View Full Version : Criminality of Selling Firearms as Private Individual
Hypothetical situation:
An individual orders a few Colt 6920's to do some clone builds for a reference collection, but since that time, decides not to do so.
Question:
Can the individual sell them through GB (going through an FFL on the buyer's end) for exactly the amount paid in full for them (i.e. NO PROFIT)?
Will they be in violation of the law?
rattlesnake
04-12-16, 12:55
Call the ATF, FBI, CIA, EPA, and 867-5309.
Call the ATF, FBI, CIA, EPA, and 867-5309.
Thank you for your constructive input.
Don't use GB. Sell them privately without a BOS.
Don't use GB. Sell them privately without a BOS.
So, when they are stolen and/or used in a crime the only transfer would be to the original purchaser?
Sounds like a good idea...
There is no law that says you cant.
Profit or no profit. It doesn't matter.
First of all difine what Profit is?
I can sell it for more then I paid and still not make a profit.
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
There is no law that says you cant.
Profit or no profit. It doesn't matter.
First of all difine what Profit is?
I can sell it for more then I paid and still not make a profit.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the definition of profit.
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
There is no way the individual can prove that he did not purchase the firearms without an intention to profit.
As per the ATF:
"Determining whether you are “engaged in the business” of dealing in
firearms requires looking at the specific facts and circumstances of
your activities."
"As a general rule, you will need a license if you repetitively buy and
sell firearms with the principal motive of making a profit. In contrast,
if you only make occasional sales of firearms from your personal
collection, you do not need to be licensed."
"Courts have identified several factors relevant to determining on
which side of that line your activities may fall, including: whether
you represent yourself as a dealer in firearms; whether you are
repetitively buying and selling firearms; the circumstances under
which you are selling firearms; and whether you are looking to make
a profit. Note that while quantity and frequency of sales are relevant
indicators, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a
license when as few as two firearms were sold, or when only one or
two transactions took place, when other factors were also present."
https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download
So, when they are stolen and/or used in a crime the only transfer would be to the original purchaser?
Sounds like a good idea...
By all means, complete as much paperwork as you want. WTBS, meek individuals with your mentality in our midst, self-registering their private property, will ensure registration will soon be a legal requirement.
So, when they are stolen and/or used in a crime the only transfer would be to the original purchaser?
Sounds like a good idea...
The nice side benefit of no paperwork being required by law is the element of deniability through anonymity. i.e. should a "turn them all in" or "register them all" edict come from Der Fuhrer and the BATFags ask "Where is gun X at?" you can say you legally sold them to an unknown person at a gunshow. After all, there is no requirement to document said transaction at this point in time (obviously subject to change; just make sure your alleged gunshow sale date is BEFORE legislation passed, duh!).
I don't buy used guns off of people mainly because most are lazy as hell and God knows how well the firearm's been taken care of. However, if I did decide to do so and some guy wanted to draw up a bill of sale I'd move on down the line.
The nice side benefit of no paperwork being required by law is the element of deniability through anonymity. i.e. should a "turn them all in" or "register them all" edict come from Der Fuhrer and the BATFags ask "Where is gun X at?" you can say you legally sold them to an unknown person at a gunshow. After all, there is no requirement to document said transaction at this point in time (obviously subject to change; just make sure your alleged gunshow sale date is BEFORE legislation passed, duh!).
I don't buy used guns off of people mainly because most are lazy as hell and God knows how well the firearm's been taken care of. However, if I did decide to do so and some guy wanted to draw up a bill of sale I'd move on down the line.
That all makes sense.
Thank you.
SomeOtherGuy
04-12-16, 14:13
Hypothetical situation:
An individual orders a few Colt 6920's to do some clone builds for a reference collection, but since that time, decides not to do so.
Question:
Can the individual sell them through GB (going through an FFL on the buyer's end) for exactly the amount paid in full for them (i.e. NO PROFIT)?
Will they be in violation of the law?
Two answers:
1) Black letter law: your intent is what matters. You stated that the guns were purchased for a collection, and you later lost interest or changed your mind. It is 100% legal for you to resell the guns in a private sale, whether FTF or via Gunbroker, in compliance with applicable laws (such as not knowingly selling to a felon, or doing a FTF sale with someone not resident in your own state), and it would be perfectly legal for you to make a profit also. This has always been the law and it continues to be "the law" in both statutes and written ATF guidance, even today in April 2016. Download and read the ATF brochure on this.
