View Full Version : Most Accurate 16" Stainless Barrel for...
Just for clarification, this isn't a "who is the most awesome barrel maker evar!" thread, so please don't take it down that road. This is specifically for selecting a barrel based on the parameters below, used in a precision role.
I'm in the process of rebuilding my precision 5.56 carbine and want to get the most accuracy out of it as possible. Currently, it has a 16" Noveske Recon barrel. I'm not opposed to keeping the Noveske barrel, but since I'm making this a pure precision build, replacing it isn't off limits either.
The intended use for this carbine is for 300-500yds, with most shooting done around the 300yd mark. I mainly shoot 69-77gr OTM commercial factory and match loads, and currently have a decent amount of Mk262 clone ammo. I don't really have a price limit, though I'd prefer to keep the cost below $500.
Given my intended usage and role, what is the most accurate barrel that would be available? As an aside, I'm not against going to an 18" barrel for this build, if there's compelling reason to do so.
Other part specs:
- Noveske forged lower+upper
- Geissele SD-E
- Magpul UBR
- Sionics NP3 BCG
daddyusmaximus
05-18-16, 23:49
Just by virtue of the fact you are shooting at 300-500 yds, I'd go with the 18" or even a 20" to keep the MV up. Rainier Arms Ultramatch has a good reputation. I've never had one, but it is what I will be going with on my current .308 build. I'm going 14.5" but I'll never shoot 500 yds again unless I have to.
I'd do everything you want but keep the noveske barrel unless you aren't happy with it. For 300-500 yards it should be perfect. I don't see a reason to go longer than 16" unless you plan on shooting frequently at over 500.
Krieger barrels are awesome.
How is the Noveske shooting? I'm running a 14.5 Afghan and it shoot lights out. I haven't gotten it up 500yds but I have 100% confidence it would perform admirably at that range.
How is the Noveske shooting? I'm running a 14.5 Afghan and it shoot lights out. I haven't gotten it up 500yds but I have 100% confidence it would perform admirably at that range.
Mine holds just under MOA at 400yds (farthest I've shot for actual groups). Fairly decent, but nothing spectacular from what I've seen with some custom builds. I'm curious how well a Krieger, RA Supermatch, or similar would compare to that.
556BlackRifle
05-19-16, 01:23
If that Noveske is a shooter, I'd hang onto it. I've got a Noveske SS Recon and Recce light, both 16 inch and I love em. They are both sub MOA with good ammo.
White Oak, Kreiger, Shilen, etc.
Anyone have experience with Douglas barrels? How do their 1/8 twist 16-18" compare with Noveske's offerings? How does Krieger compare to Douglas?
I have a 16" White Oak match in .223 Wylde and it is a great shooter. Meets your price point as well.
I also have two Noveske N4 recon barrels. A 16" and a 14.5" Afghan. The WOA out shoots them. The Noveske's are setup differently though.
Just going to throw this out there. The Larue Stealth barrels are on sale again, Till the 4th of July I think. I picked up a 16" stealth barrel last year for a Recce build I did and it has been a laser.
Mine holds just under MOA at 400yds (farthest I've shot for actual groups). Fairly decent, but nothing spectacular from what I've seen with some custom builds. I'm curious how well a Krieger, RA Supermatch, or similar would compare to that.
If yours shoots that well I'd keep it. Not many of us can even hold 1 MOA at 400 yards with a practical rifle. I can't. These spectacular groups these guys brag about... It's easy to shoot a tiny group if you shoot enough groups. Problem is they only brag about the tight groups.
Mine holds just under MOA at 400yds (farthest I've shot for actual groups). Fairly decent, but nothing spectacular from what I've seen with some custom builds. I'm curious how well a Krieger, RA Supermatch, or similar would compare to that.
1 MOA @ 400 yds with commercial ammo?? I'd hang on to that barrel till you shoot the rifling out of it and then spend money. IMO you won't be getting radical upgrades in accuracy from a barrel swap. If you're really interested in squeezing some more accuracy out of the system (you, gun and ammo) start reloading. Finding an OAL, projectile and/or powder combo will do more for you than the barrel.
1 MOA @ 400 yds with commercial ammo?? I'd hang on to that barrel till you shoot the rifling out of it and then spend money. IMO you won't be getting radical upgrades in accuracy from a barrel swap. If you're really interested in squeezing some more accuracy out of the system (you, gun and ammo) start reloading. Finding an OAL, projectile and/or powder combo will do more for you than the barrel.
I had to shoot a ton of different ammo to find what it liked. Mine hated most lighter rounds. I got lucky with some of the old Wolf Gold (PPU) 75gr OTM - I'm not sure they manufacture it anymore. I had two 16" Noveske barrels that both loved it, as well as a friend's 24" 1/9 Savage bolt gun - the Wolf Gold shot easily .6 @ 100 in that thing, surprisingly.
Back on topic, is there inherently any accuracy difference in a Krieger, Douglas, etc. vs the Noveske for my application?
