View Full Version : If $15/hr min wage is widespread, will tipping wait staff at restaurants vanish?
Currently wait staff is tipped under the auspices of being paid a low hourly wage. If wait staff made a minimum of $15/hr, will we see tipping vanish? I really dislike our pseudo-mandatory tipping culture in the service industry. It seems that if high minimum wages are passed, prices on food/goods/services will increase and we will see tipping vanish.
When I go places in Seattle I know pay $15/hour I refuse to tip.
I tip for good service in a service industry because they are poorly paid and the tips are part of their income. You get $15 an hour and I stop.
Yes. I know I'll stop.
Because prices will go up.
I dare say I'll eat in far more often if not exclusively.
We could easily set the minimum wage to 100 dollars an hour.
Then people can use money for asswipes and kindling like they did in Germany after WWI.
If you're a low information voter AKA a retard, then the concept of inflation is lost upon you.
Why stop? I tip for good service period.
I don't care how much they make.
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Why stop? I tip for good service period.
I don't care how much they make.
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Will you still tip 15 to 20%?
Will you still tip 15 to 20%?
The quality of service doesn't change between a $10 steak and a $30 steak, so why would the tip? Granted that is 'the way things are done,' but it has never struck me as logical.
Open a $5 bottle of wine or a $300 bottle, what's the difference? Percentage based tipping is BS, period.
I've been to plenty of foreign countries, had far better service, and there is absolutely no expectation of any tip.
Will you still tip 15 to 20%?
Don't know as I have never used the percentage to figure tip.
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Eurodriver
04-10-16, 18:55
A little off topic but all of the restaurants here have begun asking for a tip before you send your card in.
I don't like being put on the spot like that, so I always tell them I tip in cash and leave it zero. It seems like a good way to get people to tip higher.
On topic - I thought waiters get paid below minimum wage because they get tips? Does $15/hr apply to everyone even waiters? I think here they get paid like $3.50/hr or something.
I would love to see an end to tipping. It's BS. The onus should be on the employer to ensure their employees provide "good service", just like every other occupation.
If I receive bad service, I'll take my business elsewhere. If I provide bad service, I get fired.
Servers aren't paid minimum wage now. So if the minimum is set to $15, what difference would that make?
I will admit, I am a lousy tipper. I will generously tip $5 up to $25 and you get $10 for everything higher. I went to Vegas for New Years and we ate at Wolfgang Puck, our bill was $912, I tipped $50 which I thought was good for refilling our water and taking our order. I was approached by the general manager with the waiter standing to his side who had the audacity to tell me that the waiters only makes $3.50/hr and I should have tipped appropriately ($150-$200). I looked at him and said, "Me and my girlfriend each had water, a salad, pasta with 1 side and we split a desert and you charged me $912 and you only gave him (waiter) $3.50? And your calling me out?".
Places like Starbucks, and restaurants like Chili's, On The Border, Applebee's, Macaroni Grill, Outback etc. don't want to pay there employees anymore than $2-3 dollars an hour and they EXPECT you, the customer to come up with the difference. Now, that difference is not good enough anymore, now these waiters and coffee makers want $15 minimum and hour and are still going to expect you to tip 20%.
Servers aren't paid minimum wage now. So if the minimum is set to $15, what difference would that make?
I think you're unintentionally opening a huge can of worms with that question.
Servers aren't paid minimum wage now. So if the minimum is set to $15, what difference would that make?
No, San Francisco and other cities made a law saying that EVERYONE would be paid a minimum of $15, even servers.
Eurodriver
04-10-16, 19:18
No, San Francisco and other cities made a law saying that EVERYONE would be paid a minimum of $15, even servers.
In that case I would no longer tip unless I was at a really upscale restaurant.
Partly to prove a point, and partly because the entire point of tipping is to make up for shit pay to begin with.
No tipping because nobody will be eating out much. In order to make $15/HR min wage work is to include a federal price fixing law which won't fly.
Take your average burger. How many people who make minimum wage touch it at the raw material stage? How many middle men (distributors) touch it using min wage employees? All those folks aren't going to take a hit on their profits, but will simply push the cost up stream towards the end users. Either we will cut out a lot of middlemen and loose a lot of jobs or the price will have to go up and nobody will want a $15 burger from McDonalds and we will loose more jobs. See the common theme??
Moving to customer input data screens and less employees. Kinda like bagging your own groceries. Who gets the profit for not paying an employee and having you, the customer, do their work for them. Dummies.
NOBODY is interested in a $16 value meal. Plain and simple!
There are quite a few Carl's Jr's, Burger King's, Wendy's, McDonalds, Whataburger and KFC I see in and around Dallas that have a order kiosk which takes your order and money and its easy to use. That is the future! Its cheaper than people!
Dist. Expert 26
04-10-16, 19:37
I will admit, I am a lousy tipper. I will generously tip $5 up to $25 and you get $10 for everything higher. I went to Vegas for New Years and we ate at Wolfgang Puck, our bill was $912, I tipped $50 which I thought was good for refilling our water and taking our order. I was approached by the general manager with the waiter standing to his side who had the audacity to tell me that the waiters only makes $3.50/hr and I should have tipped appropriately ($150-$200). I looked at him and said, "Me and my girlfriend each had water, a salad, pasta with 1 side and we split a desert and you charged me $912 and you only gave him (waiter) $3.50? And your calling me out?".
Places like Starbucks, and restaurants like Chili's, On The Border, Applebee's, Macaroni Grill, Outback etc. don't want to pay there employees anymore than $2-3 dollars an hour and they EXPECT you, the customer to come up with the difference. Now, that difference is not good enough anymore, now these waiters and coffee makers want $15 minimum and hour and are still going to expect you to tip 20%.
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but how in the hell does that meal add up to almost a grand?
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but how in the hell does that meal add up to almost a grand?
I don't see it. I lived in Vegas for a decade, and dined at most of the fancy pants joints, and wouldn't expect that to be much over $100 anywhere.
I will admit, I am a lousy tipper. I will generously tip $5 up to $25 and you get $10 for everything higher. I went to Vegas for New Years and we ate at Wolfgang Puck, our bill was $912, I tipped $50 which I thought was good for refilling our water and taking our order. I was approached by the general manager with the waiter standing to his side who had the audacity to tell me that the waiters only makes $3.50/hr and I should have tipped appropriately ($150-$200). I looked at him and said, "Me and my girlfriend each had water, a salad, pasta with 1 side and we split a desert and you charged me $912 and you only gave him (waiter) $3.50? And your calling me out?".
Places like Starbucks, and restaurants like Chili's, On The Border, Applebee's, Macaroni Grill, Outback etc. don't want to pay there employees anymore than $2-3 dollars an hour and they EXPECT you, the customer to come up with the difference. Now, that difference is not good enough anymore, now these waiters and coffee makers want $15 minimum and hour and are still going to expect you to tip 20%.
You must have had a lot of wine and/or cocktails.
Wolfgang Puck on New Years Eve! Ok so I had a bottle of wine big deal! Your missing the point!!
Currently wait staff is tipped under the auspices of being paid a low hourly wage. If wait staff made a minimum of $15/hr, will we see tipping vanish? I really dislike our pseudo-mandatory tipping culture in the service industry. It seems that if high minimum wages are passed, prices on food/goods/services will increase and we will see tipping vanish.
Tipped employees make half minimum wage.
Edit, just saw they are pushing 15 for tipped also. Thats bs.
As someone who waited tables for 7 years, I loved it. You get paid on performance, which is a little rare these days. I worked at a low end restaurant and made enough to get through college and then some by busting ass. Setting a fixed rate will increase meal prices and lower service quality because most people suck and have no work ethic.
A lot of people I work with give bad service and complain about tips, haha. Imagine if they got a fixed rate.
As for the op, yes kiosks will replace servers except for certain restaurants.
This 15 dollar deal is going to change a lot of things.
Get ready for 180-200 hotels and 15-20 dollar fast food.
This is just going to speed up the integration of automation.
Primus Pilum
04-10-16, 21:25
Good, It will be the same as Europe.
You don't tip there because servers make full wages/benefits. They can live off of their wages alone and if they do a really nice job, leave them a euro or 2.
No longer can they not declare half their wages and get out of paying taxes like those of us that work a normal job. Prices will go up a bit but when you take out the tips, it will not be much difference.
This will end up making the cook staff make more money and the servers make less. They will make the same.
This + forcing them to bring a CC machine to the table and run it in front of you need to be standards here. Billions a year are stolen from servers who sell your CC info. They should never touch your card or be able to read the numbers on it.
a brief history on tipping in the USA:
http://www.businessinsider.com/history-of-tipping-2015-10
Averageman
04-10-16, 21:42
I usually tip in cash and let the waiter figure it out at their own discretion.
If your working three to five tables and the average customer takes an hour to eat and tips you fifteen bucks. What are you making in a six hour shift? I don't see how even after tipping out your bar tender you can't walk out the door with three hundred dollars in your pocket on a decent night.
You're not making a killing, but that's a decent enough job to put yourself through school with.
Now if you want to work in a dump, your not going to make that kind of money; simply because people don't take that kind of food seriously.
Good, It will be the same as Europe.
You don't tip there because servers make full wages/benefits. They can live off of their wages alone and if they do a really nice job, leave them a euro or 2.
No longer can they not declare half their wages and get out of paying taxes like those of us that work a normal job. Prices will go up a bit but when you take out the tips, it will not be much difference.
This will end up making the cook staff make more money and the servers make less. They will make the same.
This + forcing them to bring a CC machine to the table and run it in front of you need to be standards here. Billions a year are stolen from servers who sell your CC info. They should never touch your card or be able to read the numbers on it.
Agreed, the US is only half implementing the new to us Chip & PIN technology due to worries around customer acceptance. EMV chip technology requires the full amount be entered up front, hence you getting asked for your tip amount. Any business that uses old fashioned swipe takes responsibility for any fraud from now on. In restaurants around the world this is handled with the aforementioned portable terminals.
I don't really like how the tip/pay process works here, but I also don't like screwing over workers caught in the middle. I generally tip well and don't go out if I don't want to pay full price.
Dennis.
No tipping because nobody will be eating out much. In order to make $15/HR min wage work is to include a federal price fixing law which won't fly.
Take your average burger. How many people who make minimum wage touch it at the raw material stage? How many middle men (distributors) touch it using min wage employees? All those folks aren't going to take a hit on their profits, but will simply push the cost up stream towards the end users. Either we will cut out a lot of middlemen and loose a lot of jobs or the price will have to go up and nobody will want a $15 burger from McDonalds and we will loose more jobs. See the common theme??
McDonald's reported 1.9 billion in profits the quarter ending in October 2015. They'll get by - I just hope my fund manager hasn't invested in Mickey D's stock.
The 15.00 wages in all the places that I know of is phased in, not all at once.
Ever stop to think that those business guys that don't want to pay a decent wage are the ones that put those folks in section 8 housing and on medicaid? Yep, that might be one way to look at it - those grownups (it's not high school kids anymore working at McDonald's) working for less than 10.00 an hour at McDonald's are sucking up our tax money so McDonalds can make almost 2 billion a quarter in profit.
So in essence, you and I are subsidizing McDonald's by paying taxes so their workers can live in section 8 housing. Why? Because McDonald's won't pay them a living wage.
Who the freak wants to work at McDonalds? It is the job you take when you can't get another job. I don't know about you, but the newspaper in my town does not even have a half page of help wanted ads, the only folks that are hiring are nursing homes, fast food joints, and WalMart.
Hopefully, if the minimum wage floats up a bit there will be fewer folks on medicaid and subsidized housing.
And no, I'm not a fvcking Socialist, I just don't embrace the 'hey buddy, fvck you, I've got mine' attitude.
wildcard600
04-10-16, 23:40
McDonald's reported 1.9 billion in profits the quarter ending in October 2015. They'll get by - I just hope my fund manager hasn't invested in Mickey D's stock.
The 15.00 wages in all the places that I know of is phased in, not all at once.
Ever stop to think that those business guys that don't want to pay a decent wage are the ones that put those folks in section 8 housing and on medicaid? Yep, that might be one way to look at it - those grownups (it's not high school kids anymore working at McDonald's) working for less than 10.00 an hour at McDonald's are sucking up our tax money so McDonalds can make almost 2 billion a quarter in profit.
So in essence, you and I are subsidizing McDonald's by paying taxes so their workers can live in section 8 housing. Why? Because McDonald's won't pay them a living wage.
Who the freak wants to work at McDonalds? It is the job you take when you can't get another job. I don't know about you, but the newspaper in my town does not even have a half page of help wanted ads, the only folks that are hiring are nursing homes, fast food joints, and WalMart.
Hopefully, if the minimum wage floats up a bit there will be fewer folks on medicaid and subsidized housing.
And no, I'm not a fvcking Socialist, I just don't embrace the 'hey buddy, fvck you, I've got mine' attitude.
Unfortunately, that seems to be the common mindset among "conservatives".
McDonald's reported 1.9 billion in profits the quarter ending in October 2015. They'll get by - I just hope my fund manager hasn't invested in Mickey D's stock.
The 15.00 wages in all the places that I know of is phased in, not all at once.
Ever stop to think that those business guys that don't want to pay a decent wage are the ones that put those folks in section 8 housing and on medicaid? Yep, that might be one way to look at it - those grownups (it's not high school kids anymore working at McDonald's) working for less than 10.00 an hour at McDonald's are sucking up our tax money so McDonalds can make almost 2 billion a quarter in profit.
So in essence, you and I are subsidizing McDonald's by paying taxes so their workers can live in section 8 housing. Why? Because McDonald's won't pay them a living wage.
Who the freak wants to work at McDonalds? It is the job you take when you can't get another job. I don't know about you, but the newspaper in my town does not even have a half page of help wanted ads, the only folks that are hiring are nursing homes, fast food joints, and WalMart.
Hopefully, if the minimum wage floats up a bit there will be fewer folks on medicaid and subsidized housing.
And no, I'm not a fvcking Socialist, I just don't embrace the 'hey buddy, fvck you, I've got mine' attitude.
Your solution for the ailments of bad economic policy is more bad economic policy? Price controls l do nothing good.
^ well, lets start at $10/hour first and put a term limit on those living off the government.
Primus Pilum
04-11-16, 01:29
Your solution for the ailments of bad economic policy is more bad economic policy? Price controls l do nothing good.
No he is just identifying how the game is rigged. Those with money write the laws that make it so they pay little/no taxes while the working man can't. McDonalds probably had a few billion in "write offs" before they got to that profit number. No different then GE having a $5 Billion dollar loss on the books each year, yet everyone is getting rich and raking in money hand over fist.
