View Full Version : "no tip" experiment fails
Another socialist experiment fails. Tips are usually based on the quality of the service given.
Reuters: National restaurant chain Joe's Crab Shack has rolled back an experiment at select restaurants to eliminate tipping after customers and workers complained, an industry news report said.
Many of the 18 restaurants that took part in the program, started last year, said they have dropped out when contacted by Reuters on Thursday. Officials for the chain with 130 restaurants nationwide did not respond to requests for comment.
Bob Merritt, CEO of Houston-based parent company Ignite Restaurant Group, told investors this month that research indicated 60 percent of customers disliked the no-tipping policy, trade paper Nation's Restaurant News reported this week.
"The system has to change at some point, but our customers and staff spoke very loudly," Merritt was quoted as saying in a call with analysts. "A lot of them voted with their feet."
He said the no-tipping test has ended at 14 of the 18 restaurants where it was implemented. The test was seen as groundbreaking for a major national chain.
At the test locations, Joe's paid some workers a minimum of $12 an hour. The Houston-based company raised menu prices less than 20 percent to compensate for the higher labor costs.
The test, launched under a different CEO, came as a nascent movement has been launched to remove a more then century-old tradition of tipping in U.S. restaurants.
Critics say the tipping system allows restaurants to pay some staff a pittance and puts the burden of labor costs largely on customers as opposed to employers.
Cont:
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/60-percent-customers-disliked-groundbreaking-no-tip-trial-n573521
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-15-16, 08:52
What this means is that it will have to be mandated, just like most of the rest of the Progressive agenda.
Great ideas, that everyone supports, but then fail.
It's because with Progressives we have moved from NIMBY to ALAIDIM- As Long As It Doesn't Impact Me. As if you can just 'wish' that 'something' were different and it doesn't affect me- Progressives are down for it. That 'something' usually never fixes real problems, because that would bring real change- they do 'something' that is 'common-sense' but has no chance of actually solving the problem. The 'something' is all about the 'optics' and perception.
Gun Control- they don't own or use guns, so banning guns is someone elses problem.
Immigration- with their fancy degrees and private or suburban schools, the or their kids won't have to compete with imported labor
Income Inequality- all about taking from the rich, not raising the poor. Everyone always thinks that they aren't the rich, someone else is. The IRS oddly usually sees things the other way around.
You can go on and on about the Progressive agenda and every single item falls apart after peeling back one layer.
Free college tuition? That isn't the problem, it's the fact that their aren't jobs to support the inflated costs of college. You need to grow the economy that has good paying jobs from value added businesses while at the same time getting rid of all the things in college that add costs, but don't add to the education.
Free College tuition is the 'something' that sounds good, doesn't address the problem, passes the ALAIDIM test of being funded by someone else and doesn't force the college students to face their study major choice, the govt to look at the regulations that are stifling growth and innovation (outside of phone apps) and the Club Med mentality of college faculty.
Have they not learned the lessons from the 'livable minimum wage' that they just decimate the number of those jobs.
Here comes the National Minimum Income....
Here comes the National Minimum Income....
And here is what happens:
http://www.redstate.com/leon_h_wolf/2016/05/12/minimum-wage-robots-zero-wendys-hires-bunch/
Averageman
05-15-16, 09:57
Here is a good read for you:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/15/opinion/why-are-the-highly-educated-so-liberal.html
As a man of the left, he had mixed feelings about this development, since he thought the intelligentsia might be tempted to put its own interests ahead of the marginalized groups for whom it often claimed to speak.
And quite clearly they have. They may want to "Lift Up" the poor and down trodden, but please lets not muss up our personal carpet while doing so. It's quite easy to live in the comfortable and guarded, gated community and talk about the evils of Guns, but you're not likely to be confronted getting out of your car by someone wanting your shi+ in such a place either.
Last month, the Pew Research Center released a study showing that nearly a third of those who went to graduate or professional school have “down the line” liberal views on social, economic and environmental matters, whereas this is true for just one in 10 Americans generally.