I'd throw Bartlein into the mix, they are highly regarded on the Hide. I have one on my Grendel, and have had excellent results. I don't think I've had more than one group over MOA with Hornady factory ammo. Would it be more accurate than the Noveske? Almost certainly. Substantially so? Likely not. At some point you hit the point of diminishing returns.
BlackWatch16
05-19-16, 10:09
The reason why nobody is offering a definitive answer or solution for you is because one does not really exist for the questions you are asking. Sure, everyone has their opinion on their favorite barrels, but no, you are not going to find a noticeable difference, within shooter error, in the practical (key word) accuracy between a Noveske, WOA, Krieger, Douglass, Bartlein, Larue and for that matter BCM SS410 (Criterion) as it pertains to your particular application. And by that I am assuming your current application with a 16" Noveske is more of a "do all" rifle that is also very accurate, not just a static prone or bench rest rifle. But I'm assuming since you didn't really specify.
As with your barrel/ammo combo, you will have to find the sweet spot with ammo for any barrel you get, especially if you reload or plan to in the future.
Remember that accuracy is more shooter-based and precision is equipment-based; and precision is not a function of MV. So if you want to replace your barrel simply to be more accurate at 300-500, or even further, the 1st question is what is your skill level? The 2nd question is are you not happy with what your Noveske is giving you at that range right now? An extra 50-200 fps might not help precision...it just might mitigate wind drift a little, but that is also not dependent on precision...it's a function of time of flight and the shooter's ability to make good wind calls. Do you want more retained velocity or retained energy at distance in order to hunt or penetrate specific mediums? If so, maybe a longer barrel is for you, but it doesn't seem like that is your intended application.
If you are considering replacing a great 16" with another great 16" barrel for the same application, I would say don't waste your time, especially if your existing upper is a factory built Noveske...you are probably not going to be able to top that with your own custom frankengun as it relates to reliability, fit of the gas block, etc. If you are considering replacing it with a 18" or even a 20" barrel to get more velocity and effects at long range, I would say just build a new upper for that intended application...and while you're at it you probably wanna toss it on a lower with a rifle length buffer so it is truly a rifle and recoils as such. These options are probably well above $500, unless you have parts available, and therefore likely aren't worth your time either.
Aside from all that, my last question is what glass are you using? If you truly want better accuracy at distance (since you already have good precision), then the bottom line is you need to see better. Don't waste your money on a barrel that will perform just like the one you have if you are looking through cheap/poor quality glass or that has inconsistent turrets/tracking or a reticle that you don't get along with very well. And take it a step further...if you only have 4 or 6 max power, but you want the best accuracy you can get at 500 and beyond, the bottom line is you need more magnification...don't let anyone tell you different even if it's for a 5.56 gun. 4 or 6 is fine for a "do all" carbine, but not for a true long range precision rifle. We have all learned this over the years and have stopped lying to ourselves and letting our egos fail us...10x is not enough for a 7.62, and 6 is not enough for a 5.56. We need to put the right piece of glass on our rifles if we truly want to see better consistent long range effects.
So yeah, you are probably better served shooting the carbine you have and paying for more ammo, more training, and/or saving for a better optic. Hope this helps!
The reason why nobody is offering a definitive answer or solution for you is because one does not really exist for the questions you are asking. Sure, everyone has their opinion on their favorite barrels, but no, you are not going to find a noticeable difference, within shooter error, in the practical (key word) accuracy between a Noveske, WOA, Krieger, Douglass, Bartlein, Larue and for that matter BCM SS410 (Criterion) as it pertains to your particular application. And by that I am assuming your current application with a 16" Noveske is more of a "do all" rifle that is also very accurate, not just a static prone or bench rest rifle. But I'm assuming since you didn't really specify.
As with your barrel/ammo combo, you will have to find the sweet spot with ammo for any barrel you get, especially if you reload or plan to in the future.
Remember that accuracy is more shooter-based and precision is equipment-based; and precision is not a function of MV. So if you want to replace your barrel simply to be more accurate at 300-500, or even further, the 1st question is what is your skill level? The 2nd question is are you not happy with what your Noveske is giving you at that range right now? An extra 50-200 fps might not help precision...it just might mitigate wind drift a little, but that is also not dependent on precision...it's a function of time of flight and the shooter's ability to make good wind calls. Do you want more retained velocity or retained energy at distance in order to hunt or penetrate specific mediums? If so, maybe a longer barrel is for you, but it doesn't seem like that is your intended application.
If you are considering replacing a great 16" with another great 16" barrel for the same application, I would say don't waste your time, especially if your existing upper is a factory built Noveske...you are probably not going to be able to top that with your own custom frankengun as it relates to reliability, fit of the gas block, etc. If you are considering replacing it with a 18" or even a 20" barrel to get more velocity and effects at long range, I would say just build a new upper for that intended application...and while you're at it you probably wanna toss it on a lower with a rifle length buffer so it is truly a rifle and recoils as such. These options are probably well above $500, unless you have parts available, and therefore likely aren't worth your time either.
