View Full Version : Need info locating Statistics for Why we do what we do...
I have a quite obstinate person on another forum calling into question the very things we know from experience. Without hard evidence or statistics he is calling the very information about. weapon quality, specs and other issues purely anecdotal information. Now, this particular thread has promise and lots of people are interested in the right information. I've been trying to do searches and am coming up dry on my searches on the reasons why we do what we do. It is claimed that stuff like what EAG and Trident teach are personal biases. I've tried some of the websites like 10-8 and Lightfighter that others of us are also on, but it's just too much to wade through. Does anyone have any directions I can look to make my searches easier?
Does any one have some hard numbers to support some of these arguements?
-Bushmasters, DPMS, RRA , Armalite, and others suffer from a quality control problems more than such companies as LMT, Colt, etc...(His line of thinking is AR's are pretty much the same.)
-Most AR parts are NOT made by the same companies, and even those that are are sold in different grades.
-Why are the specs on Rob_S' "The Chart" better than not following the specs (I know WE all know the difference, but I'm looking for hard numbers...)
Any other good numbers as to why we do what we do? Basically would like to try and win over other shooters that are on the fence as to the importances to some of this stuff.
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Jay Cunningham
08-25-08, 22:33
Good luck, my friend, but you are fighting an uphill battle at best.
This fight will turn out to be an exercise in extreme frustration for you, I would venture to guess. I have been there, done that, and my patience for it is thin these days. If someone comes to me looking for answers, that is different and I will give them everything that I can, but I am uninterested in changing the minds of the obstinate and willfully ignorant.
That being said, most of the good info is here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7355
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7009
Yeah, I've looked through those. I know I'm not going to be able to change this guys mind. What I'm looking at his how he's stating that there is no evidentiary proof to show that. I'm more concerned at making sure that people aren't swayed by his arguements than changing his mind.
Yeah, I've looked through those. I know I'm not going to be able to change this guys mind. What I'm looking at his how he's stating that there is no evidential proof to show that. I'm more concerned at making sure that people aren't swayed by his arguments than changing his mind.
Link? I can only assume it's an AR15.com member.
Some people have to live a lesson to learn it...that and some people are just plain stupid.
Jay Cunningham
08-25-08, 23:55
Link? I can only assume it's an AR15.com member.
Some people have to live a lesson to learn it...that and some people are just plain stupid.
Can't argue with that.
Surprisingly it's not on Arf, although he'd fit in well over there and may possiblyu be a member under a different name.
Its a small hunting/fishing forum I've looked through for a few years.
I'd like to see some hard statistics on this subject as well.
If your really that interested you need a very large group of participants, at least 100 guys per group each with a different factory brand gun and they need the same ammo. Follow ups with every participant over a period of time, or after a predetermined number of rounds per rifle. It needs to be controlled, guys need to follow the same maintenance schedules and use the same cleaning products.
Maybe start calling police departments around the country and find out if their interested in participating, and what AR-15's they use. After you get your method down and on paper you could possibly request a grant from the govt. or something....are you a sociologist???thats the basic method...good luck.
I'd like to see some hard statistics on this subject as well.
If your really that interested you need a very large group of participants, at least 100 guys per group each with a different factory brand gun and they need the same ammo. Follow ups with every participant over a period of time, or after a predetermined number of rounds per rifle. It needs to be controlled, guys need to follow the same maintenance schedules and use the same cleaning products.
Maybe start calling police departments around the country and find out if their interested in participating, and what AR-15's they use. After you get your method down and on paper you could possibly request a grant from the govt. or something....are you a sociologist???thats the basic method...good luck.
sorry but i just dont see this as likely let alone possible. i would think the manufactorers would never allow something like this to happen anyways. and on top of that, these people you're talking about will still not be convinced, they will say it was fixed or blah blah blah
Army Chief
08-26-08, 03:20
One of the reasons I appreciate M4CN so much is that our membership base is comprised of fairly pragmatic and business-minded souls who recognize (and respect) the difference between preferences and facts. We recognize our limitations. We value sound counsel. We try to minimize expressing opinions that were not formed in the first person. Yes, the odd Mall Ninja shows up now and again, but generally speaking, I've found this to be a largely self-policing resource with little long-term tolerance for fools.
It isn't my aim to belittle competing forums, but merely to acknowledge that virtually all of them struggle with credibility because they are frequently overrun with idiots (I looked for a kinder word, but this one still proved the most apropos) who wish to debate every nuance of every issue that doesn't correspond with their own beliefs -- or more frequently, that doesn't reflect the contents of their gun locker. Asking a guy that just dropped $1k on a totally substandard carbine (or some other largely useless piece of kit) to acknowledge the error of his ways is almost always going to be met with beligerence. The problem isn't with the content that you are discussing; it's with the mindset of the individual(s) with whom you are discussing it.
