M-LOK rails are also lighter.
So from my little corner over here (Nobody knows who we are anyhow! ha!) I see M-LOK making a good thrust forward.
Now if we can just keep people in the shop from labeling boxes as "K-Lock" or "M-Mod" it would make inventory a lot less painful! :)
Ryan
Lack of polymer mlok components might just be simple manufacturing and business expediency as much as anything else.
My knowledge of injection molding is second hand but from what I know the molds aren't cheap, they're generally pretty long lead time items and then they make exactly one type of part.
Comparatively a CNC mill and lathe aren't cheap either but have the advantage being able to make multiple different parts on the same machines.
If you as a manufacturer have to pick where to spend your capital, do you go single item or flexible? Since most of these operations are not huge, I'd say the smarter choice is the latter.
BravoCompanyUSA
04-13-16, 22:47
It would be better to think of Vltor/Tango Down/BCM as a camp or even the same company when it comes to this.
While different companies it is obvious the work together and for each other. I think Tango Down does the plastic injection molding for Vltor, and probably BCM. Vltor does engineering for BCM, and probably tango down, there is at least a working connection with Tango Down.
They are Key-Mod, and they are standing against Magpul as a team. Grant alluded to no licensing of injection molding plastic for Mlok to other countries, but he was very vague and and I have seen nothing else to back this. I would believe these companies are trying to limit the market share of their competitor by not selling their product.
I get it, its to bad because prefer M-lok, but like the BCM forward vertical grip and KMR. Oh well...
I don’t mean to call you out but literally every single concept in your post is inaccurate. Every single part.
BravoCompanyUSA
04-13-16, 22:49
Yes, if you take a look at the textures on all of the BCM/Tango Down/US Palm and other associated products, it is made of a bunch of J's and C's, which stands for Jeff Cahill, and that's where all of these molded things come from for all of these companies.
Now, on the other side of this, Grant alluding that we have someone done any behind the scenes coercing of anyone about producing or not producing M-LOK or producing or not producing KeyMod--that's absolutely ludicrous. However...if you ask around the industry, you may find a whole bunch of folks that have received phone calls from the KeyMod camp trying to convince them not to make M-LOK, including spreading BS rumors, etc.
The reason you don't see more molded M-LOK furniture is probably just that molds are really doggone expensive. The reality is that we openly accept absolutely anyone as an M-LOK manufacturer of any accessory, and anything less would just be silly. We don't do stuff like that. We didn't care if anyone made MOE slots from the old system, either. Plenty of folks made machined accessories, and plenty of machined rail slots could be used with MOE accessories, but no one bothered to make molded furniture with that, either. Another possibility is that other molders may erroneously think that using M-LOK would promote us and be detrimental to their brand. We don't make any more or less from M-LOK than anyone else who makes products for it, in fact, we spend a lot on the engineering time to evaluate compliance and keep the TDP relevant, plus do the administrative stuff regarding the free licenses, so we probably make less per product, all else equal.
As for Grant, it's his site, and I like Grant. But, Grant is also extremely close with BCM and Paul, so whether intentionally, or just through less trust of us than BCM due to his relationships, you can probably see where this whole nonsense notion came from.
Another VS thread. I apologize in advance but I don’t read these anymore.
And I did not ready this whole thread and just skimmed the posts on page 8.
J’s and C’s is a wild reach. I would love to see your results on an ink blot test, lol. If I was really that creative they would be B’s. Bravo! As stated in the post above, all of that is inaccurate. They are randomized semi circles burned into the mold by a laser to create a grippy but not too rough texture. Any analysis past that should be reserved for the 911 truther conspiracy crowd, lol.
I do NOT know what the business relationship is between TD and Vltor, but my guess is they are not making parts for each other, etc.
I DO know the exact business relationship between BCM and Vltor, TD, etc. None of those companies do any engineering for BCM (nor have they), they do no tooling for BCM (nor have they), and do no manufacturing for BCM (nor have they). I suspect they each all do their own?
BCM has its own 7 figure engineering and product development operation, and has spent that much or more on its own designs and tooling and fixtures.
The specifics of the relationships are this:
BCM manufactures a standard and an Ambi charging handle design under Vltor’s Patents (US Pat No. 8104393, 8336436, 8356537,…) and pays a royalty.
BCM manufacturers and supplies a metal investment cast KM mount to TD for one of their vertical grip products. This and other BCM parts are available to and purchased by other manufacturers as they wish to use them.
Bravo Co USA (our retail website) carries products from BCM, Vltor, TD, Magpul, DD, Aimpoint, and many other great companies.