Aside from all that, my last question is what glass are you using? If you truly want better accuracy at distance (since you already have good precision), then the bottom line is you need to see better. Don't waste your money on a barrel that will perform just like the one you have if you are looking through cheap/poor quality glass or that has inconsistent turrets/tracking or a reticle that you don't get along with very well. And take it a step further...if you only have 4 or 6 max power, but you want the best accuracy you can get at 500 and beyond, the bottom line is you need more magnification...don't let anyone tell you different even if it's for a 5.56 gun. 4 or 6 is fine for a "do all" carbine, but not for a true long range precision rifle. We have all learned this over the years and have stopped lying to ourselves and letting our egos fail us...10x is not enough for a 7.62, and 6 is not enough for a 5.56. We need to put the right piece of glass on our rifles if we truly want to see better consistent long range effects.
So yeah, you are probably better served shooting the carbine you have and paying for more ammo, more training, and/or saving for a better optic. Hope this helps!
Regarding usage, the rifle was previously a "do-it-all" rifle that I'd like to transition to a pure precision role, e.g. mostly bench shooting and maybe the occasional precision carbine course.
For optics, it currently sports a Nightforce 2.5-10x24. I also have a NF 3.5-15x50 F1 I could swap it out with, but that's currently assigned to my .308.
Regarding building vs. keeping it factory, this upper in particular was a factory Noveske. However, I'm not big on the SWS rail and their old style uppers preclude the use of Geissele handguards, so I bought a stripped upper receiver and handguard with the intent to use the old barrel. That's where I'm currently at. However, I realized that, since I'm practically replacing everything else, why not include the barrel as a possibility as well?
All of that is to say, I agree - for practical purposes, most barrels would likely be the same. But, since I'm re-assembling an upper one way or another, I'd like to do everything I can to get the most inherently accuracy out of the barrel for my intended purposes, just to minimize variables.
Reloading is my next goal, and I don't expect to get the most out of accuracy until I can start doing it.
BlackWatch16
05-19-16, 10:36
So you haven't disassembled the factory upper yet? If not I would say keep it for a high round count blaster/3 gun rifle, or just sell it to fund what you really want. Used factory Noveske uppers and complete rifles hold value quite well. If you already have the ideal upper, handguard, and good glass, then buy the barrel you really want for your intended application. In that case, I still think a rifle length buffer is a smart choice.
jerrysimons
05-19-16, 10:43
The reason why nobody is offering a definitive answer or solution for you is because one does not really exist for the questions you are asking. Sure, everyone has their opinion on their favorite barrels, but no, you are not going to find a noticeable difference, within shooter error, in the practical (key word) accuracy between a Noveske, WOA, Krieger, Douglass, Bartlein, Larue and for that matter BCM SS410 (Criterion) as it pertains to your particular application. And by that I am assuming your current application with a 16" Noveske is more of a "do all" rifle that is also very accurate, not just a static prone or bench rest rifle. But I'm assuming since you didn't really specify.
As with your barrel/ammo combo, you will have to find the sweet spot with ammo for any barrel you get, especially if you reload or plan to in the future.
Remember that accuracy is more shooter-based and precision is equipment-based; and precision is not a function of MV. So if you want to replace your barrel simply to be more accurate at 300-500, or even further, the 1st question is what is your skill level? The 2nd question is are you not happy with what your Noveske is giving you at that range right now? An extra 50-200 fps might not help precision...it just might mitigate wind drift a little, but that is also not dependent on precision...it's a function of time of flight and the shooter's ability to make good wind calls. Do you want more retained velocity or retained energy at distance in order to hunt or penetrate specific mediums? If so, maybe a longer barrel is for you, but it doesn't seem like that is your intended application.
If you are considering replacing a great 16" with another great 16" barrel for the same application, I would say don't waste your time, especially if your existing upper is a factory built Noveske...you are probably not going to be able to top that with your own custom frankengun as it relates to reliability, fit of the gas block, etc. If you are considering replacing it with a 18" or even a 20" barrel to get more velocity and effects at long range, I would say just build a new upper for that intended application...and while you're at it you probably wanna toss it on a lower with a rifle length buffer so it is truly a rifle and recoils as such. These options are probably well above $500, unless you have parts available, and therefore likely aren't worth your time either.
Aside from all that, my last question is what glass are you using? If you truly want better accuracy at distance (since you already have good precision), then the bottom line is you need to see better. Don't waste your money on a barrel that will perform just like the one you have if you are looking through cheap/poor quality glass or that has inconsistent turrets/tracking or a reticle that you don't get along with very well. And take it a step further...if you only have 4 or 6 max power, but you want the best accuracy you can get at 500 and beyond, the bottom line is you need more magnification...don't let anyone tell you different even if it's for a 5.56 gun. 4 or 6 is fine for a "do all" carbine, but not for a true long range precision rifle. We have all learned this over the years and have stopped lying to ourselves and letting our egos fail us...10x is not enough for a 7.62, and 6 is not enough for a 5.56. We need to put the right piece of glass on our rifles if we truly want to see better consistent long range effects.