And yet that 10% while wanting to keep their wealth and privileged are ever so emboldened to tell others how they really should be living, tipping, recycling, voting for Bernie or Hillary and on and on. They really know how we Neanderthals should be living.
Members of the old class turned to scientists, engineers, managers, human relations specialists, economists and other professionals for help. As these experts multiplied, they realized the extent of their collective power. They demanded fitting levels of pay and status and insisted on professional autonomy. A “new class” was born, neither owner nor worker.
Mmmmm Hmmmm. Lets all be equal, but by God I'm not giving up my shi+ to make you equal. I will just rest on my laurels in my Ivory Tower with some tenure and some cool stuff and lets equalize everyone by taking the rest from the Middle Class.
But Dr. Gouldner’s new-class theory should alert Democrats to a lurking danger. It is probably right that something like a culture of critical discourse can be found in the workplaces and households and in the publications read by Americans who have attended graduate or professional school. The challenge for the Democrats moving forward will be to develop appeals to voters that resonate not just with this important constituency, but also with other crucial groups in the Democratic coalition.
In other words how can we get the rabble to riot and again, not get our carpets dirty. Is this what caused the rise of the FSA?
I'm sure about half of this 10% have some foot in the door of academia, so there you go. No wonder I had an overwhelming urge to punch a few of my former Professor's straight in the Snot Box
"The system has to change at some point".
Why? Customers don't want it to, and employees don't either, so why do YOU want it to change?
"The system has to change at some point".
Why? Customers don't want it to, and employees don't either, so why do YOU want it to change?
One, "because I didn't create it and as such it must not be good because I am the greatest and my ideas are better," mindset.
Two, "all the better to control you." mindset.
Three, and most likely, "Lets do away with tipping and charge more for the food/service, so that we can increase profits by .001%."
Those would be my top three guesses.
Joe's paid some workers a minimum of $12 an hour. The Houston-based company raised menu prices less than 20 percent to compensate for the higher labor costs.
Well there is the first problem. Prices went up 20% and that is basically the old menu price plus a 20% tip. And if that isn't enough to get everyone $12 an hour then something is really wrong.
Will - This is a little off topic, but...... I may be unusual but I often go back to the kitchen when I've had something good and give a shout out to whoever fixed it. As an example, the other night my womenfolk (I'm outnumbered 3 to 1) cajoled me into going to Chili's. I had a steak on a bed of grilled asparagus and for my sides I had grilled asparagus and grilled asparagus. It was freaking awesome, not enough to remove my anti-Chili's bias, but enough to move me back to the kitchen for a meet and greet.
This is what I dislike about tipping - generally if the service sucks you don't tip well even if the food is great. And if the food sucks but the service is great you may tip for good service, but you don't come back. The grill monkeys rarely get rewarded and, unless it is a strip club, they are what bring you back.
So, what is pay for what we called a broiler chef at one of these places?
Guess they never heard of the old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
I routinely tip 20% if the service is good, if a wait staff person is really going the extra mile, I reflect that in the tip.
If they did a horrible job, they don't get 20%
If it is a horrible situation, I blame the management for hiring crappy employees and keeping them around.
I haven't eaten out in a while except for a lost weekend pizza delivery.
Like ....a while. I'm not missing much and have no desire to go except for maybe some hole in the wall Mexican joint where the employees are of dubious legality.
More government just screws it up for everybody.
Many waitresses I have known share tips with their cooks. My wife, who used to haul down over $150 a day in tips in the early 90's, would regularly give 30% of her tips to her cook. She'll tell you point blank that it was a game changer in how much she got in tips. That was at a basic truck stop diner. She took a huge pay cut to come work with me at our business back then.
Alaska is covered up in small corner espresso stands. They are all over the place. One of my employees works part time at one. Every time I stop to get a coffee you can see the tip jar JAMMED with $1 bills. I finally asked her how much she could make in tips. She says she averages about $1 per drink. She usually serves a hundred drinks a shift. She's making over $10 an hour just in tips... on top of her minimum wage (which in Alaska is 9.75).
