View Full Version : VFW Post Commander problems.
daddyusmaximus
04-18-16, 23:57
I was just elected as the next Post Commander of my VFW. Problem is, I basically just became the captain of a sinking ship. I could use some advice on how to go about rebuilding a post that is losing members.
The story:
Though I haven't been in combat in 10 years, I only joined the VFW 2 years ago. I still don't like going out in public much, but I do go to the monthly meetings, not that a whole lot was ever done at them. Besides, being a non-smoker, I really didn't like being in the place because of the smoke from the guys who hung out at the bar. Nice building though.
So a few months back there was a big blow out argument at a meeting and several guys stated they quit and wouldn't be back. They started making plans for a new VFW in a nearby town. I was invited to come along, and since I had served with a couple of them, I went. However, this was not to be. Seems the VFW doesn't want to start a new post with only current members of an existing post. They want NEW members. So, I kept going to the monthly meetings at the old post... they did not.
Now election time rolls around, and I'm telling them this is our chance to take over and make changes. They don't come back. I'm sitting there wondering what is going to happen after the elections, when I get nominated to be the next Post Commander. WTF? Like an idiot private on his first time volunteering, I accept... and tag, I'm it.
Now I don't mind taking on the job. I'm U.S. Army retired. I have been a home bound half-cripple for several years now and I'm ready to re-enter the world. I've no job anyway, so hey, it's like I just got a new job. OK, let's do this. I contact the guys (now planing an AMVETS) and only a few of them are willing to come back and help me save this post from closing it's doors.
Anyone got ideas on how I can boost membership?
How do I go about getting current members to take a more active role, or even show up to the meetings?
What are the best ways to help the combat vet community?
I don't have a lot of time to prepare, as I take over in June.
Like any business you need to find ways to draw in customers.
The problem I'm assuming is that people pay memberships and it's barely enough to keep the building standing and a fresh coat of paint every 5 years.
Sadly you can't count on patriotism, loyalty or even friendship alone to get everyone there once a month. The main draw of most VFWs is the bar, and if somebody doesn't like "their" bar, they find a new one.
Most bars rely on some kind of entertainment factor such as screening the big game / fight, hot waitresses in skimpy outfits or live music. Not sure if any of those would actually work for a VFW or even be seen as appropriate, and no matter what you do some will love it and some will resent it. You can't make everyone happy so you really can't win.
Maybe a regular movie night might work, keep in mind some members will only be interested in seeing military themed films and some members won't want to see them at all. Again, you won't be able to make everyone happy. Also not sure if your post does things like honor guards, reenactments or things of that sort, but regularly getting involved with things beyond drinking at the bar can give people something better to do. Anything community oriented that provides meaningful participation and / or shows genuine respect and gratitude to VFW members is worth doing.
So all you can really do is, do what you think is best as best you can, then no matter what happens, at least people won't say you didn't care or didn't try. I would also recommend a sit down with the last Post Commander to get some guidance. Try to see what he did that worked and didn't work.
I know from personal experience that the local VFW honor guard made my grandfathers funeral a little more tolerable. I still have a spent 30.06 casing in my gunsafe from their salute.
Wish I had more to offer.
This is a hard thing to ponder.
Seeing as new members are needed, and that source is from Iraq and Afghan vets, you need to target the younger guys. Problem is us young guys are all working full time and going to school full time.
Do you have a nearby base?
Moose-Knuckle
04-19-16, 03:14
As for getting butts in the seats . . . BEER?
Averageman
04-19-16, 08:40
This is a hard thing to ponder.
Seeing as new members are needed, and that source is from Iraq and Afghan vets, you need to target the younger guys. Problem is us young guys are all working full time and going to school full time.
We have had similar issues at our local VFW. Nobody under 40 wants to sit in a stinky bar with the same 20 guys everyday, well, except for those 20 guys. They are likely old enough that any change will piss them off, no matter how good it might be for the new guys.
You have to have a membership drive that appeals to the younger Vets. Maybe something on the grounds that could include Members kids and Wives? A band, perhaps a picnic, BBQ anything to get those old farts off of their bar stools.
I feel for you, I wasn't that active in mine and finally decided it was a waste of my time. I think your buddies might be right by starting a new chapter.
ramairthree
04-19-16, 08:44
This is a hard thing to ponder.
Seeing as new members are needed, and that source is from Iraq and Afghan vets, you need to target the younger guys. Problem is us young guys are all working full time and going to school full time.
Yes.
Classic car clubs.
VFW,
DAV,
Etc.
Window of retirees to do it that get too old.
Guys older can't do it any more.
Guys younger too busy.
daddyusmaximus
04-19-16, 09:18
This is a hard thing to ponder.
Seeing as new members are needed, and that source is from Iraq and Afghan vets, you need to target the younger guys. Problem is us young guys are all working full time and going to school full time.
Time is a big factor. When I got blowed up they retired me, so I got all kinds of time on my hands now and I'm only 52. I'm hoping that this can work in my favor too, as I can afford to treat this assignment as a regular job and devote plenty of time to the task.
Do you have a nearby base?
Nope. Small rural farming town.
As for getting butts in the seats . . . BEER?
We have a bar. It's what's keeping us operating at the moment.
We have had similar issues at our local VFW. Nobody under 40 wants to sit in a stinky bar with the same 20 guys everyday, well, except for those 20 guys. They are likely old enough that any change will piss them off, no matter how good it might be for the new guys.
You have to have a membership drive that appeals to the younger Vets. Maybe something on the grounds that could include Members kids and Wives? A band, perhaps a picnic, BBQ anything to get those old farts off of their bar stools.
I feel for you, I wasn't that active in mine and finally decided it was a waste of my time. I think your buddies might be right by starting a new chapter.
Therein lays my biggest problem. People aren't that active... then when their inactivity leads to nothing, they quit.
daddyusmaximus
04-19-16, 09:26
I should add that we also have a kitchen. We used to host a fish fry on Friday evenings and are already trying to get back into that. The Legion wants to cut theirs down to two Fridays a month and we would take the other two.
ColtSeavers
04-19-16, 09:54
I think the idea(s) of family oriented events are the way to go. Get rid of the stereotype (old guys drinking the afternoon away while complaining in a dark building). Things that do not revolve around the bar, otherwise your just another bar, but are welcome to utilize the bar's services. The events do not even have to be at the building.
Also, advertising the new more family oriented events.