They need to pay their fair share because if they don't WE do. Our taxes pay for programs to supplement the income because they don't pay enough. I get their job is to make money, but the government's job is not to subsidize big business and push the costs and obligations onto the working man so shareholders can get bigger dividends.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-11-16, 01:37
You cheap bastards, why not $30/hr so these people can actually live.....
:sarcastic:
This 15 dollar deal is going to change a lot of things.
Get ready for 180-200 hotels and 15-20 dollar fast food.
This is just going to speed up the integration of automation.
Hotels will go up by Marriott and Hilton are already doing the self check in and your phone will end up being your key.
The "Save the planet by re-using your towel" is about less service help and infrastructure- and we are paying for it in an epidemic of bed bugs. That isn't hard to figure out.
The conservative line isn't "I've got mine, screw you", It's "I worked hard for mine, while you screwed around." I took Latin, Organic Chemistry and a bunch of AP classes in high-school. My wife and I have 21 years of higher education between us, less sleep than we'd like and only two kids because that because that's what we could support.
You can't raise a family on minimum wage- Uhmm, yes. That isn't a social problem, that is a math problem. We want to hand out the financial equivalent of participation trophies while at the same time denigrating the people who actually make a difference. All while complaining about income inequality while we import more poor people.
Moose-Knuckle
04-11-16, 03:06
Will this also apply to strippers?!?
Good, It will be the same as Europe.
Actually every time I was there, 18% was automatically added to your check.
If somebody is making $15 an hour to fill my drink, keep it filled and bring me my food when it's still hot, they are being overpaid.
Consider me Mr. Pink.
Moose-Knuckle
04-11-16, 03:24
Consider me Mr. Pink.
And I thought you weren't a Tarantino fan . . .
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-11-16, 06:01
Will this also apply to strippers?!?
Crap. My mind went there too. Is on the clock the same as on the pole, or do they get paid for non stage time? For lap dances if there are 15 songs per hour, that works out to a dollar per song versus the current! Daddy's Rollin' in with some rolls of Susan B Anthony's baby....
No he is just identifying how the game is rigged. Those with money write the laws that make it so they pay little/no taxes while the working man can't. McDonalds probably had a few billion in "write offs" before they got to that profit number. No different then GE having a $5 Billion dollar loss on the books each year, yet everyone is getting rich and raking in money hand over fist.
They need to pay their fair share because if they don't WE do. Our taxes pay for programs to supplement the income because they don't pay enough. I get their job is to make money, but the government's job is not to subsidize big business and push the costs and obligations onto the working man so shareholders can get bigger dividends.
I think your point illustrates mine. Is the answer to that imbalance to increase the burden of government on everyone? Would not the proper and more viable solution be to end that financial burden instead of simply increasing it?
Granted, I'm bordering g the edge of idealism, aware of a system where that would never happen.
Well, I don't believe in min wages...but I also don't believe in the ridiculous tax code we have, the out of control entitlements, the centralization of govt power, and the heavy regulation. All of these factors make up crony capitalism, where the huge businesses continue to prosper, but it gets harder and harder for the real capitalists, the small businesses.
If somebody is making $15 an hour to fill my drink, keep it filled and bring me my food when it's still hot, they are being overpaid.
Consider me Mr. Pink.
There's a lot more to it than that, depending on where you work.
Servers have to make half your food, check that the cooks prepared it correctly, know the entire menu and how to make drinks, time everything correctly, keep track of x number of tables, deal with a lot of stupid angry people and make sure they come back, etc.
I've painted, landscaped, cooked, served, worked in food manufacturing, a chemlab, and as an engineer, now as an operations manager. In my experience, serving is a pretty difficult job. I don't mind if people don't tip, but you'll be getting whatever time I have left after I ensure the people who do tip get great service. You get what you pay for
Whiskey_Bravo
04-11-16, 08:03
G
This + forcing them to bring a CC machine to the table and run it in front of you need to be standards here. Billions a year are stolen from servers who sell your CC info. They should never touch your card or be able to read the numbers on it.
This. I do all my business expenses using an online program called Concur. I take a picture of the receipt and enter in the details right after my meal. You would be surprised how many times a waiter has added a dollar or two to the tip after the fact. I only catch it because I have a picture of the receipt with the total and the tip and it doesn't match what was charged to the card. I am assuming this is fairly widespread. The mobile CC machines really need to take hold so the server never touches your card.
McDonald's reported 1.9 billion in profits the quarter ending in October 2015. They'll get by - I just hope my fund manager hasn't invested in Mickey D's stock.
The 15.00 wages in all the places that I know of is phased in, not all at once.
Ever stop to think that those business guys that don't want to pay a decent wage are the ones that put those folks in section 8 housing and on medicaid? Yep, that might be one way to look at it - those grownups (it's not high school kids anymore working at McDonald's) working for less than 10.00 an hour at McDonald's are sucking up our tax money so McDonalds can make almost 2 billion a quarter in profit.
So in essence, you and I are subsidizing McDonald's by paying taxes so their workers can live in section 8 housing. Why? Because McDonald's won't pay them a living wage.
Who the freak wants to work at McDonalds? It is the job you take when you can't get another job. I don't know about you, but the newspaper in my town does not even have a half page of help wanted ads, the only folks that are hiring are nursing homes, fast food joints, and WalMart.
Hopefully, if the minimum wage floats up a bit there will be fewer folks on medicaid and subsidized housing.
And no, I'm not a fvcking Socialist, I just don't embrace the 'hey buddy, fvck you, I've got mine' attitude.
Should you really be making a "living" wage working at McDonalds? What exactly is a living wage, is that for one person or a family of 4? If we start paying McDonalds workers "living" wages, I can guarantee that there are going to be far fewer McDonalds workers moving forward. Everything that can be automated will be. Self service kiosk, automatic fry and burger cookers, etc, etc etc. There will be one guy running the place just making sure it all goes correctly and feeding frozen fries and patties into the auto cookers.
McDonald's reported 1.9 billion in profits the quarter ending in October 2015. They'll get by - I just hope my fund manager hasn't invested in Mickey D's stock.
The 15.00 wages in all the places that I know of is phased in, not all at once.
Ever stop to think that those business guys that don't want to pay a decent wage are the ones that put those folks in section 8 housing and on medicaid? Yep, that might be one way to look at it - those grownups (it's not high school kids anymore working at McDonald's) working for less than 10.00 an hour at McDonald's are sucking up our tax money so McDonalds can make almost 2 billion a quarter in profit.
So in essence, you and I are subsidizing McDonald's by paying taxes so their workers can live in section 8 housing. Why? Because McDonald's won't pay them a living wage.
Who the freak wants to work at McDonalds? It is the job you take when you can't get another job. I don't know about you, but the newspaper in my town does not even have a half page of help wanted ads, the only folks that are hiring are nursing homes, fast food joints, and WalMart.
Hopefully, if the minimum wage floats up a bit there will be fewer folks on medicaid and subsidized housing.
And no, I'm not a fvcking Socialist, I just don't embrace the 'hey buddy, fvck you, I've got mine' attitude.
The problem with your argument is that you actually believe that after any wage hike McDonalds will decide that not making $1.6bn is OK. Or that Wallstreet will give a shit about wage hikes and not punish McDonalds for revenue losses without cost savings implementation. Or that your 401k fund won't begin to dump them because they aren't making any more $$. It's NOT possible to isolate cost from profit and profit from business viability. Do you really think that Wallstreet will actually give companies a break for the rising cost of labor?? If you do you obviously haven't been paying attention to how things work. Whether it's phased in or rammed home is irrelevant, cause the end result is the same a big dick in your ass.
Before you labor me as a I don't give a **** about anyone else, I will say this. I don't agree with the whole mess we pretend to call capitalism. It's not. I don't agree with government condoned job exportation because our politicians on both sides of the table are bought and paid for by Wallstreet. I don't agree with many things that our government condones and accepts when it comes to the economy. The only people who have an I've got mine and **** you attitude are politicians and the high echelon executives who own them. Not me and most likely not anyone on this board.
One of the few things that we have to get into our little brain buckets as a people is that working at McDonalds, waiting tables, or any other min wage job is NOT a career. It's NOT meant to be used to provide for a family. These jobs are supposed to be done by kids. Kids who need to learn discipline, value of hard work and who are in need to spending cash or tuition $$. That's what they are.
The problem we are facing isn't that min wage isn't high enough, but that we (government full of high priced whores coupled with their owners) have allowed every other job to escape the country. How man manufacturing jobs did this country have after WW2? Millions. Everyone on the planet wanted American made goods. Jeans, cars, cigarettes... Name 1 ****ing thing that the elected official whose job is to protect the interests of the nation and its citizens did when companies began to export jobs? What?? Extend unemployment benefits to 99 months? How the **** does that help those folks get new jobs? It doesn't. Why do we tolerate illegal immigrants who drive up taxes while simultaneously growing the FSA? Why can't the FSA do those jobs?
Address the root cause of the problem - Lack of quality jobs in the USA. Passing laws that will eliminate another slew of jobs isn't it.
One of the few things that we have to get into our little brain buckets as a people is that working at McDonalds, waiting tables, or any other min wage job is NOT a career. It's NOT meant to be used to provide for a family. These jobs are supposed to be done by kids. Kids who need to learn discipline, value of hard work and who are in need to spending cash or tuition $$. That's what they are.
I had several informal jobs first, but my first job where SS contributions were confiscated from my paycheck was an ultra low-wage part-time service job during high school. The company had a no tipping policy and used mystery shoppers to measure service quality. Service was part of the customer experience and did not require the customer to buy it extra. The company prided itself on customer service. The mystery shoppers would always try to tip regular customers to see if the policy was being followed. Regular customers would try to tip as well. If caught accepting a tip you would be fired. This was in the late 50's, early 60's. Oh how times have changed! BTW, the company is still in business today but I don't know if they still have the policy. I hope so.
College kids frequently work as part-time bank tellers. Should they be tipped as well? I think not. The whole tipping culture needs to go away as it is out of control.
If my waiter is making $15 per hour, I'll tip 10% instead of the usual 20%
I will admit, I am a lousy tipper. I will generously tip $5 up to $25 and you get $10 for everything higher. I went to Vegas for New Years and we ate at Wolfgang Puck, our bill was $912, I tipped $50 which I thought was good for refilling our water and taking our order. I was approached by the general manager with the waiter standing to his side who had the audacity to tell me that the waiters only makes $3.50/hr and I should have tipped appropriately ($150-$200). I looked at him and said, "Me and my girlfriend each had water, a salad, pasta with 1 side and we split a desert and you charged me $912 and you only gave him (waiter) $3.50? And your calling me out?".
Good point.
No, San Francisco and other cities made a law saying that EVERYONE would be paid a minimum of $15, even servers.
Then tipping there should end. The point is to make up the difference between the low waitstaff wage and minimum wage.
NOBODY is interested in a $16 value meal. Plain and simple!
The food is nasty and already too expensive. If you do the math it's not cheaper than a few local restaurants in my area, it is faster. The quality of the food in a traditional sit down family restaurant in my area is easily twice as healthy.
brickboy240
04-11-16, 10:24
Anybody that thinks this govt mandated 15 bucks an hour minimum wage is good, must have flunked Economics 101 or never took the course.
Most of those doing the "raising" and advocating for it have never owned or run a business....ever.
That alone should tell you volumes about how bad of an idea it really is.
Eurodriver
04-11-16, 10:37
Well, I don't believe in min wages...but I also don't believe in the ridiculous tax code we have, the out of control entitlements, the centralization of govt power, and the heavy regulation. All of these factors make up crony capitalism, where the huge businesses continue to prosper, but it gets harder and harder for the real capitalists, the small businesses.
DJ For Pres 2024 (Glocktogo is 2016)
Primus Pilum
04-11-16, 10:39
Actually every time I was there, 18% was automatically added to your check.
Shouldn't be. Tax/VAT is already included in the price everywhere I went (Italy, France, Spain, Germany, Portugal, Azores).
Shouldn't be. Tax/VAT is already included in the price everywhere I went (Italy, France, Spain, Germany, Portugal, Azores).
VAT is not the same as a tip for service.
Primus Pilum
04-11-16, 10:42
I think your point illustrates mine. Is the answer to that imbalance to increase the burden of government on everyone? Would not the proper and more viable solution be to end that financial burden instead of simply increasing it?
Granted, I'm bordering g the edge of idealism, aware of a system where that would never happen.
Agreed. I don't like the idea of the government fixing the imbalance, but the fact is, the system will not reach that equilibrium on its own. Unrestricted/Crony capitalism is just as bad as unrestricted socialism. When the gov and those in power rig the game to their benefit, circumventing natural market forces then I'm not sure what the answer is. We have different sets of laws for different classes of people in this county. Ethically that is unacceptable on any level.
Primus Pilum
04-11-16, 10:49
Anybody that thinks this govt mandated 15 bucks an hour minimum wage is good, must have flunked Economics 101 or never took the course.
Most of those doing the "raising" and advocating for it have never owned or run a business....ever.
That alone should tell you volumes about how bad of an idea it really is.
It is much more complicated than can be explained in a ECON101 course or to your average small business owner. The market and legal manipulation by government makes traditional market forces a moot point for the most part. The whole system is rigged and everyone is getting ****ed (workers, SBO's) except for the ultra wealthy and those that they put in public office. Our Founders would have gone to the ammo box a LONG time before this shit got to where it is today. Government is hardly ever the answer but how do you counter a government who is rigging the system in the first place?
brickboy240
04-11-16, 10:51
With a forced minimum wage that is double what they have now, big businesses like McDonald's will be forced to raise the prices on their foods.
This will mean less people will eat there.
With smaller chains and locally owned restaurants, this will also mean higher food prices and less jobs.
Govt. acts as if they can make a 15 buck an hour law and all business will just shrug their shoulders and continue as they are right now.
How delusional is that?
Way to go big govt! You ran the higher paying manufacturing jobs out of the country...now the food service jobs are sure to follow.
Vote for Bernie!!!!
LOL
Primus Pilum
04-11-16, 10:51
VAT is not the same as a tip for service.
Who said it was?
brickboy240
04-11-16, 10:58
Isn't the European VAT system, how they pay for govt run healthcare in Europe and the UK?
Surprise...free healthcare is, well, not really free!
Primus Pilum
04-11-16, 11:06
Isn't the European VAT system, how they pay for govt run healthcare in Europe and the UK?
Surprise...free healthcare is, well, not really free!
No its paid from their high ass income taxes which hover around 50%.
VAT is a consumption tax. We reduce our income taxes down to about 10% flat tax for everyone and the rest should be made up via VAT. Let those who want to save and invest keep their money. It creates less of a burden for social programs.
Oh and those that won't work when a Job is afforded to them, should starve to death.
Tipping will disappear because the wait staff will disappear. Driving up the cost of labor also drives up the incentive for capital investment and automation.