With this knowledge in hand, I am really frugal with my tips. However, if you kick ass and provide good service I will gladly hand out 20%.
Will - This is a little off topic, but...... I may be unusual but I often go back to the kitchen when I've had something good and give a shout out to whoever fixed it. As an example, the other night my womenfolk (I'm outnumbered 3 to 1) cajoled me into going to Chili's. I had a steak on a bed of grilled asparagus and for my sides I had grilled asparagus and grilled asparagus. It was freaking awesome, not enough to remove my anti-Chili's bias, but enough to move me back to the kitchen for a meet and greet.
This is what I dislike about tipping - generally if the service sucks you don't tip well even if the food is great. And if the food sucks but the service is great you may tip for good service, but you don't come back. The grill monkeys rarely get rewarded and, unless it is a strip club, they are what bring you back.
So, what is pay for what we called a broiler chef at one of these places?
Anywhere from minimum wage to 2-3x that if they NEED you. I'd say $10/hr is average around here.
I will tip more at least 20%--sometimes more--for excellent service, good food, and a hazzle free experience. I don't eat out often so I can afford to be a big wheel and tip. About tipping, I got a hair cut recently. While in the chair I learned that the young lady was just out of "school" and I was one of her first customers. I left with a lop-sided, uneven haircut with a couple gaps and was indeed uglier than when I sat down in her electric chair. She thought that she had done well, and I gave her a big tip and a little hug, thanked her, and hauled ass. Why be a dick and crush a young person's self confidence? I gave the tip because I'm sure that she needed the money. I'm not sure, though, if she will succeed as a barber/beautician.
"puts the burden of labor costs largely on customers as opposed to employers". This burden of cost is always on the customer.
Three, and most likely, "Lets do away with tipping and charge more for the food/service, so that we can increase profits by .001%."
This would simply be ignorant of the part of the executive. If the same volume of customers are willing to pay 20%, then you charge 20% more. It seems to me this idea of nullifying tips is simply a Social Justice exercise for publicity and feels.
Eurodriver
05-16-16, 13:36
I left with a lop-sided, uneven haircut with a couple gaps and was indeed uglier than when I sat down in her electric chair. She thought that she had done well, and I gave her a big tip and a little hug, thanked her, and hauled ass. Why be a dick and crush a young person's self confidence? I gave the tip because I'm sure that she needed the money. I'm not sure, though, if she will succeed as a barber/beautician.
That says a lot about your character.
brickboy240
05-16-16, 15:18
The service was terrible at the Joe's near me. We went once and never went back. Most of my neighbors and friends say the same thing - food is ok but a tad pricey for "fast fried food" and the service is awful.
Well...what do you expect? No tipping means no real time feedback. Also it means no incentives for the staff to hustle. It was as if the DMV people ran a restaurant! LOL
No wonder they had to change...I noticed our location barely had any cars in the lot and even on weekend nights.
This 15 dollar an hour mandatory minimum will also wind up biting them in the ass.
Policies created by morons that have never run a small business are doomed to fail.
This would simply be ignorant of the part of the executive. If the same volume of customers are willing to pay 20%, then you charge 20% more. It seems to me this idea of nullifying tips is simply a Social Justice exercise for publicity and feels.
I wouldn't be surprised though if that was the case though. An executive in almost anything having any clue on the a company works on the ground level is rare unless they actually worked their way up or built the damn company, and even then.... Maybe I'm just not inclined to believe that the people running the company actually give a damn about their employees and would happily screw them for that extra dollar a day.
I wouldn't be surprised though if that was the case though. An executive in almost anything having any clue on the a company works on the ground level is rare unless they actually worked their way up or built the damn company, and even then.... Maybe I'm just not inclined to believe that the people running the company actually give a damn about their employees and would happily screw them for that extra dollar a day.