2) Reading the tea leaves: although what you propose to do is 100% legal, the statements of ATF and DOJ officials suggest that they are looking to find and prosecute people who are supposedly unlicensed gun dealers. Some indications of this per their press conference and the ATF guidance (which is not law, but should be considered) include selling new guns, selling guns with their original accessories, or selling multiples of the same type of gun.
My 2 cents: I think you are OK selling a few of the same type if you do so in a way that involves an FFL transfer to the seller. This could mean a Gunbroker sale and shipping it to the buyer's dealer, or a consignment sale at a local FFL gunshop. You are OK selling them at market price even if you make a profit, as long as you aren't buying stuff purposefully to make a short-term profit. (Buying stuff as long term collectibles with the hope of making a profit years in the future should be OK, and this is a gray area.)
You are within the letter of the law selling them FTF without any dealer/FFL involvement, but I think that has a higher risk of ATF interest if you are selling unfired new guns. But FTF sales isn't what you proposed to do anyway.
Averageman
04-12-16, 15:11
I always considered laying back some Colt 6920's and two hundred GI Magazines for each Colt and save them for my Grandkids.
Now if I test fire each one, clean it put it in storage and end up with more Colt 6920's than Grandkids, what are my options?
I see no reason why selling them in a FTF sale at some point would be an issue.
Eurodriver
04-12-16, 15:17
Doesn't anyone have any testicles left?
I've bought and sold guns privately face to face in this State (New Mexico) for years. Totally legal. Many times no bill of sale if you know the buyer personally. Even if legal I'd never cross State lines to make a sale. Know your area and know your buyer.
Hypothetical situation:
An individual orders a few Colt 6920's to do some clone builds for a reference collection, but since that time, decides not to do so.
Question:
Can the individual sell them through GB (going through an FFL on the buyer's end) for exactly the amount paid in full for them (i.e. NO PROFIT)?
Will they be in violation of the law?
Perhaps.
It doesn't matter how many guns, it doesn't matter what they are sold for. There are no stated qualifiers.
The guideline used by ATF is "engaged in business for profit" and it's so arbitrary it can probably be applied to anyone.
titsonritz
04-12-16, 15:40
There is nothing wrong with making a few bucks selling firearms here and there, if you do it on a regular basis than you have a business and need a FFL.
There is nothing wrong with making a few bucks selling firearms here and there, if you do it on a regular basis than you have a business and need a FFL.
I have two customers.
One is a lawyer who buys two of every HK handgun model released every year. He has been doing this since the late 80s and has hundreds of NIB HK handguns in his collection. He also buys things like Benelli shotguns for skeet and hunting, etc. He never sells his HK handguns but it is nothing for him to buy 8 different Benelli models and decide over the years which ones he likes and then sell the ones he doesn't like. As a consequence he probably sells a couple dozen firearms a year as discards. It is in no way a business for him, he basically starts his GB auctions at his "break even" price and they sometimes sell high and sometimes he breaks even.
I have another collector who is only interested in WWII firearms, he inherited a family business is and is very well off. He has one of the largest collections of WWII firearms I've ever seen. He literally buys hundreds of Garands, Lugers, 1911s and such every year looking for that rare one he doesn't own yet or to have trading stock for when a big deal trade opportunity comes along. He also sells his discards on Gunbroker which sometimes amounts to selling around a hundered guns per year.
Both of these guys are ONLY interested in enhancing their personal collections so that right there would disqualify both of them from ever becoming a FFL. They also have no interest in trying to make their personal collections a "business, much less a business for profit." They are just trying to offload the firearms they have no interest in and recoup some of the money they put out.
So they don't have a firearm business and they couldn't qualify for a FFL even if they had a completely zoned gun store because they aren't interested in selling guns for profit, they are only interested in building their personal collections.
Do they qualify as someone ATF should go after?
Do they qualify as someone ATF should go after?
No they do not. But that doesn't mean they won't.
Doc Safari
04-12-16, 17:37
I have two customers.
