View Full Version : The Citadel considers first-ever uniform exception: allowing a Muslim hijab
Whiskey_Bravo
04-15-16, 09:06
FFS, where do we draw the line? I am not even sure what to say anymore. The slow progression and infiltration of BS like this is getting old.
Thoughts on this? Will the request be granted? If so why not the Colander to honer the flying spaghetti monster?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2016/04/14/the-citadel-considers-first-ever-uniform-exception-allowing-a-muslim-hijab/
The Citadel is considering a request from an admitted student that she be allowed to wear a hijab in keeping with her Muslim faith, a move that would be an unprecedented exception to the school’s longstanding uniform requirements.
If the request for the traditional Muslim hair covering is granted, it apparently would be the first exception made to the Citadel’s uniform, which all cadets at the storied public military college in South Carolina are required to wear at nearly all times. (At beaches, for example, college rules stipulate that, “Cadets will change into appropriate swimwear upon arrival and change back into uniform when departing.”) A spokeswoman said that to her knowledge, in its nearly 175-year history, the school has never granted a religious, or other, accommodation that resulted in a change to the uniform.
Averageman
04-15-16, 09:09
Good Lord!
Why don't we just forget everything that made America great and give an exception to the rules for everyone concerning anything?
Do they make an exception for a Jew who wants to wear a yarmulke? If so, then the same would pertain to a Muslim who wants to wear what they believe to be a religiously required scarf? Or how about a Sikh who is religiously obligated to wear their long hair in a turban?
Slow???
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Good Lord!
Why don't we just forget everything that made America great and give an exception to the rules for everyone concerning anything?
Since when has discriminating against people's religious conviction been considered "American"?
Whiskey_Bravo
04-15-16, 09:21
Since when has discriminating against people's religious conviction been considered "American"?
WTF are you talking about? They have never made an exception for their uniform policy. You know the policy going in. If it doesn't work for you then don't do it. It's not discrimination.
Whiskey_Bravo
04-15-16, 09:23
Do they make an exception for a Jew who wants to wear a yarmulke? If so, then the same would pertain to a Muslim who wants to wear what they believe to be a religiously required scarf? Or how about a Sikh who is religiously obligated to wear their long hair in a turban?
If you would have read the title you could answer your own question, but in your haste to post liberal throwup you failed to read I guess.
Averageman
04-15-16, 10:08
If I valued liberal ideology, I would go to UC Berkeley. I’d wear, say, and do whatever I wanted and it wouldn’t cost the university any time or money for me to do so. If I valued conservative ideology and wanted to challenge myself in a military environment, I would go to the Citadel. It’s no secret that you can’t wear what you want when you’re at the Citadel. You’re punished even for wearing what you want when you’re not on campus. But, those who come here are signing up for that, no matter how much they hate it (we do). So it’s not unfair to those people who want to join an organization with the intentions of excluding themselves from the regulations, it’s unfair to those who practice within the realms of those regulations. It’s unfair to the school having to change rules and adjust to the individual, when the individual could’ve gone to USC without incident. Your expression of self shouldn’t place a burden of cost on others.
This girl should be welcomed to the Corps with open arms, as should any person of any religion, race, gender, or identity. That’s equality. It’s not equality to let one of those groups follow a different set of rules
A good quote from the article above.
We've fallen in to the trap of "Special Snowflakes". If you want to be a "Special Snowflake" there are places built for you to go and be all well, "Special Snowflakey". all 24/7/365. The Citadel just isn't one of those places, you can't have the honor of attending as a Freshman and walk in the door and be a "Special Snowflake".
You set aside your individuality, preform by the Dress Code and Rules and if you say your prayers, take your vitamins and work and study hard you become a Citadel Graduate, thus making you another type of "Special Snowflake", but you kinda earned that one.
KalashniKEV
04-15-16, 10:17
WTF are you talking about? They have never made an exception for their uniform policy.
Pshhh... so what?
If they wanted to change the uniform to French maid costumes or Cowboy attire or Deep Sea Diving suits they could.
What's the big issue... I mean... it's not like the Citadel is only for White, male students...
Oh, wait...
http://i.perezhilton.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/citadel-cadets-kkk-hoods-christmas-ghosts__oPt.jpg
brickboy240
04-15-16, 10:17
My guess is that she would probably wash out after a semester or two anyways.
Yes...this whole idea of "special snowflakes" is just getting old, sorry.
Whiskey_Bravo
04-15-16, 10:29
Pshhh... so what?
