View Full Version : Punched five times does not justify the use of deadly force
I'll just leave this gem here. Before you clear leather, make sure you can justify deadly force. After all, a prosecutor as this is all to real a possibility.
http://www.news-journalonline.com/article/20160408/NEWS/160409545
How many punches equal deadly force, before the blows justify a response with deadly force, in this case a knife?
How many punches did Kayla Baxter, an 18-year old Daytona Beach woman weighing 115 pounds, have to take from Keith Lovett, a 37-year-old convicted felon weighing 165 pounds, before she stabbed him in the face?
That’s one of the main questions Circuit Judge Terence Perkins posed during a recent stand-your-ground hearing for Baxter, who is represented by defense attorney Michael Lambert.
“Mr. Lambert, when does a punch become deadly force,” Perkins asked.
“When it doesn’t stop,” Lambert replied. “I think if you hit somebody once and you walk away that’s not deadly force, but he persisted. He wasn’t going to let her alone. She said he hit her five times.”
Assistant State Attorney Megan Upchurch said she did not have a clear answer, but Baxter did not have the right to stab Lovett.
“Even being punched five times before does not justify the use of deadly force,” Upchurch said. “He did not have a weapon.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oC3k_4Yk5w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWccc6ZCRDo
And so forth...
https://www.google.com/search?q=killed+with+punch&oq=killed+with+punch&aqs=chrome..69i57.7056j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Judge made a bad decision from what the story stated, she should win on appeal.
sevenhelmet
04-13-16, 09:11
Every class I've ever taken (CCW, self-defense, etc.) has stated that a thrown fist is deadly force. I'm not changing my ROE over stupid legal decisions. The last thing anyone needs to be thinking about while defending their LIFE, is how some idiot DA is going to interpret their actions.
This is terrible judgement, and appeals have a case IMO.
Judge made a bad decision from what the story stated, she should win on appeal.
Considering the size and sex disparity, I'd expect you're right. Also sounds like her attorney did a crappy job.
Yeah, that should get tossed. Then again, with the court system today, nothing will surprise me.
Averageman
04-13-16, 09:35
These stupid decisions can still cost you your life.
What happens if you get in a similar tangle with a "Diddunuffin'" and get a judge like this? Do you think you might end up fighting everyday in jail while you wait for your trial?
Everybody, the Judge the Defense Attorney and the Prosecutor all need to find another line of work.
diving dave
04-13-16, 10:27
I worked in law enforcement, and also have been to a homicide scene where the victim was punched once in the face...Stopped his heart. Wonder if the judge has ever been in a fight....The answer is no.
There are a couple of very recent examples, one of them involving high school kids, where one punch killed the other and they were the same size. So while I would expect the difference in size and gender to absolutely make a difference, it shouldn't regardless.
The judge is an idiot. Does he expect that one should endure enough punches until unable to defend with deadly force before defending with deadly force? I.e. "well, if you are beaten into unconsciousness, then I could see where a deadly force response may be ok..." Said by no one ever.
A favorite quote I use in my everyday life:
“I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them."
John Wayne as J.B Books in The Shootist 1976
Judge made a bad decision from what the story stated, she should win on appeal.
How many cops have escalated after getting punched.
The Judge is an ass.
Methinks Judgie doth watch too much Law and Order.
Prosecutor was also no genius.
I can make my assumptions on this case but, she should appeal.
Nobody ever got struck in the head because their attacker was going easy on them
Disparity of force is a real thing, supported by a significant body of case law. The defense attorney should've had a stack of them at hand when arguing this point. As for this:
Upchurch said. “He did not have a weapon.”
Bullshit. The second he balled up his fists he had two weapons capable of inflicting death or great bodily harm. Once again, her attorney sucked. :(
gunrunner505
04-13-16, 12:23
Disparity of force is a real thing, supported by a significant body of case law. The defense attorney should've had a stack of them at hand when arguing this point. As for this:
Bullshit. The second he balled up his fists he had two weapons capable of inflicting death or great bodily harm. Once again, her attorney sucked. :(
Exactly.
