View Full Version : SA Pistols you have been the most disappointed with
ramairthree
05-18-16, 13:05
I did a recent post about nice surprises in guns you tried.
Now I am doing the opposite.
I have a level of comfort and like for the Beretta 92 series.
But when it comes to CC even the compact is fairly big.
There is no Sub Compact option.
The cougar L and mini Cougar are great sized. But not 92 magazine compatible and have this weird magwell/grip base not at all suitable for serious use and mag changes. Maybe that is fine for a CC SC. But the Mag non compatibility ruins it for me.
The 92 Compact grip cannot get any shorter. It used the same hammer strut and set up as the full sized/centurion frame. And the huge trigger guard eats a lot of potential grip.
But why they never made a shorter slide/barrel for the compact frame I cannot figure out.
Anyways,
I ended up with a pair of Beretta 9000s. One 40, one 9mm.
They are 92/96 magazine compatible, about Glock 26 sized, but wider.
i found a LNIB 40, and a used 9mm.
They are similar in size to a mini cougar. Cougars are full sized, a mid sized L, and a mini cougar. Like a Glock 26 without an extended base, the mini cougar I can't get my pinky on. The 9000 has enough grip that I can grip it.
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I have ever been more disappointed with a handgun than the Beretta 9000 series.
I have several issues with it:
ONE:
It is supposed to be 92 mag compatible,
But 92/96 mags run about 0.810" and 9000 mags run about 0.860 wide.
It is enough that these mags will not fit into the magwell of a 92/96 series gun.
I suspect this is why 92/96 mags, with or without a spacer do not run reliably in a 9000.
The 9000's I have don't run as reliably as a 92/96 or a Cougar with their regular mags.
But in a dozen tries each I cannot get one full sized 92 or 96 mag to run through them without a malfunction. And these mags run fine in every other non-9000 gun I put them in.
If a key feature of your product is 92 series magazine compatibility, why do you make it take a wider mag to start with, and have it not function with the compatible mags?
I have taken the mag release out of a Taurus 92, dremeled it to fit Beretta magazine notches, and it has run 100%. Think about that.
TWO:
The trigger is atrocious. And I don't think I can relay how bad it is in words alone. I have shot stock spring 92s for decades. I have tried horrible guns like the sigma. And I have never used a worse trigger. Ever. The DA has an unbelievable, extra long, mushy pull with a high break weight. The break weight of SA is not bad, but still a horrible, long feel of mush to get to it. More on this when I go over manual of arms.
THREE:
The controls are difficult to manipulate. And I have spent a fair amount of time putting extra work on them to break in. When you are hammer down on safe you cannot reliably put the gun on fire with your thumb. When you are cocked and locked you cannot reliably put the gun on fire with your thumb. When you load the gun, the slide is so small height wise it is hard to grab and rack. Then you can almost never decock with your thum and have to use your other hand.
FOUR:
The whole manual of arms with this gun. It is different than the 92 or Cougar series. Why? Especially when it is supposed to be 92 mag compatible would it have a different manual of arms than the 92. So it can have cocked and locked carry capability as a claim to fame? Most CC people choosing a subcompact cocked and locked carry gun are not looking for a plastic gun. People that choose cocked and locked typically choose a metal gun with the same manual of arms and design as a larger version. Such as a 1911. They are choosing it for the fantastic trigger and smooth functioning frame mounted safety.
FIVE:
Quality. This gun does not have it. Grip material the cracks and crumbles off. Unreliable function. Models that made it to market that go off when decocked.
As a another example of quality and market understanding, beretta made a polymer holster for this. It is a giant pancake holster. Something nobody choosing to carry a pistol of this size would want. And my example is too soft and not durable enough. It is cracking in places. I have super cheap Glock holsters and mag pouches that are 25 years old without these issues.
Why not just make a little polymer frame that took actual 92 magazines, not have the extra size, height and complexity of the frame mounted safety, and fit 92 series slides. And make a short 92 slide/barrel for it? This gun is wider than a 92. How on earth is that an acceptable design for a new sub compact?
1911s, CZs, etc. have been made with polymer frames.
Anyways,
For a couple of decades you can buy a full, compact, and subcompact sized Glock with mag compatibility and same manual of arms.
You can now add XL, comp, etc sizes to that.
Yet for the 92 series,
The is full sized, 99% full sized centurion, and compact. Which drops the same whopping half inch off the upper length as the centurion.
Anyways,
The 9000 is the worst most abject abortion I have laid hands on.
Maybe that's why they're such obscure guns.
I've never gotten along with a Glock 26. Just too chunky. Something that thick needs some length for me to carry comfirtably. I don't even like Glock 19s.
M&P.
I never bought one but had to carry one
On paper it looked great but I just hated it. Some people just love them but, I don't see it.
Doc Safari
05-18-16, 15:21
1. Star Firestar 9mm
Wouldn't feed anything but ball ammo, and hollowpoints with a short OAL would jam it so badly the magazine had to be pried out to clear it.
2. Seecamp .25
Okay, I know .25 sucks, but at the time the .32 had a waiting list of more than a year. This gun was a bitch to field strip. I broke the extractor trying to put it back together. My gunsmith replaced the extractor, reassembled it, and told me "I wouldn't take it apart anymore if I were you."
