View Full Version : 10.5 vs 11.5 vs 14.5 for general purpose?
phaseshift
05-29-16, 13:32
Right now I have a 14.5" SR15 Mod 2 love the damn thing! But I was thinking okay if I wanted just one AR which would it be?
Uses:
- Range
- Training
- 3 Gun (not a lot)
- HD/SD
- SHTF
Which one would you guys suggest?
MountainRaven
05-29-16, 14:02
If you want to go to other states without asking permission, I'd say 14.5 with a pinned muzzle device.
If you aren't so concerned about that, I'd say a 12.5" barrel. This is based on John Noveske's selection of his 12.5" barreled rifles as those which he designated as "General Purpose Rifles", his statement that his 12.5" barrel guns were the most accurate, and the fact that most foreign (non-AR-15) short or compact 5.56mm rifles have 12.5" (or very close) barrels (HK33K: 13.1", G36K: 12.5", AK-105: 12.4", Galil SAR: 13.1", Tavor X95: 13", &c.).
I voted "other" because in my opinion general purpose would include hunting and the extra barrel length lends itself to more velocity, not to mention greater durability if mid-length is used and no tax stamp.
Of those choices I voted 14.5, but for just one do it all carbine I personally would prefer 16" without question. Plenty short enough, great for general purpose, and no hassle of getting an SBR tax stamp or pin and welding a muzzle device.
Out of the above, I voted for a 11.5". Tried and tested, with increased dwell time over the 10.5". Add a Vltor A5 system and you are set.
Other (16") for me. No NFA anything for me.
If truly just one AR then a 16" to meet the minimum barrel length requirements. My GP is centered around the Centurion Arms 12.5" with a 16" recce upper (Centurion barrel too). I've never read why Noveske chose 12.5" but here's a post from Monty in 2010 (and probably why they only sell 12.5" and 16" lengths besides the SPR barrel). Of course, Colt and KAC both offer an 11.5" version so they're not a bad choice either.
I chose 16in and 12.5in as I feel these are the best lengths for the cartridge. The 16in for me is the most versatile. Its the minimum legal length with out giving up the ability to change flash hiders and breaks and try new cans ect. I feel that a 16in give me what I need in performance from a 5.56 rifle if I need more that what that offers I'm in an environment that its time to step up to a 7.62. The Recce rifle that later turned into the MK12 program started as a 16in precision rifle and does a great job as a precision weapon in 5.56. If I wanted a carbine as an assaulter or as a general purpose carbine then I'm a fan of the 12.5in barrel its the shortest you can get and still have good terminal performance out of a large variety of ammunition that is on the market. The 12.5 also gives you enough dwell time to be reliable with a wider variety of ammo and in a wider variety of environments it just has a wider operation envelope then the shorter barrels and is a GREAT all around length.
YVK- There are a few little tricks you can do to figure out the gas port size I'm going to reserve any accuracy guarantee for right now on the cut barrels not because of the chrome but because of the taper bore and the fact that you are removing some of it. The Recce will hold its accuracy better during heavier strings of fire being heavier it will absorb the heat better also a heavier rifle is much easier to shoot. The chamber in the Recce is designed for SMK ogive bullet set to magazine length and have minimum jump into the lands and grooves. It will shoot better with those bullets then the hammer forged barrels but for practical accuracy its kinda splitting hairs.
http://i.imgur.com/utJ8BXq.jpg
Big fan of 14.5 inch. Very maneuverable, compact, and light weight. Can reliably run either middy or carbine length gas system. Still maintains acceptable velocity and not quite as much blast as the shorter barreled counterparts. 14.5 is the legitimate compromise barrel, imo.
I own a 10.5 and two 14.5s. I would like to say if I had to pick one it would be my 10.5 but I don't think I really could with the hassle of NFA rules across states. Would be my 14.5 middy.
I think the 14.5" mod 2 you have covers every thing on your list. It's light weight, and the mid length gas makes it very soft shooting.
I really think that if you were to replace that upper with anything else, you'd be pretty disappointed. Maybe disappointed isn't the best word, but I doubt you'd find something that really blows what you have now out of the water.
I have an 11.5" and 14.5". The shorter of the two sits on a pistol, but I did get the chance to shoot it on a friends SBR'd upper. It is very handy, but I must say that I was shooting the 14.5" better.
I don't know if I just got lucky with a crazy accurate barrel, but the gun is a laser. I don't have pictures or any meaningful measurements to share, it was just unscientific setting up of random can, pots and pans at random distances.
friendlyfireisnt
05-29-16, 20:40
I've got barrels from 10.3" (.300blk), 11.5" & 12", 14.5" pinned to 16" and a couple 16".
Right now, my favorite, if I had to grab one, it would be my 14.5" pinned to 16". Very little velocity penalty out to 400 yards when compared to a 16". Bit more maneuverable, and the balance is just about right to me.
My preference might change, depending on how my new 12" Larue shoots.
If you want to go to other states without asking permission, I'd say 14.5 with a pinned muzzle device.
If you aren't so concerned about that, I'd say a 12.5" barrel. This is based on John Noveske's selection of his 12.5" barreled rifles as those which he designated as "General Purpose Rifles", his statement that his 12.5" barrel guns were the most accurate, and the fact that most foreign (non-AR-15) short or compact 5.56mm rifles have 12.5" (or very close) barrels (HK33K: 13.1", G36K: 12.5", AK-105: 12.4", Galil SAR: 13.1", Tavor X95: 13", &c.).
I kind of half to agree, was going to come in and say 12.5 myself, especially if one was looking as an SBR. Other than that I just tend to say 16 just for ease of use and because I don't like perming MDs.
