View Full Version : What happened to Bushmaster arms?
general_purpose
04-13-16, 17:53
Did I hear right?
Did Bushmaster arms go away? Are they still making AR's?
Your source?
I find nothing and heard nothing. But Bushmaster is just a name, Freedom group is their puppet master.
Bushmaster has a name attached to some of the shootings in the last 15 years, if Freedom group chose to bury the name and relate all their ARs as Remington or something else it would probably make sense in an election year. Bushmaster may be getting sued for it, easy way to end that is go 'good by bushmaster' and give that factory another name.
Windham Weaponry is the real old Bushmaster in Maine.
titsonritz
04-13-16, 18:24
Bushmaster has a name attached to some of the shootings in the last 15 years, if Freedom group chose to bury the name and relate all their ARs as Remington or something else it would probably make sense in an election year. Bushmaster may be getting sued for it, easy way to end that is go 'good by bushmaster' and give that factory another name.
That is what I was thinking.
cougar_guy04
04-13-16, 20:23
If they've gone out of business, I'm sure that's news to them.
I'm with TMS951, is there a source for this?
Singlestack Wonder
04-13-16, 20:30
No sure why anyone would buy a bushmaster but their website is still there (states "Under Construction")
No sure why anyone would buy a bushmaster but their website is still there (states "Under Construction")
I'm always looking for parts and good deals. Won't do a polymer gun but I wouldn't have a problem using bushmaster receivers..
general_purpose
04-13-16, 21:05
I'm always looking for parts and good deals. Won't do a polymer gun but I wouldn't have a problem using bushmaster receivers..
How Come?
Last I heard a few years ago, Bushmaster was the alternative to a Colt. If you didn't want to drop the coin on one of those UAW Colt workers handiworks, you bought a Bushy. They were just as good, but less valued by the market. Now I hear from the interweb chatter that the Bushmaster brand is not selling as Bushmaster, but under Windham. Is this just Interweb BS? can we still buy Bushmaster uppers and lowers?
How Come?
Last I heard a few years ago, Bushmaster was the alternative to a Colt. If you didn't want to drop the coin on one of those UAW Colt workers handiworks, you bought a Bushy. They were just as good, but less valued by the market. Now I hear from the interweb chatter that the Bushmaster brand is not selling as Bushmaster, but under Windham. Is this just Interweb BS? can we still buy Bushmaster uppers and lowers?
A lot has changed since the old "ABC" days.
There are now a lot of companies making very good rifles, and bushmaster has fallen behind since the freedom group took over (seems like a common theme).
I suggest you look around and get caught up if you've been out for a while, and/or are looking to purchase.
Thinking back, the last 5 years we've seen HUGE changes.
In short, there are much betier rfiles for less $ than bus master right now.
Why would you want to buy Bushmaster? Who cares?
How Come?
Last I heard a few years ago, Bushmaster was the alternative to a Colt. If you didn't want to drop the coin on one of those UAW Colt workers handiworks, you bought a Bushy. They were just as good, but less valued by the market. Now I hear from the interweb chatter that the Bushmaster brand is not selling as Bushmaster, but under Windham. Is this just Interweb BS? can we still buy Bushmaster uppers and lowers?
Here's the deal. I feel I can build an equal as far as quality to a bushmaster for significantly less. Don't confuse me saying they make fine quality weapons as them being the best on the market. Most lower end receivers are pretty equal in quality. I own a dpms based rifle as well. Most of the guys here won't get 10 feet of one. No attacks, speaking truth.this isn't a quality debate per say but I can build what I want for the price of a low end bushmaster that I would still want to modify and still have the same quality.
Freedom group bought bushmaster, and moved the factory. The employees did not want to move. They had to wait for a non competitive clause to pass, and opened the factory back up as Windham weaponry.
In the beginning, they were using better materials in some places than bushmaster did. Still not colt or bcm.
Don't know about now.
Bushmaster went down, as has every company that freedom group bought.
You could almost say that freedom group is accomplishing from within what liberals have failed to accomplish: the destruction of the US firearms industry.
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titsonritz
04-13-16, 23:35
Freedom group bought bushmaster, and moved the factory. The employees did not want to move. They had to wait for a non competitive clause to pass, and opened the factory back up as Windham weaponry.
In the beginning, they were using better materials in some places than bushmaster did. Still not colt or bcm.
Don't know about now.
Bushmaster went down, as has every company that freedom group bought.
You could almost say that freedom group is accomplishing from within what liberals have failed to accomplish: the destruction of the US firearms industry.
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Maybe Soros owns Freedom group and that is all part of the plan...
Bushmaster went down hill way before freedom group bought them - early 2000 is when I noticed the change
I'll catch flack for this, but my circa-'96 ban Bushy I bought new was comparable in build quality, toughness, accuracy etc. to the Colts I've owned. They used to be high quality rifles. Around '02-'03 is when I paid enough attention to notice they weren't what they used to be.
Maybe Soros owns Freedom group and that is all part of the plan...
I don't know. I've heard that rumor as well, but I have yet to find anything conclusive on soros having any type of lead on freedom group, whether he owns any of it or not.
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I'll catch flack for this, but my circa-'96 ban Bushy I bought new was comparable in build quality, toughness, accuracy etc. to the Colts I've owned. They used to be high quality rifles. Around '02-'03 is when I paid enough attention to notice they weren't what they used to be.
They were good in the 90's. Early 2000 started their decline
They were good in the 90's. Early 2000 started their decline
That's what Ive understood. that's before my hay-day though. my first was a M&P sport in like 2008. it was a decent rifle, but I was into way too much other things that weren't very good.. I have been thru a dozen rifles in the past 2 years.
556BlackRifle
04-14-16, 09:43
They were good in the 90's. Early 2000 started their decline
I had one in the early 90s and it was a good weapon. Accurate, reliable and reasonably priced. Their current offerings? No thanks.
general_purpose
04-14-16, 11:00
I had one in the early 90s and it was a good weapon. Accurate, reliable and reasonably priced. Their current offerings? No thanks.
