View Full Version : MARCUS LUTTRELL’S SAVIOR, MOHAMMAD GULAB, CLAIMS ‘LONE SURVIVOR’ GOT IT WRONG
Primus Pilum
05-12-16, 11:24
http://www.newsweek.com/2016/05/20/mohammad-gulab-marcus-luttrell-navy-seal-lone-survivor-operation-red-wings-458139.html
Has anyone read this? No love to Newsweek, but this is just another confirmation of reports and books that point to Marcus, The Navy, The Book and the Movie being dishonorable liars and tall tales.
The military covering up epic screw ups by spinning stories of heros and throwing out medals is nothing new.
Thoughts?
If even a quarter of that is true, it changes a lot of opinions I have about people.
Primus Pilum
05-12-16, 13:36
Check out Victory Point - http://www.amazon.com/Victory-Point-Operations-Whalers-Afghanistan/dp/042523259X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1463077991&sr=8-1&keywords=victory+point
There is ALOT of public info out there going back about 10 years that disproves and pokes holes in Marcus/Navy's stories. This is just another piece to add on the pile.
Lots of Marines, Rangers, SF, ISR , and other folks involved in the AO, operation and recovery have publicly called out the official narrative.
If you , me or anyone else made up a lie, and profited off it, It would be a crime (fraud). How is this different?
Aspects of this story have been covered in this forum.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?155922-Jury-Awards-Ventura-1-8M-in-Defamation-Case-Against-%91American-Sniper%92-Chris-Kyle/page6
There is now mounting evidence that both Chris Kyle and Marcus Luttrell, both friends while in the Navy, planned to leave the service and market their exploits. Both men appear to have lied repeatedly in their books, in the news, and at public appearances to promote themselves and each other's books. Luttrell's lies span both his military service and personal life. Kyle's lies seem to be limited to his post-military life, but there is a side of me that wonders...
Clearly, these men performed a number of great services to their country. They also sacrificed far more than most. But, those services and sacrifices do not absolve their commitment to the truth.
For the life of me, I will never understand why anyone who has accomplished so much feels the need to exaggerate or embellish. It's like a millionaire going out of his way to steal $5.
I can accept the reality of putting the "best face" on tragedy and telling people that someone killed on a mission "died directly engaging the enemy and taking the fight to them" even if the truth might be he was hopelessly pinned down and riddled with small arms fire.
But I will never understand the guys who walked away, taking more than their deserved share of the credit. I can also understand guys permitting a tall tale on a completely successful operation, but when people are killed, that isn't the time to talk about your super hero antics, even if it is actually true. When it comes to certain groups, the only lying I expect out of them is to attribute brave actions to fallen members that they themselves might have actually done in order to honor the dead.
It's that jock mentality that goes with hyper Type A personalities.
Nobody has killed more ragheads, drank more liquor, screwed more virgins, drove more sport cars past 100 MPH, won more fist fights, or has a bigger winky-dink.
Even if successful, it isn't enough. And under the right situations; it's a great trait to have. But then again, you eventually end up as a power tool because you can do anything but admit you're human.
That whole scenario could've ended completely different if it weren't for one guy taking a chance.
And, if article is true, discarding him like a one night stand is actually pretty dishonorable.
This really was a literal 21st Century Good Samaritan.
Primus Pilum
05-12-16, 19:37
Neither were millionaires before the book/speaking circut/movie rights.
Now the Luttrells are multi-multi Millionaires and the Kyles even after losing the defamation lawsuit are worth a few $M from the book/movie rights alone. Wouldn't be suprised if both parties will continue to get residuals for the rest of their lives.
Its not different then someone making up a bunch of stories about how the saved lives on 9/11, wrote a book, sold movie rights and made millions. The difference is that dude would be in jail for felony fraud.
Since the Navy & DoD would rather whitewash their ****ups where American Service members die due to incompetence........... in favor of made up heroic stories, no one will do shit. Ever notice how the Navy has never really said to much about the situation other than small PR pieces and hasn't commented on the validity of the story. They have remained ambiguous not really calling it out but not really saying its how it went down.
Hopefully the true story comes out and its mainstream.
Really makes you start to question alot of the heroics and stories from military heros of wars past. They have shown int he last 15 years from Lynch to Tillman to Redwings that they have no problems making up stories and lying to the public for political capital. Was it always this way, just without the Internet as venue for people who were there to call bullshit? There are probably hundreds or thousands of other instances that had no political value so no one ever heard about them.
In my little limited circle/experience/deployments I saw 3 soldier die due to complete NCO/Officer incompetence. Instead of being held accountable for their actions and using as a lesson learned going forward, The story was spun, lies were told and awards were given to all parties. Silver Stars and Bronze Stars all around........Families would rather hear their loved ones died a hero then they died because the NCO in charge of them was a ****ing moron with no common sense or tactical competence. So the bullshit never ends. Probably the oldest schick in military history next to stealing gear and getting out of details. 2 greek hoplites ****ing each other so they don't have to go dig a latrine line or fletch some arrows.....
You guys should check out his gofundme site. Regardless of which story is truly accurate, he deserves a second chance in this country.
Donate to Gulab (https://www.gofundme.com/226v8csk)
Primus Pilum
05-12-16, 19:43
It's that jock mentality that goes with hyper Type A personalities.
Nobody has killed more ragheads, drank more liquor, screwed more virgins, drove more sport cars past 100 MPH, won more fist fights, or has a bigger winky-dink.
Even if successful, it isn't enough. And under the right situations; it's a great trait to have. But then again, you eventually end up as a power tool because you can do anything but admit you're human.
That whole scenario could've ended completely different if it weren't for one guy taking a chance.
And, if article is true, discarding him like a one night stand is actually pretty dishonorable.
This really was a literal 21st Century Good Samaritan.
Redwings was doomed to fail before they even left the compound. Non existent planning, disregarding advice of AO experts and piss poor tactical/recon skillsets. SEALS want to do all the cool guy shit but don't want to put in the time/effort to do the mundane shit that makes the cool guy shit work. It is beneath them. And this is a big reason they have paid a heavy price in blood.
Redwings was doomed to fail before they even left the compound. Non existent planning, disregarding advice of AO experts and piss poor tactical/recon skillsets. SEALS want to do all the cool guy shit but don't want to put in the time/effort to do the mundane shit that makes the cool guy shit work. It is beneath them. And this is a big reason they have paid a heavy price in blood.
Yeah....
Lone Survivor, American Sniper, Bravo Two Zero, and all these Doc Hollywood war stories make great books and seem all amazing but...
They are steeped in failure and fabrication
I'm sure there are hundreds of untold stories about unsung heroes that will never get told because everything went according to plan and everyone was on the ball. And though I shall never hear of it, I'd love to hear those stories
ETA as per cops letting a Navy SEAL go for killing two hoods....lol no.
A SEAL can't even get out of a DUI beef even after 0300 and being the only car and parked. And HE shot Bin Laden
Cagemonkey
05-12-16, 20:23
What a Sad World. Thanks for the info. I had no idea.
Even the bullsh!t is bigger in texas
If true, very sad and quite shameful. I am sure some people bought into it more than most.
SEALS want to do all the cool guy shit but don't want to put in the time/effort to do the mundane shit that makes the cool guy shit work. It is beneath them.Had no idea you'd met every guy in every platoon of each team?
Primus Pilum
05-12-16, 23:13
Had no idea you'd met every guy in every platoon of each team?
When a huge sample size of highly respected/decorated Fellow Tabbers/Raiders, STS dudes and even reguar Army/Marines all say the same thing after working with them , it's a hint.
SEAL community has no infantry/basic soldiering background. When shit goes sideways, they are lost. Hell they are lost before shit goes sideways as evidented by redwings where just about every single basic recon rule was broken. Lets take a SDVT and drop them at 8K for a recon mission in landlocked Afganistan.................It would be halarious if it wasn't so sad and tragic. Good men lost their lives because their leaders and SEAL community failed to train them and put them in a position to fail.
8 160th guys lost their lives due to incompetence and a SEAL led QRF that broke all the rules and signed everyone on that plane's death warrant.
When a SF team or Ranger platoon get sideways, they fall back into their basic infantry skillsets that were honed before they got where they are. When a MARSOC unit gets ambushed, every guy there has his 0311 training to fall back on, basic infantry skills that allow them to react to contact or ambush. They know and understand the basics to a professional level. It is in their blood. There is a reason the competent SOF branches plan and train and rehearse missions until everyone can do them in their sleep. Planning is 90% of the mission success. There is a reason the vast majority of SF and Delta boys come from the ranger Batts. There is a reason that most have nothing but contempt and bad things to say about working with SEALS, either detached or as a team/platoon. None of this shit is secret, its all open source. All my by Ranger and Marine buddies have nothing but bad shit to say about their experience either training or working with the SEAL community. If you heard some of these stories it would make you red in face.
When a huge sample size of highly respected/decorated Fellow Tabbers/Raiders, STS dudes and even reguar Army/Marines all say the same thing after working with them , it's a hint.
SEAL community has no infantry/basic soldiering background. When shit goes sideways, they are lost. Hell they are lost before shit goes sideways as evidented by redwings where just about every single basic recon rule was broken. Lets take a SDVT and drop them at 8K for a recon mission in landlocked Afganistan.................It would be halarious if it wasn't so sad and tragic. Good men lost their lives because their leaders and SEAL community failed to train them and put them in a position to fail.
8 160th guys lost their lives due to incompetence and a SEAL led QRF that broke all the rules and signed everyone on that plane's death warrant.
When a SF team or Ranger platoon get sideways, they fall back into their basic infantry skillsets that were honed before they got where they are. When a MARSOC unit gets ambushed, every guy there has his 0311 training to fall back on, basic infantry skills that allow them to react to contact or ambush. They know and understand the basics to a professional level. It is in their blood. There is a reason the competent SOF branches plan and train and rehearse missions until everyone can do them in their sleep. Planning is 90% of the mission success. There is a reason the vast majority of SF and Delta boys come from the ranger Batts. There is a reason that most have nothing but contempt and bad things to say about working with SEALS, either detached or as a team/platoon. None of this shit is secret, its all open source. All my by Ranger and Marine buddies have nothing but bad shit to say about their experience either training or working with the SEAL community. If you heard some of these stories it would make you red in face.
What is it that you do? Basic soldiering learned as an 11B is not why SF are good at what they do. You don't even have to be infantry to go SF. And SEALs are more than capable of working in non-maritime environments...
All my by Ranger and Marine buddies have nothing but bad shit to say about their experience either training or working with the SEAL community. If you heard some of these stories it would make you red in face.
Not to dispute any of that, but I can think of at least one SEAL who did four tours and the vast majority of what he did was over watch to protect Marines from the Iraqi's trying to kill them. Sadly he was killed by a Marine veteran who he was trying to help with his PTSD issues.
Perhaps the actual problem with SEALs isn't that they can do this but can't do that, but instead aren't properly deployed in many cases according to their specific skill set.
ColtSeavers
05-13-16, 00:10
When a huge sample size of highly respected/decorated Fellow Tabbers/Raiders, STS dudes and even reguar Army/Marines all say the same thing after working with them , it's a hint.
SEAL community has no infantry/basic soldiering background. When shit goes sideways, they are lost. Hell they are lost before shit goes sideways as evidented by redwings where just about every single basic recon rule was broken. Lets take a SDVT and drop them at 8K for a recon mission in landlocked Afganistan.................It would be halarious if it wasn't so sad and tragic. Good men lost their lives because their leaders and SEAL community failed to train them and put them in a position to fail.
8 160th guys lost their lives due to incompetence and a SEAL led QRF that broke all the rules and signed everyone on that plane's death warrant.
When a SF team or Ranger platoon get sideways, they fall back into their basic infantry skillsets that were honed before they got where they are. When a MARSOC unit gets ambushed, every guy there has his 0311 training to fall back on, basic infantry skills that allow them to react to contact or ambush. They know and understand the basics to a professional level. It is in their blood. There is a reason the competent SOF branches plan and train and rehearse missions until everyone can do them in their sleep. Planning is 90% of the mission success. There is a reason the vast majority of SF and Delta boys come from the ranger Batts. There is a reason that most have nothing but contempt and bad things to say about working with SEALS, either detached or as a team/platoon. None of this shit is secret, its all open source. All my by Ranger and Marine buddies have nothing but bad shit to say about their experience either training or working with the SEAL community. If you heard some of these stories it would make you red in face.
Were you given a forced vacation from TOS? Is that why you've suddenly shown up here with all sorts of outlandish posting all over this sight this week.
Primus Pilum
05-13-16, 00:21
Not to dispute any of that, but I can think of at least one SEAL who did four tours and the vast majority of what he did was over watch to protect Marines from the Iraqi's trying to kill them. Sadly he was killed by a Marine veteran who he was trying to help with his PTSD issues.
Perhaps the actual problem with SEALs isn't that they can do this but can't do that, but instead aren't properly deployed in many cases according to their specific skill set.
That guy you were talking about (Kyle) is a proven liar as well. You know the one who said he smoked 2 guys at a gas station but the local LEO's let him off without so much as an incident report? The one who in court was proven to defame another SEAL and make up stories?