And personally I know and like Jeff Cahill. I would definitely call him a friend of mine.
Also on a personal note, Grant is a friend of mine is a SME within this marketplace.
So I think that is full disclosure on topics at hand.
Regarding “camps” I have said this a number of times. BCM in not in one. We will make carry the innovative products that meet the needs of our customers while maintaining our core of Professional Grade Weaponry for the most sophisticated consumers who may find themselves in harm’s way.
Again as I have said many times BCM does not own KeyMod. No one does. Everybody does. The TDP is on Wikipedia for a reason. Unbridled competition to move the industry forward. Regarding allegations that KM stuff falls off – not accurate (unless of course the product has a design flaw – which there were a number of them early on, or user error in installation). We have made and sold KM products to the most elite units, OGAs, etc in the USA and the products have been used successfully some very dark places in the globe. The specifics of which are never for public discussion. But I suspect KM will be around for a long time as one of many standards. The guys who like it, like it.
I am far from a SME on MLok, it suspect it will absolutely continue be successful and is here to stay. Magpul is one of the biggest leaders in the industry so to think otherwise is naïve. The guys who like it, like it.
For that matter Picatinny will also not be going away in the foreseeable future. We actually have a KMR Quad version on the horizon :-)
I have heard rumors of another modular “super system” on the horizon but know no details. But that is the way rumors work.
As far as BCM’s focus now and the immediate future; it was/is to focus on the KM space as the demand is absolutely huge and we have innovative designs to offer the market. As far as BCM making Mlok in the future, while there are no immediate plans we did have good comms with a high ranking gentleman from Magpul regarding Mlock (withholding names, as it is a private conversation). We suspect a BCM Mlok version would sell very well. But our first obligation is to use existing capacity to keep our distribution network full of KMRs, etc. And that is no easy task as the demand on that product is absolutely beyond even our most optimistic projections. Wow, and thank you!
Thank you Paul, Ryan, and Duane for your insight from 3 different parts of the industry. Very informative and interesting stuff.
Agreed. Excellent, and thank you.
556BlackRifle
04-14-16, 09:34
Paul, great post - thank you for setting the record straight.
I figured you'd pop in for that. Thanks for joining, Paul.
Drake said he was going to call after the last mention that no one had reached out to you guys about doing M-LOK. He does all the OEM relationships and handles the M-LOK licenses, so he's the guy to talk to for getting on board when it makes sense for you. We're all on the same page at this level, Paul. If BCM wants to do M-LOK, that would be great, and we welcome that. If your demand is that high for your KeyMod products, I think you'd be surprised at where it goes if you also offered M-LOK.
Another VS thread. I apologize in advance but I don’t read these anymore.
And I did not ready this whole thread and just skimmed the posts on page 8.
J’s and C’s is a wild reach. I would love to see your results on an ink blot test, lol. If I was really that creative they would be B’s. Bravo! As stated in the post above, all of that is inaccurate. They are randomized semi circles burned into the mold by a laser to create a grippy but not too rough texture. Any analysis past that should be reserved for the 911 truther conspiracy crowd, lol.
Thanks for commenting Paul.
I will shed some light on the JC issue. Back in 2005ish I was researching ways of getting a "grippier" texture on the upcoming MIAD grip. Traditional acid etching techniques provided a rough looking surface but this still felt relativity sooth in the hand compared to skateboard tape. Around this time a new process became available allowing a fine pattern to be CNC lasered into the surface of the mold providing a much sharper "ridge" than the rounded acid finish.
At the time just two companies offered this service in the US. No stock patterns were available to choose from so we had to come up with our own design. To help the design process along the company doing the work sent along some examples of previous items using the laser process. One of these examples was the Tango Down (TD) grip panel along with a drawing of how their pattern was to be laid on the part (great minds think alike).
In talking with them I was told that the TD pattern was a series of overlapping Js and Cs which happened to be the owners initials. In the drawing the lines were very clearly Js and Cs and I knew these were Jeff's initials so the story held water. I actually thought this "personalization" was a nice attention to detail so for the MIAD texture I used a spun and repeated Magpul logo in much the same way.
Fast forward a decade or so later, we started noticing what looked like the same TD texture pattern on other companies products such as BCM and US Palm.
Based on this naturally we thought TD was the subcontractor for both BCM and US Palm (as both have activities based in AZ along with TD)
If this not the case, you can now see how we came to this conclusion, although we haven't given it much thought other than what we have laid out here.
For reference -
Tango Down (interlocking JC texture)-
38920
BCM texture-
38922
Magpul (MIAD -spun logo texture)- Note: Most of our products now use the more effective TSP -Trapezoidal Surface Projections- but the old texture lives on in the MIAD and 1911 grips.
