Long range shooting and "accuracy" getting better with distance?

[Eurodriver]

Not sure if this is the correct place for this, but...

I frequently go to a 1000yd range. Lots of Fudds out there. Most are complete idiots. They setup their $600 .308 AR topped off with an NC Star optic and go "Never been here before, but that 1000yd gong gonna ring!" and end up having to move to the 75yd berm after firing dozens of rounds with no idea as to the whereabouts of their impacts. I want to be clear that this is not the type of person I am speaking about.

The other group are seasoned long distance shooters. Think $6,000 BR guys that have $1,000 radar units to measuring bullet velocities over the span of 150 yards shooting at 10" gongs at 1000 yards in 15mph full value gusts. Guys that are in their 60s and regularly compete in 1000 yard competition, and have been staring behind a rifle scope for the better part of half a decade. Most are educated professionals and generally keep to themselves.

On many, many occasions I have heard these folks talk about certain calibers/bullets/loads being increasingly accurate the further you shoot it.

They say that while most precision shooting is in terms of angular measurements (i.e. the MOA circle gets wider the farther you go) there are also linear measurements and a bullet's effect on the harmonics of the bore can affect the way a round travels linearly. Essentially, if you have a rifle that you fire a 1" group at 100 yards with, it could theoretically shoot a 2" group at 300 yards, or a 3" group at 500 yards. These group sizes are both smaller than the 100 yard group in relation to the distance fired whereas a normal rifle would generally fire MOA groups similar in size to what it is at 100 - normally increasing slightly due to the effects of wind and velocity deviations.

Has anyone heard anything like this? I am just having trouble wrapping my head around it, as logically thinking it out would say if you have rounds impacting 1" apart at 100 yards, if you twice that distance it is going to have to be at least 2" apart. This, to me, simply seems like a mathematical certainty.



To be clear, they are not talking about the following scenario:
Rifle A Shoots 2 MOA at 100 yards, 2 MOA at 300 yards and 3 MOA at 600 yards.
Rifle B Shoots 1 MOA at 100 yards, 1 MOA at 300 yards, and 5 MOA at 600 yards.

Obviously, Rifle A "gets more accurate" than Rifle B the further you go out. That is a separate issue.

I hope my post makes sense.

[Kansaswoodguy]

I've heard of it and experienced it. I do not however agree with the conclusion that the bullets become more accurate with distance. I think it's more likely that it's a mental thing. I have no hard data to back up my conclusion. What I think is going on is we the human element are much more focused when shooting at longer ranges than we are at shorter ranges. Just my 2 cents

[Leaveammoforme]

I've always heard it as "Going to sleep", as in when the projectile works its own wobble out.

Imagine throwing a football that isn't a perfect spiral in the beginning of its flight but then it becomes a spiral on its own.

Different calibers "Go to sleep" at different ranges. I believe most calibers go to sleep before a 100 yards which is why you don't hear about this effect very often.

I know for a fact my 338L goes to sleep somewhere between 100 and 200 yards. I can put tighter groups on a 200 yard target than I can a 100 yard target.

[masan]

Going to sleep is correct. Minimal to no yaw/wobble/wiggle timey wimey BS.

Short range Benchrest shooters want their bullets to "go to sleep" as close to the muzzle as possible. This generally means flat based hand swaged custom bullets.

Long range shooters prefer boat tailed bullets to get that same stability at greater range to minimize wind drift and velocity loss from yaw as the bullet slows.

Talk to some F class competitors, they don't sweat it when their rifle only shoots .5 MOa at 100, beacuse the load performs best at 1000.

Try taking that same .5 MOA rifle/load to a Short Range IBS match, and you will be so far down the score sheet you may as well take up golf ;)

Then take a Short Range IBS rifle/load that can shoot teen aggs for 25 shot Group matches or 250-20X(+) score matches to a 1000 yard match, realize it cannot possibly keep up, go home, and cry.

Then put a 1000 BR rifle up against a 1000 yard F Class rifle... There is a reason the BR targets are smaller.

That said, this is all dependent upon the shooting platform.


TLDR: Yup, it is real, has a lot to do with the cartridge/load. Only really going to show up in tuned custom competition rifles.

edit: Need to add that this is also extremely dependent on the bag/rest setup. Free recoil shooting, front rest and bags that track straight back. Always going to be harder to shoot from the prone than off of a solid concrete bench.

