View Full Version : What is the allure of drop-in cassette triggers?
titsonritz
04-11-16, 19:16
I don't get it. Is it a simplicity thing for people that don't know how to install a separate trigger/hammer/disconnector? Is they some other advantage with them I am missing or is it just another way to skin a cat?
People, myself included believe its probably tuned and tested and more likely to have a higher quality control versus typical LPK triggers, however, I am just fine with the milspec trigger and can install my pins just fine! Of course some believe its the pinnacle of a fully modded rifle and want one more specific part to name when pontificating at the range.
You talking about the "self-contained" units like the Wilson or something like the Geissele? If it's the latter you must not own one! ;)
You talking about the "self-contained" units like the Wilson or something like the Geissele? If it's the latter you must not own one! ;)
I belive he is talking about cassette style trigger packs
As easy as it is to install a "normal" trigger group, i don't think they really qualify as "drop in"
I've been 'exposed' to the idea that the trigger will still function even if the lower or pins fail, by people who adhere strictly to using Timney triggers in their ARs over G triggers.
I find the idea dubious, poorly reasoned and disappointingly impractical.
The best drop in trigger will always be better than the best non drop in trigger.
titsonritz
04-11-16, 21:04
You talking about the "self-contained" units like the Wilson or something like the Geissele? If it's the latter you must not own one! ;)
I do own Geissele triggers.
I belive he is talking about cassette style trigger packs
As easy as it is to install a "normal" trigger group, i don't think they really qualify as "drop in"
That is correct, I clarified the OP.
What again makes the Rise different from the G triggers? Dont take that as a smartass, I really dont understand the mechanics of it that well.
tigershilone
04-11-16, 21:49
So they have a convenient place for a popped primer to fall into and jam in place so it cannot get at other internal components in the rifle. And since most of the cassette style triggers I've seen are sealed, you can go buy another one to replace it.
So they have a convenient place for a popped primer to fall into and jam in place so it cannot get at other internal components in the rifle. And since most of the cassette style triggers I've seen are sealed, you can go buy another one to replace it.
Frim experience I take it?
I think assuming/wondering if a person can't install a mil-spec trigger as being the reason for using a drop in is a little niave IMO. Maybe that's some people's reason for using them, I don't know, for me that thought has never entered my mind.
I have all different types of triggers, from ALG to Geissele to CMC, and while there is certainly nothing wrong with ALG or Geissele's there's nothing wrong with CMC either. I think they are a very nice smooth trigger that has been proven as much as others have. CMC has stated that they have numerous triggers out there that have over 200k on them. That's pretty solid if you ask me. I don't have any experience with other drop in triggers manufacturers though.
I love my Geissele's as much as my CMC, they are both very nice triggers.
It's all about feel of the trigger not how they are installed, that's why I use them. At least that's my take on it. Then again, I'm not one who has to have everything 100% "mil-spec" either.
So to answer your second question, YES, it is just another way to skin a cat.
The best drop in trigger will always be better than the best non drop in trigger.
OK, I'm pretty sure most would hold Geissele as the best of the non drop in triggers. I'm not all that familiar with drop in triggers for ARs. What's out there that's better than the various G triggers?
OP, interesting question. I was reading the thread about having to use KNS pins with some of the drop ins and was wondering what the attraction was. Installing a Geissele, ALG, or other mil spec really isn't that hard.
I don't get it. Is it a simplicity thing for people that don't know how to install a separate trigger/hammer/disconnector? Is they some other advantage with them I am missing or is it just another way to skin a cat?
Ease of manufacture and ease of adjustment without modification to the lower...
The installation has been a two edged sword. While easier to install some require special pins.
.46caliber
04-12-16, 07:02
My first thought is that it saves the manufacturer some hassle. How many threads have we seen where someone says "I just got this brand new trigger and it sucks! It won't function." Then after a dozen posts, we finally find the OP had installed a spring incorrectly.
Gunnar da Wolf
04-12-16, 13:42
If memory serves, and sometimes it does. Early "match" triggers required fitting in some way, file work or small screws, with the occasional "bRRRAPP!" of burst fire resulting. Happened far less than people thought but the spectre of black helicopters descending overhead and ATF agents fast roping onto the range to carry away the offending party left most folks cold to the idea of installing triggers. The cassette triggers appeared on the scene as a no (real) gunsmithing route to a better trigger.