Mark my words, the day is coming when you walk into a fast food joint and there's exactly one employee and he/she/it will never touch your food. You'll order at a kiosk, the automated system in the back will cook and assemble your food and it will be delivered via conveyor. The one employee will just be there to sweep, mop and wipe off tables. Any action that's consistent and easily quantized into discreet tasks is ripe for automation and that describes food service to a T.
Isn't the European VAT system, how they pay for govt run healthcare in Europe and the UK?
Surprise...free healthcare is, well, not really free!
That and living under our defensive umbrella. If they actually had to pay their fair share of defense, the collective euro welfare state would fall apart in short order. Don't believe that, look at how much our NATO allies depend on US logistics support ANY time they want to do something outside the continent.
I have dated a few waitresses in my day. It really isn't fair how some of them game the system. It is extremely common for them (in smaller diners/local restaurants) to game the system. They will claim little to none of the tips, and then will claim earned income credit on the kids. In the early 2000's it was common for them to get $2000+ per kid back of what we here pay in on taxes all the while they were pulling in more per hour waiting tables as I was as a millwright. That is BS and honestly outright theft.
Wolfgang Puck on New Years Eve! Ok so I had a bottle of wine big deal! Your missing the point!!
Bottle of wine: $900
Everything else: $12
:p
Crap. My mind went there too. Is on the clock the same as on the pole, or do they get paid for non stage time? For lap dances if there are 15 songs per hour, that works out to a dollar per song versus the current! Daddy's Rollin' in with some rolls of Susan B Anthony's baby....
Strippers generally pay to work at a strip club. So any minimum wage increase won't really change things for them. Although I'd expect drinks and the cover charge to get more expensive.
A problem that is happening in Seattle now, Seattle passed the $15 wage, but will take several years to be fully implemented.
The issue now is that they are at $11 a hour, and people are already asking for less hours. They got to have there benifites.
Ivars in Seattle decided to go straight to $15/hr, plus a profit sharing program. ( before their wait staff averaged about $27/hr with tips)
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
brickboy240
04-11-16, 11:37
If we went to a consumption tax, we would also have to abolish the 16th amendment or then we could have both a consumption tax AND an income tax some day. Not good.
I am all for a consumption tax, no income tax and no freebies for those able but that refuse to work. No freebies for refugees or legal or illegal immigrants, either.
(...like THAT would ever happen)
Our current income tax system seems to be mostly a punishment and rewards system for our elected officials and not much more.
VAT is a consumption tax. We reduce our income taxes down to about 10% flat tax for everyone and the rest should be made up via VAT.
And watch the VAT % go up each year.
Will this also apply to strippers?!?
I made way more as a male stripper in college than I do now as a male nurse XD
With a forced minimum wage that is double what they have now, big businesses like McDonald's will be forced to raise the prices on their foods.
This will mean less people will eat there.
With smaller chains and locally owned restaurants, this will also mean higher food prices and less jobs.
Govt. acts as if they can make a 15 buck an hour law and all business will just shrug their shoulders and continue as they are right now.
How delusional is that?
Way to go big govt! You ran the higher paying manufacturing jobs out of the country...now the food service jobs are sure to follow.
Vote for Bernie!!!!
LOL
McDs and other big chains have the resources and volume to survive....it is the small businesses that crushed by laws like this.
DJ For Pres 2024 (Glocktogo is 2016)
LOL..I would be the most hated President ever after I put all my efforts to smashing the vast majority of federal departments and programs. It ain't in the Constitution as an originally intended enumerated power? Bye bye!
LOL..I would be the most hated President ever after I put all my efforts to smashing the vast majority of federal departments and programs. It ain't in the Constitution as an originally intended enumerated power? Bye bye!
Take a lesson from Andrew Jackson, Mr. President. "I killed the bank!"
There's a lot more to it than that, depending on where you work.
Servers have to make half your food, check that the cooks prepared it correctly, know the entire menu and how to make drinks, time everything correctly, keep track of x number of tables, deal with a lot of stupid angry people and make sure they come back, etc.
I've painted, landscaped, cooked, served, worked in food manufacturing, a chemlab, and as an engineer, now as an operations manager. In my experience, serving is a pretty difficult job. I don't mind if people don't tip, but you'll be getting whatever time I have left after I ensure the people who do tip get great service. You get what you pay for
I worked in restaurants 20 years. The fact that another table is being difficult has no bearing on filling my drink, bringing me my food. I tip because I know servers don't even make minimum wage, but if $15 becomes the norm, I'm not stacking on top of that.
Crap. My mind went there too. Is on the clock the same as on the pole, or do they get paid for non stage time? For lap dances if there are 15 songs per hour, that works out to a dollar per song versus the current! Daddy's Rollin' in with some rolls of Susan B Anthony's baby....
Not sure how it is today, but I remember when girls paid to work at the clubs. Their income was 100% tips and they bought the job.
Not sure how it is today, but I remember when girls paid to work at the clubs. Their income was 100% tips and they bought the job.
It was that way at a few clubs in Seattle area before they got shut down.
Girls payed to work there, cover charge, mandatory drink purchases , what elsecould a business owner want.
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
I already informed my boss if my area went to $15/hr wage we would have problems.
I haven't work this to get to this point, buy a 100K in tools. Just to have my base pay, a hand full of dollars away from min.
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
$912??? I admit to being an unenlightened Mississippian who lives in Texas and many here would label me as an old redneck. My hero is G. Gordon Liddy, and I treasure my 1953 copy of I, THE JURY. Now, if Eurodriver and his girl were in San Francisco and blew $912 for this dinner, I would ask if they got a massage and enema in the back room. Otherwise, I am flabbergasted.
Eurodriver
04-11-16, 14:40
$912??? I admit to being an unenlightened Mississippian who lives in Texas and many here would label me as an old redneck. My hero is G. Gordon Liddy, and I treasure my 1953 copy of I, THE JURY. Now, if Eurodriver and his girl were in San Francisco and blew $912 for this dinner, I would ask if they got a massage and enema in the back room. Otherwise, I am flabbergasted.
:jester: Email inbound.
BoringGuy45
04-11-16, 14:42
I'll start by saying that I oppose raising the minimum wage. $15 an hour means the dollar menu becomes the $10 menu. $800 a month rent becomes $1500 a months rent. $2.00 a gallon gas becomes $10 a gallon. And it means in 5-10 years, there's going to be a demand for $25 an hour minimum wage. Hell, we could have $100 an hour minimum, and all it would mean would be $500 hamburgers, $50,000 t-shirts, and the U.S. dollar turning into the Zimbabwe dollar. So no, raising the minimum wage could have dire consequences on this country. People don't realize that the solution to the current problem isn't just "throw money at us."
HOWEVER, having been stuck in entry level jobs for the 8 years since I graduated despite my best efforts, I've learned that there are a lot of people like me and a lot of people with even better credentials who just can't get things going. Yes, a lot of this minimum wage sentiment is perpetuated by lazy, self-absorbed millennials who think wrapping burgers is as important as rescuing hostages or performing brain surgery. There are many who do desperately need a higher paying job and should be able to get one, but can't.
The fault, of course, is not with minimum wage. The fault is in companies and government agencies getting greedy in what kind of employees they want. Also, as our government expands, once qualified people are no longer qualified as new certifications and experience becomes required as minimum application standards. The economy is still bad, but there are a LOT of jobs available. The problem is, the number of people qualified is very small, and the cost of getting oneself qualified is steadily growing. Here's a hypothetical:
Bill graduates from college 11 years ago (2005) with degrees in history and secondary education. He student teaches for awhile, does some substitute teaching, and then lands a job as a social studies teacher in time for the 2006-2007 school year. He gets married and has a kid. He has some debt but it's manageable with his salary, and he is able to afford the mortgage on a reasonable house. A year or so later, he and his wife have a second kid.
Then in 2008, the economy takes a shit. The school district where he works gets hit especially hard. Because the high school where he works is already a pretty small school, the decision is made to merge with the neighboring high school. Unfortunately, only half the teachers at Bill's school keep their jobs, and Bill is not one of them.
Now Bill is out of work, he's got two young children, and a mortgage he now can't afford. He looks around at neighboring school districts, but pretty much everyone in the area is on a hiring freeze for everything. He looks at the private schools, but they are flooded with resumes from out-of-work teachers, so he can't land any job. He begins searching in other areas of the country, but it seems like everywhere he looks, everyone is on a hiring freeze, and in the places that aren't, he's not qualified as his certification doesn't cross over.
So Bill takes a job as a server at a local restaurant chain. He's doing okay with wage and tips, but still coming up short enough that he needs to borrow money from his parents to keep paying his mortgage on time. His oldest son has a medical emergency one day, and though he ends up okay, they now have thousands of dollars in medical bills. Bill's car breaks down and he needs to get a new one as there's no public transit in the area where he lives. So, he sells the house, and they move into a tiny apartment. All the while, he's applying for teaching jobs everywhere. But places are either not hiring, or if they are, the jobs were spoken for before the hiring announcement was even made. On top of this, for him to keep his certification active, a new regulation is passed and he needs to take a 20 credit course on some kind of teaching diversity bullshit.
As he's not currently in the education field, he's got to pay for these bullshit courses out of his own pocket. So he gets loans, works days and weekends at the restaurant, and does his courses at night. After a couple years, he's done. By this time, he sees a job opening for a certified teacher with 3 years experience. Awesome, he's got that! But wait...in 2010, the state changed some of the accreditation regulations. While Bill taught for 3 years, he was teaching under the old regulations, which are currently not recognized. He calls about this, and finds out that it means that his 3 years don't count; he is to be regarded as though he has no experience whatsoever. So he applies for some private school positions to get experience. He gets one and works for a few years, though it doesn't pay much more than his restaurant job.
After a couple years, the private school unfortunately closes. He sees an opening at a public school with his credentials plus 3 years experience, which he now has under the new regulations. BUT, because SO many teachers took his route (getting experience at private schools) this school will only accept experience in other PUBLIC schools; private school experience will not count. Now, Bill is back at working at the restaurant, and there's no light at the end of the tunnel.
I, my wife, my brother, my best friend, and many friends from our church have had this or similar experiences. Every time we get qualified, they raise the bar. Then, they have the nerve to complain that there "aren't enough qualified applicants" and that everyone is lazy and just wants to bus tables for a career.
Anyway, that's my rant. I don't agree with a minimum wage increase, but I can understand SOME people who feel they deserve it. What needs to happen is a greater sense of realism for hiring managers at jobs above the entry level as well.
Eurodriver
04-11-16, 15:06
Why did Bill not:
A) Join the military to get out of shithole neighborhood full of drug dealers, wife beaters, and gangs
B) Use Post 9/11 GI Bill
C) Become a CPA
D) Heat up Mercedes to 165* for several hours to kill bed bugs from hanging out with people who still live in shithole neighborhoods full of drug dealers, wife beaters, and gangs?
The problem is that people (not necessarily you) think a minimum wage increase will lead to companies saying "Ahh, yes. You know what, we made $1,900,000,000 last year. We'll take that cut to $3,000,000,000 so that our employees will have better lifestyles" and not simply fire the waste then make the $15/hr employees work even harder until they are replaced by automation or outsourced. Additionally, while there are a lot of dead end jobs out there no doubt, that is a result of things like minimum wage/government subsidies...not in spite of it!
There remains a disconnect between the left and the right and that is due solely to people thinking the government is somehow responsible for forcing companies/colleges to hire/pay for people to join. That's called Communism. Companies are responsible to shareholders to turn a profit...or to plant trees, or to hire people and fire people at will just to play with the local job market's emotions. That's shitty, but it's called Capitalism.
Lastly, someone here said it best many months ago. I would be cool with paying taxes/minimum wages/etc if we were like exploring Mars and making it habitable. But why should a free company be forced to pay $15/hr to anyone so they can buy an ipod and pay sales taxes that go to Fire Departments and other FSA types?
We don't need access to higher minimum wages. We need access to better jobs. The former is easy to flap gums about knowing full well that it won't pass muster. The latter takes some serious thought and determination. Something our whores don't have much stomach for.
BoringGuy45
04-11-16, 16:40
Why did Bill not:
A) Join the military to get out of shithole neighborhood full of drug dealers, wife beaters, and gangs
B) Use Post 9/11 GI Bill
C) Become a CPA
D) Heat up Mercedes to 165* for several hours to kill bed bugs from hanging out with people who still live in shithole neighborhoods full of drug dealers, wife beaters, and gangs?
The problem is that people (not necessarily you) think a minimum wage increase will lead to companies saying "Ahh, yes. You know what, we made $1,900,000,000 last year. We'll take that cut to $3,000,000,000 so that our employees will have better lifestyles" and not simply fire the waste then make the $15/hr employees work even harder until they are replaced by automation or outsourced. Additionally, while there are a lot of dead end jobs out there no doubt, that is a result of things like minimum wage/government subsidies...not in spite of it!
There remains a disconnect between the left and the right and that is due solely to people thinking the government is somehow responsible for forcing companies/colleges to hire/pay for people to join. That's called Communism. Companies are responsible to shareholders to turn a profit...or to plant trees, or to hire people and fire people at will just to play with the local job market's emotions. That's shitty, but it's called Capitalism.
Lastly, someone here said it best many months ago. I would be cool with paying taxes/minimum wages/etc if we were like exploring Mars and making it habitable. But why should a free company be forced to pay $15/hr to anyone so they can buy an ipod and pay sales taxes that go to Fire Departments and other FSA types?
Like I said, I don't agree with raising the minimum wage one cent higher. I get paid $17 an hour currently. My wife gets paid $11 an for her job. Between the two of us, we barely make enough to get by on our own, but it still is just enough. If the minimum wages goes up to $15 an hour, I can guaran****ingtee that, while her pay would go up, mine would NOT. I'm currently about $10 above minimum wage, she's about $4. Overnight, she would be paid minimum wage and I would be paid just $2 above minimum. I can be sure that our rent would probably go up near $2000 a month, meaning we would likely have to move in with her parents. So no, **** that.
The military option is there...for some people. The problem is, what if Bill can't join the military? What if he has asthma? Maybe he was in a car accident as a kid and has a plate in his spine that MEPS won't overlook? What if he had a bout with depression in high school and his doctor put him on Zoloft for a few months? The latter, I found out first hand, is currently a permanent, unwaiverable disqualifier, even if you've been off the medication for a long period of time. There are some people out there who are somewhat content to just complain about their situation, but there are also some who have tried pretty much all the avenues and can't get anywhere.
The government shouldn't have any business in telling companies who they can or can't hire, but they aren't helping the situation by constantly raising the requirements to get certain jobs. My wife works in childcare; every time she gets another certification to get a raise or a better job, the state seems to add another requirement. So, she'll take the classes, get certified in that, and as soon as she applies for something better, the minimum standards go up AGAIN. So instead of raising minimum wage, they need to stop requiring all this bullshit red tape that makes it so hard to get out of minimum wage jobs.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-11-16, 16:40
I made way more as a male stripper in college than I do now as a male nurse XD
Ever try being a male nurse stripper?