So yeah, you are probably better served shooting the carbine you have and paying for more ammo, more training, and/or saving for a better optic. Hope this helps!
Great advice! You are crazy for wanting to take your Noveske apart to rebuild it if it is indeed holding statistically significant MOA group sizes at 400yd with commercial ammo. That is all I expect and strive for out of my practica precision ARs.
Maybe consider reloading and developing a load for that gun to get more precision out of it. Look at Molon's control groups using his reloads! To answer your question Kreiger barrels have a rep for what you seek but don't touch that upper, build a new one;)
Yeah, it sounds like your dead set on building a new upper. I'm actually in the process of trying decide on what route I want to build with my new Colt stripped upper. Leaning towards an 18" like yourself but I'm looking at either a Green Mountain or Ballistic Advantage barrel(this is a fun budget build;) )
This. The rifle is already a shooter if he's talking 1 moa with more than 3-shot groups with factory ammo, that's pretty tough to beat. Shoot it until the rifling is worn out and/or you have excessive throat erosion and your groups start opening up.
Noveske barrels are hard to beat. WO Precision (not WOA), Krieger, Douglas, Shillen, Mcgowen, Bartlien, or Compass Lake will make barrels that will shoot WITH Noveske's. But there's no reason for you to get rid of your barrel just to get something comparable.
If you're only shooting to 500 yards, your current 16" will be fine. Only reason to change barrels will be if you're really wanting to get a bit of extra velocity from 2-4 extra inches and/or if you're really wanting a different twist rate.
1 MOA @ 400 yds with commercial ammo?? I'd hang on to that barrel till you shoot the rifling out of it and then spend money. IMO you won't be getting radical upgrades in accuracy from a barrel swap. If you're really interested in squeezing some more accuracy out of the system (you, gun and ammo) start reloading. Finding an OAL, projectile and/or powder combo will do more for you than the barrel.
BlackWatch16
05-19-16, 11:44
If yours shoots that well I'd keep it. Not many of us can even hold 1 MOA at 400 yards with a practical rifle. I can't. These spectacular groups these guys brag about... It's easy to shoot a tiny group if you shoot enough groups. Problem is they only brag about the tight groups.
This is also worth repeating...many times over. Too many folks are loose with their accuracy/precision language, and frankly it portrays an unrealistic view of the precision shooting community. Talking about practical accuracy (getting combat effective hits) at long range, which I would define at more than 300-400m for a 5.56 and more than 500-600m for a 7.62 (dependent on specific barrel/ammo/glass combo) is MUCH different than talking about your particular weapon system's precision potential. And that's what it is...potential. We always hear folks brag about their MOA diameter at 100, and usually they talk about their best, not their average. And we rarely hear folks talk about MOA at distance, usually because there isn't much to brag about once you start playing in the wind, shooting ammo with a significant MV SD, and falling victim to your own ability to actually achieve the same consistent POA for each shot. With those variables, it's damn hard to shoot a 4" group at 400. Again, best group does not equal average group. Frankly, I am hesitant to ever claim a particular MOA at distance because it's just not realistic for me...but I'm not a bench rest/F class shooter.
My whole point is we need to be careful and responsible with our accuracy/precision language.
Anyone have experience with Douglas barrels? How do their 1/8 twist 16-18" compare with Noveske's offerings? How does Krieger compare to Douglas?
I had an 8 twist douglas that shot great. I mean great. I have one krieger now that outshoots it just by a bit. But until this krieger came along, the douglas was the top o my hill for barrels. Cant go wrong with either in my experience.
556BlackRifle
05-19-16, 12:49
It would be great if Moulon would chime in on this thread. That man has the data to backup his statements. I've learned a lot through reading his posts.
I have an 18" Rainier Ultramatch barrel in rifle gas and another in intermediate gas. Both are GREAT shooters (consistently .5moa @ 100yds). I also have a 16" Noveske Recon barrel that shoots lights out with the same accuracy as the Rainier barrels. All with handloads. I would stick with the Noveske barrel if I were you.
What kind of accuracy do you want, 10 shot groups at a given distance?
Vegasshooter
05-19-16, 16:22
The reason why nobody is offering a definitive answer or solution for you is because one does not really exist for the questions you are asking. Sure, everyone has their opinion on their favorite barrels, but no, you are not going to find a noticeable difference, within shooter error, in the practical (key word) accuracy between a Noveske, WOA, Krieger, Douglass, Bartlein, Larue and for that matter BCM SS410 (Criterion) as it pertains to your particular application. And by that I am assuming your current application with a 16" Noveske is more of a "do all" rifle that is also very accurate, not just a static prone or bench rest rifle. But I'm assuming since you didn't really specify.
As with your barrel/ammo combo, you will have to find the sweet spot with ammo for any barrel you get, especially if you reload or plan to in the future.