38921
I'm sure there is a logical answer, but I sure see "J"s with straight segments in the BCM molded pattern. Looking closer, I may also see some "U"s and backwards "J"s. If it's just random truncated circles they are certainly odd ones.
Not that it matters. But I could sure see how people made the leap that it was the same pattern. No conspiracy theories needed. :-)
The way I see it is that we have two strong systems to chose from. The market will dictate whether both survive, and I'd not hazard a guess either way.
I was originally a KM fan, but really like to option to use the same accessories on polymer handguards. That's a huge win for me.
My personal read is also that M-Lock is more "Joe" friendly, if hobbiests with too much time on their hands can misinstall KM, then Joes will never get it right. But that's just my opinion knowing some. I'm sure there are also high speed Joes who love KM and use it daily.
Choosing between KM and ML is a good kind of problem to have!
Thanks for commenting Paul.
I will shed some light on the JC issue. Back in 2005ish I was researching ways of getting a "grippier" texture on the upcoming MIAD grip. Traditional acid etching techniques provided a rough looking surface but this still felt relativity sooth in the hand compared to skateboard tape. Around this time a new process became available allowing a fine pattern to be CNC lasered into the surface of the mold providing a much sharper "ridge" than the rounded acid finish.
At the time just two companies offered this service in the US. No stock patterns were available to choose from so we had to come up with our own design. To help the design process along the company doing the work sent along some examples of previous items using the laser process. One of these examples was the Tango Down (TD) grip panel along with a drawing of how their pattern was to be laid on the part (great minds think alike).
In talking with them I was told that the TD pattern was a series of overlapping Js and Cs which happened to be the owners initials. In the drawing the lines were very clearly Js and Cs and I knew these were Jeff's initials so the story held water. I actually thought this "personalization" was a nice attention to detail so for the MIAD texture I used a spun and repeated Magpul logo in much the same way.
Fast forward a decade or so later, we started noticing what looked like the same TD texture pattern on other companies products such as BCM and US Palm.
Based on this naturally we thought TD was the subcontractor for both BCM and US Palm (as both have activities based in AZ along with TD)
If this not the case, you can now see how we came to this conclusion, although we haven't given it much thought other than what we have laid out here.
For reference -
Tango Down (interlocking JC texture)-
38920
BCM texture-
38922
Magpul (MIAD -spun logo texture)- Note: Most of our products now use the more effective TSP -Trapezoidal Surface Projections- but the old texture lives on in the MIAD and 1911 grips.
38921
The BCM sure does look inspired by TD, if not directly copied, albeit maybe a bit incorrectly, as though by someone who didn't know they were J and C's? I dunno, I wasn't there, but damn that's similar!
That said...sure would be nice if BCM made an MLOK KMR. That would solve the issues with that rail, IMO
That said...sure would be nice if BCM made an MLOK KMR. That would solve the issues with that rail, IMO
I understand the sunk cost aspect, commitment to the Keymod standard, etc. All makes sense.
But I'll never buy a keymod KMR, sorry. And would immediately buy multiple M-Lock KMR's if they were available. Don't know the opportunity cost for sticking to current offering. If no way to expand production, then the current answer makes sense.
Would it really be that different to setup CNC to do Mlock rather than KM cuts? Yes, I know, testing, R&D, etc. But my bet is the tooling and process would not be that different, and potentially the base rail (pre machining) could be the same (Just uninformed conjecture on my part).
My suspicion is the thinking is that an M-Lock KMR would cannibalize sales. My read is they would see incremental sales.
JackFanToM
04-14-16, 23:00
I understand the sunk cost aspect, commitment to the Keymod standard, etc. All makes sense.
But I'll never buy a keymod KMR, sorry. And would immediately buy multiple M-Lock KMR's if they were available. Don't know the opportunity cost for sticking to current offering. If no way to expand production, then the current answer makes sense.
Would it really be that different to setup CNC to do Mlock rather than KM cuts? Yes, I know, testing, R&D, etc. But my bet is the tooling and process would not be that different, and potentially the base rail (pre machining) could be the same (Just uninformed conjecture on my part).
My suspicion is the thinking is that an M-Lock KMR would cannibalize sales. My read is they would see incremental sales.
I understand that you are committed to an attachment system, but the attachment system is a very small part of what makes the KMR a great rail. Besides it wouldn't be a KMR without the KM...it would be a MLR or some such. I imagine if the 2 attachment systems stand the test of time (I personally think something else will be along before another 5 years passes), then you will see BCM produce MLOK rails.