Thats why these articles are important man. People build some of these guys in the spotlight up as heros and it turns out that many of their exploits are lies. Nothing more dishonorable to a service member than lying about it. There are plenty of real deal American heros out there to idolize if people so wish. It's just a shame the ones with the loudest mouths and who spin the most BS end up with all the money and fame.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
05-13-16, 00:23
When a huge sample size of highly respected/decorated Fellow Tabbers/Raiders, STS dudes and even reguar Army/Marines all say the same thing after working with them , it's a hint.
SEAL community has no infantry/basic soldiering background. When shit goes sideways, they are lost. Hell they are lost before shit goes sideways as evidented by redwings where just about every single basic recon rule was broken. Lets take a SDVT and drop them at 8K for a recon mission in landlocked Afganistan.................It would be halarious if it wasn't so sad and tragic. Good men lost their lives because their leaders and SEAL community failed to train them and put them in a position to fail.
8 160th guys lost their lives due to incompetence and a SEAL led QRF that broke all the rules and signed everyone on that plane's death warrant.
When a SF team or Ranger platoon get sideways, they fall back into their basic infantry skillsets that were honed before they got where they are. When a MARSOC unit gets ambushed, every guy there has his 0311 training to fall back on, basic infantry skills that allow them to react to contact or ambush. They know and understand the basics to a professional level. It is in their blood. There is a reason the competent SOF branches plan and train and rehearse missions until everyone can do them in their sleep. Planning is 90% of the mission success. There is a reason the vast majority of SF and Delta boys come from the ranger Batts. There is a reason that most have nothing but contempt and bad things to say about working with SEALS, either detached or as a team/platoon. None of this shit is secret, its all open source. All my by Ranger and Marine buddies have nothing but bad shit to say about their experience either training or working with the SEAL community. If you heard some of these stories it would make you red in face.
I'm sorry, but WTF are you talking about? I was no high speed guy in the .mil, but I can't imagine the high speed guys talking about what really made them elite was a 3 month trip to ITB....
A good friend of mine had some solid advice for you in another thread....
Primus Pilum, why don't you tap the brakes for a bit? That's a hint.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
05-13-16, 00:25
Double shot...
Primus Pilum
05-13-16, 00:30
What is it that you do? Basic soldiering learned as an 11B is not why SF are good at what they do. You don't even have to be infantry to go SF. And SEALs are more than capable of working in non-maritime environments...
I didn't say thats why they are good at what they do. No one said you have to infantry to go SF, but the vast majority of non 18x guys who make it through selection are either 11x or scroll guys. One of my buddies in my last unit was an aircraft mechanic who went to SFAS and failed out on the first day. Lots of people try and fail. The Land Nav course alone will crush the soul of just about any combat arms guy so how do you think soft skill MOS guys do? One guy has been spending every other month in the field with a 100lb pack on his back training. The other sits in an air conditioned facility sipping coffee and doing paperwork. Which one has a better chance at passing selection?
Having basic soldier skills to fall back on when things don't go as planned is an priceless intangible that is organic to warrior communities. You always fall back to your training and muscle memory. Battle drills are no different for a basic training company squad or a SF squad. The difference is the SF squad can do it to perfection. They always have the training to fall back on when needed.
When core competencies are ignored and people operate outside of their specialties this is what happens. SEALS are great at short DA missions, that is their bread and butter. Dropping a 4 man team in injun country for a recon/kill mission where the AO experts have already determined a 6 man team is the absolute smallest size element that can prodivde it's owns security, and the guys don't even know the basic rules of reconnaissance or ignored/neglected most of the prep work required for a successful mission is lunacy man. A cherry E2 11B would look at this and tell it was FUBAR from the ground up. Too much Ego and Hubris got alot of great Americans killed that day.
Primus Pilum
05-13-16, 00:32
I'm sorry, but WTF are you talking about? I was no high speed guy in the .mil, but I can't imagine the high speed guys talking about what really made them elite was a 3 month trip to ITB....
A good friend of mine had some solid advice for you in another thread....
Where did I say that is what makes them great? I never said that man.
BoringGuy45
05-13-16, 01:02
Not to dispute any of that, but I can think of at least one SEAL who did four tours and the vast majority of what he did was over watch to protect Marines from the Iraqi's trying to kill them. Sadly he was killed by a Marine veteran who he was trying to help with his PTSD issues.
Perhaps the actual problem with SEALs isn't that they can do this but can't do that, but instead aren't properly deployed in many cases according to their specific skill set.
I think that's been the main problem. While most of the SOF forces are capable of almost all the missions on the special operations spectrum, too often our forces, both special and conventional, are used outside their main expertise. Special Forces are supposed to focus on unconventional warfare. SEALs are supposed to focus on small unit (usually maritime) direct action missions and special recon. Rangers focus on airfield seizure and larger scale direct action raids. So forth and so on.
If you read about some of the missions the SEALs have undertaken as of late, it's getting a bit out of their element. Before the War on Terror and Iraq, SEALs generally didn't go missions in groups much larger than a platoon (16 SEALs). They did hit, run, and slide back into the river. If you read about some of the missions they're doing nowadays, they're often going on operations with 40-50 SEALs. When you go on a mission requiring that many guys, you're starting to get into a gray area between special operations and light infantry. That's supposed to be the specialty of the Rangers. Why are they sending SEALs on Ranger-oriented missions? Who knows.
Regardless, the SEALs have a legendary reputation and being among the best at what they are supposed to specialize in. When they're called upon to do other units' jobs...I don't know.
The DEVGRU boys(or whatever they are calling themselves this week) are in another league, but I agree that if you bought a white side SEAL for what he said he was worth and sold him for what he is worth you'd lose a lot of money.
If only they could keep quiet this thread wouldn't exist.
I didn't say thats why they are good at what they do. No one said you have to infantry to go SF, but the vast majority of non 18x guys who make it through selection are either 11x or scroll guys. One of my buddies in my last unit was an aircraft mechanic who went to SFAS and failed out on the first day. Lots of people try and fail. The Land Nav course alone will crush the soul of just about any combat arms guy so how do you think soft skill MOS guys do? One guy has been spending every other month in the field with a 100lb pack on his back training. The other sits in an air conditioned facility sipping coffee and doing paperwork. Which one has a better chance at passing selection?
Having basic soldier skills to fall back on when things don't go as planned is an priceless intangible that is organic to warrior communities. You always fall back to your training and muscle memory. Battle drills are no different for a basic training company squad or a SF squad. The difference is the SF squad can do it to perfection. They always have the training to fall back on when needed.
When core competencies are ignored and people operate outside of their specialties this is what happens. SEALS are great at short DA missions, that is their bread and butter. Dropping a 4 man team in injun country for a recon/kill mission where the AO experts have already determined a 6 man team is the absolute smallest size element that can prodivde it's owns security, and the guys don't even know the basic rules of reconnaissance or ignored/neglected most of the prep work required for a successful mission is lunacy man. A cherry E2 11B would look at this and tell it was FUBAR from the ground up. Too much Ego and Hubris got alot of great Americans killed that day.
Again, what do you do?
That guy you were talking about (Kyle) is a proven liar as well. You know the one who said he smoked 2 guys at a gas station but the local LEO's let him off without so much as an incident report? The one who in court was proven to defame another SEAL and make up stories?
Thats why these articles are important man. People build some of these guys in the spotlight up as heros and it turns out that many of their exploits are lies. Nothing more dishonorable to a service member than lying about it. There are plenty of real deal American heros out there to idolize if people so wish. It's just a shame the ones with the loudest mouths and who spin the most BS end up with all the money and fame.
Like I said, I don't have a problem with all that. What I'm saying is there are a lot of Marines who are alive today due to his efforts.
So let me put it in terms you can understand.
Exaggerated Seal Stories < Actually did FOUR tours dedicated to saving lives.
And the "other SEAL" he defamed was Jesse Ventura, so take your pick, pot or kettle.
I think that's been the main problem. While most of the SOF forces are capable of almost all the missions on the special operations spectrum, too often our forces, both special and conventional, are used outside their main expertise. Special Forces are supposed to focus on unconventional warfare. SEALs are supposed to focus on small unit (usually maritime) direct action missions and special recon. Rangers focus on airfield seizure and larger scale direct action raids. So forth and so on.
If you read about some of the missions the SEALs have undertaken as of late, it's getting a bit out of their element. Before the War on Terror and Iraq, SEALs generally didn't go missions in groups much larger than a platoon (16 SEALs). They did hit, run, and slide back into the river. If you read about some of the missions they're doing nowadays, they're often going on operations with 40-50 SEALs. When you go on a mission requiring that many guys, you're starting to get into a gray area between special operations and light infantry. That's supposed to be the specialty of the Rangers. Why are they sending SEALs on Ranger-oriented missions? Who knows.
Regardless, the SEALs have a legendary reputation and being among the best at what they are supposed to specialize in. When they're called upon to do other units' jobs...I don't know.
Not the first time. Bush 41 was another President who didn't understand how to best employ special operations. Operation Just Cause was almost tailor made for Rangers, but SEALs got sent in anyway and they got caught in the open and hammered hard.
"Task Unit Papa was tasked with the seizure of Paitilla airfield and the destruction of Noriega's plane there. Several SEALs were concerned about the nature of the mission assigned to them being that airfield seizure was usually the domain of the Army Rangers. Despite these misgivings and a loss of operational surprise, the SEALs of TU Papa proceeded with their mission. Almost immediately upon landing, the 48 SEALs came under withering fire from the PDF stationed at the airfield. Although Noriega's plane was eventually destroyed, the SEALs suffered four dead and thirteen wounded."
TheChunkNorris
05-13-16, 05:45
Again, what do you do?
Life support and reads a lot of books.
I was C-130 CSAR Radio Operator for 6 years and have been working privately overseas with pretty much all the US forces, conventional and SF. I've also heard from his brethren that he was what people in the "know" make him out to be. Hopefully this doesn't turn into a dick pulling match and we discuss what is being said now.
Again, what do you do?
He runs his mouth on the internet. + he's FOS, besides residing on my IL.
SEAL's train hard for when the $hit goes bad. They're usually always outnumbered and if they make contact, they are trained to break contact and get the heck out of dodge and quickly.
Boringguy gets it.
The DEVGRU boys(or whatever they are calling themselves this week) are in another league, but I agree that if you bought a white side SEAL for what he said he was worth and sold him for what he is worth you'd lose a lot of money.
If only they could keep quiet this thread wouldn't exist.
The term "Silent Professional" comes to mind.
As has been mentioned, neither SF nor MARSOC require an infantry MOS. Actually, same can be said for SAS/SBS as well. Their pipelines are good enough to teach fundamentals.
I have known some truly remarkable NSW operations and some truly ****ed-up NSW operations, but in this particular instance (Operation Red Wings), as has been laid out in other threads, they went into it all ****ed up. I don't honestly know if the outcome was due to causation or merely correlation.
I will say, though, that people hang on Luttrell's words as they were Holy Scripture, but for better or for worse he says that his recollections from that op were just that, recollections, from a first-person, very subjective perspective. That said, I don't think he (or anyone else) should get a pass for outright lying. There is a difference between "this is the way I saw it go down" and "this is the way it really went down."
Primus Pilum
05-13-16, 08:43
I was donated a ticket to one of his speeches a few years ago. Big old dinner affair with about 1,000 people who all paid in excess of $100/ticket. There was no humility or ambiguity. He recalled the events as gospel down to minute details that someone in that kind of situation poablly wouldn't even remember. He made it known how he was shot 40 times, RPGs and frag all over his body, bit off his tounge and crawed 7 miles through the most arduous terrain on the planet.
Entertaining while throwing down half a dozen scotches but every .mil dude siting at the table all said he sounded full of it.
Sad thing is lots of people gave lots of time and money away based on lies and tall Tales. That is the definition of fraud, and is a crime in all 50 states.
I went to a speaking engagement in Dallas and wondered some of the same things. He said that later it was determined he crawled 7 miles. In that terrain. Same with the amount of times he was shot. Weird stuff.
You know, I'm not a Navy SEAL or anything cool but...
If something really unfortunate happened to me and I was able to get out of it when a lot of people didn't. I'd make good on my life debt and probably just totally withdraw from the world.
I don't know if that is the right answer but it would be mine.
KalashniKEV
05-13-16, 10:11
But, those services and sacrifices do not absolve their commitment to the truth.
Don't forget about alllll the witnesses who dropped sworn statements saying Kyle vs. Ventura took place at 1 in the afternoon, 3, or after dark.
I'm not blaming just the SEAL community for this, but it's really an integrity problem in the entire United States Navy. They tell these obvious bullshit stories and when you call them out they just smile and call it "Sea Stories."
I work in a Navy-centric company, and we're connected to others like us, including SEAL-centric companies. When they get busted they're all like, "I'm sure people in the Army do the same damn thing!" and I'm like... Ummm yes, but they're E-2 privates- and then they get their asses beat.
It seems like they all just sit around telling lies to each other and that's cool-with-the-crew.
I'm not down with that.
http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1028/7399/products/170932_grande.jpeg?v=1445388342
My cousin is a SEAL also, and there is a bit of truth to what this PP guy is throwing down, but he's laying it on too thick.