3. Bersa .380
Okay, I thought it might be a "decent" pistol. Firing loosened things up too much and interfered with field stripping. No more South American crap after that (I was already onto Taurus being junk).
4. Glock 42
My girlfriend got one of the early ones with issues. The gun literally stovepiped on every round regardless of ammo type. We sent it in to Glock and they repaired it for free. We haven't had time yet to try it out again, but my enthusiasm toward this variant is already toast.
5. Any 1911
Okay, I admit I've never spent more than a thousand bucks on one, but I can't fathom how this pistol has been the sine qua non of handguns for over 100 years when I can't get one that shoots anything but hardball reliably.
6. Walther PPK/S
Jam-o-matic. James Bond would not have survived all those novels and movies if he really had to rely on this piece of shit.
7. Colt Mustang
See 1911 above for reference.
8. Browning Hi Power
In all fairness, I have only ever shot one example, but my dad's Hi Power was such a jam-o-matic that I probably will never own one.
9. Ruger P-89
This gun was so clunky and top heavy that I kept imagining it was a brick launcher. Add to that the fact that you have to reach down into it to move the ejector out of the way to field strip it and the suck just amplifies.
10. Specifically: Kimber 1911
When Kimber was all the rage in the 1911 world I got one that had such a rough feed ramp I literally thought monkeys could have machined it better. Soured me on Kimber before it was cool to be soured on Kimber.
sevenhelmet
05-18-16, 15:43
Kind of oddball, but mine is the Ruger Mk-III. I've been shooting with two friends who each had one, and both times the pistol jammed so badly that it couldn't be made to function again without tools. Bad luck, maybe, but it soured the model for me. Coupled with the extended neck-beard hoarding of .22, I pretty much gave up on the idea of a .22 pistol.
I remember when the 9000 came out. I picked one up several times - trying to make myself like it, since I am such a Beretta 92 nut. But, I always hated the 9000.
I'll second the 1911 reference. I've owned and shot everything from RIA to Colt and haven't found one I'd trust my life to. It really seemed the cheaper they got, the more reliable they got to boot.
Old Romanian TT-33: Fun to shoot, loud and a great fireball, but it hammer bit worse than any gun I've ever shot and had that goofy almost vertical eastern bloc grip angle.
Colt...1906? I can't remember the model number at the moment. Little pocket pistol that shot 25 ACP. Wouldn't get through a single round without some sort of malfunction. New springs, tracked down an ejector, etc. Still completely unreliable.
Not a really bad experience but different - a Walther PK380 an ex girlfriend of mine had. Great shooting little gun, then about 300 rounds into its life it emptied a mag with a single pull of the trigger. Walther customer service was fantastic and turned it around in less than a week.
ramairthree
05-18-16, 16:59
Maybe that's why they're such obscure guns.
I've never gotten along with a Glock 26. Just too chunky. Something that thick needs some length for me to carry comfirtably. I don't even like Glock 19s.
I hated my 26 for almost a decade.
I bought it when they first came out.
100% reliable with the factory 10 round mags.
But I hated my pinky coming off the grip.
I bought the AWB era plus zero mag bases.
Grip problem solved.
But it went to like 98% reliable.
I bought the G19 mag adapter.
Those early versions had a lot of play and I hated it although it ran 100%.
With the sunset of the AWB I got factory plus 2 mags.
Ran 100%, better grip,
Bit still meh about it.
The Pearce plus 3s, which only add two for me run 100% and I like the grip.
I genuinely like the gun now.
The new SS 9mm is not enough of a drop in size for me to go to one,
I would rather have the mag compatibility.
For better or for worse,
My two favorite hand guns are Glock 19s and beretta 92s.
I prefer the gen two in the 19,
I wish they made the gen 2 grip with a rail because I would like an option to put a light on a Glock with that grip.
I prefer the older all metal 92gs with night sights.
You can retire them for night sights or take the tube out and out in an FO rod for a game gun.
I would love a 92 with the compact grip and a a 3.5 ish barrel upper.
I would love even more if they could put that 3.5ish upper on a new subcompact 92 frame that was 9000 ish sized.
If the cougar or PX4 series had been 92 mag compatible they might have gotten some love for me. And it would have forced them to make not such a retarded grip base on the cougar.
Do any other models have sharp grips protruding below the grip with a weird shelf /step on the back like that?
I must chime in on the PPK. I have an older one and it depends on what you feed it. Stick with ball ammo with a bit of powder to it and it should work well.
I have used jhp in mine with no trouble but I only use Prvi Partisan or Geco. The ammo I avoid is Remington UMC.
Also some of the S & W ones were not so hot.
Geco markets their 380 sometimes as 9mm browning harcourt.
Mine is blue and hasn't jammed in the 8 years I've had it. I shot it a bit when I first got it. My only grouse is the super heavy DA. But I just thumb cock it.
To be fair, I never CCWed it. It was more just to have
I had a IWI Jericho 941 ("Baby Eagle") in .40 S&W, polished nickel or Chrome or something or other finish. The trigger was pretty good, it was accurate and fed reliably, but the slide mounted safety/decocker say right next to the shallow and slippery smooth serrations. To add to that, the slide was very short vertically, which meant short serrations. That made racking the slide impossible unless your hands were completely dry. The gun was heavy as a brick, although this helped take the snappy nature of the cartridge.
All in all, not a terrible gun, but certainly not worth the price of admission.