If they wanted to change the uniform to French maid costumes or Cowboy attire or Deep Sea Diving suits they could.
What's the big issue... I mean... it's not like the Citadel is only for White, male students...
Oh, wait...
How did I know you would show up.
How did I know you would show up.
Because he consistently wages "the never ending battle for truth, justice, and the American way?"
Seriously though, the Citadel is kind of for special snowflakes, kind of pricey, and if you look at the pictures of incoming cadets it is fairly obvious that there are some Walter Mitty's among them.
All that being said, the institution has a good history and legacy, I doubt the foundations of that legacy would crumble if they allowed exemptions to uniform and grooming based on religious faith.
If indeed they want principled students, with the potential to become leaders, wouldn't they want someone who takes a principled stand on their faith? (let's not get into the all Muslims are terrorists thing, okay?)
They could design a turban, a hijab, or a kippah, that went with their differing uniforms without compromising discipline and appearance.
Can't remember if citadel is state or private, but it's not Federal.
The school could allow what it wants, but the ROTC side has to abide by AR-670 type standards. Which currently do not allow hajibs, best I can recall.
I personally could see the Army being forced to change this, as long as it did not impair performance of duties.
Think I'll get a line of Scorpion and UCP hajibs on the market ASAP.
They allow yarmalukes and religious emblems now... Going to be hard to stop this.
As an aside, I've observed hajibs on international cadets competing at West Point. Did not seem to impair them in simulated combat and exercises. (Yep, I know it's not the real deal. And don't confuse the female infantry issue with this one)
Averageman
04-15-16, 12:28
As an aside, I've observed hajibs on international cadets competing at West Point. Did not seem to impair them in simulated combat and exercises. (Yep, I know it's not the real deal. And don't confuse the female infantry issue with this one)
And those Students are always kept to the same standards as our Cadets, right?
Apples and Artichokes my friend.
I remember attending a military school or two with "International Students", most seemed to graduate with a keen understanding of American Women and how to make it through an eight hour day with a screaming hangover.
Teammate of mine graduated from the citadel s couple years ago, and they never made exceptions for Jewish members.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
And those Students are always kept to the same standards as our Cadets, right?
Apples and Artichokes my friend.
I remember attending a military school or two with "International Students", most seemed to graduate with a keen understanding of American Women and how to make it through an eight hour day with a screaming hangover.
International cadets at USMA (West Point) do have to adhere the majority of standards, but do wear their own military's uniform of the various types. I don't know that they are held to AR-670 for haircuts, etc. Most I've seen have not been out of alignment. And most were trying pretty hard to do well, be taken seriously.
Cadets are expected to be exemplary in terms of AR-670 (and really, all things militaryish), so historically they've been pretty strict.
Sandhurst competition is when you see the big variance in grooming & uniforms, as it's cadets from other countries' military officer schools. Some are pretty dialed in (Sandhurst in the UK, Canada, etc), others not so much. It's interesting seeing beards & 'staches, etc.
My point was, I'm not sure this is a battle the Army could win, as most reasonable Hijab's are not going going to interfere with equipment, etc. And the huge "we need more women" push will reinforce that desire to accommodate.
I'm still trying to figure out how the Sikh turban can accommodate a helmet, but that's another battle the Army is dealing with.
The other question is if Citadel allows students not in the Corps of Cadets, and thus, ROTC. I seem to recall that happening a while back, but I could be wrong.
ColtSeavers
04-15-16, 13:25
It's their call afaik. I just hope that if thy do make an exemption, it is universal for all faiths/religions across the board.
I do find myself wondering though, if one decides to attend a place like this, with standardized rules and no exeptions, would their faith be any less or Diety of choice 'love' them any less for adhering to this institution's rules? If so, I find myself thinking it's a faith problem, as opposed to an institutional problem.
Good article on Sikhs in the US Army.
By the way, if you do not know the history of the Sikhs, they are some of the baddest of the bad asses on the planet when it comes to being warriors.
http://www.army.mil/article/36339/sikh-soldiers-allowed-to-serve-retain-their-articles-of-faith/
KalashniKEV
04-15-16, 13:30
The other question is if Citadel allows students not in the Corps of Cadets, and thus, ROTC. I seem to recall that happening a while back, but I could be wrong.
Only around 30% of each class actually joins the military. Same for VMI.
Most go on to take over one of their daddy's car dealerships.
Only around 30% of each class actually joins the military. Same for VMI.
So they are not forced to be corps of cadets? From memory, they commit or not as juniors like at USMA. So they could be cadets, but not commit as a junor and not commission.