I have a 12.5" and 16", and prefer the 12.5", but with that said, my next AR would definitely be a 14.5 mid length.
556BlackRifle
05-29-16, 21:03
After much thought and consideration, I vote 14.5
Other in 12.5 would have been my choice if not for NFA and interstate travel.
phaseshift
05-29-16, 21:42
I appreciate everyone's reply, I think I'll stick with the 14.5" right now and use the money for more ammo, battle bet, chest rig and then maybe if funds permit a deal/aptial
feel free to convince me though lol
I love my 10.5 suppressed as an hd gun and it flat out looks better, however if I only had one rifle it would be my 14.5.
@phaseshift: yeah, you've made the right decision. I was about to follow up on my initial post with the obligatory "buy more ammo and mags etc.", but you're already there. You have a beauty of a rifle that can do anything. One thing to consider, if you have the itch to spend some money, and if you haven't already purchased one, pick up a KAC SR15 field repair kit. No KAC owner is good to go without at least one one. Link: https://www.boltcarrier.com/product/knights-armament-sr-15-field-repair-kit
Solid choice with the 14.5", just be extra diligent when selecting the muzzle device that gets pinned to it.
I voted other. Like Monty, I am a huge advocate of the 12.5" barrels gun as a GP carbine and my current GP carbine is a 12.5" gun, even though I have an 11.5", 2 14.5" mid-length, 16" mid-length, and a 16" Recce. My next build is a 9" .300 BO and I am in the process of saving for an SR25 APC.
9 in 300 blk great for cqb one mag is like shooting an ak47 another mag is like shooting 45 acp( there is now plated expanding available)
11.5 5.56 min for cqb
16 reece style for gen purpose shtf do all, useable for most needs. the extra barrel means i can change the flash hider based on what I want
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I have a 10.5 shorty that I've gotten to run reliably and smoothly, but according to the data I've seen, the velocity advantage of the 11.5 has over the 10.5 makes it worth the extra inch.
14.5 sounds handy, but when considering the need to pin the muzzle device or pay the $200 tax, I'd rather have the 16 inch and its slight velocity advantage.
Some like the 18 inch, claiming it gives up little velocity to the 20 inch and is almost as handy as the 16 inch. But it has little velocity advantage over the 16 inch. That gives the 18 inch barrel an ambiguous advantage. Why go the extra two inches over a 16 inch for a small gain in velocity while giving up some handiness? Or, why give up even a little of the velocity of the 20 for almost no gain in handiness? If you want the velocity gain, make the jump from 16 inches to 20. You'll give up a bit of handiness, but there will be a greater velocity gain compared to the 16. If you want the handiness of the shorter barrel, might as well go to a 16 inch barrel. There will be a bit more loss of velocity compared to going to an 18 inch barrel, but the difference in handiness will make it worth it.
Currently, the AR I shoot the most is the 10.5 shorty. I've shot good groups with it out to 200 yards with a 4 MOA H1 Micro. An 11.5 inch shows a velocity gain of about 100 to 200 fps and is well worth it. My next shorty upper will be 11.5 and will be fitted with a suppressor. I think could live with that as my only AR if I mounted a 1- 6x scope. If I decided I needed to stretch the range, I would look at a lightweight 20 inch AR with the same optic. If I were looking at shooting smaller targets, such a prairie dogs, I'd use the same rifles but switch to a higher magnification scope
If traveling is a consideration then I would stick with a properly built 16". A 14.5" offers no advantage when compared to a 16". The hassle and cost of pin and welding isn't worth it.
If you can don't mind the NFA game and cost then I would go with an 11.5" or 12.5". Or do like most people and acquire several uppers for one lower.
Solid advice from Iraqgunz.
Option B: Don't increase the barrel length, increase the caliber! Love my 12.5" 308 PWS Mk2, such an awesome monster. :D
It's always interesting to hear the arguments between 16" and 14.5". I completely agree that the whole pin and weld is a hassle, and if going NFA might as well go shorter.
I've always been curious if, and how, people's opinions on 14.5" vs 16" would change if NFA was no longer an object to consider. Or say if NFA now only applied to barrels shorter than 13".
The only reason that 16" exists is due to NFA. If we didn't have it, I would guess that a 16" carbine wouldn't have happened since it offers little over the 14.5".
It's always interesting to hear the arguments between 16" and 14.5". I completely agree that the whole pin and weld is a hassle, and if going NFA might as well go shorter.
I've always been curious if, and how, people's opinions on 14.5" vs 16" would change if NFA was no longer an object to consider. Or say if NFA now only applied to barrels shorter than 13".
I'd get one of each. But I live in NJ so 14.5" with a pinned Surefire socom MB works for me.
I voted 11.5. My go to is a 12.5 and I like it but as of late, I've been contemplating a 10.5 build. If I had to pick a GP rifle for myself, it'd be a LW 11.5
If it wasn't for NFA, the default barrel length for the AR platform would likely be 14.5" since that is what most of the military is issued. There is a reason the military specifies that length. Of course there would be those that would have or find a need for and would sing the praises of 11.5/12.5" such as those who choose to use a suppressor. That is where the 11.5 and 12.5 really shine. Loss of velocity is a benefit of the shorter barrel in that case and it makes handling and maneuvering with the suppressor much more manageable.
I have a 10.3, 11.5 and a few 14.5 and a 16.
The 10.3 and 11.5 are fairly new to me as I just got my first SBR but I have a few hundred rounds through each and I have thousands of rounds through the 14.5's and 16.
