View Full Version : Glock Gadget - a Striker Control Device
IndieGoGo Link (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/gadget-a-striker-control-device/x/14043860#/)
Put forward my contribution prior, but announcing that (even though Tom from Soon[TM]) has bounced back and forth on this, appears to be getting a finalization on production sometime this week.
I know I wanted to pick one of these up for my G26 for extra Holstering Comfort. While I am confident with my normal technique, nothing wrong with trying out a new piece of tech that would allow me to holster as I would with hammered pistols.
Considering I already place my thumb on the backplate of all my striker pistols, this will be a very welcomed addition.
Once it arrives, and I get a decent amount of time behind it, I will make sure to include a detailed review of this product here.
Until it arrives, I know there have been many reviews and videos on the product, but wondering about the community's take on this.
Let's not hope it takes another 4 months. ;)
ETA: There also have been no reports of this impacting trigger pull/manipulation or freezing up any firearms. But interested in the opinion of others based on product/etc.
https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1436443430/gdq6q5uujeqn50sgan0w.jpg
https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1436443948/mxhqkwe2fwqekdpkepty.jpg
I've been waiting on one of these for years. I was in on the Indigogo thing on day one. Don't hold your breath...
Dionysusigma
05-11-16, 17:48
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgzRXi_0Guw
A "safety" "feature" that prevents striker movement if you put your thumb on the slide cover plate.
It forces you to shift your grip and also to put your thumb in a dangerous place on moving machinery, to solve a problem that nobody has.
Edit: Lotta snark on my end for no reason, along with misinformation. I retract what I said. :)
I've been waiting on one of these for years. I was in on the Indigogo thing on day one. Don't hold your breath...
Fair enough, it hasn't been very long since I contributed, but saw that most recent update and got hope again.
boombotz401
05-11-16, 17:50
I have to agree, I'm all for new tech and fresh ideas but I don't see what this solves.
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Eurodriver
05-11-16, 17:55
If you want a safety so badly why would you carry a Glock?
It would be like buying a Ferrari and then removing the engine to put in a second row of seats...??
ramairthree
05-11-16, 18:06
I have shot a Glock fine since the early 90s without one.
Think I will be good another 25 years without one.
So much fail in these replies.
The gadget is a simple device that was created as an extra layer of safety for carrying a striker fired gun(glock) AIWB. It replicates the additional level of safety one gets carrying a hammer fired gun.
I and many others are looking forward to putting them in their Glocks.
I could see some interest from some law enforcement agencies.
A "safety" "feature" that prevents striker movement if you put your thumb on the slide cover plate.
It forces you to shift your grip and also to put your thumb in a dangerous place on moving machinery, to solve a problem that nobody has.
Seems legit. :rolleyes:
ramairthree
05-11-16, 18:49
So much fail in these replies.
The gadget is a simple device that was created as an extra layer of safety for carrying a striker fired gun(glock) AIWB. It replicates the additional level of safety one gets carrying a hammer fired gun.
I and many others are looking forward to putting them in their Glocks.
So does the off the shelf safety you can install on a Glock.
But I have not installed one of those either.
My solution to AIWB with a Glock is not perfect.
But I don't have to modify the gun.
My preference for AIWB is actually not Glock for DAO though.
Thumb on hammer is not perfect,
So I don't see how thumb on striker plate mod thing will be either.
Linebacker
05-11-16, 19:16
Are you pulling our leg? That's the most retarded thing ever.
It forces you to shift your grip and also to put your thumb in a dangerous place on moving machinery, to solve a problem that nobody has.
Nonsense. Thumb to the rear of the slide or onto the hammer of a revolver has been widely taught for decades as part of reholstering procedure.
What happens when you fire a gun when your thumb is so placed? Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re8oMnGbnh4
Given that it works well enough so that it won't impede function at a time when you want the pistol to fire, I don't see why anyone wouldn't want one of these.
Why wouldn't you take another safety feature, like this, if one was available? This isn't the same as a manual thumb safety.
So much fail in these replies.
The gadget is a simple device that was created as an extra layer of safety for carrying a striker fired gun(glock) AIWB. It replicates the additional level of safety one gets carrying a hammer fired gun.
I and many others are looking forward to putting them in their Glocks.
This. For me, this will pretty much be mandatory for me to carry my Glocks AIWB. I see it as offering all of the benefits of being able to ride the hammer on a hammer-fired gun, and no downsides. YMMV, but for my needs, it's a no-brainer.
I see it as kind of being like the Serpa holster, a well-intended, seemingly simple design with unintended consequences.
Their gofundme says:
This way the trigger cannot accidentally be engaged and the gun is prevented from firing in the event that anything (finger, shirt, thumb break, jacket tab, etc.) finds its way into the trigger guard. The Gadget provides this same capability but on a striker-fired gun, in this case a Glock.
The Gadget provides an extra layer of safety when holstering. It is not intended to replace awareness and safe gun handling. But it creates an additional link in the chain to help avoid accidents.
The problem I foresee is that if said shirttail, underwear waist band, etc. gets into the trigger guard and snags the trigger, it is entirely possible that there will still be pressure on the trigger as the shooter releases the pressure on the Gadget. At that point, the Gadget would function as a sort of release trigger.
JMO
Thumb on hammer is not perfect,
So I don't see how thumb on striker plate mod thing will be either.
Nothing is perfect. That doesn't change the fact that every instructor with a passing experience with DA/SA guns teaches thumb-trapping the hammer. The Gadget creates the same functionality in a striker. No, you don't need to change your grip anywhere more than you'd otherwise do for AIWB. All other strikers are dead to me until the offer the same functionality.
It is not a be-all ND prevention device, nor it is a substitute to safe habits. It is a safety add-on. If you got stuff into your trigger guard, it will prevent a shot as long as it is engaged and will buy you a time to recognize the problem, whether by feeling the resistance or looking down or what have you. If you're that oblivious even then, may the force and local EMTs be with you.
Nonsense. Thumb to the rear of the slide or onto the hammer of a revolver has been widely taught for decades as part of reholstering procedure.
What happens when you fire a gun when your thumb is so placed? Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re8oMnGbnh4
I'm not a buyer, but I agree on both counts. Thumb on the rear of the slide or on the hammer is an extremely common holstering technique that prevents the pistol from being knocked out of battery and for DA/SA guns ensures they aren't being holstered with the hammer back.
Considering I already place my thumb on the backplate of all my striker pistols, this will be a very welcomed addition.
Not trying to dogpile, but why on Earth would you do that? Sounds like a terrible idea and a good way to take a thumb off.
Nonsense. Thumb to the rear of the slide or onto the hammer of a revolver has been widely taught for decades as part of reholstering procedure.
What happens when you fire a gun when your thumb is so placed? Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re8oMnGbnh4
Interesting. I would not have predicted that. That said, I can think of a few handguns that I would not want my thumb behind if it cycled. Hell I watched a guy get thumped pretty good by an old Mark II and that is only .22 LR.
Not trying to dogpile, but why on Earth would you do that? Sounds like a terrible idea and a good way to take a thumb off.
I was taught to Thumb Check the hammer when re-holstering as a trainee at FLETC in the mid 1990's. It is still taught there and at my Agency. I have also personally seen one self inflicted gunshot wound to the leg which could have been prevented if the officer (who was re-holstering with his finger on the trigger) had thumb checked his hammer.
Thumb checking the hammer is also good protection against foreign objects like jackets, drawstrings etc getting into the trigger guard. One of our taskforce officers in another officer had one of those (AD due to his jacket drawstring) two years ago.
I'm not a AIWB carrier but re holstering on a range, in training is one thing, particularly with a duty / battle belt rig. Re-holstering a Glock, with a plainclothes concealment holster, while you are kicking a dude who is on the ground fighting with your partner is a whole other thing.
So does the off the shelf safety you can install on a Glock.
But I have not installed one of those either.
My solution to AIWB with a Glock is not perfect.
But I don't have to modify the gun.
My preference for AIWB is actually not Glock for DAO though.
Thumb on hammer is not perfect,
So I don't see how thumb on striker plate mod thing will be either.
The gadget does not perform the same function as a thumb safety.
Do you have any experience with the Ciminoli safety (the Glock thumb safety conversion? I do. Suffice to say it's not like a 1911 safety. Not recommended.
I was taught that method when i began shooting and it stuck. While I've never wanted to experience slide recoil to the thumb, it's not a huge concern.
I absolutely agree that lack of training or awareness cannot be compensated for with extra tools or such.
I still wanna give it an honest review and provide that to the community. If it's wanted, that is.
I may have been taught by an older generation in regards to DA/SA and revolvers, but I own more striker fired pistols than hammered. Striker pistols are preferred, and this would add to my preference of carry and training.
Or I will ditch it, and my review would be honest about that, and go back to normal config. No harm.
If you want a safety so badly why would you carry a Glock?
It would be like buying a Ferrari and then removing the engine to put in a second row of seats...??
The gadget is not a manual safety. It does not prevent you from firing if you don't use it.
But addressing your argument, why is a manual safety on an AR not a problem but a manual safety on a handgun a problem. Both are training issues.
I do see where going back and forth between "Point and pull" pistols and those with manual safeties could be an issue. Pick one and train with it.
Keep finger off d#/_ trigger. And dont buy a serpa, and for aiwb learn to draw. The gun will not fire unless the trigger is pulled, or some external force is applied. Its simple if you feel the need to add a saftey to a glock, sell it and buy a different gun. It works as designed. Is it possible the problem is software not hardware.
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Dionysusigma
05-12-16, 05:10
Nonsense. Thumb to the rear of the slide or onto the hammer of a revolver has been widely taught for decades as part of reholstering procedure.
What happens when you fire a gun when your thumb is so placed? Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re8oMnGbnh4
I stand corrected on that note. Still:
The problem I foresee is that if said shirttail, underwear waist band, etc. gets into the trigger guard and snags the trigger, it is entirely possible that there will still be pressure on the trigger as the shooter releases the pressure on the Gadget. At that point, the Gadget would function as a sort of release trigger.
Agree.
My wife and I have been beta testers of the Gadget for a few years. Tested them in 9, .40 and 10mm Glock pistols from below zero in snowy conditions, to wet summer Alaska, to 100F in Arizona, over ten of thousands of rounds. I personally feel naked carrying a Glock now without a Gadget, but I am accustomed to carrying DA/SA pistols, where I thumb the hammer while holstering.
When I show the Gadget to people, almost every person says "that is neat and I want one."
Eurodriver
05-12-16, 06:49
The gadget is not a manual safety. It does not prevent you from firing if you don't use it.
But addressing your argument, why is a manual safety on an AR not a problem but a manual safety on a handgun a problem. Both are training issues.
I do see where going back and forth between "Point and pull" pistols and those with manual safeties could be an issue. Pick one and train with it.
Well, if you read my post in this thread (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?182202-How-Do-You-Keep-Your-AR-Ready) you will see that I store my ARs with a round in the chamber and a safety off negating that issue entirely.
How often are people reholstering pistols AIWB that it requires them to modify their firearm?
I drew and reholstered 20+ times during my last one hour training session the day before yesterday. It couldve been two times, whats the difference? This is an unobtrusive device that's intuitive to use, at least to those who had used da/sa gun, that had been tested for 5 years now, and that very elegantly puts a simple layer of safety in place in case of an acute case of stupidity to which no one here is immune.
I dont care if anyone doesn't see a value in it, I dont have any vested interest in changing your priorities and judgements. I just find it amusing to see people pontificate what and how it does / doesn't do when some of us posting here have been testing it for years.
"I've always done it this way" is not something you will hear me say when a new product is developed. I think it is an interesting concept.
I've been on a range when someone had a ND due to a defective holster. This device may or may not address the issue, but I am willing to take a look. I would be willing to try one out in the classroom, on the range and while carrying if the cost is reasonable.