So what problems exactly can I expect if I bought a Bushmaster XM15 today? As opposed to my XM15 from 1996? Fit? Finish?reliability issues?? BCG not fit into the Upper?
So what problems exactly can I expect if I bought a Bushmaster XM15 today? As opposed to my XM15 from 1996? Fit? Finish?reliability issues?? BCG not fit into the Upper?
Maybe all of that...maybe none of it. That's most people's issue.
So what problems exactly can I expect if I bought a Bushmaster XM15 today? As opposed to my XM15 from 1996? Fit? Finish?reliability issues?? BCG not fit into the Upper?
I would expect the tolerances of parts to be given more leeway in terms of how close they are to what they should be, think less parts rejected. Bad tolerances can stack and come together to causes malfunctions.
Cheaper materials, and cutting out manufacturing steps non essential to making a gun go bang. Like cheaper barrel steel, and not parkerizing under the gas block / front sight base. Cheaper parts like a CAR buffer, when it would run better on a heavier one.
A gas port set for junk ammo. This does not matter if you shoot junk ammo, if you shoot 5.56 ammo this and the car buffer could be an issue.
Some of what I mentioned applies to the old Bushmaster. From reading your posts in this thread I doubt you would notice the difference between a shrub master and Colt.
However on this forum and the culture many of us subscribe to, we do notice, and look for it, and we don't want it. For you it may be everything you wanted, but you will not get core members of this site singing praise for bushmaster in any of their iterations though.
The 800$ price tag for a Colt 6720 seems well worth the premium over a 700$ shrub master. But thats just me, to each their own.
I agree with all of that. I will say Colt 6720 sets the bar for entry level. You can hand select parts and build a better rifle than a factory built rifle for under 700. don't confuse that with Colt quality, but you can build a better than bushmaster for less than the bushmaster.
556BlackRifle
04-14-16, 19:41
So what problems exactly can I expect if I bought a Bushmaster XM15 today? As opposed to my XM15 from 1996? Fit? Finish?reliability issues?? BCG not fit into the Upper?
I think JC5188 got it exactly right. Quality wise, you just don't know what you're going to get.
Maybe all of that...maybe none of it. That's most people's issue.
In other words, we pay for better QC.
Better components , and much better QC
When you continuously send out rifles with front sights canted 15-20 degrees and A2/ phantom flash hiders that are triangular because they have been crushed, you might have some 'smithing/ QC issues
bloodlord77
04-14-16, 23:52
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?169739-bought-twice-finally-smiling&highlight=
Here, have a read on the thread I posted about my tribulations with my late model bushy (bought last year). Fit and finish were superb, but thats understandable considering none of the parts get any QC. They just get passed through with the rest of the batch. I'll stick with my colt and its QC scratches any day. Paid 899 for the xm15 m4a3 patrolman carbine. In a little over a year, the only bushmaster parts left are the upper and lower receivers and lpk. Had to replace bcg, buffer, buffer spring, barrel. The barrel was advertised as 4150 cmv chrome lined bore and chamber, mighty funny every other round started key holing at an alarmingly low round count. Needless to say, Buyers remorse is a bitter pill to swallow.
recent observations from my class in Virginia last week. Carbine was about 18 months old.
1. Still using carbine buffers.
2. Still using non F marked front sight bases.
3. Still using semi-auto carriers.
4. Still churning out crap barrels with out of spec chambers. Here's what happened when the 5.56 chamber reamer met the Bushmaster. (see below).
Bushmaster has never been quality. It was simply acceptable as the other options were mediocre and the Colts were either expensive or non existent.
38956
titsonritz
04-14-16, 23:54
Sandy Hook Lawsuit: Judge Rules Against Gun Companies (http://www.newsweek.com/connecticut-judge-dismisses-gun-manufacturers-motion-dismiss-447918)
Pretty sure it will be overturned on appeal. The PLCAA is pretty straight forward. Nothing the companies did violated the law. This is simply another activist judge not following the laws.
Sandy Hook Lawsuit: Judge Rules Against Gun Companies (http://www.newsweek.com/connecticut-judge-dismisses-gun-manufacturers-motion-dismiss-447918)
titsonritz
04-15-16, 00:04
Pretty sure it will be overturned on appeal. The PLCAA is pretty straight forward. Nothing the companies did violated the law. This is simply another activist judge not following the laws.
So am I, I just saw it pop up and since it was semi-related to this thread I thought I'd post it.
bloodlord77
04-15-16, 00:04
4. Still churning out crap barrels with out of spec chambers. Here's what happened when the 5.56 chamber reamer met the Bushmaster. (see below).
38956
Ok. I know its probably a noobish question, but is that brass on the reamer?
titsonritz
04-15-16, 00:28
Ok. I know its probably a noobish question, but is that brass on the reamer?
No. It is out of spec chamber shavings, had the chamber been in spec there would be minimal to no shavings. By using the reamer the chamber is now a dimensionally proper 5.56x45 chamber. In other words he "fixed" the turd (considering what he had to work with in the first place).
RedLightning
04-15-16, 10:07
I honestly want a Bushmaster stripped lower for my next build just because the media always seems to demonize them.
Isn't Bushmaster part of Remington now? The Sandy Hook shooters used a Bushmaster AR and a lawsuit has been allowed to go forward against Remington, etc.
I had several from1997 on. The older ones were good rifles. Haven't owned one of the Freedom Group rifles or a Windham. If I were in the market, I would give Windham a shot, though.
Remington and Bushmaster (few others) all fly under Freedom Group's flag.
Isn't Bushmaster part of Remington now? The Sandy Hook shooters used a Bushmaster AR and a lawsuit has been allowed to go forward against Remington, etc.
titsonritz
04-15-16, 12:42
Remington and Bushmaster (few others) all fly under Freedom Group's flag.