I'd take my BCM 11.5 w/ the KMR rail over any of them with a can on it. Its an incredibly handy rifle that is about the same length as a 14.5 without a can, its lightweight and I can easily reach out to 200 with it.
I've had 10.5, 11.5, 12.5, and 14.5 and my current SBR is a 12.5. I personally think that 14.5 is one of a very few things that the US military got right. After 2 deployments, and 26 years as a LEO I would choose the 14.5. That may be why I have 3 14.5 pinned. It's m ypreferred lenght.
mattpittinger
05-30-16, 20:49
11.5 or 12.5 with a can is hard to beat for an all around setup.
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The 14.5" is my favorite in non-SBR, but if I use my SBR's, I like the 10.3" or 10.5" with suppressor. I will be honest and say that I do not own or have used the 11.5" uppers, so my opinion is biased. I think my next upper will be either a BCM, Sionics, or Colt 6933.
Another vote for the 14.5. I've got several 14.5s and a few 16s. The difference in length might not seem like much, but I notice a difference when handling the 14.5s.
Love my pinned 14.5 middie, and it's my current sweet spot. I hunt with a Grendel 16" though.
Berserkr556
06-01-16, 17:28
I voted other. For General Purpose 16" does all I need it to do. If NFA wasn't around 11.5" would be my go to.
I have yet to meet someone who invested in a 14.5 and didn't regret it.
Either you're going to do the paperwork or you're not. Welding it doesn't make it more wieldly but does make it complicated if you want a different muzzle device.
You can always have a pistol until your paperwork clears.
It's ultimately your rifle but, until they do away with NFA(HA!), it's not really worth the trouble IMO.
PatrioticDisorder
06-01-16, 21:33
If I could only have 1, 11.5 with a can is the way to go, hands down, not even a contest. If NFA didn't exist, 11.5 would be the most popular length & suppressors would be virtually mandatory.
PatrioticDisorder
06-01-16, 21:34
I have yet to meet someone who invested in a 14.5 and didn't regret it.
Either you're going to do the paperwork or you're not. Welding it doesn't make it more wieldly but does make it complicated if you want a different muzzle device.
You can always have a pistol until your paperwork clears.
It's ultimately your rifle but, until they do away with NFA(HA!), it's not really worth the trouble IMO.
14.5 with stamp makes for a good "mini Recce" style rifle, although I wouldn't take it over an 11.5.
I also do not understand the draw to 14.5" barrels. That last 1.5ish inch doesn't amount to much in weight and I like the ability to swap out muzzle devices if I choose to do so.
That being said, I chose the 11.5" because I really enjoy that length the most.
I voted 11.5... Because my all-purpose rifle is an 11.5" AR with an all-purpose sighting setup. It's all-purpose. :)
http://i.imgur.com/F969Lbv.jpg
KITTEN_FRENZY
06-02-16, 00:32
I have an 11.5 but am building a 10.5 at the moment.
Honestly, I'll probably use the 10.5 more.
1. It's prettier (Seekins billet receivers with SLR rail)
2. My guns are primarily HD/SD guns. I live in an apartment so longer ranges really don't apply to me.
I voted 11.5... Because my all-purpose rifle is an 11.5" AR with an all-purpose sighting setup. It's all-purpose. :)
http://i.imgur.com/F969Lbv.jpg
Hey, is that an all-purpose config?
If you are going to include NFA, then hands down the 12.5" is the way to go. Compact yet able to standardize the heavier rounds out to greater distances. I have two and they are my go-to set ups
I have both 11.3 and 12.5. I feel the 12.5 is more accurate with a wider range of bullets. I use it for coyote hunting with suppressor. I hunt from a building so I wanted to be able to move with weapon to different Windows without worrying about hitting something.
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I voted other for a 16 inch. It's short enough for building searches and long enough to keep the velocity up for longer ranges.
If NFA wasn't a concern I might switch my answer to an 11.5.
ExplorinInTheWoods
06-02-16, 15:33
I think 14.5 is the way to go for general purpose out of the choices listed. It's still long enough to not affect velocity and it still handy. Now I'm not denying that 10.5 and 11.5 fair better in CQB but those two lose a lot of velocity. I have heard the Noveske 12.5 stainless crusader has the same velocity as a chrome moly 14.5. If those are true then that would be the ultimate short barrel.
If you are going to include NFA, then hands down the 12.5" is the way to go. Compact yet able to standardize the heavier rounds out to greater distances. I have two and they are my go-to set ups
Not gonna lie. I wish my Ris2 rail was an inch shorter so I could run down to a 12.5 barrel and make it work.
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foxjordan22
06-02-16, 17:32
12.5" best all around size without loosing too much over a 16" gun. Also if you like fixed front sights and standard or plastic Magpul handguards with the Kino configuration you can fit a midlength handguard on the 12.5" upper
Actually, yeah, if I go SBR route then I'd likely go 12.5" with an OTB suppressor if long enough (it should be). And retain the FSB.
I think when I get around to doing a personal SBR and suppressor...that's what I shall do.
Maybe some people are happy with a pin and weld but ugh I wouldn't want something and be forced to marry the FH.
If I invest all the money time and paperwork, I want something handy but not limiting.
WatchTheWorldBern
06-02-16, 19:47
Why 12.5" over 11.5"? Does anyone know what the velocity differences are? I remember being pretty surprised at the large difference between 10.5" and 11.5", but is there a similarly large difference between 11.5" and 12.5"
Or is it just dwell time and reliability? Particularly curious because I've been thinking about a Sionics 11.5" for a pistol build.
