View Full Version : Dave Spaulding on the Current State of Firearms Training
A friend posted this on his Facebook page. Well said Mr. Spaulding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Of81h8Iclnw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Of81h8Iclnw
Strong words from an angry young man.
Many cogent points were made. Not enough cursing though.
He's aboslutely right. If someone comes in on me they'll likely encounter a pissed off, butt nekkid man wielding some kinda carbine. Otherwise, yeah, pistol and a spare mag or two.
People need to go back to good, old honest work instead of SEAL team 6 cosplay or who can wear the most expensive/obscure clothes or mannery like it was senior prom or something
Goddamn that was brilliant.
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KalashniKEV
06-01-16, 12:48
I am so disappointed that it wasn't this guy:
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/headhuntershorrorhouse/images/c/c0/Captain_Spaulding_001.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090926183519
Kind of ironic that it was produced by Panteao.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-01-16, 12:56
I went to another shooting hobby, photography, lecture with Kenneth Josephson, a really interesting photographer because he gets pics that about things he finds, juxtapositions and such. That means he is out and about and actually paying attention to his surroundings. But the relevant thing is that in an hour long presentation and 30 minutes of questions, the only mention of gear was "I still shoot film, I haven't gotten into digital". The dude is 83, I think he has resigned himself to the skill set he has. But no one went on about what camera, what lens, the processing of this or that. It ain't about the gear.
I've been trying to de-5.11 my stuff, Duluth Trading stuff is just as good. My 5.11 pants have more paint than blood stains. I'm not a pro gun slinger and and I hope I never have to even reach semi-pro.
I was thinking the same thing as 26INF on the Panteo angle. The guy drew the line at on line forums and youtube videos. Obviously Panteo is higher caliber (there I go using lingo) than random youtube videos, but it is still at best awareness and not actual learning. If watching videos inferred actual skill sets, I'd give Ron Jeremy a run for his money.
Heh. I enjoy Dave Spaulding, and if you thought that video was pretty good, you'd really enjoy spending two days with the guy in a training course. I did Handgun Combatives II with him last fall, just did Critical Space about two weeks ago, and I'm signed up for Vehicle Combatives this September. Dave is the real deal, a straightforward down-to-earth guy and a great instructor. All of the stuff in the video I heard from him last week over dinner and a couple of Crown Royals.
I am so disappointed that it wasn't this guy:
He had some top secret clown business to attend to
Kind of ironic that it was produced by Panteao.
IKR....The same people that brought you Crazy Ivan and his AK Death Blossom
I'm probably going to burn all my 5.11 stuff this summer. Burn it and piss on the ashes.
My Tru Spec stuff is awesome because it's cook white and comfy so that stays.
Anyways "tactical assholery" is now a beloved term that I shall abuse
MountainRaven
06-01-16, 13:28
"Train how you fight."
So are his training courses 95% drawing a handgun on people who immediately surrender? Is any time spent in deescalation tactics? What to do after a shooting: Talking to dispatch, talking and behaving around responding officers? Dealing with the legal and professional and possibly even political fallout of surviving a shooting? Do 95% of his non-LEO students shoot with the Glock 43s and S&W 642s they actually carry in the actual holsters they carry them in? Are they required to shoot only their defensive ammunition? Do they wear the flip-flops and suits or slacks and polos they actually wear 90% of their waking hours? Does a portion of the course include falling asleep and being awoken in the middle of the night after 2-4 hours of sleep and trying to juggle a phone, a gun, a light, and family members? Is most of the actual training full contact force-on-force?
No? Then it's not, "training like you fight."
This is like HEMA guys dissing on Iaido, Kendo, and fencing guys. No, it's pretty much exactly the same thing.
Yes, but more importantly, what brand hat was he wearing?
"Train how you fight."
Does a portion of the course include falling asleep and being awoken in the middle of the night after 2-4 hours of sleep and trying to juggle a phone, a gun, a light, and family members? Is most of the actual training full contact force-on-force?
No? Then it's not, "training like you fight."
I was thinking this. I've yet to have a drill where I get up in a dark room in my boxer shorts with the Pomeranian going ape shit.
Meanwhile, vendors all over are pulling out their hair, screaming "noooooo......buy our shoes...camo...holster. A famous instructor uses it!"
I jest.
Agree with Fjallhrafn, I doubt many of his students show up on the firing line with their wife and kids carrying groceries or forego hearing or eye protection.
I watch youtube videos to get an idea of what an instructor is like along with what and how they teach. This video just convinced me to avoid Mr. Spaulding.
The cranyky old man reverse elitism is sad, all it does is show his limitations as an instructor. A good instructor will be able to tell you when and where those things that he dismisses will matter. When was the last time he taught a class on a range wearing a suit and dress shoes?
I still remember the LA riots and watching Korean-American store owners on rooftops with rifles and shotguns. Just because events are unlikely doesn't mean they're impossible.
Leaveammoforme
06-01-16, 14:17
IKR....The same people that brought you Crazy Ivan and his AK Death Blossom
I'm probably going to burn all my 5.11 stuff this summer. Burn it and piss on the ashes.
My Tru Spec stuff is awesome because it's cook white and comfy so that stays.
Anyways "tactical assholery" is now a beloved term that I shall abuse
Have seen plenty of 5.11 billboards at a carbine matches. One stands out above the rest.
When I gave the "Load and make ready" command he proceeded to make multiple attempts at seating the magazine backwards. I told him to stop screwing around as we had lots of shooters. He looked at me as if I offended him and flipped the magazine around. Charging the rifle and getting to low ready was more of a chore. He admitted later that he didn't "have much time" on an AR.
Maybe he was an accomplished handgun shooter or had a major case of the jitters. Who knows. He definitely didn't perform as I was led to believe from the way he was dressed.
It's fine if a person wants to get all operator'ed up but , it looks really silly when they perform at a JR shooter level.
