Some Pistol Talk...

[Bulletdog]

I took my first class in 1996 with a Sig 226. It was a 2 day General Handgun class, and there were a lot of different makes and models up and down the line. My instructors showed us all the "in and outs" of each of them. By the end of the 2 days, I saw the value of the Glock and decided to get a 17 to try out and see if I liked it. I did.

I took a lot more classes and I shot the hell out of the 17. They nick named me "Tommy Gun" after some rapid fire strings. At a Gunsight class (I got to meet Col. Cooper in the Sconce…) we were shooting drills on steel with one of those 3' tall "pepper popper" targets as the final target of the string. It was cut in half and whomever's half hit the ground first was the winner of the head-to-head shooting string. I went up against a guy with a Glock 21. I outran him by a mile, but when we got to the final split-in-half pepper popper, my shot went "plink" and my half began falling in slow motion. About a second later his final shot went "kerplunk" and that target dropped like a rock. He won. Next string I literally pushed my half down with multiple rapid fire shots, living up to my nick-name. Plink-plink-plink-plink-plink-plink-plink… No one said you could only shoot the final target once.

This got me thinking about "stopping power". C'mon. You guys remember the arguments/discussions we all had over this in the 90's… I picked up a Glock 21 of my own, and made it my main in shooter for a long time and many classes. I liked it and handled it well. Picked up a 30 too, and shot the snot out of that one as well. I became dissatisfied with the speed of the gun during rapid fire drills and I wasn't thrilled with the results from one-handed, off-hand drills either. In addition, concealability wasn't the best with either of those fatties.

About this time the .40 was coming out and getting a lot of press. I gave it a go. "Stopping power" similar to a .45, but in a package that was lighter, faster and smaller like my old 17. I shot the 22 for a couple of years and then switched to the 23 for concealablility once I got my out-of-state CCWs all lined up. I shot that 23 for many years after that, and was happy. Then a friend of mine, a member of this forum, comes along and explains the whole "stopping power" caliber debate to me again. I considered all this with an open mind. I pulled out the old 17, and a 19 too, and went to the range to compare how I liked them back to back with my beloved 23. HOLY COW! My group sizes shrank by a third and speed increased by a third. Plus I had more rounds to work with in the mag. Increased speed, accuracy and round count trumped any lingering doubts I had about "stopping power". I've been shooting the 19 for almost 10 years now, while the others collect dust in the safe.

Last week, I did my civic duty and took a bunch of new and interested shooters to the range. We'd been discussing the different makes, models and calibers, so I brought an assortment for them to try out. It felt good to shoot the Sig, the 22, 23, 21 and 30 again. Like visiting old friends. They all shot fine and rounds went where I wanted them to, when I wanted them to. All had a good time and learned a lot. Then, I wanted to run a few drills on my own (showing off…) with my usual 19. Wow! What a difference. I just shoot the 9mm so much better. Smoother, faster, more accurately. I was not expecting to notice such a difference, but the paper and the timer told the story. When shot back to back like that, the difference was very noticeable.

Anyhow. That's my story. Nothing groundbreaking or shocking. Just gun conversation for a gun forum. I like my 9mm Glocks.

[sevenhelmet]

Thanks for sharing your story, Bullet.

I think the best advice I have gotten on the caliber front is that a pistol is a compromise no matter what the caliber, so use the one you shoot the best. I never took to .40, it just feels harsh to me and I don't shoot it well. I started off with a .45, and I still like that caliber. But I've adopted 9mm as my main pistol caliber due to increased speed and capacity over .45 for the same accuracy. It's cheaper to practice with too, which counts for a lot.

[HeruMew]

Thanks for sharing Bulletdog,

Even more thanks for taking the time with some new shooters to educate them and give them a variety to experience.

It's that kind of awesome kindness that brings more into the fold of the Gun Community, building more responsible firearm users/handlers; hopefully owners.

Thanks for sharing!

[Arik]

Thanks for sharing! I too have the 22 and 21.....two of them in fact but they mainly hang out in the safe. Their prices were too good to pass up.