In the last ten or fifteen years manufacturing practices and understanding of the geometry of the AR action has resulted in better drop in triggers like Geisselle and other accessory makers now offer with little danger of NFA grade excitement as long as quality parts are being used.
they are very useful when installing into a lower with less-than-perfect pin hole alignment.
this problem can be found on cheaper/plastic/80%/older/seconds/etc receivers that don't have top-tier tolerances or quality.
sure wish we had them back in the 70's and 80's when SWG was about the only maker of stripped aftermarket lowers....
they are very useful when installing into a lower with less-than-perfect pin hole alignment.
Why? Do the cassettes have adjustable pin holes independent of the trigger?
I don't see much of a need to design your trigger to drop in unless your trigger design required a change to pin locations for the trigger, hammer or some other apparatus that makes your trigger work. I also fail to see how selling your triggers assembled and adjusted makes them easier to manufacture.
no, of course the pins don't adjust.
with traditional individual parts, if pins hole aren't perfectly parallel then the engaging surfaces end up mismatched. (i remember trying to re-grind surfaces to adjust for this. was near impossible to get a good trigger. and then hardened surfaces are no longer hardened.)
OTOH, with modular units the parts are held in perfect alignment and the pins simply hold the whole unit within the lower.
no, of course the pins don't adjust.
with traditional individual parts, if pins hole aren't perfectly parallel then the engaging surfaces end up mismatched. (i remember trying to re-grind surfaces to adjust for this. was near impossible to get a good trigger. and then hardened surfaces are no longer hardened.)
OTOH, with modular units the parts are held in perfect alignment and the pins simply hold the whole unit within the lower.
If the pin holes aren't perfectly parallel or otherwise aligned, what tolerances exist in the drop in unit to account for this? Wouldn't you have a harder time installing a drop-in unit since you are now bound to the perfectly parallel and aligned holes in it's plates? Are you installing just one pin?
my experience has been that the poor tolerances i've described still allowed everything to function/fire (and to retain the parts and both pins), but were so imprecise that trigger/sear engagements was never good enough for a quality trigger job.
the particular company i mentioned with this problem cranked out lots of complete firearms with very heavy gritty triggers that would function, more or less. some were far worse than others. i remember one in particular with pin holes so badly aligned that we never could improve the trigger.
point being, unitized triggers may perform well even in lesser quality lowers.
titsonritz
04-13-16, 16:31
So they have a convenient place for a popped primer to fall into and jam in place so it cannot get at other internal components in the rifle. And since most of the cassette style triggers I've seen are sealed, you can go buy another one to replace it.
This is a reason I have not gone down that road, I figured they would be more prone to failure from something like a blown primer or torn case head.
So to answer your second question, YES, it is just another way to skin a cat.
I can buy that.
So otherwise it sounds like the main reasons are simplicity may be helpful for someone who may not understand or are worried about working on an AR FCG. Also, they may be more forgiving if you are dealing with a crappy lower. Got it.
This is a reason I have not gone down that road, I figured they would be more prone to failure from something like a blown primer or torn case head.
I can buy that.
So otherwise it sounds like the main reasons are simplicity may be helpful for someone who may not understand or are worried about working on an AR FCG. Also, they may be more forgiving if you are dealing with a crappy lower. Got it.
Yeah, some probably do use them for their simplicity, I honestly think if they can't figure out a mil-spec trigger assembly they probably have zero business working on their gun anyways, IMO. :) I guess I never really thought about the sloppy holes from crappy lowers, but thinking about it I can definitely see the benefit in that application.
I will say that I won't ever use one that has adjustments though. Not on my AR's anyways. I don't like the idea of little screws in my trigger assembly.
Once I tried a CMC 3.5# flat single stage trigger I knew it's what I wanted, nothing else came to mind.
I've tried several trigger, sear, spring combos. I have one combo in my pistol now that feels pretty good. Had one worked on but a guy on the AR forum that burped a couple times till I tossed it. But in a rifle that I want to shoot comfortably, reliably and with a trigger I really like, I'll put a CMC in it.