What is Freedom Group? (http://freedom-group.com/)
We are the world's leading innovator, designer, manufacturer and marketer of firearms, ammunition and related products for the hunting, shooting sports, law enforcement and military markets. As one of the largest manufacturers in the world of firearms and ammunition, we have some of the most globally recognized brands including Remington®, Bushmaster® Firearms, DPMS/Panther Arms™, Marlin®, H&R®, The Parker Gun™, Mountain Khakis®, Advanced Armament Corp. ®, Dakota Arms®, Para™ USA and Barnes® Bullets.
Ah, yes, Freedom Group.
Aren't they the world's leading innovator, designer, manufacturer and marketer of firearms??
I think I read something about that recently.
:)
"...of the highest quality for demanding applications in the commercial, law enforcement and defense markets around the world."
Wow. Now there's some crafty marketing.
What is Freedom Group? (http://freedom-group.com/)
We are the world's leading innovator, designer, manufacturer and marketer of firearms, ammunition and related products for the hunting, shooting sports, law enforcement and military markets. As one of the largest manufacturers in the world of firearms and ammunition, we have some of the most globally recognized brands including Remington®, Bushmaster® Firearms, DPMS/Panther Arms™, Marlin®, H&R®, The Parker Gun™, Mountain Khakis®, Advanced Armament Corp. ®, Dakota Arms®, Para™ USA and Barnes® Bullets.
15 years ago I had a Bushmaster and thought it was a good rifle because I put about 1000 trouble free rounds through it while I shot at dirt clods, turtles, rocks, and stumps. After having studied AR's as a forum member, I understand why this brand is a poor choice for a knowledgeable shooter looking for a self defense weapon.
When the Ruger Mini-14 hit the market, I bought one and had a ball with it. I fired this attractive rifle 7-800 times and placed it behind my bedroom door and considered myself well armed. Years later, after learning that Texas troopers had poor service from these rifles, I sold it.
If the man on the street buys a Bushmaster or Ruger Mini-14, he is not likely to listen to anybody here about why it's not ideal. Actually, a few here have been offended when told the truth about what is and is not a good weapon choice. I bought two Savage Axis bolt rifle knowing that they have severe limitations. But everyday take note: I'll be shooting dirt clods, turtles, rocks, and stumps with them, and they wil serve my purpose admirably.
Recently an organization I work with had the opportunity to inspect and shoot both Bushys and Windham rifles. One of the main things we noticed was that barrel nuts where under torqued. One Windham had a barrel nut so loose it could not have had a torque value. That to us was a clear sign of inexperinced or non caring assemblers. Once we sorted that stuff out they all shot fine with xm193, m855, and Wolf. Each gun saw an average of 1500 rnds. All we did maintenance wise was apply just a bit of MPro7. We where just playing with them so Car buffers and SA bcgs didn't bother us. Most of our conclusion s where that they are ok beater or range rifles but lacking for real use. They also do not provide any value when better rifles can be picked up for the same $.
BangBang77
04-15-16, 16:34
Bushmaster never was much of anything. I constantly hear about the "old" Bushmaster and Windham is the next best thing to Astroglide, but they have never been "good". Same junk as before.
I agree with IG that back during the early days, you either went with a Colt (sometimes impossible to find and if found, the price was unreasonable), an Armalite, or a Bushmaster. They put some options out that other manufacturers weren't at what was thought at the time to be somewhat decent quality by the general populous. I actually had an early Patrolman's Carbine back during the ban era. I had to stake the castle nut and the gas key for starters. I also had too numerous to count bolt-over malfunctions due to what I thought at the time was severe over-gassing. I never did get that carbine to run reliably enough to feel good about it, but it's all I could afford at the time so I rolled with it.
I would never, for any reason imaginable, recommend or condone the purchase of another of their rifles. There is simply no need to lean in that direction when you can grab a 6920 or a BCM for little additional cost. My ass is worth more to me than the additional $100-$200 cost difference between a known manufacturer and a manufacturer known to take short cuts.
I'll catch flack for this, but my circa-'96 ban Bushy I bought new was comparable in build quality, toughness, accuracy etc. to the Colts I've owned. They used to be high quality rifles. Around '02-'03 is when I paid enough attention to notice they weren't what they used to be.
My experiences echo yours. BM barrels, BCGs, FCGs, etc. were of same or similar quality to Colt, especially in the '90s.
Maybe Soros owns Freedom group and that is all part of the plan...
Do some research on Cerberus Capital, a hedge fund that owned Freedom Group.
I had several from1997 on. The older ones were good rifles. Haven't owned one of the Freedom Group rifles or a Windham. If I were in the market, I would give Windham a shot, though.
A friend of mine has a Wyndham and seems happy with it. I've not vetted it, and he has but a few rounds through it. I'll try to get him out to the range and report back
I have both a Windham and a BCM. With the Windham as it came: full auto carrier with gas key staked comparable to my BCM carrier. Batch tested bolt and barrel, MPI only if I am not mistaken. Barrel is 1/9 twist 4150 cmv steel (the 1195 or whatever number they use for mil spec). Bolt is carpenter 158 and shot peened. CAR buffer and commercial receiver extension, not staked. No T marking on receiver. No F front sight base nor is barrel parkerised (sp) under front sight base. I have around 2.5k rounds through it roughly. I have added a kmr rail, shaved front sight post and installed a bcm mil spec receiver extension with stock with an h buffer (an h2 or h3 would most likely work better). I have had m193 pop 2 primers that is mostly what I shoot in it. I however did put some 77 grain otm made by IMI and out of 10 rounds I blew like 3 primers. Same ammo in my BCM gun ran with zero issues (20 rounds or so) and was quite accurate to boot :) . I suspect the chamber is tight, but I am no gun smith by any means. Take this for what it's worth. If I had to do it all over again I would have skipped the Windham and paid the extra bit for a BCM.
No. It is out of spec chamber shavings, had the chamber been in spec there would be no shavings. By using the reamer the chamber is now a dimensionally proper 5.56x45 chamber. In other words he "fixed" the turd (considering what he had to work with in the first place).