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[WickedWillis]

Great story Bullet. While I haven't been training as long as you, I can really sympathize with your story. I was one of the ".40 because Cops, and 9mm is too weak!" crowd when I first got into handguns. My first was a Gen 2 Glock 22, and I hated how snappy it was, and I shot it like trash. I then transitioned to a Springfield XDM in 9mm, because I assumed the fault was with Glock and not with my awesome skills, and I had countless problems with it. I sold it, and traded into a well used Gen 3 Glock 26.

I shot that Glock 26 better than anything else in my life at that point, but I was still silly about being a "Glock guy". I have flirted with other lines, but when I bought my first Glock 19 Gen 4, I just simply realized that I am a Glock guy, and I need to stop fighting it. I am more efficient and comfortable with Glocks than just about every handgun I pick up and shoot. So I too, love my 9mm Glocks. It's been an expensive journey for me just to realize that :dirol:

EDIT: I still love shooting .45's (G21, HK45, G30), I am just way too invested in 9mm Glocks to really train and focus on that caliber.

[MStarmer]

I keep chasing that "unicorn" pistol that graces the cover of each new magazine. Alas, very few compete with my G27 for time actually carried and shot. When I started training at my first class in 1990 I started with a D&L custom 1911 (in .45 of course). But as much as we all love 1911's they're hard to carry. When the Glock 19 came out I had to have one and carried and shot that thing over 15k before selling it to a co-worker. Carried G22/23/27 without issue. Gave the M&P a chance but I'm down to one (and a Shield), PPQ, 229, XDm and the latest a Sig P320. I find fault with just about all of them. M&P trigger and grouping, PPQ slide shape and complicated detail stripping, 229 size and weight, XDm horribly over complicated with too many do-dads (can't rack the slide without grip safety being depressed mainly). The Sig 320 is the one gun that has really given my Glock edc a run for the money. The ability to shoot this thing well, change grip frames, slide lengths and calibers at will is huge to me. I've got about 4k thru one and I shoot it better than just about anything I own. In fact my wife and daughter liked it so much they both have one now too.

With all that being said my absolute only "one-gun" choice, choice for end of the world or harshest life would still be a Glock 19 with good steel sights and a dozen mags.

[Baldness]

I've had an expensive tour around the handgun world as well. Started with a gen 3 glock 23, then got a sig p245 (never should have sold that one) Then briefly a 7 shot smith and wesson L frame snubbie (stupid) A pps (excellent weapon) a springfield champion operator but have now settled on a gen2 glock 19, and a glock 43 for when I can't carry the 19. Just can't find better pistols in my opinion than 9mm glocks. They are reliable tools

[samuse]

I've run the gamut of Glock, Sig, Beretta, and custom 1911s.

At the end of all that, I'll keep my P226 for a bedside HD pistol, and a Glock 17K, 43, or Sig P239 for carry.

[sevenhelmet]

I just put money down on a P226. Picking it up in a couple of weeks. :cool:

[Straight Shooter]

I had fun yesterday at the range, shooting a steel pop up with both 9mm & 45acp. The 9 just barely moved it...the 45 rocked it back and to either left or right, so that after 3-4 shots I had to reset it. Just an observation.

[Bulletdog]

I've shot a few 1911s. My boss has a Para Ordnance P12 that he loves. This is my take on the 1911 style guns: Best trigger ever made for a handgun. Period. Nothing else even close. But… I find the rest of the gun heavy, clunky, and not ergonomic for me. I don't like the grip angle, the grip safety, or any of the other extra stuff that you don't find on a Glock. And I can't forgive the single stack magazine. That is just not enough rounds for me to be comfortable, and I really don't want to carry a bunch of extra mags. With a loaded 19 and a 17 mag as a spare, I've got 33 chances to solve any problem. I'd have to carry 5 spares to do that with the "single stack wonder". That would take up a lot of space on my belt...

I love my Sig, but the whole DA first pull, followed by SA, just doesn't suit me. Also, after the other day, I never realized what a long trigger reset it had. Its as bad as the Springfields in that regard. Way too long of a reset.

I've got an HK. I like it okay, but again, it just doesn't "feel" as good as a Glock in my hand.