One is a lawyer who buys two of every HK handgun model released every year. He has been doing this since the late 80s and has hundreds of NIB HK handguns in his collection. He also buys things like Benelli shotguns for skeet and hunting, etc. He never sells his HK handguns but it is nothing for him to buy 8 different Benelli models and decide over the years which ones he likes and then sell the ones he doesn't like. As a consequence he probably sells a couple dozen firearms a year as discards. It is in no way a business for him, he basically starts his GB auctions at his "break even" price and they sometimes sell high and sometimes he breaks even.
I have another collector who is only interested in WWII firearms, he inherited a family business is and is very well off. He has one of the largest collections of WWII firearms I've ever seen. He literally buys hundreds of Garands, Lugers, 1911s and such every year looking for that rare one he doesn't own yet or to have trading stock for when a big deal trade opportunity comes along. He also sells his discards on Gunbroker which sometimes amounts to selling around a hundered guns per year.
Both of these guys are ONLY interested in enhancing their personal collections so that right there would disqualify both of them from ever becoming a FFL. They also have no interest in trying to make their personal collections a "business, much less a business for profit." They are just trying to offload the firearms they have no interest in and recoup some of the money they put out.
So they don't have a firearm business and they couldn't qualify for a FFL even if they had a completely zoned gun store because they aren't interested in selling guns for profit, they are only interested in building their personal collections.
Do they qualify as someone ATF should go after?
I would think the key consideration is that neither individual apparently makes a profit on their gun sales. I realize I'm not an ATF agent subject to politics as much as logic, but if I were an agent I'd think I would probably look at whether the individual seemed to be buying guns ONLY for the purpose of resale, and if he were making a profit on those sales.
I know of a cash where a police officer was buying and selling a few guns a month. He was indited by a Federal grand jury, arrested and forced to stand trial.
Land of the free, hahahaha
Note that while quantity and frequency of sales are relevant
indicators, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a
license when as few as two firearms were sold, or when only one or
two transactions took place, when other factors were also present."
https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download
The context of such convictions must be public record somewhere. I'm sure it would help the firearms community if we knew what they were. Otherwise, this is federal scare tactic. Has anyone researched this?
I imagine the guy buying a van full of firearms to sell. He opens van and sells two and is caught.
Meanwhile without such context, John Doe wants to sell two firearms that have been in the back of his closet and is freaking out cause he thinks the written law is HIS context.
I know of a cash where a police officer was buying and selling a few guns a month. He was indited by a Federal grand jury, arrested and forced to stand trial.
Land of the free, hahahaha
And......was he convicted?
I would think the key consideration is that neither individual apparently makes a profit on their gun sales. I realize I'm not an ATF agent subject to politics as much as logic, but if I were an agent I'd think I would probably look at whether the individual seemed to be buying guns ONLY for the purpose of resale, and if he were making a profit on those sales.
Actually sometimes they make huge profits.
Customer one ended up with some rare, discontinued Benellis by the time he sold them and got much more for them used than the price he paid for them as new guns.
Customer two definitely does well. When those $400 Lugers were coming in he bought a couple hundred of them, so figure 80 grand worth of Lugers just so he could cherry pick date codes, manufacturer and things like that. By the time he unloaded about half of them they were going for $900 each so figure he made about 100 grand or more than double what he paid.
The problem is, when does a big deal, high volume - deep pockets collector become a dealer? The second guy has a C&R but honestly that really doesn't protect him much as it's a collector license, not a dealer license so if ATF decides he is "dealing" he is in the same boat as everyone else.
Also ATF has specifically stated it can be just one or two guns so volume really isn't the issue at all. The problem is ATF won't define stated criteria that differentiates a collector from a dealer and they want to continue to make it up as they go along and prosecute people according to what they "believe" the person is doing.
There is no longer a safety net, there are no longer practiced guidelines that protect you.
And......was he convicted?
Yes, but I also think he was actually guilty. He wasn't just selling guns from his collection but actually taking orders and filling them.
SeriousStudent
04-12-16, 23:04
Mod note: If you can answer the OP's question, please answer the question. If you want to turn this into another General Discussion self-licking ice cream cone, stop now.
