View Full Version : Shelter in Place
platoonDaddy
04-22-16, 11:51
Yesterday at the range, friend of mine who is retired FBI, currently back working part time, told us that many agents are instructing their school age children on not sheltering in place if there is any issue at school. To immediately run as fast as you can the opposite way to the nearest exit, or smash out a window with a chair. Their logic: why hide in a pack, you are only making it easy for the bad guys.
They have established Rally Points for their children that are two to three blocks away from the school. For those in the country, RP’s within one mile of the school.
This morning talking to my neighbor about the conversation, he said he was just at a party and the conversation came up. One of the guys was also retired from the FBI and back working part-time and a DEA agent said they have also instructed their children to not shelter in place.
Very interesting, in my opinion sheltering in place works best when you are armed with a shotgun or AR.
Since I only have grandchildren in school, passed info onto my daughters as Food-for-Thought. Any of you address "shelter in place" with you children?
Yesterday at the range, friend of mine who is retired FBI, currently back working part time, told us that many agents are instructing their school age children on not sheltering in place if there is any issue at school. To immediately run as fast as you can the opposite way to the nearest exit, or smash out a window with a chair. Their logic: why hide in a pack, you are only making it easy for the bad guys.
They have established Rally Points for their children that are two to three blocks away from the school. For those in the country, RP’s within one mile of the school.
This morning talking to my neighbor about the conversation, he said he was just at a party and the conversation came up. One of the guys was also retired from the FBI and back working part-time and a DEA agent said they have also instructed their children to not shelter in place.
Very interesting, in my opinion sheltering in place works best when you are armed with a shotgun or AR.
Since I only have grandchildren in school, passed info onto my daughters as Food-for-Thought. Any of you address "shelter in place" with you children?
Don't have kids, but it makes sense to me. Why sit in the closer shaking in fear and waiting for the bad guy to find you? Shit goes down, get the hell out of there. I would tell my kids (if I had any)
you hear gun shots, run the hell in the opposite direction.
earthquake we were told to get under desk till the shock is over then get outside !
FIRE get out side
gas leak get outside
smoke get outside
cant think of ANY situation in my day (I am in my 50s) where we were told to stay in school ?
only thing I could think is hurricanes maybe but were never taught that :)
yeah to me the huddle up and hide just seems like a really bad idea !
lock the doors and get out the windows seems best for sure
Eurodriver
04-22-16, 13:07
What is "School age" platoon daddy?
No kids here, but I would not want my 6'3 190lb 17yo son to run out of a high school during an active shooter situation.
Sounds like a great way to get blown away by some LEO looking for a medal.
Leaveammoforme
04-22-16, 13:19
Couple years ago I had this discussion with my kid.
Instead of "Do this in situation A and this in situation B", I explained that a person should utilize a thought process which would allow for "Situation C/Unknown".
I explained why a person should continually pay attention to the area they're in while noticing exits, choke points and items that could be cover, concealment or used as weapons.
For awhile when we were in public I would quietly point out what I was watching for and why we were sitting/going/doing what we were.
Around the house I demonstrated how to barricade a door. I stated that if a window needs broken to throw an item and not swing it. Plate glass can jack you up.
I want my kid to think before acting. I made a point that he has my permission to disobey any non-LEO adult if the situation requires it. I trust him more than someone is concerned with aftermath lawsuits.
ETA: Euro brings up a good point with age. If a person wants a 2nd grader to reach a rally point, I would think the kid should hide from all non-LEOs. Young kid may not be able to tell difference between a "do gooder" and a BG.
My kid was early teen when we made his game plan.
What is "School age" platoon daddy?
No kids here, but I would not want my 6'3 190lb 17yo son to run out of a high school during an active shooter situation.
Sounds like a great way to get blown away by some LEO looking for a medal.
Yes and no.
Running out with hands on head or similar surrender posture would mitigate that.
Most "Active Shooter" plans are a sick joke.
See...we'll put guards at airports and banks but not schools.