I just shoot the Glocks better, and I shoot any of the 9mm Glocks the best. I fault no one who has a preference for something else. I picked up a Walther at the SHOT show a couple of years ago that I really liked the feel of. Not sure, but I think it was a PPQ, or a PPM, or maybe PPK… Does that sound right? If Glock didn't exist, I would have bought at least two of those. I refrained, because I just don't need it and my Glocks do everything I need a handgun to do. I know its almost blasphemous in some circles, but I actually like the stock Glock sights too. I've tried all sorts of after market sights and I don't care for any of them. I was able to get better 25 or 50 yard groups with some of the finer sights, but that really slowed me down at the close ranges where I would be using a pistol. Kind of like putting ghost rings on a shotgun. Sure I could get better 100 yard slug hits with a fine aperture ghost ring sight, but for "rolling thunder" drills on steel at 10-15 yards those ghost rings slowed me wayyyy down. Give me a bead sight on my shotgun, and a crude, wide, easy-to-pick-up-at-speed stock Glock sight on my pistol.

I really don't modify my Glocks at all. The only thing I do is dremmel a little material of the corner of the mag release since I shoot "wrong-handed". (I can't even use the term "left-handed" anymore due to today's political climate…) Hold your Glock left handed and you see where the corner of the mag release digs into your middle finger? Imagine what that will do under the recoil of a 400 round per day week long class. I shave that corner off and smooth it out. I've tried the three pound connectors a few times, and I really don't feel much of a difference, and my groups don't print any different either. I truly feel that Gaston did all the work for me. I like it as is, straight out of the box.

[Uprange41]

Good story. Always interesting to see peoples' paths to their current place.

I'm firmly in the 9mm camp as far practicality goes, but my gen 4 G21 is one of my favorites, and once there's a light on the front and 18 rounds on board, it handles very well, very close to the 19 (I'll have to compare splits, but subjectively, it's a ridiculously soft .45). But the big difference is, I feel like a laser with it. The trigger is the best Glock trigger I've felt, the gun fits like a glove, and I've got a lot of time with it. The result is a gun that I don't have to work to shoot well with.

I know I could run a similarly-equipped 17 faster, and it'd weigh a bit less to boot, but what can I say... I like the 21 too much to prioritize replacing it as my go-to full size.

[Coal Dragger]

I had fun yesterday at the range, shooting a steel pop up with both 9mm & 45acp. The 9 just barely moved it...the 45 rocked it back and to either left or right, so that after 3-4 shots I had to reset it. Just an observation.

For shooting some games a larger heavier bullet is a big advantage. You don't see many 9mm's being used in bowling pin matches, or in games where a target has to be knocked over. The few times I have shot bowling pins I found a definite advantage with the .45 ACP over the 9mm, when the pin has to be cleared off the back of the table that bigger heavier round imparts more momentum to the pins resulting in an overall faster time.

I've also used a .454 Casull on a steel spinning target which dented it badly, and ripped it out of the ground. I was impressed at the power, not real happy with what it did to my cheap .44 Magnum rated steel target. The same loads and heavier bullets will hammer the crap out of a Caldwell "Magnum" gong target, they hit hard enough and swing the gong violently enough that the AR550 steel gong will eventually chew through the soft steel S hooks that attach the plate to the chains, which is very frustrating if you don't have spares and you are having a good time hammering the steel. Remind me to not get hit with a 335gr bullet trucking along at over 1500fps, they appear to be capable of doing some very nasty things.

I love this video, wish I was supernatural like Jerry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7W-5QE3jzw

[tacticaldesire]

I just put money down on a P226. Picking it up in a couple of weeks. :cool:

I'll be doing the same pretty soon. Co-worker is selling his for $500. Its the stainless model in 9mm. He bought it new two years ago. I really like Sigs but I'm not the biggest fan of DA/SA on any gun but for the price I'm not complaining.

[Arik]

I've shot a few 1911s. My boss has a Para Ordnance P12 that he loves. This is my take on the 1911 style guns: Best trigger ever made for a handgun. Period. Nothing else even close. But… I find the rest of the gun heavy, clunky, and not ergonomic for me. I don't like the grip angle, the grip safety, or any of the other extra stuff that you don't find on a Glock. And I can't forgive the single stack magazine. That is just not enough rounds for me to be comfortable, and I really don't want to carry a bunch of extra mags. With a loaded 19 and a 17 mag as a spare, I've got 33 chances to solve any problem. I'd have to carry 5 spares to do that with the "single stack wonder". That would take up a lot of space on my belt...