I agree with what others said about the 1911. I appreciate the history, importance, aesthetics, ergonomics, accuracy, feel, etc. but feeding a variety of non-ball ammo is not its strength.
Dionysusigma
05-18-16, 17:49
1911 - hammer bite. Was a Sistema 1927 that was in rough shape, paid a song for it, but was too broke at the time to get a beavertail. Reliable and accurate, though. Paid as part of rent in aforementioned hard times.
M&P 9 - least accurate handgun I've ever owned. I can shoot the G17, P220, and VP9 for hours and get 7" groups at 10 yards, but the M&P was about 15". Sold it off.
Everything else I've had that's been mentioned so far in this discussion - Sig Mosquito, Bersa .380, TriStar T-120 (basically a Baby Eagle), even a Taurus PT92 - all ran fine for me. I've actually been thinking about getting a PT92 or 99 again if they're still around.
ramairthree
05-18-16, 17:53
I have become disenchanted with 1911s.
They are like a car with a carburetor.
You get everything running great.
It idles fine, the four barrel kicks in perfectly.
Then one day it does not want to idle. Then that is good to go but you accelerate pump is off and you bog when you first hit the gas,
Then points. Then plugs. Then you drop in a Petronix with new plague and all is good to go.
Until a few months later. You have to gas it until warmer to idle. Even when that was not an issue just a few months ago.
You don't buy a 1911. You marry it. It's all fun and new and sexy. Then it gets old, less sexy, and more bitchy.
ramairthree
05-18-16, 17:56
1911 - hammer bite. Was a Sistema 1927 that was in rough shape, paid a song for it, but was too broke at the time to get a beavertail. Reliable and accurate, though. Paid as part of rent in aforementioned hard times.
M&P 9 - least accurate handgun I've ever owned. I can shoot the G17, P220, and VP9 for hours and get 7" groups at 10 yards, but the M&P was about 15". Sold it off.
Everything else I've had that's been mentioned so far in this discussion - Sig Mosquito, Bersa .380, TriStar T-120 (basically a Baby Eagle), even a Taurus PT92 - all ran fine for me. I've actually been thinking about getting a PT92 or 99 again if they're still around.
You can walk out of just about any pawn shop in a hundred mile radius of me with a Taurus 92 for 300 cash.
I only pick the new enough for a decocker, old enough for no lock ones.
My only gripe is they are not beretta 92 mag compatible unless you modify the release. They seem to put less effort into fit but more on finish then beretta. They work.
Eurodriver
05-18-16, 18:12
Kind of oddball, but mine is the Ruger Mk-III. I've been shooting with two friends who each had one, and both times the pistol jammed so badly that it couldn't be made to function again without tools. Bad luck, maybe, but it soured the model for me. Coupled with the extended neck-beard hoarding of .22, I pretty much gave up on the idea of a .22 pistol.
Brother you are missing out. I've got a MkIII with a T1 and X300V and Pilot 2 that is a coon killer. I can shoot that thing in my house with CCI quiets!
Check out the NFA forum 22 host thread for some good ideas.
I also take some exception to the 1911 hate. A lot do suck but...
I have a Kimber (dun dun DUUN) and have shot several 1500 PPC matches with it.
I just keep it wet and shoot it. You do have to be mindful of PM, but if you delete the FLGR, they can be pretty accurate and reliable.
It's not like a Glock where you can just chunk it in a vat of piss and saltwater and then feed it corrosive, carcinogenic Soviet ammo all day, but reasonable care will keep it going.
If I can keep one going, no reason anyone else couldn't and I'm about as high speed as a fat kid on his sisters bike trying to peddle uphill
teutonicpolymer
05-18-16, 18:54
I don't understand the title, SA as in single action? If so then I guess the Browning hi power since it has a lot of great things but then the details just screw it up, namely the increased perceived recoil (to me) versus other guns, marginal ergonomics, too small a magwell, and perhaps most importantly, the terrible trigger. There are of course other things.
ramairthree
05-18-16, 19:30
I don't understand the title, SA as in single action? If so then I guess the Browning hi power since it has a lot of great things but then the details just screw it up, namely the increased perceived recoil (to me) versus other guns, marginal ergonomics, too small a magwell, and perhaps most importantly, the terrible trigger. There are of course other things.
Semi auto, sorry.
In the semi auto thread, forgot could get confused with single action.
I cannot shoot the G43 to save my ****ing life. I don't know why, but I never have been able to. Doesn't fit my hand or something I guess....
I've also never held a Springfield XD or XDM series that I didn't think was a piece of shit
556BlackRifle
05-18-16, 20:45
I made the mistake of buying a Taurus many years ago. What a piece of garbage. Sold it and bought a Beretta. (As I should've done in the first place.)
Straight Shooter
05-18-16, 20:48
I had one of The first Kimber 1911's waay back in the nineties..forget the year, but I bought NIB and not even the dealer I ordered it from had heard of it. No one else had either...they thought it was "foreign made" or something. Anyway-kept & shot that gun for about 10 years...NEVER liked it. It gave me a lot of trouble, and and twice, during two separate patches, the FP Stop backed out and cost me both matches. I finally sold it and about that time decided to go all Glock. Glad I did, and have never looked back.
Straight Shooter
05-18-16, 20:52
I have become disenchanted with 1911s.
They are like a car with a carburetor.
You get everything running great.