If the 'Old Guard' doesn't like it, well, that's too bad, they should e reminded that these families are what they served to protect, the future of this country, not a boys only (drinkin) club.
Make sure to keep an eye out for raucous behavior during these family events as well, nothing will kill them faster than a drunk going off the deep end with kids around.
ETA: Perhaps a sports team (if possible) to compete against other local teams or even the creation of different teams for some local sports competition/fun.
I wish I could give you more, but I'm actually the perfect example of your problem. I'm just neither interested nor involved in my local VFW.
Depending on the interest an old VFW that my parents used to hit did bingo nights weekly. must have done decent with it since they were giving out about $1400-1500 in money with the jackpot being a grand. get enough old ladies playing and some snack foods and might help the bottom line. It is a thought at least.
Eurodriver
04-19-16, 10:01
I concur with Endur.
I won't step foot into a VFW because I don't like leaving the place smelling like an Ash tray or listening to all the Vietnam guys talk about how tough they had their top secret SEAL missions into Laos even though they were born in 1965 or their agent orange issues from Desert Storm. :rolleyes:
I concur with Endur.
I won't step foot into a VFW because I don't like leaving the place smelling like an Ash tray or listening to all the Vietnam guys talk about how tough they had their top secret SEAL missions into Laos even though they were born in 1965 or their agent orange issues from Desert Storm. :rolleyes:
I remember volunteering for a VFW event and basically having to step outside every hour or so to just breathe some fresh air.
I'm pretty sure I have lung cancer now.
I concur with Endur.
I won't step foot into a VFW because I don't like leaving the place smelling like an Ash tray or listening to all the Vietnam guys talk about how tough they had their top secret SEAL missions into Laos even though they were born in 1965 or their agent orange issues from Desert Storm. :rolleyes:
You don't want to hear the story about when I carried a G18 back in Nam??
I was never in the military, but my dad was. I recall being a wee lad and my dad got talked into going to a VFW with an acquaintance who turned him on to going.
Well, he came back pretty early, pretty pissed off at the amount of hogshit he had been subjected to, old guys trying to lie about pretty slant eyed whores they nailed or enemy they didn't waste. Plus people just being obnoxious drunks and two WWII guys going on about how soldiering "really was" and how Vietnam was "too easy, how'd you lose THAT one?" after getting drunk.
This was the late 80s and though it had been 20 years, it was still a highly touchy subject. He thought it would be guys just hanging and not dick measuring. He was wrong.
There were some subjects that were just verboten. Vietnam was one. If not the big one. And he said "I'm not hanging around those goddamned lying REMF drunks again"
I got to learn what 'REMF' meant that day. So he just used that time to hang out with me instead.
No disrespect but I suppose this is nothing new. Some people just want to forget and move on. Though not totally analogous; I understand that mentality more and more now.
Plus with email and smartphones and (shudder) Facebook; all the people that really want to stay in touch already do.
You're in an unenviable position, my friend. And I wouldn't kill myself over other people who didn't want to help out. Regardless of what it was. You owe it to yourself.
KalashniKEV
04-19-16, 11:01
In the future:
1) Foreign wars will go up
2) VFW membership will go down
3) % who are actually Veterans of foreign wars will stay the same
Eurodriver
04-19-16, 11:08
In the future:
1) Foreign wars will go up
2) VFW membership will go down
3) % who are actually Veterans of foreign wars will stay the same
Speaking of that:
What's this shit about people who served, I'll use 1953 as an example, in the "Korean War" but never spent a second outside the US being classified as Korean War Veterans?
Is that how shit is going to be 60 years from now? Some dick skinning POG REMF IPAC female gonna be a "Iraq War Veteran" according to the VA/DoD despite having never stepped foot outside CONUS while spending 3 weeks a month for her entire enlistment getting boned down by married Gunnys?
Averageman
04-19-16, 11:30
Speaking of that:
Is that how shit is going to be 60 years from now? Some dick skinning POG REMF IPAC female gonna be a "Iraq War Veteran" according to the VA/DoD despite having never stepped foot outside CONUS while spending 3 weeks a month for her entire enlistment getting boned down by married Gunnys?
Mmmm; just as a casual observation after hearing a group very similar to the one you described hold an entire discussion about how to scam the VA for some disability and get some of that PTSD money, yeah; more than likely that's the way it will work.
KalashniKEV
04-19-16, 12:00
Is that how shit is going to be 60 years from now?
That's how it is today, and has been since basically forever.
Have you not encountered some softy who is all to eager to let you know that he's your fellow veteran... and then you're like, "Cool... Iraq or Afghanistan?"
...and dude is like THE COLD WAR!
(i.e. the "veteran" of many Oktoberfests and brothels worldwide)
Plus, how many SBA certified SDVOSBs (Service Disabled Veteran Owned Small Businesses) are run by non-deploying mofos who have carpal tunnel or a "bum knee" and they're actually benefiting financially?
You do have to draw the line somewhere though- is a guy who left the wire every day, went eyeball-to-eyeball with the heathen savage, and performed the ritual laying of hands to exorcise the demons... but never got shot at or IED'd, and never submitted his paperwork off of indirect fire BS, any less of a Veteran than the Ops Sergeant Major who got his CIB because he dropped a DA 2823 that he happened to be late-night-jogging-alone near wherever that round landed last night?
Is there then also no such thing as a "Navy-Veteran" outside of NSWC and a small group of EWOs?
It's best just to not sweat these things.
If dudes want to flex in their "veteran owned t-shirt company" gear, pin on a mini medal/ badge/ tab to their lapel for the meeting, or yes... even cram back into their old uniform (authorized or not), then I'm cool with it so long as there's no stolen valor involved... and even then all I do is shake my head and walk away.
Just everybody be happy and go do your thing.
daddyusmaximus
04-19-16, 12:21
I think the idea(s) of family oriented events are the way to go. Get rid of the stereotype (old guys drinking the afternoon away while complaining in a dark building). Things that do not revolve around the bar, otherwise your just another bar, but are welcome to utilize the bar's services. The events do not even have to be at the building.
Also, advertising the new more family oriented events.
If the 'Old Guard' doesn't like it, well, that's too bad, they should e reminded that these families are what they served to protect, the future of this country, not a boys only (drinkin) club.
Make sure to keep an eye out for raucous behavior during these family events as well, nothing will kill them faster than a drunk going off the deep end with kids around.