Eurodriver
05-12-16, 07:56
I drew and reholstered 20+ times during my last one hour training session the day before yesterday. It couldve been two times, whats the difference? This is an unobtrusive device that's intuitive to use, at least to those who had used da/sa gun, that had been tested for 5 years now, and that very elegantly puts a simple layer of safety in place in case of an acute case of stupidity to which no one here is immune.
I dont care if anyone doesn't see a value in it, I dont have any vested interest in changing your priorities and judgements. I just find it amusing to see people pontificate what and how it does / doesn't do when some of us posting here have been testing it for years.
This is a good post. You do you, no doubt.
I always love Gadget threads because it really exposes the people with no training and/or no clue.
If someone wants it, there is a market...
Personally, I wouldn't buy one. I just don't have the need/desire for one. I was issued a Glock at my last job, and carry a 30S off duty, currently. I'm comfortable with the standard Glock setup.
Depending on price, long term durability, and ergonomics, I'd consider it an option. But until then, I'd recommend a different pistol.
If someone wants it, there is a market...
Personally, I wouldn't buy one. I just don't have the need/desire for one. I was issued a Glock at my last job, and carry a 30S off duty, currently. I'm comfortable with the standard Glock setup.
Depending on price, long term durability, and ergonomics, I'd consider it an option. But until then, I'd recommend a different pistol.
When doing my review I will make sure to include all of these aspects. Granted, I am sure it will be awhile.
Right now it is $65 for the backplate "contribution", It was $55 prior, and I can't imagine production pricing going down; but, we won't know what final cost will be until it fully releases. I would expect a moderate price range from 65-100 (I would hope), as anything more would just drive sales down.
As more sell, we may see price decrease.
whatthepuck
05-12-16, 09:42
Most modern "duty" guns don't need add-ons to help them function or add safety features. If I wanted a striker fired gun with a safety, I'd certainly not buy a Glock. There are options out there, but Glocks after all are the most customizable pistols out there. So if this floats your boat, rock on, just not for me.
Suggested retail pricing is going to be $60 (plus $5 S/H). Dealers may or may not set a price lower than that, but there will probably be a MAP.
Good to hear on that end.
Out of curiosity, and to avoid assumption, are you Tom Jones from the campaign?
if you can't be bothered to learn to manipulate a safety, i dont want you around guns, period. You're an inept bungler, apparently
if you can't be bothered to learn to manipulate a safety, i dont want you around guns, period. You're an inept bungler, apparently
Uhhhh? "Wat?"
The negative comments in this thread are ridiculous.
if you can't be bothered to learn to manipulate a safety, i dont want you around guns, period. You're an inept bungler, apparently
I wish he would have quoted so we could know who is responding to... I think it's Euro based on the "title" in his reply.
If that's the case, I will surely brace myself for what cometh.
Mysteryman
05-12-16, 13:40
Not trying to dogpile, but why on Earth would you do that? Sounds like a terrible idea and a good way to take a thumb off.
Interesting. I would not have predicted that. That said, I can think of a few handguns that I would not want my thumb behind if it cycled. Hell I watched a guy get thumped pretty good by an old Mark II and that is only .22 LR.
So after you've been shown video evidence contradicting what you believe would happen you still think it's dangerous to put your thumb behind the slide, then use an anecdotal BS story of some guy being struck with the bolt of a rimfire pistol. A calibre which has drastically less energy than a centre fire.
As for thumbing the slide on reholster, it is very common and taught by many. What it does is ensure the hammer is down for those running hammer fired guns. It also acts as an indicator when something is obstructing the pistol from being rehosltered. When you feel resistance(outside of what you normally feel) or the slide/hammer pressing into your thumb you know there's a problem.
The whole AIWB issue is entirely a training one. Learn to clear your cover garments properly before reholstering. Learning to do that is no different than learning to place your thumb on the back of the slide with the "gadget". Both are training related and both offer the same chances of being forgotten. I see the "gadget" as a gimmick, stick with solid training and practice.
The gadget is not a manual safety. It does not prevent you from firing if you don't use it.
But addressing your argument, why is a manual safety on an AR not a problem but a manual safety on a handgun a problem. Both are training issues.
I do see where going back and forth between "Point and pull" pistols and those with manual safeties could be an issue. Pick one and train with it.
A manual safety on a rifle is necessary as the trigger is not covered/protected by a holster when not in use.
I always love Gadget threads because it really exposes the people with no training and/or no clue.
Spoken for truth.
if you can't be bothered to learn to manipulate a safety, i dont want you around guns, period. You're an inept bungler, apparently
What about those who utilize revolvers? They have no safety, are this people inept bunglers as well? Perhaps Eurodriver lives alone or has a spouse who is an accomplished shooter as well. Someone who fully understands the FUNDAMENTAL FOUR rules of firearms handling and understands how their firearms work is not concerned with manual safeties. When a firearm is to be positioned and used in a moments notice from a secure location such as your home the need for the safety is not absolute. I personally subscribe to using it as it keeps my manual of arms consistent regardless of all other factors, but I see no error in Eurodriver's desire to run with the safety off.
If people think a mechanical safety is somehow a life saver then they need vastly more training. Being afraid of your firearms because you don't understand their operation or don't trust your own skill set should be a clue as to what the real problem is.
MM
The gadget is not a safety. It is an indicator. For those of us who spent a lot of time shooting anything with a hammer, thumb on the back of the slide is second nature. I do this even on a striker fired gun out of habit.
The gadget does not substitute for proper training or proper reholstering technique. The gadget is just a little extra assurance that you don't castrate yourself. No change in technique is required. Owning a gadget does not make you exempt from firearms safety rules. Do note, that if you don't holster correctly, the gadget probably won't stop you from blowing your nuts off. However, if you do holster properly, and something by chance has made it's way into your holster area, the gadget may keep your wife (or boyfriend, not that there's anything wrong with that) happy.
Here is the best part: if you don't like it, don't buy it. It's not like it's my balls the gun is pointing at.
Nonsense. Thumb to the rear of the slide or onto the hammer of a revolver has been widely taught for decades as part of reholstering procedure.
What happens when you fire a gun when your thumb is so placed? Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re8oMnGbnh4
this is actually what you're supposed to do if you're making a contact shot. don't want the gun to be out of battery for such a violent or dynamic situation.
The gadget is not a safety. It is an indicator. For those of us who spent a lot of time shooting anything with a hammer, thumb on the back of the slide is second nature. I do this even on a striker fired gun out of habit.
it's also the only practical way to reholster with certain holsters. if you have an iwb holster that has a high leather sweat guard, it is impractical to keep your thumb on the inboard side of the firearm while holstering.
Eurodriver
05-12-16, 15:46
leaving loaded, cocked guns lying around should be cause to have you locked up if you can't be bothered to learn to manipulate a safety, i dont want you around guns, period. You're an inept bungler, apparently
Helluva 25th post, but much better than your 7th.
I don't think transitions are practical at all. If I ever had a malfunction with the rifle and need a gun right then, i"d just toss the rifle and worry about later. Even more so if it was wearing a can.
Helluva 25th post, but much better than your 7th.
what the actual??? someone ban that guy
Phillygunguy
05-12-16, 16:45
I may get a gadget myself. If anything to make me feel better about wanting to carry aiwb. ..once I get rid of my gut
Phillygunguy
05-12-16, 16:48
IndieGoGo Link (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/gadget-a-striker-control-device/x/14043860#/)
Put forward my contribution prior, but announcing that (even though Tom from Soon[TM]) has bounced back and forth on this, appears to be getting a finalization on production sometime this week.
I know I wanted to pick one of these up for my G26 for extra Holstering Comfort. While I am confident with my normal technique, nothing wrong with trying out a new piece of tech that would allow me to holster as I would with hammered pistols.
Considering I already place my thumb on the backplate of all my striker pistols, this will be a very welcomed addition.
Once it arrives, and I get a decent amount of time behind it, I will make sure to include a detailed review of this product here.
Until it arrives, I know there have been many reviews and videos on the product, but wondering about the community's take on this.
Let's not hope it takes another 4 months. ;)
ETA: There also have been no reports of this impacting trigger pull/manipulation or freezing up any firearms. But interested in the opinion of others based on product/etc.
https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1436443430/gdq6q5uujeqn50sgan0w.jpg
https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1436443948/mxhqkwe2fwqekdpkepty.jpg
Your glock ejects brass at 9 O clock? Or are my eyes deceiving me
ColtSeavers
05-12-16, 17:02
Your glock ejects brass at 9 O clock? Or are my eyes deceiving me
Pretty sure it's a 3 dimension being turned into 2 deminsion illusion.
I don't understand the negativity towards this.
How many of you would stop buying, using, or recommending Glock pistols, if these came on them from the factory?
It seems like it is an unobtrusive device designed to more safely holster the pistol. Given that it is durable, unobtrusive, and doesn't cause any issues, I really don't see what the issue is with another safety device on a pistol.
Well, if you read my post in this thread (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?182202-How-Do-You-Keep-Your-AR-Ready) you will see that I store my ARs with a round in the chamber and a safety off negating that issue entirely.
How often are people reholstering pistols AIWB that it requires them to modify their firearm?
I've carried "point and pull" professionally pistols for over 20 years but until my current Glock, all were hammer fired. I have no issue with the concept
Re: ARs - Whether the thumb safety is on or off, you do understand that unlike your Glock, your AR is NOT drop safe and does not have a firing pin safety? It's not easy but you can get an AR (or 870 shotgun) to fire by bumping / slamming the butt with a round chambered, even if the hammer doesn't fall ?
I've seen this demonstrated with an AR, in an armorers school with a primed, empty case. It's more common with the 870 IME.
Re: Re-holstering - I don't AIWB carry and none of the examples I cited, including the ND to the leg involved AIWB carry. The value of thumb checking a hammer as an indicator extends beyond AIWB carry.
I'm sure responding 100 times to each other, on either side, is going to change the other guys' minds. Yep, that's how it normally works.
:jester:
A manual safety on a rifle is necessary as the trigger is not covered/protected by a holster when not in use.
^^^ 100% correct. My point was if you can train AR thumb safety manipulation to a level of unconscious competence, you can do the same thing with a handgun.
So after you've been shown video evidence contradicting what you believe would happen you still think it's dangerous to put your thumb behind the slide, then use an anecdotal BS story of some guy being struck with the bolt of a rimfire pistol. A calibre which has drastically less energy than a centre fire.
As for thumbing the slide on reholster, it is very common and taught by many. What it does is ensure the hammer is down for those running hammer fired guns. It also acts as an indicator when something is obstructing the pistol from being rehosltered. When you feel resistance(outside of what you normally feel) or the slide/hammer pressing into your thumb you know there's a problem.
The whole AIWB issue is entirely a training one. Learn to clear your cover garments properly before reholstering. Learning to do that is no different than learning to place your thumb on the back of the slide with the "gadget". Both are training related and both offer the same chances of being forgotten. I see the "gadget" as a gimmick, stick with solid training and practice.
A manual safety on a rifle is necessary as the trigger is not covered/protected by a holster when not in use.
Spoken for truth.
What about those who utilize revolvers? They have no safety, are this people inept bunglers as well? Perhaps Eurodriver lives alone or has a spouse who is an accomplished shooter as well. Someone who fully understands the FUNDAMENTAL FOUR rules of firearms handling and understands how their firearms work is not concerned with manual safeties. When a firearm is to be positioned and used in a moments notice from a secure location such as your home the need for the safety is not absolute. I personally subscribe to using it as it keeps my manual of arms consistent regardless of all other factors, but I see no error in Eurodriver's desire to run with the safety off.
If people think a mechanical safety is somehow a life saver then they need vastly more training. Being afraid of your firearms because you don't understand their operation or don't trust your own skill set should be a clue as to what the real problem is.
MM
Apologies as this is off topic from The Gadget:
As you stated, a rifle's the trigger is not covered/protected by a holster when not in use. So it is prudent to keep a rifle not under your physical control either chamber empty, or safety on if chambered, even if you live alone. Even if I am well trained, Mr. Murphy has a funny way of catching us slipping, For example:
In the past five years, at least six Americans have been shot by dogs
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/10/27/a-dog-shoots-a-person-almost-every-year-in-america/
IME the person who believes they are too A) Good, B) Smart, C) well trained to make a mistake with a firearm is the most dangerous. Everyone, including me, can have an off day. Redundant layers of safety ( 4 rules, training and mechanical / design based) are a good thing given the human condition.