It idles fine, the four barrel kicks in perfectly.
Then one day it does not want to idle. Then that is good to go but you accelerate pump is off and you bog when you first hit the gas,
Then points. Then plugs. Then you drop in a Petronix with new plague and all is good to go.
Until a few months later. You have to gas it until warmer to idle. Even when that was not an issue just a few months ago.
You don't buy a 1911. You marry it. It's all fun and new and sexy. Then it gets old, less sexy, and more bitchy.
DAMN. Of the COUNTLESS articles, reviews & discussions on the 1911 Ive ever read or been part of...THIS sis without doubt the best, most accurate description of the 1911 Ive ever seen. Especially the "marrying" part. GREAT POST!!
I've got quite a few 1911's, and they all run without drama. Love them, and would ( and do) count on them to protect me and mine.
BUT, the absolute worse gun I ever owned was a 1911. It was a new, AMT "Skipper", bought probably 40 years ago. It was the commander version of the Hardballer, and was a stainless 1911 before they had stainless 1911's down pat. Would not run, and when it did, it would break parts. Oh what bad memories.
Skip
Leaveammoforme
05-18-16, 21:23
G43? No thanks, I'll throw rocks.
I cannot shoot the G43 to save my ****ing life. I don't know why, but I never have been able to. Doesn't fit my hand or something I guess....
I've also never held a Springfield XD or XDM series that I didn't think was a piece of shit
Agreed on both counts.
The G43 is not a bad gun but its better for those with small/medium hands.
Disappointments:
Taurus PT-99 - I took the "Taurus is Just as Good as Beretta" articles in Guns and Ammo with a grain of salt but after Ken Hackathorn wrote a positive review in Combat handguns I gave one a try. This was about 1988/89. The gun was mechanically reliable and reasonably accurate but durability was poor. After three broken parts and three trips back to Taurus I dumped it. Despite my experience my cousin subsequently bought a PT-99, one of the first de-cocker models, and had teh exact same experience, three parts breakages, three trips back to Taurus, with Taurus replacing the gun on his third trip.
Kimber 1911s: I've tried a total of five Kimber 1911's, three .45s, a .22 LR and a 9mm, all 5' guns. Of the five the only one which ran reliably was the 9mm. The .22and two fo the .45s went back to Kimber and still wouldn't run.
IME Colt, SA and up 1911's run with factory ammo and good / 7 rd mags. 1911s are not Glocks and require cleaning a preventive maintenance. Larry Vickers was spot on when he said if you treat your pistol like you treat your lawnmower, buy a Glock.
5" steel frame guns run the best. The further you deviate from 5" guns steel frame guns the greater your chances of issues.
ramairthree
05-18-16, 21:52
I cannot shoot the G43 to save my ****ing life. I don't know why, but I never have been able to. Doesn't fit my hand or something I guess....
I've also never held a Springfield XD or XDM series that I didn't think was a piece of shit
I love how the XDM feels in my hand and points.
I can just n ver bring myself to buy.
I have even shot a couple and the ones I have seen at matches shoot fine.
I don't know,
I guess they are a great game gun.
It's like I feel guilty for liking them.
I have had some high profile proponents of the M&Ps in proximity,
But I hate how it feels.
FN Hipower.
Jam, jam, jam, jam, jam, jam.....I wanted to like it but....jam, jam...
Ruger P89.
My first handgun. Shot ok I guess. Trigger was like dragging a boulder uphill over gravel and smaller boulders
Beretta 92
Feels good in hand, balances great but when I shoot it it patterns like a 12G buck shot at 50 yards
S&W m27 highway patrolman
Random light primer strikes
Star Model B. See Hipower
M&P 357sig
would not extract empty cases
On the other hand I've had 3 1911s in various price ranges and they've all been 100%. Granted I didn't shoot them as much as my G19/17 but I've treated them like Glocks and always had good luck. A Citadel (Rock Island), Norinco and now I have a TRP
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I love how the XDM feels in my hand and points.
I can just n ver bring myself to buy.
I have even shot a couple and the ones I have seen at matches shoot fine.
I don't know,
I guess they are a great game gun.
It's like I feel guilty for liking them.
I have had some high profile proponents of the M&Ps in proximity,
But I hate how it feels.
I ran an XDM .40 for three Redback One classes without even cleaning. After the ribbing I took in the first class from Jason, I decided to just keep running it to annoy him. It never failed, and still hasn't to this day. Over 7000 trouble free rounds. Probably time for some springs now.
Anyhow... back on topic... My worst pistol was a Kahr CW40... right out of the box it would randomly eject magazines. I was in no mood to send the pistol back, so I just bought a new mag release and installed it.. Fixed the gun for about 100 rounds, then it started again. I tossed it in the back of the safe with the XDM and changed completely over to Glock 19's.
ramairthree
05-19-16, 01:11
My four 1911s have been:
The one I was issued my first three years in,
Loose and rattling, not accurate, with dated mags.
I could not get more than a hundred rounds without a couple of malfunctions.
Then I got issued a shiny new beretta and the AMU came to give a two week MTT on it.
Reliable and accurate, and I have found many more to be since. I had the same one my last 8 years in.
The second unit I was in still had 1911s.
Old, but had been stored forever and were like brand new guns.
Ran like a sewing machine for three years.
And then it did not for another year despite repeat TLC.
Then an alloy frame P14.