Remember that accuracy is more shooter-based and precision is equipment-based; and precision is not a function of MV. So if you want to replace your barrel simply to be more accurate at 300-500, or even further, the 1st question is what is your skill level? The 2nd question is are you not happy with what your Noveske is giving you at that range right now? An extra 50-200 fps might not help precision...it just might mitigate wind drift a little, but that is also not dependent on precision...it's a function of time of flight and the shooter's ability to make good wind calls. Do you want more retained velocity or retained energy at distance in order to hunt or penetrate specific mediums? If so, maybe a longer barrel is for you, but it doesn't seem like that is your intended application.
If you are considering replacing a great 16" with another great 16" barrel for the same application, I would say don't waste your time, especially if your existing upper is a factory built Noveske...you are probably not going to be able to top that with your own custom frankengun as it relates to reliability, fit of the gas block, etc. If you are considering replacing it with a 18" or even a 20" barrel to get more velocity and effects at long range, I would say just build a new upper for that intended application...and while you're at it you probably wanna toss it on a lower with a rifle length buffer so it is truly a rifle and recoils as such. These options are probably well above $500, unless you have parts available, and therefore likely aren't worth your time either.
Aside from all that, my last question is what glass are you using? If you truly want better accuracy at distance (since you already have good precision), then the bottom line is you need to see better. Don't waste your money on a barrel that will perform just like the one you have if you are looking through cheap/poor quality glass or that has inconsistent turrets/tracking or a reticle that you don't get along with very well. And take it a step further...if you only have 4 or 6 max power, but you want the best accuracy you can get at 500 and beyond, the bottom line is you need more magnification...don't let anyone tell you different even if it's for a 5.56 gun. 4 or 6 is fine for a "do all" carbine, but not for a true long range precision rifle. We have all learned this over the years and have stopped lying to ourselves and letting our egos fail us...10x is not enough for a 7.62, and 6 is not enough for a 5.56. We need to put the right piece of glass on our rifles if we truly want to see better consistent long range effects.
So yeah, you are probably better served shooting the carbine you have and paying for more ammo, more training, and/or saving for a better optic. Hope this helps!
^^^^^^^ There is so much good in this post I can't better it.
I have a VERY similar setup, Noveske upper Gen 2lower SD-E trigger, etc. I'm running a BCM (Criterion I think) barrel and bolt/bolt carrier. The reason I went BCM IS THAT THE GUN WAS A 6.8 when I got it, and I wanted to go back to a 5.56. I have had great luck with the BCM barrels, and they are 410 vs 416 stainless. Went with a matching bolt/bolt carrier because I'm ocd. The rifle is set up as a Recce with a Razor 1-6. I only tell you that as a basis because our guns are quite similar. The gun is very nice, easily shoots as good as I'm able. It is actually more accurate at 100 yds than my BCM SPR wearing a 18" tube. Only thing I can figure is 1) no two barrels are ever exactly the same 2) slightly stiffer due to being shorter. I'm not talking huge differences, but enough to see over the course of 5 to 10 5 shot groups. All of that means nothing except to say any quality barrel can likely shoot as good or better than most shooters. Pick a brand you trust and shoot the rifling out. Rinse, lather, repeat.
I've had 3 Noveske barrels and while they were great, a Krieger I had smoked em all. Look at the top high power shooters and Krieger will be popular.
Noveske makes some great barrels but they can be beat for accuracy.
Eurodriver
05-19-16, 18:51
Here is a pretty in depth thread about my search for precision.
http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w521/6234987u02/IMG_5162%201_zpsfdzoil3g.jpg
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?179387-600-yard-steel-shooting-with-5-56-Post-197-NV-shooting-at-200-yards/page5
I ended up with a 20" Krieger and use it regularly out to 600 yards. It will shoot consistent 10 shot sub MOA out to 400, but beyond that it's hard to get ten shots in a row not to have one or a few affected by wind or trigger pull.
Of course, I could cherry pick 3 round groups, some of which have been sub 4" at 600 yards but that would make me no better than any other internet commando. If you are consistently shooting sub 4" 10-shot groups at 400 yards with a button rifled 16" barrel and factory ammo why even make this thread? That's better than anyone on this forum shoots.
BlackWatch16
05-19-16, 20:26
http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w521/6234987u02/IMG_5162%201_zpsfdzoil3g.jpg
If you are consistently shooting sub 4" 10-shot groups at 400 yards with a button rifled 16" barrel and factory ammo why even make this thread? That's better than anyone on this forum shoots.
Now THAT is a purpose-built precision 5.56 rifle. Not the only solution, but a damn good one...even down to the 20rd mag. And that statement is pure truth...kinda like what I said before about language but not quite as nice. Fact is...claims like that are just straight up exaggerated.
OP, if your goal is to have something like this, please do not break apart your factory Noveske...unless you are selling for funds :)
Here is a pretty in depth thread about my search for precision.
http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w521/6234987u02/IMG_5162%201_zpsfdzoil3g.jpg
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?179387-600-yard-steel-shooting-with-5-56-Post-197-NV-shooting-at-200-yards/page5
I ended up with a 20" Krieger and use it regularly out to 600 yards. It will shoot consistent 10 shot sub MOA out to 400, but beyond that it's hard to get ten shots in a row not to have one or a few affected by wind or trigger pull.