Why 12.5" over 11.5"? Does anyone know what the velocity differences are? I remember being pretty surprised at the large difference between 10.5" and 11.5", but is there a similarly large difference between 11.5" and 12.5"
Or is it just dwell time and reliability? Particularly curious because I've been thinking about a Sionics 11.5" for a pistol build.
Based on my chronograph data...
Prvi 75gr .223:
11.5: 2333 fps
12.5: 2402 fps
14.5: 2475 fps
Hornady 75gr TAP 5.56:
11.5: 2464 fps
12.5: 2553 fps
14.5: 2677 fps
Mk318 SOST:
11.5: 2659 fps
12.5: 2774 fps
14.5: 2888 fps
For 0-300 yards I'm perfectly happy with an 11.5" barrel. Heck, out to 500 yards I would not want to be downrange of 70gr TSX or 77gr TMK out of an 11.5" barrel.
eightpoint
06-02-16, 22:31
14.5 for me. Maneuverability, rail real estate, and ballistics are beyond satisfactory.
BoringGuy45
06-02-16, 23:15
My planned SBR build is going to be a 12.5. It feels like a good compromise to me.
Boba Fett v2
06-03-16, 00:00
If I could only have 1, 11.5 with a can is the way to go, hands down, not even a contest. If NFA didn't exist, 11.5 would be the most popular length & suppressors would be virtually mandatory.
I agree.
https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1233x683q90/922/3XNNwf.jpg
Guns-up.50
06-03-16, 00:24
14.5 for me . Yes shorter is good for cqb, yet 16 , 18 is better for extended range. So 14.5 is best of both worlds. Plus no 200 bones to the govt
BufordTJustice
06-03-16, 10:32
I agree.
https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1233x683q90/922/3XNNwf.jpg
Nice Saker. 762?
BufordTJustice
06-03-16, 10:40
Based on my chronograph data...
Prvi 75gr .223:
11.5: 2333 fps
12.5: 2402 fps
14.5: 2475 fps
Hornady 75gr TAP 5.56:
11.5: 2464 fps
12.5: 2553 fps
14.5: 2677 fps
Mk318 SOST:
11.5: 2659 fps
12.5: 2774 fps
14.5: 2888 fps
For 0-300 yards I'm perfectly happy with an 11.5" barrel. Heck, out to 500 yards I would not want to be downrange of 70gr TSX or 77gr TMK out of an 11.5" barrel.
Bingo. 11.5" suppressed for me.
Using bonded soft points, it's my go to. I employ the Federal XM556FBIT3 TBBC 62gr as my primary round, but will be testing my Hornady TAP 70 gr GMX 5.56 soon. Speer 64 gr Gold Dot as a backup.
With a 50/200 meter zero, using the TBBC, hits past 275-ish require some Kentucky Elevation. Dead hold, fast hits from 250-and-in using my 4moa (3.4?) Aimpoint T1 using mag monopod off a stack of pallets.
Meets my mission requirements and has full spectrum signature reduction.
fallenromeo
06-03-16, 13:21
I am surprised to hear so many people saying 12.5 over 11.5 since all I have read recently on this forum seems to praise 11.5 as the all-mighty SBR length. Was considering a 11.5" pistol build, now I may need to re-evaluate
Failure2Stop
06-03-16, 13:53
11.5 if I have a suppressor and don't have a realistic need to exceed 200 meters, with primary application being inside 100m.
14.5 if I have a realistic need to reach past 200.
ZipZopBoop
06-03-16, 14:07
I am surprised to hear so many people saying 12.5 over 11.5 since all I have read recently on this forum seems to praise 11.5 as the all-mighty SBR length. Was considering a 11.5" pistol build, now I may need to re-evaluate
I'm also surprised by all the people saying 12.5 since they're relatively uncommon. I own one myself and I would also vote for it since I believe it's the best compromise. It still creates enough velocity to have m193 have the desired terminal ballistic effect at ~100 yards, which is really an arbitrary number but makes me feel good about it. I don't think anyone, even the shortest folks, can claim it feels too long, and it will feel compact to most. Significantly smaller than a 14.5" and insignificantly longer than the 11.5".
The way I see it, the 14.5" was used by the military because they wanted to compromise the longer range capabilities for some length. And cutting more than 6" off the barrel would be too drastic. The 10.5" was created as a specialty weapon for very niche roles. The 11.5" was a minor change to the 10.5" to improve reliability.
The 12.5" just seems like it was designed to be the perfect compromise between size and power in all but rural environments. If you're on the fence about a 12.5", I strongly urge you to find the opportunity to handle one. It will make sense once you do.
I had a conversation with John Noveske one time about something similar, and he commented that if he could only have one AR15, it would be a 12.5" barreled model. That doesn't seem to be an option on your poll, so I'm relaying this info instead of voting.
friendlyfireisnt
06-03-16, 15:52
I stated earlier that my current preference is for a 14.5" pinned to 16", as it is (at least to me) a good compromise between size and downrange ability. One of the important criteria I have is I want my primary 5.56 defensive carbine to be capable out to at least 400 yards. In my testing, depending on ammo, my hold over at 400 yards is between 2.5-2.7 mils. My 16" carbines tend to be about 2.3-2.5 mils.
Yesterday, I had a chance to take my new 12" upper out. Using my Leupold VX-R Patrol 1-4x I had absolutely no issue engaging steel out at 412 yards. It was taking between 2.8-3.1 mils of hold over to make hits. That's once again depending on ammo used.
I still really like my 14.5", but it may take a back seat for awhile.