Of course anything can happen, but for the most part the ATF won't be very interested in your sale of a couple rifles you bought years ago, even if your intent was that someday they may be worth more. Reality is the ATF is a very small organization with limited resources. They have something like 5000 employees total, and most of those are paper pushers. There are dozens of guys at every gun show that buy/trade/sell and are obviously doing it to make money, yet there they are show after show, year after year. But they do watch sometimes, and I have seen some guys get shut down. There was one guy, who had literally hundreds of old rifles and he did shows for decades. Finally the ATF told him he had to stop or it could get real bad for him.
Hypothetical situation:
An individual orders a few Colt 6920's to do some clone builds for a reference collection, but since that time, decides not to do so.
Question:
Can the individual sell them through GB (going through an FFL on the buyer's end) for exactly the amount paid in full for them (i.e. NO PROFIT)?
Will they be in violation of the law?
Short answer is no, there's nothing wrong with that. And if I were in that position, I'd still say no even if I made a little more than I paid. Why. Because I'm not in the business of selling firearms. But if someone wants to liquidate a personal collection or part of it, it is still legal to do so.
Hmmm. Profit. NIB. Multiples. Hmmm. Was a background check conducted?
Nope. FTF.
Do I need a dealer license to sell my car?
Profit?? Market value went up, plus transportation fees, storage fees, if complete firearm there would be cleaning fees.
I for one am not concerned, there have been hundreds of gun shows this year, how come everyone with out a FFL hasn't been arrested yet? We know most are there to make money, cause if I sell a gun to a vendor, he will mark it up and put it on the table before I even leave, for much more then he paid me.
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Nope. FTF.
Do I need a dealer license to sell my car?
Profit?? Market value went up, plus transportation fees, storage fees, if complete firearm there would be cleaning fees.
I for one am not concerned, there have been hundreds of gun shows this year, how come everyone with out a FFL hasn't been arrested yet? We know most are there to make money, cause if I sell a gun to a vendor, he will mark it up and put it on the table before I even leave, for much more then he paid me.
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Well things just changed. Give it time.
Gun shows may once again become the place where somebody is suddenly arrested and the regular vendors start warning folks about which table might be a ATF sting. It's been so long that people think "can't happen" but if you told folks in 1984 that Colt would make carbines with fixed CAR stocks and no bayonet lug, they'd have laughed at you.
I've bought and sold guns privately face to face in this State (New Mexico) for years. Totally legal. Many times no bill of sale if you know the buyer personally. Even if legal I'd never cross State lines to make a sale. Know your area and know your buyer.
Agreed, I've used Armslist to buy and sell guns, no issues. I apply craigslist rules and usually bring a friend (it does help that my drinking buddies are all cops), make sure its a public place. So far, out of the 5 transactions done, all of the people were gun guys, who knew what they were doing, what they were buying and what features to look for on the firearm. I only ask for there I.D.
SeriousStudent
04-13-16, 20:58
I have deleted a bunch of unneeded crap from the peanut gallery.
Also, we've dropped a little chlorine in the gene pool.
titsonritz
04-13-16, 23:44
I have two customers.
<snip>
Do they qualify as someone ATF should go after?
I would say no, but I could see the ATF saying otherwise which is BS.
Moose-Knuckle
04-14-16, 02:05
So for you guys in this thread, if you were to sell a firearm tomorrow just how would you go about it.
Create a bill of sell and ask for their ID? Only sale via a third party FFL? Only sell to an FFL? Etc.
I ask cause I'm wanting to unload a couple of firearms within the year and just want to be sure that I don't step on my own dick in the process.
So for you guys in this thread, if you were to sell a firearm tomorrow just how would you go about it.
Create a bill of sell and ask for their ID? Only sale via a third party FFL? Only sell to an FFL? Etc.
I ask cause I'm wanting to unload a couple of firearms within the year and just want to be sure that I don't step on my own dick in the process.
I honestly believe you won't have any problems selling it any way you choose. I don't think we have arrived at that point yet, but that is the direction change the ATF has just made.
If you ask for ID and make a bill of sale, at some point the ATF could actually use that as evidence to determine you were acting like an "firearms dealer" even though 10 years ago this was considered "due diligence" and promoted as a way to protect yourself from any ATF problems.