Of course, I could cherry pick 3 round groups, some of which have been sub 4" at 600 yards but that would make me no better than any other internet commando. If you are consistently shooting sub 4" 10-shot groups at 400 yards with a button rifled 16" barrel and factory ammo why even make this thread? That's better than anyone on this forum shoots.
Thanks for the link, very informative read; and nice build!
Regarding the accuracy of my current barrel, I don't consider 4" at 400 to be spectacular, but then again I'm more familiar with the accuracy potential of benchrest bolt guns where MOA is a starting point (not that I've shot BR, I'm just familiar with it). Naturally, if I use WWB, Federal, or anything surplus/cheap, etc. the groupings are almost always terrible. My best groups, when I do everything properly, are slightly sub-MOA, using ammo that is between $.80 to $2 a round (save for the Wolf Gold which the barrel loved). That's not to imply that I shoot well all the time, because I don't; that's just stating that I know the barrel is capable of at least MOA or better groups. Since I'm basically building/rebuilding, I'd like to reduce as many variables as possible, barrel included, even if I wouldn't necessarily be able to benefit from the inherent accuracy initially.
Hope that makes sense.
Interesting that you should mention button rifling, as I've been trying to find objective data on whether or not it detracts from accuracy compared to cut rifling. Any input or links here would be helpful.
Keep everything you have and buy a reloading setup.
see sig :rolleyes:
Don't compare the precision of bolt gun to a gas gun. Apples and oranges.
The short version is that both match grade button and cut rifled barrels can achieve the same level of accuracy if properly executed. I think most would agree cut rifled barrels have a longer life at their peak. I've noticed my cut rifled SPR Bartlien barrel cleans really well and never seems to collect much copper. IMO, the barrel's other features will have a bigger effect on things. Stuff like chamber, crown, profile gas port size and placement etc.
If you really want to see how much precision you can get out of your rifle, you need to reload. Bump size fresh once fired factory brass that has been fired out of your rifle and workup a charge. If you're going for range, just skip straight to a 77gr SMK bullet and IMR 8208XBR. Russian primers. The consistency you get from good crafted reloads far exceeds anything you'll ever get from a factory box.
Reading briefly through the thread, some sage advice has been provided.
My own thoughts, I have been an unabashed Noveske fan. I currently own two rifles with the stainless match barrels. The 16" Recon and the 14.5" and have used several other models, which were not mine. As the late Mr. Noveske, stated in the Defense Review article/ link: http://www.defensereview.com/noveske-rifleworks-n4-light-recce-carbine-john-noveske-interview-part-one/
"This [Stainless barrel] was designed to work…to do full-auto mag dumps with [Black Hills] MK 262 Mod 1 [77gr Open-Tip Match (OTM) 5.56x45mm ammo], and now you can sit there and pour as much ammo as you can through the gun on full-auto, and the thing that’s gonna’ fail is the gas tube. We haven’t had any stuck chambers since I came up with the recent chamber, which is called the Noveske…the acronym, which we write on the barrel is "NMm0", and that stands for Noveske Match Mod 0. It’s a chamber that gives you 100% reliability with as much retained accuracy as possible. You can have a more accurate chamber design, but you sacrifice battle-grade reliability. You can get stuck cases and other things with different chambers."
"The stainless-barreled uppers and rifles that we sell are a precision carbine."
"All the stainless barrels have…that button that we designed, I call "Improved Polygonal". The polygonal that I used in the past and that some other people are using has one shortcoming, which is an unpredictable end-of-service life. It goes from shooting great to tumbling bullets. Our barrel now gives you a predictable end-of-service life."
So, then essentially what you have is a combat oriented precision carbine that was designed with an emphasis on reliability vs accuracy. The stainless match barrels were designed to yield precision in a combat grade rifle. The design of the Noveske chamber reflects that fact.
If accuracy is the sole criteria for the use of your rifle, then find a precision oriented barrel with a "match" chamber which is tight, i.e. Krieger, etc.
Also, I agree with others that the pursuit of accuracy without reloading will be difficult. Unless, purchasing true match rounds such as Federal GMM or Black Hills type rounds are utilized. Reloading your once fired brass would provide the optimum starting point.
As suggested, keep that Noveske upper as is, or sell it and buy a true match grade 18-20" barrel and an appropriate optic for true target shooting where the emphasis is small groups at distance.
If you haven't had the opportunity, take a look at Molon's postings regarding his target shooting, equipment, and loading methodology. My short take is that using a low-powered combat type optic on a RECCE rifle is not the ideal for shooting precision at distance. By that I am referring to firing Sub MOA groups past 200-300 yards.
My Recon has a 1-4X Short Dot on it and I am pretty content with .75-1.5" at 100 yards firing factory match rounds. If I was truly interested in accuracy only, then I would put together an SPR like EURO's or likely buy a bolt gun with a high-powered optic.
One observation in Molon's posts here is the when he shoots for accuracy that the scope used is a 25X Leoupold.