I was thinking this. I've yet to have a drill where I get up in a dark room in my boxer shorts with the Pomeranian going ape shit.
Not a drill but the real thing... wife's Pomeranian (yes it's true... don't judge) going ape shit at 2 am. Yes I am in shorts with Glock in hand to see,,, mountain lion trying to get through the doggie door. I about crapped my shorts! That's what got me started with carbine at ready. Now the 2 am bears breaking down my fence don't bother me as much.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-01-16, 14:25
One class a guy had one Sordins with a mic on it. The student was an engineer or something and the instructor asks, "Who do you talk to on the mic?". Kind of funny.
Why not more realistic classes? Most shooters have enough trouble drawing and putting rounds on target- plus you can fix that, stupid you can't fix.
One class a guy had one Sordins with a mic on it. The student was an engineer or something and the instructor asks, "Who do you talk to on the mic?". Kind of funny.
Why not more realistic classes? Most shooters have enough trouble drawing and putting rounds on target- plus you can fix that, stupid you can't fix.
FWIW I've used headsets like that to talk on the phone or get my R. Kelly on if I'm shooting on private land and am just zen shooting with a Bolt Action or SP1.
ETA obviously I stop shooting before I talk on the phone
Meh
This nonsense has been going on for 10-15 years at least and IMO is driven mostly by the instructors themselves. They are the ones who show up in 5.11, Oakley, Bates, Camelback, Maxpeditions, the latest Surefire light on their gun, etc.
You get what I mean.
Then there are the students who because they took a few day classes on a one-way range from a celebrity instructor think they are experts in armed combat.
I posted this years ago, enjoy:
TYPES OF PEOPLE YOU MEET AT A TYPICAL AR CARBINE CLASS
Bolt-On Boy - A young guy who has managed to add 10 lbs to his rifle by bolting on every accessory ever made. Close inspection will reveal some are installed backwards, some he does not know what they are for. Most fall off after the first 10 minutes of sustained firing. Spends time after class combing through ground looking for all the gear that fell off.
Camo-Man - A 40-ish guy with mis-matched, worn-out camo, and a beer belly that would make Santa Claus jealous. Generally has no idea how his gun works. Usually tells good stories (even if fake), about ATF encounters, Black Helicopters, etc.
Queenie - Late 20s guy who wants to complete class and still claim his rifle is NIB. Usually has a new Colt rifle, which he tries to fire as little as possible. Gun often malfunctions on first shot because he cannot bring himself to allow the B/C to slam home during load, thus not locking bolt. Easily identified by possession of Colt 6920LE, towel in back pocket to wipe down finish, and constantly checking to see if factory grease is still in gun.
Spec-Ops Guy - This guy is in his late 30s to early 40s, who wants everyone to think he is some kind of former Special Operations Operator. He is smart enough though not to claim any association with any specific agency or operation and thus be called out as a phony. Lack of shooting skills and gun handling techniques give him away every time.
Gear Queer - This is the alter-ego of the Bolt-On Boy. Gear Queer usually has a near-stock rifle, but has every possible piece of tactical clothing or accessory attached to his body, elbow pads, knee pads, Molle pouches, Oakley glasses, 5.11, etc.
Super Trooper - This is an LEO stuck in a boring LEO job, who yearns to be SWAT. Comes to class decked out in his LEO jumpsuit, wearing badge, cuffs, ASP, etc. Usually has poor skills and has trouble hitting the targets. Often shows up with issue gun that is NOT zero'd. Tries to get LE training credit for the class.
Quiet Guy - Ordinary guy in 30s with typical clothing, typical gun. Does not seek out others, but will converse if approached. Often not noticed because his gun works, and he follows instructor directions well and thus does not stand out.
Wannabee - Young guy who aspires to be FBI/HRT, SFOD, SEAL or even LEO/SWAT operator. Has good skills, eager to learn, and would probably do well in one of these positions if selected. However, he has played his life cards incorrectly (knocked up GF, DUI, etc,.) and thus will never achieve his dream.
Franken-Guy - This guy shows up with a rifle in which no two parts are assembled/made by the same company. In some cases he delays start of class as he needs to borrow tools to complete his rifle build, which he only started the night before. Not uncommon for him to have UPS deliver parts to the class to complete his build. Naturally his gun does not work, but he brags about how he saved $50 building it himself, and his gun will run 100%, once he gets the kinks worked out.
That Guy - That guy.
What you call Super Trooper I call a D bag. It's always some doofus.
A hardcore funkateer street police will show up prepared but probably worked the night before and shows up wearing the darkest unironic shades, sucking on a cigarette, and drinking that Java Monster. The kind that is so strong your piss smells like coffee beans. He'll seem antisocial if a bit quiet. Won't matriculate to "normal guy" until day two. Probably will nap during lunch.
Damn right he wants POST credit.
ETA and comfortable shoes. Like Adidas sneaks or something like that.
That was funny Renegade. It's also true, very true.
Outlander Systems
06-01-16, 16:21
Chucks, mah ninja. Chuck T's are the proper footwear. If I ain't on the clock, it's Chuck T time. If I can get away with it on the clock...it's Chuck T time.
ETA: if you're at a class, and see a bad mother****er wearing these and rocking a baja poncho, come bring me your most awesome high five, and top off my Mountain Dew:
http://media.kohlsimg.com/is/image/kohls/2215516?wid=350&hei=350&op_sharpen=1&fmt=jpeg&qlt=85,1&op_sharpen=0&resMode=sharp2&op_usm=1,0.8,6,0&fmt=jpeg&qlt=85,1&op_sharpen=0&resMode=sharp2&op_usm=1,0.8,6,0
Kryptek. If you own ANYTHING Kryptek, you need to reassess your life.
ETA and comfortable shoes. Like Adidas sneaks or something like that.
Sorry, bru.