Shavings may be present even with a quality barrel manufactured to spec, depending on the reamer. As an example, Ned's cuts to a generous spec and has removed material in Colts and BCMs. Other reamers may vary.
titsonritz
04-15-16, 20:28
Shavings may be present even with a quality barrel manufactured to spec, depending on the reamer. As an example, Ned's cuts to a generous spec and has removed material in Colts and BCMs. Other reamers may vary.
Granted, I probably should have said "minimal to no shavings". Fixed.
I have tried Ned's reamer in a BCM barrel, Sabre Defense barrel, Colt and SIONICS and the reamer never removed any material at all.
Evil Black Rifle
04-15-16, 22:36
I have a mid 1990's AWB Bushy, and a recent Patrolman's carbine. Both are accurate and have had no breakages, and no failures to feed/fire/extract. Lack of Parkerizing under the FSB is not a functional issue, nor is lack of staking, as I own a hammer and punch. Both the old and new BCG were properly staked at the factory.
Good for you. Still doesn't change the fact that thousands of Bushamsters are not made correctly and lack the most basic things like correct FSB's, buffers, carriers, etc..
I have a mid 1990's AWB Bushy, and a recent Patrolman's carbine. Both are accurate and have had no breakages, and no failures to feed/fire/extract. Lack of Parkerizing under the FSB is not a functional issue, nor is lack of staking, as I own a hammer and punch. Both the old and new BCG were properly staked at the factory.
Evil Black Rifle
04-17-16, 19:18
Still doesn't change the fact that thousands of Bushamsters are not made correctly ......
Your dislike for Bushmaster is not a secret. I just wonder how they could have survived, making hundreds of thousands of rifles since 1976, if everything they made was junk. Back in the day it was ABC, and nobody complained.
Had you said that they are a hobby grade rifle, and people whose job description includes carrying an AR type rifle may want a different brand name rifle, I would agree. But, even being a hobby grade rifle they are capable of running well when needed, or being upgraded if they don't.
Your dislike for Bushmaster is not a secret. I just wonder how they could have survived, making hundreds of thousands of rifles since 1976, if everything they made was junk. Back in the day it was ABC, and nobody complained.
Had you said that they are a hobby grade rifle, and people whose job description includes carrying an AR type rifle may want a different brand name rifle, I would agree. But, even being a hobby grade rifle they are capable of running well when needed, or being upgraded if they don't.
I believe part of the reason they continue to "survive" is because the uninformed buy into the Bushmaster name. Most people who buy a bushmaster will never shoot it enough for problems to develop or would even realize there was a problem. There are bushmaster rifles performing admirably in real world use. But there is also a lot of documented evidence of their issues. As stated previously I have seen more than one with under torqued barrel nuts.
And that's the crux of the issue. Most people do not want to spend anymore than they have to. These same people will only rarely shoot the rifles they buy. You might be surprised at how many have them for years, and haven't fired them at all.
If their lives were to ever depend on their rifles reliability, it would totally surprise them.
Many lately have only bought one because they think the rifles are about to be banned, so any one will do.
This keeps all the lower end makers in business.
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titsonritz
04-17-16, 22:28
I know I'll never own another one.
556BlackRifle
04-18-16, 00:38
I know I'll never own another one.
I'd say I have about as much chance another Bushwacker as I do owning an R51. No thanks freedom group.
The same reason that Hipoints sell, Taurus, etc... The problem is that people assume everyone who has or has to use a substandard AR has a choice. That is far from the truth. When we had Bushmasters in Iraq it was because someone made the choice without understanding the shortcomings. The same goes with police depts. etc...
You can argue all day long. But, I have seen and experienced it first hand. Not, 10 or 100 or 300 but 500. That in addition to the ones I see all the time in my classes.
Your dislike for Bushmaster is not a secret. I just wonder how they could have survived, making hundreds of thousands of rifles since 1976, if everything they made was junk. Back in the day it was ABC, and nobody complained.
Had you said that they are a hobby grade rifle, and people whose job description includes carrying an AR type rifle may want a different brand name rifle, I would agree. But, even being a hobby grade rifle they are capable of running well when needed, or being upgraded if they don't.
The same reason that Hipoints sell, Taurus, etc... The problem is that people assume everyone who has or has to use a substandard AR has a choice. That is far from the truth. When we had Bushmasters in Iraq it was because someone made the choice without understanding the shortcomings. The same goes with police depts. etc...
You can argue all day long. But, I have seen and experienced it first hand. Not, 10 or 100 or 300 but 500. That in addition to the ones I see all the time in my classes.
Agreed The people who argue for cheap guns are the same jack wagons that buy a gun for ccw and never shoot it, cause they "know" its reliable... cough (insert cheap gun) cough.
If the finish is bad, it will rust in the field, good thing it never rains when we need them, but hey if you use them at the range when its sunny and warm
Your all good.
If the parts were not to spec or the parts arent staked, then the gun is not to spec. That by its very nature means it it unsafe, period. Think if the simple qc stuff is not right or to spec what else is. Ps there is a reason materials are called out on a print. Anyone who designs or builds machines will tell you there is a reason things are built to spec/print
to the staking if you didn't fix it your self what would happen if you needed the rifle to work to save your life and the screw walked out
Your clearly going to justify your puchases no matter what anyone says. So good luck. I hope you never find out if the parts weren't to spec. It only needs to happen once
I have a mid 1990's AWB Bushy, and a recent Patrolman's carbine. Both are accurate and have had no breakages, and no failures to feed/fire/extract. Lack of Parkerizing under the FSB is not a functional issue, nor is lack of staking, as I own a hammer and punch. Both the old and new BCG were properly staked at the factory.
The same reason that Hipoints sell, Taurus, etc... The problem is that people assume everyone who has or has to use a substandard AR has a choice. That is far from the truth. When we had Bushmasters in Iraq it was because someone made the choice without understanding the shortcomings. The same goes with police depts. etc...
You can argue all day long. But, I have seen and experienced it first hand. Not, 10 or 100 or 300 but 500. That in addition to the ones I see all the time in my classes.
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Bushmaster sucks but I feel bad for the guys that bought into the promise of the ACR.