Laugh, but it ran like a sewing machine for 5 years,
Then new mags in the middle of the AWB and ran great another five years then a bunch of FTE.
I removed and bent the extractor and then trouble free for a year or two and FTE again.
Then a SS Limited P14.
Beat like a rented mule.
Gotten rattling and less accurate.
Then safety bumps up easy into safe during a string of fire.
I am a thumbs down shooter,
But it was not an issue before. Combo of extended safety and weak catch and thumbs down not good.
Then front sight fell off.
I keep meaning to get them tuned and fresh again hut keep finding other stuff to do.
Then all the queens I have seen at matches being finicky or guys guns spending more time with armorer than on range.
Edit-
This will annoy friend of the breed of peace,
But 1911s are like pit bulls,
It can be the greatest dog in the world until one day it is not.
If that day does not come you are lucky or it did not live long enough.
Greatest disappointments:
HK USP .45c, started out like any other HK, accurate and reliable. But became problematic, FTE's and the mags wouldn't seat when full and the slide was down. I sent it back to HK twice with no joy, traded for a G17.
Two Steyre M series, just plain unreliable
sundance435
05-19-16, 08:08
Most of my bad experiences were with 1911's, especially Springfield's. The only ones that worked reliably right out of the box that I would trust were bone-stock Colt's. I've purchased others that I just never warmed up to, like a USP45, XD's, etc.
M&P 9 - least accurate handgun I've ever owned. I can shoot the G17, P220, and VP9 for hours and get 7" groups at 10 yards, but the M&P was about 15". Sold it off.
I agree with this. I bought one last year. I had the same issue. I dry fired the hell out of it, and got to where I could keep the gun steady when the trigger broke. Yet when I got to the range - it didn't translate into real world accuracy. I can shoot a Glock 17 or an HK VP9 or PPQ perfectly fine... Just pick it up and go. But not that damn 9mm M&P. I finally got sick of it and sold it.
It was one of the few polymer guns I didn't feel the need to put a rubber grip on - felt nice in the hand. But damn, I just couldn't shoot the gun.
Beretta PX4. Shaped weird, felt cheap. Hated the decocker. Shot it well enough. The rotating bolt was a bit different.
Just never warmed up to it.
I'll ask...why do people not like the XD? I have a 9 subc, and it seems well made and is super accurate. Not my favorite, but I certainly don't dislike it. It's one of the early green ones.
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Mine was a Kimber tactical pro 2. It was my first purchase and I knew nothing. No amount of loctite could keep the grip screws from backing out and it suffered from various malfunctions regardless of how much lube I threw at it or how much I spent on reliable mags. Sold it promptly after taking it to a Vickers course and never looked back.
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Phillygunguy
05-19-16, 21:42
SW sigma 40ve. The trigger pull was so damn heavy and rigid plus in 40 cal, felt recoil was horrid
brushy bill
05-19-16, 23:15
Walther PPK/S. Agency issued back up gun that jammed so often through academy that I had zero confidence in it. I'd honestly have preferred a good, or even decent, knife. Admittedly, this was with training ammo, but it did not engender any comfort.
Honestly I have to say Gen 4 G19. I had never been a Glock fan, but the feature list on the Gen 4 got me to bite, especially at the blue label price. We all know that there were extraction and ejection issues, but I thought they were fixed by the time I bought. Mine worked flawlessly - except when shooting weak side unsupported and with 'range' grade ammo. It's also shooter sensitive; a good buddy of mine had multiple failures per magazine because he had some screws in his wrist and just didn't have the strength to handle it. Wife is the same. It's really too bad because I like the gun otherwise, but I know I can't trust it to run reliably.
Beretta PX4. Shaped weird, felt cheap. Hated the decocker. Shot it well enough. The rotating bolt was a bit different.
Just never warmed up to it.
I'll ask...why do people not like the XD? I have a 9 subc, and it seems well made and is super accurate. Not my favorite, but I certainly don't dislike it. It's one of the early green ones.
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The XD has a decent trigger and is reasonably accurate, however, I would never want one for defensive or duty use.
1) Unlike a 1911, the XD grip safety locks up the slide when not depressed - this can be an issue with malfunction clearance or one handed manipulation, especially if injured or if your grip is compromised. The only exception to this is the XDS grip safety, which does not lock the slide.
2) The XD is reasonably reliable in terms of cycle of operation but based on LE agency testing I'm familiar with the durability is poor.
3) This is compounded by the fact Springfield refuses to sell certain spare parts and generally wants you to send the gun back in for any thing and everything including parts replacement which should be part of routine preventive Maintainence like the striker and striker retaining pin.
I don't know of any significant LE agency in the U.S. which issues an XD variant. The NYPD recently authorized a version of the XDS (with a 12lb trigger pull) as a personal purchase back up and off duty gun.
.
2) The XD is reasonably reliable in terms of cycle of operation but based on LE agency testing I'm familiar with the durability is poor.
Just curious which LE agency. Up until I saw Easton Pa PD carrying XDs (don't know which version or cal) I didn't think any department actually authorized or issued XDs
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I was most disappointed with my first purchase. A Springfield XD45, I thought it would be a great pistol, but then I realized that it sucked. It did not shoot that well at all, and felt to blocky for me. Plus after reading about it I realized that it had too many add ons and safeties then a pistol should require. After two years with it I sold it and went the HK route.