It was that way at a few clubs in Seattle area before they got shut down.
Girls payed to work there, cover charge, mandatory drink purchases , what elsecould a business owner want.
Naked chicks, oh, yep got that covered.
BoringGuy- You realize how much Bill was screwed over by all the regulations around the teaching profession. Now, I'm all for accreditation of airline pilots and teachers, but that is a raw deal all around.
Primus Pilum
04-11-16, 18:25
I'll start by saying that I oppose raising the minimum wage. $15 an hour means the dollar menu becomes the $10 menu. $800 a month rent becomes $1500 a months rent. $2.00 a gallon gas becomes $10 a gallon. And it means in 5-10 years, there's going to be a demand for $25 an hour minimum wage. Hell, we could have $100 an hour minimum, and all it would mean would be $500 hamburgers, $50,000 t-shirts, and the U.S. dollar turning into the Zimbabwe dollar. So no, raising the minimum wage could have dire consequences on this country. People don't realize that the solution to the current problem isn't just "throw money at us."
HOWEVER, having been stuck in entry level jobs for the 8 years since I graduated despite my best efforts, I've learned that there are a lot of people like me and a lot of people with even better credentials who just can't get things going. Yes, a lot of this minimum wage sentiment is perpetuated by lazy, self-absorbed millennials who think wrapping burgers is as important as rescuing hostages or performing brain surgery. There are many who do desperately need a higher paying job and should be able to get one, but can't.
The fault, of course, is not with minimum wage. The fault is in companies and government agencies getting greedy in what kind of employees they want. Also, as our government expands, once qualified people are no longer qualified as new certifications and experience becomes required as minimum application standards. The economy is still bad, but there are a LOT of jobs available. The problem is, the number of people qualified is very small, and the cost of getting oneself qualified is steadily growing. Here's a hypothetical:
Bill graduates from college 11 years ago (2005) with degrees in history and secondary education. He student teaches for awhile, does some substitute teaching, and then lands a job as a social studies teacher in time for the 2006-2007 school year. He gets married and has a kid. He has some debt but it's manageable with his salary, and he is able to afford the mortgage on a reasonable house. A year or so later, he and his wife have a second kid.
Then in 2008, the economy takes a shit. The school district where he works gets hit especially hard. Because the high school where he works is already a pretty small school, the decision is made to merge with the neighboring high school. Unfortunately, only half the teachers at Bill's school keep their jobs, and Bill is not one of them.
Now Bill is out of work, he's got two young children, and a mortgage he now can't afford. He looks around at neighboring school districts, but pretty much everyone in the area is on a hiring freeze for everything. He looks at the private schools, but they are flooded with resumes from out-of-work teachers, so he can't land any job. He begins searching in other areas of the country, but it seems like everywhere he looks, everyone is on a hiring freeze, and in the places that aren't, he's not qualified as his certification doesn't cross over.
So Bill takes a job as a server at a local restaurant chain. He's doing okay with wage and tips, but still coming up short enough that he needs to borrow money from his parents to keep paying his mortgage on time. His oldest son has a medical emergency one day, and though he ends up okay, they now have thousands of dollars in medical bills. Bill's car breaks down and he needs to get a new one as there's no public transit in the area where he lives. So, he sells the house, and they move into a tiny apartment. All the while, he's applying for teaching jobs everywhere. But places are either not hiring, or if they are, the jobs were spoken for before the hiring announcement was even made. On top of this, for him to keep his certification active, a new regulation is passed and he needs to take a 20 credit course on some kind of teaching diversity bullshit.
As he's not currently in the education field, he's got to pay for these bullshit courses out of his own pocket. So he gets loans, works days and weekends at the restaurant, and does his courses at night. After a couple years, he's done. By this time, he sees a job opening for a certified teacher with 3 years experience. Awesome, he's got that! But wait...in 2010, the state changed some of the accreditation regulations. While Bill taught for 3 years, he was teaching under the old regulations, which are currently not recognized. He calls about this, and finds out that it means that his 3 years don't count; he is to be regarded as though he has no experience whatsoever. So he applies for some private school positions to get experience. He gets one and works for a few years, though it doesn't pay much more than his restaurant job.
After a couple years, the private school unfortunately closes. He sees an opening at a public school with his credentials plus 3 years experience, which he now has under the new regulations. BUT, because SO many teachers took his route (getting experience at private schools) this school will only accept experience in other PUBLIC schools; private school experience will not count. Now, Bill is back at working at the restaurant, and there's no light at the end of the tunnel.
I, my wife, my brother, my best friend, and many friends from our church have had this or similar experiences. Every time we get qualified, they raise the bar. Then, they have the nerve to complain that there "aren't enough qualified applicants" and that everyone is lazy and just wants to bus tables for a career.
Anyway, that's my rant. I don't agree with a minimum wage increase, but I can understand SOME people who feel they deserve it. What needs to happen is a greater sense of realism for hiring managers at jobs above the entry level as well.
There are very little jobs availible. They are being exported or being advertised in a way that lets them hire H1-B's instead. The Job market is the worst it has been since the great depression.
Bill needs to learn that his history and teaching degree mean jack shit. Would have been better off becoming a plumber, welder or any tradesman. If one goes to college, especially if they are taking out student loans, it behooves them to study in a field that can get a job in. Accounting, Finance, Information Systems, Engineering, Math, Hard Sciences , Nursing, Economics, ect.
Kill/Deport the illegals, end ALL foreign worker programs, Add a tariff to all imported goods to make manufacturing costs attractive here, Introduce mandatory conscripted Military service that is a requirement to vote- own a business- run for office & get government benefits, and wipe out any civilization that wants to get froggy and not tow the line (NK, Iran, SA, Iraq, AFG, VZ, ect). There I just solved all the problems in this country.
thepatriot2705
04-11-16, 18:31
No he is just identifying how the game is rigged. Those with money write the laws that make it so they pay little/no taxes while the working man can't. McDonalds probably had a few billion in "write offs" before they got to that profit number. No different then GE having a $5 Billion dollar loss on the books each year, yet everyone is getting rich and raking in money hand over fist.
They need to pay their fair share because if they don't WE do. Our taxes pay for programs to supplement the income because they don't pay enough. I get their job is to make money, but the government's job is not to subsidize big business and push the costs and obligations onto the working man so shareholders can get bigger dividends.
Lets get one thing perfectly ****ing straight. There should be no federal corporate income tax. Read the damn constitution people. Article 1, Section 8 specifies what taxes can be levied and what for. The federal government has a very ****ing small role in the grand scheme of the USA. The majority of decisions should be made at the state level like the 10th amendment set out to do.
Primus Pilum
04-11-16, 18:32
Why did Bill not:
A) Join the military to get out of shithole neighborhood full of drug dealers, wife beaters, and gangs
B) Use Post 9/11 GI Bill
C) Become a CPA
D) Heat up Mercedes to 165* for several hours to kill bed bugs from hanging out with people who still live in shithole neighborhoods full of drug dealers, wife beaters, and gangs?
The problem is that people (not necessarily you) think a minimum wage increase will lead to companies saying "Ahh, yes. You know what, we made $1,900,000,000 last year. We'll take that cut to $3,000,000,000 so that our employees will have better lifestyles" and not simply fire the waste then make the $15/hr employees work even harder until they are replaced by automation or outsourced. Additionally, while there are a lot of dead end jobs out there no doubt, that is a result of things like minimum wage/government subsidies...not in spite of it!
There remains a disconnect between the left and the right and that is due solely to people thinking the government is somehow responsible for forcing companies/colleges to hire/pay for people to join. That's called Communism. Companies are responsible to shareholders to turn a profit...or to plant trees, or to hire people and fire people at will just to play with the local job market's emotions. That's shitty, but it's called Capitalism.
Lastly, someone here said it best many months ago. I would be cool with paying taxes/minimum wages/etc if we were like exploring Mars and making it habitable. But why should a free company be forced to pay $15/hr to anyone so they can buy an ipod and pay sales taxes that go to Fire Departments and other FSA types?
Because if said company is using Laws that IT lobbied to push the burdens and costs of doing business to the taxpayer than that is bullshit. They laws were written to benefit the wealthy few and they get to rape the taxpayer instead of paying their fair share. And yes I said fair share because they get to play by a different set of rules and you or I. And even when they break what little laws there are to reign them in, they rarely get prosecuted &/ or Jailed.
After the 2008 crash, Hundreds if not thousands who created this disaster should have been lined up against a wall and shot. Instead, less than a dozen were even prosecuted. The largest theft of wealth since the GD. Meanwhile the taxpayer gets to bail them out. They prioritize the profits and socialize the losses. No surprise that the ones who make the laws , enforce the laws and breaking the laws are all the same folks who go back and forth between private/public office.
thepatriot2705
04-11-16, 18:34
HOWEVER, having been stuck in entry level jobs for the 8 years since I graduated despite my best efforts, I've learned that there are a lot of people like me and a lot of people with even better credentials who just can't get things going. Yes, a lot of this minimum wage sentiment is perpetuated by lazy, self-absorbed millennials who think wrapping burgers is as important as rescuing hostages or performing brain surgery. There are many who do desperately need a higher paying job and should be able to get one, but can't.
.
You can blame dumbass politicians for flooding the US job market with cheap labor via H1B Visas and the like
Primus Pilum
04-11-16, 18:35
You can blame dumbass politicians for flooding the US job market with cheap labor via H1B Visas and the like
Or you could get a degree in something other than woman's studies / Conflict Resolution where there is a demand of US born , educated citizens.
I've been underpaid for what I do for quite some time. So I'm probably going to do something else.
I think people follow their passions and ideals in youth and when later finally becomes today they realuze it wasn't profitable.
But I'm lucky. I stayed single because I knew I wouldn't be able to afford a good life. Not just financially but time-wise. At one point I worked 18 hours a day 7 days a week. I dropped a lot of weight and lived on Marlboro reds and Red Bull. My eyes looked like a racoon and my days were like skip frame silent movies.
Just for gun I wanted or some silly shit.
Meh...my next big move will be something less jarring.
I can understand frustration with hard times. But after a few near life experiences I realized
1. We all gonna die
2. Nobody is gonna care in 30 years
3. The hippies weren't all wrong
4. The squares weren't all right
5. There's always a way out
6. If you can't join em, beat em.
I think people follow their passions and ideals in youth and when later finally becomes today they realuze it wasn't profitable.
.
Oh yeah, if I even knew a small amount then of what I know now I would be much better off.
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BoringGuy45
04-11-16, 19:20
There are very little jobs availible. They are being exported or being advertised in a way that lets them hire H1-B's instead. The Job market is the worst it has been since the great depression.
Bill needs to learn that his history and teaching degree mean jack shit. Would have been better off becoming a plumber, welder or any tradesman. If one goes to college, especially if they are taking out student loans, it behooves them to study in a field that can get a job in. Accounting, Finance, Information Systems, Engineering, Math, Hard Sciences , Nursing, Economics, ect.
Kill/Deport the illegals, end ALL foreign worker programs, Add a tariff to all imported goods to make manufacturing costs attractive here, Introduce mandatory conscripted Military service that is a requirement to vote- own a business- run for office & get government benefits, and wipe out any civilization that wants to get froggy and not tow the line (NK, Iran, SA, Iraq, AFG, VZ, ect). There I just solved all the problems in this country.
Until 2008, things like education, history, pre-law, business administration, etc. WERE degrees with which people could get jobs. Then suddenly, jobs disappeared and nothing was a viable option. Trades are a better option now, but 10 years ago, there were a lot more options available.
The other problem is that not everyone is good at math and hard sciences. People aren't cogs that can just be plugged into any position and be expected to succeed. We're in big trouble if our answer to the economic problem is, "Either be really good at math or shut and starve to death."
There's a lot of jobs outside of science, math, and trades, if only there were more than a small percentage of people who could qualify for them.
I can honestly say that I or our company have never started any one out at minimum wage. We get the usual "green" guy off the street and we know he isn't going make it but we still pay him $12.00/hour. I'm lucky to work for and own my dads company which employs over 100 employees, 28 employees have been with us over 35 years, over 30 have been with us longer than 20 years. We keep our business understaffed but for good reason. During the slow times like 2015 till now, we can afford to pay everyone for 40 hours. Their wages are from $22-$35/hr depending on what they do. Sales, purchacing, engineering salaries exceed $75k. In good times, I work them like slaves. I pay double overtime and most guys bring home $2k/week. But a lot of people don't understand what else I have to pay that they don't see. Whatever there social security tax is on the check they get every week, I have to match it, usually around $12k a month. Whatever there federal income tax is on there check every week, I have to match, usually around $38k a month. Whatever they contribute to there 401k, I have to match $1 to $1 up to 6% (I do that voluntarily but it cost $24k a week). Workmans Compensation cost me $18k month. Health insurance, even though my guys bitch because they have to pay $80-$220 a month, the company has to pay the other $60k every month. I still have to pay sales tax 8.25%(city), corporate tax 16%(fed), payroll tax 12% (fed), franchise tax 17% profit (Texas), inventory tax 2.9%(fed), capital gains tax 33.8% profit (fed), tax on all my forklifts, trucks, overhead cranes, machines and even welding equipment 5.4% after depreciation (fed).
Emplyeed use to be assets, the federal government has turned them into liabilities. Now days, employees are divided into 2 categories, those who bring money to the table and those who don't. Sucks but its what it is. For the guys who bring money to the table, they not only have to bring enough to cover them but have enough left over to cover the other guys and help pay the bills and allow me to go out and buy whatever I want.
$15/hour will kill small business. It wont hurt me but it will hurt small companies that employ 5-25 employees. Those are the busineses that are so competitive they cant just simply raise there price. What will happen is you and I will check our self out and bag all of our groceries for now on, we will most likely use an app at every restatraunt to place an order and pay, and pay a 20% surechage at service based businesses like dry cleaners, hotels, oil change/tire/battery businesses and retail because I don't see it any other way. And there will be a lot of young 18-24 year olds having to stick it out trying to find a job that will pay them $15/hr and when they do, they will be locked in at $15, they will most likely never see a raise.
Primus Pilum
04-11-16, 20:09
Until 2008, things like education, history, pre-law, business administration, etc. WERE degrees with which people could get jobs. Then suddenly, jobs disappeared and nothing was a viable option. Trades are a better option now, but 10 years ago, there were a lot more options available.
The other problem is that not everyone is good at math and hard sciences. People aren't cogs that can just be plugged into any position and be expected to succeed. We're in big trouble if our answer to the economic problem is, "Either be really good at math or shut and starve to death."