Linebacker
05-12-16, 18:42
This thread is probably not the place to ask, but what has transpired to cause an accidental discharge other than the obvious miss-placed trigger finger?
This thread is probably not the place to ask, but what has transpired to cause an accidental discharge other than the obvious miss-placed trigger finger?
While holstering:
1) Clothing getting into the trigger guard, including coat and shirt tails, draw strings and in one case, part of a belt buckle.
2) Holster straps on worn thumb break holsters, particularly pancake style.
Linebacker
05-12-16, 18:52
While holstering:
1) Clothing getting into the trigger guard, including coat and shirt tails, draw strings and in one case, part of a belt buckle.
2) Holster straps on worn thumb break holsters, particularly pancake style.
Thank you!
This thread is probably not the place to ask, but what has transpired to cause an accidental discharge other than the obvious miss-placed trigger finger?
HCM covered those pertinant to reholstering.
Others include slam fires and inertia firing (i.e. dropping a firearm without a firing pin safety). I guess you could throw in a cook-off as well. None of these really apply to the gadget (or pistols in general). Those who say there are no accidental discharges, only negligent discharges irk me, because I have witnessed otherwise. They are considerably rarer than negligent discharges, however.
ramairthree
05-12-16, 19:10
I don't understand the negativity towards this.
How many of you would stop buying, using, or recommending Glock pistols, if these came on them from the factory?
It seems like it is an unobtrusive device designed to more safely holster the pistol. Given that it is durable, unobtrusive, and doesn't cause any issues, I really don't see what the issue is with another safety device on a pistol.
That is the key point. It is not a factory installed, designed, etc. item.
And it is a little more involved than a different shape of your mag release or texture in your grip.
I have known about appendix carry since the mid to late 80s.
I have been shooting and owning Glocks since the early 90s.
Glocks have become ubiquitous and cool.
As have lots of dipshits having NDs with them.
The general response is learn to handle your firearm, or get a gun with a safety, maybe the Glock is not for you.
I have not put an after market safety on any of my Glocks, and would only consider one if it was factory.
Plenty of other designs come from the factory with choice of DAO/striker, decocker, safety, etc.
In the past couple of years, appendix carry has become very cool.
To the point so many dipshits doing it that many classes now ban it.
The general response is, appendix carry is not for everyone.
I don't plan to put a gadget on any of my Glocks, but would be fine with this function as factory feature.
Some seem to be taking this very personally,
To the point of questioning training, experience, etc.
WTF are people so upset over passing on or even expressing disdain over an aftermarket product like this or a Glock safety?
How many aftermarket Glock triggers will drop fire vs factory?
How crappy is an aftermarket safety over what a factory version would be?
So, if I saw a new Glock 19 in the case, with a gen 2 style grip but with rail,
And it came from the factory with a factory designed Glock Thumb Safe feature like this built into it,
The gun would go home with me.
I have known to put a thumb on hammer for almost 40 years.
Rolling my eyes at an aftermarket gadget I have done without on my Glocks for 25 years seems to be a fairly reasonable response on my part.
So, at least for me,
You are correct,
I would not think twice about it as a factory feature.
Of course,
When these do become a factory feature,
Ten years from now the cool in the know guys will be replacing them with the old back plate because their buddy knew a cop that knew another cop that had one stick and got killed, and every .mil guy will be passing on stories of how the old Glocks in the unit were fine but the sand bungs up the Thumb Safe Plate on the new ones.
ramairthree
05-12-16, 19:31
^^^ 100% correct. My point was if you can train AR thumb safety manipulation to a level of unconscious competence, you can do the same think with a handgun.
Damn it, that makes sense.
So much for my plans for an AR kydex trigger guard holster to get rich from so you don't have to worry about the safety.
what the actual??? someone ban that guy
Who Euro, or helluva? I see some redeeming qualities in both, but IMO, Euro edges the other guy as a keeper if we are voting.
SeriousStudent
05-12-16, 20:57
Helluva is on vacation for a bit, resting his typing fingers for a while.
Returning to the thread: As a Glock owner who does not carry AIWB, I can see the use for a Gadget. I'll probably buy one to test.
I reholster very, very carefully, with my thumb on the back of the slide, and my hip stuck out so I am not muzzling the side of my leg. I've watched what an ND can do to a human leg. I have no desire to add to those memories.
My wife carries a G26 daily, behind the hip, in a Mitch Rosen Upper Limit. She especially enjoys the extra layer of safety with the Gadget holstering behind her hip, as unlike appendix, it is harder to look the pistol in the holster to check for a shirt tail or cord from a jacket.
That is the key point. It is not a factory installed, designed, etc.
No, it is not a factory part. Neither are Wilson Combat-made parts in your Brig Tac but that doesn't seem to be a problem?
This one part was tested for six years by multiple testers and under different environments and conditions. I don't even know how many thousands of rounds the test units have seen. I'd like to know what factory Glock part during its development was beat to shit in SouthNarc's fight-for-the-gun evolutions.
As Shivan pointed out, this back and forth is an exercise in futility so I am done here. As I said, I don't care if others want or hate it. All I say that it is laughable how people try to justify their subjective feelings by some "objectively-sounding" bullshit like you have to change your grip when you don't really for IWB/AIWB, or it blow your thumb off when when it won't, or how gun will fire on release when none of us testers had a single ND, or how it is not a factory part when it was tested above and beyond. Awesome quality of a discussion.
Rayrevolver
05-12-16, 21:27
I hate to bring the LEM trigger into this discussion but being able to ride the hammer on reholster was one of the reasons I gave it a shot.
Since we cannot carry in Maryland I did not jump on the kickstarter thing for the Gadget a while back. Seems like a no-brainer for anyone who carries a Glock IWB.
usmcAG2010
05-12-16, 22:08
Lol, sooo it mimics a hammer without the superior trigger pull. I'll stick to my Sig, thanks.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
I am local to the creator and know him through reputation from my work. Some of my close friends of whom I used to work with teach at a local range, and see very high monthly round counts. Now, I have not seen every single shot they have taken, but I've been around them enough to believe that when they (and Tom) say there have been no problems, I do believe them. Having witnessed an individual have an nd while re holstering, I completely understand why this was made and it's practical application. (Personally I would not call it a safety as much as a safety feature.) All this being said, I do believe that due to having several issues with "high dollar" aftermarket glock triggers, I'm not very akin to running non OEM parts as my life does rely on my firearms in many different facets of life. I believe it's a great idea, it's just not for me. Give it it's fair chance, I personally do not think this is nearly as gimmicky as a lot of other stuff. /r
Primus Pilum
05-12-16, 22:53
Since carrying AIWB is right up there with winning the Darwin award in my book, I have no need for this.
Carrying a gun pointed at your junk, having to draw under stress while flagging your junk and all kinda of vital arteries and hoping for the best is not exactly a sound plan. I don't know about yall, but I would rather shoot myself in the big head then the little head.
If people actual slowed down and holstered their weapon like its a LOADED FIREARM, followed the 4 rules, this would not even be a conversation. Slamming your gun into a holster like a bandito and not having situational awareness (Hey maybe its not a good idea to wear a jacket with a drawstring/Chinese buttons while wearing a holster......) is why this happens. If you can't safely holster and handle a firearm, you need to rethink carrying one. If you can't be bothered to wear appropriate clothing while carrying, you need to rethink carrying a firearm. Just a false sense of security for lack of training/experience.
usmcAG2010
05-12-16, 23:18
Looks like a solution in search of a problem to me.
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SeriousStudent
05-12-16, 23:18
You know, we get it. You don't want one. I think we figured out where you stand.
Primus Pilum, why don't you tap the brakes for a bit? That's a hint.
Primus Pilum
05-12-16, 23:42
Is this not an open discussion for the the topic at hand? You singling my posts out for a reason?
You must really have a gear to grind with me, especially banning me for a month for simply disagreeing some someone else in a civil manner.
I have posted ONCE in this thread, yet you feel the need to moderate my posts where no rules were broken and no one has been offended.
Where are your posts chastising anyone else who said essentially the same thing as me in this thread? Is my opinion worthless but theirs are valued?
Forget about the Gadget for a moment -- if a person's appendix holster design, drawing technique and re-holstering technique has them flagging important parts of their anatomy (and there are a lot more important parts there than their junk), they need to adjust their technique. Well designed appendix holsters incorporate a foam wedge to avert the muzzle from the user's body, and thoughtful users tilt their pelvis when re-holstering, so as to further avert the muzzle away from their body.
Is this not an open discussion for the the topic at hand? You singling my posts out for a reason?
You must really have a gear to grind with me, especially banning me for a month for simply disagreeing some someone else in a civil manner.
I have posted ONCE in this thread, yet you feel the need to moderate my posts where no rules were broken and no one has been offended.
Where are your posts chastising anyone else who said essentially the same thing as me in this thread? Is my opinion worthless but theirs are valued?
There are very switched-on, very serious, well-trained people, with shooting and gun handling skills ranging from above average to where almost no one here will ever get to, LEOs, instructors, or regular folks who, through their training, their thought process, or personal experience have made an AIWB their conscious choice. SeriousStudent understands that, either by virtue of a common sense, or by conversing with these people, or both, even though he himself doesn't do AIWB. You, on the other hand, chose to include a Darwin comment in this subject; a comment which, in its nature, is offensive and has nothing to do with the device under the discussion, which works equally well for any type of carry position, in addition to AIWB. So I am not so sure why you are surprised when you're told to pipe down by a moderator whose role is to keep this boards respectful to all members.
I don't understand the negativity towards this.
How many of you would stop buying, using, or recommending Glock pistols, if these came on them from the factory?
It seems like it is an unobtrusive device designed to more safely holster the pistol. Given that it is durable, unobtrusive, and doesn't cause any issues, I really don't see what the issue is with another safety device on a pistol.
I'm dead certain that something like this will be standard at some point in the future. If it's well thought out/engineered/executed with a failure mode of doing nothing to impede the function of the firearm why wouldn't the industry move this way? Hint: they will.
ramairthree
05-13-16, 10:28
No, it is not a factory part. Neither are Wilson Combat-made parts in your Brig Tac but that doesn't seem to be a problem?
This one part was tested for six years by multiple testers and under different environments and conditions. I don't even know how many thousands of rounds the test units have seen. I'd like to know what factory Glock part during its development was beat to shit in SouthNarc's fight-for-the-gun evolutions.
As Shivan pointed out, this back and forth is an exercise in futility so I am done here. As I said, I don't care if others want or hate it. All I say that it is laughable how people try to justify their subjective feelings by some "objectively-sounding" bullshit like you have to change your grip when you don't really for IWB/AIWB, or it blow your thumb off when when it won't, or how gun will fire on release when none of us testers had a single ND, or how it is not a factory part when it was tested above and beyond. Awesome quality of a discussion.
I am dirvoced emotionally from this.
You seem to be on the heavily invested emotionally perspective though.
I get it.
there are some pieces of kit I think work great and have seen dozens of people use extensively without issue that others hate and I get fed up sometimes.
Fair question though.
Bill Wilson was customizing guns since about the time I was finishing grade school.
He has been a pistol manufacturer for a couple of decades.
I have been shooting all metal Berettas for three decades.
They used to come from the factory that way.
He brought out a pistol with all metal parts, using factory parts and some of his own.
Stuff like a guide rod and magazine release.
Stuff like I have put on Glocks.
If he came out with a new drop in integral firing pin/ hammer release lever interval to a new safety allowing cocked and lock carry, standard da/SA hammer down carry, and was a decocker,
I would think that was cool as hell.
I would want one.
Hell, Taurus has been doing it since the early 90s,
And if he and some buddies had put a total of a few hundred thousand rounds through a dozen guns so equipped I would think that was cool.