Adis for me. All day. I either look like a greasy Russian gangster, the sniper from Behind Enemy Lines, or an 80s B Boy depending on weather.
My weakness, however, is girls in Pumas.
But Baja Ponchos, I knew I liked the cut of your jib.
ETA Kryptek also makes you look like you have a horrible skin disease as opposed to looking like an Alien Green Beret
Not a drill but the real thing... wife's Pomeranian (yes it's true... don't judge) going ape shit at 2 am. Yes I am in shorts with Glock in hand to see,,, mountain lion trying to get through the doggie door. I about crapped my shorts! That's what got me started with carbine at ready. Now the 2 am bears breaking down my fence don't bother me as much.
Damn, from the sound of it, if you ever let the Pomeranian outdoors, you must go through, what, two a week?
Outlander Systems
06-01-16, 16:53
No shame in that game. I once had to deal forth a beat down, whilst wearing a velour Puma tracksuit.
I'll concede you some Adidas. I was once a proud rocker of Sambas everywhere I went, but the decline of availability has led me to a semi-boycott.
Baja poncho. Drug rug. Baja hoodie. The names change, but the retro-coziness never does. Nothing says I'm heading off to Babbage's to check out the latest Sierra On-Line PC game, or Sega Genesis release, quite like a Baja.
Kryptek.
For when unissued Multicam isn't gay enough: Kryptek.
OT:
While I disagree with some of the points made by Mr. Spaulding, I agree on others. Overall, run what works FOR YOU.
I don't care what kind of underpants, or watch the Rockstar-Trainer-Of-The-Week, is wearing.
Unless it's a sweet-assed Yellow Visor. And then I'm totally down.
Sorry, bru.
Adis for me. All day. I either look like a greasy Russian gangster, the sniper from Behind Enemy Lines, or an 80s B Boy depending on weather.
My weakness, however, is girls in Pumas.
But Baja Ponchos, I knew I liked the cut of your jib.
ETA Kryptek also makes you look like you have a horrible skin disease as opposed to looking like an Alien Green Beret
Word.
Most of the competent instructors I was ever instructed by wore either
A.) What was cheapest, most comfortable, and abided by dress code of the training center/dept
or
B) Whatever they were given for free.
I know one no-BS guy who rocked an Uncle Mikes EVO holster and said it was purely for instruction/demo. Everyone else must use their duty rig.
But he could shoot, teach, and had a background.
Some Youtube "personality" buys a Sadariland 6004 and acts like it's all that. And Dropleg holsters, IMO, suck.
They shift, ride up, feel weird, bounce when running, and just...no. I like a high ride belt holster.
Stuff that works. I went through patrol rifle with an M16A2 and no ninja crap and came away a bit more enriched than Ricky Ranger struggling with his boat anchor.
A light and a red dot is really all you need in most situations from 0-300.
Extra stuff can make life easier or harder depending on skill or lack thereof. The point is to have knowledge and training that will help you prevail vs an untrained ruffian. Otherwise it's two panicky wackadoos swapping lead until one gets lucky.
Im now starting to feel the need to sell my non issued multicam gear.... damn.
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Outlander Systems
06-01-16, 17:36
Do it!
Multicam sucks. (Unless it's issued)
Im now starting to feel the need to sell my non issued multicam gear.... damn.
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Do it!
Multicam sucks. (Unless it's issued)
Lol. I think what it was is when I started buying kit to figure out what worked and what didn't both multicam and ranger green worked equally well for my location but quality ranger green kit seemed lacking in availability.
Everything we're issued for work is black Which is lame.
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Outlander Systems
06-01-16, 18:48
Roger that.
I ain't trying to beat on anyone for running what they brung.
My Multicam rage is mostly just a good old-fashioned razzing.
But when it comes to Kryptek...
Seriously, no. Shit is gayer than Richard Simmons and Andy Dick jello rasslin'.
Lol. I think what it was is when I started buying kit to figure out what worked and what didn't both multicam and ranger green worked equally well for my location but quality ranger green kit seemed lacking in availability.
Everything we're issued for work is black Which is lame.
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MountainRaven
06-01-16, 19:39
Im now starting to feel the need to sell my non issued multicam gear.... damn.
Do you want Pat Rogers's ghost to vituperate you?
Im now starting to feel the need to sell my non issued multicam gear.... damn.
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Naw homie....Get yo' self some black Rit Dye and be the most tactical ninja you can be with your homemade MC Black
Naw homie....Get yo' self some black Rit Dye and be the most tactical ninja you can be with your homemade MC Black
Think of the YouTube hits I could get. Nutnfancy wouldn't have jack on me
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Chucks, mah ninja. Chuck T's are the proper footwear. If I ain't on the clock, it's Chuck T time. If I can get away with it on the clock...it's Chuck T time.
ETA: if you're at a class, and see a bad mother****er wearing these and rocking a baja poncho, come bring me your most awesome high five, and top off my Mountain Dew:
Kryptek. If you own ANYTHING Kryptek, you need to reassess your life.
You can't tell me this isn't one handsome hat.
http://primaryweapons.com/store/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/kryptek_hat_2.jpg
BuzzinSATX
06-01-16, 21:04
I like Spaulding, but this video is hard to take considering he's pretty much being a hypocrite. Yeah, he makes some good points, but hard to swallow considering he hammers guys who watch you tube videos and he makes a boatload of training videos for Ruger. http://www.ruger.com/videos.html. Go to one of the three "Tactical Tips" series and you will see Mr Spaulding teaching people via video. And now he's saying watching folks like himself on videos is worthless? Is he gonna give Ruger their money back?
sure, there are a lot of clowns on the "Tube", but there are also guys like Hackathorn, PatMac, Lamb, Vickers, et al, who post some solid drills that folks can use to help out.
I agree that classes are best, but there are a lot of third rate assclowns teaching tactical shooting...they aren't creating 'training scars'?