There's a lot of jobs outside of science, math, and trades, if only there were more than a small percentage of people who could qualify for them.
Education has never paid shit, and History is useless unless you are top 1% and can get a teaching or research gig. Pre-law is useless unless you want to be a para-legal making $20/hr for the rest of your life and Business Admin was for those that couldn't hack the real business degrees. Look at history and see who has been historically employees even during a downturn in the economy. What jobs have the lowest jobless rates? I have yet to find someone with a degree in any engineering field who can't get a well paying job somewhere. Hell over half of the people with engineering degrees, don't even work in engineering. Wonder why that is?
Lets face it, the world does not accommodate what you like. If you suck at something , work harder. Math is the universal language and if you suck at it than you are in for a rough life. There was plenty of shit I sucked at and absolutely hated, but worked my ass off to pass because that is what is expected. College isn't even hard. If you actually apply yourself, you have to be damn near retarded to not get B's and above.
Yes there are lots of jobs outside of those desirable fields. However for the most part they pay shit, are super competitive or require some other social/education skillsets to make it work. For every tenured History teacher at the State U making $120K, there are 499 History majors working as bartenders, servers, or sweeping floors. Its almost impossible to NOT walk into a job starting out at $50-70K if you actually study something that the world has in demand. I layed out those very degrees in a previous post. If someone is going to go into tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt for an education, then it's ****ing moronic not to pick a job that will provide the ROI to make the juice worth the squeeze. Otherwise, just become a plumber, bust your ass, get your Master after 8 years and enjoy making $80-100K a year to pull permits and tell other shitheads what to do. All while having no student loans to pay back. However that requires actual work, not sitting around reading books all day and coming up with rhetorical arguments.
College isn't everything. I don't regret going and toy with the idea of getting a second or advanced degree, but it isn't everything.
There have been times when I had to begrudgingly work under a person that had nowhere near my education, level of training, or street experience. They would look fresh as a daisy in a pressed uniform with their cup of coffee trying to MMQB while sounding like a jackass while I am tired, disheveled, been in a fight, and trying to explain that laws have changed, etc.
"Yeah but I got promoted though. That makes me the better officer".
So ya say fvck it and tell em "sign off on it or do it yourself. Or do nothing I'm going home, I'm tired"
There are a LOT of people in positions they don't need to be in who are barely literate and possibly functionally retarded.
So....deal with it.
Whiskey_Bravo
04-11-16, 20:25
Education has never paid shit, and History is useless unless you are top 1% and can get a teaching or research gig. Pre-law is useless unless you want to be a para-legal making $20/hr for the rest of your life and Business Admin was for those that couldn't hack the real business degrees. Look at history and see who has been historically employees even during a downturn in the economy. What jobs have the lowest jobless rates? I have yet to find someone with a degree in any engineering field who can't get a well paying job somewhere. Hell over half of the people with engineering degrees, don't even work in engineering. Wonder why that is?
Lets face it, the world does not accommodate what you like. If you suck at something , work harder. Math is the universal language and if you suck at it than you are in for a rough life. There was plenty of shit I sucked at and absolutely hated, but worked my ass off to pass because that is what is expected. College isn't even hard. If you actually apply yourself, you have to be damn near retarded to not get B's and above.
Yes there are lots of jobs outside of those desirable fields. However for the most part they pay shit, are super competitive or require some other social/education skillsets to make it work. For every tenured History teacher at the State U making $120K, there are 499 History majors working as bartenders, servers, or sweeping floors. Its almost impossible to NOT walk into a job starting out at $50-70K if you actually study something that the world has in demand. I layed out those very degrees in a previous post. If someone is going to go into tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt for an education, then it's ****ing moronic not to pick a job that will provide the ROI to make the juice worth the squeeze. Otherwise, just become a plumber, bust your ass, get your Master after 8 years and enjoy making $80-100K a year to pull permits and tell other shitheads what to do. All while having no student loans to pay back. However that requires actual work, not sitting around reading books all day and coming up with rhetorical arguments.
Spot on post.
I get sick of hearing about all the people that just can't find jobs after going to college. Yes you can find a job, it just might not be the one you think you deserve. Pick a degree that is worth something and I promise you can find one. Or like mentioned above, pick a trade. The HVAC industry here in Texas is always in short supply because nobody wants to actually work. If you learn and actually show up for work and keep clean you can make 75k plus as just a tech. Get into the sales side and there are guys making 150-250k a year working for one of the larger companies. Hard work and long hours sure, but it's a job that pays.
Should you really be making a "living" wage working at McDonalds? What exactly is a living wage, is that for one person or a family of 4? If we start paying McDonalds workers "living" wages, I can guarantee that there are going to be far fewer McDonalds workers moving forward. Everything that can be automated will be. Self service kiosk, automatic fry and burger cookers, etc, etc etc. There will be one guy running the place just making sure it all goes correctly and feeding frozen fries and patties into the auto cookers.
Should you really be making a "living" wage working at McDonalds?
Depends on the job - dumping fries in the fryer - not so much. If you read my post I noted that the newspaper in my little slice of heaven doesn't have pages of want ads, the jobs that are available are primarily service sector jobs. Even the manufacturing/industrial jobs don't pay well. There are police departments in some communities in my area that pay less than 15.00 per hour - do cops have the right to a living wage?
What exactly is a living wage, is that for one person or a family of 4?
I'd base it of family of 4 with 2 wage earners. My thought would be 15-20% above the poverty level. So there is some room for discretionary spending - not only for the sake of the wage earner but for the sake of the economy. I did some rough figuring once and I came up with twelve something an hour for the minimum.
If we start paying McDonalds workers "living" wages, I can guarantee that there are going to be far fewer McDonalds workers moving forward. Everything that can be automated will be. Self service kiosk, automatic fry and burger cookers, etc, etc etc. There will be one guy running the place just making sure it all goes correctly and feeding frozen fries and patties into the auto cookers.
We have to make some fundamental changes. As it is, our economy stands on too few workers who actually take part in making physical products and too many workers who make their living shuffling paper.
FromMyColdDeadHand posted earlier about he and his wife's education and their family. He asserted that everyone could work to achieve what he has. That is absurd. First it doesn't take into consideration differing mental and physical abilities. Second, assuming FMCDH is a pharmaceutical sales rep (I have no idea what he does) there is a finite need for pharmaceutical sales reps, we all can't do that.
My wife and I come in a little less educated then FMCDH and his, about 12 years between us, we do okay. I don't think every worker should make what I make, nor do I think that I should make as much as the orthopedic surgeon who put me back together after my last adventure. What I believe we need is a wage that encourages people to work and keep striving. I believe that if a man works honestly and with vigor, he should be able to rest in adequate comfort, not palatial comfort, adequate.
A server who makes more money than our enlisted troops won't get a gratuity from me.
Why did Bill not:
C) Become a CPA
Yeah, because everyone grows up wanting to be a CPA. (Sorry)
Call me nuts, but I'm in the no one owes you jack shit category.
Regardless. End of story. I know a lot people who have trekked one and even two continents to find better life.
I'm sure the dip shit politicians will come up with some grand ideas when all of the kiosks and robots start replacing everyone.
Anyone who thinks that a "living wage" will get people out of the fsa and section 8 are dreaming. One has nothing to do with the other. That part of society exists because of what they are given. Not lack of.
I don't really enjoy hiring college grads unless they are engineers. A couple of years ago, we brought in my cousin and sister who both have MBAs. They were going to be the "business" side of our company. They hired people straight out of college and paid them $75k to do stuff like marketing, sales administration, account specialist and they gave them all business cards with titles like "house account sales executive", "executive sales", "chief sales administrator" and my favorite "strategic marketing executive". They spent most of there time "planning" and going to Top Golf and happy hours to bond and build teamwork. I personally fired all 8 of them. I did it the week before Christmas. They had no desire, no ambition, no passion. Just wanted a job title, good salary and to hang out. Not one of them brought anything of value. I had one of the girls start to cry during her unceremonious firing, she told me that she would never find a job that paid her what she made working here. I was like, my sister is the one to blame, she hired you and paid you $75k to handle our social media like facebook, twitter, Instagram and linkedin and create a monthly news letter and gave you the "sales marketing executive" title. Not everybody who has a degree is worth more than those who don't. Poor, smart and hungry is worth far more to me than a guy with a piece of paper.
The best people to hire are those who are teachable and willing to learn. Not a "know it all" but someone who has a good basic understanding. Someone who is family oriented and not afraid to get there hands dirty. When my dad started his company in 1975, he hired 3 people. An 22 year old who just got out of the marines with no college, a 24 year old who just got out of the Army with no college degree and my dads brother who was working for sears at the time. Today, one is the Chief Operations Officer at our company, he is in charge of manufacturing, remanufacturing, engineering, purchasing and sales and makes over $600k. The other is over our offshore division, responsible for $50 million in sales and he makes over $600k.
Now, have ever seen the move "erin brockivich", that's one of our companies but we bought it in the late 90's. I handle that and mostly in charge of manufacturing or locating obsolete parts and special hard to find equipment for customers.
As for everyone getting a $15 minimum pay. let people prove they are worth $15/ hour first. Start them at $7.50 and make them wait till a 45-60 day observation period and if they perform well and show up on time, give them $15, if not- hit the road. No sense of paying a $7/hr employee $15
Recently I read that when inflation is considered, wages have been flat since about 1970, and that it is outrage from this condition that has allowed Trump to have so much populist appeal. I believe this statistic but can't give a source. When you consider the number of manufacturing jobs that we shipped offshore, you can readily see that fewer blue collar jobs with good pay exist. That leaves service jobs, and if you're ever talked to an Asian or some other person across the world while trying to get customer service, then you are seeing service jobs that were shipped elsewhere. When China starts jacking up prices of the millions of items that they make but we don't, we will see our living standard go lower. Anyway, $15/hour minimum wage is nothing more than fodder for discussion and will not be a federal mandate anytime soon.
I have a theory about inflation: Inflation goes up in direct response of the amount of credit issued to everyone in this country. People have access to more credit than there income in the US.
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#safe=off&q=average+family+debt+in+US
That figure is based on a household with $85k a year income. People will literally be debt free until the age of 18-20 and spend the rest of there lives in debt.
SAD!!! I personally don't thing inflations has anything to do with shipping jobs overseas, it may have something to do with it, but I think people having access to more and more credit has a bigger role. The fact that most people don't own anything and it takes years to pay back what you borrow is significant in the steady price increases over the years.
thepatriot2705
04-11-16, 22:22
Or you could get a degree in something other than woman's studies / Conflict Resolution where there is a demand of US born , educated citizens.
Do you realize what H1B visas do? They allow company to import cheap labor for fields like IT, finance, accounting, etc.
https://thecurrentmoment.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/productivity-and-real-wages.jpg
http://www.susps.org/images/chart1.gif
Immigration was key to the US's early success. Fact is, we no longer need immigrants to prosper as a nation. Time to close the borders.
Whiskey_Bravo
04-12-16, 08:28
Should you really be making a "living" wage working at McDonalds?
Depends on the job - dumping fries in the fryer - not so much. If you read my post I noted that the newspaper in my little slice of heaven doesn't have pages of want ads, the jobs that are available are primarily service sector jobs. Even the manufacturing/industrial jobs don't pay well. There are police departments in some communities in my area that pay less than 15.00 per hour - do cops have the right to a living wage?
Yes maybe the manager at McDonalds, but the fry cooks and cashiers not so much. That's what kids or people just starting out are for. Yes, a LEO deserves a living wage. I can't imagine going to work for one that didn't pay one, so sometimes you have to make the choice to do something else or move if that is your calling.
What exactly is a living wage, is that for one person or a family of 4?
I'd base it of family of 4 with 2 wage earners. My thought would be 15-20% above the poverty level. So there is some room for discretionary spending - not only for the sake of the wage earner but for the sake of the economy. I did some rough figuring once and I came up with twelve something an hour for the minimum.
If we start paying McDonalds workers "living" wages, I can guarantee that there are going to be far fewer McDonalds workers moving forward. Everything that can be automated will be. Self service kiosk, automatic fry and burger cookers, etc, etc etc. There will be one guy running the place just making sure it all goes correctly and feeding frozen fries and patties into the auto cookers.
We have to make some fundamental changes. As it is, our economy stands on too few workers who actually take part in making physical products and too many workers who make their living shuffling paper.
Does our economy have issues? Sure. But having the government mandate an artificial "living wage" isn't the answer. If we decide it's $15hr now, in 10 years it will be $20, then $25 and on down the line. Artificially manipulating the economy even further is not going to help.
FromMyColdDeadHand posted earlier about he and his wife's education and their family. He asserted that everyone could work to achieve what he has. That is absurd. First it doesn't take into consideration differing mental and physical abilities. Second, assuming FMCDH is a pharmaceutical sales rep (I have no idea what he does) there is a finite need for pharmaceutical sales reps, we all can't do that.
My wife and I come in a little less educated then FMCDH and his, about 12 years between us, we do okay. I don't think every worker should make what I make, nor do I think that I should make as much as the orthopedic surgeon who put me back together after my last adventure. What I believe we need is a wage that encourages people to work and keep striving. I believe that if a man works honestly and with vigor, he should be able to rest in adequate comfort, not palatial comfort, adequate.
An artificial number set by the federal government will not encourage people to strive and work harder, it will actually have the exact opposite affect. I am beginning to see the disconnect. The thing that should encourage people to work hard, sacrifice and strive is the desire to better themselves, advance and make more money. Do you really think raising the minimum wage to $15 hr will really cause all the food service workers that have been demonstrating across the country to work extra super hard going forward, or will it cause them to protest about the next free thing they want?
Yeah, because everyone grows up wanting to be a CPA. (Sorry)
Sometimes you have to make hard choices and do something that not only you can do, but that is needed. If your art career isn't working out maybe you should suck it up and become a CPA, or a plumber, or carpenter. FFS, go work at Lowe's or Home Depot and work your way up to a zone manager or something, those guys make decent money.
I always wanted to be an international explorer but I couldn't figure out how to make money and support my family doing that so I moved past my Indiana Jones phase.
Eurodriver
04-12-16, 08:48
Yeah, because everyone grows up wanting to be a CPA. (Sorry)
No one grows up wanting to be broke.
No one grows up wanting to be broke.
Choices, always the choices. Sometimes we don't realize how lucky we are to have those choices.
brickboy240
04-12-16, 10:04
I think we are on the edge of seeing the advantage of going to college slip away for most young people. Most younger people would probably be better off if they just went to work or maybe went to a trade school for a trade like welding, plumbing or electrician's apprentice. Why pile on all of that debt only to go to work for McDonald's, Starbucks or Home Depot? Working in those places....hell...you'll never pay off all of those student loans.