It's better if you give them an out like, they lack access to training areas like we have, or they're so busy with operational deployments they don't have time for a really long field problem, or why do they need to occupy a patrol base anyway with their (traditional) mission set?
Also, I'm sure the Army made some mistakes conducting the largest amphibious assault in the history of the world that the Marines would not have made...
ETA as per cops letting a Navy SEAL go for killing two hoods....lol no.
It was because he had the secret Pentagon hotline!
(...I actually have this saved in my phone, but it's really just a second entry of my GF's number. She's supposed to "authenticate" the LEO and then confirm me as an operational asset conducting a mission that is classified as MAJESTIC-12 and above. Not sure how she's gonna know it's not just me calling though... damn!)
Don't forget about alllll the witnesses who dropped sworn statements saying Kyle vs. Ventura took place at 1 in the afternoon, 3, or after dark.
I'm not blaming just the SEAL community for this, but it's really an integrity problem in the entire United States Navy. They tell these obvious bullshit stories and when you call them out they just smile and call it "Sea Stories."
To your first comment, this is truth. Any cop or lawyer will tell you eyewitness testimony is totally unreliable if not corroborated.
As to your second, that is some utter bullshit right there. My almost-20 years in the Navy tell me otherwise. I do agree it IS an integrity issue, for some reason it seems NSW cornered the market, but I can cite puh-lenty of examples of some of the other services doing that same BS.
KalashniKEV
05-13-16, 10:30
To your first comment, this is truth. Any cop or lawyer will tell you eyewitness testimony is totally unreliable if not corroborated.
This wasn't black car/dark blue car stuff though... they blatantly lied because they thought it would help their guy, then signed their name to it. It's embarrassing.
As to your second, that is some utter bullshit right there. My almost-20 years in the Navy tell me otherwise.
Didn't mean to strike a nerve, and I don't do inter-service rivalry stuff, but this is my observation. It was interesting to me that they even have a name for it.
This wasn't black car/dark blue car stuff though... they blatantly lied because they thought it would help their guy, then signed their name to it. It's embarrassing.
Didn't mean to strike a nerve, and I don't do inter-service rivalry stuff, but this is my observation. It was interesting to me that they even have a name for it.
No worries. Again, to your first point, you are right. Like I said in an earlier post, there is a difference between "this is how it went down from my perspective" and the objective truth in how something went down. And I loathe lying to CYA or to perpetuate a story like that.
Sea Stories are as old as Davy Jones' locker and are a staple of Naval service. Sociologically speaking I think I recall it came from the old sailing ship days when you told stories to pass time. At any rate, I don't care for CYA lying about ops to embellish myths, etc. That stuff always seems to come out in the end.
I like Bing West, the Marine Corps historian/author. He really tries to dissect MC operations, and he usually pulls no punches when the Marines go full retard, and he will go the mat with leadership.
Averageman
05-13-16, 10:52
Gulab got screwed. His family has been in constant danger, they have lost family members, property and have been made a target since he helped Luttrell. Whatever we can do to help him and his village is just a small portion of a repayment to what we owe them.
All of the finger pointing and chest thumping is irrelevant to the OP and the article. Perhaps it is relevant to why we can't win though, we tend to get lost in the sauce and forget what is relevant and important in these matters.
KalashniKEV
05-13-16, 11:11
All of the finger pointing and chest thumping is irrelevant to the OP and the article.
It is highly relevant because it speaks to the organizational culture of NSWC, the missions they are trained to perform, and the missions they are called on to perform, and how they adapt based on who they are, which is a product of how they're grown, etc...
If you want to zoom it in on "this Hadji got screwed" then yeah... I guess that's the end of the discussion here.
Gulab is still alive, living in Ft. Worth, and apparently has a gofundme with a few thousand dollars in it.
1000 better dudes than him have quickly found their way into a ditch in both theaters.
As to your second, that is some utter bullshit right there. My almost-20 years in the Navy tell me otherwise. I do agree it IS an integrity issue, for some reason it seems NSW cornered the market, but I can cite puh-lenty of examples of some of the other services doing that same BS.
I'm not ready to impugn the integrity of the Navy or even NSW. However, I am willing to say there is a recent pattern of NSW leaving the service to profiteer at the expense, either known or unintentionally, of their fellow service members. ML is a classic example. Most people on this forum are probably unaware of the pain caused to the Murphy and Axelson families when ML made the claim that a vote was taken to execute the villagers. Keep in mind that this claim was NEVER anywhere in his sworn statement or mentioned to Murphy's father or Axelson's wife. It came up only when Marcus decided to write a book, and it sparked immediate condemnation from the decedents' families. But we never heard those protestations because everyone was two busy watching the pew...pew...pew with cool painted ARs.
Bottom line: if you want to learn about some amazing warriors, look to real historians like Rick Atkins. If you want to get loose yourself in fantasy, then read a book (or watch a movie) by a service member about their experiences.
Eurodriver
05-13-16, 11:30
I work in a Navy-centric company, and we're connected to others like us, including SEAL-centric companies. When they get busted they're all like, "I'm sure people in the Army do the same damn thing!" and I'm like... Ummm yes, but they're E-2 privates- and then they get their asses beat.
This made me lol
I'm not ready to impugn the integrity of the Navy or even NSW. However, I am willing to say there is a recent pattern of NSW leaving the service to profiteer at the expense, either known or unintentionally, of their fellow service members.
Bottom line: if you want to learn about some amazing warriors, look to real historians like Rick Atkins. If you want to get loose yourself in fantasy, then read a book (or watch a movie) by a service member about their experiences.
Agreed. As I said, there is an integrity issue with NSW, and I also agree that regardless of intentionally or not, there are downhill consequences. I don't know why that particular community seems to race to market books, seminars, movies, and workout schemes; whereas, most of the others are bar far fewer and further between.
Maybe I should write a book about my time as a corpsman with the Marines. It would read like this: "Hey, Johnson, drop trou. I'm gonna give you 250 mg of ceftriaxone for your gonorrhea. And don't forget to hydrate before we head out for the forced march."
I will also say historically there is very much a ton of value in 1st person narratives. It seems like the value though has really been increasingly "devalued" over the past 15 years or so, especially made worse by historically-iffy books turning into totally unhistorical movies under the guise of "Based on the true events of....." But like everything, it all needs to be taken into context, like Lone Survivor read along with Victory Point: Operations Red Wings and Whalers and Operation Red Wings: the Rescue Story behind Lone Survivor. I agree that "real" historians, to me, are preferable to get "the real story" as they use multiple sources to corroborate the events.
Primus Pilum
05-13-16, 11:47
http://nonprofits.findthecompany.com/l/1680270/Lone-Survivor-Foundation
Here is a look at the Lone Survivor Foundation. It breaks down the income and expenses.
4 Employees who all make MUCH more than comparable rehab charities in that location (They avg $60K a year, local avg is $29K)
And then the big whopper, $319K for "Professional fees", by far their biggest expense. Want to guess where all those fees went? Here is an except from the link: The organization's primary cost driver is professional fees, which accounted for 33% of total expenses in 2013. This is fairly atypical for a Vocational Rehabilitation Organization of this size: other organizations in this peer group spent most of their budget on personnel.
So with all this money going to personel & "pro fees", how much money actualy makes it to the program or recipients?
Voodoochild
05-13-16, 13:02
I advise everyone here to keep this civil and professional. Stop the personal attacks.
BoringGuy45
05-13-16, 15:22
One of the issues I've had with SEALs in the past is the overly vigilant protection of their "brand". I know false SEAL claims are a major problem, so SEALs instinctively bristle if they see a guy with a SEAL-related hat or shirt. However, some treat the Trident or even the word "SEAL" the same way outlaw biker gangs treat their logos. One SEAL on a now-defunct website proudly stated that, while at the gym, he saw a guy with a shirt that said "Supporter of the U.S. Navy SEALs." He promptly walked over to the guy and told him to take of the shirt before he ripped it off and shoved it up his ass. The guy complied, and then the SEAL, though he didn't own or work at the gym, told the guy to leave and if he ever came back, he'd beat the guy to within an inch of his life. Of course, a few of the SEALs buddies piled on and posted that they should find the guy and kick his ass anyway for disrespecting the SEAL community like that.
I don't get this. I mean they have the right to call out a guy who is falsely claiming to be a SEAL. But look at it this way, if I wear a jersey of my favorite sports team, I'm supporting them, not claiming that I play for them. If I wear a shirt that clearly says "Supporter" of the SEALs, I'm not claiming to be a SEAL, just because the acronym "SEAL" appears on it as well. Harassing people who want to support them is not honorable serviceman behavior; that's some Hells Angels shit.
When I was in high school and in my first year of college, my goal was to be a SEAL. I met a couple SEALs, and most were encouraging of my ambitions. However, I did meet one and his encouragement was "Yeah, you and every other punk-ass kid in America," and he warned me to shut up about wanting to be a SEAL until they pinned a Trident on my chest. The emphasis was that it disrespected the SEALs to even think that you're good enough to be one until you've proven that you actually are good enough.
So the issue is, as was pointed out earlier, that this is an organization that attracts hyper-masculine Type A+++ personalities. There are a lot of good SEALs, and I'd say probably most of them are quiet professionals. A guy I went to school with is now a former SEAL, and he NEVER talks about his service. But there are a number of them who do need to take it down a notch.
Old post from here http://www.duffelblog.com/2014/05/us-navy-seal-training-writing-course/
Old post from here http://www.duffelblog.com/2014/05/us-navy-seal-training-writing-course/
That was hilarious.
WickedWillis
05-13-16, 18:55
This is a pretty damning article in regards to the entire mythos that has been created around the story. I hope Gulab gets done right by Luttrell.
Boba Fett v2
05-13-16, 20:38
Those close to me know how I feel about "celebrity SEALs". Not sure why PP was banned, but to shut him the f**k up as if he didn't have a valid argument smells of the same BS we we say about Social Justice Warriors and those who reside on the left side of politics.
pointblank4445
05-13-16, 20:56
ETA (nevermind my rant)
I'm sorry to hear that someone like Gulab who went against the grain to do the right thing is getting that kind of a deal (if the article is accurate). Perhaps he can learn a thing or two from an American institution:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCLTRjF2eq0
From what I gather, he had plenty of chances to stay in the USA, but for whatever reason(s) initially declined. He's been paid what in Afghanistan is a lifetime fortune, and yet still can only live in his village hovel? All the while, the mighty taliban attempts to kill him, but is thwarted at every turn...for YEARS. But, they can get letters to him via the "burrow express"? And now they are just trolling him.
The one DA the Tali executes on his home, and he and his wife successfully repel them with their two Kalashnikov rifles. Because of course, they had the "high ground".
Lone Survivor story may well be embellished, but I ain't buying this dudes story of betrayal. It's like an episode of "Taliban a-team meets afghan Mr Bean".
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Straight Shooter
05-13-16, 21:39
Yeah....
Lone Survivor, American Sniper, Bravo Two Zero, and all these Doc Hollywood war stories make great books and seem all amazing but...
They are steeped in failure and fabrication
I'm sure there are hundreds of untold stories about unsung heroes that will never get told because everything went according to plan and everyone was on the ball. And though I shall never hear of it, I'd love to hear those stories
ETA as per cops letting a Navy SEAL go for killing two hoods....lol no.
A SEAL can't even get out of a DUI beef even after 0300 and being the only car and parked. And HE shot Bin Laden
Agree 100%. Im to the point that Im SICK of the words SEAL & SNIPER. Been used/overused to f-ing DEATH. I wont go see these flicks anymore, because of the bullshit factor, and also because they almost always use some Hollywood Lib faggot to portray the real heros and that chaps my ass. Also- WHY cant people accept the fact there are aspects to certain things militarily that regular people like me DONT NEED TO F-ING KNOW? I got no problem with that, just know that good men risked their safety & lives doing it is enough for me. WHY make a bullshit movie and add fake, false shit?
Dist. Expert 26
05-13-16, 21:53
I have a very hard time believing that a man who was shot x amount of times, blown up, dehydrated etc could recall an entire mission verbatim. It's a good book and all, but it's more of a story than a factual account.
As to NSW seeming to have a lack of judgment when it comes to the media I don't think there's really any question. SF, Delta, Rangers MARSOC, etc,don't often go on t.v. seeking personal fame and fortune. SEALs, on the other hand, are more than eager to get their fifteen minutes of fame. Hell, they're getting their own show on the history channel. It's ridiculous.
Boba Fett v2
05-13-16, 22:09
From what I gather, he had plenty of chances to stay in the USA, but for whatever reason(s) initially declined. He's been paid what in Afghanistan is a lifetime fortune, and yet still can only live in his village hovel? All the while, the mighty taliban attempts to kill him, but is thwarted at every turn...for YEARS. But, they can get letters to him via the "burrow express"? And now they are just trolling him.
The one DA the Tali executes on his home, and he and his wife successfully repel them with their two Kalashnikov rifles. Because of course, they had the "high ground".
Lone Survivor story may well be embellished, but I ain't buying this dudes story of betrayal. It's like an episode of "Taliban a-team meets afghan Mr Bean".