:confused:
I'm still looking for the tactical texting course. There's gotta be a way to walk, talk, drive and text, all while maintaining the awareness and the ability to swiftly defeat any attacker with lethal precision. I can only imagine that the clothing, equipment and accessories used by tier one operators is half the equation, right?
I'm prohibited by federal law from carrying at work, which is the only place I wear a monkey suit. Everywhere else, I wear cargo pants or shorts and a t-shirt. If that ain't kosher, I don't wanna go there. It's not like I like people anyway. So my range gear is you guessed it, cargo pants or shorts and a t-shirt. What other people think? Refer to the 4th sentence in the 2nd paragraph. :)
I ran a defensive pistol class in the Midwest a few years ago and one of the students trashed the course when he completed the course critique at the conclusion of class on day 5. He expected us to teach one man building clearing techniques with grenades and MP5's and expected to hear war stories. He also could not believe that 3 of the 4 instructors wore blue jeans and that the lead instructor (myself) wore a $20 pair of Dickies work pants.
The most memorable comment was "all of the instructors were scarred up old bastards and none of them walked completely upright. They could shoot, but they looked like movie extras from Jurassic Park."
He said that he was bumped up, bruised up, dog tired and could shoot better than ever before, but would never recommend the course to any family and friends.
I guess he thinks all the instructors need to get $80 Charlie Sheen haircuts, manicures, 5.11 pants and Ray Bans. That ain't gonna happen.
I ran a defensive pistol class in the Midwest a few years ago and one of the students trashed the course when he completed the course critique at the conclusion of class on day 5. He expected us to teach one man building clearing techniques with grenades and MP5's and expected to hear war stories. He also could not believe that 3 of the 4 instructors wore blue jeans and that the lead instructor (myself) wore a $20 pair of Dickies work pants.
The most memorable comment was "all of the instructors were scarred up old bastards and none of them walked completely upright. They could shoot, but they looked like movie extras from Jurassic Park."
He said that he was bumped up, bruised up, dog tired and could shoot better than ever before, but would never recommend the course to any family and friends.
I guess he thinks all the instructors need to get $80 Charlie Sheen haircuts, manicures, 5.11 pants and Ray Bans. That ain't gonna happen.
Word.
I think Dave has a great point, and it's aimed more at the internet audience than the guys who actually get out with instructors other than him.
I've come across dozens of guys in Crye pants, with US Optics scopes on KAC carbines who struggled to zero their rifle from the prone. They've got a pretty impressive post count though, and aren't shy about telling you your Streamlight WML is un-sat for hard use.
We all know what he's talking about, and it's been going on for years.
5 years ago I was at a class on USTC where some dude wanted to shoot in flight gloves wearing a cammelbak, with closed top MOLLE mag pouches on his belt for a 3 day pistol class. Said dude was last place in every drill, but didn't want to take his gloves or hydro pouch off, either.
Some of the hardest shooting dudes I've shot with and learned from ran about as close to slick as it gets... and they deployed in multicam plenty in their prior lives.
There are reasons to have a plate carrier, and reasons to have pants that make your range trips more comfortable and convenient... but Dave is spot on in that too many people are chasing likes on social media with their cool guy kit, and not actually getting out and developing/maintaining proficiency with firearms in a manor consistent with their potential usage.
Damn, from the sound of it, if you ever let the Pomeranian outdoors, you must go through, what, two a week?
Nah, that Pom's pretty damned smart. She brings her 120 lb big brother Airedale in tow. Nothing f's with the Airedale. Nothing. Not the neighbors GSD nor my sons dobie. Ok the dobie tried once and got his ass kicked bad.
Reading this thread and the OP is making me feel like I'm completely out of touch. I don't have any idea who these supposed "rock star internet" guys are. I only recognize about half the gear names you guys are throwing around, and I don't think I own any of it, and I had no idea the "training industry" was so huge that we'd need youtube videos to complain about the training industry.
I've been to one main school. Been going there since '96. My instructor is/was also a Gunsite instructor, so he invited a bunch of his students to do a 5 day class there, and that was a blast. Did a shotgun class with Scotty Reitz too, but that is about it for my training school worldiness.
I don't know man. I just wear my usual shorts and t-shirt to the range. Sometimes my shorts are camo, but I have no idea what type of camo a more knowledgable person would call it. JC Penny camo? Sometimes I'll throw on my $15 pair of knee pads if we are going to be practicing shooting positions because my range is covered in rock that will leave you bloody the first time you take a knee. I'll usually wear a hat too, but I don't know who makes it. BCM sent me a free hat when I bought an upper a few years ago. Does that qualify as "tacticool" if I wear it on the range?
I guess my fear is that I'm one of those range dummies you guys are talking about, and just don't realize it. Maybe I'm the quiet guy who doesn't get noticed? I show up on time and my gun is already built and zeroed. My gear runs like it is supposed to, and I shoot when I'm told to shoot and holster when I'm told to holster. It seems like most of the other students on the range are doing the same thing as me. I don't understand what all the fuss is about.
Can someone tell me? Am I "that guy"?
Moose-Knuckle
06-02-16, 03:52
Saw that weeks ago when Panteao first posted it on their YouTube channel.
It's pretty cliché, preaching to the choir, ten years too late, and yeah the guy gets paid to wait for it . . . wait for it . . . MAKE VIDEOS. :lazy2:
I'm more of a Pat Mac guy myself, also from Panteao . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi6LqWGi79g
Outlander Systems
06-02-16, 07:34
Negative homie.
"That guy" is the YouTube celebrity, the Range Ninja in full Multicam (including Ops Core helmet), The Gear-Queer, and other various goofballs.
My only real gripe with his commentary was his insinuation on the uselessness of carbine training, but generally I'm in agreement with everything he said. Opinions are like assholes, but generally he's right.
If I want carbine training, I want it from someone with a .mil background.
If I want pistol training, I want it from a copper or an IPSC stud.