It's their call afaik. I just hope that if thy do make an exemption, it is universal for all faiths/religions across the board.
I do find myself wondering though, if one decides to attend a place like this, with standardized rules and no exeptions, would their faith be any less or Diety of choice 'love' them any less for adhering to this institution's rules? If so, I find myself thinking it's a faith problem, as opposed to an institutional problem.
Nothing in the Koran about hijabs as I understand things. And by all accounts there are some serious serving US Military members of the Islamic faith, who manage to work around this type of thing.
When you go someplace like the Citadel, you honor their traditions, they don't adopt yours.
I'm sure if someone showed up at Mecca wearing a yamaka there would be no problems.
I don't know what to think.
But yeah I'm pretty sure if I set up a bacon and BBQ stand in some places they'd run me out on a rail at best.
But it would ultimately be their loss
If it's a special snowflake exception for 1 person, 1 religion, 1 sexual preference then **** that noise. If it's a change of conduct applied fairly to all comers then I won't get my panties in too big a bunch. We are either truly tolerant of others view points or we aren't. Pick one a stick to it.
KalashniKEV
04-15-16, 16:10
So they are not forced to be corps of cadets? From memory, they commit or not as juniors like at USMA.
No.
That's not true and it's never been that way.
It's just a college where they wear uniforms and do silly boarding school corny stuff/ food fight/ pranks and they consequently have a larger than average ROTC program.
When you go someplace like the Citadel, you honor their traditions, they don't adopt yours.
You'd think. I've had direct visibility to USMA (West Point) for several years, and see how hard it is to hold the line against external pressure to change, even if you feel it compromises core values and effectiveness, much less traditions.
Not that all change is bad, but the PC onslaught is having a big effect. And getting worse.
CAIR got a concession on this for JROTC. Not quite the Army, but affiliated. With the Sikh and Rabbi exceptions made recently, I predict it's just a matter of time for hijabs.
The current whitehouse has pretty much eliminated anyone who could hold the line on compromises that would weaken the military, and especially the Army. Females on subs? Logistically complicated, some sexual dynamics to deal with. But that pales in comparison to females in the Infantry, knowing the current IN standard, especially for officers.
So my (sad) view is that the powers that be are more than willing to compromise the military to achieve a political goal. Either they don't realize the damage, or they don't care, but the result is the same.
I'm glad my son tabbed in a class with no females as I expect withing 3-4 years we will see the ranger tab removed as a differentiator for officers for promotion & selection purposes. And the IN pipeline will accordingly have to be modified, as currently the IN officer prep is essentially the Ranger School standard.
But this gets back to the core issue: Equal opportunity does not automatically translate to Equal Outcomes. But the gov has a very hard time with that, and "we must have equal outcomes" is trickling into the Army it appears.
No.
That's not true and it's never been that way.
It's just a college where they wear uniforms and do silly boarding school corny stuff/ food fight/ pranks and they consequently have a larger than average ROTC program.
Interesting. From memory, ROTC scholarships recipient have to commit just prior to the Junior year.
At USMA they take an affirmation oath the night before the first day of class of junior ("Cow") year. After that point, if they do not graduate and fulfill their 5 years, they have a huge bill to pay. There are occasional exceptions allowed, but the option is serve in an undesirable MOS as enlisted to satisfy your 5 years, or pay back costs incurred, which can be in the range of $150-250k. But first two years, no harm no foul.
titsonritz
04-15-16, 16:45
Why not just let everybody wear whatever they want?
I am an Orthodox Jew, a good friend of mine is a lawyer and an Orthodox Rabbi. When he goes to court it is without a head covering of any kind. No problem.
This on the other hand is total 100% BS.
The sooner Americans figure out the difference between so called radical Islam and Islam in none, the better a chance their is for victory. One of the strategies of Islamic warfare is infiltration of the enemies society and force changes to favor Islam.
With the Sikh and Rabbi exceptions made recently, I predict it's just a matter of time for hijabs.
Well there is your actual problem. If you make an exception for one, you must make an exception for anyone with a similar case. Swear one day I'm going to reestablish the Church of Dionysus and force everyone to cater to my religious needs.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
04-15-16, 18:33
Gosh, I remember joining an organization (voluntarily) where I was no longer allowed to even call myself I or me (I was just "this recruit"). My individualism and beliefs were internalized for the betterment of the organization I joined. I knew that when I VOLUNTEERED for it. Had I been forced to do that, I would've demanded my beliefs and individualism back. But no, I joined knowing the rules.
