View Full Version : Nickel Teflon (NP3) Bolt Carrier Group BCG
MeanCarbine
05-08-16, 04:19
Who has experience with any of these and what is your opinion of them? The DSA seems like a good value.
DSArms NP3 BCG
http://www.dsarms.com/p-15794-dsa-ar15-m16-type-complete-ntfe-bolt-carrier-group.aspx
SIONICS NP3 BCG
http://sionicsweaponsystems.com/store2015/bolt-carrier-group-components/31-bolt-carrier-group-np3-coated-carrier-bolt-and-cam-pin.html
Sharps Rifle Company NP3® PLUS Balanced BCG
http://store.srcarms.com/NP3-PLUS-Balanced-Bolt-Carrier-Group-Complete-p/srcbbcgplus.htm
I only have experience with Sionics. It runs like a champ and cleans up easily. I've been very pleased with their products.
Alnamvet68
05-08-16, 06:45
If you're considering spending around $200+-, you might consider the Robar BCG...https://robarguns.com/pro-shop/product/np3-mil-spec-ar-15-bolt-carrier-group/
I will only add that I have an NP3+ treated Benelli M4 and it cleans up so easily it is silly. Saves me a ton of time and it comes out looking brand new every time I "wipe it down." I keep an NP3 coated bolt as a spare, don't recall the brand at the moment, but haven't used it because I haven't had a bolt fail as of yet.
I only have experience with Sionics. It runs like a champ and cleans up easily. I've been very pleased with their products.
Same here. Theirs also checks all the "mil-spec" boxes.
Be careful what you use to clean it with as far as abrasiveness. You're not supposed to use a metallic bore brush, for instance, to clean the bolt tail's stubborn spots. The ol' green "scratchy pad" is also out. I use a nylon bore brush for the tough parts. This is per a conversation several years ago with Robar when I inquired about cleaning NP3.
I've been running the sonics in a small port, part time suppressed SBR generally dry trying to dial in the buffer and Springs, working great
I only have experience with Sionics. It runs like a champ and cleans up easily. I've been very pleased with their products.
This is my experience as well.
As I've said in the past, the base bolt is infiately more important than coating. I don't know about the other two, but the sionics checks all the boxes, and is the way I'd go.
Have complete confidence in Scionics. A very close friend works for them and the stuff coming out of their place is top notch. very small company with a few hardcore AR guys that take pride in their work and the products they sell.
Thanks for starting this thread, as I'd also been looking at picking up an NP3 bcg. I almost purchased this one, but it went OOS before I made up my mind.
http://www.righttobear.com/Nickel-Teflon-Bolt-Carrier-Group-HPT-MPI-M16-BCG-p/ntbcg.htm
I've seen the Sharps offering, but not the other two. So thanks for posting those links. The DS does look like a good value, but it also appears that only select parts are NP3 coated. Maybe that's the reason for the lower price?
I look forward to following this thread and hope you'll post an update if you decide on one!
I have a Sionics NP3 and it got much "slicker" after a few hundred rounds. I actually have no problem with several NiB BCG's I run as even though they get darker they are still slick as can be. However, likely due to IraqGunz involvement I believe in the base quality of Sionics and NP3 is slick, retains it's finish, and cleans up easily! Now they just need to come back in stock!
Dennis.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
Don't have one but the material properties of NP3 seem well suited for a BCG WRT coefficient of friction, heat tolerance, wear tolerance, etc etc.
I have a Sionics BCG that I run in my suppressed 300blk SBR. It's been great so far, and cleaning is a breeze.
I have a Sionics BCG that I run in my suppressed 300blk SBR. It's been great so far, and cleaning is a breeze.
2nd this. I have been running the Sionics in a 9" suppressed 300 blk. Running handloads that get very dirty and cleanup has been a pleasure. It is a night and day difference from the AAC nickel boron carrier. Clean up is a breeze with the sionics! Super High quality piece, just wish I would have picked up the bolt also.