ColtSeavers
06-03-16, 16:09
Voted other. 16" does verything very well with no NFA obligations.
Figure out your particular definition of "general purpose".
What are the percentage chance of being at any given engagement envelope (0-50m, 50-100m, 100-200m, 200-300m, 300-500m, 500-800m, 800-1100m, 1100m+)? What are your likely targets (paper, poultry, pests, pigs, people, or pachyderms)?
From there, find the minimum barrel length that will satisfactorily deal with most of your threats at 90%+ of the given range envelopes and choose that.
Finally, make sure it's legal in your given and forseeable location. An NFA item might not be welcome in some states, for example, or you may have to have a welded on muzzle device.
For me, it's paper, pests, and people mostly at 100m and in, but maybe out to 200m. A 10.5" barrel brings my suppressor in closer for better balance than a 11.5" or longer. I don't travel across state borders often, if ever. Thus, I selected a 10.5" as my "general purpose" barrel length.
ZipZopBoop
06-03-16, 18:36
I had a conversation with John Noveske one time about something similar, and he commented that if he could only have one AR15, it would be a 12.5" barreled model. That doesn't seem to be an option on your poll, so I'm relaying this info instead of voting.
That's funny. I actually ran across one of your posts saying that when I was doing the research involved in deciding what to build. It certainly affected my decision. The internet can really become echo chambers for stuff like this, but having had my 12.5" for a while, I know it's my favorite and would be my go-to rifle.
I am surprised to hear so many people saying 12.5 over 11.5 since all I have read recently on this forum seems to praise 11.5 as the all-mighty SBR length. Was considering a 11.5" pistol build, now I may need to re-evaluate
I wouldn't change my plans based on what other people say is THEIR preferred setup. You still have to evaluate your needs and what serves them the best. There are several posts in this thread that should help you make a decision based on real need as opposed to a poll that says "X is the most popular."
I stated earlier that my current preference is for a 14.5" pinned to 16", as it is (at least to me) a good compromise between size and downrange ability. One of the important criteria I have is I want my primary 5.56 defensive carbine to be capable out to at least 400 yards. In my testing, depending on ammo, my hold over at 400 yards is between 2.5-2.7 mils. My 16" carbines tend to be about 2.3-2.5 mils.
Yesterday, I had a chance to take my new 12" upper out. Using my Leupold VX-R Patrol 1-4x I had absolutely no issue engaging steel out at 412 yards. It was taking between 2.8-3.1 mils of hold over to make hits. That's once again depending on ammo used.
I still really like my 14.5", but it may take a back seat for awhile.
And this is why, for me and my perceived needs, 12.5" fits the bill for a true GP rifle. Short enough without a can to fit just about anywhere, but can still reach out and do some damage.
Not gonna lie. I wish my Ris2 rail was an inch shorter so I could run down to a 12.5 barrel and make it work.
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I had the exact same thought. I was shooting my LMT Def2K which has a FSP RIS2 on it and thought "I should SBR this thing and have it cut to 12.5." Then I remembered the RIS2 was 12.25" long. :(
I had the exact same thought. I was shooting my LMT Def2K which has a FSP RIS2 on it and thought "I should SBR this thing and have it cut to 12.5." Then I remembered the RIS2 was 12.25" long. :(
I had an MK18 FSP but sold it for the CMR 11".
Stick has/had the GL/SSC model (grenade launcher/sound suppressor capable) that's ~11".
http://i.imgur.com/dzNnTvB.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7095/7187001989_761fe94fca_o.jpg
Every time I look at that rail in my cabinet it says I should cut down a 16" barrel to 12.9" or whatever I'd need to make it work.
Maybe this fall.
If anyone by chance knows the exact length that would still facilitate running a surefire MD and suppressor by all means please advise. I'm pretty sure it's 12.9.
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Voted other. 16" does everything very well with no NFA obligations.
I agree with you. I will most likely be moving out of state with a possibility to move back in 5 years or so, which means that the NFA regulations become much more of a headache. If I can find a 5.56 in a pistol that can fit easily in a backpack I might bite, but I really don't see anything I like on the market that does it for me.
Boba Fett v2
06-18-16, 16:03
Nice Saker. 762?
Yessir.
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I have yet to meet someone who invested in a 14.5 and didn't regret it.
Either you're going to do the paperwork or you're not. Welding it doesn't make it more wieldly but does make it complicated if you want a different muzzle device.
I have two and them....... no regrets. One is my favorite non-NFA set up.
I have run all the barrels lengths ( like many others ) and I think 14.5 offers the best middle ground for an all purpose gun. I have my BCM ELW 14.5 with a mini4 on the tip and find it awesome.
Yes, I dig 10.3, 10.5, and 11.5 guns, but if I needed to reach out, I'd like the extra velocity of a 14.5. In the end, we don't have to pick just one thank the lord.
PB
I have two and them....... no regrets. One is my favorite non-NFA set up.
I have one as well. I also have the 16" stag upper I started with. I did my homework, and pinned a device I will be using a silencer on. With that money invested, the extra cash for a new muzzle device is a moot point. 4 years old I believe, and still love it. That said I'm not one that chases the next best thing. If you are, don't pin it.
Having had 7.5, 11.5, 16, and currently a 14.5, (Shot the 14.5 and 16 the most), if I wanted something for all-around use,
I'd go with a 16 inch mid-length. If I really wanted something short again I'd go 11.5.
I voted "other" in your poll.
HighDesert
06-18-16, 23:39
Having had 7.5, 11.5, 16, and currently a 14.5, (Shot the 14.5 and 16 the most), if I wanted something for all-around use,
I'd go with a 16 inch mid-length. If I really wanted something short again I'd go 11.5.