Reading this thread and the OP is making me feel like I'm completely out of touch. I don't have any idea who these supposed "rock star internet" guys are. I only recognize about half the gear names you guys are throwing around, and I don't think I own any of it, and I had no idea the "training industry" was so huge that we'd need youtube videos to complain about the training industry.
I've been to one main school. Been going there since '96. My instructor is/was also a Gunsite instructor, so he invited a bunch of his students to do a 5 day class there, and that was a blast. Did a shotgun class with Scotty Reitz too, but that is about it for my training school worldiness.
I don't know man. I just wear my usual shorts and t-shirt to the range. Sometimes my shorts are camo, but I have no idea what type of camo a more knowledgable person would call it. JC Penny camo? Sometimes I'll throw on my $15 pair of knee pads if we are going to be practicing shooting positions because my range is covered in rock that will leave you bloody the first time you take a knee. I'll usually wear a hat too, but I don't know who makes it. BCM sent me a free hat when I bought an upper a few years ago. Does that qualify as "tacticool" if I wear it on the range?
I guess my fear is that I'm one of those range dummies you guys are talking about, and just don't realize it. Maybe I'm the quiet guy who doesn't get noticed? I show up on time and my gun is already built and zeroed. My gear runs like it is supposed to, and I shoot when I'm told to shoot and holster when I'm told to holster. It seems like most of the other students on the range are doing the same thing as me. I don't understand what all the fuss is about.
Can someone tell me? Am I "that guy"?
sevenhelmet
06-02-16, 08:44
Awesome! I want to take a class from a guy like that, not some "cool guy".
Nah, that Pom's pretty damned smart. She brings her 120 lb big brother Airedale in tow. Nothing f's with the Airedale. Nothing. Not the neighbors GSD nor my sons dobie. Ok the dobie tried once and got his ass kicked bad.
Going astray here, but about that Airedale, composure-wise, is yours okay with backyard exercise and a good walk two to three times a week? Grooming: a brush about twice a week, or do you need more?
I'm a boxer guy, currently have a Lab and a Chessie-mix at home. The Airedale has always been a dog I like the looks of.
Reading this thread and the OP is making me feel like I'm completely out of touch. I don't have any idea who these supposed "rock star internet" guys are. I only recognize about half the gear names you guys are throwing around, and I don't think I own any of it, and I had no idea the "training industry" was so huge that we'd need youtube videos to complain about the training industry.
I've been to one main school. Been going there since '96. My instructor is/was also a Gunsite instructor, so he invited a bunch of his students to do a 5 day class there, and that was a blast. Did a shotgun class with Scotty Reitz too, but that is about it for my training school worldiness.
I don't know man. I just wear my usual shorts and t-shirt to the range. Sometimes my shorts are camo, but I have no idea what type of camo a more knowledgable person would call it. JC Penny camo? Sometimes I'll throw on my $15 pair of knee pads if we are going to be practicing shooting positions because my range is covered in rock that will leave you bloody the first time you take a knee. I'll usually wear a hat too, but I don't know who makes it. BCM sent me a free hat when I bought an upper a few years ago. Does that qualify as "tacticool" if I wear it on the range?
I guess my fear is that I'm one of those range dummies you guys are talking about, and just don't realize it. Maybe I'm the quiet guy who doesn't get noticed? I show up on time and my gun is already built and zeroed. My gear runs like it is supposed to, and I shoot when I'm told to shoot and holster when I'm told to holster. It seems like most of the other students on the range are doing the same thing as me. I don't understand what all the fuss is about.
Can someone tell me? Am I "that guy"?
I don't think so.
Actually, my take is more along the line that Spaulding was taking aim at not only the 'internet ninja' but the instructors who seem to go out of their way to encourage the fascination with getting all kitted up.
My only real gripe with his commentary was his insinuation on the uselessness of carbine training, but generally I'm in agreement with everything he said. Opinions are like assholes, but generally he's right.
Dave Spaulding doesn't think carbine is useless....he trains a lot of cops and many of them have a carbine in the trunk of their squad. For civilians though, I agree with his sentiment that a carbine is pretty useless for the general run of civilian self-defense encounters. I take a carbine course from some big name almost every year but I can't envision any kind of likely scenario where I'd need a rifle to defend my life, as opposed to the pistol that I carry on my belt most of the time.
As to gear, this thread is kind of interesting as everyone scrambles to prove that they're not "that guy" by recounting their "training gear" as being tennis shoes, blue jeans, and carrying their gun in a paper bag.
The cranyky old man reverse elitism is sad, all it does is show his limitations as an instructor. A good instructor will be able to tell you when and where those things that he dismisses will matter. When was the last time he taught a class on a range wearing a suit and dress shoes?
I still remember the LA riots and watching Korean-American store owners on rooftops with rifles and shotguns. Just because events are unlikely doesn't mean they're impossible.
Agreed... probably some valid points regarding YouTube and forums, but my read is many (not all) training courses are essentially adult fantasy camps for any who are not active Leo or military.
Not that the learned skills are bad, but....
I don't see many scenarios for me that start with "let me put my battle belt and PC on"
Then again, that's zackly what he'd say a forum denizen would say! 😀
Boxers, yipping dogs, bleary eyed, wife questioning my concern... that's my real world. Then I'd step barefoot on a Lego and jam my toe on something in the hall that's not supposed to be there
While I understand the point - and yes there are some extreme cases out there...probably a lot more than I'm even aware of...
What about the fact that a lot of the tactical gear - is actually just outdoors gear that has been adopted by many of the elite.
I've had a Suunto Core since I think they were released. I bought it as I needed a good watch for backcountry riding(compass, altimeter, etc).
I've had Salomon and/or keen hiking shoes and boots for most of my life.
Same goes for hiking pants, oakleys, oh yeah and the beard I've had since 18.
All of this because I like and grew up in the outdoors and yes a lot of it works very well when shooting/doing almost anything outdoors.