Hey now, that is the free market you are talking about!
Off the topic of tipping -
I live in a medium-sized town for our area, about 50,000, and we have had an influx of eating places opening up: Five Guys, Pie Five, Panda Express, Rib Crib, and Buffalo Wild Wings are the newest. This is in addition to our local pubs/delis, two great rib joints, 4 Mickey D's, 2 BK's, 2 Spangles (local chain), 2 fairly good steakhouses, a couple of chinese joints, a couple of Italian joints - Olive Garden is one, and Applebee's and a Chili's, several small mom and pop diners, the usual IHOP, Village Inn and Sirloin Stockade, three outstanding real deal Mexican Restaurants, plus two taco ticos, two Sonics, a KFC. Not including the sports bars.
I've been wondering if the folks that opened these new eateries kind of took a look around before opening the new ones. Because I like it. Nothing is crowded anyone, reservations, nope, not needed. Drive my cherry little 91 Mustang GT and park in the lots without worrying about door dings.
Does anyone do market studies anymore?
Aren't we one of the only countries that use the tip system for Food services?
Aren't we one of the only countries that use the tip system for Food services?
Yes - I think there was a detailed thread on that very subject here not too long ago. Tipping probably started as a post-depression phenomena.
Hmm. Joe's food quality is terrible. The crab and Maine lobster when I've eaten at Joe's were clearly freezer burned and decomposing. And it's not inexpensive. I'd rather find another restaurant with crab and lobster and pay a bit more for actual quality food.
Yes - I think there was a detailed thread on that very subject here not too long ago. Tipping probably started as a post-depression phenomena.
In France the tip was included, but it's still there, separate from the meal... at least in Paris.
Off the topic of tipping -
I live in a medium-sized town for our area, about 50,000, and we have had an influx of eating places opening up: Five Guys, Pie Five, Panda Express, Rib Crib, and Buffalo Wild Wings are the newest. This is in addition to our local pubs/delis, two great rib joints, 4 Mickey D's, 2 BK's, 2 Spangles (local chain), 2 fairly good steakhouses, a couple of chinese joints, a couple of Italian joints - Olive Garden is one, and Applebee's and a Chili's, several small mom and pop diners, the usual IHOP, Village Inn and Sirloin Stockade, three outstanding real deal Mexican Restaurants, plus two taco ticos, two Sonics, a KFC. Not including the sports bars.
I've been wondering if the folks that opened these new eateries kind of took a look around before opening the new ones. Because I like it. Nothing is crowded anyone, reservations, nope, not needed. Drive my cherry little 91 Mustang GT and park in the lots without worrying about door dings.
Does anyone do market studies anymore?
I regularly go to a "corner" deli where I live, no seating,takeout sandwiches & cold cuts type.......Its been there for 15 years. Good, clean service though.
This month ANOTHER cold cut deli opened up across the street, what was that guy thinking?????? I was in the old deli yesterday and asked the owner, "Wassup? Is that new guy busy?" Old owner replied, "Nope, we tried to tell him."
I will tip more at least 20%--sometimes more--for excellent service, good food, and a hazzle free experience. I don't eat out often so I can afford to be a big wheel and tip. About tipping, I got a hair cut recently. While in the chair I learned that the young lady was just out of "school" and I was one of her first customers. I left with a lop-sided, uneven haircut with a couple gaps and was indeed uglier than when I sat down in her electric chair. She thought that she had done well, and I gave her a big tip and a little hug, thanked her, and hauled ass. Why be a dick and crush a young person's self confidence? I gave the tip because I'm sure that she needed the money. I'm not sure, though, if she will succeed as a barber/beautician.
I don't agree with this. But it would be my head and my haircut I would be walking around with. You don't plan on being her only customer if her skills don't improve, correct?
A good tip and a snowflake hug will cause her to NOT improve and continue to give customers, including you, bad haircuts.
Either she will learn to cut hair correctly on someone's head other than mine or she will eventually have no customers that request her and finally get the hint to find another profession.
