View Full Version : Why COLT? Looking for Clear, Simple Explanation
Can somebody point me to a definitive, not too long, explanation I can use to answer the question, "Why a COLT AR?" I've got several friends who are hankering for and AR and keep going into the local LGS looking at their cheapo AR rifles. I keep telling them they need to give COLT a long hard look and try to explain why, but I know I'm not saying it all quite right.
Is there a thread or even a "perfect" single post that really sums it all up?
Thanks.
You already know all the TDP, etc, etc. so I won't bother with that.
For me, it came down to one thing...there were many opinions of DPMS. You'd find people praising and hating. And, it was always about build quality. For Colt, you'd find the same thing...except the argument was NEVER whether or not Colt was gtg. That fact was pretty much universally accepted.
Specifically, the 69/6720. There are others pretty much universally accepted, but they are usually more expensive when buying off the rack.
That and I'd never seen a "Colt is just as good as DPMS" thread.
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No, I don't know all the "TDP"
Simple: they can get a much better quality rifle for either the same amount of money spent, or maybe a little more. The materials used are of better quality and Colt exhibits much better workmanship than DPMS.
With that said, if they aren't going to listen to you, then don't worry about it. Let them spend their money. Chances are they won't shoot it enough to know the difference.
Can somebody point me to a definitive, not too long, explanation I can use to answer the question, "Why a COLT AR?" I've got several friends who are hankering for and AR and keep going into the local LGS looking at their DPMS rifles. I keep telling them they need to give COLT a long hard look and try to explain why, but I know I'm not saying it all quite right.
Is there a thread or even a "perfect" single post that really sums it all up?
Thanks.
(1) does not have to be a Colt per se and other brands have been recommended in addition to Colt in similar $ range (2) only covered 9,171,093,817 times here before here.
Search function is your friend. :agree:
(1) does not have to be a Colt per se and other brands have been recommended in addition to Colt in similar $ range (2) only covered 9,171,093,817 times here before here.
Search function is your friend. :agree:
Yes, I've used the search function, blah, blah, blah.
I'm looking for a post that really sums up precisely why COLT is still a great way to go for a first AR. Specifically, something explaining mil spec and other types of technical reasons why COLT is still the original owners of the mil spec stuff.
Any constructive responses would be appreciated.
boombotz401
05-22-16, 09:19
Colt bought the original design of the M4/AR15 from armalite and set the bar high as far as quality. They also held military contracts
That being said there are manufactures that are as good or better. I personally prefer midlength gas systems and steer towards BCM, though I do have a 6920
Colt noveske BCM Daniel defense are all top quality
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https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-114951.html
Grant's post on the first page may be what you are looking for
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Colt bought the original design of the M4/AR15 from armalite and set the bar high as far as quality. They also held military contracts
That being said there are manufactures that are as good or better. I personally prefer midlength gas systems and steer towards BCM, though I do have a 6920
Colt noveske BCM Daniel defense are all top quality
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks, totally agree re. BCM and DD. Not sure if a person can buy one of those for $875 or so, like they can a COLT LE6920.
Appreciate the input.
boombotz401
05-22-16, 09:26
Thanks, totally agree re. BCM and DD. Not sure if a person can buy one of those for $875 or so, like they can a COLT LE6920.
Appreciate the input.
I've never seen a 6920 for 875 but at that price I'd grab it and just swap the barrel to a middy, that's just me. The 6920 is an excellent rifle and you can't go wrong
https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-114951.html
Grant's post on the first page may be what you are looking for
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks I plowed through that thread (wading through the extraneous BS comments) and came across quite a few nuggets, but this one seemed to stand out above the rest:
The TDP is the benchmark that no rifle less than should be trusted, so Colt sets the standard. Some companies exceed the standard through the same development process that leads to Colt changing the TDP, other cut corners to save money.
So, let me see if I understand that I've been reading correctly.
TDP = Technical Data Package
Colt is a "benchmark" standard because their M4s use the TDPs and they are QC-ed by government inspectors to assure this. Therefore, there is that benchmark. You can rely on COLT to maintain those standards.