[wilson1911]

I believe this is why some people run gain twist barrels. It helps the bullet stabilize faster. An added effect sometimes is an increase in speed also.

Shooting long range is more about being able to read the wind more than anything.

As far as accuracy is concerned, I run an OCW test to find the node, then use a MS to find my lowest sd within the node I am tuning. This makes a consistent elevation load.

[Eurodriver]

I'll be damned. I honestly thought the old guys were just crazy old guys.

Going to sleep would certainly explain things perfectly, however.

[T2C]

masan hit the high points.

I only have one long range rifle (700+ yards) in the stable, which is chambered in .308 Winchester and set up to shoot F-TR class. Factory 175g Match ammunition shoots 1-1/4" groups at 100 yards and easily shoots sub 2" groups at 300 yards. 500 yard groups under 5" are possible under good conditions. I don't have a paper 1,000 yard target on hand, so I won't comment on group size at that distance.

When I was learning the intricacies of shooting precisely past 600 meters, one of the people I trust told me the 175g Match bullet takes some time to "go to sleep" after it exits the muzzle and that my 100 yard groups were not a good indicator of how the projectile will perform at 300, 500 and 1,000 yards. What he told me rings true.

[markm]

I'll be damned. I honestly thought the old guys were just crazy old guys.

Going to sleep would certainly explain things perfectly, however.

Yep. When we were foolish enough to mess with VLDs, we'd have to shoot groups at 200 yards or more to let the bullet go to sleep.

[Molon]

Going to sleep is correct.





Bryan Litz says otherwise and he has publicly offered to pay the plane-fare for anyone willing to travel to his shooting range and prove that to be true. So far, not one single person has taken him up on his offer. So here's here your chance to prove him wrong.



The first target pictured below shows a measured 5-shot group that was fired by Bryan Litz at a distance of 100 yards on his “shoot thru” target set-up. The group has an extreme spread of 2.46 MOA.





https://app.box.com/shared/static/eltryg2a1rdwf1dowyxmom1q7tgi3nsy.jpg





The next target shows the impact at 300 yards of the exact same 5 shots that were fired at the 100 yard target. The extreme spread for the resulting 5-shot group at 300 yards is 2.49 MOA.





https://app.box.com/shared/static/aqzgm5qyamhptmicz69i1pabgysm547d.jpg



....



William C. Davis has reported on tests conducted at Frankford Arsenal on this subject matter also. Using machine-rested, bolt-actioned, heavy test-barrels, one such test that was conducted on an indoor-range involved firing EIGHTEEN 10-SHOT GROUPS on targets at 100 yards and 300 yards. The average extreme spread for the groups at 300 yards was 3 times as large as the average extreme spread of the groups at 100 yards.



.....



In another test that was conducted at Aberdeen Proving Ground using .30 caliber match-grade ammunition, thirteen 10-shot groups were fired simultaneously through paper screens at different distances. The mean radius for the groups at 300 yards was 1.0”. The mean radius at 600 yards was 2.1”.



....

[T2C]

Bryan Litz is definitely someone to listen to when talking about ballistics and it would be great to talk with him in person about bullet weights, profiles, neck tension, etc.

I was told by other F Class shooters that some bullets settle down soon after leaving the muzzle and some take some distance to settle down. I was told the same thing by a Bench Rest shooter I respect. I was also told it did not apply to all bullet weights and profiles. I track every shot fired out of my rifle and what the other F class shooters told me appeared to be true. The 168 BTHP shoots tighter groups than the 175g BTHP out to 200 yards in my rifle and at 300 yards groups are dead even. The 175g BTHP seems to perform better than the 168g BTHP past 800 yards. The 155 Scenars group well at 100 yards and 600 yards with similar MOA measurements.


What bullet weights and profiles were used for the tests Molon? 155g Scenars? 168g BTHP? 175g BTHP?

[masan]

Bryan Litz says otherwise and he has publicly offered to pay the plane-fare for anyone willing to travel to his shooting range and prove that to be true. So far, not one single person has taken him up on his offer. So here's here your chance to prove him wrong.

I am well aware of Bryan's testing in regards to non linear dispersion. I have signed copies of all of his books because I think that his work is incredibly valuable.