People love to confuse unarmed with not dangerous.
Her attorney did suck.
I think the judge deserves a much better answer so in the future he/she/it can make better decisions. He should volunteer to be a punch test dummy and well note at what lunch count he dies and from that day forth X-1 is the answer. It's for the children.
Her lawyer was/is an idiot as is the prosecutor for pressing charges.
To be fair the case sounds like there is more to it than guy repeatedly punched girl and she finally stabs him. Sounds like she drew a knife prior to any kind of physical attack. Questions as to when the guy was stabbed.
LEOs are allowed use of deadly force if their attacker has a "less-than-lethal" device, i.e., a taser. Why? First - less than lethals "can" cause death, or the less than lethal could be used to disarm the officer - thus leading to death.
I say the following as someone who has been teaching Forensic Science (CJ program) and Pathophysiology (medical) for 36 years - ANY punch starts out as "less-than-lethal", but can easily become lethal. HOW does a defender - especially one with "prior knowledge" that a punch CAN be lethal - deal with that information and situation - and within the time frame of an attack? Punches aren't marked lethal or non-lethal!
john - aka, the devil's advocate & general trouble maker
PS - On a personal level....
I already have impaired vision in one eye due to a retinal tear & detachment, and the associated laser "spot welding" to re-attach as was best possible. I am told that my "good" eye has the same underlying issue in terms of being prone to a tear/detachment. Am I supposed to even tolerate "one punch"???? To complicate things from a legal point of view, I am a 64 year old, but also a Godan Renshi blackbelt in a "street" style of Okinawan karate. Does that influence the court? While I am certainly older, slower, and weaker - I am also 6'5" and 280#. So THAT also needs to be entered into the overall legal equation!!!! Whew!
Oh yeh - and I carry all of the time I am off campus.
Every class I've ever taken (CCW, self-defense, etc.) has stated that a thrown fist is deadly force.
Dont hang your hat, or bet the farm on absolutes such as that.
There are mitigating factors such as size disparity, strength disparity, skill disparity and other factors.
'So Mr. Jones, let me make sure I understand, you are asserting that my client, an intoxicated, 5'8, 155 pound, 16 year-old high school boy, was threatening you with deadly force as he cocked his fist back?'
Might be a hard sale if you are a sober, 6'0, 225 pounder, with 4 years military service behind you.
Absolutes are very rarely absolute, and I'd be willing to bet you wouldn't get one of those guys who told you that to come testify they told you that, a lot of folks play to the crowd.
Digital_Damage
04-13-16, 14:15
If I'm reading this correctly, she pulled the knife and yelled at him before he started striking her.
Not as clear cut as it seems...
see what I did there?
Moose-Knuckle
04-14-16, 03:58
Joao Carvalho: MMA fighter dies from head injuries
The Portuguese welterweight, who fought for Team Nobrega, was taken to hospital and had emergency brain surgery that night but died on Monday evening after 48 hours in intensive care.
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/04/12/sport/mma-fighter-joao-carvalho-dies-dublin-fight/
My response to people who are so appalled when the media plays up an "unarmed" person being shot is to ask if they have ever watched an MMA fight where someone gets knocked out with one punch. And I point out that that is a sport, with rules, and they wear gloves. None of which occurs on the street.
My response to people who are so appalled when the media plays up an "unarmed" person being shot is to ask if they have ever watched an MMA fight where someone gets knocked out with one punch. And I point out that that is a sport, with rules, and they wear gloves. None of which occurs on the street.
Yep, I have said very much the same to several people. I always ask them if they would like to be punched by me just once, haven't gotten anyone to let me yet...
I worked in law enforcement, and also have been to a homicide scene where the victim was punched once in the face...Stopped his heart. Wonder if the judge has ever been in a fight....The answer is no.
Ive been on 3 separate deaths caused by a one punch knock out, it was all over when the head hit the concrete.
Come to FL, Patrick Lavoie didn't even throw one single punch.
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2010-09-17/news/fl-pompano-road-rage-20100916_1_road-rage-florida-law-mike-dutko
Learn not to screw with people and you won't get shot.
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