View Full Version : Removing over-torqued castle nut
So I went a little too far tightening the castle nut down when I was installing my A5 RE. Enough so that the metal bent slightly which bothered me, so I am now trying to take it off and replace it properly. However, this thing is proving to be a massive pain in the ass to get off. I really don't know how much I over torqued it by, but now the castle nut is really deforming and I'm having trouble just keeping the wrench in the slots. Any suggestions? This is why I usually don't mess with things. I didn't even stake it or put thread locker on, just some anti-seize.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160507/3cbfd67779fea0814d080d6166f60dbb.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160507/92cd836ce271c99bad1edd9df88fee97.jpg
lahunter57
05-06-16, 23:48
I would try applying a little bit of heat first
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have you got any sort sort of square stock you can tap at it with after the heat? a square punch that would fit the notch. It might break loose just a hair so the wrench will work again.
titsonritz
05-07-16, 00:26
Heat the castle nut and chill the RE.
Heat the castle nut and chill the RE.
How would you suggest that? Ice packs?
The heat/chill method will be pretty much useless in this application. Don't know if you are holding the receiver or extension. I always hold the least expensive part. The tube. Stand the tube up in a vise with soft jaws. It doesn't have to be tight. Set it up so the adjustment track keeps the tube from turning. A helper may be needed told hold it upright. If you have wasted the notches in the nut put a pipe wrench on it. It's probably not that tight. I suspect you are holding it in a way that is absorbing the torque you are applying.
Inkslinger
05-07-16, 08:54
Another thing you can try is tapping on the wrench with something. I don't mean the handle. While applying pressure to loosen, tap on the wrench where it is encompassing the nut. Pretty solid taps, not so hard as to cause damage, but also not some wimpy little love taps. Sometimes a little vibration helps break the friction.
ETA: I didn't realize you were using the Magpul wrench. I would try it with the spanner style wrench. There might still be enough meat in there for one of those to get a bite.
You have two options you can try.
First, with the lower properly secured in the vise, turn the RE in a counter clockwise direction to break the torque. This will result in the end plate lightly damaging a small part of the threads when the locking tab jumps the locking groove, but you'll be able remove the castlenut from there.
Second, you can cut or chain drill the castlenut most of the way through its thickness in two, three or four places. Then, you can use a punch or a chisel and a hammer to break away the castlenut. Fit the chisel in the groove made by cutting or chain drilling and hit it in the direction you would to spin the castlenut off in this fashion. The castlenut will either spin off, or break at the groove.
If you decide to use this method, make sure you do not drill or cut so deep that you drill or cut into the threads. Also, you must make at least two cuts and they should be opposite each other. You can also try your castlenut wrench after making your cuts before using the chisel. Take your time and be careful
Sorry, thought the pictures showed more of how it is set up. I have the reaction block locked in the vise and am using the Magpul wrench. I'm pretty sure the threads on the tube are already ruined.
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titsonritz
05-07-16, 12:54
I've used Freon or even compressed air.
titsonritz
05-07-16, 12:59
The heat/chill method will be pretty much useless in this application.
And why is that?
And why is that?
One the threads aren't what is preventing removal the friction of the nut against the end plate is. Remember.. He said he used anti-sieze on the threads. When you heat something it expands in all directions not just the diameter. Heat could actually make it harder to remove because the nut is getting longer and the end plate is getting thicker. Last.. The aluminum tube is going to suck up the heat you are putting in the nut. Even if you flooded the tube with liquid nitrogen (Don't try that at home!) all you would do is suck the heat out of the nut faster. Fire and ice have their place but this ain't one of them. I just don't think the OP is holding his mouth right. If his wrench isn't holding just put a pipe wrench to it. What does he have to lose at this point? Hopefully it isn't an A5 tube.
Maybe try a bit of penetrating oil too.
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I agree, if you can't that thing off with a pipe wrench, something is seriously wrong. Before you ruin your lower too, just drill it and crack it if you don't have a pipe wrench.
USMC_Anglico
05-07-16, 18:52
Put a pipe wrench on it. Get a new nut and install properly. Done.
I could get it off in about 2 seconds with a sharp chisel and a 16 ounce ball peen hammer.
556BlackRifle
05-07-16, 21:08
I agree with the pipe wrench suggestion. I'd wrap some tape around the RE to protect against scratches if that wrench should happen to slip.
hotrodder636
05-08-16, 10:32
Any luck getting that thing off yet?
How about a chain wrench, same as a strap wrench but a chain instead of strap.
Haven't had a chance to try yet. Hopefully I can go get a pipe wrench today and give it a shot.