More Than ARs
Companies like BCM and DD choose to go above and beyond those benchmark standards and they probably have better QC and build quality, etc.
Less Than ARs
Companies like DPMS or other "budget" ARs do not even meet the benchmark of the TDP that Colt meets.
[It would be great to have a chart showing the "more than" and "less than" AR makers!
So, if I explain it this way to guys looking for their first AR, is that pretty much it?
Like I said, I've never bought less than a COLT but when buddies looking to buy their first AR walk into the LGS they see the cheapos on the shelves and think, "Why not?"
Yes, I've used the search function, blah, blah, blah.
I'm looking for a post that really sums up precisely why COLT is still a great way to go for a first AR. Specifically, something explaining mil spec and other types of technical reasons why COLT is still the original owners of the mil spec stuff.
Any constructive responses would be appreciated.
I quite fondly remember the time you would have been banned and castrated for not using the search option and posting your blah,blah blah stupidity.
I've never seen a 6920 for 875 but at that price I'd grab it and just swap the barrel to a middy, that's just me. The 6920 is an excellent rifle and you can't go wrong
Just bought one from Arms Unlimited for that price, free shipping. Ordered on a Monday, gun was shipped out on Wednesday. Link (https://www.armsunlimited.com/Colt-Law-Enforcement-M4-Carbine-p/le6920.htm).
Thanks I plowed through that thread (wading through the extraneous BS comments) and came across quite a few nuggets, but this one seemed to stand out above the rest:
The TDP is the benchmark that no rifle less than should be trusted, so Colt sets the standard. Some companies exceed the standard through the same development process that leads to Colt changing the TDP, other cut corners to save money.
So, let me see if I understand that I've been reading correctly.
TDP = Technical Data Package
Colt is a "benchmark" standard because their M4s use the TDPs and they are QC-ed by government inspectors to assure this. Therefore, there is that benchmark. You can rely on COLT to maintain those standards.
More Than ARs
Companies like BCM and DD choose to go above and beyond those benchmark standards and they probably have better QC and build quality, etc.
Less Than ARs
Companies like DPMS or other "budget" ARs do not even meet the benchmark of the TDP that Colt meets.
[It would be great to have a chart showing the "more than" and "less than" AR makers!
So, if I explain it this way to guys looking for their first AR, is that pretty much it?
Like I said, I've never bought less than a COLT but when buddies looking to buy their first AR walk into the LGS they see the cheapos on the shelves and think, "Why not?"
Yes, Colt is gtg 99.9% of the time. The others, BCM etc, are 99.9% of the time as well, and with all you can guaran-damn-tee that if it isn't, you'll be taken care of.
I'm fortunate enough to be able to afford it being unnecessary to research farther than that. If someone is not, they can get creative and get a rifle that will work for them at a lower price. But straight off the rack, 6920/6720, etc. are as low as I'd start.
JackFanToM
05-22-16, 10:19
Thanks I plowed through that thread (wading through the extraneous BS comments) and came across quite a few nuggets, but this one seemed to stand out above the rest:
The TDP is the benchmark that no rifle less than should be trusted, so Colt sets the standard. Some companies exceed the standard through the same development process that leads to Colt changing the TDP, other cut corners to save money.
So, let me see if I understand that I've been reading correctly.
TDP = Technical Data Package
Colt is a "benchmark" standard because their M4s use the TDPs and they are QC-ed by government inspectors to assure this. Therefore, there is that benchmark. You can rely on COLT to maintain those standards.
More Than ARs
Companies like BCM and DD choose to go above and beyond those benchmark standards and they probably have better QC and build quality, etc.
Less Than ARs
Companies like DPMS or other "budget" ARs do not even meet the benchmark of the TDP that Colt meets.
[It would be great to have a chart showing the "more than" and "less than" AR makers!
So, if I explain it this way to guys looking for their first AR, is that pretty much it?
Like I said, I've never bought less than a COLT but when buddies looking to buy their first AR walk into the LGS they see the cheapos on the shelves and think, "Why not?"
There is a chart, albeit it is a few years old, there is still a chart.