I voted "other" in your poll.
Agree 100%
BufordTJustice
06-18-16, 23:56
I have run all the barrels lengths ( like many others ) and I think 14.5 offers the best middle ground for an all purpose gun. I have my BCM ELW 14.5 with a mini4 on the tip and find it awesome.
Yes, I dig 10.3, 10.5, and 11.5 guns, but if I needed to reach out, I'd like the extra velocity of a 14.5. In the end, we don't have to pick just one thank the lord.
PB
Absent NFA constraints, I imagine a 13.7"-14.5" (like my wife's BCM 14.5" middy) would be great do-all setup.
But, having had to jump through the NFA hoops, i wanted a little more juice from my squeeze/money/effort.... so the 11.5" it was.
Though, I certainly won't say that a true 12.5"/13.7/14.5" won't make it into my stable at some point.
EDIT: and, my need to reach-out is severely limited in woody central Florida. A 300 yard shot is a long shot down here.
Boba Fett v2
11-04-17, 20:31
11.5 is still my final answer for a GP go-to. A pinned 14.5 is still my ideal "interstate" set-up.
5.56 Bonded SP
11-05-17, 00:31
16"
If I want short I'll grab my Tavor.
Of the options, I'd choose 11.5. Small enough to fight with, even inside a structure, but long enough to use out to several hundred meters.
It's interesting to revisit this thread since my original response almost a year and a half ago. Then, my preference was to go with a 16" barrel over a 14.5, as I felt it the difference between two was not worth the hassle of pinning a muzzle device or paying the $200 tax. Since then, I've been shooting a 14.5" upper and it's changed my mind. I like a 14.5" upper better than a 16" upper. It's worth getting pinned.
After much thought and consideration, I vote 14.5
Other in 12.5 would have been my choice if not for NFA and interstate travel.
I feel like all that I have read on here, and what I am starting to learn about with first hand experience, this is the answer. However, I myself am working towards having all the lengths and configurations to play with!
I'll vote 11.5 w/ suppressor. But, I've owned everything from 10.3-16" and I would be happy w/ any if that was all I had. I think a lot of people would be singing a different tune once they take the extra step into the NFA game, and are finally able to put a stock on their pistol and mount their suppressor. There's almost no going back from that!
Diamondback
11-05-17, 09:30
Do I really have to pick only ONE?
16" rifle or 14.5" pistol: Outdoor work, the neighbors and I having to defend the cul-de-sac, and GP in 3-gun/other range work.
12.5" pistol: Indoor CQB.
10.3" pistol: BOB/GHB/vehicle-gun or Briefcase Carry.
I'm starting to think a Creeping Incrementalism approach might be good for SBR Reform: "Why is 16" fine but 14.5 so dangerous it needs to be tightly regulated and specially taxed?" Once we get the NFA limit reduced to 14.5, then we push for 12.5, or maybe "only rifles below 26" OAL are SBR", and so on until we finally hit a point where "Ya know what? There hasn't been a problem with SBR's in crime at all, let's just quit wasting everybody's time and money and reduce NFA to Machine Guns and Disguised Firearms." (Granted, the goal is eventual elimination... but the other team got us here one piece at a time, and barring the sudden enlightenment of SCOTUS we're gonna have to roll it back a little at a time.)
BufordTJustice
11-05-17, 11:50
Do I really have to pick only ONE?
16" rifle or 14.5" pistol: Outdoor work, the neighbors and I having to defend the cul-de-sac, and GP in 3-gun/other range work.
12.5" pistol: Indoor CQB.
10.3" pistol: BOB/GHB/vehicle-gun or Briefcase Carry.
I'm starting to think a Creeping Incrementalism approach might be good for SBR Reform: "Why is 16" fine but 14.5 so dangerous it needs to be tightly regulated and specially taxed?" Once we get the NFA limit reduced to 14.5, then we push for 12.5, or maybe "only rifles below 26" OAL are SBR", and so on until we finally hit a point where "Ya know what? There hasn't been a problem with SBR's in crime at all, let's just quit wasting everybody's time and money and reduce NFA to Machine Guns and Disguised Firearms." (Granted, the goal is eventual elimination... but the other team got us here one piece at a time, and barring the sudden enlightenment of SCOTUS we're gonna have to roll it back a little at a time.)
I like it.
For me, my tax stamped 11.5” with can is my do everything gun. The only thing that could get me away from my BRT 16” Optimized intermediate barrel is a high quality 14.5” middy with .076” gas port and perm’d ASR flash hider. And even then, I dunno.
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I would avoid the 14.5" and go 16" instead to avoid any legal issues. The difference in length is negligible once you pin a long muzzle device. The lack of ability to modify the upper and added cost are also detractors. Plus I can get a little more oomph out of 16", so it would be a better gp gun.
If you are gonna go nfa, I would do 11.5-12.5. I choose 11.5 with a suppressor to keep oal short, while still giving decent velocity over a 10" gun.
Do I really have to pick only ONE?
16" rifle or 14.5" pistol: Outdoor work, the neighbors and I having to defend the cul-de-sac, and GP in 3-gun/other range work.
12.5" pistol: Indoor CQB.
10.3" pistol: BOB/GHB/vehicle-gun or Briefcase Carry.