Bushmaster's quality was decent back in the 90's given the choices available back then. Their quality has steadily declined from components used, rifle assemblers who don't know what they are doing, and bad QC. They are a hobby gun and maybe fine for those that shoot 100 rds on a static range every other month or so. There are many AR platform manufactures out there . Most are just making price point guns to capitalize on the general publics desire to own the AR platform. It doesn't matter how big the gun manufacturer, or how long they've been a round....most aren't suitable for hard use
I had a friends son that wanted a rifle. I tried to explain the difference in quality and spec and why to buy a better built rifle to last him. His attitude was that he isn't using this rifle overseas . He bought a Ruger AR556. I went over the rifle with him before taking him shooting . The rifle did not impress me- I had to change the firing pin retainer pin as it was so bent, it wouldn't go back in- brand new rifle( first time dis-assembled). Semi auto carrier, light staking on gas key, no staked castle nut, heavy and gritty trigger ( worse then. Milspec).... We go shoot it and rifle isn't even hitting target backer at 50 yds. They were way off- had to spot impacts on berm and walk them / adjust sights to the target The sad thing is that he could have bought a quality rifle for 1-2 hundred more then he paid.
Your dislike for Bushmaster is not a secret. I just wonder how they could have survived, making hundreds of thousands of rifles since 1976, if everything they made was junk. Back in the day it was ABC, and nobody complained.
Had you said that they are a hobby grade rifle, and people whose job description includes carrying an AR type rifle may want a different brand name rifle, I would agree. But, even being a hobby grade rifle they are capable of running well when needed, or being upgraded if they don't.
I have no dog in this fight, but that's the lamest of arguments to use for the long term existence of any product.
Anyone who designs or builds machines will tell you there is a reason things are built to spec/print
to the staking if you didn't fix it your self what would happen if you needed the rifle to work to save your life and the screw walked out
Your clearly going to justify your puchases no matter what anyone says. So good luck. I hope you never find out if the parts weren't to spec. It only needs to happen once
Don't take me wrong, but I think the issue that is often overlooked is an assessment of needs versus wants. Stay with me....how many civilian users have actually 'needed' an AR to save their bacon?
Next consider the shrinking middle class and their also shrinking discretionary spending. If I have 1000.00 a year to spend for shooting sports, and I'm serious about home defense, it may be in my best interest to ensure that I have a totally reliable pistol, light, and gear to carry said pistol plus ammo to practice with. So I take care of that one year, the next year I decide I want an AR. It may not be totally wrong for me to buy a lower-tier AR, since with my budget of 1000.00, combined with my need to maintain proficiency with both the handgun and rifle isn't going to allow me to short 6,000 rounds a year through both weapons.
I think that is the position many of the folks we are talking about find themselves in. Additionally they may not know that a 'quality' bottom end Colt costs only 150 -200 more. Even then, 150 to 200 is a hunk of the total budget.
Yes, I agree that police agencies, security forces at nuclear reactors, armored car guards, and most importantly, the military, need a top tier weapon.
Part of my job is to teach rifle classes to LE. I've had Colts, Bushmasters, Olys, Rock River, etc. go down on the line. Usually a trip to the range house and a part gets them going again. Key point with any of hard use weapon is inspection and maintenance.
All I'm saying, is don't look down upon the guy with the Bushmaster, at least he wants an AR.
I feel like I need to justify myself. For 5 years, my wife was in college bringing in no income. I supported 2 kids, and maintained an acceptable standard of living and we didn't go hungry, and I brought home 5-600 a week. I still had a rifle. Wasn't a colt or BCM, but I had to float funding from 1 project to the next. I owned Taurus, Springfield, Olympic, RGUNZ, Smith and Wesson, Glock, Palmetto, Anderson, and I could keep going. And she is out of school now, an RN. We have finally gotten into our own house and have a stable life. I recently sold my G19 and my last rifle to get the utilities on.
Today, I dropped off my first upper that I have built from scratch to have the FSB pinned, and am putting the lower together on lunch today. Is it a BCM, no. But I am committed to see it thru when it breaks, and will be upgrading the broken parts as it goes. Tomorrow, I am picking up a very used Gen 3 G19. This is what I can afford at the moment. Am I settling on the rifle? Yeah, but I am eager to shoot and train. But I haven't kept food out of my kids mouths.
Sometimes folks do what they gotta do to get going. I guess its perspective in saying my dpms is as good as your LMT. that is not true and I totally get it.
Saying all that, Ive never owned a Bushmaster.
Evil Black Rifle
04-18-16, 11:12
Part of my job is to teach rifle classes to LE. I've had Colts, Bushmasters, Olys, Rock River, etc. go down on the line. Usually a trip to the range house and a part gets them going again. Key point with any of hard use weapon is inspection and maintenance.
Pretty much on point to my argument. It is entertaining to me how everybody assumes that I am trying to justify a purchase, how do you know what is in my gun safe ? Granted my sample size of Bushmaster is only 2, but they both work every time, and if necessary, upgrades are tinker-toy easy to install. 500 BM failures is still only a small percentage of the overall production, and I will freely admit more than any professional grade rifle, but 99.5% of AR owners will not be shooting a 1000 round class, or be using a personally purchased rifle in combat. I do think that Quality Assurance is should be the at the highest level for any firearm, but Management looks at QA as an overhead cost that adds no value to the product, instead as a necessary procedure.
I have been a machinist for 20+ years, many of those years in the Aerospace industry. I fully understand materials selection, tolerances and fits, how mechanisms function, QA sampling/testing schemes, and test procedures. Presently I am in QA, and we send out numerous job lots for FPI and Mag Particle testing. Hesse/Vulcan/Blackthorne is just across town, so I do know what a truly junk AR looks like.
IG may be biased because the other side was shooting at him while he repaired Bushmasters and other similar products that found their way into the sand box. His experience may have left him with zero confidence in certain brands.
Now that prices are down, now is the time to purchase a Colt or similar brand.