Interesting. From memory, ROTC scholarships recipient have to commit just prior to the Junior year.
At USMA they take an affirmation oath the night before the first day of class of junior ("Cow") year. After that point, if they do not graduate and fulfill their 5 years, they have a huge bill to pay. There are occasional exceptions allowed, but the option is serve in an undesirable MOS as enlisted to satisfy your 5 years, or pay back costs incurred, which can be in the range of $150-250k. But first two years, no harm no foul.
Cadets have to take ROTC all four years. They do not have to sign a contract to commission. In fact, if you knew you weren't going into the military you could take Army ROTC one year, Navy the next and so on. If you aren't pursuing a commission you don't have to do military training on the weekends, take PFT's, etc. If you're there on a ROTC scholarship then you've already obligated yourself, but that has nothing to do with the college you attend.
It's my opinion they should refuse the request. She knows the rules and what's required wear at The Citadel. If she doesn't want to follow those rules she can choose any of a thousand other colleges. For those who don't understand why the military does what it does - everyone looks the same for a very good reason. For her to want an exception is selfish and will only make her stand out as an individual. Not something you want in that kind of environment.
I hope the school administration holds firm and tells her she is welcome to join the corps if she follows the rules that have been in place since 1842.
Gosh, I remember joining an organization (voluntarily) where I was no longer allowed to even call myself I or me (I was just "this recruit"). My individualism and beliefs were internalized for the betterment of the organization I joined. I knew that when I VOLUNTEERED for it. Had I been forced to do that, I would've demanded my beliefs and individualism back. But no, I joined knowing the rules.
Sounds so simple doesn't it?
Moose-Knuckle
04-16-16, 01:56
Why not just let everybody wear whatever they want?
And why they're at it let the boys use the girls room.
Moose-Knuckle
04-16-16, 02:00
I am an Orthodox Jew, a good friend of mine is a lawyer and an Orthodox Rabbi. When he goes to court it is without a head covering of any kind. No problem.
This on the other hand is total 100% BS.
The sooner Americans figure out the difference between so called radical Islam and Islam in none, the better a chance their is for victory. One of the strategies of Islamic warfare is infiltration of the enemies society and force changes to favor Islam.
More than a few of us understand this but some of our fellow countrymen attempt to label us as Nazis/Stormfronters/racist. Ironic when one takes into account the history of the Nazis and their islamic allies.
In all likelihood, this female student will be invited to the White House for a state dinner held in her honor and bestowed some award for her bravery. This is where we are at as we circle the bowl.
Or how about a Sikh who is religiously obligated to wear their long hair in a turban?
http://www.mademan.com/beard-all-you-can-be/
I hope he never has to don his JLIST.
In a nation the size of the US it can easily fill all it required military numbers several times over without the need to take any special snow flakes
Think about it this was when the nation was only about 100mil it had almost 11 mil men under arms today with over 300 mil we only have a couple million under arms
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
MountainRaven
04-16-16, 12:55
And why they're at it let the boys use the girls room.
Replace the urinals with stalls and make the bathrooms unisex. Problem solved.
Moose-Knuckle
04-17-16, 01:47
Replace the urinals with stalls and make the bathrooms unisex. Problem solved.
What problem exactly is solved?
There is no problem with male and female restrooms/locker rooms/showers.
There is a problem however with the forced normalization and acceptance of transvestism.
MountainRaven
04-17-16, 01:54
What problem exactly is solved?
There is no problem with male and female restrooms/locker rooms/showers.
There is a problem however with the forced normalization and acceptance of transvestism.
There's no problem here, unless you brought it with you.
Why not just let everybody wear whatever they want?
They can. It's called a state university.
However, at places like the service academies, VMI, and the Citadel, they wear...uniforms. Why? That's their requirement...so that everyone is...uniform. To be a piece of something bigger than themselves.
Going to the Citadel is a CHOICE. If you don't want to abide by their rules, don't go.
Going to the Citadel is a CHOICE. If you don't want to abide by their rules, don't go.
You know that's not how it works of late... Just ask the boy scouts.
Right to Free association is dead for all intents and purposes.
Sent from my PRC-104 using phonetics
My Son is going to The Citadel on an ROTC scholarship and he does have to make a choice to commit by his junior year. If he decided not to go into the Army he would have to pay back all of his scholarship money. At this point he's definitely going into the Army. He called me up this weekend when he heard about it and was all upset. Amazing and he's not even attending yet. He has a couple of buddies going there and a lot of the cadets are very upset!
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.