What I'm really saying here is that I don't see much point in doing missionary work on other forums. Some will find the truth, and most will reject it, but all you're likely to do is to end up frustrated and emotionally invested. To what end? Statistics will be met with skepticism. Expert testimony will be discounted. Facts will be openly questioned. In the end, it won't matter if you are right or wrong, because you aren't dealing with rational, coherent cohorts.
The moral of the story? Seek good company if you want good discussion. That's why you won't see a whole lot of "Army Chief" on other boards, and why I tend to be rather circumspect in expressing my views on this one. I don't think it is unreasonable to look for the kind of data you're seeking, but even if it could be neatly colated and packaged for mass consumption, I think you would still be casting pearls before the swine in most cases if you're trying to win a fight elsewhere.
Chief
Well let the bashing begin. I will throw this out there and you can run with it. FWIW- guys like this won't change their opinions regardless of what you say. They have already made up their minds.
I have 500 Bushmaster carbines in my armory that my company purchased. They are similar to the Optics Ready Carbine. Here is a list of the issues that I have seen with these and similar ones here the box;
1. Not one carbine had a staked castle nut. Apparently my predecessors never bothered to check them or do a stake job.
2. Castle nuts have in fact loosened while guys were shooting or from daily carry of said weapons.
3. Approximately 1 in 3 has had an issue with the front sights that were manufactured by another company and then installed and finished at Bushmaster. The problem specifically was that that front sight post would not allow for full adjustment and I have to check each one and then use an 8/36 thread tap to fix it.
4. Bolt carrier keys staking is crappy at best and are not torqued to spec. Thus far at least a dozen bolt carrir keys have come loose.
5. Not one of the carbines had the proper extractor spring and insert.
6. The free-floating handguards that were installed at the factory were either put on and torqued incorrectly or they used some type of retaining compound that will not allow me to remove them when necessary. Thus far, I have had to cut the retaining nut off of each one.
7. On 07 JAN 07 I personally witnessed a bolt from a select fire Bushmaster M4gery shatter at the cam hole during a firefight. The weapon belonged to my team leader. There is very little doubt that if Bushmaster did the correct HP/ MPI testing on their stuff this probably would not have happened.
Basically would like to try and win over other shooters that are on the fence as to the importances to some of this stuff.-
Why does it matter? There is no need to win over people - they either get it or they don't. But remember that if it isn't a duty gun many of those things may not be imprrtant to them.
They will always find what they call "valid counterpoints" to your facts no matter how accurate your reporting is. They are just looking for people who agree and can back up their limited point of view. Some people just belong in the shallow end of the gene pool.
Today at around 1130 A.M Baghdad time one of the guys came in says his weapon was malfunctioning at the range. Took it apart and checked it out and his bolt carrier key was loose (again not torqued or staked correctly). This is one of the weapons that has been issued out and I have yet to get all those personnel in here to check their stuff.
I would also say that arguing with some people like that is a useless endeavor and a waste of your valuable time. My time in the military and 18 years of Law Enforcement has taught me that there are people in this world who like to form their own opinion and live ot argue about it. They get great pleasure out of "being right" and even more when they frustrate those who go asainst their opinion and are "wrong". Dont waist the time.
Please be safe out there and know there are those of us here to do Love our troops in harms way.
Back to the campfire with you Squirrel!! ;)
Back to the campfire with you Squirrel!! ;)
Huhhhh ???
Are they your friends? If they are your friends I can understand wanting to help them out. If they are not f-em. That's just my $.02 but then again I can be a jerk. No serioiusly unless you have a crap load of free time & like kicking yourself in the nuts I would suggest not bothering.
I never understood why some people can't grasp that two similar products are built differently. Different materials, different attenetion to functional details.
Cars, as an example, leap to mind. To the uninformed, a Chystler 300 looks a lot like some models of Bentley. There's a new Jaguar that clearly copied its looks and lines from Aston Martin.
At a glance and to someone unfamiliar with either company, or the workings of automobiles, and to the various components and parts and craftsmanship that make these vehicles extremely different, they'd appear very similar.
Most of us know they aren't even close.
Why is transferring that concept to AR's such an unimaginable leap for some? It's a rule that follows most products...not just cars and guns.
The typical reason for this moronic behavior is:
1) Brand loyalty. "I exchanged money for a Bushmaster and it runs every bit as good as your pony stamped 6920." Nobody likes admitting to buying 2nd rate anything...particularly when it comes to guns. No explanation will suffice with this type...they can't be told shit.
2) ****ing stupidity and self induced ignorance. Too dumb to "get it", or...an unwillingness to let relevent facts convince them of the obvious. (see #1)
I have a quite obstinate person on another forum calling into question the very things we know from experience. Without hard evidence or statistics he is calling the very information about. weapon quality, specs and other issues purely anecdotal information. Now, this particular thread has promise and lots of people are interested in the right information. I've been trying to do searches and am coming up dry on my searches on the reasons why we do what we do. It is claimed that stuff like what EAG and Trident teach are personal biases. I've tried some of the websites like 10-8 and Lightfighter that others of us are also on, but it's just too much to wade through. Does anyone have any directions I can look to make my searches easier?