Not all of this stuff is Tacticool - some is just flat out practical.
This happens in all arenas though...not just shooting. People often want the best and coolest gear regardless of what they're doing.
For me, I enjoy shooting and I'll do some 2 gun and 3 gun stuff as it gives me a chance to do more than stand at the range and shoot a target.
But to do it, you need gear of some sort...can't just cram all your mags in your pockets.
As I started getting into this, I looked at a lot of options and a battle belt with a few tacos and an rti hanger seemed like a much more practical setup than all the racer/gamer type of gear/holsters etc...
While I will wear jeans occasionally, they are definitely not the most comfortable option especially in the summer.
I think the bigger issue would be people claiming to be something they're not...
A lot of what he said makes perfect sense and using what works best for you is key. Who cares what XYZ uses.
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Agreed... probably some valid points regarding YouTube and forums, but my read is many (not all) training courses are essentially adult fantasy camps for any who are not active Leo or military.
Not that the learned skills are bad, but....
I don't see many scenarios for me that start with "let me put my battle belt and PC on"
Then again, that's zackly what he'd say a forum denizen would say! ��
Boxers, yipping dogs, bleary eyed, wife questioning my concern... that's my real world. Then I'd step barefoot on a Lego and jam my toe on something in the hall that's not supposed to be there
I agree. For me, carbine courses are pretty much just that....fantasy camps. Everybody needs a hobby, and I hate golf. And it doesn't really depend on the instructor...I've taken carbine courses from Larry Vickers, Jeff Gonzales, Greg Sullivan, and this year is Steve Fischer. They're very interesting and usually a lot of fun. I do at least one a year. Just for fun. Apparel-wise, I generally wear the Prana climbing pants I wear to work every day. And I'm the one guy in the class that doesn't have a super-cool folding knife in my off-hand pocket, nor do I have an "IFAK" with a blood-type patch on my Uncle Mike's instructor belt.
Pistol...for me, that's more serious. If I ever have a need to defend my life with lethal force it's going to be with a pistol, not a rifle. Since I occasionally carry a pistol in public, I want to be able to use it effectively in the extraordinarily unlikely event that it would ever come up. Some instructors are better than others. Dave Spaulding is a good one, but it would be just as practical, maybe even more so, taking such instruction from my buddy who's the firearms trainer for the local PD.
Outlander Systems
06-02-16, 10:13
Amen.
Pistol...for me, that's more serious. If I ever have a need to defend my life with lethal force it's going to be with a pistol, not a rifle. Since I occasionally carry a pistol in public, I want to be able to use it effectively in the extraordinarily unlikely event that it would ever come up. Some instructors are better than others. Dave Spaulding is a good one, but it would be just as practical, maybe even more so, taking such instruction from my buddy who's the firearms trainer for the local PD.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-02-16, 11:28
Agreed... probably some valid points regarding YouTube and forums, but my read is many (not all) training courses are essentially adult fantasy camps for any who are not active Leo or military.
Not that the learned skills are bad, but....
I don't see many scenarios for me that start with "let me put my battle belt and PC on"
Then again, that's zackly what he'd say a forum denizen would say! ��
Boxers, yipping dogs, bleary eyed, wife questioning my concern... that's my real world. Then I'd step barefoot on a Lego and jam my toe on something in the hall that's not supposed to be there
As long as we don't go full realistic with the boxers and tshirt.
How many classes run in darkness or lowlight? Hell, get you running to get the heart rate up. That would be a start.
For whatever you think of the MAgpul training, Chris and Travis were always up front about it being a weapons manipulation class, not a tactics class.
Meh
This nonsense has been going on for 10-15 years at least and IMO is driven mostly by the instructors themselves. They are the ones who show up in 5.11, Oakley, Bates, Camelback, Maxpeditions, the latest Surefire light on their gun, etc.
You get what I mean.
Then there are the students who because they took a few day classes on a one-way range from a celebrity instructor think they are experts in armed combat.
I posted this years ago, enjoy:
TYPES OF PEOPLE YOU MEET AT A TYPICAL AR CARBINE CLASS
Bolt-On Boy - A young guy who has managed to add 10 lbs to his rifle by bolting on every accessory ever made. Close inspection will reveal some are installed backwards, some he does not know what they are for. Most fall off after the first 10 minutes of sustained firing. Spends time after class combing through ground looking for all the gear that fell off.
Camo-Man - A 40-ish guy with mis-matched, worn-out camo, and a beer belly that would make Santa Claus jealous. Generally has no idea how his gun works. Usually tells good stories (even if fake), about ATF encounters, Black Helicopters, etc.
Queenie - Late 20s guy who wants to complete class and still claim his rifle is NIB. Usually has a new Colt rifle, which he tries to fire as little as possible. Gun often malfunctions on first shot because he cannot bring himself to allow the B/C to slam home during load, thus not locking bolt. Easily identified by possession of Colt 6920LE, towel in back pocket to wipe down finish, and constantly checking to see if factory grease is still in gun.
Spec-Ops Guy - This guy is in his late 30s to early 40s, who wants everyone to think he is some kind of former Special Operations Operator. He is smart enough though not to claim any association with any specific agency or operation and thus be called out as a phony. Lack of shooting skills and gun handling techniques give him away every time.
Gear Queer - This is the alter-ego of the Bolt-On Boy. Gear Queer usually has a near-stock rifle, but has every possible piece of tactical clothing or accessory attached to his body, elbow pads, knee pads, Molle pouches, Oakley glasses, 5.11, etc.
Super Trooper - This is an LEO stuck in a boring LEO job, who yearns to be SWAT. Comes to class decked out in his LEO jumpsuit, wearing badge, cuffs, ASP, etc. Usually has poor skills and has trouble hitting the targets. Often shows up with issue gun that is NOT zero'd. Tries to get LE training credit for the class.