I get that you have sympathy for her and want to encourage her, .......save that for YOUR kids. Let her "practice" on your head for free or off duty to improve her skills if ya wanna help.
Your method is what is creating all these special snowflakes around us. Life is tough......it will be a lot tougher the longer reality is delayed. Sorta a barbershop Darwinism.
Dick-wise personally,.....I wouldn't berate the young lady, but I certainly wouldn't go back to her either. It isn't my place to teach her life's lessons or how to correctly cut hair.
I don't tip ugly, fat strippers because they're newbies either.....On the other hand, I don't tell them to their face they are ugly and fat.....I just move along to another stripper who I think is pretty and make it rain on them.
In France the tip was included, but it's still there, separate from the meal... at least in Paris.
Tipping in America *
From what I understand tipping is considered an insult in some European countries as it is believed to impart class separation.
Eurodriver
05-17-16, 09:34
From what I understand tipping is considered an insult in some European countries as it is believed to impart class separation.
Tipping is a no-no in Japan for this reason as well.
Because some places, not America, place value in doing their job well as a fundamental aspect of being a decent human being. Here, they expect to be paid more for it :rolleyes:
Tipping is a no-no in Japan for this reason as well.
Because some places, not America, place value in doing their job well as a fundamental aspect of being a decent human being. Here, they expect to be paid more for it :rolleyes:
That's what happens with capitalism.
In my job now, I do a good job, and have gotten paid for it. Bonuses (a tip almost), raises, promotions. By bonus, I mean in addition to the ones everyone else got.
If I do a good job and don't get paid more for it, I'll find an employer who will compensate me as I see fit, and they will be rewarded with my services, it's a win win.
I tip well, and when I go back, I get great service every time. Then again, I stick to the same couple of restaurants.
Tipping is a no-no in Japan for this reason as well.
Because some places, not America, place value in doing their job well as a fundamental aspect of being a decent human being. Here, they expect to be paid more for it :rolleyes:
Let us put this in context, are servers in Japan paid less than other workers? I don't know, I've never been there.
Let us put this in context, are servers in Japan paid less than other workers? I don't know, I've never been there.
Sort of. It's work but not super high paying obviously. Some people just get two jobs, but I would say they get paid moderately better than servers here.
However aside from small Udon or Ramen joints; eating out in Japan can be pricey.
Also if someone laughs at you if offered a gratuity, it is because they are embarrassed or uncomfortable. Seriously, don't be that guy who tries to tip. Not saying YOU would but as a generality.
People in more metropolitan areas are hired as servers because they have usually taken English classes. Keep your English simple and idiom, metaphor, and colloquialism free and you'll have zero problems.
Again, eating out in Japan is not cheap.
But they have Anna Millers and so on and while pricey, worth it just to say you did it.
It's like hooters but in weird maid outfits.
Also AVOID SASHIMI. Seriously, anything I ate was cooked or absolutely not fish.
This was like based on four days but yeah...it's different. Also, a good reminder of how spoiled people are here.
ETA Mickey D's however is universal.
Same cost as US give or take a buck and yeah.....
I was 'that' guy. In out got my gutbuster good to go 10 4
NPR interviewed the CEO of Crab shack. He commented the problem with their experiment was that the wait staff walked off the job knowing that more money could be made working somewhere else. He essentially stated for the "no tipping" idea to work in his business; the added cost to a meal would be like %40. His reasoning was that the additional money was needed to cover the front and rear of the house. To make sure the hostesses and other front line employees whom generally never received tips.
I personally believe that a tip is earned for good service. If you want more money in your job, then learn a trade or get an education. That said, I will generally tip 15-20% for good service.
NPR interviewed the CEO of Crab shack. He commented the problem with their experiment was that the wait staff walked off the job knowing that more money could be made working somewhere else. He essentially stated for the "no tipping" idea to work in his business; the added cost to a meal would be like %40. His reasoning was that the additional money was needed to cover the front and rear of the house. To make sure the hostesses and other front line employees whom generally never received tips.
