View Full Version : The Race to Mediocrity
When will this crap stop?
North Carolina school board votes to stop naming valedictorians and salutatorians because it's "unhealthy competition"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3605580/North-Carolina-school-board-votes-stop-naming-valedictorians-salutatorians-unhealthy-competition-students.html
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Anddd I still hate people as a result.
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Work harder and study more and you can be exactly like everybody else.
This is such a good idea we should do this with professional sports. No MVPs, no Superbowl, everybody plays, everybody makes exactly the same amount of money. Everyone makes the team, things like drafts are unhealthy competition.
Let's start there first.
ALL competition is healthy.
There are two kinds of people in the world. People you don't want to be like and people who you want to beat.
No, you may not be Valedictorian and Yes, they get to make a speech. They might be the next Bill Gates or a gas pumper.
The point is....if you dig deep and find extra you can win the long game. Some people do it earlier in life than others But we are all the sum pf our parts and hardships.
Always stay hungry and angry.
Did nobody else watch Iron Eagle and Rocky 3 as a kid but me?
"And I still hate people as a result."
Skool will do that to you.
As for teachers--"I only steal money...but you, you steal peple's LIVES! (Three Fingered Jack, in "Zorro")
sevenhelmet
05-23-16, 21:11
I don't remember or GAF who my HS Valedictorian was. As far as I'm concerned, I have gone further (literally and figuratively) in life and have accomplished more even than they have. And at the age of 32, I'm only warming up. No school board can vote that away. Game over.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled outrage...
I don't remember or GAF who my HS Valedictorian was. As far as I'm concerned, I have gone further (literally and figuratively) in life and have accomplished more even than they have. And at the age of 32, I'm only warming up. No school board can vote that away. Game over.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled outrage...
It's not really about that. I also don't remember or care who the Valedictorian was. The issue is being recognized for your accomplishments and rewarded for your extra effort.
stupid in so many ways
in our school it was more about popularity than anything
but for sure as said the mediocracy is becoming stupid
let them fight for it and learn how to promote etc..
no stupid participation trophies etc...
sadly also heard about stopping ap classes !!! that IMHO would be really really stupid and sure it will sadly happen
when I was in school in the late 70s early 80s if someone was kinda a looser in the schoolastic way they were usually really good at welding or metal shop or wood shop etc..
our school even had small gas engines and body shop etc.. so you can learn anything and everything back then
as I hear now most all those options are gone !!!!
best program our HS had was a 2 year class
it was about buying a property and building a home on it so students learned everything from buying property getting permits grading foundations building plumbing electrical
basically every single step along the way !!! what a great opportunity
as others no idea who are valedictorians were in HS ? dont remember who was prom king of voted most funny I keep touch with maybe 3-4 folks from HS days the rest who cares
sevenhelmet
05-23-16, 21:42
It's not really about that. I also don't remember or care who the Valedictorian was. The issue is being recognized for your accomplishments and rewarded for your extra effort.
But... but... we can't DO that! Otherwise the people who didn't put forth that extra effort might feel slighted in some way! :rolleyes:
best program our HS had was a 2 year class
it was about buying a property and building a home on it so students learned everything from buying property getting permits grading foundations building plumbing electrical
basically every single step along the way !!! what a great opportunity
Man that would have been a fun class. I would have loved that. Useful too.
brushy bill
05-23-16, 22:15
I don't remember or GAF who my HS Valedictorian was. As far as I'm concerned, I have gone further (literally and figuratively) in life and have accomplished more even than they have. And at the age of 32, I'm only warming up. No school board can vote that away. Game over.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled outrage...
Now that is interesting. You don't know who they are, but even absent that little data point, you have literally & figuratively accomplished more (and are only warming up no less). They could be practically anyone (ipso facto, you have no idea what they accomplished, but you're better nonetheless). That's really a new kind of special! Glad I got to read that.
Now that is interesting. You don't know who they are, but even absent that little data point, you have literally & figuratively accomplished more (and are only warming up no less). They could be practically anyone (ipso facto, you have no idea what they accomplished, but you're better nonetheless). That's really a new kind of special! Glad I got to read that.
What he says may sound a bit arrogant, but let's look at it this way.
Some people peak way too soon in life. I knew a girl. All As. Got a free ride to college(and didn't go). Marrried her football player BF(who went to college but didn't last and was abusive). Everyone talked her up in her prime. Thought she was miss thing.
And she fell on her ass and never got up.