I do not own any rifles that exhibit non linear dispersion. I did not claim that and as such lack the neccessary tool to accept Bryans challenge.

What I will say is that I have personally experienced many 1000 yard benchrest competitors with rifles that shoot poorly (think .75 moa) at 100 yards, but consistently shoot the same rifle/load at 600 in the .4 range, and in the .5-.6 range at 1000. Seemed like an appropriate way of answering Euros question.

My own short range benchrest rifle (100,200,300) will shoot results that mimic the Benchrest Results that Bryan used from one of the Supershoots (at least if I am not having a shitty day). As that rifle is not used to compete at ranges past 300 I have not had reason to shoot it farther.

There is no question that this phenomenon is at least perceived to exist. I have been following his (Bryan) threads on sites like longrangehunting in regards to this matter because I am excited to see the eventual conclusion.

As of this point I still believe that the point at which a bullet achieves its greatest stability during its flight directly affects its ability to "buck the wind". There is always air moving between your muzzle and the target, and depending on that distance, the part of a bullets flight where it is least stable will have the greatest affect on its ultimate trajectory.

Does this ideally explain the idea of non linear trajectories? No, not really. At least not to me.

That said, something, somewhere, has caused some rifles to group better at long range than they do at short range. If it were just something I had heard then I would discount the phenomenon. That I have seen it in person, from skilled shooters, leads me to believe that something is causing it. The current thinking is that it is in regards to "the bullet going to sleep" and I answered Euro as such.

It may not be the bullet/rifle/load at all. It could ultimately be a mental issue, as was one of the more prevalent ideas offered up in this regard.

[markm]

The 175g BTHP seems to perform better than the 168g BTHP past 800 yards.

That's something different. The 175s have a different angle on the boat tail, and will go trans-sonic much better. I've shot 168s that scatter anywhere in a 10 yard radius at 1000 yards.... they just (in my gun) fan out like crazy after losing super sonic velocity.

[T2C]

I am well aware of Bryan's testing in regards to non linear dispersion. I have signed copies of all of his books because I think that his work is incredibly valuable.

That said, something, somewhere, has caused some rifles to group better at long range than they do at short range. If it were just something I had heard then I would discount the phenomenon. That I have seen it in person, from skilled shooters, leads me to believe that something is causing it. The current thinking is that it is in regards to "the bullet going to sleep" and I answered Euro as such.

It may not be the bullet/rifle/load at all. It could ultimately be a mental issue, as was one of the more prevalent ideas offered up in this regard.

That is a possibility in some cases, but I don't believe in all cases. I observed the phenomenon, then asked experienced shooters why the Federal 175g BTHP Match shot 1-1/4" at 100 yards, then shot sub 2" groups at 300 yards. I would have guessed my 300 yard groups would be closer to 4", but that was not the case. I was still learning and had no preconceived ideas about the phenomenon. I made the observation, then afterward was told the bullet had not traveled enough at 100 yards to "go to sleep".

You being a Bench Rest shooter has my attention. Most of what I have learned to date is from experienced F Class shooters and a few Bench Rest shooters. If there is another explanation, I would love to hear it.

[masan]

I feel like I am doing a poor job of explaining myself well. Something is getting lost between my brain and my keyboard.

Like I said before, I have been following Bryan Litz's work regarding non linear dispersion since 2014 when he first started bringing his findings and challenge to the attention of shooters.

Prior to that, I had "drank the coolaid" that non linear dispersion was the result of certain bullet profiles which performed better at either short or long range. I was going off of the evidence that I had at my disposal. Every short range benchrest shooter I knew was using hand swaged flat base bullets made by a handful of dedicated benchrest bullet makers. The long range benchrest shooters were using hand swaged boat tail bullets from dedicated long range benchrest bullet makers.

The big difference, flat base versus boat tail. The general thinking, which seemed to be apparent on the target, was that the flat base bullets shot inside the boat tails at short range (100,200,300) and that the boat tails smoked the flat bases beyond that. Nothing really surprising there.

So where did I and a lot of others get experiences of non linear dispersion? Mostly when the long range shooters would work up a load at 100 before taking it out to range for tuning. As in getting it on paper. They would shoot at 100, get a sub moa group and proceed to run the gun out to 600 for tuning. Once in a while, someone would report that at 600 the load (unchanged from 100) was so close to tuned already that they were only waiting for match day to fine tune it to conditions.