If someone is shooting at me, and I'm unarmed; I'm going the other way. Hiding almost never works in a known quantity area like an installation or a structure.
This has been proven by Columbine, VA Tech, Sandy Hook, etc. The shooter knows it is a one way trip and will take his time.
Hiding or huddling up is just making it easier.
I recall being in the ME some years ago and Giant Voice ordered us all to shelter...
I thought to myself how easy it would be to take out all these unarmed airmen then.
The situation was that the SP had found a truck bomb of no small size. We were in the shelter for a few hours until EOD had done their thing.
But still, hey, if that truck had decided to go off in front of any of those shelters... well you know.
earthquake we were told to get under desk till the shock is over then get outside !
FIRE get out side
gas leak get outside
smoke get outside
cant think of ANY situation in my day (I am in my 50s) where we were told to stay in school ?
only thing I could think is hurricanes maybe but were never taught that :)
yeah to me the huddle up and hide just seems like a really bad idea !
lock the doors and get out the windows seems best for sure
Tornado. At least here in North Carolina.
Most "Active Shooter" plans are a sick joke.
Monty Python: "Run away! Run away!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FPELc1wEvk
My institution just came out with its active shooter plan, like, a month ago. Of course, there's a nice flowchart, but it's essentially "run, hide, fight."
I've always told my kids to run as fast and far away from a situation such as this. Thankfully we only live about a mile from the school and I work about a mile in the opposite direction. They have been at the same school since Kindergarten. They know the building inside out and backwards. There's no breaking any windows in this building so they have to head out a door. I've never understood the shelter in place position. Why wait someplace to die? Just doesn't make sense to me. Only way I could see possibly doing that is if the door could be locked from the inside and then barricaded so it couldn't be opened from the outside at all. Even then if you can safely remove yourself from the scene altogether that's the best option.
Shelter in Place, kind of like the atomic bomb drills we had to do in school = bend over and kiss your ass goodbye!
Couple years ago I had this discussion with my kid.
Instead of "Do this in situation A and this in situation B", I explained that a person should utilize a thought process which would allow for "Situation C/Unknown".
I explained why a person should continually pay attention to the area they're in while noticing exits, choke points and items that could be cover, concealment or used as weapons.
For awhile when we were in public I would quietly point out what I was watching for and why we were sitting/going/doing what we were.
Around the house I demonstrated how to barricade a door. I stated that if a window needs broken to throw an item and not swing it. Plate glass can jack you up.
I want my kid to think before acting. I made a point that he has my permission to disobey any non-LEO adult if the situation requires it. I trust him more than someone is concerned with aftermath lawsuits.
ETA: Euro brings up a good point with age. If a person wants a 2nd grader to reach a rally point, I would think the kid should hide from all non-LEOs. Young kid may not be able to tell difference between a "do gooder" and a BG.
My kid was early teen when we made his game plan.
I think this is the most cognizant post of the bunch here. We can't plan based on past events because future events may not fit, you need to analyze a situation, and go from there. Also, most school shooting are lone wolf events. Running in those situations is pretty much a valid idea, unless you would be running towards the shooter, which if cornered I would take that over cowering and hoping. Me and friends when I was in high school used to, during BS sessions, point out possibilities of an active shooter, and how to counter them. The idea of cowering under a desk was never an option. Throwing said desk as the asshole as he comes in a room and then jumping him and feeding him a text book the hard way though was a very real option. Add in the fact our general opinion of the SRO at the school, who i used to watch drug deals go down literally three feet behind his back, we had a definite reason to rely on our own wits, skills, and survival instincts then wait for help, if it came. No offense to those squared away here, but chances are LE is going to be more clean up then crime stopping in this situation. But, there are situations that one can envision where running could be a bad idea, or at least just running blindly in the opposite direction.
Anyway, the point I want to get at is that you need to think, which is being bred, beaten, and educated out of the people, and then make decisions(Another thing being forced out of people) and go from there. Run, hide, fight, all can be valid acts given a given situation, though just sheltering in place is not the best all around, and for a statistically probable chance, sheltering in place only enforces the ability to increase the number of deaths for the shooter while enforcing control of the system over the individual.