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Why is it so hard to fathom? The guy saved Luttrell's life and risked his own because he felt it was the right thing to do. There's honor in that, and I have no reason to question his integrity or motives behind it. He had nothing to gain from helping Luttrell and put his own safety at risk because of it. So out of nowhere he just wants to f**k over Luttrell? Luttrell's account of those events has been questionable since day one, and he makes no qualms about milking his experience for all its worth. Where's the humility and silent professionalism? I'd like to think all service men and women are of the highest moral caliber, but 20+ years on active duty I know for damn sure that ain't true. We can sit here and pick apart Gulab's account all day long, but let's consider the fact that the guy doesn't speak English and a lot could've been lost in translation with his dealings with Luttrell and other people involved which may have contributed to the situation he's in.
You know what really strikes me about this. This is yet another of Glenn Beck's "good friends" whom he knows so well. Beck basically broke the story to the public via a phone interview with ML, after which they became fast friends and GB delivered the "truth" to the masses.
Really makes you wonder.
You know what really strikes me about this. This is yet another of Glenn Beck's "good friends" whom he knows so well. Beck basically broke the story to the public via a phone interview with ML, after which they became fast friends and GB delivered the "truth" to the masses.
Really makes you wonder.
Add Sean Hannity and Andrew Wilkow to that list.
Add Sean Hannity and Andrew Wilkow to that list.
Really? Never heard of Andrew Wilkow. To hear Beck tell it, he an ML were thick as thieves. I don't really hear Hannity too often, I didn't know he was in on it too.
Most of the differences were minor. But a few turn that battle against some of the world’s most dangerous militants into something far less heroic. Gulab maintains the SEALs were far from the stealthy, superhuman warriors described in Lone Survivor. They didn’t die because they spared civilians, he says; they died because they were easily tracked, quickly outmaneuvered and thoroughly outgunned. The militants, like many others in the area, heard the helicopter drop the Americans on the mountain, Gulab claims. The next morning, they began searching for the SEAL’s distinctive footprints. The way Gulab heard it from fellow villagers, when the militants finally found them, the Americans were deliberating about what to do with the goat herders. The insurgents held back. After Luttrell and company freed the locals, the gunmen waited for the right moment to strike.
This is what went through my head when I saw the movie.
Why is it so hard to fathom? The guy saved Luttrell's life and risked his own because he felt it was the right thing to do. There's honor in that, and I have no reason to question his integrity or motives behind it. He had nothing to gain from helping Luttrell and put his own safety at risk because of it. So out of nowhere he just wants to f**k over Luttrell? Luttrell's account of those events has been questionable since day one, and he makes no qualms about milking his experience for all its worth. Where's the humility and silent professionalism? I'd like to think all service men and women are of the highest moral caliber, but 20+ years on active duty I know for damn sure that ain't true. We can sit here and pick apart Gulab's account all day long, but let's consider the fact that the guy doesn't speak English and a lot could've been lost in translation with his dealings with Luttrell and other people involved which may have contributed to the situation he's in.
Right...and I'm not really commenting on that aspect of it. All I'm saying is it sounds as if there is plenty of embellishment to go around. Probably most of it with the Newsweek crew and the typical anti mil slant they often seem to want to put on everything.
My comment was just an observation that the guy has been from Vegas to Texas, has a book deal, and was offered a house. But somehow ends up right back where he started...hunted by the mighty Taliban in the Heart of the Korengal valley. With only his wife, family, and their two trusty AK's between them and certain death.
Does it not seem odd that the Tali had no trouble locating and smoking the SEAL team, but can't seem to get this guy?
I don't know, and obviously you are far more experienced than me at this, but something just seems wrong about the whole thing.
Right...and I'm not really commenting on that aspect of it. All I'm saying is it sounds as if there is plenty of embellishment to go around. Probably most of it with the Newsweek crew and the typical anti mil slant they often seem to want to put on everything.
My comment was just an observation that the guy has been from Vegas to Texas, has a book deal, and was offered a house. But somehow ends up right back where he started...hunted by the mighty Taliban in the Heart of the Korengal valley. With only his wife, family, and their two trusty AK's between them and certain death.
Does it not seem odd that the Tali had no trouble locating and smoking the SEAL team, but can't seem to get this guy?
I don't know, and obviously you are far more experienced than me at this, but something just seems wrong about the whole thing.
He is back in Texas so you know...
Some of his story does not make sense, that I agree with. For example, he said Luttrell still had 11 mags, but did they have any ammo in them? No enemy bodies were found apparently, but as we all know they often return to drag them out; how do we know that did not happen? There are some other inconsistencies as well.
MountainRaven
05-14-16, 01:59
He is back in Texas so you know...
Some of his story does not make sense, that I agree with. For example, he said Luttrell still had 11 mags, but did they have any ammo in them? No enemy bodies were found apparently, but as we all know they often return to drag them out; how do we know that did not happen? There are some other inconsistencies as well.
Remember the scene in Red Dawn (the real one, not the one with Thor) where Colonel Strelnikov asks another officer how many insurgents he thinks they've killed and the officer responds with some figure like two dozen. Strelnikov says that he saw only the two (whose bodies they have recovered or are in the process of recovering) and the officer shrugs and says, "Of course, they carry the bodies of their dead off into the mountains."
As Strelnikov said, "Lies have the stink of defeat." ;)
Remember the scene in Red Dawn (the real one, not the one with Thor) where Colonel Strelnikov asks another officer how many insurgents he thinks they've killed and the officer responds with some figure like two dozen. Strelnikov says that he saw only the two (whose bodies they have recovered or are in the process of recovering) and the officer shrugs and says, "Of course, they carry the bodies of their dead off into the mountains."
As Strelnikov said, "Lies have the stink of defeat." ;)
Valid and cognizant. I do not for a second believe they were up against anymore than twenty men, at the very most, but there is no way they did not kill at least one. The only possibility in my mind for not, would be they were ambushed and completely and utterly caught off guard and killed almost immediately, which in that case Luttrell had to have popped smoke and left them for dead. Which could explain why Gulab said he had eleven mags (if they were in fact at capacity). I sincerely doubt that scenario though.
Remember the scene in Red Dawn (the real one, not the one with Thor) where Colonel Strelnikov asks another officer how many insurgents he thinks they've killed and the officer responds with some figure like two dozen. Strelnikov says that he saw only the two (whose bodies they have recovered or are in the process of recovering) and the officer shrugs and says, "Of course, they carry the bodies of their dead off into the mountains."
As Strelnikov said, "Lies have the stink of defeat." ;)
Insurgents we fought in Iraq in 2005 were very good at recovering their wounded and dead. There were several times after firefights that we couldn't find any bodies but then a few dead guys would show up in the local hospital a couple days later.
Moose-Knuckle
05-14-16, 03:52
SF, Delta, Rangers MARSOC, etc,don't often go on t.v. seeking personal fame and fortune. SEALs, on the other hand, are more than eager to get their fifteen minutes of fame. Hell, they're getting their own show on the history channel. It's ridiculous.
I have the privilege of knowing a gentleman who has spent the whole of his adult life in the Army. He was an 18 Echo on an ODA during Mr. Reagan's dirty little wars down in Central America. The man can speak five languages fluently, his German is so good he has a specific regional accent. He use to take extended nature walks behind the Iron Curtain while assigned to USMLM. His best man at his wedding (after the Cold War) was a former Stasi officer that ended up saving his life on one of his excursions over the wall.
He finally retired from active duty after suffering a spinal injury sustained while executing a HALO jump in the Balkans. During one of our meetings he was sharing some of his exploits over fine cigars when I asked him if he ever thought about writing a book. He then told me that he had taken multiple oaths to never divulge any of the shit he'd done and that after changing names and dates it would just be another work of fiction.
There is a reason SF Soldiers are referred to as Quite Professionals.
I have the privilege of knowing a gentleman who has spent the whole of his adult life in the Army. He was an 18 Echo on an ODA during Mr. Reagan's dirty little wars down in Central America. The man can speak five languages fluently, his German is so good he has a specific regional accent. He use to take extended nature walks behind the Iron Curtain while assigned to USMLM. His best man at his wedding (after the Cold War) was a former Stasi officer that ended up saving his life on one of his excursions over the wall.
He finally retired from active duty after suffering a spinal injury sustained while executing a HALO jump in the Balkans. During one of our meetings he was sharing some of his exploits over fine cigars when I asked him if he ever thought about writing a book. He then told me that he had taken multiple oaths to never divulge any of the shit he'd done and that after changing names and dates it would just be another work of fiction.
There is a reason SF Soldiers are referred to as Quite Professionals.
Send a glass of bourbon his way in respect.
Boba Fett v2
05-14-16, 09:03
Just a refresher...
US Navy Adds Intense Creative Writing Course to SEAL Training (http://www.duffelblog.com/2014/05/us-navy-seal-training-writing-course/)
Boba Fett v2
05-14-16, 09:34
Right...and I'm not really commenting on that aspect of it. All I'm saying is it sounds as if there is plenty of embellishment to go around. Probably most of it with the Newsweek crew and the typical anti mil slant they often seem to want to put on everything.
My comment was just an observation that the guy has been from Vegas to Texas, has a book deal, and was offered a house. But somehow ends up right back where he started...hunted by the mighty Taliban in the Heart of the Korengal valley. With only his wife, family, and their two trusty AK's between them and certain death.
Does it not seem odd that the Tali had no trouble locating and smoking the SEAL team, but can't seem to get this guy?
I don't know, and obviously you are far more experienced than me at this, but something just seems wrong about the whole thing.
I would give consideration to his claims simply because he's given no reason for me to doubt his integrity up to this point. Again, his account is being presented through an interpreter, so who knows what might have got lost in translation, and can we really trust a major media outlet like Newsweek to give us the whole truth without f**king something up? OTH, Luttrell's version of events have been highly questionable since day one. I know guys who are read-on as to what really happened because of their involvement in this situation. I'll just leave it at that. Everyone else can continue to suck SEAL cock-n-balls and guzzle the cum infused Kool-Aid for all I care. 'Murica.
Just a refresher...
US Navy Adds Intense Creative Writing Course to SEAL Training (http://www.duffelblog.com/2014/05/us-navy-seal-training-writing-course/)
Jeez...that site is pure gold.
Glad to hear they are close to a cure for "butt hurt disease". Lol
Boba Fett v2
05-14-16, 09:41
Jeez...that site is pure gold.
Glad to hear they are close to a cure for "butt hurt disease". Lol
I love duffleblog.
Everyone else can continue to suck SEAL cock-n-balls and guzzle the cum infused Kool-Aid for all I care. 'Murica.
Eeeuuww.
That sounds about as tasty as rainbow ice cream poop from a unicorn's sphincter.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YbYWhdLO43Q
I would give consideration to his claims simply because he's given no reason for me to doubt his integrity up to this point. Again, his account is being presented through an interpreter, so who knows what might have got lost in translation, and can we really trust a major media outlet like Newsweek to give us the whole truth without f**king something up? OTH, Luttrell's version of events have been highly questionable since day one. I know guys who are read-on as to what really happened because of their involvement in this situation. I'll just leave it at that. Everyone else can continue to suck SEAL cock-n-balls and guzzle the cum infused Kool-Aid for all I care. 'Murica.
Yeah that's a fair point. Who knows. And I'll defer to you on the other stuff because I have no idea, and spent no time over there so I don't feel I even have any business commenting on that part of the story either way.
Eeeuuww.
That sounds about as tasty as rainbow ice cream poop from a unicorn's sphincter.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YbYWhdLO43Q
Ok, y'all are just nasty...lol
I know Marcus personally and I know a ST10 guy who was part of the recovery op. Also got to know Mike Murphy through mutual friends when I was over in Hawaii.
I've heard the story told firsthand and can honestly say that it has most definitely "grown" over the years. Between the fog of war, head shed reporting, celebrity, money and just military guys in general, I always look at everything through that lens.
The part of the story that hasn't changed is that a lot of damn good men lost their lives that day - and that's something I will always honor and never forget.
ClearedHot
05-14-16, 14:30
I know Marcus personally and I know a ST10 guy who was part of the recovery op. Also got to know Mike Murphy through mutual friends when I was over in Hawaii.
I've heard the story told firsthand and can honestly say that it has most definitely "grown" over the years. Between the fog of war, head shed reporting, celebrity, money and just military guys in general, I always look at everything through that lens.
The part of the story that hasn't changed is that a lot of damn good men lost their lives that day - and that's something I will always honor and never forget.
So has any of your team guy friends ever told you the story about the time Mike Murphy shot another SEAL inside of a CQB shoot house and was given a pass, allowing him to remain in the teams? Shooting a teammate is usually a career ender, but not for him for some reason.
There are some in the SEAL community that also knew Mike Murphy personally, and felt he was incompetent both as an officer and as a SEAL. The Navy decided to inflate numbers and throw medals around for the failure of Red Wings instead of making it a teachable moment for NSW.
The part of the story that hasn't changed is that a lot of damn good men lost their lives that day - and that's something I will always honor and never forget.
I highly respect their service, their dedication, and their sacrifices. If something damning ever surfaces because of hubris or worse, that would be an extreme disservice to frogmen past and present, and all other service members past and present. I really hope that is not the case.
R.I.P. to all my brothers in arms who gave all.