I can't imagine that BCM will begin producing MLOK until they can keep up with KMR and KMR Alpha demand. They are regularly sold out everywhere you look in certain sizes and types, so it makes absolutely no sense to retool and split your production in half to produce 2 items when you are struggling to keep up with demand of one. Patience, or simply buy an mlok rail from a manufacturer that makes one already, but you won't have all the other features that make the KMR great.
Yes, if you take a look at the textures on all of the BCM/Tango Down/US Palm and other associated products, it is made of a bunch of J's and C's, which stands for Jeff Cahill, and that's where all of these molded things come from for all of these companies.
Now, on the other side of this, Grant alluding that we have someone done any behind the scenes coercing of anyone about producing or not producing M-LOK or producing or not producing KeyMod--that's absolutely ludicrous. However...if you ask around the industry, you may find a whole bunch of folks that have received phone calls from the KeyMod camp trying to convince them not to make M-LOK, including spreading BS rumors, etc.
The reason you don't see more molded M-LOK furniture is probably just that molds are really doggone expensive. The reality is that we openly accept absolutely anyone as an M-LOK manufacturer of any accessory, and anything less would just be silly. We don't do stuff like that. We didn't care if anyone made MOE slots from the old system, either. Plenty of folks made machined accessories, and plenty of machined rail slots could be used with MOE accessories, but no one bothered to make molded furniture with that, either. Another possibility is that other molders may erroneously think that using M-LOK would promote us and be detrimental to their brand. We don't make any more or less from M-LOK than anyone else who makes products for it, in fact, we spend a lot on the engineering time to evaluate compliance and keep the TDP relevant, plus do the administrative stuff regarding the free licenses, so we probably make less per product, all else equal.
As for Grant, it's his site, and I like Grant. But, Grant is also extremely close with BCM and Paul, so whether intentionally, or just through less trust of us than BCM due to his relationships, you can probably see where this whole nonsense notion came from.
Any idea who made those phone calls?
Badness, I know exactly who, but I probably shouldn't have even mentioned it, as getting into a he said/she said on the Internet over what was or wasn't said in a bunch of second hand phone conversations isn't fruitful, so letting it lay would have probably been smarter.
Thanks for commenting Paul.
I will shed some light on the JC issue. Back in 2005ish I was researching ways of getting a "grippier" texture on the upcoming MIAD grip. Traditional acid etching techniques provided a rough looking surface but this still felt relativity sooth in the hand compared to skateboard tape. Around this time a new process became available allowing a fine pattern to be CNC lasered into the surface of the mold providing a much sharper "ridge" than the rounded acid finish.
At the time just two companies offered this service in the US. No stock patterns were available to choose from so we had to come up with our own design. To help the design process along the company doing the work sent along some examples of previous items using the laser process. One of these examples was the Tango Down (TD) grip panel along with a drawing of how their pattern was to be laid on the part (great minds think alike).
In talking with them I was told that the TD pattern was a series of overlapping Js and Cs which happened to be the owners initials. In the drawing the lines were very clearly Js and Cs and I knew these were Jeff's initials so the story held water. I actually thought this "personalization" was a nice attention to detail so for the MIAD texture I used a spun and repeated Magpul logo in much the same way.
Fast forward a decade or so later, we started noticing what looked like the same TD texture pattern on other companies products such as BCM and US Palm.
Based on this naturally we thought TD was the subcontractor for both BCM and US Palm (as both have activities based in AZ along with TD)
If this not the case, you can now see how we came to this conclusion, although we haven't given it much thought other than what we have laid out here.
For reference -
Tango Down (interlocking JC texture)-
38920
BCM texture-
38922
Magpul (MIAD -spun logo texture)- Note: Most of our products now use the more effective TSP -Trapezoidal Surface Projections- but the old texture lives on in the MIAD and 1911 grips.
38921
Dude, if you really think those are Js and Cs, you may want to look a little closer...
titsonritz
04-15-16, 14:57
The texture on the Tango Down grip I had was completely different than the one above, it is my favorite pattern, I wish it was on my UC/B5 and Gunfighter grips.
I understand that you are committed to an attachment system, but the attachment system is a very small part of what makes the KMR a great rail. Besides it wouldn't be a KMR without the KM...it would be a MLR or some such.
Yep, I get it. Really like the attachment system, and will concede it's one of the best, if not *the* best currently available.
While I know the products are not comparable, or even the same market, many have found the ALG EMR to be a pretty good compromise, and especially compared to KMR-A. But I also know people's passion for particular rail flavors usually exceeds all other things, so there will some who disagree with my positioning of the EMR.
But I'd prefer a BCM MLR!