Sent via telegraph with the same fingers I use to sip whiskey.
titsonritz
04-15-16, 00:16
The AR-15 Drop-In Trigger Roundup (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?182950-The-AR-15-Drop-In-Trigger-Roundup)
The AR-15 Drop-In Trigger Roundup (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?182950-The-AR-15-Drop-In-Trigger-Roundup)
great and helpful review! thanks titsonritz (fyi- here's a more direct link to that - Trigger Roundup (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/04/jeremy-s/ar-15-drop-in-trigger-roundup/) )
I don't want to take you too far out of context, but the cassette-type triggers (to my knowledge) don't place spring stress on the pins like a traditional FCG does, so they are less dependent on lower receiver alignment. I, personally, haven't had much issue with drop-in triggers, but I do have a SSA-E that has a ton of trigger play on-safe (but it will never fire).
Why? Do the cassettes have adjustable pin holes independent of the trigger?
mkmckinley
04-15-16, 11:43
In my experience the Wilson TTU triggers (which happen to be cassette-style) are noticeably crisper than the equivalent Geiselle triggers and I have several of each. To me the selling point of the TTU isn't the cassette design it's the performance of the trigger, the cassette is simply part of it's design. I've not had a blown primer in either but I don't see anywhere on the TTU that a primer could be admitted to cause a stoppage. I also like that the break on the TTU is farther forward than on my 2 stage G triggers. Nothing wrong with the G's but I think the TTUs are more trigger for the money. The advantages I can think of with the cassette are larger bearing surfaces and the manufacturer can have control over tolerances instead of them being dictated by the lower receiver. Also any stress taken off the pin holes is good.
In my experience the Wilson TTU triggers are noticealby crisper than the equivalent Geiselle triggers and I have several of each. I've not had a blown primer in either but I don't see anywhere on the TTU that a primer could be admitted to cause a stoppage. I also like that the break on the TTU is farther forward than on my 2 stage G triggers. Nothing wrong with the G's but I think the TTUs are more trigger for the money. The advantages I can think of with the cassette are larger bearing surfaces and the manufacturer can have control over tolerances instead of them being dictated by the lower receiver. Also any stress taken off the pin holes is good.
I have noticed that the same Giessele trigger moved from lower to lower will experience a slightly different feel at the break. This indicates what we all should know, the location of the axis holes has a bit to do with the behavior of the trigger....
titsonritz
04-15-16, 12:32
So possibly better consistency between lowers, interesting.
The best drop in trigger will always be better than the best non drop in trigger.
I'll quote myself again, lol. You will never get better than a cassette (as it looks like we're calling them now) trigger.
This has been covered numerous times. A cassette trigger has 100% controlled tolerances, angles and mating surfaces inside the trigger cassette.
You can take that trigger from gun to gun and it'll be the same exact perfect break with zero creep etc.
The Wilson TTUs are better than any of the G triggers. I've owned and tested almost all of them. The best G trigger (in the best lower combo) comes very close, but still isn't as "perfect" as the TTU or TTU M2 tiggers. That's not to say the G triggers are bad - they're excellent, and probably the best out there for a non-cassette style.
Some of this is splitting hairs, almost literally. It depends on how much you can notice, how anal you are etc.
"A cassette trigger has 100% controlled tolerances, angles and mating surfaces inside the trigger cassette"
Maybe not the one using a glorified sheet metal housing.
titsonritz
04-15-16, 16:28
"A cassette trigger has 100% controlled tolerances, angles and mating surfaces inside the trigger cassette"
Maybe not the one using a glorified sheet metal housing.
There will no doubt always be varying degrees of quality and sound design with any product. I think one could assume we are not comparing bottom of the barrel garbage with one style to a top of the line in the other.
I'll quote myself again, lol. You will never get better than a cassette (as it looks like we're calling them now) trigger.
This has been covered numerous times. A cassette trigger has 100% controlled tolerances, angles and mating surfaces inside the trigger cassette.
You can take that trigger from gun to gun and it'll be the same exact perfect break with zero creep etc.
The Wilson TTUs are better than any of the G triggers. I've owned and tested almost all of them. The best G trigger (in the best lower combo) comes very close, but still isn't as "perfect" as the TTU or TTU M2 tiggers. That's not to say the G triggers are bad - they're excellent, and probably the best out there for a non-cassette style.