ETA: Perhaps a sports team (if possible) to compete against other local teams or even the creation of different teams for some local sports competition/fun.
Family oriented events are indeed the way to go. I agree that the old timers should be reminded that these families are what they served to protect.
Great idea on the sports team. We could sponsor a baseball or soccer team and have kids running around with the "VFW" on their t-shirts.
I wish I could give you more, but I'm actually the perfect example of your problem. I'm just neither interested nor involved in my local VFW.
OK, so join up and be active in your local post. Help your local fellow warriors and their community.
Appeal to families and to the females. That will go a long way.
Do a service women tea event.
Have a veteran employment fair.
Do a salute to service parade and get the community at large outside of service members involved.
Ask local accupunctureists, message therapists and chiropractors to donate some services for vets and do a health and wellness event.
Find some local bands or musicians and throw a themed show- like a "music of the Vietnam war era" show, "music of WWII era show" etc...
Any military holiday you should be BBQ'ing it up family style and asking the local community to get involved.
Host food and beer or wine and food pairing events and get veterans involved.
Do a good old fashioned auction/fund raiser with local vendors/companies providing goods.
Do father daughter dance or mother son dance, or a 50's style hop with milkshakes and rock'n'roll
Just do some creative fun stuff that you yourself would want to show up to and others will be there if you promote it right. Reach out the the non military community around you for support- lots of us out here that are eager to lend a hand and show our appreciation/support. Just gotta ask.
Good luck!
A lot of people are not joining social organizations these days, so it is going to be tougher to draw younger people to the VFW. Try to determine the priorities of the people you are trying to draw and focus on that.
Softball is a dying sport in our area, but kids soccer teams abound. That would make a soccer team a good choice for sponsorship.
Holding fundraisers for Disabled Veterans or local people fighting cancer would draw local people and perhaps a few new members. If a volunteer fireman is severely injured, hold a fund raiser and invite the public to attend. If a 6 year old is fighting leukemia, hold a fundraiser. If nothing else, you could draw public support.
Invite the media to report on events and try to squeeze in a word or two about needing new members. When people see your post is not just a place for chain smoking drunks to tell tall tales of heroic exploits that never happened, it may help you draw a few new members.
Guys I know who belong to local VFWs told me they have the same problem a lot of organizations have. Less than 3% of the membership do 97% of the work. That is an issue you will have to deal with regardless of the number of members you draw to a local VFW post.
A while back I read one of Bill Mauldin's postwar books in which he described the same "old fart" VFW/Legion problem, except that in his day it was the WWI vets shunning the WWII vets. And so on down, I guess. Decades after my discharge, I would get the occasional letter from the nationals wanting me to join. Just what I wanted: cigarette smoke, drunks, and BS.
If they (and other dying groups) really had something to offer we'd all be members now.
Call me Ishmael.
Speaking of that:
What's this shit about people who served, I'll use 1953 as an example, in the "Korean War" but never spent a second outside the US being classified as Korean War Veterans?
Is that how shit is going to be 60 years from now? Some dick skinning POG REMF IPAC female gonna be a "Iraq War Veteran" according to the VA/DoD despite having never stepped foot outside CONUS while spending 3 weeks a month for her entire enlistment getting boned down by married Gunnys?
Well I have some angles to all said here.
First, to the above, I work with the ultimate REMF guy. Drafted in early 70's. Spent less than 2 years in. 10 months as REMF clerk in Germany. Then was mustered out... looks like discipline issues. But wants to claim "I was a Vietnam Vet" and any and all goodies and kudos and free shit he can get.
Then my brother. He graduated HS in '65. Was drafted and ultimately was in 5th SF and was SOG for a short time... he did make Laos and got agent orange. He had half his face removed from the effects of that shit last year. A stroke suffered as part of the treatment. Cancer is back again and he was back in hospital last Saturday. He's got one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel.
To the OP, sounds like you and I are in similar boats... in terms of age and the retirement exit from service. Anyway, I belong to one of the larger VFW posts and visit a couple others and the story seems the same all around. The infighting, the loss of members, the challenges and etc. I'd like to see the VFW continue. I really would. I stopped going as I was tired of getting hit up by the Filipino women wanting a sugar daddy. At this point the VFW has nothing of interest to me otherwise to keep me going.
OP - all fraternal organizations are facing the same problems of both declining membership and aging membership.
What you might want to do in trying to energize your membership, and mayb e even attract new members, is to create volunteer opportunities. Most folks feel better about themselves after helping someone, and the Good Lord knows a lot of veterans can use that feeling sometime after their service.
Here some ideas - 'Your Town Indiana VFW Reading Program' - volunteers in elementary schools to read to or simply listen to kids read. I was at a school assemble where the principal introduced a gentleman to give him a service award he had been coming to the school to read and listen to kids read every school day for several years - after he retired from the rail road. The Principal asked 'how many of you have read to Mr. Dawson? Nearly every kid - including the high school students who return for the schools assemblies - raised their hands. Next question 'how many of you have eaten lunch with Mr. Dawson? Same response. I hung around after the assembly, now I had someone to watch - it was apparent that Dawson (not his name) was beloved by all. Not a bad gig.
Easter Egg Hunt - ask one of the more active members to ramrod it and then ask one you'd like more participation out of to help. Next year, have him ramrod it.
Safe Halloween - spook house, and get the members and their spouses to set up 'booths' in the parking lot so the younger kids can trick or treat at the various booths - less hassle for the parents, safer for the kids. Same deal - get folks involved running it, ups involvement in the community.
Food nights - step out of the zone and fix some Indiana cultural dishes - heard of Onion pie? This is a famous traditional Indiana food, also known as Southern delicacy brought into the region by the Eastern European immigrants who traveled into the region. The pie crust is filled with bacons, eggs, cheese, cream, sweet onions and butter. (wiki)
The biggest thing is to make folks feel they have ownership.
Good luck.
ColtSeavers
04-19-16, 17:32
OP - all fraternal organizations are facing the same problems of both declining membership and aging membership.
What you might want to do in trying to energize your membership, and mayb e even attract new members, is to create volunteer opportunities. Most folks feel better about themselves after helping someone, and the Good Lord knows a lot of veterans can use that feeling sometime after their service.