Dude, if you really think those are Js and Cs, you may want to look a little closer...
Please read my post. That is what the guys who lazered the original texture told me first hand.
In addition to this the original drawing used to specify the pattern over the rough texture also clearly show Js and Cs overlapping.
Not that it matters in the big scheme of things but I thought my original post was pretty clear on the subject.
Dude, if you really think those are Js and Cs, you may want to look a little closer...
An introspection on tone towards an IP should be considered at this juncture.
At least four principals of the industry, essentially having a multi-response, open air argument, with more decorum in all of their posts than you've displayed in this single post here. Going forward, it might be best to let the adults talk, if this is the best you can muster towards these gentlemen.
Thanks.
In advance i apologize for any incorrect grammar
I own pic, keymod and mlok rails. Like most here I have a Magpul parts pile and BCM uppers-lowers and parts laying all over the bench like lego parts have some clone rifles, fun rifles and ones we say are our serious use rifle.
As a joe blow civi consumer I have to say in our corner of the firearms world its exciting to see two leading brands with there capabilities being at the forefront of either system.
But I must say I am disappointed in the lack of polymer accessories available for mlok and often wonder what the deal is, and Im disappointed in the lack of mlok parts availability on BCM's website, not just with there own flavor. But lack of any Mlok accessories to purchase from any brand as of todays date. Ive also noticed that current stock of Magpul products have been cutback as compared to a few years ago on BCM's site. If i am mistaken than i apologize as i do not mean to make statements or claims that are incorrect.
As much as industry folks know the power of posting info and keeping things worded carefully and in line on all aspects of social media. There is other things in the industry that I'm sure guys other than me notice, Comments here, comments there from certain industry folks every now and then on here and different sites over the years lead people to be curious and come to conclusions. Theres nothing in particular, just stuff you tend to pick up on that some guys i think wish they left alone and less was more after posting.
So at the end of there day for guys like me who spend time on the forums and like to keep up with the day to day community stuff and talk, its hard not to imagine both brands having there own agendas and watching them play there hand for one system over another. In the end it benefits us and competition is a good thing.
But i won't be holding my breathe for either to provide the other with a means to make a sale over there own business investments and plans, I think the innovation coming is going to be great and this is just the start of interesting products to come our way.
We think they are J's and C's because the folks who did the original texture for TD confirmed that they were indeed J's and C's. Hey, maybe this is completely coincidence and the BCM texture just happens to look a lot like the original TD texture by sheer chance, but J's C's or random semi-circular shapes, the history is what the history is, and you can probably see where the similarities would lead one to believe there was an association. Nothing wrong with it either way--the CNC laser and acid etch combo makes for a fairly effective texture regardless of where the map came from.
Starting to sound more like 6s and 7s to me.
[emoji6]
Since we have some industry partners participating in this discussion (which, by the way, is outstanding PR), I'll take advantage of the opportunity to give the opinion of a "noob."
My first build was with an on-sale blemished PSA lower that I took apart and put back together. When I looked for an upper, I know I didn't want to have to mess with things that I wasn't confident torquing, etc. So, I got a BCM upper and slapped a B5 keymod handguard on it. While I loved the look and feel (no homo), I had to do a ton of trimming to get it to fit. So, I transitioned over to a drop in MI handguard...and decided to go with M-Lok, for several reasons. One reason was that there is a Cabela's 2.1 miles from my house, and I can walk in and buy quality M-Lok parts whenever I want. And, I am far from alone with that attitude.
Now, since I found I really liked the system (and have bought several pieces for it), I really only consider M-Lok hand guards for my current build. So, while I handle the BCM rifles at my LGS, and they feel incredibly balanced and light, I do not want to double the attachment systems I have on hand by buying non-interchangeable parts for both.
So, in conclusion:
1. Magpul, I didn't buy your SL handguard solely because it wouldn't fit around the end cap on my BCM upper. Otherwise, I really wanted it; by far, my first inexpensive choice after handling one.
2. BCM, as I begin a 'recce' style build, I dismiss all your built keymod uppers and look only at those without a handguard attached... Because I want an interchangeable system between my carbines/rifles. This means extra work for me, as I expect to have to Dremel off the front sight. For my last build, I also wanted BCM's shorty fore grip, but wished consistency and went with a Magpul AFG.
In summary, this isn't meant to complain or criticize. I thought you might value a perspective. Both companies lost slight profit due to limiting options, but I still use other products from both companies. If BCM offered a KMR-style handguard using the M-Lok system, I'd be on the waiting list.
I can uselessly chime in here.