Some of this is splitting hairs, almost literally. It depends on how much you can notice, how anal you are etc.
Your last sentence sums up my conclusion from my experience for sure. My fingers are callused from years of manual labor and I hate wearing gloves, so I was VERY surprised when I saw how CMC did in comparison to the others tested, cause to me it feels awesome. I have a single stage and 2 stage CMC's and think they are amazing triggers. After looking at these tests though I wonder how much I'm just not noticing, to be honest.
I was surprised also to see how much better the drop ins were than the SD-3G, (I think that's the Geissele they tested), which would lead me to ask the question of, "Why wouldn't someone use a "cassette" trigger instead of mil-spec style trigger?"
The only thing I don't like about alot of them and it was one of the reasons I went with the CMC is, the adjustment screws. I wish they were set to certain lb setting at the factory and shipped that way instead of having the risk of the screw loosening.
I personally would love to see a test like this with 2 stage triggers and see how they all stack up. Then again, the author of the tests said it took 9 months to get these tests done so it may never happen, but a guy can hope.
...... which would lead me to ask the question of, "Why wouldn't someone use a "cassette" trigger instead of mil-spec style trigger?"......
if that question is why G over unitized, i believe because we want to do what our "betters" say is the right thing. G triggers are what members in the forums say are the the best, so thats what sells to the next fellow.
me, my next one will be a Wilson TTU (which, by the way, is set at the factory and doesn't have any adjustment screws to come loose).
if that question is why G over unitized, i believe because we want to do what our "betters" say is the right thing. G triggers are what members in the forums say are the the best, so thats what sells to the next fellow.
me, my next one will be a Wilson TTU (which, by the way, is set at the factory and doesn't have any adjustment screws to come loose).
I would concur with that. Also I get that alot of folks like to stay "mil-spec" as well. I am the type of guy to question things and like to give innovation a shot, and if the newer drop ins are better than I'm all for it.
I will admit, I am a sucker for the flat triggers, and I wish the Wilson had that option in their 2-stage triggers. Might have to give them a shot anyways.
Your last sentence sums up my conclusion from my experience for sure. My fingers are callused from years of manual labor and I hate wearing gloves, so I was VERY surprised when I saw how CMC did in comparison to the others tested, cause to me it feels awesome. I have a single stage and 2 stage CMC's and think they are amazing triggers. After looking at these tests though I wonder how much I'm just not noticing, to be honest.
I was surprised also to see how much better the drop ins were than the SD-3G, (I think that's the Geissele they tested), which would lead me to ask the question of, "Why wouldn't someone use a "cassette" trigger instead of mil-spec style trigger?"
The only thing I don't like about alot of them and it was one of the reasons I went with the CMC is, the adjustment screws. I wish they were set to certain lb setting at the factory and shipped that way instead of having the risk of the screw loosening.
I personally would love to see a test like this with 2 stage triggers and see how they all stack up. Then again, the author of the tests said it took 9 months to get these tests done so it may never happen, but a guy can hope.
I've felt/used a number of these triggers and something doesn't feel up to snuff about the CMC results. I've run them in all of my builds and my subjective feeling is that they are much better than most, or at the very least on par with Giselle and the like.
My measure break was also less than half of theirs. Something seems off.
BufordTJustice
04-16-16, 23:00
Geissele triggers are the ONLY aftermarket trigger that has been rigorously tested, vetted, tortured, and approved by NAVSEC Crane for use in SOG weapons. In an in-spec lower, they work... EVERY TIME. Period. End of story. Dead nuts reliable.
As many of us use our guns for work, absolute reliability is simply not an option. And Geissele stands alone in that regard. It's why i use them exclusively in my work guns and personal guns.
Are there other great triggers out there? Absolutely. Are they great quality? Absolutely. But they haven't been tested like the Geissele triggers have. And that's not up for debate.
I've felt/used a number of these triggers and something doesn't feel up to snuff about the CMC results. I've run them in all of my builds and my subjective feeling is that they are much better than most, or at the very least on par with Giselle and the like.
My measure break was also less than half of theirs. Something seems off.
I don't know. My finger is no way as scientific as that fancy machine they used. I know I prefer their 2/2 trigger to their single stage personally but I do run one of their single stage triggers in my SBR.
