View Full Version : Well I Just Saved About $6,000 In Five Minutes...Always Get A Second Opinion...
So in the last month, the bottom of my left heel has been killing me. At times it felt like I had a thumb tack in my shoe. Talked to a few people and was immediately told "Oh heel spurs probably...really bad."
So I looked it up and read some "bad stuff" the consensus being that as a result of having flat feet, being fat or a result of injury calcium builds up and forms a spur which irritates the plantar fascia which causes pain. Or in other words, according to many websites, you end up with a sharp pointy bone which stabs nerves and tendons. Sounds like exactly what I was experiencing. Really scary part, it gets worse unless corrected.
Having used my feet in all kinds of abusive ways it seemed like "heel spur" was a likely candidate for what I was experiencing.
Read a few other things about how stretches might relive the pain and that didn't make sense. Also read a lot about protective shoes that have an opening so the spur doesn't put pressure on anything and that sounded like a very unrealistic solution. The last resort is surgery where they partial detach the plantar fascia, which really made no sense to me or they actually go in and remove the spur itself which to me sounded like the only real solution.
I knew I was on my own with this one as my insurance deductible is pretty much the cost of any procedure known to man. So I found a affordable orthopedic surgeon who even offered a free consultation, etc. Took an x ray that looked something like this one.
http://www.eorthopod.com/sites/default/files/images/xray_foot_heelspur01.jpg
Yep, heel spur. It was right there on the x ray. Big pointed bone stabbing into nerves causing pain. So we discussed options which started with Endoscopic plantar fasciotomy where they detach or cut the plantar fascia ligament from the heel bone, relieving stress and pain and allowing new fascia tissue to develop in the space that was created. With this procedure, the tension that created plantar fasciitis or heel spurs is eliminated.
To me this didn't seem practical because wouldn't the new tissue simply be stabbed by the same heel spur?
So the discussion turned to removing the spur itself even with the risk of nerve tissue damage from the procedure. This was also the most expensive option. But I didn't want to wait for it to get worse.
Sounded like expensive, scary stuff and I was cataloging which firearms I might have to sell to come up with the necessary funds.
Then I decided to do a more detailed search staying away from website that offer procedures and found this.
http://heelspurs.com/index.html
Turns out the sharp bone stabbing my nerves is nothing of the sort. Heel spurs are soft, bendable deposits of calcium that are the result of tension and inflammation in the plantar fascia attachment to the heel.
What is actually causing my pain is tight calf muscles pulling the plantar fascia (also known as connective tissue) tight across the bottom of my foot like a bow string and causing pain at anchor points. It has absolutely nothing to do with the calcium deposit I saw on the x ray. The calcium deposit is actually more of a symptom than a cause.
So I put the balls of my feet on top of a 3" ledge and did a calf stretch for 5 minutes and magically the pain went away. Completely went away.
I then also realized in the last couple months I've been drilling the crap out of hook kicks with a new student and one of the side effects of sharp, fast, snappy, devastating hook kicks is the calf muscles tend to get a bit taught and I really neglected stretching them out like I should have.
But without having second guessed the Foot Doctor I could have been spending big money on risky procedures that I didn't need that wouldn't have resolved anything and might have actually created a few genuine problems.
I've probably got a few months of a dedicated stretching regime ahead of me before I completely eliminate the problem. I can do that for free.
Thankfully I didn't have to pay for the consultation, the X ray evidence or the scary prognosis. Turns out the bullshit was free. I knew there was something wrong when he wanted to attempt the first procedure to see if that would solve the problem and then if there was any pain (which I'm sure is what happens in 90% of the cases) we could move onto the actual removal of the spur. I wonder how many people have paid for both procedures, he did seem to have a pretty nice office.
So anyway, if your feet hurt. If you have serious shooting pains in your heels, instep or balls of your feet, before you spend money on a procedure or even go for a free consultation, do a simple calf stretch and see if it disappears. If that worked, my fee is $10 and you can paypal me directly for services rendered.