But at the end of the day I have been shooting them for decades without that set up.
And despite that pedigree and background,
Right or wrong,
I would be influenced by whether or not beretta went with it as a factory model.
I'm dead certain that something like this will be standard at some point in the future. If it's well thought out/engineered/executed with a failure mode of doing nothing to impede the function of the firearm why wouldn't the industry move this way? Hint: they will.
This was in my earlier post, #17 I think:
The problem I foresee is that if said shirttail, underwear waist band, etc. gets into the trigger guard and snags the trigger, it is entirely possible that there will still be pressure on the trigger as the shooter releases the pressure on the Gadget. At that point, the Gadget would function as a sort of release trigger.
This is the reason that your 'hint: they will' is not a very likely end result.
From the information posted, as currently designed that is exactly what will happen when someone releases pressure on the 'Gadget' while there is still sufficient pressure on the trigger.
I noticed several folks, who apparently don't think beyond the scope of their experience, apparently took exception to this observation. I get that a well designed AIWB holster prevents a lot of problems, I further get that shooters should always be aware of the pressures exerted while reholstering and stop if they perceive excess resistance.
I get all that, but it still does not change the fact that when Hop Sing, wearing his Chinese cook's jacket (as Prius Plum noted), snags the trigger, pushes the gun into the holster and releases the 'Gadget' the gun is, on ocassion, going to go bang.
Lawsuit frivolities will ensue. Once someone demonstrates how this occurs to a jury or judge in a civil case, pretty sure we can all predict the outcome. Does not matter how many switched on operators have used it with good success.
I just don't think it is a good idea. As I said, it is a well intentioned product with some potential shortcomings.
Reference AIWB appendix carry, it should be seen as a one way stroke - out of the holster. When the situation is controlled, carefully and deliberately, looking at what you are doing, loosening the belt if necessary, re-holster. If the gun needs to be quickly secured, go to a pocket.
I get that many want to do draw drills from AIWB on a timer or whatever. Fine, slow it down and re-holster safely. This is just a hunch but I'd bet most ND's that put another hole in Mr. Winky occurr during drills.
Linebacker
05-13-16, 17:58
I have an idea. if you like the gadget, buy and install. If you don't, don't.
I think the Gadget is a great idea, but I also think that I'm just not comfortable with anything but a hammer fired DA gun for AIWB. I've done some induced stress training with an inert Glock AIWB and I just never felt that confident with the re-holstering part. Thumbing a hammer is so ingrained into my handling that it's completely subconscious.
Mysteryman
05-13-16, 19:24
^^^ 100% correct. My point was if you can train AR thumb safety manipulation to a level of unconscious competence, you can do the same thing with a handgun.
I agree but why introduce another step into your manual of arms when it's not necessary? With a long gun you have a speed advantage as the rifle is already in hand, and you're generally sporting said long gun because you know of or are reasonably expecting to use it in the near future. Carrying a pistol is a daily routine for many. The situation can go from mundane to life threatening in seconds. Stacking the deck in your favour with a pistol that does not require conscious thought to operate(thinking manual safety here) is just smart play. Training to manipulate a manual safety is a learned behaviour, and so is learning to keep your finger off the trigger. One makes a manual safety obsolete and is valuable when handling ANY firearm and the other gets you closer to a negligent discharge.
Apologies as this is off topic from The Gadget:
As you stated, a rifle's the trigger is not covered/protected by a holster when not in use. So it is prudent to keep a rifle not under your physical control either chamber empty, or safety on if chambered, even if you live alone. Even if I am well trained, Mr. Murphy has a funny way of catching us slipping, For example:
In the past five years, at least six Americans have been shot by dogs
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/10/27/a-dog-shoots-a-person-almost-every-year-in-america/
IME the person who believes they are too A) Good, B) Smart, C) well trained to make a mistake with a firearm is the most dangerous. Everyone, including me, can have an off day. Redundant layers of safety ( 4 rules, training and mechanical / design based) are a good thing given the human condition.
If you have children or pets then yes, the use of the manual safety is a wise idea. Living alone or with others who are competent with firearms, the manual safety is optional. As I mention above, keeping your finger off the trigger is far more important than ensuring you use the manual safety. The sole purpose of a manual safety is to provide another level of security should you LOSE CONTROL of said firearm, as in dropping it or falling down. That being said, if you were in the middle of shooting and dropped your rifle or pistol with the manual safety OFF, then this is all a moot point. When the rifle is in your care custody and control the safety should not be something you are relying on to mitigate an ND, the FUNDAMENTAL FOUR are all that is needed.
While holstering:
1) Clothing getting into the trigger guard, including coat and shirt tails, draw strings and in one case, part of a belt buckle.
2) Holster straps on worn thumb break holsters, particularly pancake style.
Both of the issues above are 100% TRAINING related. Learn to clear your garments before reholstering, and seriously inspect and consider your carry garments. CCW is a lifestyle, you may have to alter your wardrobe to make it work. As for thumb breaks on holsters entering the trigger guard. Check and verify before buying that the snaps and any other retention devices on the holster WILL NOT fit inside your trigger guard. A quality holster will have large thumb snaps that do not fit inside trigger guards. The other answer is to use a different/better holster. Either way, that's a training issue.
Lol, sooo it mimics a hammer without the superior trigger pull. I'll stick to my Sig, thanks.
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What superior trigger pull? 12-16lbs in DA on a SIG is not something to brag about. Perhaps you're referring to the lighter SA pull, in which case there's comparison as even with the "gadget" installed the Glock is still a DAO gun. The "gadget" does not mimic a hammer, it is more akin to a "striker position indicator".
Since carrying AIWB is right up there with winning the Darwin award in my book, I have no need for this.
Carrying a gun pointed at your junk, having to draw under stress while flagging your junk and all kinda of vital arteries and hoping for the best is not exactly a sound plan. I don't know about yall, but I would rather shoot myself in the big head then the little head.
If people actual slowed down and holstered their weapon like its a LOADED FIREARM, followed the 4 rules, this would not even be a conversation. Slamming your gun into a holster like a bandito and not having situational awareness (Hey maybe its not a good idea to wear a jacket with a drawstring/Chinese buttons while wearing a holster......) is why this happens. If you can't safely holster and handle a firearm, you need to rethink carrying one. If you can't be bothered to wear appropriate clothing while carrying, you need to rethink carrying a firearm. Just a false sense of security for lack of training/experience.
Absolutely agree..
Forget about the Gadget for a moment -- if a person's appendix holster design, drawing technique and re-holstering technique has them flagging important parts of their anatomy (and there are a lot more important parts there than their junk), they need to adjust their technique. Well designed appendix holsters incorporate a foam wedge to avert the muzzle from the user's body, and thoughtful users tilt their pelvis when re-holstering, so as to further avert the muzzle away from their body.
I agree with your post but it brings me to another question. If you have to(or rather should) thrust your pelvis out when reholstering and this is something you need to train/learn. Then what I see is AIWB is adding more complexity to your manual of arms which presents the distinct possibility of you forgetting more steps/tips/techniques to operate your equipment efficiently and safely. What also concerns me about this particular technique is that it may not be possible from all positions for all people. So does that mean you just suck it up and sweep your pelvis and the important bits within when reholstering??
MM
The problem I foresee is that if said shirttail, underwear waist band, etc. gets into the trigger guard and snags the trigger, it is entirely possible that there will still be pressure on the trigger as the shooter releases the pressure on the Gadget. At that point, the Gadget would function as a sort of release trigger.
JMO
This could, and should be tested (if not already). I doubt the result will be the weapon firing as the Gadget is released. If something is pressing on the trigger, I do not see how you are going to get the pistol into the holster far enough that you are going to release the Gadget without realizing there is a problem (assuming a properly designed holster). I have not used this device, so I do not know if you feel significant pressure against your thumb as something presses the trigger (as you would with a hammer fired pistol).
Many of us have carried, trained with, and been issued traditional DA/SA pistols. The mantra "de-cock, thumb-check, and re-holster" has followed many courses of fire. It has become second nature.
I will likely transition to a Glock 19 sometime in the near future. I had never heard of the Gadget before yesterday, so it has nothing to do with the decision (and I do not foresee buying one). I do, however, see the appeal for individuals who are ingrained with the procedure of thumb-checking as you holster a pistol.
I was taught to Thumb Check the hammer when re-holstering as a trainee at FLETC in the mid 1990's. It is still taught there and at my Agency. I have also personally seen one self inflicted gunshot wound to the leg which could have been prevented if the officer (who was re-holstering with his finger on the trigger) had thumb checked his hammer.
Thumb checking the hammer is also good protection against foreign objects like jackets, drawstrings etc getting into the trigger guard. One of our taskforce officers in another officer had one of those (AD due to his jacket drawstring) two years ago.
I'm not a AIWB carrier but re holstering on a range, in training is one thing, particularly with a duty / battle belt rig. Re-holstering a Glock, with a plainclothes concealment holster, while you are kicking a dude who is on the ground fighting with your partner is a whole other thing.
I'm actually going to blame "finger on the trigger" in that scenario. Also if you are deliberate about "protecting the trigger" when holstering that goes a long way to prevent NDs. If you have a trigger back that is what decockers and 1911 type safeties are for.
Seems training gets revised every 10 years or so, thankfully most of the stuff I learned in the late 70s related to 1911s still is relevant and useful as it applies to Glocks today.
if you can't be bothered to learn to manipulate a safety, i dont want you around guns, period. You're an inept bungler, apparently
Crap, I can't find the safety on my revolver. I suck.
Mechanical safeties are fine, and anyone scared of their Glock should buy something like a FNX. Glocks are safe if the owner is safe. Mechanical safeties don't make you safe.
If YOU require a mechanical safety to make YOU safe, I don't want YOU around guns because you are not safe.
So after you've been shown video evidence contradicting what you believe would happen you still think it's dangerous to put your thumb behind the slide, then use an anecdotal BS story of some guy being struck with the bolt of a rimfire pistol. A calibre which has drastically less energy than a centre fire.
MM
1. Wasn't a BS story. It was the only time I ever say anyone hit be a slide / bolt.
2. Seen a few slide bites and I assumed that some handgun designs would have enough force in recoil to be dangerous.
3. I'm not going to beta test every handgun design simply because YOU claim it's true across the board.
That said, go thumb a 1911 slide in cycle and show me what happens. If you can hold a 1911 slide in battery with your thumb I will completely concede the point to you. I just don't have enough personal experience to know which slides I can safely hold down with my thumb and which one's I cannot.
More importantly, I can't think of an actual benefit to the practice.
Mysteryman
05-14-16, 01:34
1. Wasn't a BS story. It was the only time I ever say anyone hit be a slide / bolt.
2. Seen a few slide bites and I assumed that some handgun designs would have enough force in recoil to be dangerous.
3. I'm not going to beta test every handgun design simply because YOU claim it's true across the board.
That said, go thumb a 1911 slide in cycle and show me what happens. If you can hold a 1911 slide in battery with your thumb I will completely concede the point to you. I just don't have enough personal experience to know which slides I can safely hold down with my thumb and which one's I cannot.
More importantly, I can't think of an actual benefit to the practice.
The point I was making is that the video demonstrates that a full power 9x19mm cartridge fired in a pistol(a Glock) and the slide was kept shut with simple pressure from the thumb. A .22lr rimfire cartridge has much less energy and the action of any semi auto rimfire can be easily defeated(blocked) with a single digit of your choosing. You admitted to being humbled by the video of the 9x19mm being stopped by a thumb, then proceeded to tell the story of some guy with a rimfire being "thumped pretty good". It doesn't add up.
MM
The point I was making is that the video demonstrates that a full power 9x19mm cartridge fired in a pistol(a Glock) and the slide was kept shut with simple pressure from the thumb. A .22lr rimfire cartridge has much less energy and the action of any semi auto rimfire can be easily defeated(blocked) with a single digit of your choosing. You admitted to being humbled by the video of the 9x19mm being stopped by a thumb, then proceeded to tell the story of some guy with a rimfire being "thumped pretty good". It doesn't add up.