Here some ideas - 'Your Town Indiana VFW Reading Program' - volunteers in elementary schools to read to or simply listen to kids read. I was at a school assemble where the principal introduced a gentleman to give him a service award he had been coming to the school to read and listen to kids read every school day for several years - after he retired from the rail road. The Principal asked 'how many of you have read to Mr. Dawson? Nearly every kid - including the high school students who return for the schools assemblies - raised their hands. Next question 'how many of you have eaten lunch with Mr. Dawson? Same response. I hung around after the assembly, now I had someone to watch - it was apparent that Dawson (not his name) was beloved by all. Not a bad gig.
Easter Egg Hunt - ask one of the more active members to ramrod it and then ask one you'd like more participation out of to help. Next year, have him ramrod it.
Safe Halloween - spook house, and get the members and their spouses to set up 'booths' in the parking lot so the younger kids can trick or treat at the various booths - less hassle for the parents, safer for the kids. Same deal - get folks involved running it, ups involvement in the community.
Food nights - step out of the zone and fix some Indiana cultural dishes - heard of Onion pie? This is a famous traditional Indiana food, also known as Southern delicacy brought into the region by the Eastern European immigrants who traveled into the region. The pie crust is filled with bacons, eggs, cheese, cream, sweet onions and butter. (wiki)
The biggest thing is to make folks feel they have ownership.
Good luck.
These are fantastic ideas, and to run a bit more with them. You could also hit up local libraries for the book readings as well as have family fun days where you rent a bounce house or more and whip out some slip'n'slides now that it's summer.
ETA: Waterballoon and squirtgun fights even!
As a Veteran, VFW and a Father/Family man, I'm looking for things to do WITH my family more than without them. This would all also have the added benefit of wives being more comfortable (not complaining) about guys heading out to the VFW (due to the stereotype of drinking the afternoons away in a dark building).
.46caliber
04-19-16, 18:49
Daddyus,
I'm an Aux member at a local post that just accomplished what you're aiming to do. It can be done and it sounds like you have the will and the time so you're already two steps ahead. When I get a chance to get to a computer, I'll be able to share more.
I joined the VFW and made one meeting. Holy****ing depressing shoot yourself in the face crowd! Never been back.
Once they stop paying the top dickheads in excess of $200k a year, plus numerous perks, I'll take another look.
LINK: http://www.disabledveterans.org/2013/04/24/vets-outraged-over-veteran-organization-exec-pay/
Don Robison
04-19-16, 19:11
I should add that we also have a kitchen. We used to host a fish fry on Friday evenings and are already trying to get back into that. The Legion wants to cut theirs down to two Fridays a month and we would take the other two.
The post in my home town in small farm town SW Michigan does a burger burn on a couple of Saturday's a month and a couple of Sundays a month they do a breakfast or brunch social and open both events up to the general public. It helps bring in the younger vets to at least see the post, occasionally help out, and eventually join as they age, slow down, have more free time and are accustomed to coming their for events. Funding is never an issue since they open the events up to a larger audience.
I use to carry out health inspections for two VFW's because they served food. Both were run down and needed repairs. Neither was clean. If the regular bar crowd has a large number of alcoholics, you may receive little cooperation or participation. Their main concern is cheap alcohol in a cozy place. This fact and the tobacco smoke would eliminate me. Steadily increasing inflation guarantees that maintenance costs will soon out pace revenue, if it hasn't already. Money raising projects are labor intensive and require everyone's help. Show the membership the financial sheets with dollar and cent amounts and ask what can be done and who will help.
KalashniKEV
04-19-16, 21:04
It helps bring in the younger vets to at least see the post, occasionally help out, and eventually join as they age, slow down, have more free time and are accustomed to coming their for events.
Not exactly in the spirit of the thread, but I hope that doesn't happen.
Veterans of my generation are not the disaffected types who sit in the corner getting wasted and sucking the cancer C, or who would show up at something called a Burger Burn.
GWOT vets are more like the guys on Mad Men who are back from the great war and on their hustle, making up for lost time. These fraternal orgs will all be replaced by Facebook groups, mud run teams, reunions in fun places, and secret (almost literally unspoken) business alliances.
I spent a few weeks on a contract with a VFW commander and he asked me a lot of the obvious questions about what he can do to attract GWOT vets. I had no answer for him. I have no idea why I would want to do any of that stuff in the first place.
Don Robison
04-19-16, 21:36
Not exactly in the spirit of the thread, but I hope that doesn't happen.
Veterans of my generation are not the disaffected types who sit in the corner getting wasted and sucking the cancer C, or who would show up at something called a Burger Burn.
GWOT vets are more like the guys on Mad Men who are back from the great war and on their hustle, making up for lost time. These fraternal orgs will all be replaced by Facebook groups, mud run teams, reunions in fun places, and secret (almost literally unspoken) business alliances.
I spent a few weeks on a contract with a VFW commander and he asked me a lot of the obvious questions about what he can do to attract GWOT vets. I had no answer for him. I have no idea why I would want to do any of that stuff in the first place.
I don't disagree. I retired in 2011 and have zero desire to join the VFW for all of the reasons stated in this thread. I don't drink, I don't smoke, I'm not bitter and I have no need to bore the world with my feats of daring do which all seem to be a requirement for the local VFW posts here. But, he asked so I figured I would reply with what they do on the other side of the state line from him.
If the VFW had stripper saturdays, I'd join. Maybe.
ColtSeavers
04-19-16, 23:11
On second thought, this post does not help the OP and is therefore in poor taste and redacted.
daddyusmaximus
04-19-16, 23:15
To some who replied, Thanks. To others, STFU. You know who you are lol. I may be one of the older guys, but I know that the younger vets are the key to keeping this post going. I also want this to be a much more family friendly place. The decline of the American family as a unit is scary and leading us (our nation) down a dark road. Vets miss their families when deployed and want to spend time with them at home. I want to make them feel at home in my VFW post. Some of these suggestions I have thought of, and others I am glad were posted. I will be trying as many new things as I can.
Call these guys... ask them how they do it.
http://www.bing.com/mapspreview?FORM=Z9LH2
Mechanicsville VA 23111
Address: 7168 Flag Ln, Mechanicsville, VA 23111
Phone: (804) 746-9808
Website: vfw.org
Not exactly in the spirit of the thread, but I hope that doesn't happen.
Veterans of my generation are not the disaffected types who sit in the corner getting wasted and sucking the cancer C, or who would show up at something called a Burger Burn.