I'm starting to think a Creeping Incrementalism approach might be good for SBR Reform: "Why is 16" fine but 14.5 so dangerous it needs to be tightly regulated and specially taxed?" Once we get the NFA limit reduced to 14.5, then we push for 12.5, or maybe "only rifles below 26" OAL are SBR", and so on until we finally hit a point where "Ya know what? There hasn't been a problem with SBR's in crime at all, let's just quit wasting everybody's time and money and reduce NFA to Machine Guns and Disguised Firearms." (Granted, the goal is eventual elimination... but the other team got us here one piece at a time, and barring the sudden enlightenment of SCOTUS we're gonna have to roll it back a little at a time.)
Sure, but it's almost kind of sort of a pipe dream to think that we could get the SBR limit reduced to begin with. Too many fudds, too much liberal media, too much ignorance and apathy.
I understand the logical, death by 1k papercuts and incrementalism/one step at a time, one inch at a time, is how we lost so much shit.
My ONE do everything gun would have to be a 16" barrel (by law), so either 16" or a pinned long flash hider on a 14.5" but I don't really see the point in that since I'd be married to that muzzle device and couldn't just swap it myself. I would never want my ONE and only gun to be something I can't cross state lines with unless I have prior written authorization from the federal government to do so.
Diamondback
11-05-17, 17:57
That may well be, Warp, but if we don't start taking the Offensive we're going to be stuck playing D while the Dems bide their time until they get their next chance at the Federal level... just like how they push relentlessly at the State level. If Jinyoung Englund doesn't win in the 45th District Senate special-election Tuesday, you might as well hang it up on gun-rights here in Washington. (The only thing curbing the insanity of our Seattle Democrat-ruled State House has been ONE VOTE in the Senate.)
I'd rather be making them try to defend the restrictions they DO have on the books than leave them free to push for more.
In 223/5.56 the longer the barrel the better.
I was sold on 11.5" 5.56 for an all around gun. Ordered myself a GMR 11.5" only to find out it has like a .080 gas port...
I was sold on 11.5" 5.56 for an all around gun. Ordered myself a GMR 11.5" only to find out it has like a .080 gas port...
Wow. I cut down a stag to try the barrel length out in a pistol. It has a .075 and is a little over gassed.
I’m really liking the 11.5” so far but don’t have enough rounds through it to really weigh in. Still like the 14.5”..
Out to 200 I think either would be fine. Even indoors it’s not a huge difference imo. I think a silencer would change that though- I’ll know in about a year.
For those worried about state lines, switch over to a pistol lower when traveling. That makes these decisions easier.
I’m really digging my 14” BA barrel for a GP. It’s at 16” with dead air muzzle device. I don’t mind being married to a muzzle device when I have a can for it.
BufordTJustice
11-06-17, 07:31
For those worried about state lines, switch over to a pistol lower when traveling. That makes these decisions easier.
I’m really digging my 14” BA barrel for a GP. It’s at 16” with dead air muzzle device. I don’t mind being married to a muzzle device when I have a can for it.
Good point. I’m married to a type (ASR) of muzzle device BECAUSE I have cans for my guns, lol.
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For those worried about state lines, switch over to a pistol lower when traveling. That makes these decisions easier.
I’m really digging my 14” BA barrel for a GP. It’s at 16” with dead air muzzle device. I don’t mind being married to a muzzle device when I have a can for it.
That kind of violates the "just one AR" question upon which this thread is based, though.
You could also just say you would have a second upper with a longer barrel for interstate travel, and probably be more in line with the thread since the upper isn't a second gun, while having an AR pistol lower in addition to your AR SBR lower is, well, more than just one AR.
Obviously things get much more simple, from a decision making 'what do I want' perspective, when you can have multiples instead of 'just one'
If I get 'just one', no way in hell it's going to be one that requires federal government written pre-authorization before I can cross a state line with it
Roger that, Warp.
I think the pinned 14” BA barrel recommendation as the one GP rifle. With a law folder it’s compact. And only 2.5” longer than the coveted 11.5 with same dead air muzzle device. The non-NFA sweet spot.
MisterHelix
11-06-17, 16:27
For my uses, a lightweight 12.5" carbine is the sweet spot.
Decent velocities within practical ranges, compact, not too unwieldy with a can.
If a 12.5" isn't practical due to NFA issues, I'd skip right to the 16" and call it a day. I suppose, given NFA travel restrictions, that if I had to have "just one" I'd go 16".
A pinned and welded muzzle device can make maintenance and repair/upgrade a big hassle (eg, changing rail, gas block, barrel)
dlraymond30
11-07-17, 11:55
I think that a pinned suppressor on a 10"-12.5", depending on suppressor length, is where the "one fighting gun" would come into its role like the DD ISR. just my 2 cents but that way you could cross state lines.. Or a pistol with an SB series 4 brace and a 10.3" would be a great option...
The Noveske Diplomat would fill this role very well.
crusader377
11-09-17, 11:01
My vote is a 16" barrel either using a midlength or carbine length gas system. My reasoning is I have a 14.5" pinned rifle and it really doesn't offer any advantage over a 16" rifle and a SBR 14.5" is more expensive, have to go through a lot of government red tape, and their are travel restrictions with a SBR. The 10.5 and 11.5 options are certainly handier than a 16" but have the same cost, and government restrictions associated with SBRs and for my needs they aren't worth the cost or hassle of dealing with the ATF.
Now if we didn't have the pointless, anti-freedom ATF, my vote would be for a 12.5"-13.5" barrel, because you have nearly the handiness of the shorter 10.5 and 11.5 while keeping decent fragmentation range with your standard M193 and M855 rounds.
Very interesting discussion. Assuming you already have SBR stamped hosts, but with a '94-style AWB still in effect and AR pistols and suppressors banned at the state level (in one of your states of residence), what's a person to do? With a hat-tip to the earlier post by Koshinn:
Figure out your particular definition of "general purpose".