:sarcastic:
Seriously, middle age pains can be scary stuff. Be careful out there, critical thinking is free. Second opinions are worth it if you get to that point.
I think I'll go back and offer the good doctor martial arts instruction in exchange for non invasive treatment. I have some hook kicks I want to work on.
No, the doctor was right. Get a surgery you can't afford, and because I'm such a good guy I'll buy all your cool toys for pennies on the dollar to "help" out a fellow M4C'er.
Outlander Systems
05-14-16, 07:54
If the only tool you have is a scalpel...
"Heel spurs" is one of several myths, misconceptions, and areas of ignorance that permeate medicine among doctors, even among specialists. Certainly not the most glaring example either.
I was pretty sure how SteyrAUG's post was going to go the moment I saw the X-ray he posted.
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"Heel spurs" is one of several myths, misconceptions, and areas of ignorance that permeate medicine among doctors, even among specialists. Certainly not the most glaring example either.
I was pretty sure how SteyrAUG's post was going to go the moment I saw the X-ray he posted.
.
Another huge area of ignorance among medical professionals is headache related to CSF leak, but that's an entirely different thread.
Another huge area of ignorance among medical professionals is headache related to CSF leak, but that's an entirely different thread.
"Spinal headache" as a consequence of CSF leak after lumbar puncture is well-recognized and fairly common. Where does the "ignorance" come into play here?
"Spinal headache" as a consequence of CSF leak after lumbar puncture is well-recognized and fairly common. Where does the "ignorance" come into play here?
Undiagnosed/spontaneous CSF leaks of unknown origin. Only one hospital in the country has neuroradiologists that diagnose and treat. I can take this to PM, but we see patients who say that docs send them to shrinks because their headaches are not of physiological origin, headaches and neuro symptoms have have gone on for sometimes decades. See Linda Gray, MD at Duke.
Ah. No disagreement, although the incidence of heel spurs is about 15%, and heel pain like SteyrAUG's represents about 30% of all heel-related sports injuries. I am less dismayed by delayed or mis-diagnosis of spontaneous CSF leak with an incidence of about 1 in 50,000 than I am about ignorance of how to treat something as extraordinarily common as heel pain, or interpret the significance of an X-ray like the one he presented.
Ah. No disagreement, although the incidence of heel spurs is about 15%, and heel pain like SteyrAUG's represents about 30% of all heel-related sports injuries. I am less dismayed by delayed or mis-diagnosis of spontaneous CSF leak with an incidence of about 1 in 50,000 than I am about ignorance of how to treat something as extraordinarily common as heel pain, or interpret the significance of an X-ray like the one he presented.
Truth. I just happen to work with that other population at Duke (Nurse Coordinator for the practice), so get to hear about the anomalies and whatnot.
"Heel spurs" is one of several myths, misconceptions, and areas of ignorance that permeate medicine among doctors, even among specialists. Certainly not the most glaring example either.
I was pretty sure how SteyrAUG's post was going to go the moment I saw the X-ray he posted.
.
What's worse, the doctor really didn't actually lie so much as he failed to correct my obvious misconceptions. He used lots of phrasing like "we could do that procedure and hope we get a good outcome." I have a feeling he is using "the customer is always right" approach to diagnosis and treatment.
Also for the record, that is not my x ray, but it's something I pulled off the internet that demonstrates something close to what I saw in my x ray. My x ray was retained by the doctor in his office because technically he paid for it.
I have a feeling he is using "the customer is always right" approach to diagnosis and treatment.
The customer is always right. Even in the doctor/patient relationship. It didn't used to be that way, but Marcus Welby is dead now.
The tricky part is that the doctor has to know enough to be able to explain the pros and cons well so that the patient can make a good decision. Sounds like the guy you saw wasn't quite clear on the modern, evidence-based diagnosis and treatment of heel pain.