This is where I personally have witnessed non linear dispersion. Please bear in mind, mos shooters in BR load at matches. Most use a handful of powder measures, 3-4 different brands, all set up the same way. So if someone today started shooting a 30BR and wanted to know what powder charge was best, every 30BR shooter would be able to give an answer that would get the new shooter damn close to tuned, usually withing one to one half number (the measures are numbered for reference, not grains).

So if Joe Shmoe builds a new Dasher for 1000 yard, works up a load based off of what all the other Dasher shooters are using, tests at 100, gets a sub moa group, runs out to 600 and shoots a smaller sub moa group, then you have the most common (in my experience) instance of non linear dispersion. This is where I have understood the idea of "the bullet going to sleep" to be from. It does not matter that the load is not perfectly tuned for match day, nor that it is a load from others that performs at range. Ultimately, what matters is that at 100 yards, said load shot a sub moa group that was larger than the sub moa group shot at 600 with the same load.

After reading Bryan Litz's work regarding non linear dispersion, I began to wonder whether or not it was the bullet causing this. There is no doubt that non linear dispersion happens. There is, however, doubt in my mind that it is the bullet.

It could be the shooter having a mental conditioning to try harder at range versus merely getting on paper at 100. It could be the parallax adjustment on the shooters glass. I just don't know.

While I am no longer completely sold on the idea of "bullets going to sleep" I do believe that non linear dispersion is a real thing.

My first post in this thread was an attempt to provide a simple answer to the OP in regards to what he had heard. I think it is fantastic that we have gotten deeper into this, as it is always an issue that floats around in the back of my mind.

[rjacobs]

I honestly thought the old guys were just crazy old guys.


Never trust a 90 year old man on a skeet range with a 28gauge...

[T2C]

Thank you masan. I wasn't trying to put you on the spot. I shot iron sight rifles for over 35 years and started shooting scoped rifles about 10 years ago when the eyesight really started going south. Bench rest shooters are a good resource for anyone who is trying to gather data on selection of reloading components, reloading and ballistics to get that extra edge when shooting both iron sight and scoped rifles competitively. I used some of what I learned about reloading from Bench Rest shooters when loading match ammunition for shooting High Power.

I think shooting scoped rifles reveals that the tiny details matter when selecting bullet weight, profile, etc. There is no substitute for experience and it sounds like you are hands on.

[rjacobs]

This thread made me think of something and I am wondering if Molon might chime in at some point(probably not).

His testing is generally done at 100 yards. I believe his 223/556 control round is generally the 52g SMK, which I believe is a flat base bullet vs. all the other SMK bullets which are boat tail. I wonder if it being flat based gives it the accuracy edge at 100 yards where it might become gyroscopic-ally stable before a boat tail bullet would? The flat based bullets should have a different center of gravity than a boat tail and thus fly a little differently or lose their wobble faster, but not hold that same stability to distance.

[Horned Toad]

IIRC “going to sleep” is when the bullet transitions from spinning on its geometric center while in the barrel to spinning on its center of gravity in flight. I would think that as the quality of bullets has consistently gotten better over the years, this would appear less. I would also think, the heavier the bullet, the longer this would take. I would bet that only your precision shooter would be the ones that might see this.

[masan]

Thank you masan. I wasn't trying to put you on the spot.

No worries! I just wanted to make sure that I was giving the most accurate summation of my own experience.

[Molon]

This thread made me think of something and I am wondering if Molon might chime in at some point(probably not).

His testing is generally done at 100 yards. I believe his 223/556 control round is generally the 52g SMK, which I believe is a flat base bullet vs. all the other SMK bullets which are boat tail.





The Sierra 52 grain MatchKing does have a boat-tail. The Sierra 55 grain BlitzKing that I often use for a control load also has a boat-tail.




https://app.box.com/shared/static/9bimjbmr5of6pwvn4tl1ye19fh2ect86.jpg













. . . it might become gyroscopic-ally stable before a boat tail bullet would?




A bullet that is fired from a barrel that has a twist rate that gives the bullet a gyroscopic stability factor greater than 1.0 is gyroscopically stabilized the instant that it leaves the barrel.