Quiet Guy - Ordinary guy in 30s with typical clothing, typical gun. Does not seek out others, but will converse if approached. Often not noticed because his gun works, and he follows instructor directions well and thus does not stand out.
Wannabee - Young guy who aspires to be FBI/HRT, SFOD, SEAL or even LEO/SWAT operator. Has good skills, eager to learn, and would probably do well in one of these positions if selected. However, he has played his life cards incorrectly (knocked up GF, DUI, etc,.) and thus will never achieve his dream.
Franken-Guy - This guy shows up with a rifle in which no two parts are assembled/made by the same company. In some cases he delays start of class as he needs to borrow tools to complete his rifle build, which he only started the night before. Not uncommon for him to have UPS deliver parts to the class to complete his build. Naturally his gun does not work, but he brags about how he saved $50 building it himself, and his gun will run 100%, once he gets the kinks worked out.
That Guy - That guy.
Holy shit that is spot on! Thanks for the laugh.
I'm the "quiet guy". That being said- I have from time to time trained kitted up; never at a training class, just out in the woods by myself or with my wife. Gotta try it out to see how things work and how I work, etc.
I've always been a fan of observing people- people watching if you will. Nothing beats gun related events or gun shops for entertainment value if you are a people watcher. Gun shows, gun range, gun stores, training classes- you see so much funny shit, and hear so much moronic bullshit, it's just too great. Gun shows especially- the weirdos come out of the woodwork and the BS is epic.
skijunkie55
06-02-16, 14:00
I probably fall into the wannabee category during larger carbine classes. I wear a plate carrier because it was free, it offers protection, it's easy access to mags, and I only recently bought a HSGI "battle belt." Do I really care if I look like a wanna be tacticool guy? meh. I'm not wearing it to look like SOF elite sniper ranger devgru spaceship gunner. Do I have a little bit of paranoia regarding the proficiency level and mental state of the other 23 people at this class?? Absolutely. I know it is the instructors' / school's job to thoroughly vet these people that sign up to make sure they're not psycho, but if Murphy's law has taught me anything, it's that stupid stuff can and will happen.
Judge away internet and fellow class mates. At the end of the day I'd prefer to not take a ricochet to the chest (been there, done that.)
Outlander Systems
06-02-16, 14:31
The most cogent argument for PC's in class, is that, 90%, I have NO IDEA who the **** I'm shooting with, or what their level of training is.
I probably fall into the wannabee category during larger carbine classes. I wear a plate carrier because it was free, it offers protection, it's easy access to mags, and I only recently bought a HSGI "battle belt." Do I really care if I look like a wanna be tacticool guy? meh. I'm not wearing it to look like SOF elite sniper ranger devgru spaceship gunner. Do I have a little bit of paranoia regarding the proficiency level and mental state of the other 23 people at this class?? Absolutely. I know it is the instructors' / school's job to thoroughly vet these people that sign up to make sure they're not psycho, but if Murphy's law has taught me anything, it's that stupid stuff can and will happen.
Judge away internet and fellow class mates. At the end of the day I'd prefer to not take a ricochet to the chest (been there, done that.)
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-02-16, 14:50
My Larue hat is one of the few baseball caps that fit my odd head, like a chick who finds jeans that make her ass look good. But I can't wear it in public because I don't want to be that guy. Then I feel even dumber wearing it to the range.
My Larue hat is one of the few baseball caps that fit my odd head, like a chick who finds jeans that make her ass look good. But I can't wear it in public because I don't want to be that guy. Then I feel even dumber wearing it to the range.
Just wear it bro, don't be that dude that doesn't rock something that fits because of how you think others may perceive you. I rock a BCM hat all the time because it actually fits my sputnik of a head and I rarely find other ball caps that do. Virtually no one knows what BCM is anyways and those who do are usually people who frequent this site or gun dudes anyways.
People always ask me if it is a "Baylor College of Medicine" hat, lots of surgeons went to school their and I always seem to run into them.
My Larue hat is one of the few baseball caps that fit my odd head, like a chick who finds jeans that make her ass look good. But I can't wear it in public because I don't want to be that guy. Then I feel even dumber wearing it to the range.
I wore my LaRue hat till it fell apart. Most comfortable hat I owned. Screw what other people think. They can go find a safe place and suck on a turd for all I care.
Outlander Systems
06-02-16, 15:54
And you, Sir, have won the thread.
I wore my LaRue hat till it fell apart. Most comfortable hat I owned. Screw what other people think. They can go find a safe place and suck on a turd for all I care.
My Larue hat is one of the few baseball caps that fit my odd head, like a chick who finds jeans that make her ass look good. But I can't wear it in public because I don't want to be that guy. Then I feel even dumber wearing it to the range.
I wear mine every single day since my Arc BAC finally fell apart. It's started some interesting conversations at guitar stores, getting groceries, etc.
**** anyone else's opinion of who you are and what you do. I'm not going to justify myself to some fat slob in a class who probably hasn't been able to see his own dick in a decade, let alone someone I'll never meet from the internet.
ramairthree
06-02-16, 16:18
Meh,
**** him.
What is the average rounds fired to hits we hear about in LEO shootings?
I get some of the points,
But what I get the gist of is,
"Cops used to be the go to instructors and people used to buy my VHS mail order instruction tapes,
But now they want SOF combat vet instructors."
You can have an operator OTC cadre that is an asshole and a shitty instructor.
You can have a cop that is a natural instructor and great at it.
But at the end of the day someone that passes a SOF pipeline that fails 50% or more of young males already fit enough for military service is a different cross section of quality density than you are going to get from guys that can't put that on their shingle. And having a bunch of objectives under their belt is another factor.
Eurodriver
06-02-16, 16:28
Just wear it bro, don't be that dude that doesn't rock something that fits because of how you think others may perceive you. I rock a BCM hat all the time because it actually fits my sputnik of a head and I rarely find other ball caps that do. Virtually no one knows what BCM is anyways and those who do are usually people who frequent this site or gun dudes anyways.