In the end, it just boils down to matching the right tool for the job.
Good Luck in your quest for accuracy.
Noveske barrels are hard to beat. WO Precision (not WOA), Krieger, Douglas, Shillen, Mcgowen, Bartlien, or Compass Lake will make barrels that will shoot WITH Noveske's. But there's no reason for you to get rid of your barrel just to get something comparable
My observation is that you may run into more variance in individual barrels and load preferences in the above group, then you ever would differences between individual vendors
Likewise, you may find even your Noveske barrel does not shoot as well if put on another upper. I'm not a big believer in Special Sauce treatments on builds, but sometimes the Dynamics / harmonics just worked out well
Eurodriver
05-20-16, 10:28
Here's what my Krieger does with my handloads at 300 yards.
http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w521/6234987u02/Target%202_zpsksb9cu0y.png
Here's another image. The top right target was shot using my handloads (Onyx's recipe) and the bottom right group was using BH 5.56 77gr SMK. I believe this was at 300 yards as well. If you want to see a 0.40 MOA cherry picked group at 300 yards, check out the 3 rounds on the top left corner...
http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w521/6234987u02/IMG_5150_zpsq3s5f3sy.jpg
You can see a significant increase in vertical dispersion with the factory ammo, and an overall increase in group size. I feel that a quality 16" SS AR, such as a Noveske, can probably hold its own with a 20" Krieger out to 300 yards but beyond that the wind is going to kill you and any inconsistencies in the bore due to button rifling will become evident with velocity deviations. Even still, none of this will be evident unless you are tuning handloads for specific barrels.
http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w521/6234987u02/IMG_5461%202_zpsj5w6dts9.jpg
While I'm no expert, I have done quite a bit of research on the subject matter. If you were not getting 4" 10 round groups at 400 yards already I would tell you to pick your maximum range and what you want the rifle to do. If you want to shoot to 300 yards you can get by with a 10x and a 16" barrel and still be able to lug it around and shoot from the standing at 2.5x. If you want to shoot beyond that, you're gonna need to bump your magnification up to 15x at least and get an 18" or 20" cut rifled barrel but you'll be shooting from the ground 99% of the time.
But again, since you are getting sub moa 400 yard groups already, why change?
My own thoughts....
That makes a lot of sense.
If accuracy is the sole criteria for the use of your rifle, then find a precision oriented barrel with a "match" chamber which is tight, i.e. Krieger, etc.
I'm looking for the best of both reliability and precision, so it seems the Noveske is well within that sweet spot.
That being said, are there any other similar barrels that are still within both, but lean more towards accuracy? Where in the precision vs reliability realm would a Douglas SPR barrel fall?
Molon obtained excellent groups with his Krieger, and Euro's SPR is a fine shooter as well. You may want to start there.
Papa Bear and MarkM shoot alot with .223/ 5.56 at long range, so it may be worth sending a pm to them for some suggestions.
I think that any quality stainless match barrel properly set-up will give you good results.
But for your desire of having utmost reliability and match grade accuracy is often not compatible. Noveske is the closest that I know of with those characteristics.
Finally, you may contact Monty from Centurion and see what they could put together for you that would come close.
daddyusmaximus
05-20-16, 14:17
I enjoy learning more about accurate shooting. I was the first to answer the OP. I have a plan to go with a Rainier Arms Ultramatch barrel on my current build. Since page 1 Rainier Arms has not been mentioned. I have read bout Noveske, WOA, Krieger, Douglass, Bartlein, Larue, BCM, and Criterion. Most seem to like the Noveske or the Krieger. That has me thinking about my own choice.
Can anyone say if the Rainier Arms Ultramatch is a good barrel?
I'm still looking for a stainless 16" barrel like the op, medium contour. (possibly a 14.5 with a welded brake) Difference is I'm building a .308 that I'll probably never shoot over 300~400 yds.
Eurodriver
05-20-16, 14:52
Most seem to like the Noveske or the Krieger. That has me thinking about my own choice. Can anyone say if the Rainier Arms Ultramatch is a good barrel?
I've never understood this, but the gun world is inundated with the mentality of being "different". I've never seen it anyplace else. Not with cars, not with houses, not with airplanes, not with anything.
Do you think people are choosing Noveske and Krieger (for example only) because they are "following the herd" or because they work?
daddyusmaximus
05-20-16, 15:25
I've never understood this, but the gun world is inundated with the mentality of being "different". I've never seen it anyplace else. Not with cars, not with houses, not with airplanes, not with anything.
Do you think people are choosing Noveske and Krieger (for example only) because they are "following the herd" or because they work?
Didn't mean to bother you. I know what you like, and am glad it works for you. Don't care if I'm different, or the same, just looking for as good as I can get for the best price.
Looking forward to hearing from others who may have experience with Rainier Arms. I went back and made my question bold type, if that helps.
Can anyone say if the Rainier Arms Ultramatch is a good barrel?