GWOT vets are more like the guys on Mad Men who are back from the great war and on their hustle, making up for lost time. These fraternal orgs will all be replaced by Facebook groups, mud run teams, reunions in fun places, and secret (almost literally unspoken) business alliances.
I spent a few weeks on a contract with a VFW commander and he asked me a lot of the obvious questions about what he can do to attract GWOT vets. I had no answer for him. I have no idea why I would want to do any of that stuff in the first place.
Who do you imagine will serve as honor guard at your funeral some day? Or do you expect some equivalent of a facebook group to show up and do things properly?
As a young vet myself (27) I will list a some things my gen of vets are interested in:
- Firearms/shooting: Check in with local clubs, ranges and even social media and try and get some guys together for a meet and greet type thing, plink, run drills, safety classes, something. Get on social media groups run by young vets like Duffel Blog, Ranger UP, Article 15, Grunt Style, and see if you can find local guys. You might even be able to find a person with a lot of land and you can put the steps in motion to make a private range for future meets.
- Automobiles/motorcycles: Again a meet and greet. Look for local clubs on social media and set one up. Maybe attempt to hold an annual show to showcase peoples cars/trucks/bikes and have concessions for a small fee and donate some proceeds to charities for vets and toward your VFW. Besides the annual shows; for off-roaders have an annual off-road meet and enjoy some wheeling; for the bike guys, have an annual ride for charity; for the muscle cars and tuners, have an annual race off type thing.
- Combatives: Using the proceeds from fundraisers, hold like a tournament with fighters fighting for certain charities.
- Fitness: Like combatives above, have fitness competitions/tournaments with individual athletes or groups competing for charities of choice. Lifting competitions, mud runs, triathlons, marathons, etc. (the Murph challenge)
- Video games: Tournaments/competitions like above. COD, Battlefield, GTA, etc.
- Like some others have mentioned, themed fundraisers and meet and greets.
Just some ideas.
Eurodriver
04-20-16, 05:52
Who do you imagine will serve as honor guard at your funeral some day?
No one, hopefully. But if someone decides for me (because I am dead) it will be the nearest USMC Active Reserve component...just as it is and has been for all honorably discharged Marines
Or do you expect some equivalent of a facebook group to show up and do things properly?
Have you ever seen a VFW honor guard? There's only two types. One is "cute" - usually WWII era guys who look more lost than anything but are genuinely trying. The other is "annoying", usually consisting of hundreds of Harleys and half naked chicks who look like they've been rode harder than the bikes.
Neither are "proper".
I'm with Kev 100% on this.
Speaking of honor guard. I have been on funeral detail once, man let me tell you TAPs and the 21 gun salute will get you! No joke. Guys would be facetious about getting on it but actually being on it is an experience I think every service member should do once. It takes meticulous attention and pride.
Eurodriver
04-20-16, 06:57
My experience mimics yours to the letter. "Oh yeah, you're gonna hand them that flag and they will start boohooing..." is what I heard, but when it came time to buckle that white belt everyone had their game faces on.
I can say unequivocally that handing an 80 year old woman a folded flag and reciting that "On behalf of the President of the United States..." is probably the most Do Not Mess This Up moment of my entire life.
.46caliber
04-20-16, 07:46
Daddyus,
Lot of naysaying in this thread, but I'll retort with one thought. A VFW post is what you make it.
Our post has two over-arching goals. To connect with and help Veterans and connect with and help our community. There were a number of years before I joined the Aux where things were in kind of a coasting mode. Revenue wasn't generated, money was spent and funds were depleted. New Commanders took over, younger guy who served in Somolia and a couple of Vietnam guys that were retired. Between the 3 of them and their terms and a very active Aux, we've turned things around big time. They had the will and took the time. We're a small farm town post too.
Gotta get the community involved. That's how you meet new people and build membership of your Post and Aux if you have one. Here's a list of the things we do.
BB Gun Meat Shoot - twice a year or once a quarter
Great for families and kids. Our basement bar area is big enough to house the event indoors. Make a shooting lane with boards or hay bales. We bought slabs of fresh bacon, packs of pork steaks and ribs as prizes. Grill burgers and brats in the kitchen and sell them. Dad and son come out and buy a few targets. Bar is open. It's like a family BBQ/get together that gets the community in and generates some cash flow. We even set up a vid camera at the target and connected it to the TV so the audience has something to watch while waiting their turn.
Car Show - annual
Everybody in the area that has hot rod or muscle car shows up. Serve normal picnic food, burgers, dogs and brats. Kid friendly.
Lenten Fish Fries
This is a no brainer. Just make sure whoever is cooking the fish has some idea of what they're doing and they cook in small batches. You have one week where the head cook decides to quick it all as fast as possible so he can get the night over with, and the dried out fish in the roasters will cause your attendance to plummet.
Chicken Fries
Same as above. We do it in the fall and winter. Both are $10 all you can eat. $5 for kids. Both are non-smoking till 8 or 9. Smoking is relegated to one area of the bar.
Trap Shoot
We are fortunate enough to have a trap range in the back. Weekly trap shoot during spring and summer. Hang out with the boys, drink some beers and have a good time. No drinks at the range.
Queen of Hearts
Huge money maker. Revenue at the bar, bacon/meat raffle. Have a local pizza shop bring out their truck and sell pizzas. 50% of ticket sales goes in the pot. Our pot got really big one round, almost $100k. Lots of people showed up for that one.
With the revenue these events generated, we have overhauled the bar. It wasn't awful, but now it's nice. As nice or nicer than the other local bars. Big flat screens for sports game nights. Viable place for a Friday night out with friends. Smoking section with a good ventilation system to keep the non-smokers happy.
All the while, we did charitable things with the money too. Donated to local church food pantry. Santa at the Post day for kids during Christmas. Donated to local school that has a program to assist families in need. Donated to local VA hospital to upgrade some facilities and make things nicer for the vets. Dedicated Honor guard who won't let a vet on their watch be laid to rest without uniformed guard at the casket during the wake/visitation. Find active duty families in the area that need help and pay some of their bills.
Many of the guys have the mentality that they served their country in uniform and now they will give a bit of time to serve their community.
For two years - 1975 and 1976 I was on the honor guard that presented Bi-centennial Flags to every high school (it seemed) in Northern, NV and buried nearly every Marine Veteran in the same area. Had a lot of meals with families at the VFW. To me it was serious business, even at my young age, and an honor.