IG may be biased because the other side was shooting at him while he repaired Bushmasters and other similar products that found their way into the sand box. His experience may have left him with zero confidence in certain brands.
And I don't think anyone blames him one bit for that bias.
RobertTheTexan
04-21-16, 00:13
Don't take me wrong, but I think the issue that is often overlooked is an assessment of needs versus wants. Stay with me....how many civilian users have actually 'needed' an AR to save their bacon?
Next consider the shrinking middle class and their also shrinking discretionary spending. If I have 1000.00 a year to spend for shooting sports, and I'm serious about home defense, it may be in my best interest to ensure that I have a totally reliable pistol, light, and gear to carry said pistol plus ammo to practice with. So I take care of that one year, the next year I decide I want an AR. It may not be totally wrong for me to buy a lower-tier AR, since with my budget of 1000.00, combined with my need to maintain proficiency with both the handgun and rifle isn't going to allow me to short 6,000 rounds a year through both weapons.
I think that is the position many of the folks we are talking about find themselves in. Additionally they may not know that a 'quality' bottom end Colt costs only 150 -200 more. Even then, 150 to 200 is a hunk of the total budget.
Yes, I agree that police agencies, security forces at nuclear reactors, armored car guards, and most importantly, the military, need a top tier weapon.
Part of my job is to teach rifle classes to LE. I've had Colts, Bushmasters, Olys, Rock River, etc. go down on the line. Usually a trip to the range house and a part gets them going again. Key point with any of hard use weapon is inspection and maintenance.
All I'm saying, is don't look down upon the guy with the Bushmaster, at least he wants an AR.
I think your comment rings more true than any other comment I've read. You're right. Some folks can only afford what they can afford, and are probably pretty proud to own that Walmart AR or Taurus.
That's an old overused bullshit argument. ANYONE can afford a Colt 6920, BCM MOD0, or similar. The problem is that we live in the microwave instant gratification society and people want it now, not in 4-6 months after saving.
I think your comment rings more true than any other comment I've read. You're right. Some folks can only afford what they can afford, and are probably pretty proud to own that Walmart AR or Taurus.
Don't take me wrong, but I think the issue that is often overlooked is an assessment of needs versus wants. Stay with me....how many civilian users have actually 'needed' an AR to save their bacon?
The question "How many?" is misleading and distracts us from the real issue. The real issue is, "Failure of critical life saving equipment can lead to the loss of life". For example, in modern commercial aviation, the engine fire suppression system is not needed very often. But when it IS needed, it's critical that it works correctly every time to save lives and millions of dollars of equipment. So it is with a self defense AR. Although it is rarely needed, when it is needed, failure could result in the loss of life
RobertTheTexan
04-21-16, 05:35
That's an old overused bullshit argument. ANYONE can afford a Colt 6920, BCM MOD0, or similar. The problem is that we live in the microwave instant gratification society and people want it now, not in 4-6 months after saving.
I can't argue the point about the instant gratification. I think that's evidenced in far more than AR's, (Just look at all the Dodges being driven around.). I saved for months and months to put together some of the parts I used on my AR. I saved for my LMT BCG and my DD barrel, my trigger and my optic, but I'm blessed enough that I can set aside dedicated money for that purpose. I don't know what lifestyle you're used to but I know more and more folks today that barely scrape by paycheck to paycheck and that's eating a lot of beans and a lot of Bologna and for them it's HARD to save up $1500 bucks for a quality weapon. Or they get some money saved and then something happens and their fund gets tapped because keeping the lights on or buying diapers are more important to mama than than the AR fund is. So they go out and they get what they can afford. I know folks that scrape by like this and so no sir I do not agree with your call of bullshit on my comment. These are guys who have learned the hard way you can't use a POS polymer lower on an AR, or sometimes they just give up trying to save for an "approved AR" and they end up buying an AK variant. No, you may be one of the most knowledgeable guys on the forum regarding AR's but I know too many damn good men who get what they can get and its not an elitist AR. They get what they can afford and as soon as they can they swap out a part or trade up for an upgrade they do. My friends know they aren't getting an "operator approved" BCM, but they are getting something and they are starting somewhere and I'll be damned if I look down at them over that.
RobertTheTexan
04-21-16, 07:02
That's an old overused bullshit argument. ANYONE can afford a Colt 6920, BCM MOD0, or similar. The problem is that we live in the microwave instant gratification society and people want it now, not in 4-6 months after saving.
[QUOTE=RobertTheTexan;2306780]I can't argue the point about the instant gratification. I think that's evidenced in far more than AR's, (Just look at all the Dodges being driven around.). I saved for months and months to put together some of the parts I used on my AR. I saved for my LMT BCG and my DD barrel, my trigger and my optic, but I'm blessed enough that I can set aside dedicated money for that purpose. I don't know what lifestyle you're used to but I know more and more folks today that barely scrape by paycheck to paycheck and that's eating a lot of beans and a lot of Bologna and for them it's HARD to save up $1500 bucks for a quality weapon.
I imagine that that Walmart guns sales are just going to continue to rise especially considering the current political situation. So I was thinking what can I do to help my friends who are in rough times. I really can't go out and buy them a weapon, but one thing I can do to do to keep crappy weapons out of their hands is encourage them to build. It's a lot easier to pick up a lower or upper here, and LPK there, and save up for the more quality parts than it is for them to plunk down $1500 bucks, or even $700-800 bucks at one time. I suggested that to a friend just last week who was debating buying a used weapon that wasn't a solid brand. I even offered to give him some spare parts to get him started. It seems to have worked, hopefully we can finish something decent before our next POTUS swaps nameplates and all hell breaks loose.
I know doesn't have a lot to do with Bushmaster, but was thinking how I could help those in my circle stay away from the Wallyworld AR's.
titsonritz
04-21-16, 12:02
If you can't afford 800-900 of a decent AR than get an 870 or 500/590, that would be better spent $$$ than a 450-500 AR.
If you can't afford 800-900 of a decent AR than get an 870 or 500/590, that would be better spent $$$ than a 450-500 AR.