Long/heavy boat-tail bullets can shoot just fine at a distance of 100 yards.




https://app.box.com/shared/static/wktkw3cndntfwectgja2zygiai9vyj91.jpg




https://app.box.com/shared/static/caq50zgmm8fnbwnmq1uydfa759pjrs52.jpg










https://app.box.com/shared/static/bt7rfuu7w8nbas0somt21txdg5zlq0eu.jpg




https://app.box.com/shared/static/jgegan4qnhsujjw2na1dky12u0xk4ry9.jpg







https://app.box.com/shared/static/s9ehfsykh4jf2i92e10174qea5oebonx.jpg




https://app.box.com/shared/static/6xxo3v4z4xciednjvw61kvs9qyhactq2.jpg




https://app.box.com/shared/static/0311rb7hc64c90e82hypj94qkvjxaxyh.jpg




.....

[Bimmer]

I'm not trying to bait you (Masan) or beat you up. I'm just presenting my read here...



So if Joe Shmoe builds a new Dasher for 1000 yard, works up a load based off of what all the other Dasher shooters are using, tests at 100, gets a sub moa group, runs out to 600 and shoots a smaller sub moa group, then you have the most common (in my experience) instance of non linear dispersion...

I can think of a dozen reason why this would happen. None of them involve the bullet "going to sleep."



I do believe that non linear dispersion is a real thing.


It could ultimately be a mental issue...

Bingo. It's "real" like transubstantiation. (Look it up.) People believe it. People have "experienced" it. But there's no empirical evidence for it.

[T2C]

This thread made me think of something and I am wondering if Molon might chime in at some point(probably not).

His testing is generally done at 100 yards. I believe his 223/556 control round is generally the 52g SMK, which I believe is a flat base bullet vs. all the other SMK bullets which are boat tail. I wonder if it being flat based gives it the accuracy edge at 100 yards where it might become gyroscopic-ally stable before a boat tail bullet would? The flat based bullets should have a different center of gravity than a boat tail and thus fly a little differently or lose their wobble faster, but not hold that same stability to distance.

I don't know about flat based .223 bullets, but a local shooter has had a great deal of success with .30 caliber flat based bullets at 600 yards. He shoots sub MOA groups at 600 yards with 110g and 125g bullets with great regularity.

[taliv]

I believe in most cases it is "aim small miss small". People areoften shooting smaller targets or better targets at distance.
Or people have the diopter and parallax on their scope set wrong which I'd guess is probably 75% of shooters, even "good" ones. (Scopes are more sensitive to parallax at closer ranges)

[rjacobs]

One thing that i know is an issue, a mental issue, is at close ranges ~100 yards, and guys are shooting groups they have scopes dialed to max magnification and you can see an ant on the target. You throw in the natural movements of the gun due to breathing, heart beat, etc... that are amplified and peoples attempt to pull the trigger in the exact same 1mm x 1mm POA every time as the cross hairs move around the target leads to pulled shots, yanked triggers, etc... causing less than great accuracy.

Move out to 500 yards and you now cant see the ant on the target as your aim point so you relax quite a bit, focus more on the shooting fundamentals(away from breaking the shot on your 1mm x 1mm POA) and you magically shoot tighter...

I have to generally purposely not dial scopes to max at 100 yards in order to avoid this and have shot some of my better groups at 100 using low power(6x in my case on my long range precision guns 6-24). I focus more on fundamentals vs. anticipating the cross hairs and trying to break the shot just right.

[masan]

I'm not trying to bait you (Masan) or beat you up. I'm just presenting my read here...




I can think of a dozen reason why this would happen. None of them involve the bullet "going to sleep."

No worries.

I agree that there are many reasons for for what I am describing. In most cases, at least the ones I am referencing, the shooter is very skilled. It is definitely a possibility that they and I are all assuming that the shooter is treating the 100 yard target the same as the 600. May not be the case.

[masan]

deleted for double post

[masan]

One thing that i know is an issue, a mental issue, is at close ranges ~100 yards, and guys are shooting groups they have scopes dialed to max magnification and you can see an ant on the target. You throw in the natural movements of the gun due to breathing, heart beat, etc... that are amplified and peoples attempt to pull the trigger in the exact same 1mm x 1mm POA every time as the cross hairs move around the target leads to pulled shots, yanked triggers, etc... causing less than great accuracy.