Not my pistol, but my mother in law bought a S&W bodyguard .380….. It didn't shoot that great, trigger sucked and did not feel like a solid pistol.
The XD has a decent trigger and is reasonably accurate, however, I would never want one for defensive or duty use.
1) Unlike a 1911, the XD grip safety locks up the slide when not depressed - this can be an issue with malfunction clearance or one handed manipulation, especially if injured or if your grip is compromised. The only exception to this is the XDS grip safety, which does not lock the slide.
2) The XD is reasonably reliable in terms of cycle of operation but based on LE agency testing I'm familiar with the durability is poor.
3) This is compounded by the fact Springfield refuses to sell certain spare parts and generally wants you to send the gun back in for any thing and everything including parts replacement which should be part of routine preventive Maintainence like the striker and striker retaining pin.
I don't know of any significant LE agency in the U.S. which issues an XD variant. The NYPD recently authorized a version of the XDS (with a 12lb trigger pull) as a personal purchase back up and off duty gun.
Interesting.
I'll have to check out the slide lock. I dry fire this xd9 subc numerous times every day, and have never encountered that.
I don't really do a lot of malfunction drills with it, that would not engage the grip safety, so that could explain why I've never seen it.
sevenhelmet
05-20-16, 10:06
Interesting.
I'll have to check out the slide lock. I dry fire this xd9 subc numerous times every day, and have never encountered that.
I don't really do a lot of malfunction drills with it, that would not engage the grip safety, so that could explain why I've never seen it.
It's true. I've had an XD45 since about 2008, and I had owned it for about 6 years before somebody pointed out the slide lock "feature". I had never held the gun in such a way that the grip safety wasn't depressed, so I tried it. That opened my eyes to a lot. The XD was a great into to pistols for me. Mine is accurate and reliable, despite the issues already mentioned in this thread. I've used it for numerous USPSA/IDPA matches, CCW class, and it's been my nightstand gun for years. But as I progress in shooting, I find I'm using it less and less.
It's true. I've had an XD45 since about 2008, and I had owned it for about 6 years before somebody pointed out the slide lock "feature". I had never held the gun in such a way that the grip safety wasn't depressed, so I tried it. That opened my eyes to a lot. The XD was a great into to pistols for me. Mine is accurate and reliable, despite the issues already mentioned in this thread. I've used it for numerous USPSA/IDPA matches, CCW class, and it's been my nightstand gun for years. But as I progress in shooting, I find I'm using it less and less.
I'll be damned...y'all are correct. Not that I doubted, but like I said I've handled this gun extensively. I think it was 2008/09 when I bought it.
Unfortunately, my first SA was a 40 cal Sigma, which for a cheap gun wasn't bad except for the 12lb trigger. It was accurate, reliable, and was just over $300 new. I learned a TON on that gun. I remember asking the armorer at the local range, which is owned by a 2 time Bianchi Cup champ, if I could get some "trigger work" done on it. Lol.
The first pistol I ever bought was an HS2000 with no rail and 16 round mags. I also found some Beretta 92 mags modded to fit it and they worked fine (during the Clinton AWB). That pistol got shot a lot in a shoot house and on the range. I put no less than 10K rounds through it the year I owned it and it had one stovepipe. I remember it well as I actually watched the slide catch the case.
For $359 it was a great gun. I liked it a lot better than the Gen 2 and Gen 3 Glock 23s I had for the next few years. Those pistols were pretty dismal.
ramairthree
05-20-16, 16:44
Basically,
The XDM is considered a great game gun. For some it fits the hand great and points great.
Perfect to hit the range and a match half a dozen or a dozen times a year or so.
But it has issues reported with heavy use regarding durability.
It has design features that are not ideal for military or tactical use.
And it's glossed over origin does not draw loads of praise.
mkmckinley
05-20-16, 17:41
FEG PA-63 in 9X18. Painful to shoot, weird/shitty grip, terrible sights/trigger/controls, shitty cartridge, and terrible maching/finish.
6. Walther PPK/S
Jam-o-matic. James Bond would not have survived all those novels and movies if he really had to rely on this piece of shit.
My Walther PPs and every pre68 PPK I've ever shot have been 100%. I think this problem is unique to the US PPK/S guns. Heard it from plenty of people.
My Walther PPs and every pre68 PPK I've ever shot have been 100%. I think this problem is unique to the US PPK/S guns. Heard it from plenty of people.
Never got into PPs. What makes the US guns so special that they suck compared to the German
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By Far: SIG P-226 Legion SAO
I've carried some version of P-series SIG in a professional and personal capacity since the P-220 was imported into the USA as the Browning BDA. To say I am a fan of the P-series SIG is not sufficient. I have trusted them for critical use for a long, LONG time.
All versions I have owned have been DA/SA, but I've had the opportunity to use a SAO version a couple of times. When the Legion Series was introduced, I decided that I'd get the P-226 Legion SAO and picked-up the first one I found in-stock. I was immediately disappointed.
Out of the box, the trigger - one advertised as an "Enhanced Action with SRT" - was one of the worst single-action trigger pulls I've ever felt on a SIG handgun. I admit that most of my working/competition SIGS have been worked-on by Gray Guns, but all had fairly decent triggers out of the box. Not the Legion, though.