I have 1913 rails on two rifles and am satisfied with both. I also have an MLOK rail on another rifle, and absolutely love it.
Very soon I'll be ordering my first KeyMod rail and I'm very excited for that as well.
I see no reason to stick with only one system for the civilian sector, as each system has advantages and disadvantages. Variety is nice.
My worry is that the field of mounting options might get complicated when the military picks a system... Knowing how that works, it'll likely be something unique and complicated, like "HK-DOCK", therefore being completely proprietary and unsupported. Accessories will be basically non existent, expensive, lacking in ergonomics, and all this R&D for these civilian platforms will have been for naught.
WatchTheWorldBern
04-16-16, 11:46
My worry is that the field of mounting options might get complicated when the military picks a system... Knowing how that works, it'll likely be something unique and complicated, like "HK-DOCK", therefore being completely proprietary and unsupported. Accessories will be basically non existent, expensive, lacking in ergonomics, and all this R&D for these civilian platforms will have been for naught.
You realize that the pic rails we're all used to were developed and standardized by the military, right?
You realize that the pic rails we're all used to were developed and standardized by the military, right?
Yeah, obviously, before modularity was a civilian market focus.
The military is responsible for much innovation, but also the victim of many bad decisions and developmental stagnation.
If nothing else, this thread shows there is not only current demand for each config, but also future sales for both. Especially considering that one can buy adapter/conversion pieces to go with each. (From one to the other).
Both are made by world class manufacturers, so it really will come down to preference. It's Ford v. Mopar if you will. One may well a outsell the other, but neither is going anywhere anytime soon.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah, obviously, before modularity was a civilian market focus.
The military is responsible for much innovation, but also the victim of many bad decisions and developmental stagnation.
DoD may not ever have a requirement for a modular system and if they do it might be quite some time before it appears. In the current budget environment everyone is having to prioritize. As nice as the reduced weight of the modular systems are, I doubt it would be at the top of the priority list because despite the lighter weight they don't do anything quad rails don't do.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
You realize that the pic rails we're all used to were developed and standardized by the military, right?
I would not say "developed" as the system was derived primarily from the civilian Weaver Mount (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weaver_rail_mount)
The military did add some much needed standardization along with some key expansion to the design though.
titsonritz
04-16-16, 18:13
I would not say "developed" as the system was derived primarily from the civilian Weaver Mount (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weaver_rail_mount)
The military did add some much needed standardization along with some key expansion to the design though.
Yep. Development of the rail, based on the Weaver, goes back to work by A.R.M.S./Dick Swann, the Picatinny Arsenal did the testing & evaluation on it and created a military standard for it.
WatchTheWorldBern
04-16-16, 18:41
I would not say "developed" as the system was derived primarily from the civilian Weaver Mount (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weaver_rail_mount)
The military did add some much needed standardization along with some key expansion to the design though.
Yeah, I figured someone would call me on that. Obviously, you're right. What small disagreement I have with that comes down to wanting to emphasize that a lot of designs have predecessors from which they were refined, and in this case, there's a reasonably large difference between a weaver scope mount and a quad rail. That may seem pedantic, but the point I wanted to make was just that the military is an enormous semi corporate bureaucracy that does a fair bit of research and development, and the kneejerk tendency to just dismiss it as Dumb Big Government when it comes to procurement, development, and standardization is often pretty off base in my opinion.
In the current environment of budget cuts and drawdown, no one's rushing to update relatively unimportant quad rails that essentially just boil down to some weight savings. The last 15 years introduced a ton of demand and necessity (and money) into the small arms product development world, but that's wound down now. Who knows, maybe we'll see mlok or whatever adopted in smaller ways or worked into block 3 or something (Colt Canada was definitely a surprise). I haven't heard anything to indicate that's the case, but there are a lot of people a lot more keyed into that world and those decisions than I am. My only real points here were that the military does r&d that blurs the private/gov line and that if the timing were different, we'd probably be seeing more agile development and adoption of newer stuff.
SomeOtherGuy
04-16-16, 18:47
If nothing else, this thread shows there is not only current demand for each config, but also future sales for both. Especially considering that one can buy adapter/conversion pieces to go with each. (From one to the other).
Anyone who can make attachments that work securely on both designs will be very well positioned. Strike Industries offers a system that's supposed to work on both, but I don't know how proven it is.
Ten years from now one or the other system will be obsolete and rare. But I won't claim to know which one, and it's entirely possible that a third or fourth system may replace both of them.
lengthofpull
04-16-16, 19:00
My 0.02 as Joe Civilian:
I have a KMR'd BCM upper that I really enjoy as my favorite all around rifle. That being said, Magpul's platform diversity gives M-Lok an advantage over Keymod. I have magpul's fore-end on my Rem 870 with M-lok, my gal's 10/22 has an X-22 on the way... its nice to be able to share parts across different guns. For this reason, my BCM upper will be my only keymod item (and I'd buy an M-Lok KMR in a heartbeat).