So has any of your team guy friends ever told you the story about the time Mike Murphy shot another SEAL inside of a CQB shoot house and was given a pass, allowing him to remain in the teams? Shooting a teammate is usually a career ender, but not for him for some reason.
There are some in the SEAL community that also knew Mike Murphy personally, and felt he was incompetent both as an officer and as a SEAL. The Navy decided to inflate numbers and throw medals around for the failure of Red Wings instead of making it a teachable moment for NSW.
Where did my post come across as defending or promoting any of the parties involved? Quite the opposite, really. Again, I look at a lot of what happened with a heavy lens. Either way, lives were lost and that's what I choose to focus on - because that much we do know for sure. Could it and should have it been a teachable moment as you suggested? Most definitely.
Moose-Knuckle
05-15-16, 02:12
Lets also not forget, here in TX where both of these gentleman are from we have what are known as "Windy Texans" who are fond of "telling tall tales". This all began with Western lore and dime store novels.
Man, as someone who loved both the book and movie, you guys are really shitting in my Cheerios. :-(
Man, as someone who loved both the book and movie, you guys are really shitting in my Cheerios. :-(
It's only because we love you, man
ramairthree
05-16-16, 17:05
Have you ever talked with a buddy long after a TIC together?
Even an official AAR shortly after will have some differing opinions and impressions.
But months,
Let alone years later.
Holy shit, your right,
It was him on backside with me and you were with ...
Oh yeah,
I was in the court yard in front of the building next to it,
And ran over to the door you came out of,
Not kneeling there to start with..
He was not there?
Oh, you're right,
That was the other obj....
How do you not remember that,
Shit sorry,
That was like a week after you got shot and went home...
Anyways,
There are bull shitters and aggrandizement out there.
There are straight up serious lies.
One guy thinks his kid has seen a ton of shit in the 82nd,
And has had to transition to his M9 dozens of times and killed several people with it.
How many people do you know in ANY unit that have ever had to transition to their sidearm?
I know a lot of people and was in for a lot of time,
I can count them on one hand. And they did not have to do it dozens of times.
And in situations that ended being med home early.
Anyways,
Getting sidetracked.
The point is,
There is valid and unintentional shift in memory about things.
There is stuff people rember wrong.
And there is straight up intentional bullshit.
I have not decided in this case.
Krisjon- Thanks for some of the points you have made along with the reasoning behind them.
Have you ever talked with a buddy long after a TIC together...There are bull shitters and aggrandizement out there.
There are straight up serious lies....There is valid and unintentional shift in memory about things. There is stuff people rember wrong. And there is straight up intentional bullshit.
I have not decided in this case.
A couple of thoughts. First, all of Luttrell's stories follow the same pattern in that they all heighten his importance in the events. Take for example the vote to kill the villagers. Luttrell wrote that Murphy deferred his command to Marcus; it was now Marcus to decide the fate of the villagers and mission. Marcus was now in command of that decision according to his telling of events. Then, there was the elevation of OPFOR numbers, the numbers that he claimed to have killed, and the 7 miles that he reports to have crawled - all heightening his sense of importance.
Second, Luttrell's lies are not limited to combat where injury or the fog of war might have affected his memory. That story about Chris Kyle killing two would-be muggers actually came to light in Luttrell's book. It was Marcus who gave a vivid description of how Kyle killed the two men with his 1911 and then used his Pentagon contacts to whitewash the incident. Now, one could argue that Marcus was just repeating Kyle's story, but that whopper defies logic.
There is absolutely no way to make two hoods "disappear". There are always Mamas, Baby mamas, cousins, etc asking questions and getting in front of a news camera
That story alone had way more incredulity than the Ventura tale. I could see Ventura overplaying his UDT card and getting mouthy and some kind of altercation occurring (altercation meaning anything from swapping cuss words to throwing hands).
But this isn't Men in Black and no Local, State, or Federal officer is going to just whistle nonchalantly looking thevother way as some Stone Cold Steve Austin looking dude claiming to be a Navy SEAL tucks a 2 grand 1911 in his waistband and hauls ass off into the sunset on a lifted Ford F150 to continue his adventures elsewhere after greasing two guys at a gas station
Nobody is that well connected and if they were, it wouldn't be in a book that everyone and God could buy at a Wal Mart.
At the time we, as the public, were looking for identifiable heroes and ultimately were left with two mortal and flawed people.
I respect that both these guys were SEALs and kicked some ass but, I don't see myself putting them on a pedestal at this point. Especially if Luttrell is in a position to further assist the person who is the only reason he is alive and is not doing so.
This is a sad but expected bit of news. I remember thinking when I read Lutrell's book it all didn't add up. But, for me, I believe the book and subsequent movies have done a lot of good for the military and veterans. I don't agree with putting two people or a unit of the military on a pedestal, but I feel they have encouraged a lot of positive reflection of the military in the general public.
I see and hear way more people talk highly and support veterans now than when I was younger. If it takes some tall tales and hollywood to encourage people to open their eyes to the sacrifices our men and women in the military have to make, then it's all good by me. Maybe some of their accomplishments were exaggerated, but I can tell you many many people were moved by American Sniper.
I believe it takes these types of stories to capture the short attention span of those who would otherwise be ignorant to what being a soldier truly means. I can't imagine what our troops coming back from Vietnam faced when a majority of people hated them for protecting our country and doing their jobs.
There is absolutely no way to make two hoods "disappear". There are always Mamas, Baby mamas, cousins, etc asking questions and getting in front of a news camera
That story alone had way more incredulity than the Ventura tale. I could see Ventura overplaying his UDT card and getting mouthy and some kind of altercation occurring (altercation meaning anything from swapping cuss words to throwing hands).
But this isn't Men in Black and no Local, State, or Federal officer is going to just whistle nonchalantly looking thevother way as some Stone Cold Steve Austin looking dude claiming to be a Navy SEAL tucks a 2 grand 1911 in his waistband and hauls ass off into the sunset on a lifted Ford F150 to continue his adventures elsewhere after greasing two guys at a gas station
Nobody is that well connected and if they were, it wouldn't be in a book that everyone and God could buy at a Wal Mart.
At the time we, as the public, were looking for identifiable heroes and ultimately were left with two mortal and flawed people.
I respect that both these guys were SEALs and kicked some ass but, I don't see myself putting them on a pedestal at this point. Especially if Luttrell is in a position to further assist the person who is the only reason he is alive and is not doing so.
Yeah, that is a pretty contradictory action. When I was growing I knew a small group of actual VN green berets and almost to a man the most painful part was abandoning "the yards" to the communists. They all felt like they had failed to keep a promise and that is probably one of the worst things you can do to somebody who values integrity.
BoringGuy45
05-17-16, 00:51
There is absolutely no way to make two hoods "disappear". There are always Mamas, Baby mamas, cousins, etc asking questions and getting in front of a news camera
That story alone had way more incredulity than the Ventura tale. I could see Ventura overplaying his UDT card and getting mouthy and some kind of altercation occurring (altercation meaning anything from swapping cuss words to throwing hands).
But this isn't Men in Black and no Local, State, or Federal officer is going to just whistle nonchalantly looking thevother way as some Stone Cold Steve Austin looking dude claiming to be a Navy SEAL tucks a 2 grand 1911 in his waistband and hauls ass off into the sunset on a lifted Ford F150 to continue his adventures elsewhere after greasing two guys at a gas station
Nobody is that well connected and if they were, it wouldn't be in a book that everyone and God could buy at a Wal Mart.
At the time we, as the public, were looking for identifiable heroes and ultimately were left with two mortal and flawed people.
I respect that both these guys were SEALs and kicked some ass but, I don't see myself putting them on a pedestal at this point. Especially if Luttrell is in a position to further assist the person who is the only reason he is alive and is not doing so.
It wouldn't be the first time I've heard such claims. There was a guy who used to come into our store regularly; he was a LRRP in Vietnam, and his war and post-war stories were all very obviously embellished. His best friend claimed that every word out of his mouth was the God honest unedited truth, but I'm not that gullible. Almost all his stories revolved around him delivering a verbal beatdown to various people he encountered and him making a death threat, which he insisted was never idle. And supposedly because of his reputation as a lethal killing machine, nobody, no criminals, not cops, not his boss, not even the sheriff himself dared cross him.
Everybody wants to be Rambo wrapped in Dirty Harry.
Interesting coincidence in the timing of this story.
http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/pentagon/2016/05/16/expert-questions-silver-stars-seals-jessica-lynch-rescue/84447868/
Moose-Knuckle
05-18-16, 03:12
Damn, this stuff just keeps coming out . . .
Army Investigating 'We Were Soldiers' Legend for Inflating Awards
According to Siddall, who obtained Plumley's service records, Plumley inflated his heroism in battle by wearing two Silver Stars and Bronze Star medals for valor in combat instead of wearing the single Silver Star he was awarded in Vietnam.
Plumley also exaggerated the number of Combat Infantry Badge awards he was authorized, Siddall maintains. The CIB is a sacred award only bestowed upon infantrymen for engaging in direct combat with the enemy.
In light of Siddall's research, officials at Fort Benning, Georgia, are investigating the allegations and are considering Siddall's request to have the information on Plumley's headstone corrected.
Siddall argues Plumley's records show that he served in 320th Glider Field Artillery Battalion as a scout. Plumley was Glider, meaning he was an 82nd Airborne Division gliderman, not an 82nd Airborne Division paratrooper, Siddall writes.
But Plumley never served in Korea during the Korean War, so he couldn't have participated in one of the two combat jumps of that conflict, according to Siddall's research.
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/05/17/army-investigating-we-were-soldiers-legend-for-inflating-award.html
Interesting coincidence in the timing of this story.
http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/pentagon/2016/05/16/expert-questions-silver-stars-seals-jessica-lynch-rescue/84447868/
There were also some questions about Lynch's fight before she was captured.
http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/jun/05/rachel-maddow/maddow-pentagon-made-story-jessica-lynchs-heroism/
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/apr/25/iraq.usa1
Boba Fett v2
05-18-16, 08:23
Damn, this stuff just keeps coming out . . .
Army Investigating 'We Were Soldiers' Legend for Inflating Awards
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/05/17/army-investigating-we-were-soldiers-legend-for-inflating-award.html
I honestly believe that's just a case of bad record keeping, which still goes on in the Army today. Back then we didn't have electronic means to update and validate our records, so I can only imagine how it must've been in the days when you had to maintain a paper trail. CSM Plumbley's legacy should remain in tact, and he should be left to rest in peace IMO. He was a no-shit war hero and did way more for God and country than many of these glorified SEALs ever did.
I honestly believe that's just a case of bad record keeping, which still goes on in the Army today. Back then we didn't have electronic means to update and validate our records, so I can only imagine how it must've been in the days when you had to maintain a paper trail. CSM Plumbley's legacy should remain in tact, and he should be left to rest in peace IMO. He was a no-shit war hero and did way more for God and country than many of these glorified SEALs ever did.
If it was bogus, it was bogus. If it was, it should be outed. If not, it should be cleared. Plumbley should have no different standard than any other soldier/sailor/airman/Marine.
Edited to add: if it was simply bad record-keeping, I hope it comes to light and he is exonerated.
Boba Fett v2
05-18-16, 09:07
If it was bogus, it was bogus. If it was, it should be outed. If not, it should be cleared. Plumbley should have no different standard than any other soldier/sailor/airman/Marine.
Edited to add: if it was simply bad record-keeping, I hope it comes to light and he is exonerated.
I totally agree. No one is beyond reproach. But in this case I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to Plumley until the investigation is complete. I hope it turns out favorably in this case, not only for him but his family. But if it turns out to be true then it'll be a permanent shit-stain on his legacy. He isn't around to defend himself, so I'm just not sure how I really feel about this whole thing. Perhaps it's more wishful thinking on my part, hoping that it isn't true.
I totally agree. No one is beyond reproach. But in this case I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to Plumley until the investigation is complete. I hope it turns out favorably in this case, not only for him but his family. But if it turns out to be true then it'll be a permanent shit-stain on his legacy. He isn't around to defend himself, so I'm just not sure how I really feel about this whole thing. Perhaps more wishful thinking on my part hoping that it isn't true.
For sure. Part of my issue with the drive-by media today vis-a-vis Stolen Valor and the like is there is so much assumption of guilt when things don't appear to be just quite right, and when they do turn out to be true, there is still an appearance of impropriety. Plumbley is a legend and was a god among men and I really hope he is vindicated.
I have a high suspicion that Basil Plumley's records are inaccurate from the Army side. He's dead, and I don't care four years after his death. Should have picked this fight with him when he was alive, 24rs ago when "We Were Soldiers Once ... and Young" first came out with his exploits. Would Hal Moore just have made that shit up, or do you think he just took CSM Plumley's word on it? That didn't seem to be his MO.
I have a very high suspicion that Gulab regrets helping Lutrell, and that he is acting out -- almost as a scorned lover. That being said, the Lone Survivor book, and movie, are embellished. Which is how literary license works. That's how war stories work, in general, too. Unless Lutrell is hiding cowardice on his part from the story, I don't care.
I honestly believe that's just a case of bad record keeping, which still goes on in the Army today. Back then we didn't have electronic means to update and validate our records, so I can only imagine how it must've been in the days when you had to maintain a paper trail.