I'd think the true take home of all this is there's better choices at the same price point as a BM and of course a used Colt always an option too. If people wish to ignore the advice of those who are genuine SME's on that topic, it's their loss and (possible) funeral if the intent/use of the gun is SD/HD/Duty.
Unfortunately WallyWorld ARs are a thing of the past. They came under pressure to remove all 'tactical' firearms and they quietly folded. Not really a secret anymore that it didn't have anything to do with sales/profits. They do receive A LOT of ebt/welfare money that .gov controls. Was nice seeing my local Walmarts stock LE6920s, 6940s, and SOCOMs...they sold well too.
I tend to think that most people who buy junk have plenty of other junk lying around that they could sell off to subsidize the purchase of something better.
There's a reason why Georgians dropped their bushmasters and went back to AK's during there war. And no it wasn't because it was an AR.
titsonritz
04-21-16, 15:59
There's a reason why Georgians dropped their bushmasters and went back to AK's during there war. And no it wasn't because it was an AR.
...but it sure does perpetuate some BS myths.
Are we really still having this discussion? I started working at a gun range right after getting out of the service and continually saw issue after issue with Bushy's and DPMS's. Failure eject, failure to feed (feed ramps), not to mention just all around inconsistencies with quality of finishes that I really just pushed friends the other way. I have a friend that has one and has used it more than anyone I know, but as another Marine vet, I know he cleans his rifle after 50 rds, and I haven't seen him really push it. It may work for him, but its just not for me, I put together a Palmetto for a brother in law that costs him $650 in parts, that is the way I'd go for a cheap option, or maybe the S&W M&P15 V2.
3ACR_Scout
04-21-16, 19:24
If people wish to ignore the advice of those who are genuine SME's on that topic, it's their loss and (possible) funeral if the intent/use of the gun is SD/HD/Duty.
The problem is that probably 90% of AR owners don't even know those SME exist, let alone have any contact with them in order to have the chance to listen to their advice. For every SME out there, there are a dozen gun shop owners and a hundred magazine ads in Barnes & Noble or the local newsstand telling them to buy BM, Windam, RRA, etc. Those same people are lucky if they even find AR15.com, and probably will never hear about this forum. I've mentioned this site to a half dozen people that I work with who are considering building or buying an AR, but joining and participating in a forum sounds like a lot of work to them when they just plan to buy one rifle that they can ask the gun shop and their brother or buddy for advice about. None of them had ever heard of BCM, LMT, or KAC until I brought them up as one of only 4 or 5 brands I recommended for a first rifle. Only one of them had heard of DD. My brother in law (who's also in the Army), who has an M&P-15, once said to me, "what I really want is a Bushmaster," with a far off look in his eye. I think I got through to him, but he ran off to wrangle his two little kids and probably promptly forgot about our conversation. Fortunately my brother listened to me and bought a BCM lower and BFH KMR upper. People these days are just too busy and don't know what they don't know. We're lucky if we get through to one in ten of them.
P.S. My first was a BM, bought right after the sunset. It's never had any issues, but it only had about 800 rounds through it before I lost confidence in it. It just didn't feel like a quality piece of equipment compared to a real M4. It literally killed my interest in ARs for about 7 years because I thought that was indicative of the quality of civilian rifles (there were no Colts to be had at the time). I'll dig it out again soon and see if I can get something to fail.
Dave
titsonritz
04-21-16, 20:25
Being an informed consumer is 100% the consumer's responsibility.
3ACR_Scout
04-21-16, 20:42
Of course it is, but how do they know if they're informed or not? It's like buying a car. Some people think they've read enough reviews and talked to enough people (including dealers) before making a purchase, but I would bet most people here spend more time researching ARs than they did the car that they're driving. How many people here participated in multiple online forums for a year or more before making their latest car purchase? Or their spouse's car purchase? I certainly didn't. I wouldn't have time to do that, plus my career, plus reading this and other forums. It's all about what our priorities are.
Good for you. Still doesn't change the fact that thousands of Bushamsters are not made correctly and lack the most basic things like correct FSB's, buffers, carriers, etc..
how are the receivers? if one were to replace everything on the rifle except for the upper and lower, would you consider it "duty grade" then?
I have tried Ned's reamer in a BCM barrel, Sabre Defense barrel, Colt and SIONICS and the reamer never removed any material at all.
excuse the uninformed question but are the chambers chrome lined on any of those barrels?
I know he cleans his rifle after 50 rds, and I haven't seen him really push it.
Every FIFTY ROUNDS?!?
When does he even find time to shoot the thing? :-) Maybe just a bore snake between mag changes?'
I bought a bushmaster M4A3 about a year ago because I was able to get it at a steal ($450 NIB).
I knew when I bought it that it would not be the rifle I used for serious purposes (Patrol, HD, etc.), as I already owned 3 BCM rifles, a couple AK74's, a stack of shotguns, and my department issues Daniel Defense rifles to those that would like one. I did figure that it would be a decent loaner rifle. I was aware of the issues that many people have had with them, at my department another officer bought one and when it was inspected prior to use it was discovered that the barrel had not been properly torqued down. This likely would not have been something that would have caused a kaboom the first time the weapon was fired, but it is very troubling. I figured that I knew enough to be able to spot anything glaring like that. It of course came with the semi auto bolt carrier, commercial receiver extension, lightweight buffer, and a questionable carry handle rear sight. The rifle had some problems out of the box with extracting after a fairly low round count (500 rounds in 2 hours). The weapon was being run fairly wet as I tend to run all of my ARs. I solved the problem by dropping in a BCM BCG. Once the bolt that the rifle came with was no longer being used it's extraction issues were resolved. I suspect that this also could have been resolved by using a BCM bolt rebuild kit. The rifle was over gassed, and I put in an H2 buffer to help mitigate the problem. The rifle did group reasonably well. The rear castle nut was staked (poorly), and the gas key was staked (properly). The weapon did have M4 feed ramps.