I own several items from both magpul and BCM. I really appreciate the public discussion by all parties involved.
-LOP
I have a KMR on a light weight precision gun, Magpul SL hand guards on a 6920 & 6720 and guns with Troy Alpha rails that use pic rails where I need them. They each fit their intended uses and I buy whatever I need for each gun.
Most of my stuff now is pic attached anyway, other than sights and a light, I don't need anything else. (I have Proctor slings on my guns, no hardware needed).
It's good to have choices and I hope all 3 systems flourish.
I think that one day keymod will disappear.
JackFanToM
04-22-16, 22:32
I think that one day keymod will disappear.
...and one day the sun will stop shining. I guess I missed the point of that statement, as "one day" is pretty vague and a fairly safe prediction.
I have a dream, that one day all companies will stake their carrier keys, they will finally learn to make a true 5.56 chamber and the good Lord willing will stop making trashy parts.
I think that one day keymod will disappear.
I have a dream, that one day all companies will stake their carrier keys, they will finally learn to make a true 5.56 chamber and the good Lord willing will stop making trashy parts.
I'm going to go ahead and sig this.
I think that one day keymod will disappear.
I doubt it. Why? Because we still see people buying, using and asking for picatinny quad rails. You also have to remember that the majority of people pay WAAAAAY more attention to the quality of the rail than the attachment system.
C4
JackFanToM
04-23-16, 07:28
I still don't get why people want one of the major rail attachment systems to disappear. Do they not understand how competition is good for the consumer and for innovation?
Think PCs for a second, there is Intel vs amd, nvidia vs ati. This healthy competition keeps prices down and drives innovation.
This isn't about individual likes and dislikes, there are 7 billion people on this planet, and we are all individuals.
VHS vs Beta. Beta disappeared.
VHS vs Beta. Beta disappeared.
Analogy does not work.
C4
Both systems work well or neither would have survived this long. I like my BCM KMR and my Geiselle m lock, the key is to buy top tier gear regardless whether you like Bernie or Hillary. The good stuff always runs. And a free float rail needs to be stout and free and the hangin chad is of little concern to me.
PB
titsonritz
04-23-16, 11:34
VHS vs Beta. Beta disappeared.
And VHS is booming. :rolleyes:
556BlackRifle
04-23-16, 11:52
And VHS is booming. :rolleyes:
LOL.. :lol:
You know....
Why is this an argument?
There are still oodles of quad rails out there and they will likely be made forever.
Good old honest 1913 rails. Still out there.
Keymod and M lok do similar things for different people.
M lok is more attractive to me for the "smoothness" or slickness of the handguard. But if I wanted to put a lot of stuff on my rifle I may go Keymod.
Or hell I could get a carbon fiber handguard.
It's more options for more people's personal tastes.
That's not a bad deal.
Honestly it kinda smacks of a pointless TOS debate.
It isn't VHS vs Beta nor is it Apple vs Android.
It's more like Adidas vs Nike. Whatever makes your feet feel better and everyone has different feet.
tigershilone
04-23-16, 13:55
I am still waiting for direct mount weapon lights to either system that don't require a mounting adapter or pic rail adapter.
Reality is that outside of grips or sling mounts you still need an adapter of some sort for accessories. Seems like every weapon mounted laser or light is pic rail adapter mounted. The best advantage of both systems (ability to directly bolt to the hand-guard with-out an adapter) has not been utilized yet by light and laser and other accessories manufactures as they still cling to picatinny only.
MountainRaven
04-23-16, 13:58
And VHS is booming. :rolleyes:
But you can still get vinyl!
titsonritz
04-23-16, 14:02
But you can still get vinyl!
Praise the lord.
I am still waiting for direct mount weapon lights to either system that don't require a mounting adapter or pic rail adapter.
Reality is that outside of grips or sling mounts you still need an adapter of some sort for accessories. Seems like every weapon mounted laser or light is pic rail adapter mounted. The best advantage of both systems (ability to directly bolt to the hand-guard with-out an adapter) has not been utilized yet by light and laser and other accessories manufactures as they still cling to picatinny only.
Plenty of KM & ML light mounts that don't use a rail adapter. Arisaka for example.
tigershilone
04-23-16, 18:06
Plenty of KM & ML light mounts that don't use a rail adapter. Arisaka for example.