Selling via third party FFL, aka transferring through a FFL, used to be the "gold standard" of covering your own ass and making sure ATF was happy because it went through a dealer and a background check was done. Problem is, ATF just declared that all to be meaningless if they decide you are acting like a "firearms dealer." It should protect you, after all you transferred them to a FFL, but it sure didn't protect the Gunsmoke guy.
Selling only to a FFL should also protect you. It pretty much guarantees you won't be making any kind of profit, in fact you can expect to get about 40% of the actual worth of the firearm. But with ATFs recent declaration, even that is no guarantee. If you somehow manage to buy guns for "crackhead" prices and sell them to a FFL and make money, recent ATF practices could declare you are functioning as a "firearms dealer" who just happens to be selling to a FFL. The FFL will be protected, you sure as hell won't be.
So now that I've done the scary scenarios and slippery slope part, my honest answer today is that I would simply list them on Gunbroker or here in the EE. I would avoid private sales unless you actually KNOW the buyer personally. Most likely you will end up with an out of state buyer, confirm the FFL status with an EZ check, print out a copy of the EZ check results and ship to the FFL and you will probably be fine.
That is probably the most common standard practice right now. And so long as we don't get President Clinton again, I don't think things will end up like they could if the ATF is allowed to proceed along the groundwork they just laid. If Clinton does get elected, we could be in for a scary effin ride, she will be rabid about guns.
Lastly, you might consider timing, if Clinton gets the nomination, you can expect to get a better price and actually sell your guns as the panic buying gets underway.
Moose-Knuckle
04-14-16, 02:34
Steyr, I appreciate your input as I know you have vast experience with all this. I've been holding out for the elections to off load them, my only concern is what I want to acquire with the money I get will increase in price or sell out all together.
Trying to get my ducks in a row before the main event. Timing is everything and all that.
Steyr, I appreciate your input as I know you have vast experience with all this. I've been holding out for the elections to off load them, my only concern is what I want to acquire with the money I get will increase in price or sell out all together.
Trying to get my ducks in a row before the main event. Timing is everything and all that.
If you have any plans of buying anything beyond the most pedestrian firearm please conclude your purchases this week and plan on recouping the following year. It will be a bad time to sell a gun to buy a gun.
At the first hint of panic, dealers are going to clean out the major wholesalers and then everyone is going to list everything at pumped up prices. I kept my prices the same during the first election related panic buy on special order items, but it literally took 18 months to fill some of those orders.
I honestly believe you won't have any problems selling it any way you choose. I don't think we have arrived at that point yet, but that is the direction change the ATF has just made.
If you ask for ID and make a bill of sale, at some point the ATF could actually use that as evidence to determine you were acting like an "firearms dealer" even though 10 years ago this was considered "due diligence" and promoted as a way to protect yourself from any ATF problems.
Selling via third party FFL, aka transferring through a FFL, used to be the "gold standard" of covering your own ass and making sure ATF was happy because it went through a dealer and a background check was done. Problem is, ATF just declared that all to be meaningless if they decide you are acting like a "firearms dealer." It should protect you, after all you transferred them to a FFL, but it sure didn't protect the Gunsmoke guy.
Selling only to a FFL should also protect you. It pretty much guarantees you won't be making any kind of profit, in fact you can expect to get about 40% of the actual worth of the firearm. But with ATFs recent declaration, even that is no guarantee. If you somehow manage to buy guns for "crackhead" prices and sell them to a FFL and make money, recent ATF practices could declare you are functioning as a "firearms dealer" who just happens to be selling to a FFL. The FFL will be protected, you sure as hell won't be.
So now that I've done the scary scenarios and slippery slope part, my honest answer today is that I would simply list them on Gunbroker or here in the EE. I would avoid private sales unless you actually KNOW the buyer personally. Most likely you will end up with an out of state buyer, confirm the FFL status with an EZ check, print out a copy of the EZ check results and ship to the FFL and you will probably be fine.
That is probably the most common standard practice right now. And so long as we don't get President Clinton again, I don't think things will end up like they could if the ATF is allowed to proceed along the groundwork they just laid. If Clinton does get elected, we could be in for a scary effin ride, she will be rabid about guns.