I have no problem with say the Noveske, other than the only .308 Novesky I can find is a heavy profile barrel, and quite a bit ($130) more pricey. I'm looking for the best performance I can get out of a medium contour barrel. I'm hoping the Krieger can be ordered how you want, but their website shows a 20" as their shortest option in .308.
pointblank4445
05-20-16, 16:17
I feel that the V7 barrels don't get enough love. Their 16" barrel is lighter and a few bucks cheaper than their Noveske counter part. I don't shoot for groups often, but this one was at 100y w/ Blackhills 77gr
Of all my builds, the better shooters were:
Keriger, Douglas, and the V7.
http://67.media.tumblr.com/9bb20aa867ee8e90fcc0d76c722ee51f/tumblr_o2exb3bSv11td8lf5o2_1280.jpg
BlackWatch16
05-21-16, 02:02
Can anyone say if the Rainier Arms Ultramatch is a good barrel?
I'm still looking for a stainless 16" barrel like the op, medium contour. (possibly a 14.5 with a welded brake) Difference is I'm building a .308 that I'll probably never shoot over 300~400 yds.
I don't think there is anything wrong with your question...just not really on the same wavelength as the OP. He was asking specifically for ideas and data on 16" stainless barrels for a 5.56 precision carbine in comparison to his factory Noveske, not a custom 14.5-16" 308.
I personally do not have any experience with Rainier Arms simply because I've never found a reason to invest my money there in the hopes of discovering something "new" that I didn't already have. But like you, I have also heard good things from other people/forums, and I'm sure a quick search on Rainer Arms 308 barrels will turn up something of value. None of us here are purposely ignoring any particular barrel vendor. Like you said, we have listed many. For example, Daniel Defense also makes outstanding barrels, but they are not necessarily aimed at the long range precision user, so not really worth mentioning here.
FWIW (maybe not much), perhaps the issue with your build idea is that it doesn't make much sense, unless you have a very specific application that you haven't mentioned yet. You want to build a 14.5-16" precision 308, but don't care about shooting it beyond 300-400? This sounds more like a general purpose heavy carbine rather than a precision build. In my opinion you'd be much better served just finding a quality 308 factory rifle in your price point, especially considering the reliability issues you can encounter when trying to build your own 308 frankengun...another search on this topic will give you mountains of useful information.
I get it though...in this case you are probably just desiring to build your own 308 for the satisfaction it brings and figure out which parts are best to use...we've all been there. In this case, for a heavy carbine that you are only taking chip shots with, you might not want to spend high $ for an "ultramatch" anything. RA's match or select line will probably serve you just fine. Brownells also sells criterion 308 barrels for just a hair over $300, and if it doesn't work you can return it! I'm sure there are plenty of similar options...bottom line is I would advise against buying an expensive precision 308 barrel for a general use/short range gun, especially if you are thinking about welding a muzzle device onto a 14.5. This will take away some flexibility in the future for you to experiment with different muzzle devices, or save it when the barrel shoots out, or go a different direction if you don't like the barrel without the ass pain of removing a welded device.
elephantrider
05-21-16, 02:46
OP,
You are probably going to get the most performance out of a custom chambered barrel from a top quality single point cut rifled blank. Performance will not only be shot to shot accuracy with a preferred load, but also accuracy across multiples loads, useful accurate barrel life, resistance to fouling, and ease of cleaning. Very accurate barrels can be set up with so-so button rifled blanks, but you probably wont get the same barrel life and consistency, etc.
Top quality cut rifled blanks are Bartlein, Kreiger, Brux, Hawk Hill, K&P, Rock Creek. These are what the accuracy minded folks use.
Compass Lake Engineering, Craddock Precision, Patriot Valley Arms, and others can custom chamber a blank to your specs. with your bolt.
That being said, are there any other similar barrels that are still within both, but lean more towards accuracy? Where in the precision vs reliability realm would a Douglas SPR barrel fall?
My SPR has a Centurion 18'' barrel, which I believe starts with a Douglas blank. It got me into handloading about 1-2 years ago. I need to post some updates, but I am happy with the barrel and won't change it until it is shot out. It is my understanding that Mk 262 was designed for use in this barrel, or vice versa for the Mk-12. I'm still getting my handloads dialed in (just got my first chronograph) and am having tons of fun shooting at 700 yards in the desert. One thing regarding reliability... these precision barrels seem to be headspaced at or very near SAAMI minimum. I have had some crappy CBC ammo that had headspacing all over the place. Sometimes a cartridge was too long to chamber. I went home and measured a bunch of cartridges and found some that wouldn't chamber in my BCM either. However, my SR-15 swallows a No-Go gauge so it will shoot anything:cool: Anyways, that was the last time I put factory ammo through the SPR.
With handloads, I can keep the *mean radius* of 10 shot groups below 0.3 MOA, which seems pretty good based on what I see posted on this site.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?109073-Mk-12-Mod-P2000
Here was my best 10 shot group of the day( I shot 4 groups), at 100 yards. 39619
Here was the first group of the day, barrel warming up during this string. After this string I made a small windage adjustment 39620
Here was a "hot" barrel group fired after blasting away at some plates 39621
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.