Some people measure life in experience, wealth, or possessions, or status.
But few in this world can say they've done something or had a hand in fate.
I think of two little monologues as totally brilliant. Roy Batty's speech before he dies and Mal Reynolds'speech to The Operative before he takes off in Serenity.
People who go through mid life Lester Burnham crises are people who never lived.
People who have truly lived go through evolutions.
Just virtue of him saying "I'm just getting started" speaks well to his mindset.
People who have it easy tend to be less resilient. But people who were told they were the "plebes" as youth wanted to get ahead out of revenge.
I was told once that Life as We know it is a test of failure and suffering. Get used to it.
sadly also heard about stopping ap classes !!! that IMHO would be really really stupid and sure it will sadly happen
In my town the AP classes are at the community college and the students getget college credit if they pass the courses. My daughter started senior year of highschool with 4 college credits. Next fall when she starts college she will already have 6 classes for her 2-year degree knocked out. Hopefully it is an arrangement both schools will keep going for a long time.
"best program our HS had was a 2 year class; it was about buying a property and building a home on it so students learned everything from buying property getting permits grading foundations building plumbing electrical; basically every single step along the way !!! What a great opportunity."
When I built my first house in 1978 the custom plans were drawn up by a high school student. He did a first class job; we invited him to come see the place upon completion and he was proud as punch. This low expectations crap is an insult to young men and women. But when most teachers are losers themselves, I guess they get a charge out of neutering the next generation as much as possible.
Bastards.
rattlesnake
05-23-16, 23:31
I don't remember or GAF who my HS Valedictorian was. As far as I'm concerned, I have gone further (literally and figuratively) in life and have accomplished more even than they have. And at the age of 32, I'm only warming up. No school board can vote that away. Game over.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled outrage...
Calm down skippy. You may be the town dog catcher, but who knows, the valedictorian may be the tow truck driver next county over.
Calm down skippy. You may be the town dog catcher, but who knows, the valedictorian may be the tow truck driver next county over.
lolz
I'm sorry but that's funny, I don't care who you are
Work harder and study more and you can be exactly like everybody else.
This is such a good idea we should do this with professional sports. No MVPs, no Superbowl, everybody plays, everybody makes exactly the same amount of money. Everyone makes the team, things like drafts are unhealthy competition.
Let's start there first.
I think this is their ultimate goal.
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ALL competition is healthy.
There are two kinds of people in the world. People you don't want to be like and people who you want to beat.
No, you may not be Valedictorian and Yes, they get to make a speech. They might be the next Bill Gates or a gas pumper.
The point is....if you dig deep and find extra you can win the long game. Some people do it earlier in life than others But we are all the sum pf our parts and hardships.
Always stay hungry and angry.
Did nobody else watch Iron Eagle and Rocky 3 as a kid but me?
Ha! Good point. Our Valedictorian's high mark so far has been as manager of a small town Pizza Hut, and now looks like Charlie Manson. But he did kick our asses in high school in anything that didn't require a jock strap.
Salutatorian however, well he's a Ph.D.
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I don't remember or GAF who my HS Valedictorian was. As far as I'm concerned, I have gone further (literally and figuratively) in life and have accomplished more even than they have. And at the age of 32, I'm only warming up. No school board can vote that away. Game over.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled outrage...
Yes, but as we see with all of the Bernie support from young people, shit like this will eventually creep it's way into other aspects of life to the extent that your accomplishments won't be recognized as better than any one else's.
Math inherently allows someone to be the winner. Every single time. American culture has ALWAYS been about the pursuit of first place. Hell, let's just forget the college football playoffs...the final four in basketball, etc. they make the post season, and we'll just give 'em a "magna cum laude" sash.
There. We're ALL the captain now.
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Yes, but as we see with all of the Bernie support from young people, shit like this will eventually creep it's way into other aspects of life to the extent that your accomplishments won't be recognized as better than any one else's.
Math inherently allows someone to be the winner. Every single time. American culture has ALWAYS been about the pursuit of first place. Hell, let's just forget the college football playoffs...the final four in basketball, etc. they make the post season, and we'll just give 'em a "magna cum laude" sash.
There. We're ALL the captain now.
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Cool. I'd like to start for a major NBA team. When do I get my check?
Moose-Knuckle
05-24-16, 04:11
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXm5hklbBsA
Work harder and study more and you can be exactly like everybody else.
Not really. According to the link in the OP:
The class of 2019 will still be recognized for their achievements, but likely using the Latin college system.