Move out to 500 yards and you now cant see the ant on the target as your aim point so you relax quite a bit, focus more on the shooting fundamentals(away from breaking the shot on your 1mm x 1mm POA) and you magically shoot tighter...

I have to generally purposely not dial scopes to max at 100 yards in order to avoid this and have shot some of my better groups at 100 using low power(6x in my case on my long range precision guns 6-24). I focus more on fundamentals vs. anticipating the cross hairs and trying to break the shot just right.

For 99.9% of rifles/shooters, this is very true.

In the cases I am referring to, for Benchrest shooters, this actually is very unlikely. Outside of hunter class which is imited to 6x scopes, everyone uses 36 power or up, all shooting is free recoil. This means that the rifle is not touched, with the exception of the trigger, during the firing process, in an effort to remove all possible influence on the rifle.

I know that this is not a benchrest oriented sight, and outside of this thread I have respected that, but here I feel it is the best way to get my idea across. Hopefully that is not rubbing anyone the wrong way!

[rjacobs]

In the cases I am referring to, for Benchrest shooters, all shooting is free recoil. This means that the rifle is not touched, with the exception of the trigger, during the firing process, in an effort to remove all possible influence on the rifle.

Please dont take offense to this, but WTF...

How is that even "fun"?

I mean, to each their own and what not.

Sorry, thread drift...back on track to sleeping bullets and gyroscopic stability and yaw axis and shock waves...

[T2C]

I went to the range this morning and shot the bolt gun with the Nightforce scope. It was a humid, zero wind day. I took extra care to adjust the parallax properly and place my head in the same spot on the stock at 100, 200 and 300 yards. I fired Federal 175g Match using a bipod and bean bag. I clean the barrel every 200 rounds and the log book indicates 60 rounds were fired since the last cleaning.

There was zero wind and no direct sunlight to cast shadows on the targets. My 100 yard group was 1-3/8", the 200 yard group was 1-7/8" and the 300 yard group was 2-5/8". I could have been better with bipod preload, but I definitely could have been worse.

As I was packing up to leave, a Bench Rest shooter arrived and I asked him to fire 5 round groups at each distance using his bench rest equipment. He used some rig mounted to a board that he anchors to a concrete bench with sandbags. The rest had elevation wheels and levels on it and he spent a lot of time preparing to shoot each group. He had several wind flags set up and a laptop computer he referred to every few minutes. I looked over his shoulder several times to see if he was reading a novel on his laptop, because it took him what seemed like forever to fire 15 rounds. He fired a 1-1/8" group at 100 yards, a 1-3/8" group at 200 yards and a 1-13/16" group at 300 yards. I multiplied his 100 yard group by 3 and came up with 3.375". I asked him why his 300 yard group was smaller than 3.375" and he shrugged his shoulders. When he started reciting math formulas that could only be understood by a university Physics professor or a NASA employee, he lost me.

I am a flinching, trigger yanking iron sight shooter who has no explanation for the phenomenon. Any ideas?

[Failure2Stop]

From my experience, I think that smaller than predictive groups at distance have less to do with the projectile and more to do with the application of focused fundamentals by the shooter and correct parallax.

[Molon]

I asked him to fire 5 round groups . . . Any ideas?








William C. Davis has reported on tests conducted at Frankford Arsenal on this subject matter also. Using machine-rested, bolt-actioned, heavy test-barrels, one such test that was conducted on an indoor-range involved firing EIGHTEEN 10-SHOT GROUPS on targets at 100 yards and 300 yards. The average extreme spread for the groups at 300 yards was 3 times as large as the average extreme spread of the groups at 100 yards.



.....



In another test that was conducted at Aberdeen Proving Ground using .30 caliber match-grade ammunition, thirteen 10-shot groups were fired simultaneously through paper screens at different distances. The mean radius for the groups at 300 yards was 1.0”. The mean radius at 600 yards was 2.1”.



....

[T2C]

From my experience, I think that smaller than predictive groups at distance have less to do with the projectile and more to do with the application of focused fundamentals by the shooter and correct parallax.