MeanCarbine
05-09-16, 21:54
Thanks for starting this thread, as I'd also been looking at picking up an NP3 bcg. I almost purchased this one, but it went OOS before I made up my mind.
http://www.righttobear.com/Nickel-Teflon-Bolt-Carrier-Group-HPT-MPI-M16-BCG-p/ntbcg.htm
I've seen the Sharps offering, but not the other two. So thanks for posting those links. The DS does look like a good value, but it also appears that only select parts are NP3 coated. Maybe that's the reason for the lower price?
I look forward to following this thread and hope you'll post an update if you decide on one!
I listed these 3 because they represent 3 separate categories. The DSA is the least expensive,...the SCIONICS because their brand comes highly recommended here, and the SRC because of the unique carrier design along with the NP3 Plus coating. Others include:
Stag Arms
https://www.stagarms.com/nickel-teflon-coated-bolt-carrier-assembly-right-handed/
TR Enabling M-16 Obsidian
http://www.tr-enabling.com/product-p/m16obbcg.htm
Wilson Combat
http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Bolt-Carrier-Assembly-556-NATO-NP3-Plated/productinfo/TR-BCA-NP3/
Kaiser
https://www.kaiserus.com/product/ksp-np3-bolt-carrier-group/
Only have experience with SIONICS, easy to clean up after 1000 rounds. Wipes off easy with some paper towel and Fireclean. And if I'm not mistaken, this is Robar's NP3 coating.
Only have experience with SIONICS, easy to clean up after 1000 rounds. Wipes off easy with some paper towel and Fireclean. And if I'm not mistaken, this is Robar's NP3 coating.
NP3 is a Robar coating. I reached out to Robar and verified that they do Sionics' Bolt and my POC said that he liked the Sionics bolts.
NP3 is a Robar coating. I reached out to Robar and verified that they do Sionics' Bolt and my POC said that he liked the Sionics bolts.
Thanks, I saw your previous post on this matter as well as FJB's response to your question on lighfighter that I thought I would mention it since someone brought up Robar. Since my entire BCG has the identical coating, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing was coated by Robar. Anyhow, I bet the Robar BCG would be good to go as well.
Thanks, I saw your previous post on this matter as well as FJB's response to your question on lighfighter that I thought I would mention it since someone brought up Robar. Since my entire BCG has the identical coating, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing was coated by Robar. Anyhow, I bet the Robar BCG would be good to go as well.
I tend to agree with you. Robar has a good rep that have built and maintained for a long time.
Is the sonics bcg chrome lined in the bore of the carrier and gas key, under the np3? I may have asked or seen this before, but does anyone have a picture of a bolt or cam pin after a few thousand rounds on an np3 bcg.
I listed these 3 because they represent 3 separate categories. The DSA is the least expensive,...the SCIONICS because their brand comes highly recommended here, and the SRC because of the unique carrier design along with the NP3 Plus coating. Others include:
Stag Arms
https://www.stagarms.com/nickel-teflon-coated-bolt-carrier-assembly-right-handed/
TR Enabling M-16 Obsidian
http://www.tr-enabling.com/product-p/m16obbcg.htm
Wilson Combat
http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Bolt-Carrier-Assembly-556-NATO-NP3-Plated/productinfo/TR-BCA-NP3/
Kaiser
https://www.kaiserus.com/product/ksp-np3-bolt-carrier-group/
That makes sense, and is a good way to approach this topic. I've come across the above as well, with the exception of the Kaiser. The Obsidian is intriguing, as I'm not sure it's technically Nickel Teflon. Much like these...
http://www.crypticcoatings.com
Again, it's kind of an apples and oranges scenario with it being different than NP3. But, the properties of their coating very closely mimic NP3, and even appear to outperform it in some regards. A few of the colors may be a bit too ostentatious for me, but they seem to be well made. Definitely not cheap though.
MeanCarbine
05-28-16, 05:17
I went with the SIONICS for my 300blk build. The DSA is coated by a local business not Robar, per DSA CS. I may end up getting the Kaiser for my LW build.