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Haven't had a chance to try yet. Hopefully I can go get a pipe wrench today and give it a shot.
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Why don't you tap it off with a chisel? All you need to do is get it started coming off and the rest will be easy.
Inkslinger
05-08-16, 14:59
That works fine on steel. Over torqued aluminum, not so much.
That works fine on steel. Over torqued aluminum, not so much.
Scoff. I've been turning wrenches all my life. I could get that thing off in seconds with a chisel and hammer.
Cut the nut off and install new, rather than risk the threads on your RE or bending anything in a vice.
Scoff. I've been turning wrenches all my life. I could get that thing off in seconds with a chisel and hammer.
This is very true. Once the torque is broken, the rest is s cake walk
556BlackRifle
05-08-16, 20:24
This is very true. Once the torque is broken, the rest is s cake walk
True but, the problem with aluminum is that galling may occur. If it does, it's almost like a weld and very difficult to break free.
Well shit. I may just send this to Rainier. It was a limited edition rifle so I really don't want to trash the lower. I usually stay away from this kind of stuff, which is how I over tightened it in the first place. I had a torque wrench and everything, I just had it on the wrong setting...
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...tightening the castle nut down when I was installing my A5 RE. Enough so that the metal bent slightly which bothered me,...
Which metal bent? I can't understand how it got stuck so hard or what bent. Did the RE actually bend... like in an arc?
Which metal bent? I can't understand how it got stuck so hard or what bent. Did the RE actually bend... like in an arc?
Sorry that wasn't worded well. The notches in the castle nut got deformed a little from over tightening. Just like in the pictures, but that's from trying to loosen it. The slight bulge from tightening really wasn't worth this hassle, I didn't think it was on there like that.
True but, the problem with aluminum is that galling may occur. If it does, it's almost like a weld and very difficult to break free.
If galling happens, it's no big deal. The worst that happens is the threads get buggered up and a replacement RE is needed.
This is how life goes. You make a mistake and end up buying a few replacement parts. You learn an move on.
So here's the drill- pun intended. Get a #40 drill bit and a cordless drill. You drill holes in a line across the castlenut. Then you do the same thing on the opposite side. You only drill each holes about halfway through the thickness and the closer together the holes are the better. Then you take a chisel to the holes and hit the castlenut in a counter clockwise direction until the castlenut breaks where you chain drilled, or the castlenut spins off. It's much easier to do than to explain it
There's nothing else left to say about it
556BlackRifle
05-08-16, 23:53
If galling happens, it's no big deal. The worst that happens is the threads get buggered up and a replacement RE is needed.
This is how life goes. You make a mistake and end up buying a few replacement parts. You learn an move on.
So here's the drill- pun intended. Get a #40 drill bit and a cordless drill. You drill holes in a line across the castlenut. Then you do the same thing on the opposite side. You only drill each holes about halfway through the thickness and the closer together the holes are the better. Then you take a chisel to the holes and hit the castlenut in a counter clockwise direction until the castlenut breaks where you chain drilled, or the castlenut spins off. It's much easier to do than to explain it
There's nothing else left to say about it
LOL... If it ever got to that point, I'd use a cutting wheel or hacksaw and make a precision cut between the castle nut and end plate. After the RE is off, Pop the end plate out and easily unscrew the threaded portion of the RE from the lower with a pair of plyers.
Heh! That's a good plan if you're sacrificing the RE, but has one minor flaw. It's more work than simply cutting or chain drilling the castlenut off :moil:
Berserkr556
05-09-16, 07:32
My god man how much torque did you use? After you get that bugger off get a quality torque wrench, set it for 40 ft/lbs and when it clicks you're good to go. I love to show threads like this to people who say, "ARs are so easy to assemble."
Oh and don't forget to put some AeroShell 33MS on the threads.
ARs are easy to put together for mechanically inclined people. I have found that most men do not have mechanical abilities.
People that don't have mechanical abilities need to find a buddy to show them how to do it. You can learn if you are taught by a knowledgable person.
So did you get that booger off yet?
Haven't had time. I usually wake up at 4 to workout and then work 12+ hours a day so I don't get much done during the week.
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Try the pipe wrench suggestion first. If no success then a cold chisel and a hammer are the way to go. Please invest in a decent torque wrench (even if it's just a simple beam type t.wrench) and a proper castle nut wrench. Sorry, never been a fan of multitool anything.
556BlackRifle
05-15-16, 12:03
Wake, any updates?
So I went and bought a pipe wrench but it was between a 10 and an 18. The ten didn't look like its give me enough leverage so I got the 18. I think it's too big now. The jaws are huge compared to the jut and I think the teeth are too big to really bite the nut. So now I think I'm going to try the chain drill thing that MistWolf suggested because I don't feel like driving 35 minutes to get a smaller wrench.