Lastly, you might consider timing, if Clinton gets the nomination, you can expect to get a better price and actually sell your guns as the panic buying gets underway.
Steyr, thank you for your informed opinion and input.
However, at this time I would still not feel comfortable selling a NIB firearm and making a profit, even if it were through an FFL.
Would it be appropriate to contact a local ATF field agent to get a response in writing?
It all comes down to intent. There are some factors ATF has used in court to argue that the intent was selling to make a profit, instead of enhancing your personal collection. Multiples of the same model (which you seem to check off), restocking inventory (selling a particular model, and then obtaining another of that model), and sheer number of sales.
In the end, though, they'll try to prove what they want to prove, using whatever facts they think they have. I wouldn't sell them all at once, but unless you have ten or more, I wouldn't worry about it.
Would it be appropriate to contact a local ATF field agent to get a response in writing?
Oh yeah, like that has never cause problems.
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So for you guys in this thread, if you were to sell a firearm tomorrow just how would you go about it.
Create a bill of sell and ask for their ID? Only sale via a third party FFL? Only sell to an FFL? Etc.
I ask cause I'm wanting to unload a couple of firearms within the year and just want to be sure that I don't step on my own dick in the process.
I'd just sell them. I personally ask for I.D. to confirm age and residency, but I don't worry about bills of sale or even record the I.D. number. In my opinion, if someone with nefarious intent is willing to pay my full retail price for a firearm they probably could get one anywhere. The shear number of guns being sold on the bulletin board of my store (I own a rural hardware store), and through online connections like MeWe (since Facebook has shutdown gun sales pages) I cannot believe that the ATF is doing much of anything about private sellers selling a few guns a year. If they are, we sure aren't hearing about it.
My company holds an FFL, but it is in the company name. I unload plenty of private guns that I owned before getting the company FFL, or guns I picked up through private purchases, and I'm not worried in the least about the ATF bugging me. Once I deduct the cash value of my time in writing the ad to sell the gun, time involved in arranging the transaction and time involved in traveling to make the transaction there is never any "profit" in my gun transactions.
Steyr, thank you for your informed opinion and input.
However, at this time I would still not feel comfortable selling a NIB firearm and making a profit, even if it were through an FFL.
Would it be appropriate to contact a local ATF field agent to get a response in writing?
It has been my experience that if you submit 6 letters you will get 6 different opinions, none of which will protect you because ATF is famous for writing compliance / determination letters that directly contradict previous compliance / determinations letters and often write compliance / determination letters that contradict their own stated definitions.
This guy was certainly a dealer w/o a license, selling 300 guns in a three year period. Even then, he was given verbal warning, and then written warning. He bought and sold more guns after that, and then was arrested.
http://www.guns.com/2016/04/14/ohio-man-guilty-of-selling-300-guns-without-a-license-some-stopped-on-the-way-to-beirut/?utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content&utm_content=570ffdca04d30128561715a5&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook
Would it be safe to assume to just live one's life as normal?
I'm personally at a point where I can research and thoroughly plan a purchase whereas years ago I bought stuff that I simply didn't like, need or care for, and realized too late I had buyers remorse.
I don't see myself trading much if at all anymore, but let's say one befell hard times. I don't think that they are totally going after folks kicking off stuff to keep lights on.
It's intentionally confusing and will do nothing to deter crime.
I'm curious how this will affect GB. I only ask because while Steyr has been a good resource; I still don't understand what has changed, to what extent, or what if anything.
I'm actually more confused now and that might just be me needing it explained barney style.
This guy was certainly a dealer w/o a license, selling 300 guns in a three year period. Even then, he was given verbal warning, and then written warning. He bought and sold more guns after that, and then was arrested.
http://www.guns.com/2016/04/14/ohio-man-guilty-of-selling-300-guns-without-a-license-some-stopped-on-the-way-to-beirut/?utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content&utm_content=570ffdca04d30128561715a5&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook
Well here is the problem.
"After investigating the matter, the ATF learned Cassinger sold the guns through the website Arms List, which hosts gun sales ads posted by private and licensed sellers, to a suspect already being investigated for shipping guns to the Middle East."
If he sold them on Arms List they almost certainly went through a FFL.
Second problem is the buyer looks like the actual problem.