Hey--no problem: in just a few short hours' training your average teaching staff can be turned into a pack of rabid wolves, capable of defeating any known threat.
http://billingsgazette.com/news/local/huntley-project-schools-hold-active-shooter-training/article_cd973398-0884-5eeb-9ab3-cdaf8020c116.html
Moose-Knuckle
04-23-16, 00:30
Common f'n sense demands that one must egress away from a threat in order to successfully persist.
Common f'n sense demands that one must egress away from a threat in order to successfully persist. As long as you can actually flee. Unfortunately, most classrooms have one entrance. If you are unlucky to be the first class to be entered, fleeing isn't likely to be possible. Like Leaveammoforme I coached my kids to think, to flee if possible, hide if prudent, fight if necessary; and to never, ever lie down and make it easy to be shot. This is a tough conversation for a elementary school aged kid, but they start to get it as they grow older.
Moose-Knuckle
04-23-16, 01:49
As long as you can actually flee. Unfortunately, most classrooms have one entrance. If you are unlucky to be the first class to be entered, fleeing isn't likely to be possible. Like Leaveammoforme I coached my kids to think, to flee if possible, hide if prudent, fight if necessary; and to never, ever lie down and make it easy to be shot. This is a tough conversation for a elementary school aged kid, but they start to get it as they grow older.
Of course, sound logic.
The thing is that the whole "shelter in place" nonsense is applied to those lucky enough not to be the first victims, i.e. the next classroom over or on the other side of the building, etc. If a school is under attack it goes in lock down and the SOP is to wait it out. We all know that is no bueno.
Yesterday at the range, friend of mine who is retired FBI, currently back working part time, told us that many agents are instructing their school age children on not sheltering in place if there is any issue at school. To immediately run as fast as you can the opposite way to the nearest exit, or smash out a window with a chair. Their logic: why hide in a pack, you are only making it easy for the bad guys.
They have established Rally Points for their children that are two to three blocks away from the school. For those in the country, RP’s within one mile of the school.
This morning talking to my neighbor about the conversation, he said he was just at a party and the conversation came up. One of the guys was also retired from the FBI and back working part-time and a DEA agent said they have also instructed their children to not shelter in place.
Very interesting, in my opinion sheltering in place works best when you are armed with a shotgun or AR.
Since I only have grandchildren in school, passed info onto my daughters as Food-for-Thought. Any of you address "shelter in place" with you children?
I've told my kids to do the same thing. They are to run and escape...not to listen to their teachers and guarantee I will meet them at layup point. There is no discipline a teacher or principal can mete out that I cannot overcome with experience and a lawyer.
Waiting to be shot is NOT an option.
Hey--no problem: in just a few short hours' training your average teaching staff can be turned into a pack of rabid wolves, capable of defeating any known threat.
http://billingsgazette.com/news/local/huntley-project-schools-hold-active-shooter-training/article_cd973398-0884-5eeb-9ab3-cdaf8020c116.html
Commenting on this from the perspective of the quoted post and the next several.
Make light of the training, but very few, if any, college teaching/certification curriculum today actually tell the prospective teacher 'when these kids are in your classroom, they are your responsibility, defend them.' Kudos for some training that at least discusses, if not instills that mindset.
In terms of fleeing or shelter in place, my wife is an itinerant teacher, who dependent on the school she is at, may have one or two kids with severe visual impairments she is working with. Fleeing may not be an option for her or any spec ed teacher.
One of the best things is for SME's to examine each school and then brief staff on what the best options might be in varied scenarios. For example, both the middle schools in our town are identical three story structures. Most classrooms have no windows. There is one elevator and two stairwells. If I'm a teacher or student on the third floor, I need to factor those things into my mental preparation. This is where tailored advice, from someone who knows WTF they are talking about is important.