Is the sonics bcg chrome lined in the bore of the carrier and gas key, under the np3? I may have asked or seen this before, but does anyone have a picture of a bolt or cam pin after a few thousand rounds on an np3 bcg.
I've had a few things done by Robar... they very likely took everything down and plated under the key.
They redid my 870 Police and my 642-1 in NP3+. Very happy with the results. The serial number on the 642 faded when they chemically stripped the anodizing, so they restamped it. Good thing about it was I had a light scratch in that location which was removed. When I converted the 642 to 9mm with a new cylinder, sent it in to match. One is my ankle gun (still looks new) and the other is my home defense shotgun.
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc61/Screwball216/D37BDB77-AC1D-421D-ADD3-DAF9541F05D3_zpspr5kyb4w.jpg
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc61/Screwball216/IMG_0556.jpg
I can vouch for the finish, and wouldn't hesitate if I needed another BCG. As long as the base parts are quality, should be good to go.
I've also used CCR's cera-plate on a number of guns/parts. Did Garand clips in it, screws that tend to rust (CT grips on my LCP... and the entire LCP), CX4 bolt, among others. Their finish is good to go, as well... but don't think they do any commercial work where BCGs would be offered somewhere. They will do one you supply.
Let me tell you how awesome Robar's NP3 is. I am a truly horrible lazy slob when it comes to cleaning guns. If they aren't one of my primary weapons, like a carry piece, then I only clean them when they start slowing down. That is part of why I love Glocks and AKs so much.
When I decided to get into a 5.45 AR back in the day I knew that my lackadaisical cleaning would not fly with corrosive ammo. So, I looked at and gave serious thought to a piston conversion. In the end, I went with getting a whole upper done up in NP3 and put it on a Cav Arms polymer lower.
When you just wipe it with a soft clean cloth, up to 80% of the crud just wipes away. This is especially true if you use a micro fiber cloth. It is absolutely mind blowing. Seriously. I have had no corrosion issues with the upper (and of course the polymer lower neither). As of yet, nothing that won't buff out on the FCG either.
While I'm on a roll, let me tell you about SW customer service. I lost the extra power hammer spring meant for the 5.45 ammo while cleaning the FCG one day. They sent me a free one, with a laugh and a smile. I have not lost that one yet.
QuickStrike
05-29-16, 11:47
So how hard is it to clean the bolt tail area with the Np3 finish? Paper towel and solvent or some actual scrubbing involved?
So how hard is it to clean the bolt tail area with the Np3 finish? Paper towel and solvent or some actual scrubbing involved?
Actual scrubbing, but as I said earlier you have to be careful what you use. A plastic bore brush is what Robar recommended, NOT a metal brush or the green "scratchy pads" like we used to use in the Army.
The bolt tail is the litmus test for carbon removal, or ease thereof. I have yet to see a bolt tail literally just wipe clean after firing. That shit is baked on there and (at least up to this date) will always require a little elbow grease.
Actual scrubbing, but as I said earlier you have to be careful what you use. A plastic bore brush is what Robar recommended, NOT a metal brush or the green "scratchy pads" like we used to use in the Army.
The bolt tail is the litmus test for carbon removal, or ease thereof. I have yet to see a bolt tail literally just wipe clean after firing. That shit is baked on there and (at least up to this date) will always require a little elbow grease.
So what exactly do you use to clean it? I have an "Otis" type tool and a plethora of bronze and nylon brushes. Just patch and CLP?
So what exactly do you use to clean it? I have an "Otis" type tool and a plethora of bronze and nylon brushes. Just patch and CLP?
I have a plastic/nylon bore brush I utilize. Use it like you would an old metal bore brush on a parked or chromed bolt tail. I wouldn't scrape it with a tool of any sort. It's an awesome finish but don't go hog-wild.......take your time with a stiff nylon bore brush and it'll eventually be like new (which is how I like mine).
A friend of mine has a Robar coated BCG and he uses a nylon brush wheel on his Dremel but at lower speed and with the wheel moving downward or very carefully sideways on the bolt tail so as to not snag a gas ring. "Risky" but it works. He has these hard rubber-like vise blocks that won't mar metal. He clamps the bolt in there on the gas ring portion.