Gunnar da Wolf
05-22-16, 10:55
Not a huge fan of Colt due to their past antics to prevent the unwashed from possessing M16 compatible upper/lower combinations. But they are the benchmark for what is acceptable for the serious shooter. Hopefully neutered BCGs and weird pins are things of the past.
As for DPMS you can point out that they have been absorbed by the entity that purchased Remington, Marlin, Bushmaster and H&R. Shouldn't take your friends too much time with Google to decide on the proper course of action. DPMS made cute stuff that kinda sorta worked before they were purchased. Ownership by Freedom group hasn't helped any of those companies so far.
I find my life much simpler when I don't stick my nose into what my shooting friends want to buy. I shoot my guns, they shoot theirs. If they become serious AR shooters they will figure it out eventually. If they ask, I simply tell them what I shoot and let them make their own decisions.
JackFanToM
05-22-16, 12:33
There are 2 types of intelligent people. Smart people, which are those capable of learning from their own experiences, and wise people who are capable of learning through the experiences of others. I find I lean towards the former, but strive to be the latter. You can spend a great deal of wasted time and energy trying to assist the former, but in the end you simply will find they need to make the unwise purchase and learn the hard way.
There is a chart, albeit it is a few years old, there is still a chart.
If there is a chart showing current companies making ARs and where they fall on the spectrum of "meeting or exceeding TDP" and "not meeting TDP" I'd appreciate a link to it.
JackFanToM
05-22-16, 13:11
https://www.google.com/search?q=m4+chart+comparison&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS590US592&oq=m4+chart&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l3.8215j0j8&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#imgrc=cUdcCpW4BVu8rM%3A
Just used google
None of the images in that link provide a chart of current manufacturers and how there rifles fall on the "meets TDP or exceeds" or "does not meet TDP" ... that's specifically what I'm looking for.
Also, has anyone updated this chart since 2012?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rk0l_G1rQS_MLamXF-tN-9rnkGdpiDTC7b0By2CJYg8/pub?single=true&gid=5&output=html
Speaking of the TDP...was looking around for examples of it for the AR.
Is this what one would look like or is this merely a blueprint?
http://i.imgur.com/NqcVmUd.jpg?1
None of the images in that link provide a chart of current manufacturers and how there rifles fall on the "meets TDP or exceeds" or "does not meet TDP" ... that's specifically what I'm looking for.
Also, has anyone updated this chart since 2012?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rk0l_G1rQS_MLamXF-tN-9rnkGdpiDTC7b0By2CJYg8/pub?single=true&gid=5&output=html
There is no updated chart, I've looked. I just tell my friends who are thinking about buying an AR that with a Colt you know that it is built right with the correct materials and it will always work and hold up to abuse, with a lesser maker you are rolling the dice. My cousin didn't listen and bought a CMMG instead, his gas key bolts backed out within a few hundred rounds, then I told him, "Next time buy a Colt!"
Livefreeordie92
05-22-16, 13:37
I've found people that tend to show me products and ask what I think of them to be the ones more likely not to actually take advice given to them because they were never looking for advice to begin with, they're looking for someone who knows what they're talking about to give the product they want their stamp of approval because they've either A already bought said item, or B are dead set on it. Usually these people build or buy ARs with price as the number one focus and come back and tell me I over spent on my BCM because their fly by night special brand shot 250 rounds over three range sessions flawlessly.
On the other hand people who ask me about getting a quality AR first without anything specific in mind (whom I reccomend BCM, Colt, DD, LMT or Sionics to) are usually willing to get something decent and actually will listen to advice. Everyone who's bought a BCM, Colt or DD off my reccomendation has been nothing but happy with their purchases.
But.... At the end of the day, no matter what they buy, it's not my money so I don't really care either way. I'm set on quality rifles. It's always nice to see a friend pick up a good rifle and enjoy it, but even if they buy a POS, it's their money and not mine. And they still are against Hillary as much as any of us haha.
JackFanToM
05-22-16, 13:38
The chart is old (said that earlier) and I'm working off my iPhone. I recommend doing some research or not. The reality is even if the manufacturer uses the tdp, but has a history of shoddy qc, why would you spend that kinda money on a chance they got it right? We are talking a small amount of savings to do business with those that take no pride in their product. Your friends either get it or they don't
wildcard600
05-22-16, 15:10
None of the images in that link provide a chart of current manufacturers and how there rifles fall on the "meets TDP or exceeds" or "does not meet TDP" ... that's specifically what I'm looking for.