Ending my thoughts with, I'd hate to face a classroom containing a teacher who is willing to take the fight to me, backed up by a band of screaming 8 year-old's on the attack. 'For the strength of the pack is the wolf, and the strength of the wolf is the pack.' - Kipling
Ending my thoughts with, I'd hate to face a classroom containing a teacher who is willing to take the fight to me, backed up by a band of screaming 8 year-old's on the attack. 'For the strength of the pack is the wolf, and the strength of the wolf is the pack.' - Kipling
See...some people may scoff at that. "What can a schoolmarm and some kids do?"
Well, right now at any given time in the world there are child soldiers who can be pretty vicious.
Plus, I saw this movie that scared the hell out of me as a youth, like I was rather young . I think it was called Fortress. It was about this elementary school teacher and her class on a field trip and they run afoul of these maniacs who wear halloween masks. So they retreat to a cave and put on war paint and fabricate primitive spears and Viet Cong style death traps and try to ambush them. One dude had a Santa mask and a double barrel.
But yeah....we're breeding out and brainwashing aggression and violence out of people. Telling dudes that tgey are "gender fluid" and sitting to pee is okay also does no favors.
Were I a teacher (and god help you all if I were), I'd tote erryday.
If I "got caught", they can bill me. Wal mart is always hiring. If Larmekious and Dan'travion get to bring guns, knives, and liquor to school so should I. I went to college, dammit.
Plus most schools are unironically designed like jails now .
We used to have clear windows, actual desks, and you were always talked to and not talked at. Group projects were rare, mainly because one person did all the work and everyone else just did nothing.
If you were stupid, you went to special ed. If you were bad, you got kicked out.
We need to start leaving kids behind. They can either get a job or end up on a street, jail, or prison.
Nobody kissed my ass when I was a kid. Quite the opposite.
Anyways tl;dr
If I gotta die for minding my own business, somebody's coming to hell with me.
I was in Jr High when Columbine went down and still vividly remember the coverage seen in school. Following Columbine we did the shelter in place drills which consisted of run to the nearest classroom, lock the door and huddle against the wall under the windows.
The plan I had after talking with my parents was to GTFO and run. I decided I wasn't going to be like those kids who were slaughtered trying to hide under desks. If I was in a place and couldn't run then it was time to fight back. Run, hide, fight makes a decent sounding idea but it should really be run or fight. Good people might die but they could at least slow the attack or take one with them.
Yep.
The whole Millers Crossing "look in your heart" spiel doesn't work. Ever.
ETA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5xnyClQ_kk
I found that movie that creeped me out about stuff like this. Still creepy. It has Czech subtitles. If you're enjoying a lazy Saturday, crack open a forty (pour some for Prince) and enjoy
Moose-Knuckle
04-24-16, 01:31
Commenting on this from the perspective of the quoted post and the next several.
If this is in response to my post #15, I was talking about a parents advice to a child.
I was not talking about teachers fleeing from the scene and leaving their students behind.
We didn't really have this talk with our kids until high school. One of my concerns was their curiosity about the sounds, etc. that would indicate a problem and avoiding the urge to investigate. I told them to get away, not running blindly, and get to a rally point that was a couple of hundred yards from the school in an open area. We talked about the best way to do these things, depending on their location in the building. But, we live in a small town that has a police officer on campus for the majority of each day.
HackerF15E
04-24-16, 12:16
The schools that my kids go to -- an elementary school and a middle school in Nevada -- are built like prisons, with limited entry and egress routes, specifically to handle this kind of security issue.
Here's an example of another school in the district like it:
http://lasvegassun.com/news/2016/apr/18/building-clark-countys-schools-of-the-future/
If something kicks off, and the school goes into lockdown, there is no way for my kids to get out, no matter how fast they decide to run. Those limited entry and egresses are "fatal funnels" that are either going to be covered by bad people or by school security.
A good question to ask: Where does the School Super Nintendo(superintendent) send their kids?
Chances are.....not where you send yours
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