I have a younger cousin that makes around 6 figures as an electrician and a/c repairman. He never set foot inside a college and spent the 4 years most kids spend piling up debt, training under a licensed electrician as an apprentice. The guy makes a very decent living without ever having student loan debt.
The days of going straight from high school to a 4 year university then having a job waiting when you graduate with a bachelor's degree are just about over. There are times when I think I would have been better off just skipping college and going to work. College wasted a lot of time and energy and money. Lots of BS classes with little real-world use and the expense of college in general was high then. I can imagine how high it must be today....whew!
It is no secret that the younger people coming out of high school today are going to have to totally re-think their job/career paths versus those their parents took. We also need to see the younger people re-take the trades and semi-skilled labor back from the immigrants. Jobs like landscaping, tile work, carpentry and construction. Attention young white people...you are NOT too good to swing a hammer or lay bricks! LOL
If they do not re-think their job pathways...they are doomed to a life of service industry jobs that will never pay well and will become more scarce as higher minimum wages are forced upon private business by big govt.
Averageman
04-12-16, 10:17
Minimum wage jobs are low paying because for the most part they require little or no skill set. They are usually an introduction for those entering adulthood to the world of work and learning to provide a service for an income.
Thinking that the Fast Food industry (or any other such similar wage employment) is a possible career field leaves you with few choices. You're either going to have a life of poverty or you are going to learn quickly how to do every job in the place and move in to a management position and eventually own a franchise.
If you like at those choices, Fast Food isn't unlike any other job. You can stay as long as you like on the dirty end of the stick or move forward with another job or move up within that one.
Incentivizing those who have neither the willpower or aptitude to do better for themselves only increases the cost of the service they provide and delays the inevitable "Up or Out" choice.
Of course they can always stay at $15.00 and hour until the economy and inflation makes that $15.00 the same value as the $7.00 an hour is now, but then we will just raise it to $30.00 if we follow this path and delude them in to thinking they are actually getting somewhere.
I'm always amazed that the energy spent moaning about their condition isn't spent in self betterment and actually doing more than the minimum. If you have the energy to complain, why not spend the same energy improving your skill set and education?
While you wont find these Mopes at your local Community College at night, you will find them at the Poles for Bernie and Hillary.
Sometimes you have to make hard choices and do something that not only you can do, but that is needed. If your art career isn't working out maybe you should suck it up and become a CPA, or a plumber, or carpenter. FFS, go work at Lowe's or Home Depot and work your way up to a zone manager or something, those guys make decent money.
I always wanted to be an international explorer but I couldn't figure out how to make money and support my family doing that so I moved past my Indiana Jones phase.
I've always been lucky enough to be able to do pretty much what I wanted, I've been at my present job over 30 years, and I'm the one that is chomping at the bit to make things better. I'm thankful that I was able to find what actualizes me and make an adequate living doing what I want.
Very little of what I've accomplished is on me, it is on my environment and my genetics - my parents were both way, way smart, hence I generally have tested out in the upper 140's, that is genetics; my first actual memory of my childhood is of my mother reading to me, at her 80th birthday I was asked to make remarks in front of the hundred or so people there, I told them the greatest gift my mother gave me was a love of reading, she cried. My dad and mom both made us kids earn our way, I wanted a new bike, dad told me 'mow the yard once a week until school is out without me telling you and I'll get you one.' I forgot one week, no bike. No big deal, we had a deal and I didn't keep it. You learn that way.
It wasn't me, it was my parents and my environment - I've always kept that in mind. My parents were responsible for what I became, I'm responsible for what I've done with it. Other folks haven't been so lucky.
An artificial number set by the federal government will not encourage people to strive and work harder, it will actually have the exact opposite affect. I am beginning to see the disconnect. The thing that should encourage people to work hard, sacrifice and strive is the desire to better themselves, advance and make more money. Do you really think raising the minimum wage to $15 hr will really cause all the food service workers that have been demonstrating across the country to work extra super hard going forward, or will it cause them to protest about the next free thing they want?
Two things, first of all, 15.00 is the number being thrown about, and the number that some states are moving toward. I think the minimum wage for full time workers needs to be somewhere between 12.50 and 13.00. Second is, job availability needs to be there. Right now that isn't the case. Most, not all, folks will try to better themselves if they see a way up.
FFS, go work at Lowe's or Home Depot and work your way up to a zone manager or something, those guys make decent money.
What is your definition of 'decent money?' I ask because I actually know some folks who are zone managers at Home Depot - they are at the bottom half of this range: $26,499-$42,187 ($13.24 to $21.09 hourly). None of them are happy with their jobs, best they can do in today's economy.
I'm always amazed that the energy spent moaning about their condition isn't spent in self betterment and actually doing more than the minimum.
Why does that amaze you? It sounds like the definition of a lifetime Min Wage employee to me. Lot of people are too lazy to better themselves, especially with the handouts available.
Why does that amaze you? It sounds like the definition of a lifetime Min Wage employee to me. Lot of people are too lazy to better themselves, especially with the handouts available.
Bingo. Lot easier to blame others, especially when it's en vogue to do so than look yourself in the mirror and say shit I screwed the pooch and I'm going to do XYZ to try and fix it. That's hard work. Why do that when some idiot sells you a dream of $15/HR, and you're too stupid to know prices will rise with the wage increase or shortly there after and you'll still be. Min wage guy who can't make beds meet. Then you'll whine and cry till they jack up the rate again.
I personally tip very well when it is earned, and very poorly when it is deserved.
The wife and I both worked in the industry through college to pay the bills and keep our stomachs full. I know how demanding it can be to work for a high volume restaurant, brewery or bar. It's tough work, on your feet on the go non-stop for 8+ hours and having to be nice to people who often treat you like trash.
I doubt the servers will get $15.00/HR- but if they do then no more tipping from me for sure- unless they REALLY go above and beyond and deserve a little extra.
If I were still in the industry I would not want the $15/HR wage, I made more with $2.00/HR + tips because I kicked ass at serving and worked my butt off for the customer and for my tips. Not everyone tipped me well, but people who valued good service, a friendly positive upbeat personality and a hard worker or used to be in the industry would reward the hard work with lots of dough.
Minimum wage is bullshit across the board and I'm sick of the "it's not a livable wage" BS. If someone will do the work for the $ let them. If you don't want to, then don't. Period.
brickboy240
04-12-16, 11:49
Yes, the higher minimum wage will do nothing to improve the performance of those receiving that hourly wage.
It will also cause restaurant owners to lay off some workers and probably raise food prices higher to compensate.
This, in the end, could very well lower or eliminate tipping in restaurants. In non-food industries, it will also end in less jobs and higher retail and end pricing on goods and services for the consumer. Consumers will respond by buying less of these goods and services....surprise!
Again, this is being implemented by those that have never owned a business, run a restaurant or balanced a company check book. Because of this...disaster is almost guaranteed.
Averageman
04-12-16, 12:27
Again, this is being implemented by those that have never owned a business, run a restaurant or balanced a company check book. Because of this...disaster is almost guaranteed.
So it is being implemented by Politicians?
So it is being implemented by Politicians?
Liberal politicians that only listen to whining and block optimism and success stories. They feed on other peoples misery. Listen to all there campaign speeches, its depressing. They talk about single moms who cant make it, family's living a 1 bedroom apartment, people that cant get ahead, people that work so hard for so little. But that is who they identify with: people who suffer and people who are miserable. Then you have Trump who talks about winning, and success. Politicians don't own businesses. But they do tell them owners how to run them.
No one grows up wanting to be broke.
True but some of us grew up believing the "lie" that we could be a "whatever" and somehow still manage a house, family and two cars. We understood we wouldn't have a mansion and a yacht, but we thought most occupations permitted middle class lifestyles.
My first wake up call was watching CHiPs and realizing ponch lived in a trailer. And even that stretched things a bit, I don't think his partner could have really have afforded that apartment. There was a time I thought "I only need what I need" and managed to pay rent, keep my crappy car running and buy food each month while teaching martial arts, working as a DJ or one of my other blueprints for poverty occupations.
But that was before people started reaching hard into my pocket for this or that. If you manage to climb the ladder a little bit you end up with people hanging by your pockets.
FWIW I'm still working on my dream to be a punk rocker.
Meh I ain't worried. Money comes, money goes.
I am happy if I can sit in Hell's waiting room like Beetlejuice and be able to say "Welp, at least I got to tell everybody they were arseholes"
FWIW I'm still working on my dream to be a punk rocker.
Meh I ain't worried. Money comes, money goes.
I am happy if I can sit in Hell's waiting room like Beetlejuice and be able to say "Welp, at least I got to tell everybody they were arseholes"
You need to check your feng shui Dude. My Brother married a great Vietnamese girl and her mom is very into feng shui. She does all kinds of odd stuff to their apartment to keep good health and fortune. I was told when I built my house a couple years ago that because you can open my front and back door and see through the house that money would flow in and right back out...... Yeah, sounds about right.
Anyway, my Sister in law has a Sister over your way in ATL. I can try to set you up with an appt to have your feng shui evaluated if you'd like.:cool:
I appreciate the offer but I'm still waiting to see if my Faustian deal with the devil works out.
I appreciate the offer but I'm still waiting to see if my Faustian deal with the devil works out.
Yeah but Lucifer can't throw down a manny/petty/foot massage for you like I can have arranged.
FWIW I'm still working on my dream to be a punk rocker.
Meh I ain't worried. Money comes, money goes.
I am happy if I can sit in Hell's waiting room like Beetlejuice and be able to say "Welp, at least I got to tell everybody they were arseholes"
Like someone said, I don't know where I'm going when I die, but I'm pretty sure I will know everyone when I get there.
There are very little jobs availible. They are being exported or being advertised in a way that lets them hire H1-B's instead. The Job market is the worst it has been since the great depression.
Bill needs to learn that his history and teaching degree mean jack shit. Would have been better off becoming a plumber, welder or any tradesman. If one goes to college, especially if they are taking out student loans, it behooves them to study in a field that can get a job in. Accounting, Finance, Information Systems, Engineering, Math, Hard Sciences , Nursing, Economics, ect.
Kill/Deport the illegals, end ALL foreign worker programs, Add a tariff to all imported goods to make manufacturing costs attractive here, Introduce mandatory conscripted Military service that is a requirement to vote- own a business- run for office & get government benefits, and wipe out any civilization that wants to get froggy and not tow the line (NK, Iran, SA, Iraq, AFG, VZ, ect). There I just solved all the problems in this country.
Agree with the first and second paragraphs. Unless one has a healthy trust fund, a degree in history, fine arts, etc makes absolutely no sense. Independently wealthy? Have at it; do whatever you want. Otherwise, learn a good marketable trade or get a marketable degree that has job security.
Your third paragraph, well you raise some good points while others are reminiscent of the Third Reich.
ramairthree
04-12-16, 21:49
I would honestly like a direct comparison about how bad we have it.
People spend years on unemployment and lifetimes on other benefits.
They used to starve.
If current jobs don't pay a living wage,
I would like an honest look at the average 1965 family,
How many cars, motorcycles they had,
If each kid had their own bedroom, how many square feet their house or apartment was,
How many had family that died of things they keep you alive for years if not decades with now,
How often they ate out at a restaurant, etc.
I suspect the 1965 family that had it so good with such great jobs and benefits compared with the average family in such hard times now had a very, very drab existence with one car, a little two bedroom house, two or three kids sharing the room, all sharing one bathroom, and went out to eat for an anniversary, a birthday or two.
And who would have guessed a History degree was not the pathway to riches.
Education has never paid shit, and History is useless unless you are top 1% and can get a teaching or research gig. Pre-law is useless unless you want to be a para-legal making $20/hr for the rest of your life and Business Admin was for those that couldn't hack the real business degrees. Look at history and see who has been historically employees even during a downturn in the economy. What jobs have the lowest jobless rates? I have yet to find someone with a degree in any engineering field who can't get a well paying job somewhere. Hell over half of the people with engineering degrees, don't even work in engineering. Wonder why that is?
Lets face it, the world does not accommodate what you like. If you suck at something , work harder. Math is the universal language and if you suck at it than you are in for a rough life. There was plenty of shit I sucked at and absolutely hated, but worked my ass off to pass because that is what is expected. College isn't even hard. If you actually apply yourself, you have to be damn near retarded to not get B's and above.
Yes there are lots of jobs outside of those desirable fields. However for the most part they pay shit, are super competitive or require some other social/education skillsets to make it work. For every tenured History teacher at the State U making $120K, there are 499 History majors working as bartenders, servers, or sweeping floors. Its almost impossible to NOT walk into a job starting out at $50-70K if you actually study something that the world has in demand. I layed out those very degrees in a previous post. If someone is going to go into tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt for an education, then it's ****ing moronic not to pick a job that will provide the ROI to make the juice worth the squeeze. Otherwise, just become a plumber, bust your ass, get your Master after 8 years and enjoy making $80-100K a year to pull permits and tell other shitheads what to do. All while having no student loans to pay back. However that requires actual work, not sitting around reading books all day and coming up with rhetorical arguments.
Spot on.
There are very little jobs availible. They are being exported or being advertised in a way that lets them hire H1-B's instead. The Job market is the worst it has been since the great depression.
Bill needs to learn that his history and teaching degree mean jack shit. Would have been better off becoming a plumber, welder or any tradesman. If one goes to college, especially if they are taking out student loans, it behooves them to study in a field that can get a job in. Accounting, Finance, Information Systems, Engineering, Math, Hard Sciences , Nursing, Economics, ect.
Kill/Deport the illegals, end ALL foreign worker programs, Add a tariff to all imported goods to make manufacturing costs attractive here, Introduce mandatory conscripted Military service that is a requirement to vote- own a business- run for office & get government benefits, and wipe out any civilization that wants to get froggy and not tow the line (NK, Iran, SA, Iraq, AFG, VZ, ect). There I just solved all the problems in this country.
Why does everyone always assume everyone will benefit from military service or that the military wil benefit from everyone's service?
I can think of hundreds of successful people who would be walking disasters in the military. There are thousands more that have absolutely no business being in the military and the people who want to be in the military and are doing well shouldn't have to serve with or depend upon those who are just going to make everything worse.
More importantly, mandatory ANYTHING is not freedom. Perhaps you need to refresh up on your copy of the Constitution. Requiring people to join the military is a socialism / communist thing and last I checked, we weren't supposed to be either.
And given our leadership lately, I wouldn't want to be in the military. How would you like to be a guy who fought in Mosul only to see it lost to ISIS because Obama tried to talk tough in Syria? How would you like to be one of those "advisers" sent to rescue hostages from ISIS only to discover that most of the people you freed were former members of ISIS who just weren't radical enough?