Steyr, hopefully Eurodriver will read your post. It might cure him.
The customer is always right. Even in the doctor/patient relationship. It didn't used to be that way, but Marcus Welby is dead now.
The tricky part is that the doctor has to know enough to be able to explain the pros and cons well so that the patient can make a good decision. Sounds like the guy you saw wasn't quite clear on the modern, evidence-based diagnosis and treatment of heel pain.
I think it's more of a case of him being willing to sell me any procedure I wanted. If I was positive I had an alien implanted tracking chip in my foot, I'm sure he'd be willing to do a procedure to check.
Down here we have everything from honest doctors running an affordable practice to glorified cosmeticians calling themselves doctors who are willing to pump you ass full of "fix a flat" and call it a butt implant.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/transgender-woman-arrested-injecting-fix-a-flat-patient-rear-article-1.980273
I think it's more of a case of him being willing to sell me any procedure I wanted. If I was positive I had an alien implanted tracking chip in my foot, I'm sure he'd be willing to do a procedure to check.
Yeah. I've never met any of those guys, but I hear they're out there.
Its not worth mooring over again.
It happened. It's over.
I just advise people to get best care possible and hope Steyr feels better and more comfortable with his exercises.
Also for the record, that is not my x ray, but it's something I pulled off the internet that demonstrates something close to what I saw in my x ray.
No, if figured. But I recognized it as a heel spur (even without the helpful labeling). I don't know shit about bones, especially foot bones, but even an MIS/Foregut surgeon like me knows enough to know that the whole concept of "heel spurs" is pretty much an eye-roller.
FlyingHunter
05-14-16, 20:27
Glad things are moving the right direction for your heel pain.
A couple of other things to consider as you improve. As we age the length tension relationships change in muscles as we lose tissue elasticity, hydration at the cellular level, and other factors. In addition, as we age certain efficiencies in our joint alignment can be impacted negatively. The degree of calcaneous varus/valgus or how much your heel pitches inward/outward can also be a source of misalignment causing pain. I've had patients with long term heel pain who have already seen several other practitioners resolve with properly designed orthotics and stretching. Often forgotten is to stretch the hamstrings, which if tight, cause the pelvis to rotate posteriorly, which changes the weight bearing balance/distribution in the feet.
Ahh the hook kick, its been awhile for me. I used to teach TKD and Hapkido. Best wishes and feel free to pm me for specific questions.
Glad things are moving the right direction for your heel pain.
A couple of other things to consider as you improve. As we age the length tension relationships change in muscles as we lose tissue elasticity, hydration at the cellular level, and other factors. In addition, as we age certain efficiencies in our joint alignment can be impacted negatively. The degree of calcaneous varus/valgus or how much your heel pitches inward/outward can also be a source of misalignment causing pain. I've had patients with long term heel pain who have already seen several other practitioners resolve with properly designed orthotics and stretching. Often forgotten is to stretch the hamstrings, which if tight, cause the pelvis to rotate posteriorly, which changes the weight bearing balance/distribution in the feet.
Ahh the hook kick, its been awhile for me. I used to teach TKD and Hapkido. Best wishes and feel free to pm me for specific questions.
Now that I know what is what and what fixes it, I should be good to go.
So it's been a few years and thought I'd update.
After a few weeks of dedicated stretching, I didn't even think about heel pain any more, not even a little bit. In the last year I relocated back to Iowa and have a crew of "noobs" that I'm training so we are well into using hook kicks so I'm demonstrating them a LOT.
But I still remember that "thumbtack in my shoe" pain from almost three years ago so really doing the calf stretches regularly. For anyone in need, I simply find a two or three inch ledge, put my toes on it and let my heels sit on the ground two to three inches lower and basically just stand straight up.
Standing next to a hand hold of some kind helps with balance and I just lean forward gently for about 5 minutes, that's all it takes. People with tight calf muscles like runners or long distance walkers and climbers are going to be especially vulnerable to this kind of thing.