MM
Well I'm going to suggest that perhaps the differences in the inherent design result in different levels of blowback. There is also the fact that the Mark II is a straight blow back firearm while the Glock is locked breech design. I suspect that probably has a lot to do with it.
Tumbing a Glock seems to be a matter of keeping it locked. Can't really do that with an unlocked blow back design. So it seems there is more than a single factor at play. If we really look into it we can probably find multiple factors at play from one design to another.
This is why I'm hesitant to accept the Glock example and apply it across the board to every known semi auto handgun. Because like I said, I watched a guy get thumped pretty good one time by a lowly .22 lr Mark II.
I've been shooting for 25 years...mostly SIGs. Within the last year I started shooting Glocks (19, 21SF...next, likely 30SF). This is the first time I've heard of, or seen this device. I'm curious as to why all of the hate.
"The Gadget" doesn't impede the operation of the firearm...except when you put your thumb on the back of the slide (as I and others have been trained), which prevents the trigger from being pulled (inadvertently; by a booger hook, jackets, other object) when reholstering.
I'm not a fan of CA-or MA-style mandated safeties; I don't like manual safeties (i.e. M9), magwell safeties (mag must be in the firearm to fire), or engraved warnings on firearms (yeah, you Ruger)...I'm also not a fan of gimmicky, faddish additions to guns (if that floats your boat, go for it...just not for me).
I'm a big fan of firearms you can pick-up and fire without manipulating any other controls when you need to fire and keeping your booger hook off the bang switch (being a SIG fanboy); but when your margin for error on a Glock is a 5.5lbs trigger pull, what is the harm of this device?
I don't understand, why this is a bad idea? If you're a purist when it comes to firearms--I can see and understand that.
All I've read are strawman arguments by people who haven't used it, nor viewed the video.
Very good thing to test... someone running one, take primed brass (no powder/bullet), put it into the chamber, pull the trigger with your thumb on the button, then release the button.
If it goes ignites the primer, it would be similar to an H&K P7 system... as holding the trigger any pulling back the squeeze cocker would fire the gun. Only problem would be your thumb is behind the slide, not to mention, you are holstering. If that is the case, that would be enough for me not to suggest it.
Not sure if I fully understand you but if I got it correctly, then perhaps you may not be clear on how it works: you can't pull the trigger when thumbing the Gadget. Most that the trigger will travel will be akin to taking up the slack. If you at that point release the Gadget, whether the gun fires or not depends on how much pressure is still being applied to the trigger.
Eurodriver
05-14-16, 08:43
I've been shooting for 25 years...mostly SIGs.
You don't say?
I don't understand, why this is a bad idea? If you're a purist when it comes to firearms--I can see and understand that.
Added aftermarket parts that directly alter the firing mechanism of the firearm without extensive (30 years) of testing to solve a problem that doesn't exist
All I've read are strawman arguments by people who haven't used it, nor viewed the video.
I don't need to use a Mitsubishi Gallant to know that it's built shittier than a Mercedes, but you bring up an excellent point. Let's ban all discussion of a product by anyone who has never used that particular product on M4C.
I'd gladly give up my right to call this product out for being worthless in order to avoid reading the full retard borderline autistic shit that many members post on a daily basis about shit they've seen only on Instagram.
Rayrevolver
05-14-16, 08:54
If you reholster and feel the gadget push back, isn't that the clue something is wrong?
In these silly scenarios, you are pulling the trigger so of course it will fire.
I guess I don't understand the above scenario and then the statement not to suggest it.
Don't have a gadget installed and pull the trigger... Boom.
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Nocalsocal
05-14-16, 09:02
I've played with one on an instructors pistol and tested out the tactile feedback i.e. thumb pressure when the trigger is moving. For my intended use of off duty (aiwb/iwb) carry, I couldn't think of any negatives. It simply lets the user know that something is moving the trigger/striker when attempting to reholster. Since I'm not a beta tester I can't say it's foolproof or whatnot but the instructor didn't have any complaints about it. I'll probably pick one up if they eventually make one for the Glock 43.
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I don't need to use a Mitsubishi Gallant to know that it's built shittier than a Mercedes, but you bring up an excellent point. Let's ban all discussion of a product by anyone who has never used that particular product on M4C.
I'd gladly give up my right to call this product out for being worthless in order to avoid reading the full retard borderline autistic shit that many members post on a daily basis about shit they've seen only on Instagram.
Dude...your response sounds a little bitchy. No one is calling for any bans on discussion...but your input is less than useful or informative.
Intelligent and genuine information exchange is always valued. Tighten it up a bit, please.
The dude behind The Gadget has posted in this thread, along with some others that have serious use on the device. What a great opportunity for meaningful discussion. (Thanks for coming, guys.)
Assuming no negatives, this provides an opening in the market for a lot of the luddites who are uncomfortable with the switch from hammer fired to striker fired.
While I can understand the skepticism, I can't understand the outright hate.
Here's what I know, some serious pistol shooters have tried this out, and while I don't know if they liked it, or not, the fact that they didn't outright dismiss it should be a clue to those who are skeptical.
I don't carry AIWB, though I am considering a G43 in a vanguard for carrying "deep cover" in legal, but technically "denied", areas of my life. I am not sure they offer one for the G43, but I think I could see the usefulness of this device.
Has it done the "moondust" gauntlets of Asscrackistan? Or Iraq? I'd like to know what the accumulation of dust and debris might do anything at all to the workings. It looks like the gadget opens the back up a little more than the standard back plates do.
G43 device is something that many of us want and I'll let Tom speak to that. I assume that the standard unit should become a reasonable success before that.
The concern to the backdoor opening is something that I have too. It is a small opening but there some nonetheless. I personally have not exposed mine to a lot of debris. I am sure that Tom would now.
Nocalsocal
05-14-16, 10:39
The increased chance of debris getting into the striker channel is a concern of mine as well.
But since I 99.9% carry with a shirt over my G43 and the fact that I wasn't born with a permanent sweater vest I find the likelihood of debris, hair etc. making its way into gun highly unlikely.
Its probability vs possibility in my choice of carry. Please...please...make one for the G43.
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While I cannot speak for Tom, I do remember reading a 42/43 model was mentioned as a future possibility providing the market is good.
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Assuming no negatives, this provides an opening in the market for a lot of the luddites who are uncomfortable with the switch from hammer fired to striker fired.
While I can understand the skepticism, I can't understand the outright hate.
I have many more years and miles on Glocks than I do any other platform. Understanding the safety advantage, and knowing how to use the advantage of a hammer fired pistol doesn't make one a luddite.
I've been shooting for 25 years...mostly SIGs. Within the last year I started shooting Glocks (19, 21SF...next, likely 30SF). This is the first time I've heard of, or seen this device. I'm curious as to why all of the hate.
"The Gadget" doesn't impede the operation of the firearm...except when you put your thumb on the back of the slide (as I and others have been trained), which prevents the trigger from being pulled (inadvertently; by a booger hook, jackets, other object) when reholstering.
I'm not a fan of CA-or MA-style mandated safeties; I don't like manual safeties (i.e. M9), magwell safeties (mag must be in the firearm to fire), or engraved warnings on firearms (yeah, you Ruger)...I'm also not a fan of gimmicky, faddish additions to guns (if that floats your boat, go for it...just not for me).
I'm a big fan of firearms you can pick-up and fire without manipulating any other controls when you need to fire and keeping your booger hook off the bang switch (being a SIG fanboy); but when your margin for error on a Glock is a 5.5lbs trigger pull, what is the harm of this device?
I don't understand, why this is a bad idea? If you're a purist when it comes to firearms--I can see and understand that.
All I've read are strawman arguments by people who haven't used it, nor viewed the video.
I don't hate the gadget or have any strong feelings about it either way. My concern is that it is reliance upon another mechanical device.
What happens when a jacket corner or one of those other nefarious materials that are always finding their way into the trigger guard and causing NDs find their way instead into the open space of "the gadget" and somebody holsters with their thumb on the device BELIEVING they have engaged it and they still get a ND because they didn't get their finger off the trigger and developed poor trigger finger discipline as a result of relying on things like "the gadget"?
That really my only objection / opinion on the matter.
If somebody wants an extra layer of safety, sure go right ahead. But I'd rather a person learn safer gun handling. If your finger isn't on the trigger and nothing else is actuating the trigger your gun isn't going to fire. If you don't have your weapon pointed as something or someone you don't wish to shoot, that isn't going to happen either.
One thing that used to drive me nuts back in the 70s was when the 1911 guys would say "Safety ON" and then turn around to talk the the group while muzzle sweeping half of them. But hey, no worries, safety was on.
I have many more years and miles on Glocks than I do any other platform. Understanding the safety advantage, and knowing how to use the advantage of a hammer fired pistol doesn't make one a luddite.
Agreed. I am old enough, however, that a lot of my contemporaries still consider Glocks as "new fangled." It has taken me a long time to warm to Glocks, and I am just now considering purchasing one. Much of my own resistance stems from understanding the advantages of a hammer fired pistol.
Striker Control Devices ("gadgets") for the 42 and 43 (the 43 slide cover plate is the same height as the 17-41 models, but narrower, and the 42 slide cover plate is the same width as the 43, but shorter) will be produced. I've already paid the tooling costs and have CAD designs that are essentially complete.
Thanks for all your contribution to discussion here, Tom. Means a lot to hear it first hand.
And a big thanks to all thoughtful responses, on all sides.
As the O.P. my intentions were not to divide the community so extensively, in the end these types of things come down to preferences.
My intentions remain, on release of the product I will produce a review. Hopefully we'll have more information to go off of at that time.
But apologies to the mods, and a thank you as well, it's been a bumpy thread.
But, I have enjoyed reading the well thought discussions provided, so thanks again to all who participated in discussion.
If you reholster and feel the gadget push back, isn't that the clue something is wrong?
In these silly scenarios, you are pulling the trigger so of course it will fire.
I guess I don't understand the above scenario and then the statement not to suggest it.
Don't have a gadget installed and pull the trigger... Boom.
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My scenario is a very simple process... however, I'm making it even simpler to see how the product works. I'm not going to ask someone to make a ND condition while holstering, primer or not. The idea is to see exactly what happens, and what the result would be (if a round would go off).
You also might want to go back and actually read my post. I never said I don't suggest it... I said if the device is along the lines of a reversed squeeze cocker on a Glock, I wouldn't suggest it. That is why I asked for that test... if you are using it, GREAT. I wouldn't consider it (or recommend it) without knowing what can happen.
The idea behind it is using a device to give someone the idea that they have control over a part of the gun that isn't in their control in stock form. Now, without it, I would think making sure nothing hanging up between the gun and the holster (shirt) would be one of the things I'd look for when reholstering (if I have clothing in the way, I sweep it away prior to the gun making it to the holster). I want to know what will happen when there is pressure on the trigger and then the force on the device is released.
I don't know what pulling the trigger does to that, but if you say you are going to feel resistance, I don't take it as a safe way of telling you something is wrong. People meet resistance, probably 9 times out of 10, they push harder (more so when amped up). If you have all this confidence in that device, will that make you more susceptible to a ND?
If I'm going to take any amount of training/thought out of firearm handling and replace it with a mechanical device, I want to know all the possibilities that can relate from it.
If this product is going to be more of a tool for the top 1% of shooters, then I disagree with it. If Joe the Plumber decided it looks like a tool to make him safer, puts himself in a crappy situation, then let's a round go off when removing his thumb off the backplate, what is the benefit over proper training?
That was the reason for my post, strictly to get info on the product being discussed.
Screwball, I'm extremely busy (my workforce has recently been reduced by 50%) so I've probably not read every post in this thread as carefully as I should have. Are you asking what happens with a Glock pistol when a force is applied to the trigger (either by a finger or a foreign object) and that force is unopposed?