Also, has anyone updated this chart since 2012?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rk0l_G1rQS_MLamXF-tN-9rnkGdpiDTC7b0By2CJYg8/pub?single=true&gid=5&output=html
Probably because no one gives a shit enough anymore to spend time making a new chart.
Colt is a "benchmark" standard because their M4s use the TDPs and they are QC-ed by government inspectors to assure this
QC is Quality Control. QA is Quality Assurance. Inspectors cannot control quality, they can only assure the product meets specifications. Inspectors, whether in house or goverment are QA. The folks that fabricate, assemble and build the product are those that actually control quality. They are QC
More Than ARs
Companies like BCM and DD choose to go above and beyond those benchmark standards and they probably have better QC and build quality
The specifications of the TDP cannot be exceeded. An AR either meets the spec, or it doesn't. For example, a contractor building barrels must use a material that, not only meets the government's requirements, but it must be on the list of approved materials. If that contractor knows of, or develops a barrel material that is better or costs less, they cannot use it until they get the government to approve it.
While an AR that deviates from the spec may be better for some uses, but it doesn't mean it's better for what the government's intended to use
Less Than ARs
Companies like DPMS or other "budget" ARs do not even meet the benchmark of the TDP that Colt meets
This is so. Some of their processes are such that they do not have as good control of their quality
It would be great to have a chart showing the "more than" and "less than" AR makers!
Be careful what you ask for. You might get it
I've never bought less than a COLT but when buddies looking to buy their first AR walk into the LGS they see the cheapos on the shelves and think, "Why not?"
I have a friend that, after hours of picking my brains, ignored nearly all of my advice. He built an AR ans we shot it a few times, but not enough to uncover any failure points. I have another that thought a Kel Tec folding carbine should suffice. At that time, I was running a PSA carbine hard to see if it was durable enough. My friend, in the interest of finding out for himself, ran his Kel Tec alongside my PSA carbine, shot for shot. About the second or third outing, the Kel Tec broke in half and had to be replaced. The breakage surprised us both. You can say what you want about my friend picking a Kel Tec. At least he put it to the test.
In the long run, we all justify our purchases based on our own needs, wants and desires, whether they make sense or not. If they buy a lesser brand, so be it. Go shoot with them to see what happens and learn from the experience- and don't forget to enjoy the journey
I'm not even sure why this thread exists to be honest. The Colt is a standard and has been. As far trying to persuade people I know not to buy bottom feeder crap that fails to meet the MINIMUM specs, I don't have friends like that and if I did I wouldn't waste my time. They either listen and get it, or they don't.
As the owner of a 6920 and a veteran who carried a Colt in Iraq, I would buy a mid length BCM if I were in the market for my first AR.
Colt has(in my sample size of one) terrible customer service and embodies the phrase, "resting on one's laurels" when it comes to serving the market and product development.
But hey, at least Colt isn't a part of the Freedom Group yet!
I'm not even sure why this thread exists to be honest. The Colt is a standard and has been. As far trying to persuade people I know not to buy bottom feeder crap that fails to meet the MINIMUM specs, I don't have friends like that and if I did I wouldn't waste my time. They either listen and get it, or they don't.
I attempted to head it off and got the snarky response I got. It's a topic covered so many times here it's not funny.
There is no updated chart, I've looked. I just tell my friends who are thinking about buying an AR that with a Colt you know that it is built right with the correct materials and it will always work and hold up to abuse, with a lesser maker you are rolling the dice. My cousin didn't listen and bought a CMMG instead, his gas key bolts backed out within a few hundred rounds, then I told him, "Next time buy a Colt!"
Did you fix his gas key? :rolleyes:
In the long run, we all justify our purchases based on our own needs, wants and desires, whether they make sense or not. If they buy a lesser brand, so be it. Go shoot with them to see what happens and learn from the experience- and don't forget to enjoy the journey
Damn fine advice there.
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