How would you like for your mandatory service to be during 1993 under Clinton and find yourself in Mogadishu because dipshits like Boutros Boutros-Ghali were engaged in a little bit of nation building and believed he could work with guys like Siad Barre if a US led coalition force got rid of the competition. Yeah I'd love to be forced to join the military and go play in that bullshit parade.
Government is never a solution
Why does everyone always assume everyone will benefit from military service or that the military wil benefit from everyone's service?
I can think of hundreds of successful people who would be walking disasters in the military. There are thousands more that have absolutely no business being in the military and the people who want to be in the military and are doing well shouldn't have to serve with or depend upon those who are just going to make everything worse.
More importantly, mandatory ANYTHING is not freedom. Perhaps you need to refresh up on your copy of the Constitution. Requiring people to join the military is a socialism / communist thing and last I checked, we weren't supposed to be either.
And given our leadership lately, I wouldn't want to be in the military. How would you like to be a guy who fought in Mosul only to see it lost to ISIS because Obama tried to talk tough in Syria? How would you like to be one of those "advisers" sent to rescue hostages from ISIS only to discover that most of the people you freed were former members of ISIS who just weren't radical enough?
How would you like for your mandatory service to be during 1993 under Clinton and find yourself in Mogadishu because dipshits like Boutros Boutros-Ghali were engaged in a little bit of nation building and believed he could work with guys like Siad Barre if a US led coalition force got rid of the competition. Yeah I'd love to be forced to join the military and go play in that bullshit parade.
Thank you. I do not know a single retired (guys that did 20 plus years) NCO or officer that wants mandatory service. They had enough issues dealing with the multitudes of twits that volunteered. I tried to join, I wanted to serve and fly more than anything in the world at that time. Two years into ROTC I lost my scholarship and my dream due to a bout of hay fever/allergies in 1989. I went on the have a beautiful family, volunteered as a firefighter and EMT for over a decade, and built a business that supports over a dozen families besides my own.
It flat pisses me off that military service is held up by many as the only way to prove your worth as a citizen. Only 1/3 of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence served in the militia during the Revolutionary War. Don't tell me that my patriotism and love of this country is somehow bound by military service.
That said, I support those that have served honorably in the military and continue to be honorable after leaving the military, one hundred percent.
I would honestly like a direct comparison about how bad we have it.
People spend years on unemployment and lifetimes on other benefits.
They used to starve.
If current jobs don't pay a living wage,
I would like an honest look at the average 1965 family,
How many cars, motorcycles they had,
If each kid had their own bedroom, how many square feet their house or apartment was,
How many had family that died of things they keep you alive for years if not decades with now,
How often they ate out at a restaurant, etc.
I suspect the 1965 family that had it so good with such great jobs and benefits compared with the average family in such hard times now had a very, very drab existence with one car, a little two bedroom house, two or three kids sharing the room, all sharing one bathroom, and went out to eat for an anniversary, a birthday or two.
And who would have guessed a History degree was not the pathway to riches.
Are you comparing 1965 to present day? If so, you forgot a lot of factors. One big one is credit. In 1965, the average American paid cash for there house, cars, college, clothes and only the super rich had credit cards which had to be "paid in full" an the end of each billing cycle. A man could support his family of 4 on his salary alone, that includes providing a home, car, clothes, food and have money left over at the end of each month. In perspective, the price of goods and services were higher relatively speaking in 1965 then today considering all goods were manufactured in the US. The idea of having things made overseas was to make it "cheaper" and more competitive. Competition is what drove the price up on goods and services. And having access to astronomical amount of credit in relation to a persons income is what caused inflation to raise out of control. Most people today do not have $500 in there wallet, but you know what, most people have a few pieces of plastic in there wallet that will give them "buying power" up to $15,000-$20,000 with nothing more than a signature. In 1965, the man of the house would not buy a 4 bedroom/5 bathroom house for $400k and finance it for 30 years paying nearly triple the original cost of the house. And then finance a brand new car he couldn't afford and make payments for 5-7 years. If the USA went back to a "cash" system, you would see the price of everything go back to 1965ish prices. Its only because you have access to a line of credit that the price of everything goes up and when the price of everything goes up, jobs get moved to communist China!
A lot of older people will look you directly in the face and tell you that they were poor. They may have had a small house and only 1 car but they were never in debt! NEVER! Those older people are the last generation that will die free men.
Thank you. I do not know a single retired (guys that did 20 plus years) NCO or officer that wants mandatory service. They had enough issues dealing with the multitudes of twits that volunteered. I tried to join, I wanted to serve and fly more than anything in the world at that time. Two years into ROTC I lost my scholarship and my dream due to a bout of hay fever/allergies in 1989. I went on the have a beautiful family, volunteered as a firefighter and EMT for over a decade, and built a business that supports over a dozen families besides my own.
It flat pisses me off that military service is held up by many as the only way to prove your worth as a citizen. Only 1/3 of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence served in the militia during the Revolutionary War. Don't tell me that my patriotism and love of this country is somehow bound by military service.
That said, I support those that have served honorably in the military and continue to be honorable after leaving the military, one hundred percent.
Same here. I know mostly military and former military types and I don't think any of them want compulsory service. As you said, it's hard enough to get some of the tards that WANT TO BE THERE up to speed. We saddled our guys in Vietnam with a bunch of protesting hippies and the most action you could depend on them for was to roll a grenade in your tent when nobody is looking. I don't think there were too many draftees who completely changed their beliefs and values once they got over there and started pulling their weight, most of them simply became a drag on everyone else and the primary contribution seems to have been making sure illicit drugs were available.
And how about PFC Bill Gates? Instead of using his mind and talents to revolutionize the computer industry, let's have him do two years in some Engineering unit accomplishing jack and shit.
I think the only time we should do mandatory service is if we are actually being invaded, and even then I'm not sure I want it because we have a lot of people who would undermine things to the best of their ability if given the chance.
ramairthree
04-13-16, 10:21
Are you comparing 1965 to present day? If so, you forgot a lot of factors. One big one is credit. In 1965, the average American paid cash for there house, cars, college, clothes and only the super rich had credit cards which had to be "paid in full" an the end of each billing cycle. A man could support his family of 4 on his salary alone, that includes providing a home, car, clothes, food and have money left over at the end of each month. In perspective, the price of goods and services were higher relatively speaking in 1965 then today considering all goods were manufactured in the US. The idea of having things made overseas was to make it "cheaper" and more competitive. Competition is what drove the price up on goods and services. And having access to astronomical amount of credit in relation to a persons income is what caused inflation to raise out of control. Most people today do not have $500 in there wallet, but you know what, most people have a few pieces of plastic in there wallet that will give them "buying power" up to $15,000-$20,000 with nothing more than a signature. In 1965, the man of the house would not buy a 4 bedroom/5 bathroom house for $400k and finance it for 30 years paying nearly triple the original cost of the house. And then finance a brand new car he couldn't afford and make payments for 5-7 years. If the USA went back to a "cash" system, you would see the price of everything go back to 1965ish prices. Its only because you have access to a line of credit that the price of everything goes up and when the price of everything goes up, jobs get moved to communist China!
A lot of older people will look you directly in the face and tell you that they were poor. They may have had a small house and only 1 car but they were never in debt! NEVER! Those older people are the last generation that will die free men.
I am not sure if you are refuting or supporting my point.
My point is,
People are trying to maintain lifestyles with huge homes, multiple vehicles, eating out all the time, trips to vegas, Disney world vacations, cruises, etc.
And yes,
Credit was not just handed out to everyone like it is now.
And families did not go to double income usually.
And they likely had no ER to run to in the middle of the night.
Ya'll aren't going to like my answer, but the reality is that in some ways we are better off today, and in others we are worse off.
You can pick and choose which features to put in which category.
Ya'll aren't going to like my answer, but the reality is that is some ways we are better off today, and in others we are worse off.
You can pick and choose which features to put in which category.
"I bought tickets to the Revolution and I cheered when the statues fell."
I am not sure if you are refuting or supporting my point.
My point is,
People are trying to maintain lifestyles with huge homes, multiple vehicles, eating out all the time, trips to vegas, Disney world vacations, cruises, etc.
And yes,
Credit was not just handed out to everyone like it is now.
And families did not go to double income usually.
And they likely had no ER to run to in the middle of the night.
I agree with you.
"I bought tickets to the Revolution and I cheered when the statues fell."
Hopefully not Stevie Ray's statue on Town Lake (now called Lady Bird Lake):
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=stevie+ray+vaughan+statue
Hopefully not Stevie Ray's statue on Town Lake (now called Lady Bird Lake):
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=stevie+ray+vaughan+statue
It's from a song where a guy reflects on his youth about the October revolution and then as he is older, he is glad to see it all come down.
Like when Billy Joel said the good old days weren't all so good
Averageman
04-13-16, 16:23
You know if people looked at credit like it was potential slavery, (perhaps it really is) or a loaded Gun (which it might as well be) we would have people screaming for us to educate our Children in the public schools as to how to use, not abuse credit.
Being an idiot, not know basic book keeping, unable to understand budgeting makes a lot of people rich on the backs of many young people just starting out in life.
As it is, you had better be teaching your kids at home about it.
When government mandates wage, and price controls nothing good happens. Business must make a profit or go away. The result of mandatory high minimum wage will result in less jobs, and businesses will figure out a way to reduce staff or go out of business. It is a liberal/progressive/utopian pipe dream, and makes NO economic sense. Wages and prices need to be based ON THE MARKETPLACE.
These people think that this socialist crap means everyone gets issued iPads, a cozy home, a Prius, free WiFi, etc.
Nope.
When government mandates wage, and price controls nothing good happens. Business must make a profit or go away. The result of mandatory high minimum wage will result in less jobs, and businesses will figure out a way to reduce staff or go out of business. It is a liberal/progressive/utopian pipe dream, and makes NO economic sense. Wages and prices need to be based ON THE MARKETPLACE.
Yep.
Operational costs may not exceed income.
If I sell guns too low my income does not meet operational costs and I'm out of business.
If I sell guns too high and don't get enough sales my income does not meet operational costs and I'm out of business.
Number of employees, rate of pay and related costs are operational expenses.
I'd rather make $11 an hour and have a job than make $15 a hour and be let go because they cannot afford to keep me on. Furthermore, if somebody is worth $15 an hour because they directly result in additional income when compared to other employees, they will be making $15 an hour so they don't go elsewhere.
If I had a salesman who came in and doubled profits, I would pay him as much as I could reasonable afford to pay him. If he tripled profits next year, I would pay him accordingly. But no way I'm going to pay somebody who doesn't do a damn thing except show up and be physically present any more than I have to. And if I need to cut employees, that person will be the first to go.
These people think that this socialist crap means everyone gets issued iPads, a cozy home, a Prius, free WiFi, etc.
Nope.
Yep. They go from $12 to $15 an hour and the government takes an additional $2 an hour from your check.
Ima just leave this here...
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160414/7d7749b4423c7657ad467cdf0e370f6c.jpg
Operational costs may not exceed income.
If I sell guns too low my income does not meet operational costs and I'm out of business.
If I sell guns too high and don't get enough sales my income does not meet operational costs and I'm out of business.
Number of employees, rate of pay and related costs are operational expenses.
I'd rather make $11 an hour and have a job than make $15 a hour and be let go because they cannot afford to keep me on. Furthermore, if somebody is worth $15 an hour because they directly result in additional income when compared to other employees, they will be making $15 an hour so they don't go elsewhere.
If I had a salesman who came in and doubled profits, I would pay him as much as I could reasonable afford to pay him. If he tripled profits next year, I would pay him accordingly. But no way I'm going to pay somebody who doesn't do a damn thing except show up and be physically present any more than I have to. And if I need to cut employees, that person will be the first to go.
Pretty well sums up how to run a business. No B-school required!
Not sure if it has been mentioned, but the down stream effect is the secret handshake Dems gives unions by raising minimum wage. It's not about the poor or living wages. Minimum wage is the baseline to negotiate all other wages up the chain. The guy making $30/hr just got a raise too.
Moose-Knuckle
04-14-16, 00:58
You know if people looked at credit like it was potential slavery, (perhaps it really is) or a loaded Gun (which it might as well be) we would have people screaming for us to educate our Children in the public schools as to how to use, not abuse credit.
Being an idiot, not know basic book keeping, unable to understand budgeting makes a lot of people rich on the backs of many young people just starting out in life.
As it is, you had better be teaching your kids at home about it.
Every high school senior should have to watch this film twice before they can walk across the stage . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgqG3ITMv1Q
You know if people looked at credit like it was potential slavery, (perhaps it really is) or a loaded Gun (which it might as well be) we would have people screaming for us to educate our Children in the public schools as to how to use, not abuse credit.
Being an idiot, not know basic book keeping, unable to understand budgeting makes a lot of people rich on the backs of many young people just starting out in life.
As it is, you had better be teaching your kids at home about it.
in 1991 when I was a sophomore in college there was a kid with a part time job handing out credit card applications for Citi Bank. When he knocked on my dorm room door I was not really interested. He had a box of BIG chocolate bars and gave one to everyone who filled out an application. Yup I fell for the chocolate bar trick. That card is in my wallet today with a zero balance. I think it had a very low credit limit, $250 if I remember. It helped having it when I was responsible.
Whiskey_Bravo
04-14-16, 08:39
Yep.
Operational costs may not exceed income.
If I sell guns too low my income does not meet operational costs and I'm out of business.
If I sell guns too high and don't get enough sales my income does not meet operational costs and I'm out of business.
Number of employees, rate of pay and related costs are operational expenses.
I'd rather make $11 an hour and have a job than make $15 a hour and be let go because they cannot afford to keep me on. Furthermore, if somebody is worth $15 an hour because they directly result in additional income when compared to other employees, they will be making $15 an hour so they don't go elsewhere.
If I had a salesman who came in and doubled profits, I would pay him as much as I could reasonable afford to pay him. If he tripled profits next year, I would pay him accordingly. But no way I'm going to pay somebody who doesn't do a damn thing except show up and be physically present any more than I have to. And if I need to cut employees, that person will be the first to go.
That's some MBA level shit right there.
Averageman
04-14-16, 09:04
in 1991 when I was a sophomore in college there was a kid with a part time job handing out credit card applications for Citi Bank. When he knocked on my dorm room door I was not really interested. He had a box of BIG chocolate bars and gave one to everyone who filled out an application. Yup I fell for the chocolate bar trick. That card is in my wallet today with a zero balance. I think it had a very low credit limit, $250 if I remember. It helped having it when I was responsible.
I would guess that more than 50% of those who signed up for the same card, at the same time haven't been so responsible.
We don't need to take responsibility for them, but if they go bankrupt we as consumers do in a way that we can't directly see. To no small degree it is a case of greed or a lack of impulse control, I don't think we can fix that, nor do I want "Big Brother" to get in on the game. What I would like to see is some basic home and personal finance classes required for Graduation for every High School Senior, perhaps another class covering Student Loans for those moving on with their education.