F2S, I'll concede that my fundamentals are not that good, the weakest point in the weapon system is the operator. What I failed to mention was that prior to shooting groups with 175g Match, I fired a 5/8" group at 100 yards with 168g Match. The difference in 168g and 175g group sizes at 100 yards and the size of the 175g group at 300 yards has me stumped. I would have expected a much larger group at 300 yards with the 175g Match.

Molon, what bullet weights and profiles were used in the tests?

[masan]

Please dont take offense to this, but WTF...

How is that even "fun"?

I mean, to each their own and what not.

Sorry, thread drift...back on track to sleeping bullets and gyroscopic stability and yaw axis and shock waves...

The fun is in the precision. Hard to describe the shooting, I know I am doing a poor job of it. That said, where is no other shooting discipline that can acheive the same level of accuracy and precision.

The following is a link from last weeks Super Shoot, one of the biggest and best group shoots in the nation.
http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?95179-Super-Shoot-Results

Look at the different results.

The Kelbly range is a challenging place to compete.

Those aggs you are seeing are for 5 targets, five shots on each target. And the top competitors are shooting 0.1 aggs at 100, .2 at 200. Where else can you compete and see 0.1 aggs for 25 shots at 100?

Thats the fun for me.

[masan]

As I was packing up to leave, a Bench Rest shooter arrived and I asked him to fire 5 round groups at each distance using his bench rest equipment. He used some rig mounted to a board that he anchors to a concrete bench with sandbags. The rest had elevation wheels and levels on it and he spent a lot of time preparing to shoot each group. He had several wind flags set up and a laptop computer he referred to every few minutes. I looked over his shoulder several times to see if he was reading a novel on his laptop, because it took him what seemed like forever to fire 15 rounds. He fired a 1-1/8" group at 100 yards, a 1-3/8" group at 200 yards and a 1-13/16" group at 300 yards. I multiplied his 100 yard group by 3 and came up with 3.375". I asked him why his 300 yard group was smaller than 3.375" and he shrugged his shoulders. When he started reciting math formulas that could only be understood by a university Physics professor or a NASA employee, he lost me.

First thing, did this guy claim to be a BR competitor?

Because everything you describe makes me think he was yanking your chain. The setup sounds like it would violate half of the rules for a Match. Front rest and rear bag, thats all we use.

The laptop thing is something only a handful of guys in the south were doing, and they have mostly figured out that what they were trying doesn't work and have subsequently gotten away from it.

A 1-1/8 in group at one hundred? Good God.

The rule of thumb that I and the BR competitors I shoot with use is that if the rifle and load won't hold a .2 then you have problems. A .3 usually means glass/rings. Anything above that is a crown/barrel issue. If it is throwing shots then the bedding/glue job was likely botched, the cases weren't prepped right, the trigger is touching something it shouldn't, etc.

Even at 300, a 1-13/16 group is a dumpster fire.

If your local club holds sanctioned IBS or NBRSA matches, I would encourage you to check one out, see what a real set up looks like. Stand behind the line for a few relays/matches and see how a match goes (one target is one match, a shoot will feature 5 matches). Then head over to the weeping wall (target wall) and see what those rifles will shoot.

[T2C]

First thing, did this guy claim to be a BR competitor?

Because everything you describe makes me think he was yanking your chain. The setup sounds like it would violate half of the rules for a Match. Front rest and rear bag, thats all we use.

The laptop thing is something only a handful of guys in the south were doing, and they have mostly figured out that what they were trying doesn't work and have subsequently gotten away from it.

A 1-1/8 in group at one hundred? Good God.

The rule of thumb that I and the BR competitors I shoot with use is that if the rifle and load won't hold a .2 then you have problems. A .3 usually means glass/rings. Anything above that is a crown/barrel issue. If it is throwing shots then the bedding/glue job was likely botched, the cases weren't prepped right, the trigger is touching something it shouldn't, etc.

Even at 300, a 1-13/16 group is a dumpster fire.

If your local club holds sanctioned IBS or NBRSA matches, I would encourage you to check one out, see what a real set up looks like. Stand behind the line for a few relays/matches and see how a match goes (one target is one match, a shoot will feature 5 matches). Then head over to the weeping wall (target wall) and see what those rifles will shoot.

The Benchrest shooter that I asked to shoot my rifle is an acquaintance and he was shooting my rifle with my ammunition, which accounts for the large groups he fired. The rifle is not a Benchrest rifle and he shot factory 175g Hornady Match. The rifle is an OEM Savage 10FCP with a Nightforce NXS 5-22x50 scope. Anything under 1 MOA is good to go in my opinion, which makes a Benchrest shooter cringe.