In some cases I'm sure there is genuine injury that needs to be corrected by surgery, but it seems that in most cases it's nothing more than tight calf muscles pulling tendons along sensitive area's that hurt like a MF'er. It quite a bit more than the pain of muscle sprain or the stuff that active types are used to simply "toughing it out until it goes away" and that was the scary part.
No matter how much "rest and relaxation" I did, it never went away, never felt the slightest improvement. I learned to walk on the balls of my feet for a week because if I put my heel down on the ground it was incredibly painful. And when something doesn't improve with time or rest, you really cozy up to the idea that you might need surgery.
The good news in my case is once I had a potential solution, I was able to make a determination with 5 minutes of corrective stretching that absolutely gave me a clear picture of the problem and the solution.
Glad to read the update. It is fantastic that you discovered the cause and solution your self. Very scary that the doctor would say let's try this or that without having a clear idea is downright scary.
SURGEON's CUT bro.
Count on "surgery" being the only option they come up with.
Somebody got to pay for Jr's tuition this semester.
I have pretty severe plantar fachitis (sp?) and my podiatrist recommended against surgery because it almost never works. Mobic helps me a lot, along with stretching and attention to footwear. I am sure that being fat and lazy is aggravating mine now, but you don't have that problem.
Andy
Doc Safari
03-06-19, 08:53
Steyr: About halfway through your first post I was ready for you to say it really was a thumbtack stuck in your shoe. :lol:
I once had a tooth that the top disintegrated because of a cavity that ate away around the rim. The first dentist I went to said I needed a root canal, a crown, and all sorts of other stuff that was going to cost over $2,000. I got a second opinion from another dentist who said that, yes, there was a cavity but it hadn't hit the nerve so no root canal was needed but he would put a crown on it. The price was less than half that $2,000.
It just goes to show: When in doubt, check it out.
sundance435
03-06-19, 16:18
Steyr: About halfway through your first post I was ready for you to say it really was a thumbtack stuck in your shoe. :lol:
I once had a tooth that the top disintegrated because of a cavity that ate away around the rim. The first dentist I went to said I needed a root canal, a crown, and all sorts of other stuff that was going to cost over $2,000. I got a second opinion from another dentist who said that, yes, there was a cavity but it hadn't hit the nerve so no root canal was needed but he would put a crown on it. The price was less than half that $2,000.
It just goes to show: When in doubt, check it out.
I've had the same experience with a dentist - said root canal, got a second opinion - one filling and 10+ years later, no problems.
SeriousStudent
03-06-19, 17:15
So it's been a few years and thought I'd update.
.....People with tight calf muscles like runners or long distance walkers and climbers are going to be especially vulnerable to this kind of thing.
.......
.
I did not see this thread when you posted it several years ago. Pretty much the same thing happened to me. Forty years ago I was a serious rock and ice climber, and had incredible pain. I was doing some winter ice climbing in Ouray, Colorado, and a fellow climber taught me that exact trick. It helped a ton.
Glad to hear you are still doing better and kicking ass, so to speak.
Glad to read the update. It is fantastic that you discovered the cause and solution your self. Very scary that the doctor would say let's try this or that without having a clear idea is downright scary.
These are the same FL doctors who 10 years ago were handing out Oxy like it was Ibuprofin and declaring it was a new "non addictive" wonder drug.
In FL the "consumer demand" for medical services, especially cosmetic shit, has created an environment where they will sell you just about anything you want. I always hated when my GP didn't have an answer and I was sent to a specialist because you really couldn't depend upon them to play detective.
I know people who were going to chiropractors for migraines even though the adjustments did almost nothing for them. The chiro's would emphatically state that their problems were the result of some spinal problem and they needed to relieve the pressure and they would insist their migraines would actually be far, far worse if not for their treatments.