That bad record keeping happens even with electronic record keeping. I have my own horror stories. But in the end I only have myself to blame for not keeping my own private records.
I had an awards and decs guy actually try to get my armed forces ribbon taken away because HE couldn't imagine how I could earn it. (I earned in a completely different unit years before)
That bad record keeping happens even with electronic record keeping. I have my own horror stories. But in the end I only have myself to blame for not keeping my own private records.
I had an awards and decs guy actually try to get my armed forces ribbon taken away because HE couldn't imagine how I could earn it. (I earned in a completely different unit years before)
Same boat. I ordered a CD of my record, it shows half of what I was awarded/given, maybe not even half. I kept records of everything so if it ever comes up I have them. Now that I am out I don't even know if I can "amend" my records to show what I have actually got, or if it even matters anymore.
Now that I am out I don't even know if I can "amend" my records to show what I have actually got, or if it even matters anymore.
It could matter later if you piss off some nothing, and your headstone says you were awarded X and it doesn't show it on DD214....
It's weak, but it could matter.
It could matter later if you piss off some nothing, and your headstone says you were awarded X and it doesn't show it on DD214....
It's weak, but it could matter.
What I am hearing is I shouldn't put my MoH on my headstone? Lol...I have nothing of any coolness factor, but I hear what you are saying. I also know how hard it is to amend any .mil record years after the fact, but I do have my paperwork if anyone challenges. The one thing that does bother me is my FMF warfare device, signed off by a USMCR authority, never made it over to the USNR side of the house, along with a Marine-awarded NAM, and a couple other lesser things. The Navy reserve S1 shop sucked.
Or worse, you show someone a uniform later in life, because they were asking.... and then they go to their E-4 buddies who "check you out".... find out your FMF warfare device is not rated on the record. That is essentially what this witch hunt appears to me in regards to CSM Plumley.
Or worse, you show someone a uniform later in life, because they were asking.... and then they go to their E-4 buddies who "check you out".... find out your FMF warfare device is not rated on the record. That is essentially what this witch hunt appears to me in regards to CSM Plumley.
Sure, that makes sense. Ah, hell, I don't know what I will do. I do take some solace knowing there are hundreds if not thousands of guys over the years in the same boat, unwittingly victimized by the military bureaucracy.
I do hate it for the Plumley family having to go through all of this now, playing defense in what should be an easy-to-fix problem.
I have a high suspicion that Basil Plumley's records are inaccurate from the Army side. He's dead, and I don't care four years after his death. Should have picked this fight with him when he was alive, 24rs ago when "We Were Soldiers Once ... and Young" first came out with his exploits. Would Hal Moore just have made that shit up, or do you think he just took CSM Plumley's word on it? That didn't seem to be his MO.
It seems that much of the contention surrounds his wartime service in Korea. Historically, people have said that he made at least 1 jump with the 187th in Korea but this investigator claims that he never deployed to combat there. This should be very easy to verify - was he ever with the 187th in Korea? If so, then we may find where the other CIB and Silver Star came from. Having said that, I looked at a couple of his pictures where he is in uniform and I do not see him wearing a Korean War ribbon...
According to the Marine Corp, my g-dad never went there, even though he had a photo in Korea, with his unit. He had quite the time proving it so he could get VA care too. Quite the time.
I don't believe this is a task at which any branch excels either. I just can't imagine that a stickler like Major General Hal Moore would have just had his writer write in whatever he thought he recalled of CSM Plumley's service awards. I also can't imagine that no one, in 24yrs prior, would know if CSM Plumley jumped Korea, or not, and whether or not he had gotten a 2nd Silver Star, or not.
At this point, I'm over the whole Luttrell/Kyle spiel. They and theirs have profited and the money's already in the bank. All I can do is just shrug and say whatever.
But people trying to "stolen valor" Basil Plumley is weak. Regardless of whatever administrative errors, clerical fudging, or "fact checking".....the grim reaper looked both ways before getting out of his big black car that day to take the man's soul.
Absolutely no way his thrice awarded CIB is up there with that one fat doofus who wore one in the mall on Black Friday to mooch 10% off.
So...whomever is cooking up that one can just go to hell. He led too quiet a personal life for him to be on some BS.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/06/08/veterans-still-fighting-for-va-benefits-recall-173-fire-that-erased-millions.html
Boba Fett v2
05-18-16, 15:27
I had a former Soldier (now an Army Captain) just recently reach out to me to see if i could provide him a copy of the Combat Action Badge orders we were awarded from our deployment in 2005. It was on his ERB and DD214 when he got out as an enlisted guy, but when trying to update his ORB it somehow fell off. Yet, the S1 isn't going to update his stuff because he's missing that official piece of paper. Yet, there are television documentaries out there (with him in it being interviewed no less) showing what type of combat action we saw over there. And on top of that he's got a Valor award to back it all up. Just goes to show that shit like this can happen to anyone, and there's no reason for me do doubt Plumley's service record or integrity.
According to the Marine Corp, my g-dad never went there, even though he had a photo in Korea, with his unit. He had quite the time proving it so he could get VA care too. Quite the time.
I don't believe this is a task at which any branch excels either. I just can't imagine that a stickler like Major General Hal Moore would have just had his writer write in whatever he thought he recalled of CSM Plumley's service awards. I also can't imagine that no one, in 24yrs prior, would know if CSM Plumley jumped Korea, or not, and whether or not he had gotten a 2nd Silver Star, or not.
I tend to agree. Nothing would satisfy me more than for a Plumley grandkid to produce a picture of grandpa standing on a stack of North Korean and Chinese bodies at Munson-ni. Until someone can come up with some definitive evidence that Plumley was CONUS on 3/23/51, then I will continue to rank him at #4 in my Top 10 American Badasses of the 20th Century (behind Audie Murphy, John Basilone, and Alvin York).
I tend to agree. Nothing would satisfy me more than for a Plumley grandkid to produce a picture of grandpa standing on a stack of North Korean and Chinese bodies at Munson-ni. Until someone can come up with some definitive evidence that Plumley was CONUS on 3/23/51, then I will continue to rank him at #4 in my Top 10 American Badasses of the 20th Century (behind Audie Murphy, John Basilone, and Alvin York).
I agree.
Plus, all service members and prior know how S Shops f*ck paperwork up and how bad the bureaucracies in the military are. Hell, my DD-214 is missing my weapon qualification badges because my unit never kept paperwork from qual ranges. So by these type of peoples standards, I cannot "technically" have my expert badge with rockers on my greens hanging in my closet.
Side note, We Were Soldiers is by far my favorite war movie of all time, and not just because I was in the 7th Cav.
I agree.
Plus, all service members and prior know how S Shops f*ck paperwork up and how bad the bureaucracies in the military are. Hell, my DD-214 is missing my weapon qualification badges because my unit never kept paperwork from qual ranges. So by these type of peoples standards, I cannot "technically" have my expert badge with rockers on my greens hanging in my closet.
Side note, We Were Soldiers is by far my favorite war movie of all time, and not just because I was in the 7th Cav.
The Navy S1 shop was notorious for not putting in stuff for our time with the Marines. My rifle/pistol quals were in that group of paperwork that didn't make the file but I have copies of the roster with the scores.
"We Were Soldiers" is a great movie, very much endorsed by Moore and Plumley as being fairly accurate (understanding there were some military and historical inaccuracies). The first time I saw it was as part of a Navy leadership seminar after I got my commission. The book was just as good.
I tend to agree. Nothing would satisfy me more than for a Plumley grandkid to produce a picture of grandpa standing on a stack of North Korean and Chinese bodies at Munson-ni. Until someone can come up with some definitive evidence that Plumley was CONUS on 3/23/51, then I will continue to rank him at #4 in my Top 10 American Badasses of the 20th Century (behind Audie Murphy, John Basilone, and Alvin York).
Nice list, but I might put Jack Lucas at #3.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacklyn_H._Lucas
So by these type of peoples standards, I cannot "technically" have my expert badge with rockers on my greens hanging in my closet.
Some busybody will risk their entire life to burn you down some day over it, and by then, your boys who shot it with you will long be gone, or anyone who knows you did it.
Pretty sad.
Some busybody will risk their entire life to burn you down some day over it, and by then, your boys who shot it with you will long be gone, or anyone who knows you did it.
Pretty sad.
Word.
I'm pretty sure Basil Plumley is in Heaven right now with his wife totally giving a shit and worried if some random nobody believes he was at Porkchop Hill or not.
NOT!!!
Same boat. I ordered a CD of my record, it shows half of what I was awarded/given, maybe not even half. I kept records of everything so if it ever comes up I have them. Now that I am out I don't even know if I can "amend" my records to show what I have actually got, or if it even matters anymore.
DD215
I agree.
Plus, all service members and prior know how S Shops f*ck paperwork up and how bad the bureaucracies in the military are. Hell, my DD-214 is missing my weapon qualification badges because my unit never kept paperwork from qual ranges. So by these type of peoples standards, I cannot "technically" have my expert badge with rockers on my greens hanging in my closet.
Side note, We Were Soldiers is by far my favorite war movie of all time, and not just because I was in the 7th Cav.
I actually had the S-1 NCOIC in my last unit outright refuse to do ERB updates for my Squad when I brought their qual cards over. They would only do it for guys going to the board.
It also took three trips to get them to put an APFT score on my BTLs ERB. They ****ed up the date and he was ineligible for the board because of it and had to wait two months to go.
S-1s Army wide are just full of worthless pukes.
Pretty sure if you read the entire story, the author indicates Army records showing him being CONUS during that time frame.
"When you look at his overseas assignments it speaks for itself," he wrote. "Look where Plumley was between 1951 through 26 February 1953, Ft. Campbell, Kentucky then he went to Germany," he wrote, adding that Plumley's service records show him serving in Korea in 1972-73.
I tend to agree. Nothing would satisfy me more than for a Plumley grandkid to produce a picture of grandpa standing on a stack of North Korean and Chinese bodies at Munson-ni. Until someone can come up with some definitive evidence that Plumley was CONUS on 3/23/51, then I will continue to rank him at #4 in my Top 10 American Badasses of the 20th Century (behind Audie Murphy, John Basilone, and Alvin York).
Pretty sure if you read the entire story, the author indicates Army records showing him being CONUS during that time frame.
"When you look at his overseas assignments it speaks for itself," he wrote. "Look where Plumley was between 1951 through 26 February 1953, Ft. Campbell, Kentucky then he went to Germany," he wrote, adding that Plumley's service records show him serving in Korea in 1972-73.
Missed that on my first pass through the article. Not looking good for the home team. Oh well.
Missed that on my first pass through the article. Not looking good for the home team. Oh well.
Did Plumley actually claim wartime service in Korea or did he simply say he served in Korea?
For me personally I don't care. For all I know he was shining some jackass on. It's pretty well established what he did, and honestly it's enough. He can claim to have invaded the Moon for all I care.
I'm not seeing him wearing a Korean War Service Medal ribbon so I can't imagine he seriously made that claim.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/CSM%28R%29_Basil_L._Plumley_at_West_Point_10_May_2010.JPG
Just checking wiki, I did find this for his CIBs.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/3xCIB_Recipients_list_p3of5.jpeg
It seems that many of these service inflation inquiries boil down to what did the service member claim vs. what did the service member allow others to claim on their behalf. In the case of CSM Plumely, it is unclear if he actually claimed to have fought in Korea. However, there were movies, Wiki pages, etc. claiming that he did while he was alive, and he was clearly aware of these inflated stories. Did he have an obligation to refute those stories? Did he contribute to those stores? Those are all pertinent questions.
As the story advances, it has become harder for me to believe that the extra Silver Star, CIB's, and valor device on his Bronze Star were clerical errors or administrative screw ups. However, I'm going to reserve final judgement until the Army can come up with an official statement.
It seems that many of these service inflation inquiries boil down to what did the service member claim vs. what did the service member allow others to claim on their behalf. In the case of CSM Plumely, it is unclear if he actually claimed to have fought in Korea. However, there were movies, Wiki pages, etc. claiming that he did while he was alive, and he was clearly aware of these inflated stories. Did he have an obligation to refute those stories? Did he contribute to those stores? Those are all pertinent questions.
As the story advances, it has become harder for me to believe that the extra Silver Star, CIB's, and valor device on his Bronze Star were clerical errors or administrative screw ups. However, I'm going to reserve final judgement until the Army can come up with an official statement.
It's entirely possible Plumley didn't appreciate how seriously the internet took these kinds of errors. He probably viewed the movie for what it was, a less than 100% accurate depiction of events and didn't feel it was his place to ask for corrections and a replacement movie. It's entirely possible he never saw a wiki page and probably viewed any newspaper articles with inaccuracies as nothing more important than newspaper articles.
To use an example, my grandfather was top turret gunner on a B-24 Liberator. When the local hometown newspaper did a story on him after the war, he suddenly became a "pilot."
http://i67.tinypic.com/illzjc.jpg
This was probably nothing more than the fact that he talked about the pilot and other members of his crew and somewhere between writing down what he said and going to press a few things got jumbled. Later on in the same article it mentions the time he fired on a Me-262 during their squadrons first encounter with an enemy jet plane. Obviously there is no way for a pilot of a B-24 to fire at anything but the contradiction didn't get caught by the editors and it was just one of a handful of errors.