I had a neighbor who had every imaginable "thing" he could have ever want. Tools, new Golf Clubs, Cars, Trucks, Giant TV's with every imaginable cable station available, a Toy Car Collection with at least 100 replica "classic cars". One day he explained to me his plan to declare Bankruptcy and that this would be his second time at it. He was explaining the scam he was about to run before he filed.
This isn't the only Guy I know who has done this, it sickens me and goes against every value instilled in me by my Parents. I just don't know how people can do this.
brickboy240
04-14-16, 10:06
Umm, nope Whisky Bravo.
The MBAs I worked around back when I was in corporate America never used that kind of common sense.
(God...I do NOT miss corporate America...not one bit)
LOL
If they are going to do $15/hr, then the absolute min requirement should be a high school diploma .
Don't need to give them more reason to drop out.
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Crow Hunter
04-14-16, 12:30
in 1991 when I was a sophomore in college there was a kid with a part time job handing out credit card applications for Citi Bank. When he knocked on my dorm room door I was not really interested. He had a box of BIG chocolate bars and gave one to everyone who filled out an application. Yup I fell for the chocolate bar trick. That card is in my wallet today with a zero balance. I think it had a very low credit limit, $250 if I remember. It helped having it when I was responsible.
I was a couple years later (1993) and mine was with AT&T and I think I got a T-shirt, I don't remember for sure. My limit was $250 also. It was very useful for buying books and other school things periodically.
However, I was also raised knowing about money and taught how to handle it just like it was a loaded gun;).
LowSpeed_HighDrag
04-14-16, 23:57
Tipping is a sore subject (right there with religion and politics) between myself and my mother in law. I believe a tip is earned, based off of certain factors met during the service. If all factors have been met, and the bill was reasonable, I will tip 20%. If you have not impressed me, you will receive less, sometimes even 0. If you did a good job, but the dinner for two of us was $300 (say Sage at Aria), you will get a reasonable tip but certainly not 20% of the total.
My MIL, however, will tip 20% plus simply because being wait staff is "hard". That I do not dispute, but my wife is a full time kindergarten teacher and I am a former Marine and a cop. No one tips us, and our jobs are "hard" too.
Tipping is a sore subject (right there with religion and politics) between myself and my mother in law. I believe a tip is earned, based off of certain factors met during the service. If all factors have been met, and the bill was reasonable, I will tip 20%. If you have not impressed me, you will receive less, sometimes even 0. If you did a good job, but the dinner for two of us was $300 (say Sage at Aria), you will get a reasonable tip but certainly not 20% of the total.
My MIL, however, will tip 20% plus simply because being wait staff is "hard". That I do not dispute, but my wife is a full time kindergarten teacher and I am a former Marine and a cop. No one tips us, and our jobs are "hard" too.
I hear ya. I also have a problem with percentage based tips.
If a table of four ladies orders drinks and dinner salads they are pretty much the same amount of work as a table of four guys who order drinks and steaks. Why should the guys who ordered more expensive meals cough up two or three times as much for a tip as the salad ladies?
Now I understand the idea that a server will bust their ass a little bit more for the guy who ordered the premium Ribeye and Lobster tail combo and when somebody drops that kind of coin they expect more than to just have their meal "dropped off" but again it's not that much additional "actual work" than bringing the Fried Chicken special.
I laugh every time I see somebody leave a $100 tip on a $500 check at some upscale steak house. Then we go to the local pizzeria and some girl manages twice the amount of tables, does three times the amount of work making sure everyone is good to go and is lucky to get $5 on a $25 check.
Statistically, there is more work with higher cost meals, and other factors.
Dinner require salads, more check-backs, more refils, time ringing in the order, and they are ussually there longer. Your also ussually paying for better service at higher end restaurants, and they are ussually in places with higher cost of living. Making $10/hr at your local diner is not the same as making $10/hr in downtown miami.
There are exceptions, but it evens out, generally. I've word mid and low end restaurants in the same area. One you had to handle more tables with smaller tips due to cost, but at the end of the day I made similar amounts.
There's a lot of variability in what the server has to do behind the scenes that you may not see, and it varies by restaurant.
Low end restaurant generally have more floor work so it looks like they are doing more, but they may not be.
Tipping is a sore subject (right there with religion and politics) between myself and my mother in law. I believe a tip is earned, based off of certain factors met during the service. If all factors have been met, and the bill was reasonable, I will tip 20%. If you have not impressed me, you will receive less, sometimes even 0. If you did a good job, but the dinner for two of us was $300 (say Sage at Aria), you will get a reasonable tip but certainly not 20% of the total.
My MIL, however, will tip 20% plus simply because being wait staff is "hard". That I do not dispute, but my wife is a full time kindergarten teacher and I am a former Marine and a cop. No one tips us, and our jobs are "hard" too.
Well, you get performance based pay from your emoloyer. Servers get it from the customers. You also don't make $4.00 an hour before tips. You can't really compare the two.
Other service jobs get tipped also because it's based on custoner satisfaction, like tour guides and taxis.
Whiskey_Bravo
04-15-16, 09:51
Umm, nope Whisky Bravo.
The MBAs I worked around back when I was in corporate America never used that kind of common sense.
(God...I do NOT miss corporate America...not one bit)
LOL
Maybe my sarcasm didn't shine through enough on my post.
brickboy240
04-15-16, 10:19
Ooops!
I guess I posted long before coffee....sorry!
LowSpeed_HighDrag
04-15-16, 12:25
Well, you get performance based pay from your emoloyer. Servers get it from the customers. You also don't make $4.00 an hour before tips. You can't really compare the two.
Other service jobs get tipped also because it's based on custoner satisfaction, like tour guides and taxis.
I can't think of a single other occupation that expects 20% of what you paid their employed to be placed into their own pockets. I respect hard workers, and most restaurant staff are just that, but they have NO right to MORE of my money.
Statistically, there is more work with higher cost meals, and other factors.
Nonsense. I worked in restaurants for a decade, including waiting tables, and plenty of 5 star places. It is no harder to deliver a plate of lobster tails than it is to deliver a plate of fried chicken. And quite honestly, the old ladies eating chef salads are usually the biggest pain in the ass about being fussed over.
Well, you get performance based pay from your emoloyer. Servers get it from the customers. You also don't make $4.00 an hour before tips. You can't really compare the two.
Other service jobs get tipped also because it's based on custoner satisfaction, like tour guides and taxis.
My tip from my employer is base on a number of thing chiefly being my performance relative to those in my group. If I work hard and do better than my peers I get more $$ at the end of the year. That's how I tip. Do a good job and get a good tip. Forget to bring me my drinks, bring me cold food, wrong food and what not and you're not going to get much if anything. It's not rocket science. Not sure what we want to complicate things. As for the whole it's hard work for little money. Welcome to life. My wife is a teacher. Works 14 HR days during the week plus weekend hours. Has to do all her "training" during the summer so not a lot of free time to get a second job. If you break it down she makes below $12/HR. No tips, just a**hole parents who should never have been allowed to have sex much less kids in her face.
All this min wage retardo-fest ignores the basic premise that these jobs are not supposed to be careers and put food on the family table jobs. The whole argument for living wages and all that tripe is a distraction from the real issue. WE DONT HAVE ENOUGH QUALITY JOBS IN THE COUNTRY!!! Our elected officials (both sides of the isle) at the behest of their paymasters have squandered our manufacturing base, our technical trades, and a high number of middle class jobs for the benefit of an elite few stock holders. That's the problem not minimum wage.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
04-15-16, 15:16
My tip from my employer is base on a number of thing chiefly being my performance relative to those in my group. If I work hard and do better than my peers I get more $$ at the end of the year. That's how I tip. Do a good job and get a good tip. Forget to bring me my drinks, bring me cold food, wrong food and what not and you're not going to get much if anything. It's not rocket science. Not sure what we want to complicate things. As for the whole it's hard work for little money. Welcome to life. My wife is a teacher. Works 14 HR days during the week plus weekend hours. Has to do all her "training" during the summer so not a lot of free time to get a second job. If you break it down she makes below $12/HR. No tips, just a**hole parents who should never have been allowed to have sex much less kids in her face.
All this min wage retardo-fest ignores the basic premise that these jobs are not supposed to be careers and put food on the family table jobs. The whole argument for living wages and all that tripe is a distraction from the real issue. WE DONT HAVE ENOUGH QUALITY JOBS IN THE COUNTRY!!! Our elected officials (both sides of the isle) at the behest of their paymasters have squandered our manufacturing base, our technical trades, and a high number of middle class jobs for the benefit of an elite few stock holders. That's the problem not minimum wage.
I couldn't agree more!
Averageman
04-15-16, 15:17
Nonsense. I worked in restaurants for a decade, including waiting tables, and plenty of 5 star places. It is no harder to deliver a plate of lobster tails than it is to deliver a plate of fried chicken. And quite honestly, the old ladies eating chef salads are usually the biggest pain in the ass about being fussed over.
This has been my observation also.
I would guess that the higher end places have the pick of the best staff available in the area. If I go out and drop two hundred on a good meal with all of the trimmings, the guy is likely to get 40-50 bucks.
He gets that not because of the meal or the price, these guys are usually very polished, very professional and are looking to give you a dining experience rather than the cold blue plate special with a single greasy spoon for flat wear.
The whole argument for living wages and all that tripe is a distraction from the real issue. WE DONT HAVE ENOUGH QUALITY JOBS IN THE COUNTRY!!! Our elected officials (both sides of the isle) at the behest of their paymasters have squandered our manufacturing base, our technical trades, and a high number of middle class jobs for the benefit of an elite few stock holders. That's the problem not minimum wage.
In a nutshell. Preach it, teach it!
All this min wage retardo-fest ignores the basic premise that these jobs are not supposed to be careers and put food on the family table jobs. The whole argument for living wages and all that tripe is a distraction from the real issue. WE DONT HAVE ENOUGH QUALITY JOBS IN THE COUNTRY!!! Our elected officials (both sides of the isle) at the behest of their paymasters have squandered our manufacturing base, our technical trades, and a high number of middle class jobs for the benefit of an elite few stock holders. That's the problem not minimum wage.
And that is the heart of the issue.
Here is something I picked up while dining in downtown Seattle.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/PQPhXbcRZhfDxXytl4nS5b73zb08BtDeeuySD59N-WCliioJAfWacOdZ3vJik6uZIL7OM4qteocjiHPCPi8ABHhbmuTrR9Pv4557Q03Mnp3vGcs2OoRPa3BaXA0FVTmm2JC95UtELK5Z2oJdRhqrLhU-68vnxaprcl9HhiSRHQSuSS9JX4YPphnS6qU45zZy5ZzE3T3f7q1P8Isic8TuHEBkbFGNaIHD1hkPU_31pb99zZWXnzHnlKBCM5kTFuW4Rn01VOsCl3MQ8QSdzFJwnSUCxqXwEfKId4kdVutMkgXK9i9iSJSWKaGkkFEx2dTvIo8INGpW1sFF1UEWqJWaZHFosOQreI80Hdd3l_GImcO1PoSKnwLFAGPqbLVS-JNsgvWLW4KDi36KlOsmyUihDS6WUUt4YwPbmy-x4W_iZB9kTkP819kXv5SCU7NxlBilf4Q9WUM8b5b6C28yPIIgMeDxBZWXK1LSIwHuF7Oh2lbzHcfXyWTvhqA6dBULV9vKHH-AJtrBZR8RrRQczH_JFtYGMtvfAFNbcd_j0UBnvmsc_VvqLFR8E8FnbgOzmHCYnkmt9HMRWNAbup5GL6G-EjYDkQ=w1024-h768-no
So they tack on 20% for you ?
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Here is something I picked up while dining in downtown Seattle.
$9 for a root beer float, $8.50 for ice cream, LOL!
So they tack on 20% for you ?
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Yep. You get no choice in the matter.
$9 for a root beer float, $8.50 for ice cream, LOL!
Yeah it is crazy expensive prices in downtown.
Yep. You get no choice in the matter.
Yeah you do. Refuse to pay it.
ColtSeavers
06-12-16, 17:03
Yeah you do. Refuse to patron that business.
FIFY.
I will happily stop tipping as a standard should minimum wages rise and therefore raise prices of menu items. I will also still happily tip for truly exemplary service.
Right now I tip between 10~15% standard with people going well above and beyong getting 18~20%.
The_War_Wagon
06-12-16, 18:47
I know I'll stop tipping.
Kinda hard to tip in a restaurant, I can't AFFORD to eat in! :fie:
Eurodriver
06-12-16, 18:56
What do you guys do if you go to a place and your order is ~$10?
Here is something I picked up while dining in downtown Seattle.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/PQPhXbcRZhfDxXytl4nS5b73zb08BtDeeuySD59N-WCliioJAfWacOdZ3vJik6uZIL7OM4qteocjiHPCPi8ABHhbmuTrR9Pv4557Q03Mnp3vGcs2OoRPa3BaXA0FVTmm2JC95UtELK5Z2oJdRhqrLhU-68vnxaprcl9HhiSRHQSuSS9JX4YPphnS6qU45zZy5ZzE3T3f7q1P8Isic8TuHEBkbFGNaIHD1hkPU_31pb99zZWXnzHnlKBCM5kTFuW4Rn01VOsCl3MQ8QSdzFJwnSUCxqXwEfKId4kdVutMkgXK9i9iSJSWKaGkkFEx2dTvIo8INGpW1sFF1UEWqJWaZHFosOQreI80Hdd3l_GImcO1PoSKnwLFAGPqbLVS-JNsgvWLW4KDi36KlOsmyUihDS6WUUt4YwPbmy-x4W_iZB9kTkP819kXv5SCU7NxlBilf4Q9WUM8b5b6C28yPIIgMeDxBZWXK1LSIwHuF7Oh2lbzHcfXyWTvhqA6dBULV9vKHH-AJtrBZR8RrRQczH_JFtYGMtvfAFNbcd_j0UBnvmsc_VvqLFR8E8FnbgOzmHCYnkmt9HMRWNAbup5GL6G-EjYDkQ=w1024-h768-no
I would got up, left, and told the manager why on the way out.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
Yeah, thanks, no.
A tip is me being nice, it is not a requirement.
Aside from a localish Mexican joint or two, I don't eat out anymore.
What do you guys do if you go to a place and your order is ~$10?
Not sure how many sit down restaurants you can get away with that low a bill these days, but if the service was too the guy gets $3-4. If the service sucks he get $0. Just like every other restaurant I patronize.
I honestly don't think tipping will be an issue of the $15/HR wages start becoming wide spread. Prices will soar or businesses will close. Either way there won't be too many people eating out to do much tipping n
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