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556BlackRifle
05-15-16, 16:18
What a nightmare. Good luck bro.
Cut off wheel the nut and split it?
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http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160515/ee18874f3de0972aa1a1f882281e7196.jpg
**** that castle nut. I spent about the last two hours drilling and hammering away. Now I have to order another tube, luckily I have extras of everything else though. Thanks MistWolf.
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elephantrider
05-15-16, 19:45
Congrats on getting that nut off. That looked like a serious pain. You've got some nice tools there in the Magpul armor's wrench and Geissele Reaction Block, but I'll recommend the tools and method I use that eliminates the risk of over torquing it again.
I use a BCM KMR Barrel nut wrench and a torque wrench, or socket wrench as appropriate for installing or removing. I also use a cheap set of magnetic rubber padded vise jaws that can be bought off of ebay.
1. apply a small amount of anti-sieze to the exposed threads of the receiver extension just behind where it threads into the lower receiver.
2. visually line up the receiver extension in the middle of the indexing tab on the end plate, then tighten down the castle nut by hand while being careful to keep the receiver extension lined up.
3. clamp the receiver extension in a vise using the rubber padded jaws. Orient the receiver extension so that as the castle nut is tightened the stock adjustment track on the rec. extension is bearing against one side of the padded vise jaws so that it cannot rotate as you tighten.
4. Use a torque wrench with the BCM KMR Wrench to incrementally torque down the castle nut. I THINK (don't quote me on that) the max torque spec is 45lbs, but I usually find that ~35lbs is plenty.
A little more involved, but there is almost no chance of over-torquing or buggering anything, you know it is installed with sufficient torque, and it should not be too difficult to remove if necessary.
A good strap wrench should be a part of any shooters tool kit.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160515/ee18874f3de0972aa1a1f882281e7196.jpg
**** that castle nut. I spent about the last two hours drilling and hammering away. Now I have to order another tube, luckily I have extras of everything else though. Thanks MistWolf.
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Now you know why you need to stake it down! That sucker could have spun right off. :jester: Sorry, couldn't resist a little gallows humor.
You know what they say, when it rains it pours.
elephantrider
05-16-16, 19:25
A good strap wrench should be a part of any shooters tool kit.
Doubt that a strap wrench would have helped at all in this case. What do you use a strap wrench for? I don't find myself needing one if I have the correct tools.
Now you know why you need to stake it down! That sucker could have spun right off. :jester: Sorry, couldn't resist a little gallows humor.
You know what they say, when it rains it pours.
That actually crossed my mind several times haha. That thing never would've come off with normal use.
Can I assume that you used no anti-seize or similar on the threads?
Can I assume that you used no anti-seize or similar on the threads?
No I actually did. I forget the brand but it was definitely anti-seize.
Doubt that a strap wrench would have helped at all in this case. What do you use a strap wrench for? I don't find myself needing one if I have the correct tools.
A Wheeler strap wrench is a supplementary tool that can be used in conjunction with the dedicated tools for many items on an AR and should be part of a tool kit. The 'Wheeler Fine Gunsmith Equipment AR Armorers Professional Kit' comes with one as part of the package or the 'Wheeler Engineering Delta Series AR-15 Strap Wrench Non Marring 567839' can be purchased separately.
It can be used for hand guards, barrel nuts, buffer tubes and those pesky castle nuts that can be marked up.
https://youtu.be/LAiEkX3KzcA
elephantrider
05-17-16, 19:26
A Wheeler strap wrench is a supplementary tool that can be used in conjunction with the dedicated tools for many items on an AR and should be part of a tool kit. The 'Wheeler Fine Gunsmith Equipment AR Armorers Professional Kit' comes with one as part of the package or the 'Wheeler Engineering Delta Series AR-15 Strap Wrench Non Marring 567839' can be purchased separately.
It can be used for hand guards, barrel nuts, buffer tubes and those pesky castle nuts that can be marked up.
https://youtu.be/LAiEkX3KzcA
Still looks pretty meh to me. I don't see that working well on much besides the example shown. I don't really see the need.
Something to also keep in mind is that of wet torque and dry torque.
Torque values are given as dry, unless otherwise stated. Luring the threads of a fastener generally reduces the friction buoy 20-25% depended the upon the lube used.
For the OP, the anti-seize would have increased the actual torque applied by 24%. If torquing a fastener that has been lubed, the torque value most be reduced. The only fasten on an AR that has a wet torqu value is the barrel nut.
Still looks pretty meh to me. I don't see that working well on much besides the example shown. I don't really see the need.