And later on in life when the hometown newspaper wrote another article about him since he was still working in his 80s, the same newspaper reprinted the same photo and much of the same information from the article that had been written almost sixty years earlier. If my Grandfather had somehow been famous and had a wiki page, those errors certainly would have been sourced and my Grandfather would not have known the difference.
He never worried about it anyway, anyone who knew him or was important knew which position on the B-24 he was and new he wasn't a pilot. There were also some omissions on his DD 214, especially regarding campaigns, but it was an issue of lack of space more than anything. But today I cannot prove he participated in a few campaigns because it really isn't on his DD 214.
So records show he was stationed at Ft. Campbell from 1951 to 1953. The 187th, from Ft. Campbell, fought in Korea during that time. SgtMaj Plumley apparently claims to have fought with the 187th.
With all these latest accusations for Luttrell, Kyle and Plumley, I wouldn't be surprise if they say that Corporal York (at the time) didn't kill all those Germans with the 1911 and didn't capture those troops.
So records show he was stationed at Ft. Campbell from 1951 to 1953. The 187th, from Ft. Campbell, fought in Korea during that time. SgtMaj Plumley apparently claims to have fought with the 187th.
This link indicates he fought in Korea with the 187th and took part in Operation Tomahawk. http://army.togetherweserved.com/army/servlet/tws.webapp.WebApp?cmd=ShadowBoxProfile&type=Person&ID=221095 There is a list of other men who fought in the same operation and I would think Plumley's participation would be verifiable if they can find a living soul who served with him.
Other links indicate he was not one to discuss combat operations and he would hang up the telephone on anyone who contacted him for an interview.
I don't know which way the wind will blow when the research into Plumley's service record is complete, but military record keeping is not known for complete accuracy. Finding men who fought alongside Plumley in Korea will be difficult, because Korean War Veterans aren't getting any younger.
Getting the U.S. Military to straighten out a record SNAFU is about as easy as pushing a rope or herding kittens. Ask anyone who is battling with the VA, because of inaccurate record keeping.
It's entirely possible Plumley didn't appreciate how seriously the internet took these kinds of errors. He probably viewed the movie for what it was, a less than 100% accurate depiction of events and didn't feel it was his place to ask for corrections and a replacement movie. It's entirely possible he never saw a wiki page and probably viewed any newspaper articles with inaccuracies as nothing more important than newspaper articles.
To use an example, my grandfather was top turret gunner on a B-24 Liberator. When the local hometown newspaper did a story on him after the war, he suddenly became a "pilot."
http://i67.tinypic.com/illzjc.jpg
This was probably nothing more than the fact that he talked about the pilot and other members of his crew and somewhere between writing down what he said and going to press a few things got jumbled. Later on in the same article it mentions the time he fired on a Me-262 during their squadrons first encounter with an enemy jet plane. Obviously there is no way for a pilot of a B-24 to fire at anything but the contradiction didn't get caught by the editors and it was just one of a handful of errors.
And later on in life when the hometown newspaper wrote another article about him since he was still working in his 80s, the same newspaper reprinted the same photo and much of the same information from the article that had been written almost sixty years earlier. If my Grandfather had somehow been famous and had a wiki page, those errors certainly would have been sourced and my Grandfather would not have known the difference.
He never worried about it anyway, anyone who knew him or was important knew which position on the B-24 he was and new he wasn't a pilot. There were also some omissions on his DD 214, especially regarding campaigns, but it was an issue of lack of space more than anything. But today I cannot prove he participated in a few campaigns because it really isn't on his DD 214.
Yup. A version of the telephone game; "hearing" things differently every time it gets passed on. I was assigned to NSW. I was also assigned to Marine Reconnaissance. I was neither a SEAL nor a Recon Marine nor a SARC. But anyone who hears "assigned to..." interprets it as something else, and neither the public nor the media are military-savvy enough to know the difference. So then later it gets so far as to say "XXXX lied about their service...stolen valor! Stolen valor!!".
ramairthree
05-20-16, 09:44
If he was wearing a perfect attendance CIB,
He was fully ware it meant infantryman time in WWII, Korea, and VN.
I can't imagine he made it up.
Others have worn ranger tabs after ranger company time in VN, even if not officially warded it.
I know guys that were on A teams in VN that did go to the q course that were awarded SF tabs retroactively.
My unit did not deploy as a whole despite having portions continuously deployed for all of GWOT.
You basically went TDY to combat with orders.
Service stripe calculations are done first month counts as a whole month, last month counts as a whole month.
Not by adding up thirty days over and over.
A guy with 6 and a lot of short deployments may not have three years in combat, there are 36 months he was in combat.
There are errors on 214s.
I hope he is vindicated,
But will be sad to hear if there is true fire to this smoke.
BoringGuy45
05-21-16, 10:53
Yup. A version of the telephone game; "hearing" things differently every time it gets passed on. I was assigned to NSW. I was also assigned to Marine Reconnaissance. I was neither a SEAL nor a Recon Marine nor a SARC. But anyone who hears "assigned to..." interprets it as something else, and neither the public nor the media are military-savvy enough to know the difference. So then later it gets so far as to say "XXXX lied about their service...stolen valor! Stolen valor!!".
Yep. One of my wife's best friend's dad is in that boat (no pun intended). When I first met her (my wife's friend), she told me her dad was a former SEAL, and her fiance and brother confirmed this. However, when I first met him, I told him that I had heard he was a SEAL. He laughed and said that a lot of people think that, but the truth was that he went through BUD/S in the mid-80s but dropped out between 2nd and 3rd phase, then later became a SWCC. He said that he, obviously, worked with SEALs almost constantly, and that some of it was still classified, but that he was former SWCC and not a SEAL. People were constantly confusing that and he said he was always working to get rid of that rumor because he didn't want to get accused of stolen valor. I mentioned this to his daughter later, but she continued to insist that he was a SEAL, and he was required to deny ever being one to people outside of his family because being a member of the SEAL teams is classified (I decided not to argue why I know that isn't true)
Now, I have heard that some of the old school quiet professional-type SEALs will deny being SEALs, and even when presented with evidence, they'll insist that they only worked in a support roll and not as an active operator. So, I guess it is possible that he was a SEAL and is the quiet professional type, or is so sick of being asked about it that he just denies it. But with all the misinformation out there, it's hard to know for sure.
Yep. One of my wife's best friend's dad is in that boat (no pun intended). When I first met her (my wife's friend), she told me her dad was a former SEAL, and her fiance and brother confirmed this. However, when I first met him, I told him that I had heard he was a SEAL. He laughed and said that a lot of people think that, but the truth was that he went through BUD/S in the mid-80s but dropped out between 2nd and 3rd phase, then later became a SWCC. He said that he, obviously, worked with SEALs almost constantly, and that some of it was still classified, but that he was former SWCC and not a SEAL. People were constantly confusing that and he said he was always working to get rid of that rumor because he didn't want to get accused of stolen valor. I mentioned this to his daughter later, but she continued to insist that he was a SEAL, and he was required to deny ever being one to people outside of his family because being a member of the SEAL teams is classified (I decided not to argue why I know that isn't true)
Now, I have heard that some of the old school quiet professional-type SEALs will deny being SEALs, and even when presented with evidence, they'll insist that they only worked in a support roll and not as an active operator. So, I guess it is possible that he was a SEAL and is the quiet professional type, or is so sick of being asked about it that he just denies it. But with all the misinformation out there, it's hard to know for sure.
Seconding this. Attended funeral of an older gent 16 odd years ago. He was just a nice older man.
But when he was put away, it came out that he was a real, hardcore badass. Wings, CIB, tabs, all of it Like, for real.
And again, he was so well mannered and good humored. It was just a job to him.
The question is, did he actually deploy with them? We all know plenty of people who were stationed at bases that deployed soldiers, but didn't actually deploy. I think the best thing would be for the Army and this guy to meet and attempt to clarify the record (for good or bad).
It's also apparent to me, that the author has some kind of axe to grind, though I can't figure out why.
So records show he was stationed at Ft. Campbell from 1951 to 1953. The 187th, from Ft. Campbell, fought in Korea during that time. SgtMaj Plumley apparently claims to have fought with the 187th.
The question is, did he actually deploy with them? We all know plenty of people who were stationed at bases that deployed soldiers, but didn't actually deploy. I think the best thing would be for the Army and this guy to meet and attempt to clarify the record (for good or bad).
It's also apparent to me, that the author has some kind of axe to grind, though I can't figure out why.
That ship has sailed, SgtMaj Plumley passed October 10, 2012.
Maybe it's naivete but I just don't see Basil Plumley as faking the funk.
He didn't parade about or anything. And I don't see him getting on the rare and small list of 3 timers without some prior research aside from some random guy.
He had a long time for someone to "call him out". The discrepancies of Kyle/Luttrell have come out in less than a decade.
Plumley has been retired from the military and civil service since the early 90s when the book was written by Hal Moore. That's a quarter century of a lot of still surviving people who worked with him to have come forward if this were a real thing.
I'm thinking it's a records mess up mixed with someone hearing wrong and anecdotal info and trying to besmirch the memory of a dead man.
BoringGuy45
05-22-16, 01:22
The question is, did he actually deploy with them? We all know plenty of people who were stationed at bases that deployed soldiers, but didn't actually deploy. I think the best thing would be for the Army and this guy to meet and attempt to clarify the record (for good or bad).
It's also apparent to me, that the author has some kind of axe to grind, though I can't figure out why.
Ehh, it's the postmodern zeitgeist. This generation is obsessed, for some reason, with proving that everything and everyone that people have admired and aspired to be is complete and utter bullshit, and that everything we know is wrong. And of course, if you ask these people who then do they admire, they'll inevitably answer "Nobody. I hate everyone. The human race sucks," and then they'll go back to writing their Cracked or Buzzfeed article about how the 10 most admired people in U.S. history were worse than Hitler crossed with Attila the Hun.
I'm confident that among the liars, there are also heroes still. I still think Plumley is one of them.
Ehh, it's the postmodern zeitgeist. This generation is obsessed, for some reason, with proving that everything and everyone that people have admired and aspired to be is complete and utter bullshit, and that everything we know is wrong. And of course, if you ask these people who then do they admire, they'll inevitably answer "Nobody. I hate everyone. The human race sucks," and then they'll go back to writing their Cracked or Buzzfeed article about how the 10 most admired people in U.S. history were worse than Hitler crossed with Attila the Hun.
I'm confident that among the liars, there are also heroes still. I still think Plumley is one of them.
Yep. Right up there with...
We faked the moon landings.
Everyone in the 1950s was a mindless conformity cog.
We were no better than Nazi's in the 1940s.
And a long line of similar crap where people who discovered their parents weren't perfect and all knowing rejected everything about them wholesale and assumed the opposite values must always be more correct (known as counter culture because it sounded better).
Let them learn one troubling fact like the syphilis experiments the US military conducted on unknowing black soldiers in the 40s and they dismiss the entire military as racist and evil decades later. Of course if you bring up the Bonus Marchers they almost don't care at all for some reason.
Seems there is a certain type of person that after a couple years of college, or today a few months on the internet, suddenly considers themselves "enlightened" because they learned a few things and believe that means they now know everything about anything.
We've come a long way from people like Huineng who attained enlightenment through the simple act of cutting bamboo. If only he had taken a course in political science he could have understood true knowledge.
No kidding? I guess I thought it was clear when I meant the sit down should be between the Hater and the Army and not CSM Plumley who obviously didn't write the article about himself. If you read the story the author claims to have made some FOIA requests and has docs.
That ship has sailed, SgtMaj Plumley passed October 10, 2012.
No kidding? I guess I thought it was clear when I meant the sit down should be between the Hater and the Army and not CSM Plumley who obviously didn't write the article about himself. If you read the story the author claims to have made some FOIA requests and has docs.
Oh sorry, my misunderstanding.
Boba Fett v2
05-25-16, 18:58
http://taskandpurpose.com/navy-investigating-whether-chris-kyle-misrepresented-combat-awards/
Not sure what good this does now, he's dead.
Right now, it just an excuse to make everyone in NSW look bad. If he was alive, I'd say nail him to a cross if he lied about anything serious. But he's gone. He did some good stuff and probably did some bad stuff and it seems he exaggerated / fabricated more than a few things. But he died trying to help people.
Linebacker
05-25-16, 19:54
"Navy officials say they’re looking into the circumstances under which decorated Navy SEAL Chris Kyle was issued discharge papers containing more military valor awards than he apparently earned."
The discrepancy is appartently of the Navy's making, if not actually factual. At the very least, the waters are quite muddied.
I can easily forgive Chris Kyle of any and all Texas Tall Tale Bullshit if, and God please bless us with it, the Beachball story is true.
Because as mean spirited and kinda cruel as that may have been, that was hilarious. Especially if you read it in Stone Cold Steve Austin's voice.
I still get the giggles. And I recall sitting through American Sniper in theaters hoping they put that in and was upset when they didn't.
Seriously, easily forgive all the attention whoring and horseshittery if just that one story was true
I can easily forgive Chris Kyle of any and all Texas Tall Tale Bullshit if, and God please bless us with it, the Beachball story is true.