Does any one have some hard numbers to support some of these arguements?
-Bushmasters, DPMS, RRA , Armalite, and others suffer from a quality control problems more than such companies as LMT, Colt, etc...(His line of thinking is AR's are pretty much the same.)
-Most AR parts are NOT made by the same companies, and even those that are are sold in different grades.
-Why are the specs on Rob_S' "The Chart" better than not following the specs (I know WE all know the difference, but I'm looking for hard numbers...)
Any other good numbers as to why we do what we do? Basically would like to try and win over other shooters that are on the fence as to the importances to some of this stuff.
-
-
The best thing I can tell you is to have him take a carbine class with Pat Rogers and tell him to ask to see Pat's book of broken parts. It is filled with tier 3 AR's that have gone down.
One thing I have learned over the years, is that you cannot argue (using technical terms and information) if the other person has none. Meaning that they do not even understand what you are talking about so it does not make any sense to them.
C4
Huhhhh ???
Sorry... He goes by a different name on the other site that he's talking about.
A wise professor of mine once said, "you just have to let some SOB's die ignorant." Don't waste your time trying to convert an idiot.
RogerinTPA
08-26-08, 21:12
I am completely dumbfounded when talking ARs to people not in the know. When confronted with facts (I even carry a copy of the "Chart" in my range bag) people will defend there ignorant choice to the bitter end. Maybe, its because they don't want to admit that they made an uninformed choice to begin with. Remember the 3 things you can't school a man on, How to f--k, fight, or shoot...most egos won't allow help in these areas. This will be an exercise in futility my man. Good luck with that!:rolleyes:
I am completely dumbfounded when talking ARs to people not in the know. When confronted with facts (I even carry a copy of the "Chart" in my range bag) people will defend there ignorant choice to the bitter end. Maybe, its because they don't want to admit that they made an uninformed choice to begin with. Remember the 3 things you can't school a man on, How to f--k, fight, or shoot...most egos won't allow help in these areas. This will be an exercise in futility my man. Good luck with that!:rolleyes:
Of course they will. They dont want to admitt to themeselves, or their wives, that they spent a bucket of money on a "range queen" gun.
Also contributing to the problem, is that people are spoiled by buying cheap chinese crap in Wally World. They've lost touch with the sort of price tag that comes with quality.
To the average joe, there is a pretty big imaginary pricetag barrier around the $1000 mark (I see this in art pricing a lot). Roughly $1000 for a rifle seems ridiculous to them, and it is an unshakable pillar of their universe that such a rifle is overpriced and/or overbuilt, while cheaper rifles are not simply "good enough" , but normal., because they have a more "normal" pricetag.
On that same note, how many of use have seen those less than carbines decked out with another 700-800.00 dollars in accessories and optics? I know I have. It's because they strive to have that tacticool gun from the magazines and don't seem to care if it is reliable. I remember a time in the Army when any type of optic was either verbot or strictly issued to SOF.
A weapon with a cool guy optic that doesn't always work is less reliable than my iron sight gun that runs right.
Also contributing to the problem, is that people are spoiled by buying cheap chinese crap in Wally World. They've lost touch with the sort of price tag that comes with quality.
To the average joe, there is a pretty big imaginary pricetag barrier around the $1000 mark (I see this in art pricing a lot). Roughly $1000 for a rifle seems ridiculous to them, and it is an unshakable pillar of their universe that such a rifle is overpriced and/or overbuilt, while cheaper rifles are not simply "good enough" , but normal., because they have a more "normal" pricetag.
QuickStrike
08-27-08, 05:48
A wise professor of mine once said, "you just have to let some SOB's die ignorant." Don't waste your time trying to convert an idiot.
I agree. No need to waste time & energy trying to convince fools...
A buddy texted me this last night:
Green Mountain guns has the Arnalite AR15 a4 on sale for 799
He has a bushmaster and thinks that it's perfectly normal for AR's to jam... :o
For some people price is the ONLY factor.
The truth, or at least my version of it, is that most people don't care enough to see the difference, and for what most of them do, it really doesn't matter.
The typical internet poster on most gunboards is lucky to get out shooting a couple times a year, and for their 200 rounds of paper killing fun time, they will never find out the points you are trying to make.
Don't waste your time.
Jay Cunningham
08-27-08, 08:33
On that same note, how many of use have seen those less than carbines decked out with another 700-800.00 dollars in accessories and optics? I know I have. It's because they strive to have that tacticool gun from the magazines and don't seem to care if it is reliable. I remember a time in the Army when any type of optic was either verbot or strictly issued to SOF.
A weapon with a cool guy optic that doesn't always work is less reliable than my iron sight gun that runs right.
In case you haven't noticed, 97% of the people who own these guns don't really shoot them and thanks to BARFCom most simply use them as platforms to mount the latest neat toy and take a picture of. The rifle doesn't actually need to work for that purpose.
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