Looks like that barrel nut was just beyond hand tight. The vise isn't even mounted. I have and do use a strap wrench similar to that one. It does have its uses, but I can't see it effectively removing a properly torqued barrel nut.
Something to also keep in mind is that of wet torque and dry torque.
Torque values are given as dry, unless otherwise stated. Lubing the threads of a fastener generally reduces the friction buoy 20-25% depended the upon the lube used.
For the OP, the anti-seize would have increased the actual torque applied by 24%. If torquing a fastener that has been lubed, the torque value must be reduced. The only fastener on an AR that has a wet torque value is the barrel nut.
The carbine castle nut and the rifle receiver extension also have a "wet" torque value.
The carbine castle nut and the rifle receiver extension also have a "wet" torque value.
I'll be darned........It sure does! I never noticed that before. Thanks for the correction.
556Cliff:
Good catch. I had noticed that, but never associated it with "wet" versus "dry" torque values. I have that reference at p. 3.81.1 of my 1991 TM copy. I understand there is an update from either 2008 or 2011. Do you know where that might be available? I have searched but my Google-fu may be off.
556Cliff:
Good catch. I had noticed that, but never associated it with "wet" versus "dry" torque values. I have that reference at p. 3.81.1 of my 1991 TM copy. I understand there is an update from either 2008 or 2011. Do you know where that might be available? I have searched but my Google-fu may be off.
I have a copy of the 1991 TM and the newest one I have ever seen was from 2008. I never saw the 2008 version in print with my own eyes though, I only saw it because someone posted a link to it on this forum and it was later removed. > https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?94568-Friendly-reminder-nearly-all-torque-values-are-in-foot-pounds/page2
Just scroll down to post #13 by a0cake. That was the link that used to go to the 2008 TM.
titsonritz
12-30-16, 14:15
Shoot me your email address, I'll send you a copy of the Nov 2008 TM IF it will "fit".
TM 9-1005-319-23&P- November 2008
5. Using combination wrench (7) (WP 0039, Figure 23, item 10) and torque wrench (16), torque lower
receiver extension (4) to 35 to 39 ft-lb (47.25 to 52.65 N-m). Torque is read when both wrenches are
used together.
6. Lubricate threads of lower receiver (2) and lower receiver extension (8) with molybdenum disulfide
grease (WP 0045, item 18) before reassembly.
Eurodriver
12-30-16, 15:40
Cut off wheel the nut and split it?
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What I came to post.
Considering the topic of this thread does anyone know where the hell I can find a geissele reaction block?
I bought two of them during that last Geissele sale for 49.95. I would keep my eyes open.
Considering the topic of this thread does anyone know where the hell I can find a geissele reaction block?
titsonritz
12-30-16, 17:25
I bought two of them during that last Geissele sale for 49.95. I would keep my eyes open.
I was just thinking he missed the boat on that. Primary Arms Black Friday Sale is pretty hard to beat.
You have two options you can try.
First, with the lower properly secured in the vise, turn the RE in a counter clockwise direction to break the torque. This will result in the end plate lightly damaging a small part of the threads when the locking tab jumps the locking groove, but you'll be able remove the castlenut from there.
Second, you can cut or chain drill the castlenut most of the way through its thickness in two, three or four places. Then, you can use a punch or a chisel and a hammer to break away the castlenut. Fit the chisel in the groove made by cutting or chain drilling and hit it in the direction you would to spin the castlenut off in this fashion. The castlenut will either spin off, or break at the groove.
If you decide to use this method, make sure you do not drill or cut so deep that you drill or cut into the threads. Also, you must make at least two cuts and they should be opposite each other. You can also try your castlenut wrench after making your cuts before using the chisel. Take your time and be careful
This, worked untold number of times fixing black iron water pipe on the farms. Actually, since it's hosed just use a pipe wrench. I would cut it first though since a small chance that the extension might deform.
Amazon gives no indication they are out of stock, says they have three: https://www.amazon.com/Geissele-Automatics-10-169-AR15-Reaction/dp/B01EY6WFAI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1483208169&sr=8-1&keywords=geissele+reaction+rod
Cheaper knock-offs:
Brownells sells one (not the G) http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/barrel-tools/ar-15-m16-barrel-extension-torque-tools-prod27452.aspx
BoTach sells a Kley-Zion https://www.botach.com/kley-zion-ar15-m4-barrel-spline-socket-rod/ I might have this one, I bought one several years ago from BoTach.
Good Luck!
I have the Rod but no block lol.
I have the Rod but no block lol.
Well, dang that is what you said, sorry. Reading comprehension is not my strong suit, apparently.
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