Arisaka is still using a mount for their light, granted it is either a MLOK or Keymod mount eliminating the pic rail. What I was really bitching about is the lack of direct mount light options to either system. A system where the mount is built into the body like the Haley Strategic WML for picatinny.
jackblack73
04-23-16, 21:20
Arisaka is still using a mount for their light, granted it is either a MLOK or Keymod mount eliminating the pic rail. What I was really bitching about is the lack of direct mount light options to either system. A system where the mount is built into the body like the Haley Strategic WML for picatinny.
There are really not a ton of direct mount lights for picatinny either. I'm not sure I can think of more than 5.
Mrgunsngear
04-24-16, 07:06
The Elzetta Mini CQB is direct mount for both MLOK and KeyMod FWIW:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iqsr7cvM5P8
I think that one day keymod will disappear.
Unlikely. Even if Keymod sucked ass gravy (which it doesn't). CSASS has a Keymod rail. All Tapco ninjas will soon be putting Keymod anything on their SKS's.
For one you can't expect that companies with a vested interest in an attachment method will offer up accessories that swing people away from their money makers. BCM will not be making MLOK anything unless there is some serious $$ behind it say a gov contract or similar. They want to sell rails and uppers and such. Same goes for Magpul. Unlikely that you will see them telling folks to go buy other folk's furniture.
Competition is good for everyone. We bitch when we have choice and bitch when we don't.
VHS vs Beta. Beta disappeared.
Betamax was a vastly superior product, aside from the cost to mass produce and distribute it, which is why Beta went away, not because it failed or was a bad product. This is probably the worst example you could use.
Just because you aren't a fan of something, it doesn't mean that everyone else shares that same opinion. If you don't like it, don't buy it, as has been said continuously in this thread. I personally own both types of rails and accessories and like both, but they are used for different applications. If you buy quality and install the items correctly, you will not have the failures that are purported on the intardweb. A failure to follow simple instructions will always lead to failure in one-way, shape or form.
556BlackRifle
04-24-16, 13:01
Betamax was a vastly superior product, aside from the cost to mass produce and distribute it, which is why Beta went away, not because it failed or was a bad product. This is probably the worst example you could use.
Just because you aren't a fan of something, it doesn't mean that everyone else shares that same opinion. If you don't like it, don't buy it, as has been said continuously in this thread. I personally own both types of rails and accessories and like both, but they are used for different applications. If you buy quality and install the items correctly, you will not have the failures that are purported on the intardweb. A failure to follow simple instructions will always lead to failure in one-way, shape or form.
^^ Well said! ^^
CSASS has a Keymod rail.
Incorrect. The winner of the Compact Semi-Automatic Sniper System (CSASS) was the HK G28E1 which was submitted with a propriety rail system (not M-LOK or keymod). The rifle system itself was selected but most everything else, including the mounting system, is subject to change.
Betamax was a vastly superior product, aside from the cost to mass produce and distribute it, which is why Beta went away, not because it failed or was a bad product. This is probably the worst example you could use.
And even then, beta lives on to this day in the professional world via digicam and it's successors. Digicam was a derivative of the Betamax format that worked extremely well in the pro video world.
Very rarely do things disappear entirely when there's a market for them.
Please knock off the bullshit comparisons of Beta v. VHS, Yugo vs. Fiat, etc... and focus on the subject at hand.
Please knock off the bullshit comparisons of Beta v. VHS, Yugo vs. Fiat, etc... and focus on the subject at hand.
I say the BS actually proves what little substance there is to the subject of MLOK vs KMOD....they both seem to work quite well when manufactured properly, and when applied properly. The biggest difference I hear is a preference over aesthetics. I tell customers to focus more on buying a product from a quality manufacturer than on which system, that will make a much bigger difference in your experience long term.
I say the BS actually proves what little substance there is to the subject of MLOK vs KMOD....they both seem to work quite well when manufactured properly, and when applied properly. The biggest difference I hear is a preference over aesthetics. I tell customers to focus more on buying a product from a quality manufacturer than on which system, that will make a much bigger difference in your experience long term.
Until companies refuse to build products for one system, forcing the other on you, should you still desire that company's product, which is what this thread is about. It's not a BS argument if they're not equal. So far, they're far from equal.
Until companies refuse to build products for one system, forcing the other on you, should you still desire that company's product, which is what this thread is about. It's not a BS argument if they're not equal. So far, they're far from equal.
I don't think you properly read my post.
I chose keymod because it looks better... Lol
This is getting beyond the point of usefulness. I entertain the thought of a M4C quality thread on MLok or Keymod. Until then, this one is done.
Thanks all.
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