The whole "300 guns in three years" is irrelevant. ATF has never stated a number that differentiates between a private seller and a dealer, in fact they have recently specifically stated that it could be "one or two" guns and still qualify as an unlicensed dealer.
So what is the difference between a fickle collectors who buys a lot of guns, quickly loses interest in many of them and sells them so he can buy more guns and a firearm dealer who buys guns solely for the purpose of resale. We can also throw out the "profit" consideration because there are many times a FFL actually sells guns at a loss just to get rid of the duds.
This is just one more absurd consequence of attempting to regulate items rather than criminals. People talk of decriminalizing drugs and ending the war on drugs, when are we going to end the war on guns?
Would it be safe to assume to just live one's life as normal?
I'm personally at a point where I can research and thoroughly plan a purchase whereas years ago I bought stuff that I simply didn't like, need or care for, and realized too late I had buyers remorse.
I don't see myself trading much if at all anymore, but let's say one befell hard times. I don't think that they are totally going after folks kicking off stuff to keep lights on.
It's intentionally confusing and will do nothing to deter crime.
I'm curious how this will affect GB. I only ask because while Steyr has been a good resource; I still don't understand what has changed, to what extent, or what if anything.
I'm actually more confused now and that might just be me needing it explained barney style.
Only the "intent" of ATF has changed. They are ignoring provisions within FOPA and have simply changed their position that "going through a FFL" no longer guarantees anything.
Only the "intent" of ATF has changed. They are ignoring provisions within FOPA and have simply changed their position that "going through a FFL" no longer guarantees anything.
Okay.
Is this something a lawsuit could rectify?
Love it or hate it, FOPA is in writing and law.
Is this something that the NRA, whom I pay dues to, should be on top of?
From an LE standpoint, busting dudes selling guns to other gun guys really isn't doing anything against crime. 99% of those guns get shot once and stowed in a safe.
But from a Bureaucracy standpoint, it "justifies" people and their positions by making it seem like they are "doing something"
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04-14-16, 17:46
If it helps, normally a criminal charge has to involve mens rea, i.e., the perp knew he or she was doing something illegal. That's the only common denominator I can reduce this to if as few as one or two guns can result in being accused of dealing without a license.
On the other hand, as others have stated, assuming the ATF acts in good faith may be the biggest fallacy of all.
Okay.
Is this something a lawsuit could rectify?
Love it or hate it, FOPA is in writing and law.
Is this something that the NRA, whom I pay dues to, should be on top of?
From an LE standpoint, busting dudes selling guns to other gun guys really isn't doing anything against crime. 99% of those guns get shot once and stowed in a safe.
But from a Bureaucracy standpoint, it "justifies" people and their positions by making it seem like they are "doing something"
I think this is a result of the wishes of the Obama Administration, since he failed to effectively EO his wishes into the law of the land and it will only be corrected by pressure from another President who takes issue with the direction.
The NRA really doesn't take on things like this, if they did, they'd be all over the "sporter clause" within the 1968 GCA. Also this isn't the first time FOPA has been completely ignored, we've seen several examples of people arrested for handguns in states that prohibit them even though handguns were legal in the point of origin and at their intended destination.
Problem is this isn't a new "law" that can be challenged, it is simply a new opinion by ATF regarding how they are going to apply existing laws and regulations.
Would it be safe to assume to just live one's life as normal?
I'm personally at a point where I can research and thoroughly plan a purchase whereas years ago I bought stuff that I simply didn't like, need or care for, and realized too late I had buyers remorse.
I don't see myself trading much if at all anymore, but let's say one befell hard times. I don't think that they are totally going after folks kicking off stuff to keep lights on.
It's intentionally confusing and will do nothing to deter crime.
I'm curious how this will affect GB. I only ask because while Steyr has been a good resource; I still don't understand what has changed, to what extent, or what if anything.
I'm actually more confused now and that might just be me needing it explained barney style.
That's where I'm at.
As a teenager, I inherited a substantial firearms collection and have sold many items through GB over the years.
I continued to buy, sell, trade until recently because of the supposed re-interpretation of ATF regulation.
This makes me nervous. I don't want to do anything that may be viewed the wrong way.
I simply have too much to lose.
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