I love my Sig, but the whole DA first pull, followed by SA, just doesn't suit me. Also, after the other day, I never realized what a long trigger reset it had. Its as bad as the Springfields in that regard. Way too long of a reset.

I've got an HK. I like it okay, but again, it just doesn't "feel" as good as a Glock in my hand.

I just shoot the Glocks better, and I shoot any of the 9mm Glocks the best. I fault no one who has a preference for something else. I picked up a Walther at the SHOT show a couple of years ago that I really liked the feel of. Not sure, but I think it was a PPQ, or a PPM, or maybe PPK… Does that sound right? If Glock didn't exist, I would have bought at least two of those. I refrained, because I just don't need it and my Glocks do everything I need a handgun to do. I know its almost blasphemous in some circles, but I actually like the stock Glock sights too. I've tried all sorts of after market sights and I don't care for any of them. I was able to get better 25 or 50 yard groups with some of the finer sights, but that really slowed me down at the close ranges where I would be using a pistol. Kind of like putting ghost rings on a shotgun. Sure I could get better 100 yard slug hits with a fine aperture ghost ring sight, but for "rolling thunder" drills on steel at 10-15 yards those ghost rings slowed me wayyyy down. Give me a bead sight on my shotgun, and a crude, wide, easy-to-pick-up-at-speed stock Glock sight on my pistol.

I really don't modify my Glocks at all. The only thing I do is dremmel a little material of the corner of the mag release since I shoot "wrong-handed". (I can't even use the term "left-handed" anymore due to today's political climate…) Hold your Glock left handed and you see where the corner of the mag release digs into your middle finger? Imagine what that will do under the recoil of a 400 round per day week long class. I shave that corner off and smooth it out. I've tried the three pound connectors a few times, and I really don't feel much of a difference, and my groups don't print any different either. I truly feel that Gaston did all the work for me. I like it as is, straight out of the box.
It was PPQ or maybe PPX. The PPK is a small 380 or 32acp. The classic James Bond gun and probably in the hands of every German officer in a a ww2 movie.



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[LDM]

I keep chasing that "unicorn" pistol that graces the cover of each new magazine.
Oh man, did that statement resonate.

There are so many good choices today it is bewildering. Even within a given class of pistol (i.e. DA/SA, striker, 1911, etc.) there are usually several good choices.
One lesson I think I may have just re-learned: better to stay within one class. I can pick up a Sig P320 or Walther PPQ and handling and manual of arms is substantially the same.
On a whim I recently picked up a Walther P99. Fine pistol; unique in that it is striker fired and can be run DA/SA, as well as its unique AS mode which is like a long stroke, set trigger SA (sorta like a H&K LEM... sorta). But working it in DA/SA has resulted in the start of some muscle memory confusion that I do not think mixes well with my striker pistols.
Ergo: pick a class of pistol that works for you, stay with it, and get as good at it as you can with it.

[Gunnar da Wolf]

The few things learned from the FBI bullet test protocols were that you need adequate penetration and buried down in there was that a handgun bullet typically only damages about a pound of flesh. Take a pound of burger and decide how that needs to be stretched to fit in a torso and create "stopping power" worthy damage around the vital organs...

9mm will do it with good marksmanship and ammunition. Most people shoot the 9mm very well with a modicum of training and practice.

I've carried a 1911 since the early '80s and it's an extension of my hand. I've never learned to like the Glock line of pistols, they're accurate and reliable but point funny for me. Plus my thumb needs something to do during the draw stroke. I reload .45acp with cast bullets very cheaply and going to the reloading shed gets me away from watching the Press try to elevate Hillary to sainthood on the boob tube. .45 isn't a quantum step above 9mm but it whats in my magazines (when I'm not carrying a S&W Mountain Gun).

[sevenhelmet]

I'll be doing the same pretty soon. Co-worker is selling his for $500. Its the stainless model in 9mm. He bought it new two years ago. I really like Sigs but I'm not the biggest fan of DA/SA on any gun but for the price I'm not complaining.