Not only did it have an atrocious trigger pull - it felt like pulling a tin can along a gravel road - but during dry-fire to get used-to the new-to-me operation of the handgun, it developed an annoying 'click' during the initial take-up of the trigger before it engaged the sear. I noticed that the more I dry-fired, the 'click' that was initially just audible became more annoyingly tactile.
I did some online research and discovered that several other SAO owners were experiencing the same issue. In a little bit of group trouble shooting with a couple of other experienced shooters, we discovered that the 'click' was caused by the safety lever (the piece that both raises the firing pin safety and trips the sear which drops the hammer) was slipping off the side of the trigger bar. This was an issue that wasn't going to improve over time.
After documenting the cause of the issue with written descriptions, pictures, and measurements, I contact SIG Customer Service. Following an extended back-n-forth, SIG agreed to 'look at' the handgun and provided a RMA shipping label. After 4 weeks of no contact, the handgun was shipped back with trigger bar being replaced, but exactly the same problem remaining...and a worse trigger feel to boot.
With another series of comms back-n-forth with SIG Customer Service with them claiming all was 'normal' with my piece and me calling BS louder and louder, higher-up their food chain, they agreed to have my Legion 'looked at' again, this time by one of the senior 'smiths.
Away it went again, returning 4 weeks later. It no-longer had the 'click' but it still had a exceptional amount of play in the safety lever (which was one of the original issues I identified to them). When I discovered the marks on the trigger bar that looked like they had clamped it in a vise and bent it slightly to "fix" it, I'd had enough.
The day after it was returned, I traded it in - unfired by me - on one of the Remington M24 Rebuilds that they have released.
I won't be selling-off any of the several SIG P-series handguns I had before I purchased the Legion SAO, but I'll never be buying another SIG of any kind.
Personally, I think the HK VP-series is looking pretty good right now.
ramairthree
05-20-16, 23:42
Never got into PPs. What makes the US guns so special that they suck compared to the German
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Good question.
No difference to me if a Beretta or Glock is made here or by their home team.
But SIG, etc.
NorthDakota
05-21-16, 13:14
HK VP9.
Trigger decent but my trigger finger kept getting bit by mag release, even with trying different grip configurations. I ended up dremeling down the hump a bit. Ended up selling it for a fair price and don't miss it.
Went back to only Glock and Walther PPQ in the polymer striker fired stable.
Beretta 96F- Bought it in '09 but never shot it for two years! At the time it was a great deal at $300 so I though "I love the 92 so why not...? Very reliable, zero issues but it was way too big for my hands with factory plastic grips and its recoil impulse, for me at least, seemed harsh in .40S&W. Changed the grips but still didn't enjoy the snappy recoil so sold it recently after toying with the idea of sending it off to Wilson. BTW, My 92F has slim grips and Ive done zero work/mods to gun and can't be happier.
FN FNP-45 - Was going to be my "house" gun. Got a great deal on it so again couldn't pass it up! I'm a sucker for a great price, even on horse shit, LOL!! Unfortunately the FNP was too big and constantly shifted in my hands after each round no matter what I did, skate board tape etc. I chose not to stipple it as I knew, at some point, I was going to sell it. I had some dead trigger issues that couldn't be diagnosed by FN factory so after its return from FN, sold it with full disclosure. Guy who purchased it, dumped it 2 months later, I think !
Para P13 Officers type 1911 Hicap/widebody early gun. One of my first guns , bought it because of a favorable magazine article (those gun rags always tell the whole truth ,right???) and my first 1911 type gun!. Never worked from the get-go. I was ignorant of the design and 1911s in general to think I could solve the issue by breaking it in, instead of shipping back to the factory. Wasted a lot of time, money and ammo trying to get it to run right. A friend bought it from and shipped to Kings Gun works in Cali to dump a bunch of money into it to run right, way more than I could've ever afforded or wanted to.
Auto Ordnance 1911 that had more sharp edges on it than a Spyderco knife! A coworker was leaving for a job in Europe and he got this as a HD gun but never even shot it. Receipt showed it was purchased in late 90's. I had helped him pack, sell his stuff and sell off his car before his move so as token of gratitude he gave it to me for $50. I was thrilled so next week took it to range with new ammo a few different manufacturers mags and proceeded to never fire a full mag through the gun. Front sight came off after 9rounds, hammer bite was atrocious, trigger pull was like very gritty followed by very heavy gritty pull then bang...sometimes, failure to fire a few times. It has never gone to the range again, one day I'll get rid of it as it would probably cost a boatload of cash to run right with all the right components.
Guns are always a learning experience that is also constantly evolving, at least for me. The ones I avoided, I now love & trust with my life. Ones I loved are still with me, but not as my primary EDC etc. My "serious" ones are fun no matter what and my "fun" ones were "serious" at one point but now are my "take out once in a while pieces for fun and novice exposure" guns!
Never got into PPs. What makes the US guns so special that they suck compared to the German
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No idea. Could be going from .32 to .380 but for the life of me I can't understand why that would matter. Could be mating a PPK slide with a PP frame, but again shouldn't matter. Could also be cheaper quality of control of manufacturing or parts vs. older German guns.
I've got an early PPK/S and so long as I feed it ball ammo it's fine. But I've heard more than a few people say then ended up with jamomatics so obviously something is there.