Skip forward 20 years and one of my good friends was instrumental in starting the Patriot Guard movement in our area. I think most of them mean well, but there is a lot of drama. Another friend passed and the PG rendered honors at his funeral (using the term rendered honors loosely). Dudes smoking while carrying the colors uncased, one dude was wearing his (I guess) beret with SS runes on the flash, the rest of his regalia lead me to be believe he knew exactly what he was doing.
Eff that. I was embarrassed for Greg and he was dead.
I hope when I pass my family understands that, as far as I'm concerned I did what every American male should do - signed up to serve - and that the Honor Guard gets a day off.
Lots of thread drift.
Good luck daddy.
KalashniKEV
04-20-16, 08:30
Who do you imagine will serve as honor guard at your funeral some day?
Honor guard?
Well I'd always imagined that I'd be laid out on the altar of some stone amphitheater, and each of my ladies could come down separate aisles from above, carrying a torch, one step per slow-drum-beat and light my pyre aflame... then after someone could put half of my ashes in the Long Island Sound and the other half in the Mississippi River.
If I did go for the flag thing... a VFW post would most certainly NOT be doing it for reasons stated by Euro above.
Yeah, I know... I'd be dead and anything could happen, but I'd haunt the living hell out of whoever was responsible instead of turning into a benign poltergeist that plays tricks and hides things and springs weird serendipitous coincidences on people to let them know I'm still watching.
Or do you expect some equivalent of a facebook group to show up and do things properly?
Once again, you have beebopped into a thread where you have no frame of reference, knowledge, or relevance- and posted something that makes no sense.
Stop and think about that. You might want to slow your roll, playa...
At least in the USAF, active duty honor guards at a base will do nearby veteran funerals. They practice regularly as part of an additional (and official) duty.
I didn't even know the VFW did funerals until today.
Averageman
04-20-16, 09:19
Speaking of honor guard. I have been on funeral detail once, man let me tell you TAPs and the 21 gun salute will get you! No joke. Guys would be facetious about getting on it but actually being on it is an experience I think every service member should do once. It takes meticulous attention and pride.
"We" did my Step Fathers funeral, by "We" I mean that our family had enough active duty members at the time to carry him to his grave, I presented the flag to my Mother myself.
I'm very proud of that.
KalashniKEV
04-20-16, 10:23
At least in the USAF, active duty honor guards at a base will do nearby veteran funerals.
It doesn't even have to be nearby, really.
There's no official channel, but if you call the PAO and request a funeral detail from say, the 101st, they will do what they can do to support your request within reason.
I came up on funeral detail one time and drilled my guys like crazy after hours. There was a VHS video to watch on how to do it, I also had to sign for a rack of M16A2s, a flag, and a practice casket that was extra heavy.
As it turned out, we were not called on to do any services. Other guys came up on their week and had to do multiples. Just luck of the draw, I guess...
daddyusmaximus
04-20-16, 10:28
Thanks for the tips bro.
As a young vet myself (27) I will list a some things my gen of vets are interested in:
- Firearms/shooting: Check in with local clubs, ranges and even social media and try and get some guys together for a meet and greet type thing, plink, run drills, safety classes, something. Get on social media groups run by young vets like Duffel Blog, Ranger UP, Article 15, Grunt Style, and see if you can find local guys. You might even be able to find a person with a lot of land and you can put the steps in motion to make a private range for future meets.
A range day is already on my to-do list. Even us old farts still like to shoot. We just ain't as good (or as quick) as we once were.
- Automobiles/motorcycles: Again a meet and greet. Look for local clubs on social media and set one up. Maybe attempt to hold an annual show to showcase peoples cars/trucks/bikes and have concessions for a small fee and donate some proceeds to charities for vets and toward your VFW. Besides the annual shows; for off-roaders have an annual off-road meet and enjoy some wheeling; for the bike guys, have an annual ride for charity; for the muscle cars and tuners, have an annual race off type thing.
Also in the works. My 4x4 club hosts a truck show every year. My VFW post will be a sponsor this year. I'm also going to try to join the local car club. They have a big car show and "cruise night" every July on the Sat after the 4th. We only have a few bikers, and I haven't had a bike under me in 15 years, but wanting to get back in the wind soon if I can find a decent bike priced right. I want to get in the VA Riders and the Patriot Guard.
- Combatives: Using the proceeds from fundraisers, hold like a tournament with fighters fighting for certain charities.
Didn't think of that. I like the idea, but would have to check with out insurance company on that one. Liability is scary in modern times.
- Fitness: Like combatives above, have fitness competitions/tournaments with individual athletes or groups competing for charities of choice. Lifting competitions, mud runs, triathlons, marathons, etc. (the Murph challenge)
We've taken the first step in this area. We have a deal worked out with the local private college that allows VFW members to work out at their facility when it's not in use by the sports teams. I like the idea of the other stuff like competitions and runs.
- Video games: Tournaments/competitions like above. COD, Battlefield, GTA, etc.
OMG! Great idea. I remember half the trouble I had with my younger troops was getting them off their game consoles and convincing the that war is not an X-Box event. First contact usually brought the "you don't respawn" argument into light. I felt more like a dad that an NCO. My boy is also a big gamer, I should have thought of that one. They have tournaments at his college.
- Like some others have mentioned, themed fundraisers and meet and greets.
Just some ideas.
daddyusmaximus
04-20-16, 10:35
Daddyus,
Lot of naysaying in this thread, but I'll retort with one thought. A VFW post is what you make it.
Our post has two over-arching goals. To connect with and help Veterans and connect with and help our community. There were a number of years before I joined the Aux where things were in kind of a coasting mode. Revenue wasn't generated, money was spent and funds were depleted. New Commanders took over, younger guy who served in Somolia and a couple of Vietnam guys that were retired. Between the 3 of them and their terms and a very active Aux, we've turned things around big time. They had the will and took the time. We're a small farm town post too.
Gotta get the community involved. That's how you meet new people and build membership of your Post and Aux if you have one. Here's a list of the things we do.
BB Gun Meat Shoot - twice a year or once a quarter
Great for families and kids. Our basement bar area is big enough to house the event indoors. Make a shooting lane with boards or hay bales. We bought slabs of fresh bacon, packs of pork steaks and ribs as prizes. Grill burgers and brats in the kitchen and sell them. Dad and son come out and buy a few targets. Bar is open. It's like a family BBQ/get together that gets the community in and generates some cash flow. We even set up a vid camera at the target and connected it to the TV so the audience has something to watch while waiting their turn.