I have a plastic/nylon bore brush I utilize. Use it like you would an old metal bore brush on a parked or chromed bolt tail. I wouldn't scrape it with a tool of any sort. It's an awesome finish but don't go hog-wild.......take your time with a stiff nylon bore brush and it'll eventually be like new (which is how I like mine).
A friend of mine has a Robar coated BCG and he uses a nylon brush wheel on his Dremel but at lower speed and with the wheel moving downward or very carefully sideways on the bolt tail so as to not snag a gas ring. "Risky" but it works. He has these hard rubber-like vise blocks that won't mar metal. He clamps the bolt in there on the gas ring portion.
Interesting. I guess if it is markedly easier to clean, the conventional "tools" shouldn't be necessary. I just find it interesting that NP3 has to be "handled with care". As far as I know, it's not nearly as hard as Nickel Boron, but is slightly harder than the standard phosphate coating. Again, if it essentially wipes clean it probably doesn't matter. I guess if one is hell bent on using bronze brushes and Otis tools they could always do a NP3 carrier and a NB bolt.
Interesting. I guess if it is markedly easier to clean, the conventional "tools" shouldn't be necessary. I just find it interesting that NP3 has to be "handled with care". As far as I know, it's not nearly as hard as Nickel Boron, but is slightly harder than the standard phosphate coating. Again, if it essentially wipes clean it probably doesn't matter. I guess if one is hell bent on using bronze brushes and Otis tools they could always do a NP3 carrier and a NB bolt.
I'm not sure if it's the Teflon component used or what but it is not as abrasion resistant from what I gather. Someone please feel free to correct me if it's not the Teflon and "abrasion" is not the correct term. My Sionics NP3 BCG is awesome but my personal preference is hard chrome.......an old brass bore brush cleans that bolt tail right up!
I'm gonna take a moment and raise the dead, because the DS Arms NP3 version came back in stock at Primary Arms. I was getting ready to submit an order, but then noticed a little bit of creative marketing (on DS Arms part) that made me take a step back. Their description states...
"Bolt carrier group for your AR-15/ M16. Manufactured and assembled by USGI Contractor DS Arms."
My problem with this? The bolt is listed as 9130, and I'm fairly certain the mil-spec calls for 158. Even so, the material used really isn't my concern in this scenario. There are a number of others who use 9130, and the difference between the two seems to be fairly inconsequential when coming from a reputable manufacturer. I also don't worship at the mil-spec alter and, if anything, it's prevalence in debates/discussions annoys me more than anything else. My problem is the way they describe the product, as highlighted above, somewhat infers that they make BCGs under government contract. One doesn't even have to leave DS Arms' website to discover that they do not make BCGs under a government contract. What they have produced under contract, are parts for the M2, MAG58, and M203. I can appreciate the pride and eagerness to call out their success in supplying parts to the military. Yet, it bugs me a little that they would use the language for products outside of their contract, almost suggesting to the consumer that the bcg they're purchasing is the same that's being supplied to the military. Again, I don't care if I have the exact same product used by the military, as I believe that others can make things just as good or better than the actual contract parts. I simply take issue with the inference.
Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but I do wonder if things like this rub anyone else the wrong way. Still, inference aside, I'd be interested to know if their BCG is a quality product. The price is great, and the specs still look pretty good. Reviews are solid, and the only real "complaints" center around cosmetics; not function. Anyone actually have first-hand experience? Maybe even with their non-NP3 models?
They say they are a contractor, but don't specify for bolts, kind of misleading it seems.
I have the Sharps NP3+ version of their complete BCG and it has ran flawlessly. I can't really report much else on it other than that, it has been boringly reliable. Is it worth the additional money over a BCM? That's up to you - personal choice.
Slight necropost, but specific to this thread. Has anyone else had NP3 BCGs "dry out" after normal firing schedules, particularly noticable when first cycling the action the next time.you use the rifle/carbine?