I went through my logbook and reviewed my data. Most rounds have linear dispersion as far as I tracked them, but not Federal 175g Match.

150g FMJ Winchester white box-Linear dispersion out to 500 yards.
155g Hornady A-Max-Linear dispersion out to 600 yards.
Federal 168g BTHP Match-Linear dispersion out to 800 yards.
Federal 175g BTHP Match-NON-LINEAR DISPERSION from 100 yards to 300 yards.
Federal 175g BTHHP Match-Linear dispersion from 300 yards to 1100 yards.

I am not a Benchrest shooter and don't have a mathematical or logical explanation for the performance of the Federal 175g Match. When friends who shoot out to 1,500 yards mentioned the "go to sleep" concept, I took them at their word, due to their ability to shoot sub MOA groups out to 1,500 yards.

[masan]

As I was packing up to leave, a Bench Rest shooter arrived and I asked him to fire 5 round groups at each distance using his bench rest equipment.

T2C, I would like to apologize if I offended you, that was not my intention.

The above quote from your earlier post led me to believe that the BR shooter was using his equipment. No where did you mention him shooting those groups with your rifle, as such I responded to the posted group sizes shot by him thinking that they were from a BR rifle.

Again, seems like we got our signals crossed here, no disrespect intended.

[T2C]

T2C, I would like to apologize if I offended you, that was not my intention.

The above quote from your earlier post led me to believe that the BR shooter was using his equipment. No where did you mention him shooting those groups with your rifle, as such I responded to the posted group sizes shot by him thinking that they were from a BR rifle.

Again, seems like we got our signals crossed here, no disrespect intended.


No worries, I took no offense. He shot my rifle, which is no where near benchrest quality. He used the rig he uses for testing hand loads and not competition. The front rest he normally uses is made by Sinclair and looks like this http://www.sinclairintl.com/shooting-rests-bipods/shooting-rests-tops/shooting-rest-accessories/sinclair-competition-shooting-rest-prod39322.aspx. I've seen Jim and others use the same or similar rest when they compete at informal Lifesavers shoots at our club. They hang pieces of Lifesavers candy on pieces of thread and shoot at them at 200 meters.

I've learned a thing or two from the man about reloading, but there are some things he does that I don't do. He won't shoot factory ammunition in his benchrest rifle, he fire forms new brass, etc. He numbers his brass and inscribes witness marks on each piece. He indexes the witness marks in the same position when he chambers a cartridge. I would have to shoot a great deal better before realizing any benefit from being that meticulous.

Every time I learn something about precision shooting, I realize how much I don't know.

[masan]

Good stuff!

That clears a lot up, I appreciate it. Those lifesaver matches sound a lot like out TicTac Matches, good fun.

Next time you see him, ask him how many firings he has on that brass, I bet it blows you away :)

[T2C]

Enough of this accuracy stuff. I am going to grab my 4 MOA M1 Garand, 100 rounds of 30-06 and head out to the range to do a little relaxing offhand shooting.

[Auto-X Fil]

Whacking steel with M1 ball is immensely satisfying. I need to get my Garand out more.

[Failure2Stop]

F2S, I'll concede that my fundamentals are not that good, the weakest point in the weapon system is the operator. What I failed to mention was that prior to shooting groups with 175g Match, I fired a 5/8" group at 100 yards with 168g Match. The difference in 168g and 175g group sizes at 100 yards and the size of the 175g group at 300 yards has me stumped. I would have expected a much larger group at 300 yards with the 175g Match.


Wasn't saying that you aren't a good shooter, simply that most folks will tend to "work harder" at longer ranges, and parallax tends to be easier to get correct.
Also, when talking about groups at distance, most shooters don't have dozens of comparative groups, and are more willing to throw out high dispersion shots due to environmental conditions.

[markm]

Wasn't saying that you aren't a good shooter, simply that most folks will tend to "work harder" at longer ranges,

Not me. ;) The amount of long range shooting we do gets me to where it's 2 dimensional. A hundo or a thowie.... it's all the same. Like looking into the same tv screen.. where you forget what range you're even shooting towards.