At most universities across the country, graduates are recognized for their high GPAs with the terms cum laude (GPA of at least 3.75 in a weighted system), magna cum laude (3.75 to 3.99), or summa cum laude (4.25 and above).
'We think it’s much healthier to set high expectations and high requirements for magna cum laude,' Benton said. 'The students now have a target that they can shoot for and if they achieve that they’re recognized for that.'
Yeah, in NC it's getting a lot of press but no traction. No one seems to have the stomach for it and there is very little support.
SomeOtherGuy
05-24-16, 07:50
Work harder and study more and you can be exactly like everybody else.
Oh c'mon, that's the exact idea of progressive socialism! What are you, some kind of right-wing libertarian nutcase?
Wouldn't you rather be Cuba than Texas?
This is such a good idea we should do this with professional sports. No MVPs, no Superbowl, everybody plays, everybody makes exactly the same amount of money. Everyone makes the team, things like drafts are unhealthy competition.
Next time you see a Bernie supporter, ask them if they like any sports teams or play any sports. If they say yes, go ape@#$ on them about how evil and capitalist sports are.
I don't remember or GAF who my HS Valedictorian was. As far as I'm concerned, I have gone further (literally and figuratively) in life and have accomplished more even than they have. And at the age of 32, I'm only warming up. No school board can vote that away. Game over.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled outrage...
I think you missed the point and not by a little. I remember who our VD was and who our SD was simply cause they were very good friends of mine. Had I not been friends with them is be just like you. Wouldn't remember nor GAF. However, it's not about that. Never has been and never will be. It's about instilling a sense of competition in people and a desire to be the best at the things you try. The idea that we should all strive to be average is RETARDED. Not everyone is born with the internal drive that maybe you have. For those as a society we try to instill some desire to excel via competition. Some do it through sports and some do it through academics, and others through art. When you put the BS PC touchy feely crap in play (everyone gets a trophy, don't keep score, don't make others feel bad...) you kill that drive. For young and immature folks having that external shiny trophy as a motivator is pretty important. For older more mature folks the external motivators change from trophies to other items (cars, houses, boats...) or better yet they turn towards more intrinsic rewards. What do you think happens after 12 or so years of not making anyone feel bad by being better? Do you think those kids will just magically turn on their internal drive and go on with life or do you think you're going to get more of the we need safe spaces, and can't handle an opposing view point or can't figure out what a deadline is types?
Whether it's a class rank or Latin college system or what not those kids need to be pushed to excel and the ones that do need to be rewarded.
Honestly, if I was in high school, I wouldn't worry. They still get acknowledged. At the end of they day, your reward will be money and self worth and pride, the latter of which no one can take away. Once you realize that, the rest is just fluff. If the title being gone makes you not work hard, you weren't going to go as far anyway. Just my opinion of course.
Parents should be fostering an environment of success. This is much more important than anything at the school.
JackFanToM
05-24-16, 11:52
Not really. According to the link in the OP:
The class of 2019 will still be recognized for their achievements, but likely using the Latin college system.
At most universities across the country, graduates are recognized for their high GPAs with the terms cum laude (GPA of at least 3.75 in a weighted system), magna cum laude (3.75 to 3.99), or summa cum laude (4.25 and above).
'We think it’s much healthier to set high expectations and high requirements for magna cum laude,' Benton said. 'The students now have a target that they can shoot for and if they achieve that they’re recognized for that.'
Using this metric, is the equivalent of putting a cap on a bonus. Once the cap is achieved (4.25 gpa) where is the motivation to keep pushing yourself. Use the bonus example, if I place a 3k cap on bonus, and you need to achieve $425k noi to reach cap, why would you push beyond $425k?, now if I do an additional 1% of noi paid for each $1k above $425k...now we are talking.
Using this metric, is the equivalent of putting a cap on a bonus.
I was simply pointing out that people were responding to the headline and not to the content of the news report at the link in the OP. The school wasn't doing away with honors altogether and treating everyone the same, but going to a different system.
What is the best honors system? Beat mes as I wasn't an honors student. I was too impatient for school and wanted to get to work. But yet I achieved way more success in my career than most of my classmates in their careers due to my own internal motivation.
Cum Laude, Magna, and Summa were in effect when I was in HS in the 80s. We also had the salutatorian and valedictorian. I don't know why people need to feel compelled to paint a turd, rename it, and put it out as a fresh, new idea.
sevenhelmet
05-24-16, 13:34
I think you missed the point and not by a little...