I have an 18" rifle length gas upper with a Sionics BCG. It seems like if I go shoot it a bit, the BCG gets "chaulky", and takes more force than normal to cycle manually the first few times after i grab it again. I eventually solve this problem by throwing a few drops of oil on the BCG before throwing it back in the safe each time. I noticed the same thing on a 16 inch mid-length using a NP3 carrier with parkerized bolt (carrier and bolt from Sionics). I'll check with my buddy who has a very similar 18" running a Sionics NP3 BCG. But I never get this with standard finishes on the BCG. It seems like the gas rings are getting dried out.
My theory as of now is that the slicker finish sheds oil faster, but the doesn't make all that much sense to me since the gas rings should be affected the same. What say you?
Necro-post.
Has anyone actually gotten experience with the DS Arms NTFE BCG?
$110 at Primary Arms is pretty tempting. From what I’ve read searching, the NP3 coating is not done by Robar, while Sionics likely/is. $110 vs $190.
Seriously, I know Sionics is the shizzle and a known, reliable vendor and sponsor of the site. I am absolutely going to buy their products, within the next six weeks. I’m simply pointing out the price difference and asking if anyone has experience with the DS Arms product to see if there is an opportunity to pay $80 less on a similar product.
Vegasshooter
06-17-18, 19:58
All day, every day, Sionics BCG. I have at least 3 of them, and they’re fantastic. Wouldn’t do a build without one now. Right material, NP3 over electroless nickel. They are perfect!!
Definitely all over the NP3, just looking to see if the coating and bolt itself are similarly well done by DS Arms.
Slight necropost, but specific to this thread. Has anyone else had NP3 BCGs "dry out" after normal firing schedules, particularly noticable when first cycling the action the next time.you use the rifle/carbine?
I have an 18" rifle length gas upper with a Sionics BCG. It seems like if I go shoot it a bit, the BCG gets "chaulky", and takes more force than normal to cycle manually the first few times after i grab it again. I eventually solve this problem by throwing a few drops of oil on the BCG before throwing it back in the safe each time. I noticed the same thing on a 16 inch mid-length using a NP3 carrier with parkerized bolt (carrier and bolt from Sionics). I'll check with my buddy who has a very similar 18" running a Sionics NP3 BCG. But I never get this with standard finishes on the BCG. It seems like the gas rings are getting dried out.
My theory as of now is that the slicker finish sheds oil faster, but the doesn't make all that much sense to me since the gas rings should be affected the same. What say you?
If you take the bolt and cam pin out and cycle the carrier back and forth gently with the charging handle, you will probably find any and all resistance disappears, and is not in the carrier bearing surfaces OD dimensions. Sometimes the carrier cam pin can bind a little bit in your upper for various reasons, and it is not the coating, until the mating parts wear in, and it is more noticeable when their is little to no lube, no matter the finish or metal treatment used on the parts.
Necro-post.
Has anyone actually gotten experience with the DS Arms NTFE BCG?
$110 at Primary Arms is pretty tempting. From what I’ve read searching, the NP3 coating is not done by Robar, while Sionics likely/is. $110 vs $190.
Seriously, I know Sionics is the shizzle and a known, reliable vendor and sponsor of the site. I am absolutely going to buy their products, within the next six weeks. I’m simply pointing out the price difference and asking if anyone has experience with the DS Arms product to see if there is an opportunity to pay $80 less on a similar product.
Looking at the pictures you dont see any of the machine marks on the Sionics. One, you have to trust the underlying BCG, and two you have to trust the coating. The Sionics is a tier 1 BCG. I do not get the impression that the DSArms is.
noonesshowmonkey
06-18-18, 13:30
NP3 is a great coating for this application. Nitride is, too, and is generally way cheaper. Toolcraft nitride BCGs are a great alternative to spending $200 on an NP3 bolt. I have a few and they run like Swiss watches and wipe clean with a dry paper towel.
In 2018, parkerized bolts are for the birds.
"But, muh mil-spec!"
"But muh 60 year old design!"
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