Car Show - annual
Everybody in the area that has hot rod or muscle car shows up. Serve normal picnic food, burgers, dogs and brats. Kid friendly.
Lenten Fish Fries
This is a no brainer. Just make sure whoever is cooking the fish has some idea of what they're doing and they cook in small batches. You have one week where the head cook decides to quick it all as fast as possible so he can get the night over with, and the dried out fish in the roasters will cause your attendance to plummet.
Chicken Fries
Same as above. We do it in the fall and winter. Both are $10 all you can eat. $5 for kids. Both are non-smoking till 8 or 9. Smoking is relegated to one area of the bar.
Trap Shoot
We are fortunate enough to have a trap range in the back. Weekly trap shoot during spring and summer. Hang out with the boys, drink some beers and have a good time. No drinks at the range.
Queen of Hearts
Huge money maker. Revenue at the bar, bacon/meat raffle. Have a local pizza shop bring out their truck and sell pizzas. 50% of ticket sales goes in the pot. Our pot got really big one round, almost $100k. Lots of people showed up for that one.
With the revenue these events generated, we have overhauled the bar. It wasn't awful, but now it's nice. As nice or nicer than the other local bars. Big flat screens for sports game nights. Viable place for a Friday night out with friends. Smoking section with a good ventilation system to keep the non-smokers happy.
All the while, we did charitable things with the money too. Donated to local church food pantry. Santa at the Post day for kids during Christmas. Donated to local school that has a program to assist families in need. Donated to local VA hospital to upgrade some facilities and make things nicer for the vets. Dedicated Honor guard who won't let a vet on their watch be laid to rest without uniformed guard at the casket during the wake/visitation. Find active duty families in the area that need help and pay some of their bills.
Many of the guys have the mentality that they served their country in uniform and now they will give a bit of time to serve their community.
Pretty much the direction I want to go in. Love the BB gun shoot idea.
daddyusmaximus
04-20-16, 10:38
"We" did my Step Fathers funeral, by "We" I mean that our family had enough active duty members at the time to carry him to his grave, I presented the flag to my Mother myself.
I'm very proud of that.
Outstanding! (damn, something in my eye)
At one point, my post had one of the reality TV makeover shows come and redo the bar area. Some here may have seen it. Biggest feature was that they used a wing from a Cessna as a table.
Point is, perhaps some phone calls to those sorts of people could find you a similar deal. That can go a long way for the collective happy.
Maximus, here is a couple more ideas:
- BB gun was mentioned. I add paintball to this. Find a local paintball facility that has mock houses/buildings and so forth. Host an event and have missions/competitions. Like squad vs squad (capture the flag, take and hold base, last team standing, etc; offense vs defense (capture the HVT, rescue the hostage, find the intel, etc); all incorporating the use of mout and patrol TTP's. Invite young kids and teens to join the squads; a good team building exercise. Have someone tailgate a grill and other concessions, and charge low prices and money goes to the VFW and charities.
- An addendum to the video game proposal- have the tourney/comps include teams vs teams, single vs groups, single vs single. Throw in variables in games like COD and Battlefield like certain matches played only using knives, pistols, fists, launchers, grenades, sniper rifles, etc. Even throw in fighting games like UFC and WWE games as they are great fun playing with a group of people.
Another "My old man" story:
He was my best friend. He died. He really didn't care to discuss his exploits. His honor guard was done through the Army same as the chaplain.
It really did take some of the sting away to see strack young men handle the procession like they were putting away Patton. It looked like despite never knowing the man, they took pride in their actions.
This was the same guy who let me play bb gun war in his tiger stripes and ERDL camo that should've been in a museum or something. It was just something to make his kid happy. He really didn't care.
In contrast I've been to a lot of police funerals that were sloppy and obscene.
Casket is literally not in the ground and people are handing out cards, guys not well rehearsed on the 21 guns, and people just not representing the deceased very well.
ANYWAYS
Maybe a squirt gun war for kids and cookout for the older people.
I'm pretty sure a lot of folks that may want to keep semi active with other soldiers would really like to bring their wives snd kids, or at least their kids.
Like...a field trip to a museum or something where dads can tell their kids, in context, what they did and the reasons why. Without some hippie teacher or some hipster running their suck.
I think visiting the Wall with my dad was quite a moment for me.
Just trying to be constructive
Have you ever seen a VFW honor guard? There's only two types. One is "cute" - usually WWII era guys who look more lost than anything but are genuinely trying. The other is "annoying", usually consisting of hundreds of Harleys and half naked chicks who look like they've been rode harder than the bikes.
Honestly glad the Marines take care of their own, they always seem to get the important shit right.
As for the Honor Guard, the ones that were at my grandfathers funeral were very different. You'd probably put them in the first category only but they seemed more dedicated than lost to me. Unless it was specifically requested by the deceased, I don't know who would bring motorcycles and biker chicks to a funeral.
But I think a respectful, military sendoff is something due to anyone who ever served honorably. I would hate to see that come to an end. It's a final reminder to everyone of what that person did. I don't care if they later ended up homeless, a crooked politician or a thief. There was a time in their life when they were prepared to sacrifice it all and that should be a significant part of the final balance when considering a mans existence.
Honor guard?
Well I'd always imagined that I'd be laid out on the altar of some stone amphitheater, and each of my ladies could come down separate aisles from above, carrying a torch, one step per slow-drum-beat and light my pyre aflame... then after someone could put half of my ashes in the Long Island Sound and the other half in the Mississippi River.
If I did go for the flag thing... a VFW post would most certainly NOT be doing it for reasons stated by Euro above.
Yeah, I know... I'd be dead and anything could happen, but I'd haunt the living hell out of whoever was responsible instead of turning into a benign poltergeist that plays tricks and hides things and springs weird serendipitous coincidences on people to let them know I'm still watching.
Your call, I just think the option should be available to you and others if you wish it.
Once again, you have beebopped into a thread where you have no frame of reference, knowledge, or relevance- and posted something that makes no sense.
Stop and think about that. You might want to slow your roll, playa...
Once again, you failed to read and comprehend. I didn't post anything, I asked you a question. The question made perfect sense, I asked who you imagined would perform the service of an honor guard if there was no VFW. I'm sorry you didn't comprehend the very simple question I asked.