I have pretty severe plantar fachitis (sp?) and my podiatrist recommended against surgery because it almost never works. Mobic helps me a lot, along with stretching and attention to footwear. I am sure that being fat and lazy is aggravating mine now, but you don't have that problem.
Andy
If you aren't doing it, do a daily 5 minute stretch (ideally once in the morning and once at the end of the day when you are done working) and you just might eliminate the problem completely.
I did not see this thread when you posted it several years ago. Pretty much the same thing happened to me. Forty years ago I was a serious rock and ice climber, and had incredible pain. I was doing some winter ice climbing in Ouray, Colorado, and a fellow climber taught me that exact trick. It helped a ton.
Glad to hear you are still doing better and kicking ass, so to speak.
That's why I bumped this. We have a forum full of active people, some of whom have been around for more than a few decades and this is pretty common. Most of us don't give warm ups and stretching the consideration they deserve because for 20 years we could devote a couple minutes and then get right to whatever activity we were into without consequence.
Time to bump this again.
So my wife had a slip and fall at work. Back and foot injury. Came back from the chiro and among the list of "problems to be fixed" was heel spurs. I asked her if it felt like she had a tack in her show. Then I put a piece of 2x4 on the ground and had her stand on it with the front of her feet and her heel on the ground. Only took 3 minutes to eliminate the pain. I left the 2x4 section by the front door so she can stretch a couple mins every time she goes in or out.
That will be $6,000 please.
Time to bump this again.
So my wife had a slip and fall at work. Back and foot injury. Came back from the chiro and among the list of "problems to be fixed" was heel spurs. I asked her if it felt like she had a tack in her show. Then I put a piece of 2x4 on the ground and had her stand on it with the front of her feet and her heel on the ground. Only took 3 minutes to eliminate the pain. I left the 2x4 section by the front door so she can stretch a couple mins every time she goes in or out.
That will be $6,000 please.
I get it about every other year with the end of this past summer being the most recent. Found this about a month ago and his cross over stretch is the most helpful I have found.
The braces to sleep in help also.
https://youtu.be/72p58Iy6u7M
I switched to zero drop/lift shoes last spring and it is the only thing to help my constant plantar and back pain. Blah, blah they don't look cool. Don't care. I'm pain free for the first time since leaving the Army in '06.
Just my experience.
Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
I switched to zero drop/lift shoes last spring and it is the only thing to help my constant plantar and back pain. Blah, blah they don't look cool. Don't care. I'm pain free for the first time since leaving the Army in '06.
Just my experience.
Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
Strongly suspect you have more than tight calf muscles going on and probably some injury is giving you "heel spur" pain in addition to everything else.
If you aren't already doing calf stretches, I'd recommend giving them a shot if you can doing without causing injury to anything else.
Ironically my wifes chiro of course had a treatment for heel spurs that involved regular "adjustments" which would help take pressure off the ligament....yada, yada, yada. I'm almost tempted to post a billboard near his office that says "Got HEEL SPURS...? Try this simple stretch FREE."
I thought this was going to be a GEICO commercial after reading the title. Glad you are going to be OK without surgery SAUG. As you get older stretching becomes more important. I too am finding this out the hard way.
Adrenaline_6
01-10-22, 07:25
I thought this was going to be a GEICO commercial after reading the title. Glad you are going to be OK without surgery SAUG. As you get older stretching becomes more important. I too am finding this out the hard way.
Truth. I need to start a strict stretching regimen myself. After my L4-L5 fusion back surgery, when that thing tightens up, it feels like I am stretching my hamstrings to the point of that pulling pain without stretching at all, just walking around or sitting down. I stretch it out, it goes away.
Truth. I need to start a strict stretching regimen myself. After my L4-L5 fusion back surgery, when that thing tightens up, it feels like I am stretching my hamstrings to the point of that pulling pain without stretching at all, just walking around or sitting down. I stretch it out, it goes away.
At 40, all men should begin attending yoga classes, if for no other reason than the get some stretching and look at the girls in yoga pants.
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