It often comes up in these discussions that a person can either safely handle their firearm OR they can use a Gadget. The Gadget is not intended to supplant or diminish the need for proper, safe gun handling. If someone wants to buy one so that they can be more cavalier or careless with a loaded gun, I'd strongly suggest they don't -- in fact, I wouldn't sell to a person if I knew that was their intent.
It's a redundant safety feature that otherwise creates no impediment to the operation of the gun. If someone finds the added functionality useless (or dangerous) they obviously shouldn't buy one. We (my late business partner and myself) never expected it to receive universal acceptance and I won't take it personally if someone doesn't want it.
Not what I'm asking, being I qualify with a 30S as my off duty gun. I know what happens when the trigger is pulled. What I'm asking is the interaction of your product when the button is pushed in, and there is a force on the trigger. Follow up to that would be force on the trigger remains, and the button is released.
I am not saying that you are implying that your product is a substitute for safety... but there are plenty of people in the world that look for shortcuts. The people that train to failure and learn from that don't worry me. Those that train somewhat regularly, but have a decent head on their shoulders, don't worry me that much. It is the new shooter that thinks they are Miculek, Ayoob, and Leatham all in one, and thinks safety is seconded to being cool... that is what worries me. In the wake of Sandy Hook, I bought my own Level III armor (I use it at work for times where I want more than a IIIA vest that I'm issued), being I was getting tired of new shooters with ARs muzzle sweeping me, then thinking I'm a jerk because I get pissed off over it. With that being said, I'm looking to see what danger could come out of your product... if used in a way that you did not intend.
As stated, I am fine with the standard Glock system. If I wasn't, I wouldn't carry one by choice. This thread discussed your product, which is very interesting/unique. I have not passed any opinion on it other than my experience with the need, being I rather have my answers before I can say anything about the product, itself (even then, might be more questions asked; I like learning from other viewpoints). If there is a demand for it, there is a market for it... whether I'm in that market isn't relevant to discuss it civilly (I, for one, hate pissing matches... so don't take my posts as such).
Like all manual safeties, it only works if you use it. With your thumb on the Gadget, you'll get some feedback if there is an obstruction of the trigger when reholstering. Only the user can decide to what to do with that information.
Mysteryman
05-15-16, 12:47
Well I'm going to suggest that perhaps the differences in the inherent design result in different levels of blowback. There is also the fact that the Mark II is a straight blow back firearm while the Glock is locked breech design. I suspect that probably has a lot to do with it.
Tumbing a Glock seems to be a matter of keeping it locked. Can't really do that with an unlocked blow back design. So it seems there is more than a single factor at play. If we really look into it we can probably find multiple factors at play from one design to another.
This is why I'm hesitant to accept the Glock example and apply it across the board to every known semi auto handgun. Because like I said, I watched a guy get thumped pretty good one time by a lowly .22 lr Mark II.
You can't rewrite the laws of physics. Blowback or not, the energy in a rimfire cartridge is much less than that of a 9x19mm cartridge. I myself have held the bolt closed on my Ruger 22/45 with my thumb, it's a joke.
I've been shooting for 25 years...mostly SIGs. Within the last year I started shooting Glocks (19, 21SF...next, likely 30SF). This is the first time I've heard of, or seen this device. I'm curious as to why all of the hate.
"The Gadget" doesn't impede the operation of the firearm...except when you put your thumb on the back of the slide (as I and others have been trained), which prevents the trigger from being pulled (inadvertently; by a booger hook, jackets, other object) when reholstering.
I'm not a fan of CA-or MA-style mandated safeties; I don't like manual safeties (i.e. M9), magwell safeties (mag must be in the firearm to fire), or engraved warnings on firearms (yeah, you Ruger)...I'm also not a fan of gimmicky, faddish additions to guns (if that floats your boat, go for it...just not for me).
I'm a big fan of firearms you can pick-up and fire without manipulating any other controls when you need to fire and keeping your booger hook off the bang switch (being a SIG fanboy); but when your margin for error on a Glock is a 5.5lbs trigger pull, what is the harm of this device?
I don't understand, why this is a bad idea? If you're a purist when it comes to firearms--I can see and understand that.
All I've read are strawman arguments by people who haven't used it, nor viewed the video.
This device is a bad idea because it is an attempt to bypass sound training and tactics with a mechanical device. There's a reason we train with sound tactics, so we DON'T rely on mechanical devices which we all know can and do fail. If you're going to train to use the gadget and train yourself to stop holstering when you feel resistance. Then why not train to simply clear the garment(s) properly in the first place. A tactic that works for ALL makes and models and ALL garments. Mechanical devices are a false sense of security and a poor tactic to rely on.
Assuming no negatives, this provides an opening in the market for a lot of the luddites who are uncomfortable with the switch from hammer fired to striker fired.
While I can understand the skepticism, I can't understand the outright hate.
Read above. It's a mechanical device attempting to replace sound tactics and training.
Like all manual safeties, it only works if you use it. With your thumb on the Gadget, you'll get some feedback if there is an obstruction of the trigger when reholstering. Only the user can decide to what to do with that information.
I fully agree. Again, the issue is that the feedback generated is likely due to garments obstructing the holster. Why not train to remove the problem as opposed to training to recognize it via another mechanical device?
Like all ND's the problem is with the user not the tool.
MM
1. Wasn't a BS story. It was the only time I ever say anyone hit be a slide / bolt.
2. Seen a few slide bites and I assumed that some handgun designs would have enough force in recoil to be dangerous.
3. I'm not going to beta test every handgun design simply because YOU claim it's true across the board.
That said, go thumb a 1911 slide in cycle and show me what happens. If you can hold a 1911 slide in battery with your thumb I will completely concede the point to you. I just don't have enough personal experience to know which slides I can safely hold down with my thumb and which one's I cannot.
More importantly, I can't think of an actual benefit to the practice.
Steyr - I routinely fire pistols - striker and exposed hammer - with the slide butted up against my chest or with my thumb holding the slide to demo malfunctions which occur when that happens. What hurts is if you give the slide a little 'running room' - think the difference between a push and a one inch punch.
You can't rewrite the laws of physics. Blowback or not, the energy in a rimfire cartridge is much less than that of a 9x19mm cartridge. I myself have held the bolt closed on my Ruger 22/45 with my thumb, it's a joke.
MM
Not rewriting anything, just remembering.
Steyr - I routinely fire pistols - striker and exposed hammer - with the slide butted up against my chest or with my thumb holding the slide to demo malfunctions which occur when that happens. What hurts is if you give the slide a little 'running room' - think the difference between a push and a one inch punch.
Might be what happened. Nobody was expecting it so we saw "after the fact" results.
Like all manual safeties, it only works if you use it. With your thumb on the Gadget, you'll get some feedback if there is an obstruction of the trigger when reholstering. Only the user can decide to what to do with that information.
sam - at one point, IIRC, you stated you were involved in risk reduction as a profession. Nomenclature is important - is this actually a safety?
What some folks are apparently being obtuse about is the fact that if it is perceived as a safety, even if it isn't marketed as a safety, it is a safety. And you just identified it as a safety. Maybe earlier you didn't, but you just did, so which is it?- I'm doing a poor imitation of plaintiff's attorney grilling you at deposition.
I understand the function of the device, and it's shortfalls (truthfully identified by the manufacturer). I see the use and utility, but I think the concern should be that when some novice shoots themselves using this device there will be litigation. And, this is just my opinion, the bar is weighted on the side of a potential plaintiff.
I don't think it would be a bad idea for you to make and use one, I just think it is a bad idea to sell the product to the public, for the reasons I've listed above.
donlapalma
05-15-16, 13:52
This device is a bad idea because it is an attempt to bypass sound training and tactics with a mechanical device. There's a reason we train with sound tactics, so we DON'T rely on mechanical devices which we all know can and do fail. If you're going to train to use the gadget and train yourself to stop holstering when you feel resistance. Then why not train to simply clear the garment(s) properly in the first place. A tactic that works for ALL makes and models and ALL garments. Mechanical devices are a false sense of security and a poor tactic to rely on.
Why is there the presumption that if you use this device you are not going to practice sound training and tactics? Does it somehow become magically impossible to train to clear garments properly when holstering when or if you install this device on your gun?
Does anybody, who fancies themselves a good and safe driver, drive one of those cars with brake assist or lane departure warning systems? You know the ones that light up when you get to close to another car or start drifting out of your lane? If so, did you find yourself, all of a sudden, not caring and driving like Stevie Wonder?
MountainRaven
05-15-16, 15:19
Reading this thread is like reading every argument about how a 1911 is unsafe and will get you killed because it has a grip safety and a thumb safety and how putting a modified trigger in your Glock will put you in prison 20-to-life for murder if you ever have to defend yourself with it wrapped into one.
The term, "institutional inbreeding" comes to mind.
What does this device do?
Essentially, it gives your Glock pistol a hammer or a LEM trigger - an external means of knowing whether or not something is pulling on your trigger (which, if you don't think that might be something you might do once you've presented your handgun during a high stress situation but you aren't quite legally and morally allowed/obligated to pull the trigger... you might want to read more, post less). Are guns with LEM triggers unsafe? Are they any more dangerous than any other handgun? Are any other double-action hammer-fired pistols unusually dangerous or unsafe because they're double-action?
No, no they are not.
The Gadget will not make a safe shooter unsafe. It will not and cannot make an unsafe shooter safe. It is not a substitute for safe firearms handling, just as a LEM or double-action trigger or the safeties on a 1911 or BHP are not substitutes for safe firearms handling.
What it is, is another tool in your toolbox. And it's not a tool for the top 1% of shooters, either, it's a tool that anyone and everyone can use if they have a modicum of firearms training and just a little bit of common sense.
If you don't get it, you don't get it. Just because you don't get it doesn't make it stupid, retarded, or unsafe.
Goddamn, I wish Todd Green were still alive.
If you don't get it, you don't get it. Just because you don't get it doesn't make it stupid, retarded, or unsafe.
I may "get it", and it still might be retarded; or unsafe. :jester:
I don't think it is, and it seems like it might be a good thing for a narrow band of users, relative to the larger community. That narrow band might also contain 100,000 people, or more.
Will be interesting to see how this is adopted, on the single user level AND any agency level.
Whatever this little gadget is, is not necessary and will eventually cause some type of failure I would imagine. Glock pistols, or any striker fired pistols for that matter were designed to fire reliably out of the box. Nobody should need to add any type of aftermarket contraption as a feel good measure thinking it will make the firearm in question any safer than it already is.
Glock actually manufactures pistols with their own manual safety, I believe they call it "trigger lock". If you are not comfortable with your own firearm handling habits, buy a pistol that has a feel good mechanical safety that you have to operate, OR you can call Glock and see if there is any way you can special order one of their pistols with a manual safety switch.
This contraption will eventually cause an issue because striker fired pistols are designed to function without this little slide cover gadget. If you are not confident in your firearms handling habits, maybe you should not be carrying a firearm?
This thing seems like it's made for the "uncomfortable to carry with a round in the chamber" crowd. No need for it, and it will not make the pistol any safer than it is coming out of the factory.......If someone does decide to install this contraption, good luck, hope it works out for you and doesn't cause any issues.
I've been waiting on the gadget for about six years. My pair can't come fast enough.
Mysteryman
05-15-16, 21:56
Why is there the presumption that if you use this device you are not going to practice sound training and tactics? Does it somehow become magically impossible to train to clear garments properly when holstering when or if you install this device on your gun?
Does anybody, who fancies themselves a good and safe driver, drive one of those cars with brake assist or lane departure warning systems? You know the ones that light up when you get to close to another car or start drifting out of your lane? If so, did you find yourself, all of a sudden, not caring and driving like Stevie Wonder?
No presumption at all, but why add something that offers no advantage over sound training and tactics? There is no issue with reholstering a striker fired pistol or any other pistol for that matter. The issue is the user and their lack of training and/or scrutiny in selecting their gear to include their clothing choices. I see the gadget as a similarly useless item much like the "safe t blok" trigger block POS that is available for folks who wish to carry a Glock without a holster. To each their own, but this gadget doesn't solve any real problems.