What are the percentage chance of being at any given engagement envelope (0-50m, 50-100m, 100-200m, 200-300m, 300-500m, 500-800m, 800-1100m, 1100m+)? What are your likely targets (paper, poultry, pests, pigs, people, or pachyderms)?
From there, find the minimum barrel length that will satisfactorily deal with most of your threats at 90%+ of the given range envelopes and choose that.
Finally, make sure it's legal in your given and forseeable location. An NFA item might not be welcome in some states, for example, or you may have to have a welded on muzzle device.
For me, it's paper, pests, and people mostly at 100m and in, but maybe out to 200m. A 10.5" barrel brings my suppressor in closer for better balance than a 11.5" or longer. I don't travel across state borders often, if ever. Thus, I selected a 10.5" as my "general purpose" barrel length.
my uses are paper / practice and people (hopefully never), at ranges from 10-125m. I've got 10.5" and 16", and REALLY like the shorter length for handiness. However, the unsuppressed blast from 10.5" + A2 is pretty darned loud. I still don't own any magnified optics, so even my 16" uppers are realistically set up for only this range envelope. I have a spare 14.5" barrel, but haven't tried it. I would consider a dedicated upper (non-LMT MRP) with something in-between, but maybe the smart move is to get a quality 11.5" or 12.5" barrel and have it modified to work in one of my LMT MRP upper receivers.
turnburglar
11-09-17, 11:30
In the military my M4 was a 14.5, and I definitely didn't have any 'choices' to make with it.
As a civilian now, I prefer a proper stock and have so much time behind a 14.5 even doing room clearing, that I don't think I would appreciate a AR pistol. (don't want to play the NFA game)
So if you have a NFA registered SBR (10.5" or 11.5" or whatever) can you go to other states that allow NFA registered firearms without doing anything? Or is there a process to it?
Thanks, NYH1.
I may as well add my opinion to the 1000 on the thread already. I have everything from a 7.4" 300 blk up to a couple 16" guns. I really don't understand the resistance to a permed muzzle device. Maybe when you are first starting to shoot ARs and trying out different muzzle devices I could see it, but I think most people get to the point where you have a pretty good idea about what you need/want. Mine is pretty simple, I use Dead Air suppressors, so if I want a can on it, it gets a break or FH from Dead Air.
I am waiting on a pin/weld job right now on what I think will be my general purpose gun using Ballistic Advantage 14" barrel with a pinned Dead Air FH. I had a similar build with a Geissele 13" MK8 and a BE Meyers 249s that I ended up trading in part for a motorcycle a couple years ago. The more I thought about it and shot other set-ups, the more I liked the 13.7-14" barrel with a 13" handguard. For me having a GP rifle that is not NFA is nice, and when you are only about 1" longer than a 12.5, I'll save the 200 bucks and the hassle of going across state lines (when you like 15 minutes from the next state over it happens quite a bit).
The first thing it seems that people say when you talk about a 13.7-14.5 gun that's pinned/welded, you always have the "just go NFA bro" chorus. I get it, I already have $1400 in tax stamps in various stages of approval. It's nice having a bit shorter rifle without a stamp sometimes.
ginzomatic
11-09-17, 15:02
So if you have a NFA registered SBR (10.5" or 11.5" or whatever) can you go to other states that allow NFA registered firearms without doing anything? Or is there a process to it?
Thanks, NYH1.
you have to notify BAFTE and receive prior auth
I may as well add my opinion to the 1000 on the thread already. I have everything from a 7.4" 300 blk up to a couple 16" guns. I really don't understand the resistance to a permed muzzle device. Maybe when you are first starting to shoot ARs and trying out different muzzle devices I could see it, but I think most people get to the point where you have a pretty good idea about what you need/want. Mine is pretty simple, I use Dead Air suppressors, so if I want a can on it, it gets a break or FH from Dead Air.
I am waiting on a pin/weld job right now on what I think will be my general purpose gun using Ballistic Advantage 14" barrel with a pinned Dead Air FH. ...
I have this exact setup (I mentioned it above) and think it’s fantastic. And an accurate lightweight barrel too.
https://i.imgur.com/H2PGikM.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/4dIQLaj.jpg
So if you have a NFA registered SBR (10.5" or 11.5" or whatever) can you go to other states that allow NFA registered firearms without doing anything? Or is there a process to it?
Thanks, NYH1.
You have to ask permission from the ATF to remove the SBR from the state. However if you configure it with a non-NFA upper, it is no longer considered an SBR and can cross state lines without permission.
11.5-12.5" is perfect for me. If there was no NFA, I'd probably only have one 16-20" AR and the rest would fall in the 12" range.
you have to notify BAFTE and receive prior auth
You have to ask permission from the ATF to remove the SBR from the state. However if you configure it with a non-NFA upper, it is no longer considered an SBR and can cross state lines without permission.
Thanks.
NYH1.
So if you have a NFA registered SBR (10.5" or 11.5" or whatever) can you go to other states that allow NFA registered firearms without doing anything? Or is there a process to it?
Thanks, NYH1.
BATFE form 5320.20
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/form/application-transport-interstate-or-temporarily-export-certain-national-firearms/download
So, as above, prior written authorization is required.
BufordTJustice
11-11-17, 08:51
BATFE form 5320.20
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/form/application-transport-interstate-or-temporarily-export-certain-national-firearms/download
So, as above, prior written authorization is required.
Same form used to change one’s address for a permanent move as well, IIRC.
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