Slvr Surfr
05-22-16, 21:49
My first Dan Wesson Commander Bobtail in 10MM (Circa 2007/8). That thing was a beautiful POS. It never reliably ran worth a flip since day 1. Even after the expensive 500 round break in. It would lock back with rounds in the magazine. Also mags at the time were limited in manufacturers. I sent it back to DW three times and it had been to a local smith once. DW finally replaced it with another pistol. I went with a .45ACP CBOB. My replacement DW CBOB has been bullet proof and I still own it. The 10mm CBOB caused me to fear 1911's in any other caliber besides .45ACP.
My second massive disappointment was a bought new Gen 3 Glock 27. I absolutely hated that gun. Too small to shoot well for me. Felt like a brick in the hand, and never CC'd well. It was fairly reliable, even when converted to 9mm with a conversion barrel. I sold and bought the gun back from a friend and then traded away. It's main job was to be a backup gun to my duty Glock 22 and later, Glock 34.
Walther P22 - Biggest pot metal piece of shit gun ever produced. I bought it used and took it to the range a handful of times. I think I might have put 200 rounds of .22 through it during my ownership. One day the slide sheared in half causing it to smack me in the face at the range. I remember getting hit in the cheek just below my eye and wondering why the slide was on the ground. I realized that the other half of the slide was still on the gun. Smith and Wesson handled the warranty claim for Walther and tried to just replace the slide. I told them that I did not want that POS back and to replace it with something made of real metal. They ended up trading me into a Smith 22A.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/helas_9/P22/017.jpg
MountainRaven
05-23-16, 01:09
My Walther PPs and every pre68 PPK I've ever shot have been 100%. I think this problem is unique to the US PPK/S guns. Heard it from plenty of people.
I believe that the literary James Bond stopped carrying a PPK after a very public incident where a PPK jammed in the hands of a British bodyguard protecting a royal.
A link to a reprint of the story from the Beeb (no mention of the pistol jamming, though): http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/20/newsid_2524000/2524489.stm
Glock 23. Not sure what it was with that pistol, but I couldn’t shoot it for beans! I tried, quite a bit, too… had ~ 1500 rounds through it before I gave up. The gun was reliable and ran fine, but I couldn’t group with it to save my life… and I mean that literally because I bought it to be a carry gun! I shoot my 27 alright, and my 17s pretty well… but the 23 was not for me.
Ended up selling it and replacing it with a P30 V1, 40SW.
KalashniKEV
05-23-16, 10:48
M&P 9c
Remember the old advice to go to the gun show, pick up a hundred different pistols, decide which one feels the best, and then walk out the door and go find the best price on it?
I stopped giving that advice after owning this gun.
Sure, it felt great in the hand, but damn... it could not group in anyone's hands. Neither could my friend's full size!
I should have known better after the first outing and dumped it, but for some reason I really wanted to like it and started picking up mags, NS, holster, etc...
It felt great to get rid of. Lesson learned- just because it feels nice doesn't mean it's accurate or reliable or not junk.
A close runner up was the Springfield Armory MilSpec Loaded 1911 with 3-dot sights. The trigger was basically... defective.
8. Browning Hi Power
In all fairness, I have only ever shot one example, but my dad's Hi Power was such a jam-o-matic that I probably will never own one.
FN Hipower.
Jam, jam, jam, jam, jam, jam.....I wanted to like it but....jam, jam...
That's pretty weird to me... I really like the Hi Power and I've found them to be extremely reliable, even one of mine that looks like some conscript pissed his pants all over and left to rust for a year in a canvas holster.
M&P 9c
Remember the old advice to go to the gun show, pick up a hundred different pistols, decide which one feels the best, and then walk out the door and go find the best price on it?
I stopped giving that advice after owning this gun.
Sure, it felt great in the hand, but damn... it could not group in anyone's hands. Neither could my friend's full size!
I should have known better after the first outing and dumped it, but for some reason I really wanted to like it and started picking up mags, NS, holster, etc...
It felt great to get rid of. Lesson learned- just because it feels nice doesn't mean it's accurate or reliable or not junk.
A close runner up was the Springfield Armory MilSpec Loaded 1911 with 3-dot sights. The trigger was basically... defective.
That's pretty weird to me... I really like the Hi Power and I've found them to be extremely reliable, even one of mine that looks like some conscript pissed his pants all over and left to rust for a year in a canvas holster.
Dunno. That was my first and only experience with a Hipower. Prior to going to the range I had bought a few new McGar mags so it wasn't a question of a possibly bad used mag. Oddly enough I had the same problem with a like new W. German Sig 226. This one was about 4 years ago. Beautiful gun, like new. Couldn't get through a full mag without a malfunction.
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FN 45 Tactical. Wanted to love it, but just could not get there.
Kind of in a weird place with the M&P's I currently own also. Same as the FN, want to like them, and I don't dislike them, just not there. Not sure why either, mine have been very reliable and accurate.
Been tempted to sell everything and just get a couple of Glocks and call it a day.
Psalms144.1
05-24-16, 10:42
Most disappointing semiautos? Let's see:
-Anything GLOCK in other than 9mm; AND the five G19s I bought (or was provided by GLOCK as replacements) between early 2010 and early 2012
-A Colt "Combat Elite" that wouldn't shoot more than three rounds without a FTF, FTE, or what have you (this was back in the "bad old days" of Colt in the late 80s, early 90s)
-Browning BDM (don't know WHAT I was thinking when I bought that)
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