Nice. I'm going with a MK25. I've always liked the model, and finally have an opportunity to get one.



I love my Sig, but the whole DA first pull, followed by SA, just doesn't suit me. Also, after the other day, I never realized what a long trigger reset it had. Its as bad as the Springfields in that regard. Way too long of a reset.


That's fair enough. Have you ever tried a Sig with the SRT (Short Range Trigger) upgrade? It's a drop-in sear that supposedly greatly improves the reset. They come stock on some models now (not the MK25, so I had to buy the kit separately). I'm happy to report back with findings in a few weeks.

[Firefly]

This can be an interesting topic.

I was first trained on the .45 ACP, a S&W gen 3. A single stack. In the 21st century. Yep. I got decent with it but when I got turned onto Glock it seemed so much easier than the Smith. Less finicky. Less crap that breaks(mine broke and nobody believed me. It took several letters and a formal meeting before it got serviced and all I heard was "gee I guess it really WAS broke and the nightsights ARE dead....DUUUUUH").

So I stuck with .45. Here lately I'd rather use a 9MM. I'll always like the .45 because it is fun to shoot but technology for 9MM really has made it a more practical caliber. I have a .40 just to have. If I couldn't carry a 9mm, I'd be more apt to carry a .357 sig.

But 9mm pretty much is the 60% cartridge.

One day, I'll go to gunsite.

The biggest problem is that people treat calibers like a religion. If you say "hey I'm carrying 9mm now", fat, redneck philistines will chuckle and snort and go on about how it won't kill anybody or break the skin. How it has no stopping power.

Some of these are people who should know better.

I used to try to explain velocity, cavitation, expansion, traumatic blood loss, the merit of whatever makes the subject lose blood and circulation the fastest is probably best, shot placement on vital organs like heart brain and lungs.

Then I got into pointless debates with people I didn't care about.

So whenever people ask me now what I carry, I just say "a gun". When asked what kind, caliber, etc I say "one that works".

It was told to me once, and I believe it, "You are the sum of what you shoot the most".

I will say that I have my "killin'" guns and then I have stuff just because I wanted it and it makes me happy.

[HeruMew]

Thanks for the wise words Firefly.

I haven't had to deal with to many caliber battles, never aimed to start my own, but if i sense one about to happen, I may just utilize your wording on that.

[Bulletdog]

That's fair enough. Have you ever tried a Sig with the SRT (Short Range Trigger) upgrade? It's a drop-in sear that supposedly greatly improves the reset. They come stock on some models now (not the MK25, so I had to buy the kit separately). I'm happy to report back with findings in a few weeks.

I'm one of those people that is leery of "messin' with stuff", so no I have not ever tried that. I absolutely love the SSA trigger in my AR, but I have this weird mental thing about modifying handguns the same way. I built the ARs all myself, but I buy my pistols as is off the shelf…


In any case, yes please, report back about the SRT. I need to keep an open mind about learning and trying new stuff and your report will encourage me.

[Bulletdog]

Ergo: pick a class of pistol that works for you, stay with it, and get as good at it as you can with it.

Good advice here, I think.

[Bulletdog]

If I couldn't carry a 9mm, I'd be more apt to carry a .357 sig.


I've got zero experience with the .357 sig.

Share your thoughts/experience with the caliber?

[Firefly]

I've got zero experience with the .357 sig.

Share your thoughts/experience with the caliber?

Sure. It's not quite a .357 magnum level of velocity but pretty close. Moreso than in some loadings of +p or +p+ 9mm.

Having gotten to do some shooting through windshield training, it does have less deviation than other auto calibers. But you still want to take trajectory of windshield as a factor. Shooting inward your rounds go low, outward they go high.

It is snappy, but no more than a .40. Loud.
The rounds aren't cheap but have a flat trajectory. Depending on model of handgun, there can be some accelerated wear, so like with revolvers you may want to get a .40 barrel for practice and .357 barrel for carry.

I have a Glock 31. The load I prefer is the HST.

I'm no expert but a normal .357 sig seems to have more conistency than some +p+ simply because there really is no SAAMI spec.

Really, I just got it as a BUG/vehicle weapon for its penetrative qualities.