MM
G34Shooter
05-15-16, 22:18
Using one for almost two years so far, I don't see a disadvantage if you use it correctly which is thumb holding down the "Gadget" feeling for pressure while safely holstering. It's not complicated, difficult or unsafe IMO but gives an additional safety measure in case something finds its way into the trigger guard. I've witnessed that event in Todd Green's class with a guy holstering his gun with the cord from his jacket entering the trigger guard which Todd just happen to catch. Tom has explained everything pretty well while there's been almost 500k rounds of testing including 200+ evolutions in Shivworks classes. Do I think everyone needs one on their Striker Fired guns? No, but having it as an option on a carry gun is nice to have. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy or carry it, so if it doesn't interest you then why bother clogging up the thread? Many people will buy other items that improve accuracy/precision, ergonomics or looks without blinking an eye yet if there's something that may improve safety while holstering yet has no discovered disadvantages it's outright shunned.
G34Shooter
05-15-16, 22:26
I've been waiting on one of these for years. I was in on the Indigogo thing on day one. Don't hold your breath...
There's been a few snags with the creators including Todd Green passing away 2 months ago after his 10 year fight with cancer. Not everyone is privy to these events but I'm confident it will be released when ready.
sam - at one point, IIRC, you stated you were involved in risk reduction as a profession. Nomenclature is important - is this actually a safety?
What some folks are apparently being obtuse about is the fact that if it is perceived as a safety, even if it isn't marketed as a safety, it is a safety. And you just identified it as a safety. Maybe earlier you didn't, but you just did, so which is it?- I'm doing a poor imitation of plaintiff's attorney grilling you at deposition.
I understand the function of the device, and it's shortfalls (truthfully identified by the manufacturer). I see the use and utility, but I think the concern should be that when some novice shoots themselves using this device there will be litigation. And, this is just my opinion, the bar is weighted on the side of a potential plaintiff.
I don't think it would be a bad idea for you to make and use one, I just think it is a bad idea to sell the product to the public, for the reasons I've listed above.
Yes, I think it is a safety if you use it as a means of enhancing the safety of your firearms handling. Just the same as any other manual safety or decocker. It only works if you use it.
I was in risk reduction/management and it was super boring and stressful. I fly a crop-duster now!:cool:
Straight Shooter
05-16-16, 01:15
I thought about this gadget today while at the range with 3 Glocks. A couple times, my tucked in shirt would loosen and become wedged into my holster. I was very aware of this on the range..but got to thinking maybe I wouldn't be so much in a self defense scenario. Id like to run one for awhile on my G19 and get a feel for it. After thinking on this since this thread as started, I can see a place for this device.
I hope that those who know me and my past history on the internet or in person understand that I am pretty straight forward and I tell it like it is when it comes to new gear, equipment, weapons parts and weapons and I don't even let an affiliation stop me from being blunt. Some in the industry appreciate it, others not so much, but I don't care and I am upfront about it before I take on any new product.
I do quite a bit of testing, evaluation and product development and I have several non-disclosure agreements and this applies with "The Gadget". Sometimes I get paid, sometimes I do it without compensation. No matter what I always remain impartial and only speak to my own opinions drawn from first hand experience. If I do something without compensation there is a strong reason. I am not compensated in any way with this product and I agreed to T&E it because I truly felt that the device provides a real and valuable benefit and that the device or Gadget carried that much importance.
Due to the nature of my NDA with "the Gadget" I am not able to say much and will not address any comments directly like I would like to do, but what I will say is that there are some extremely ignorant statements and very incorrect estimations or conclusions being drawn in this thread. One thing I have learned over many years in the industry doing this type of work, is that it is often unwise to comment or draw conclusions with less than first hand experience handling an item. It is very easy to identify those who don't know, what they don't know here when it comes to "the Gadget" in what it does or does not do and in regards to correct or proper training in general.
I have absolutely no dog in fight when it comes to "the Gadget". I am a huge Glock guy and I am also very skeptical when I come across anything new. I don't jump on bandwagons and I try to make everything new I come across fail. If I cannot make it fail or find egregious fault, then I legitimately attempt to find if the product brings value added or is it just taking up space. Everyone can think what they want and come to whatever non-first hand conclusions they want, maybe show their ass a bit more, but I will say that I will have many Glocks wearing this device and guess what? I will be paying out of pocket for them. I sure as hell wouldn't do that if I thought it was just a gimmick or did not bring tangible benefit to the table. Now if others find no use for the device, not a big deal to me, but there are definitely some conclusions that can be drawn from reading through this thread and it isn't in regards to "the Gadget".
Straight Shooter
05-16-16, 03:47
I hope that those who know me and my past history on the internet or in person understand that I am pretty straight forward and I tell it like it is when it comes to new gear, equipment, weapons parts and weapons and I don't even let an affiliation stop me from being blunt. Some in the industry appreciate it, others not so much, but I don't care and I am upfront about it before I take on any new product.
I do quite a bit of testing, evaluation and product development and I have several non-disclosure agreements and this applies with "The Gadget". Sometimes I get paid, sometimes I do it without compensation. No matter what I always remain impartial and only speak to my own opinions drawn from first hand experience. If I do something without compensation there is a strong reason. I am not compensated in any way with this product and I agreed to T&E it because I truly felt that the device provides a real and valuable benefit and that the device or Gadget carried that much importance.
Due to the nature of my NDA with "the Gadget" I am not able to say much and will not address any comments directly like I would like to do, but what I will say is that there are some extremely ignorant statements and very incorrect estimations or conclusions being drawn in this thread. One thing I have learned over many years in the industry doing this type of work, is that it is often unwise to comment or draw conclusions with less than first hand experience handling an item. It is very easy to identify those who don't know, what they don't know here when it comes to "the Gadget" in what it does or does not do and in regards to correct or proper training in general.
I have absolutely no dog in fight when it comes to "the Gadget". I am a huge Glock guy and I am also very skeptical when I come across anything new. I don't jump on bandwagons and I try to make everything new I come across fail. If I cannot make it fail or find egregious fault, then I legitimately attempt to find if the product brings value added or is it just taking up space. Everyone can think what they want and come to whatever non-first hand conclusions they want, maybe show their ass a bit more, but I will say that I will have many Glocks wearing this device and guess what? I will be paying out of pocket for them. I sure as hell wouldn't do that if I thought it was just a gimmick or did not bring tangible benefit to the table. Now if others find no use for the device, not a big deal to me, but there are definitely some conclusions that can be drawn from reading through this thread and it isn't in regards to "the Gadget".
And..the SMACKDOWN has been laid. Awesome post, sir.
Once you are in full production, will we be able to order the Gadget directly from the manufacturer?
Once you are in full production, will we be able to order the Gadget directly from the manufacturer?
On that topic, just got an email announcement.
Tom says we are 4-6 weeks (conservative estimate) from shipping.
I am liking the sound of that.
I hope that those who know me and my past history on the internet or in person understand that I am pretty straight forward and I tell it like it is when it comes to new gear, equipment, weapons parts and weapons and I don't even let an affiliation stop me from being blunt. Some in the industry appreciate it, others not so much, but I don't care and I am upfront about it before I take on any new product.
I do quite a bit of testing, evaluation and product development and I have several non-disclosure agreements and this applies with "The Gadget". Sometimes I get paid, sometimes I do it without compensation. No matter what I always remain impartial and only speak to my own opinions drawn from first hand experience. If I do something without compensation there is a strong reason. I am not compensated in any way with this product and I agreed to T&E it because I truly felt that the device provides a real and valuable benefit and that the device or Gadget carried that much importance.
Due to the nature of my NDA with "the Gadget" I am not able to say much and will not address any comments directly like I would like to do, but what I will say is that there are some extremely ignorant statements and very incorrect estimations or conclusions being drawn in this thread. One thing I have learned over many years in the industry doing this type of work, is that it is often unwise to comment or draw conclusions with less than first hand experience handling an item. It is very easy to identify those who don't know, what they don't know here when it comes to "the Gadget" in what it does or does not do and in regards to correct or proper training in general.
I have absolutely no dog in fight when it comes to "the Gadget". I am a huge Glock guy and I am also very skeptical when I come across anything new. I don't jump on bandwagons and I try to make everything new I come across fail. If I cannot make it fail or find egregious fault, then I legitimately attempt to find if the product brings value added or is it just taking up space. Everyone can think what they want and come to whatever non-first hand conclusions they want, maybe show their ass a bit more, but I will say that I will have many Glocks wearing this device and guess what? I will be paying out of pocket for them. I sure as hell wouldn't do that if I thought it was just a gimmick or did not bring tangible benefit to the table. Now if others find no use for the device, not a big deal to me, but there are definitely some conclusions that can be drawn from reading through this thread and it isn't in regards to "the Gadget".
Thank you.
donlapalma
05-16-16, 10:58
Surf - a huge thank you for adding your thoughts to this thread. The discussion here needed to be seriously checked and it needed to come from somebody just like you.
I remember the first time I heard about the gadget years ago. Was from the man himself. Instantly I thought why has this not happened yet. It is a genius little part that can add another tool to the mix. It is not going to save a moron from being a moron. You are not going to be joe tacticool. But it will simply be there to tell you if your bang switch is being pressed. Just like a da trigger, thumb her in the holster and that is it. I am not afraid of a striker trigger nor do I unsafely holster. But having that extra redundant safety of feeling the hammer while holstering is nice. I do not see any negatives to this and after being on pistol forum and hearing from all the very squared away dudes and listening to Todd. I trust that this will be good to go once it comes out. Why does everything have to get crapped on? If you do not like it do not get it. But do not throw a bunch of junk out there if you have no real life data on it.
Nocalsocal
05-16-16, 12:13
It seems like a lot of detractors have not even played with one nor even spoken to an actual tester. I've done both and came away impressed. It is not a replacement for proper firearms handling rather an extra level of security in regards to holstering.
Of course the holster should be clear of gear and clothing when presenting or re holstering, but that is the best of circumstances. What happens when life comes up short? For those in LE, what happens when the radio earpiece falls off in a scuffle and you are now reholstering a previously drawn Glock 22? The whole time trying to restrain and focus on a combative individual but the circumstances now require a less than lethal response. Said earpiece or part of the suspects clothing (which you have no control over) is now finding its way to the trigger guard. Just one scenario.
I hate playing "what ifs" but the naysayers are assuming way more of the device than they should.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
SeriousStudent
05-16-16, 22:42
Surf, thank you very much for your post. I have learned much from your videos regarding Glocks and their usage.
Stay safe.
It seems to me from what I've read posted by those who have direct experience with "the Gadget" that it is not really a safety at all but more of a feedback device which does not replace but does contribute to safe handling. It also seems to me that any device installed on a firearm which gives you tactile input of what is going on with the firearm is likely to be a useful device so long as it doesn't detract from the operation of the firearm or bypass any safety feature. I know this isn't an apples to apples example but; in much the same way that 'round count indicators' or 'windows' on some aftermarket magazines give you some easily observed info on the status of a magazine...that info is not critical to the operation of the firearm and it is only useful if payed attention to; it also doesn't take away any degree of functionality. Just my .02
is there an answer to the one handed contact shot scenario? if you must contact shot, particularly in a dynamic fighting situation, the idea is to hold the slide in battery while firing one round, make space, perform immediate action, etc.
for a two handed bracing of the slide, there is no problem with this product. you can hold the front of the slide in a variety of ways.
but the single hand scenario usually requires use of the thumb on the back of the slide while simultaneously discharging the firearm.
it was mentioned that this product was used in shiv works classes. has shiv works simply found you don't need to hold the slide in battery? or does pressure on the gadget keep the slide in battery as you allow your trigger finger pressure to overcome your thumb pressure?
ramairthree
05-17-16, 13:10
It still seems to me there is an unusual amount of butt hurt regarding this product.
With anyone questioning why they should go to one being painted as some amateur.