I understood the point precisely. And I agree that competition is very important. The counterpoint that I was attempting to make in my earlier post was that being valedictorian doesn't motivate every student. I personally was motivated by prospects for follow-on education, which were motivated in turn by the job I wanted, so I made all that happen. As such, I didn't care about being valedictorian, other than to congratulate the person that got it. Most high schoolers I've known were motivated by factors other than grades, usually a job or a particular college/major. All that being said, I disagree with the NC board's decision. I was just pointing out that it's not the death of competition in high school. If anything, I've observed that high school seems MORE competitive now than it did when I graduated in 2001.
Not really. According to the link in the OP:
The class of 2019 will still be recognized for their achievements, but likely using the Latin college system.
At most universities across the country, graduates are recognized for their high GPAs with the terms cum laude (GPA of at least 3.75 in a weighted system), magna cum laude (3.75 to 3.99), or summa cum laude (4.25 and above).
'We think it’s much healthier to set high expectations and high requirements for magna cum laude,' Benton said. 'The students now have a target that they can shoot for and if they achieve that they’re recognized for that.'
Which will chill the competition for first place, because we ALL made MCL. However many it turns out to be.
They damned sure know who is first and last in a class at Ivy League and Service Academies.
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Using this metric, is the equivalent of putting a cap on a bonus. Once the cap is achieved (4.25 gpa) where is the motivation to keep pushing yourself. Use the bonus example, if I place a 3k cap on bonus, and you need to achieve $425k noi to reach cap, why would you push beyond $425k?, now if I do an additional 1% of noi paid for each $1k above $425k...now we are talking.
This. Right. Here.
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Which will chill the competition for first place, because we ALL made MCL. However many it turns out to be.
Are you saying the numeric ranking is never released? If so, I didn't understand it that way.
Are you saying the numeric ranking is never released? If so, I didn't understand it that way.
That's the way I understood. There will be a gpa range outlined for the Latin Honors, anything beyond is moved to the next higher with no specific number one.
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Outlander Systems
05-24-16, 18:57
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CH5uZwhUkAEDXb2.jpg
and we'll just give 'em a "magna cum laude" sash.
There. We're ALL the captain now.
They don't get mine, I worked for it. Ooops!!! Did I hurt someone's feelings? :shout:
Using this metric, is the equivalent of putting a cap on a bonus. Once the cap is achieved (4.25 gpa) where is the motivation to keep pushing yourself. Use the bonus example, if I place a 3k cap on bonus, and you need to achieve $425k noi to reach cap, why would you push beyond $425k?, now if I do an additional 1% of noi paid for each $1k above $425k...now we are talking.
That is the same narrow-vision that says profit is the only reason folks try to grow their business. Maybe you wouldn't push beyond 425, but not all of us are like that and not all jobs are like that. Thank fvcking goodness. Otherwise we'd still be wondering why the freaking apple fell down - Newton wasn't paid to figure that out.
To the point - motivations differ, one size doesn't fit all.
JackFanToM
05-24-16, 21:26
That is the same narrow-vision that says profit is the only reason folks try to grow their business. Maybe you wouldn't push beyond 425, but not all of us are like that and not all jobs are like that. Thank fvcking goodness. Otherwise we'd still be wondering why the freaking apple fell down - Newton wasn't paid to figure that out.
To the point - motivations differ, one size doesn't fit all.
No one said they did, but as an employer I find constant carrot drives the cart ever forward. I would love to live in your utopia, where everyone is motivated internally towards success, but that place doesn't exist. FYI bonuses don't motivate me, being the best at what I do, and proving to the world that being ethical, moral, and following the laws you can still drive the competition into the ground, that motivates me.
Unfortunately, if you fool yourself into believing that static reward systems work on the average American, well you just haven't been paying attention to the world around you.
No one said they did, but as an employer I find constant carrot drives the cart ever forward. I would love to live in your utopia, where everyone is motivated internally towards success, but that place doesn't exist. FYI bonuses don't motivate me, being the best at what I do, and proving to the world that being ethical, moral, and following the laws you can still drive the competition into the ground, that motivates me.
Unfortunately, if you fool yourself into believing that static reward systems work on the average American, well you just haven't been paying attention to the world around you.
Nope, eyes pretty wide-open. I just understand there are many motivations for achievement. Money is obviously one of the biggies for most people. I do feel sorry for those who labor only for money and not for the feeling of accomplishment their work brings, they are missing out.