If you were going to buy the rifle for hard/serious purposes, I would tell you not to purchase. Usually they sell for 700(ish) by the time you upgrade the bolt, the buffer, and buy a decent rear sight you could have bought a Colt. If you upgrade the receiver extension, you could have bought a Colt for less.
I bought the weapon because of the low price, and the surplus of parts that I already owned that I thought would be able to resolve any issues that the rifle might have.
Bushmaster offers a sense of false value. You feel like you are getting a deal because they sell for less than a Colt, DD, LMT, BCM, FN, etc and many will tell you that it is a decent starter rifle that you can add onto/fix later. However in the long run you can avoid all of those issues by simply spending 200 more up front.
darkwater1967
08-12-16, 21:05
Not surprising, but this thread sounds a lot like the Old Marlin vs. Marlin after Freedom Group acquisition issues. They cut a lot of corners to keep Marlin a budget rifle brand and yet widened their profit margins at the same time. Canted front sights has been one of the top complaints, similar to what I've seen in this thread. Sad times in American manufacturing when the bean counters control the quality.
In any of what barrels?
excuse the uninformed question but are the chambers chrome lined on any of those barrels?
Not sure what you are asking.
how are the receivers? if one were to replace everything on the rifle except for the upper and lower, would you consider it "duty grade" then?
how are the receivers? if one were to replace everything on the rifle except for the upper and lower, would you consider it "duty grade" then?
That's like buying a remington 700, what's the point?
Just go with quality to avoid spending the same if not more to make it run properly.
who cares.
They don't give a shit about their customers and their employees are assholes.
556BlackRifle
08-13-16, 10:04
how are the receivers? if one were to replace everything on the rifle except for the upper and lower, would you consider it "duty grade" then?
That makes about as much sense as buying a Fiat and removing the drive train then replacing it with one from Toyota.
That makes about as much sense as buying a Fiat and removing the drive train then replacing it with one from Toyota.
or lipstick on a pig. [emoji481] [emoji1]
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None of my local independent gun shops carry Bushmasters. The only place where I can even find one is at a chain store like Cabelas. To me that speaks volumes.
None of my local independent gun shops carry Bushmasters. The only place where I can even find one is at a chain store like Cabelas. To me that speaks volumes.
Exactly.You really don't see people that are on top of their shit selling them anymore. Kind of sad considering that Bushmaster used to be somewhat respectable.
Canonshooter
08-14-16, 12:14
I'll catch flack for this, but my circa-'96 ban Bushy I bought new was comparable in build quality, toughness, accuracy etc. to the Colts I've owned. They used to be high quality rifles. Around '02-'03 is when I paid enough attention to notice they weren't what they used to be.
I have a complete lower that I purchased in that era and it has seen a lot of different uppers attached to it. It's still in use today but I've changed out most of the internals including the receiver extension with a mil-spec unit, the trigger group with a Giessele SSA and the safety with an ambi unit from BCM. FWIW, I never had any issues with it even when it was 100% Bushmaster.
We have a local class III dealer with an indoor range that rents out rifles. I take clients there for evening entertainment and I've rented a select fire Windham M4 multiple times and there's always issues with it. Gave up on it and rent a full auto Uzi carbine now instead, which always runs without a hitch.
Exactly.You really don't see people that are on top of their shit selling them anymore. Kind of sad considering that Bushmaster used to be somewhat respectable.
The OP apparently has been out of the loop regarding AR rifles for at least a decade, if not longer. I too remember the old "ABC" days when Armalite, Bushmaster, and Colt were the only real options out there, and for the time period they were decent. But in the last decade serious shooters have been demanding better ARs from the industry with military-grade or better components (does anyone even run half-moon BCG's anymore?), while companies like Bushmaster went the opposite route and got worse. Perhaps their current quality isn't as bad as their reputation has gotten, but the local gun shops avoid carrying them like the Plague yet will gladly sell Ruger, S&W, and Stag rifles all day long. I also see plenty of Windhams and FN's on the shelves as well, along with Colts when they're not perpetually out of stock. One local shop owner told me he likes carrying Windhams simply because he likes the backstory of the company, leading me to suspect he hates today's Bushmaster for the exact same reason.
Sandy Hook Lawsuit: Judge Rules Against Gun Companies (http://www.newsweek.com/connecticut-judge-dismisses-gun-manufacturers-motion-dismiss-447918)
It's really sad that in our Country of laws, there is actually a sitting judge who may feel that a manufacturer is responsible for what an individual did with their product. The era of personal responsibility is long gone IMO. If this somehow holds Bushmaster responsible , even though they did absolutely nothing wrong, that opens a lot of doors.
That would be like being able to sue a vehicle manufacturer if you crash their vehicle and cause injury, it would be the fault of the manufacturer, not the individual behind the wheel.....Sad, very sad.
Progressive judges make their own laws. How does that surprise you? The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act specifically forbids lawsuits of this type, but judges like the one in CT obviously don't care. What blows me away even more is not that the Sandy Hook families are arguing that Bushmaster somehow broke the law selling the weapon to Adam Lanza's mom, but rather they claim that the AR-15 is overly destructive and too dangerous to sell to civilians and that Bushmaster should have known better to be doing so. That's their argument! Apparently a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with magnum buckshot isn't very destructive and thus is okay for us feeble civilians to own, but a rifle that fires a varmint cartridge isn't.
Progressive judges make their own laws. How does that surprise you? The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act specifically forbids lawsuits of this type, but judges like the one in CT obviously don't care. What blows me away even more is not that the Sandy Hook families are arguing that Bushmaster somehow broke the law selling the weapon to Adam Lanza's mom, but rather they claim that the AR-15 is overly destructive and too dangerous to sell to civilians and that Bushmaster should have known better to be doing so. That's their argument! Apparently a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with magnum buckshot isn't very destructive and thus is okay for us feeble civilians to own, but a rifle that fires a varmint cartridge isn't.
I make the shotgun argument all the time. I've even went as far as to make a video to prove the point. Sadly, it was just a waste of time. These ass hats already have their minds made up. Trying to show them how things they don't understand work is about as useful as nailing jello to a wall.
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