Doesn't seem like you could come up with a satisfactory answer and resorted again to being dismissive.
Who do you imagine will serve as honor guard at your funeral some day? Or do you expect some equivalent of a facebook group to show up and do things properly?
Hey Stery and Kev, late to the dust up.
The VFW is not needed, unless desired:
10 U.S. Code § 1491 - Funeral honors functions at funerals for veterans
(a)Availability of Funeral Honors Detail Ensured.
The Secretary of Defense shall ensure that, upon request, a funeral honors detail is provided for the funeral of any veteran, except when military honors are prohibited under section 985(a) of this title.
(b)Composition of Funeral Honors Details.
(1) The Secretary of each military department shall ensure that a funeral honors detail for the funeral of a veteran consists of two or more persons.
(2) At least two members of the funeral honors detail for a veteran’s funeral shall be members of the armed forces (other than members in a retired status), at least one of whom shall be a member of the armed force of which the veteran was a member. The remainder of the detail may consist of members of the armed forces (including members in a retired status), or members of veterans organizations or other organizations approved for purposes of this section under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Defense. Each member of the armed forces in the detail shall wear the uniform of the member’s armed force while serving in the detail.
(c)Ceremony.
A funeral honors detail shall, at a minimum, perform at the funeral a ceremony that includes the folding of a United States flag and presentation of the flag to the veteran’s family and the playing of Taps. Unless a bugler is a member of the detail, the funeral honors detail shall play a recorded version of Taps using audio equipment which the detail shall provide if adequate audio equipment is not otherwise available for use at the funeral.
(d)Support.
(1) To support a funeral honors detail under this section, the Secretary of a military department may provide the following:
(A) For a person who participates in a funeral honors detail (other than a person who is a member of the armed forces not in a retired status or an employee of the United States), either travel and transportation allowances as specified in regulations prescribed under section 464 of title 37 or the daily stipend prescribed under paragraph (2).
(B) For members of a veterans organization or other organization referred to in subsection (b)(2) and for members of the armed forces in a retired status, materiel, equipment, and training.
(C) For members of a veterans organization or other organization referred to in subsection (b)(2), articles of clothing that, as determined by the Secretary concerned, are appropriate as a civilian uniform for persons participating in a funeral honors detail.
(2) The Secretary of Defense shall prescribe annually a flat rate daily stipend for purposes of paragraph (1)(A). Such stipend shall be set at a rate so as to encompass typical costs for transportation and other miscellaneous expenses for persons participating in funeral honors details who are members of the armed forces in a retired status and other persons who are not members of the armed forces or employees of the United States.
(3) A stipend paid under this subsection to a member of the armed forces in a retired status is in addition to any compensation to which the member is entitled under section 495(a)(2) of title 37 and any other compensation to which the member may be entitled.
(e)Waiver Authority.
(1) The Secretary of Defense may waive any requirement provided in or pursuant to this section when the Secretary considers it necessary to do so to meet the requirements of war, national emergency, or a contingency operation or other military requirements. The authority to make such a waiver may not be delegated to an official of a military department other than the Secretary of the military department and may not be delegated within the Office of the Secretary of Defense to an official at a level below Under Secretary of Defense.
(2) Before or promptly after granting a waiver under paragraph (1), the Secretary shall transmit a notification of the waiver to the Committees on Armed Services of the Senate and House of Representatives.
(f)Regulations. The Secretary of Defense shall prescribe regulations to carry out this section. Those regulations shall include the following:
(1) A system for selection of units of the armed forces and other organizations to provide funeral honors details.
(2) Procedures for responding and coordinating responses to requests for funeral honors details.
(3) Procedures for establishing standards and protocol.
(4) Procedures for providing training and ensuring quality of performance.
(g)Annual Report. The Secretary of Defense shall submit to the Committee on Armed Services of the Senate and the Committee on Armed Services of the House of Representatives a report not later than January 31 of each year beginning with 2001 and ending with 2005 on the experience of the Department of Defense under this section. Each such report shall provide data on the number of funerals supported under this section, the cost for that support, shown by manpower and other cost factors, and the number and costs of funerals supported by each participating organization. The data in the report shall be presented in a standard format, regardless of military department or other organization.
(h)Veteran Defined.—In this section, the term “veteran” means a decedent who—
(1) served in the active military, naval, or air service (as defined in section 101(24) of title 38) and who was discharged or released therefrom under conditions other than dishonorable; or
(2) was a member or former member of the Selected Reserve described in section 2301(f) of title 38.
.46caliber
04-20-16, 19:34
Pretty much the direction I want to go in. Love the BB gun shoot idea.
It's been a big hit. Kids love it. The old farts love it. Bacon. Beer. Total winner. PM inbound.
Hey Stery and Kev, late to the dust up.
The VFW is not needed, unless desired:
I do understand that. My point was if they are desired, then they are needed. Would be hard to fulfill that desire if they all folded up and faded away.
I also understand not wanting to be part of a dark, smokey bar where people mostly complain and it's sad that is what has become of more than a few VFWs. But I'd hate to see them disappear forever. I would think the current generation of vets would be able to take their local chapter in any direction they want if they were active enough.
I do understand that. My point was if they are desired, then they are needed. Would be hard to fulfill that desire if they all folded up and faded away.
I also understand not wanting to be part of a dark, smokey bar where people mostly complain and it's sad that is what has become of more than a few VFWs. But I'd hate to see them disappear forever. I would think the current generation of vets would be able to take their local chapter in any direction they want if they were active enough.
I agree, it is a sad state of affairs and would be a bad thing to see them disappear.
The American Legion in our community is much more active than the VFW. I think it would make a lot of sense in many communities if they merged.
daddyusmaximus
04-20-16, 22:51
I agree, it is a sad state of affairs and would be a bad thing to see them disappear.
The American Legion in our community is much more active than the VFW. I think it would make a lot of sense in many communities if they merged.
So do I, but too many people want to be the chief, so they have to keep their own organizations. The veteran version of a growing government. More people running things, same shitty service.
So do I, but too many people want to be the chief, so they have to keep their own organizations. The veteran version of a growing government. More people running things, same shitty service.
I think both groups have too much tradition to merge, they also seem to have distinct purposes. But certainly a shared space would probably benefit both. Just as recruitment centers host all four branches of the military, the AL and VFW could share a building splitting expenses and common areas.
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