But then again, I'm a simple shit, happy, but simple.
JackFanToM
05-24-16, 22:00
The point being, this isn't about you, it's about "Everyman", and the vast majority of "Everyman" is driven by the constant carrot. Do you really believe that most people will strive for the intrinsic reward?
My boss loves to say "it's not always about the money". Well, he makes WELL into mid 6 figures. Like Eddie Murphy said, "bills gettin' paid like a motherfvcker"...so, yeah...f'n A...that's probably right. I'll guaran-damn-TEE you at some point it WAS about the money for him.
I'm still a few K shy of it not being about the money...
:)
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The point being, this isn't about you, it's about "Everyman", and the vast majority of "Everyman" is driven by the constant carrot. Do you really believe that most people will strive for the intrinsic reward?
As 'me' I do tend to look at things from my point of view.
However, as I noted, that is the same narrow-vision that says profit is the only reason folks try to grow their business which, at least to me, seemed to intimate that I felt there were other reasons rather than that the 'constant carrot' being the ONLY reason.
Lost in this shuffle is the fact that the statement I referred to was reference your post about well, if a 4.25 gets you magna cum laude, there is no motivation to push further. The pursuit of excellence is a motivator for many folks. I also understand that nearly as many probably are motivated to do only enough to get by.
Unlike you, I do not feel that those who pursue excellence solely for economic gain are the 'vast majority' as you stated.
Always stay hungry and angry.
Wise words.
JackFanToM
05-25-16, 15:34
Depends on the pursuit, in the work force in modern America or academia I'd say the majority do not pursue excellence to any degree, so to get results you are required to motivate them. In regards to pursuing excellence at a hobby/past time then yes you are correct. In the event you truly believe that the pursuit of excellence in itself is the norm in our schools currently...well to that I ask why the constant decline in the US' education system? My observation, simply put, is that capping the "ultimately top title for achievement" will not garner improved results nor make those that pursue them any better off.
Outlander Systems
05-25-16, 15:39
If you love what you do; you've never worked a day in your life.
:)
Nope, eyes pretty wide-open. I just understand there are many motivations for achievement. Money is obviously one of the biggies for most people. I do feel sorry for those who labor only for money and not for the feeling of accomplishment their work brings, they are missing out.
But then again, I'm a simple shit, happy, but simple.
JackFanToM
05-25-16, 16:21
I love what I do, and I use it to make a difference in my industry, and to many that feel they aren't given opportunity. I have a different perspective on managing people. I believe it is the managers job to create career minded vs job minded individuals. It is our duty to teach, encourage, and create opportunities. That any company's biggest asset is their employees, and thereby the culture you create and team member development are far more important to the bottom line than shopping the lowest price on goods you procure.
I believe you learn better how not to manage than you can teach how to lead, as leadership comes from caring and showing, not demanding and punishing. I believe the intrinsic rewards outweigh the monetary ones.
Unfortunately, when hiring line level employees I find all to many that only care about what is in it for them, and they lack a feeling of team. As long as they stick with it long enough for them to see "the right way to do things" most can be set on a career path, but unfortunately the ones that are too jaded from past experiences, or believe the world owes them something far out number those that are willing to make a simple leap of faith.
If you love what you do; you've never worked a day in your life.
:)
I haven't worked to damn many days in the last 40 years. This is from my retirement letter, submitted today:
'I am one of those people who has been lucky enough to have a career that has been not only meaningful, but also thoroughly captivated my creative energies.'
I haven't worked to damn many days in the last 40 years. This is from my retirement letter, submitted today:
'I am one of those people who has been lucky enough to have a career that has been not only meaningful, but also thoroughly captivated my creative energies.'
You retired? Congrats. Please stay healthy. Please stay around. You've got at least one buddy who looks forward to your words. Even if its just on M4C
If you love what you do; you've never worked a day in your life.
:)
Sometimes you fall out of love. Sometimes you learn to love again. In time
You retired? Congrats. Please stay healthy. Please stay around. You've got at least one buddy who looks forward to your words. Even if its just on M4C
30 days notice. Going to do my best. Remember we are going to do lunch someday.
In the picture posted in the link of the N.C. students, I see that out of this big group, only three kids are African American. This small representation of blacks is the school board's concern. The other Asian minority kids don't count. I spent 30 years as a teacher and know what I'm talking about. This school board does not give a shit about unhealthy competition. Been there. Saw it.
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