I personally believe that a tip is earned for good service. If you want more money in your job, then learn a trade or get an education. That said, I will generally tip 15-20% for good service.
Take responsibility for your own income and destiny? Madness!
If you want more money in your job, then learn a trade or get an education.
You micro aggressive racist pig.
I remember being in Texas during a Business Organization convention in Highschool. As a group, we all went out to a restaurant and divided up into groups of four to a table.
After a night of overly poor service, lack of attention, rushing us on the order, etc. It's not like we were a rammy bunch, or caused problems. We were all in business casual, ready to eat, and be on our way. It was around mid-day, so it wasn't busy, our group was a total of 12. Each table for our group had a different server.
At the end of the service, I left out a couple dollars, and a fellow peer proceeded to berate me for not leaving a flat 15-20% of my total bill.
As I just shook my head in disapproval of the discussion, in the restaurant, as soon as we were out the door it became a heated issue for this individual. They insisted that because of the lowered minimum wage that it was a moral/ethical requirement to tip the flat amount to give those people more than minimum wage.
I think the real issue was, at 17 years old, I had already been working multiple years in customer service. Making 7.00-7.15 an hour, working at a gas station, where I dealt with some of the nicest people and some scum of the earth. I also had a horn dog of a father who insisted on dating women nearly half his age. I knew what a good day and good service could bring in a good waitress. Minimum wage or not.
After enough verbal punishment from this person, who had never worked a day in their life, I finally asked: "Did I treat them any less for the way they treated US like less? Would I be written up at my job for treating a customer like an inconvenience?" After that, he quieted down. We came from two different worlds. I will admit, I am frugal. But if even mediocre service is provided, they're getting a 10-15% tip. Great service gets 20+% depending on the level of "Above and beyond" and poor service can be as little as a buck or two. Especially in the inconvenience factor. I have had customer service and basic common decency/politeness drilled into me for as long as I can remember. Never have I treated a customer as an inconvenience, if I ever did, that would be the day I know I have to change careers/fields. I wouldn't have a job without the customer. Even if they're mad, if I stay calm and collected, generally the customer will come back to that (there will always be the 1+% of unsatisfied individuals, regardless of what is done).
In the long run, I like the tips idea. It's American Competition at it's core. It's a system that doesn't always work, but for the most part, high-performers will get paid more for their level of service.
brickboy240
05-18-16, 11:51
Wait...so they admit that Crab Shack employees left for higher paying jobs and their sales were down because people decided to go elsewhere to eat?
(psst...there is that "invisible hand" of the free market that Bernie is telling you all does not exist or that it is evil)
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-18-16, 13:45
And to add to the debate, do you tip on the whole amount including tax, or just on food or do you offset for expensive liquor...
Whole amount pre-tax, liquor included. If you had a sommelier, they are paid out of the wait staff's tips but definitely should be considered in the process. If you had an outstanding waiter/waitress and an outstanding sommelier, 25% is not unusual.
And to add to the debate, do you tip on the whole amount including tax, or just on food or do you offset for expensive liquor...
I will not tip on tax, and I will not tip someone 25%-25% to bring me a $100 bottle of wine that is already marked up 6 or more time its retail price.
And to add to the debate, do you tip on the whole amount including tax, or just on food or do you offset for expensive liquor...
The total bill. I'm not going to sit there and figure all that out to save a few $. Didn't even know that was an option honestly.
The total bill. I'm not going to sit there and figure all that out to save a few $. Didn't even know that was an option honestly.
What is there to figure out? Your pretax total should be on your bill.
This whole thread in a nutshell
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/4871220/mr-pink-plays-the-fiddle-o.gif
I keed, I keed
not really
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-18-16, 21:26
The total bill. I'm not going to sit there and figure all that out to save a few $. Didn't even know that was an option honestly.
Couple of thousand posts on Reddit IIRC.
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