I also prefer to do business with good people, I'm not saying all the other companies are not good people at all, I've never dealt with them other than Geissele who is good as well, but I know the CMC folks are good people, and those type of people I like to support.
Geissele triggers are the ONLY aftermarket trigger that has been rigorously tested, vetted, tortured, and approved by NAVSEC Crane for use in SOG weapons. In an in-spec lower, they work... EVERY TIME. Period. End of story. Dead nuts reliable.
As many of us use our guns for work, absolute reliability is simply not an option. And Geissele stands alone in that regard....
best answer yet for using G series
JohnnyRambo
05-05-16, 22:41
Ease of installation I would guess. That's why they call them "drop in".
I find the oversized trigger pins and oversized anti rotate pins make a difference with the stock triggers . No they do not turn the military type triggers and hammers into into match triggers but there is a difference. Especially good or the 80% builders
Dr. Bullseye
03-07-19, 13:58
I don't get it. Is it a simplicity thing for people that don't know how to install a separate trigger/hammer/disconnector? Is they some other advantage with them I am missing or is it just another way to skin a cat?
Here is the advantage: guys like me can do it. Additionally, if I don't like it, I can replace it easily until I do like it.
Eurodriver
03-07-19, 17:00
Here is the advantage: guys like me can do it. Additionally, if I don't like it, I can replace it easily until I do like it.
“Guys like me”
What are you like?
Anyone that considers a drop-in trigger has obviously never felt a Geissele.
Geissele triggers are the ONLY aftermarket trigger that has been rigorously tested, vetted, tortured, and approved by NAVSEC Crane for use in SOG weapons. In an in-spec lower, they work.
This.
I have no doubt there are cassette style triggers that feel equal or superior to most of the Geissele triggers. However, at some point one has to weigh known reliability with performance. If you are using a rifle strictly for competition and are at a level of proficiency that allows you to see a measurable increase in performance, then by all means run that 1lb cassette trigger. The problem is 99.9% of shooters, myself included, are not at that level. With that being the case I don't understand how most can justify it to themselves to buy anything beyond a Geissele trigger or any of the current mil-spec(ish) triggers on the market (BCM PNT, ALG ACT, etc) for a rifle that will be used as anything other than a range toy.
As far as installation goes, I'd argue that when installed in an in-spec lower receiver a Geissele or other mil-spec trigger IS a drop in trigger. Seriously, it's a five minute or less job that can be done in your lap without tools. How much more "drop in" is really required at that point? Apart from those that are legitimately disabled, when I think of someone that is unable to install a mil-spec trigger I imagine said person also having a difficult time loading mags or separating the upper from lower.
Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk
I think currently it’s hard to beat the Larue trigger for value, then you have Geissele, BCM and a few others I would consider. For cassette drop in types, the Wilson Paul Howe model TTU would probably be the one I would choose to put in my rifle. They are build really well, but they are far from being the best value. Larry Vicker’s has endorsed them along with Geissele. Here is a link to an old thread on the Wilson TTU trigger.
http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?2038-Wilson-Combat-Tactical-Trigger-Unit-(First-Impressions
Came up in technical a couple of weeks back:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?213558-quot-Cassette-quot-Drop-In-type-triggers-educate-me
I'm one of those guys who absolutely HATES tinkering with anything. I almost sold one of my Colts after changing the grip. That's how much I DESPISE tinkering. It just kinda soured me on the rifle for a while. I actually don't even want to clean them. If i could afford it I'd just shoot them and someone would clean and change parts. My only real interest is shooting them. If firearms couldn't do that I wouldn't own any. I do like the history of many firearms but only if I can shoot it as well. Buying for the sake of history... eh
All my guns are actually OEM with very few minor exceptions. I don't have any aftermarket triggers but if I did it would be one of those cassettes.
Did I mention I HATE tinkering?!?!
Straight Shooter
03-07-19, 21:46
Anyone that considers a drop-in trigger has obviously never felt a Geissele.
Thats patently wrong.
I felt/shot a few & they are great & awesome & wonderful & all that.
Know what? My two Velocity's are too...for over $100 apiece less. Shouldnt make statements like that as if you know what all other people's experiences are.
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