Because as mean spirited and kinda cruel as that may have been, that was hilarious. Especially if you read it in Stone Cold Steve Austin's voice.
I still get the giggles. And I recall sitting through American Sniper in theaters hoping they put that in and was upset when they didn't.
Seriously, easily forgive all the attention whoring and horseshittery if just that one story was true
I have no read the back, so please go on... lol
I have no read the back, so please go on... lol
He says that the guys nicknamed him "the Legend" when he was in Fallujah, around the time of the beach ball incident. Armed insurgents who couldn't swim were trying to cross a river, each of them holding a large beach ball. It was Kyle's job to make sure they didn't make it across. Instead of shooting the insurgents, he shot the beach balls and they drowned (the Marines put some of them out of their misery).
This was also around the time he made an extremely long shot (though not his longest) at approximately 1,600 yards (just under a mile), which he believes might have also contributed to his new nickname. Prior to "the Legend," Kyle had been called "Tex" by his fellow Navy SEALs. According to his memoir, the insurgents had their own nickname for him, al-Shaitan Ramadi—"the Devil of Ramadi."
The question is, did he actually deploy with them? We all know plenty of people who were stationed at bases that deployed soldiers, but didn't actually deploy. I think the best thing would be for the Army and this guy to meet and attempt to clarify the record (for good or bad).
It's also apparent to me, that the author has some kind of axe to grind, though I can't figure out why.
I agree. In the article the guy says he didnt go to Korea because he was station at Campbell. Id want some sort of proof that Plumley didnt deploy with the unit before he started running cock holster.
A year or so ago I made a records request from the VA for my service record, medals, and medical record.
When my medals showed up they sent me a bunch of medals I never earned including the Kuwait Liberation Medal. I would have gone to the Gulf War if they would have let an 8 year old go, but I definitely didn't earn it.
A year or so ago I made a records request from the VA for my service record, medals, and medical record.
When my medals showed up they sent me a bunch of medals I never earned including the Kuwait Liberation Medal. I would have gone to the Gulf War if they would have let an 8 year old go, but I definitely didn't earn it.
I sent a request for my fathers award record and medals and they included a CIB, yet he was a supply sergeant. HA! Nothing in his records had shown an MOS change, and having served from '81-'89 no records of service in Grenada or Panama.
When my medals showed up they sent me a bunch of medals I never earned including the Kuwait Liberation Medal. I would have gone to the Gulf War if they would have let an 8 year old go, but I definitely didn't earn it.Lol sure you didn't request the Middle East Variety Pack?
"Honey what's this gold lion pin?"
"Third Crusade CIB"
Lol sure you didn't request the Middle East Variety Pack?
"Honey what's this gold lion pin?"
"Third Crusade CIB"
Funny. The day they came in my wife started bragging about all of my medals and I had the tell her most of them aren't mine.
Well she married a standup guy. So much BS thrown around nowadays. Or maybe it has always been like this.
Defaultmp3
05-27-16, 23:18
http://taskandpurpose.com/navy-investigating-whether-chris-kyle-misrepresented-combat-awards/This came up on another forum. One of the forum SMEs replied with this:
You are entitled to your opinion, and I'm not here to change it. I'm here to set things straight.
I've been a Marine, a cop, and now a SEAL for nearly 24 years. I served with Kyle at SEAL Team THREE in the early 2000's. I was also his platoon Chief Petty Officer during the Sadr City sniper missions of 2008 where we killed over 167 enemy combantants in just over 3 weeks.
5 Bronze Stars. I know because I ****ing wrote one, and used the Navy's data for which award number it should be. I was also at his second Silver Star pinning.
How many medals someone has means jack shit. They hand out Bronze Stars to staff officers who never see the field, let alone combat. The military has no idea how to keep track of your records. I happen to be trying to fix mine now as I near retirement.
I'll finish up with this. Think what you want. It's your perogative. But stop talking about a man on this forum who you never ****ing knew and should just be grateful he existed.
This came up on another forum. One of the forum SMEs replied with this:
That works for me regarding Kyle.
This came up on another forum. One of the forum SMEs replied with this:
Calling it like it is. Hear, hear!
Moose-Knuckle
05-28-16, 03:19
Anyone see the latest dust-up between Kyle's widow and his brother over charity money going to Veterans?
Sorry if this isn't on topic but figured it fit considering the convo. Craig "Sawman" Sawyer posted this on his FB this evening.
Craig "Sawman" Sawyer
14 hrs ·
I wondered when this would finally hit the public. I know Jeff, Chris & Jeff's father and "Momma" Lee. Good people.
I'll hang back and let people sort this one out for themselves. Sooner or later, the truth always finds its way out.
http://freedomdaily.com/wth-chris-kyles-wife-trying-to-stop-his-family-from-helping-wounded-vets/
I wonder what Kyle's brother and family think of his widow using his name in car dealership adds . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=7&v=bYtg4399vhg
Wow, that is disgusting. What a horrible person.
Dist. Expert 26
05-30-16, 01:00
While I feel bad for Taya Kyle, using her dead husband's name to make a quick buck is utterly repulsive. She needs to move on, or at least out of the public eye, and start figuring out how to make it on her own.
I was unaware of the effort she's apparently put in to destroy his legacy, and if it's true I would like to see things brought to light by Glenn Beck or whomever so she'll never make another dime. I'm especially glad I bought the book when Chris was still alive.
While I feel bad for Taya Kyle, using her dead husband's name to make a quick buck is utterly repulsive. She needs to move on, or at least out of the public eye, and start figuring out how to make it on her own.
I was unaware of the effort she's apparently put in to destroy his legacy, and if it's true I would like to see things brought to light by Glenn Beck or whomever so she'll never make another dime. I'm especially glad I bought the book when Chris was still alive.
Every time I start to think like this I remember her husbands children depend on her.
Dist. Expert 26
05-30-16, 01:30
Every time I start to think like this I remember her husbands children depend on her.
I see where you're coming from, but tarnishing their father's legacy is, in my opinion, worse than struggling financially (which they almost certainly wouldn't be due to book and movie royalties alone).
I think her antics are primarily a childish desire to remain the center of attention, partially driven by greed, and possibly a way of getting back at Chris, although she is the only one who could answer that definitively.
Either way, I won't have anything to do with her or any organization she's affiliated with.
I see where you're coming from, but tarnishing their father's legacy is, in my opinion, worse than struggling financially (which they almost certainly wouldn't be due to book and movie royalties alone).
I think her antics are primarily a childish desire to remain the center of attention, partially driven by greed, and possibly a way of getting back at Chris, although she is the only one who could answer that definitively.
Either way, I won't have anything to do with her or any organization she's affiliated with.
I'm not saying you should do anything to support her or contribute. But at the same time, I'm not looking to torpedo the crap out of her because only the kids will suffer. It seems obvious she cares about herself first at this point, those kids are already in a lot of trouble.
But life has a funny way of fixing things. In 15 years or so those kids are going to be able to think for themselves and see people for what they really are. And when they realize Mom dishonored their dead war hero father for personal gain, it will cost her more than money.
Basically it's bad enough she's doing what she's doing, I wouldn't want to make a bad thing worse by creating additional controversy which the kids will suffer for. Best bet for all involved it to try and ignore her as much as possible and if anyone is truly a friend they should tell her to knock it off already.
Dist. Expert 26
05-30-16, 09:32
I'm not saying you should do anything to support her or contribute. But at the same time, I'm not looking to torpedo the crap out of her because only the kids will suffer. It seems obvious she cares about herself first at this point, those kids are already in a lot of trouble.
But life has a funny way of fixing things. In 15 years or so those kids are going to be able to think for themselves and see people for what they really are. And when they realize Mom dishonored their dead war hero father for personal gain, it will cost her more than money.
Basically it's bad enough she's doing what she's doing, I wouldn't want to make a bad thing worse by creating additional controversy which the kids will suffer for. Best bet for all involved it to try and ignore her as much as possible and if anyone is truly a friend they should tell her to knock it off already.
Fair points all around. Hopefully she'll fade from the limelight and the Kyle family can get their lives back together.
Are y'all talking about the car commercial? What is she doing that is egregious to the point of tarnishing her husband? Or that points to her kids being in trouble?
Genuinely asking here...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Are y'all talking about the car commercial? What is she doing that is egregious to the point of tarnishing her husband? Or that points to her kids being in trouble?
Genuinely asking here...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I was wondering the same thing.
According to the scuttlebutt, if she doesn't get a cut, no one is allowed to use Chris Kyle's name, or likeness. If she doesn't get a cut, or someone use his name, including his KIN, she threatens a lawsuit. Apparently, just before Chris Kyle was killed he was not living at home with her, because he was getting ready to divorce her.
True or not? Don't know. Just adding the scuttlebutt.
According to the scuttlebutt, if she doesn't get a cut, no one is allowed to use Chris Kyle's name, or likeness. If she doesn't get a cut, or someone use his name, including his KIN, she threatens a lawsuit. Apparently, just before Chris Kyle was killed he was not living at home with her, because he was getting ready to divorce her.
True or not? Don't know. Just adding the scuttlebutt.
That....really does make a lot of sense.
Not trying to be coarse but she just has that "look", y'know?
Like....maybe spending a year in Iraq at the height of the conflict would be a break from her.
According to the scuttlebutt, if she doesn't get a cut, no one is allowed to use Chris Kyle's name, or likeness. If she doesn't get a cut, or someone use his name, including his KIN, she threatens a lawsuit. Apparently, just before Chris Kyle was killed he was not living at home with her, because he was getting ready to divorce her.
True or not? Don't know. Just adding the scuttlebutt.
What I don't understand is how he lacked the foresight to get a will? Better yet, how does a SEAL gets deployed umpteen times without a will? EVERY time that I SRP'ed with the Army, I had to show a copy of my will. Literally, every...frick'en...time. Even on my last CONUS assignment to Ft. Benning's Martin Army Hospital, I had to go through CRC and get a will or show that I had one (BTW, the CRC immunization clinic has a higher acuity than Martin's emergency department, but I digress).
He may have been a great sniper, but he was one dumb sum' bitch when it comes to practical matters IF he was planning on divorcing his wife while marketing a NYT Best Seller worth millions without a will.
Dist. Expert 26
05-30-16, 21:12
If I had to venture a guess, I'd say he had a will that left everything to her. He wasn't exactly expecting to get murdered, so it very well may have been on his to do list. Who knows really.
If I had to venture a guess, I'd say he had a will that left everything to her. He wasn't exactly expecting to get murdered, so it very well may have been on his to do list. Who knows really.
One of my friends was going through the process of divorce right before deployment. Legal separation and all that (gotta love NC law), and the divorce would have been finalized about when we returned. He got tagged before he changed his will to his parents and she got everything.
Made me furious, but what can you do?
KalashniKEV
05-31-16, 08:36
One of my friends was going through the process of divorce right before deployment... He got tagged before he changed his will...
He didn't change it during SRP?
Maybe he thought he would reconcile, but we all signed a piece of paper that said "My will is GTG" before we got the plane.
Also, his chain of command should have politely inquired at least once mid tour if anything had changed in anyone's status and if they needed any services. Brigade legal actually likes visiting PBs and COPs. It gives them pics for Facebook.
Sucks.
Anyway, back to the topic. Kyle's widow obviously knew him pretty well, likely better than anyone else, and knew when he was full of it and when he wasn't. She was clearly in on it.
She's probably just sticking to the plan with a few modifications... which is, in a way, honoring him.
Dist. Expert 26
05-31-16, 09:25
He didn't change it during SRP?
Maybe he thought he would reconcile, but we all signed a piece of paper that said "My will is GTG" before we got the plane.
Also, his chain of command should have politely inquired at least once mid tour if anything had changed in anyone's status and if they needed any services. Brigade legal actually likes visiting PBs and COPs. It gives them pics for Facebook.
Sucks.
Anyway, back to the topic. Kyle's widow obviously knew him pretty well, likely better than anyone else, and knew when he was full of it and when he wasn't. She was clearly in on it.
She's probably just sticking to the plan with a few modifications... which is, in a way, honoring him.
I somehow doubt that destroying the company he founded and threatening to sue his family were any part of the plan. Sure, the guy made up some stuff in his book, but he wasn't a scumbag.
KalashniKEV
05-31-16, 11:01
I somehow doubt that destroying the company he founded and threatening to sue his family were any part of the plan. Sure, the guy made up some stuff in his book, but he wasn't a scumbag.
Those were "modifications." ;)
Obviously there are folks out there who have axes to grind, folks who are deuche bags and for low caught in the middle. IMO the DoD (and general government beurocrats) couldn't find their assholes with 2 hands, a map, a GPS and a proctologist on hand when it comes to "paperwork". I know it's a HUGE shock to most that some government paperwork isn't dead nuts accurate. When I hear stories of stolen valor cause some guy has more medals that someone else, I take them with a HUGE grain of salt. IMO there needs to be something more substantial than that to make me take folks seriously.
The whole Kyle and Lutrell thing just reeks of dog shit. When you throw millions of dollars of royalties and such into the mix things get all FUBAR jiffy quick. I just wish that members of the military were better taken care of by our society and political leadership so they wouldn't have to come out with books and such to make a living after having served. But then I like Unicors too.
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