It's not a shoot everyday gun, but every so often I will run a box through it. Pretty much point and click with no real deviation from practicing with a .40 barrel. Sharper report and tighter groups at 25 yds.

I wouldn't say it is a perfect caliber and for 60% of any shooting one would do, 9mm is pretty much the better caliber.

But if you need penetration and nigh magnum velocity; it is worth it to invest in a .357 sig barrel. Magazines are interchangeable as well with .40.

I prefer the base standard Glock 31 full size, but if I were to really go all out for this caliber, I'd get a Glock 35 and .357 barrel.

On another note, in an aforementioned post I alluded to going through hell and high water to get my duty Smith fixed. That issue was with the dept and armorer. All dealings I've had with S&W as a private person speaking directly to company have been positive. All questions answered and I was treated well for a personal weapon that needed tweaking.

[Uprange41]

Sure. It's not quite a .357 magnum level of velocity but pretty close. Moreso than in some loadings of +p or +p+ 9mm.

Let me put on my ammo nerd voice...

Actually, some of the hotter 357 SIG loadings can hang pretty well with 357 Magnum, so long as you keep the comparison to gun velocities from guns with similar weights/sizes. So a G33 with Underwood can compare well with similar loads from a J-frame, and a G32 can do very well against some 2-3" revolvers. At least with 125gr loads, and I'd love to see comparisons with 147gr vs. 158gr. And you get all the benefits of auto vs. revolver. It certainly falls off once you start comparing full-sized revolvers and heavier loads, but for the smaller guns, it makes sense to me.

I admit, I'm pretty far up 357 SIG's ass... I don't own one, I'm actually pretty indifferent to it as a defensive cartridge, but damn its velocity numbers and penetration qualities appeal to the nerd in me.

[Coal Dragger]

I had a .357 SIG in a P229 DAK. I hated the pistol (DAK trigger didn't work for me at all), but loved the cartridge. Shoots flat, very accurate for me, lots of velocity. Maybe I should have Bar-Sto make a barrel for my P226 X5, that could be a neat combo with a 5" barrel to get more velocity out of the round. I'd need to buy the $$$ adjustable rear sight for the X5 if I did that, although I've been seriously considering it anyway.

I've also always wanted a 9X23 Winchester, even more velocity than the .357 SIG and perfect for use in a .45 ACP length magazine in something like a 1911. Too bad no one offers them anymore.

[Mysteryman]

I'm one of those people that is leery of "messin' with stuff", so no I have not ever tried that. I absolutely love the SSA trigger in my AR, but I have this weird mental thing about modifying handguns the same way. I built the ARs all myself, but I buy my pistols as is off the shelf…


In any case, yes please, report back about the SRT. I need to keep an open mind about learning and trying new stuff and your report will encourage me.

I'm not Sevenhelmet but the SIG SRT trigger is well worth the money. The reset is very short and quite distinct in both feel and sound, SIG got it right.

MM

[Arik]

I've heard good things about the 357 Sig from cops on other forums but for me the price of ammo is a turn off.

My main caliber is 9mm and I carry a g19 but I'm always searching for that unicorn gun dispite the fact that the G19 is just about perfect for me as an all around all year carry. I still manage to buy different guns to compare against the 19. Sig 228, HK P2000. Each one is good but neither quite matches the G19. Whether it capacity, weight or trigger. Along the way I managed to pick up other guns and other calibers. Most have been traded off for various reasons. Some were just too good to pass up. So now, even though my main focus is on the 9mm, I probably have equal amount of all 3 calibers plus some 38spl and 357 mag

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[Bulletdog]

I'm not Sevenhelmet but the SIG SRT trigger is well worth the money. The reset is very short and quite distinct in both feel and sound, SIG got it right.

MM

Thank you. I'm going to look into this. This would fix one of my main complaints about the Sig.

[WickedWillis]

I'm not Sevenhelmet but the SIG SRT trigger is well worth the money. The reset is very short and quite distinct in both feel and sound, SIG got it right.

MM

I second that, it improve an already incredible stock trigger IMO and makes for speedy, easier followups.

[Coal Dragger]

I'll third the recommendation for the short reset trigger. Very very nice upgrade to the P series guns.