We don't know what we are talking about because we have not spent 6 years using it during its testing and development.
We don't know what we are talking about because we are leery of it not being factory, just like I am leery of the safety or two out there that is not factory.
If I bring up why it has spent so many years in R&D without coming to market yet will that also bring scorn and derision?
I am off the opinion that I have owned Glocks since the early 90s, done some GSSF and multi gun gun with it, CC, and military training was not really looking for this product. I think I have a similar opinion I did in the late 90s when Para came out with the LDA. Why? My single action 1911 had done me fine for years.
I have my doubts that a poorly trained bunch of LEOs that seem to have a lot of NDs can have one of these installed and be trained to use it and eliminate NDs. I have my leeriness that there will not be cases it freezes up and affects firing. It gives me the opinion I will be just fine without one.
Over the years my doubts may be proven wrong and my leeriness unfounded.
i was wrong 15 years ago when I thought eotechs were nearly on par durability wise with aimpoints and would evolve to equal or better durability and battery life.
I was right in the 80s when I had a Litton on my M60 and said the time will come when we all have RDS and night vision.
I have piles of gear that did not pan out and a much smaller list of things that did.
i have also broken tons of shit over the decades.
It has made me go to a not being the first kid on the block to get something.
why is waving off on one of these being treated as such a horrible thing?
Honestly,
I am not sure what is up.
Why is waving off on one of these being treated as such a horrible thing?
The answer to your question here would be unpopular. It's viewed as an affront to those invested in it, an affront to those who are tied to those invested in it, and it's generally how internet drama pans out.
Here's what needs to happen in this thread. Get back to discussing the Gadget. Get off picking apart the individual posting either praise OR scorn. Much like the lube wars drama, this will be another unicorn antler product internet drama fest.
Eventually, there will be some grand failure, or manufacturing f-up, or cost sheets will get leaked where it cost $0.27 to make, or Botach will scam a copy of one and sell it for $22.99/shipped, or whatever. People will get accused of hating it because Todd Green had something to do with it. People will get accused of loving it only because Todd Green had something to do with it. Everyone on P-F will laud it. People on ARFCOM will eventually start using it, and then hating on it -- as their Cheetos supply runs down.
It's how the world turns, but in this thread: we need to get to first person accounts of its merits, and professional and thought out questions, or possible issues. Signal to Noise needs to get WAY higher on this thread -- or we'll reboot it.
As someone who has enjoyed reading responses on all ends, there is... "Butt hurt"... on both sides.
It's a tricky topic and both sides feel as if their training/time/money is coming to be critiqued or that it becomes a: "Mine's bigger than yours." argument when experience is brought into play.
I, for one, am willing to admit I will never be the most experienced. I'm not LEO, Gun Manufacturing, Mil, or "operator" status as some are. Therefore, my time behind firearms is limited, in comparison, to someone who works in those industries daily.
I don't want that to appear to be an excuse for me trying it out, because I have been carrying multiple striker fired, no manual safety, firearms for awhile (heck the Canik TP9v1 is a DA/SA with no trigger-safety or manual safety). My EDC is with me, well, everyday. Most days, when I get home, I throw my Canik on my belt OWB as well.
While I should be looking at it opposite, strapping another gun as I walk out the door, it's just a comfort thing for me.
When it comes down to "The Gadget", a lot feel targeted for vouching their support due to, it seems, some miscommunication. There are individuals who believe this to be a replacement safety, or a way to neglect the four cardinal rules.
I get it, I really do. I know that this could be a potential hazard for those who believe this could supersede those rules. But, in all reality, if someone is willing to think a device, even a manual safety for that matter, can overcome/negate the four cardinal rules; they're an individual who is at risk to have an issue regardless of utilizing "The Gadget" or not. The whole point of the cardinal rules is that they still apply even with a slide/bolt/carrier locked back and chamber visually empty.
Alas, I don't want to be preachy, I can see both sides. I also don't want to be "Na-na; I am on the fence of this debate.", but without it in my hands, I want to avoid any foot-in-mouth situations, good or bad, so I will refrain from posting a factual opinion of the product until I can do so legitimately.
I am very happy with the feedback that has come thru, but I am not sure if there is much more opinion that can be added, on either side, until we have these items in hand.
Not targeting anyone in a disrespectful manner, just wanted to point out some observations at this time.
ETA:
The answer to your question here would be unpopular. It's viewed as an affront to those invested in it, an affront to those who are tied to those invested in it, and it's generally how internet drama pans out.
Here's what needs to happen in this thread. Get back to discussing the Gadget. Get off picking apart the individual posting either praise OR scorn. Much like the lube wars drama, this will be another unicorn antler product internet drama fest.
Eventually, there will be some grand failure, or manufacturing f-up, or cost sheets will get leaked where it cost $0.27 to make, or Botach will scam a copy of one and sell it for $22.99/shipped, or whatever. People will get accused of hating it because Todd Green had something to do with it. People will get accused of loving it only because Todd Green had something to do with it. Everyone on P-F will laud it. People on ARFCOM will eventually start using it, and then hating on it -- as their Cheetos supply runs down.
It's how the world turns, but in this thread: we need to get to first person accounts of its merits, and professional and thought out questions, or possible issues. Signal to Noise needs to get WAY higher on this thread -- or we'll reboot it.
Agreed, thanks Shivan for the great analogies and point.
is there an answer to the one handed contact shot scenario? if you must contact shot, particularly in a dynamic fighting situation, the idea is to hold the slide in battery while firing one round, make space, perform immediate action, etc.
for a two handed bracing of the slide, there is no problem with this product. you can hold the front of the slide in a variety of ways.
but the single hand scenario usually requires use of the thumb on the back of the slide while simultaneously discharging the firearm.
it was mentioned that this product was used in shiv works classes. has shiv works simply found you don't need to hold the slide in battery? or does pressure on the gadget keep the slide in battery as you allow your trigger finger pressure to overcome your thumb pressure?
I will make sure to test this on arrival of the product.
While I would think, just based on the physics, that you could overcome the "extra-trigger-pull" instituted by your thumb placement, I wonder how it will actually respond. Especially since letting your thumb up would create a bit of "running room" for the slide as soon as the gadget "dropped" back into place as the striker releases. (if continued applied pressure, we're talking maybe a few milliseconds of unlocking occurring. I just dunno how this will correspond in application).
I don't think it will actually cause any issues, but I will still try it out and see how it feels. :)
556BlackRifle
05-17-16, 14:30
T_J, Firstly glad your wife is doing better and secondly, condolences for the loss of your friend. Hang in there brother...
Nocalsocal
05-17-16, 14:37
Wow..thank you for clarifying the whole R&D thing. I too was wondering why it took 6 yrs to develop.
It is rather unfortunate that a personal traumatic event such as yours has to be shared on an internet forum but that is where we are nowadays.
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
My Walther PPS has this feature, the striker has to protrude from the rear of the gun before it can fire. Keeping your thumb on the back while holstering is supposed to stop any NDs. Assuming all Walther strikers have this feature as well.
Much of the next couple years was spent living in hotels and hospitals as she visited specialists in other states and underwent numerous surgeries to save her leg and restore much of the length that was lost when they originally put her back together, and then teaching her to walk again.
Much respect. I know of that story, your life, as it were -- and I am now putting "the pieces" together.
Much respect....
Wow..thank you for clarifying the whole R&D thing. I too was wondering why it took 6 yrs to develop.
It is rather unfortunate that a personal traumatic event such as yours has to be shared on an internet forum but that is where we are nowadays.
It was a pretty big national story, for a little bit. Then they smoked the shooter at a gas station.
No scorn or derision.
I give you a big set of kudos for being transparent within your business and product.
That's a set of situations that would be difficult to remain dispassionate to; I know it is for me, and I'm just a third-party looking in.
Thank you for expressing your story. Beyond the fact that, for the story itself, no one would blame you for withholding.
But it says a lot about your character and business mentality to express it in a way of explanation.
Most importantly, I am glad your wife is doing well. I am happy to hear that it sounds like things are starting to come together for you.
Condolences for your friend, and business partner, Todd Green. I wouldn't wish cancer on my worst enemy.
Thanks for continuing on with the venture you both started.
ramairthree
05-17-16, 15:52
I am genuinely sorry for what you and your family and friend have been through.
I was not expecting such a response.
I was generically asking if questioning the time frame would also be met with similar criticism.
Hell,
I'll end up buying one just out of respect for the perseverance.
We did want to test it thoroughly, but beyond that life has been a bit complicated for the two inventors (myself and Todd Green) for the past several years.
Much of the next couple years was spent living in hotels and hospitals as she visited specialists in other states and underwent numerous surgeries to save her leg and restore much of the length that was lost when they originally put her back together, and then teaching her to walk again. Shortly (less than 90 days) after my wife was shot, Todd's cancer came back with a vengeance and he spent the next couple of years undergoing chemo, radiation treatments, and numerous surgeries (including the complete replacement of his elbow) before finally succumbing this past March.
If any of this comes across as scorn or derision, that's not my intent. I'm just trying to relay the events of the past several years as dispassionately as possible.
Tom Jones - As noted I have some concerns, but I applaud your innovation.
Likewise, I share the sentiments of the many who have offered comfort for the events that have shaped your life the last couple years. I hope as well as taking care of your wife and supporting you good friend in his battle, you have taken care of yourself. Best wishes to you and yours.
Posted 10 hours ago.
Production has been requested to start full swing. 28 days before official production run is over.
Thanks again Tom for your continued effort in your adventure.
I am very excited to get one of these in hand.
39749
Where are people going to be purchasing these if they weren't part of the gofundme?
I first heard about this product a few years ago. But wasn't willing to part with cash for something that seemed like it has already had a ton of set backs. Until now I wasn't aware of the cause of the delay.
G34Shooter
07-15-16, 22:18
Where are people going to be purchasing these if they weren't part of the gofundme?
I first heard about this product a few years ago. But wasn't willing to part with cash for something that seemed like it has already had a ton of set backs. Until now I wasn't aware of the cause of the delay.
You will be able to continue buying them through the gofundme, for those that don't want to pre-pay than just wait a few more months when it's in full production.
Anyone have any new info?
RAM Engineer
02-09-17, 21:58
Got mine a couple of weeks ago, but I haven't had a chance to install it yet.
SeriousStudent
02-09-17, 23:57
I have one on my most used Glock, a Gen2 G19 that is my regular carry gun. This pistol has over 52,000 rounds through it, and has had multiple parts checked and replaced. I am a Glock armorer, and the pistol has been checked by a Glock armorer instructor.
The Gadget took about two minutes to install. Most of that was verifying the pistol was unloaded, removing the slide, and then putting it back together. The actual install takes seconds. Re-assemble is the normal procedure.
I then triple-checked that it was not loaded, holstered the gun, and did my normal daily dry practice session. No differences were observed in the feel of the trigger.
Note - I normally use a SIRT for my dry practice sessions, NOT my carry pistol. I focus on a precise master grip, efficient presentation, and a prefect trigger press, Speed is never my focus.
I like the Gadget or SCD, and will be ordering more as soon as I put a few hundred more rounds through it. I'm also taking it to a HiTS Basic Pistol class later this month, to get impressions from very new shooters.
Overall - I think it's an excellent tool, and I am buying 8 more to put on the rest of my Glocks that will take them. I think Tom is working on a Gadget for the G42 and G43, and I'll buy those as soon as they are available.
I don't have any financial stake in the Gadget, I've never meet Tom in person, and I paid the regular retail price for mine. I've received no freebies or other compensation.
But judging from all the ND's I have heard of and personally witnessed, I really wish for this to succeed. Plus, Tom is a cool guy and deserves to be rich. :)
Got mine about a week and a half ago.
Install, as SS has mentioned, takes seconds. Very impressed with it so far.
I certainly echo SS in all regards of the gadget.
donlapalma
02-10-17, 07:09
I have one and will buy more for sure. Great addition to the Glock. Simple in installation and function. Works as intended and trigger feel has not changed.
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