People always ask me if it is a "Baylor College of Medicine" hat, lots of surgeons went to school their and I always seem to run into them.
Nah fam. I refuse to wear gun kit out in public. Mark doesn't pay me to advertise - neither does Paul. I appreciate the free hats, bumper stickers, t-shirts (I actually have rocked an M4C shirt that Grant threw in with a 6920 for free in full disclosure ;) ) but I'm not going to be that guy. Caring about what other people think of us is what separates us from hoodlums and apes.
I wont lie. I've worn body armor during a class when it wasn't required. I looked like 50 Cent as I wore it over my T shirt.
Why? Because sadly not all, nor even most, police are Force sensitive Jedi Masters with their weapons and I don't really want to die because Hooks was having a brainfart.
But if you're looking like a ninja turtle at a pretty basic course, yeah that's lame.
As to hats...if it's comfy, I wear it. Until it literally falls apart I wear it. I still have a 5.11 black hat that is almost faded purple gray and has a respectable sweat band around it.
Outlander Systems
06-02-16, 16:59
Duuuuude.
You should see the conversations my BangBros T-Shirt starts.
Best. Ice. Breaker. Ever.
On the realskis though, there were some local vehicle robberies that were specifically targeted from gun stickers on the vehicles. It's a when to, when not to, kinda sorta thing.
I wear mine every single day since my Arc BAC finally fell apart. It's started some interesting conversations at guitar stores, getting groceries, etc.
**** anyone else's opinion of who you are and what you do. I'm not going to justify myself to some fat slob in a class who probably hasn't been able to see his own dick in a decade, let alone someone I'll never meet from the internet.
Haha, bangbros.... that's great.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
Outlander Systems
06-02-16, 17:23
i once had to inform my wife that every male under the age of 50 knows what BB is.
Haha, bangbros.... that's great.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
Duuuuude.
You should see the conversations my BangBros T-Shirt starts.
Best. Ice. Breaker. Ever.
On the realskis though, there were some local vehicle robberies that were specifically targeted from gun stickers on the vehicles. It's a when to, when not to, kinda sorta thing.
Interdasting. I used to(still do) wear some far out shirts.
And yeah oorah gunstickers will get your car broke into. Same with Blue Line stickers.
Don't put anything interesting on your car lest you catch a wandering eye
Only stickers on my car are the base decal and rank insignia.
My fifth wheel on the other hand... Well let's not go there. (But BCM does show up by the MooseDrool sticker)
I totally rock a LaRue hat. That hat cost me three thousand dollars. I mean, it came with a free OBR but still. I don't own any other hats, so when I need a ball cap, it's what I use.
I also own a PC. It's a Crye JPC and you better believe it its MultiCam. Why? Why the hell not. Do I need it? Hell no, I just wanted it for no real reason. Fast forward a few months and I sign up for a CQB class and guess what, we need bady armor for you know, just in case someone cocks it all up and we are all standing in close proximity to each other. Well, it's a good thing I had my own cause the loaners were XL. I would have slid out the neck. So hey, I guess I used it once lol.
And that class was totally a fantasy camp. When the hell am I going to stack up and clear a series of room? Never, but it was fun as hell.
Outlander Systems
06-02-16, 18:13
Don't forget, the 2A allows you to keep and BEAR arms. Not just keep.
Every red-blooded American male has a duty to know how to run a rifle. Period.
If that grates on anyone's nerves, there's plenty of Socialist hellholes that will gladly be more in-line with your attitude.
I totally rock a LaRue hat. That hat cost me three thousand dollars. I mean, it came with a free OBR but still. I don't own any other hats, so when I need a ball cap, it's what I use.
I also own a PC. It's a Crye JPC and you better believe it its MultiCam. Why? Why the hell not. Do I need it? Hell no, I just wanted it for no real reason. Fast forward a few months and I sign up for a CQB class and guess what, we need bady armor for you know, just in case someone cocks it all up and we are all standing in close proximity to each other. Well, it's a good thing I had my own cause the loaners were XL. I would have slid out the neck. So hey, I guess I used it once lol.
And that class was totally a fantasy camp. When the hell am I going to stack up and clear a series of room? Never, but it was fun as hell.
Interdasting. I used to(still do) wear some far out shirts.
And yeah oorah gunstickers will get your car broke into. Same with Blue Line stickers.
Don't put anything interesting on your car lest you catch a wandering eye
This is the only sticker on my Jeep:
http://www.redbubble.com/people/8rave5hit/works/22025336-giant-meteor-2016-just-end-it-already?p=sticker&ref=work_carousel_work_recommendation
An hour ago, the checkout girl at Publix asked me why I'm wearing two diabetes bracelets. Given most people are so ****ing clueless to even know what a KIA memorial bracelet is, I doubt they grasp what my ballcap is.
sevenhelmet
06-02-16, 18:44
Only stickers on my car are the base decal and rank insignia.
My fifth wheel on the other hand... Well let's not go there. (But BCM does show up by the MooseDrool sticker)
You still have a base sticker? I thought those were phased out DoD-wide...
This is the only sticker on my Jeep:
http://www.redbubble.com/people/8rave5hit/works/22025336-giant-meteor-2016-just-end-it-already?p=sticker&ref=work_carousel_work_recommendation
An hour ago, the checkout girl at Publix asked me why I'm wearing two diabetes bracelets. Given most people are so ****ing clueless to even know what a KIA memorial bracelet is, I doubt they grasp what my ballcap is.
Ooh! I can see myself getting one of those.
I knicked one of these a while back. Not on my whip but certainly emblazoned in my little personal hobby area
http://www.cafepress.com/rightwingstuff/9209128
Outlander Systems
06-02-16, 18:50
SMOD. Sweet God, I pray for SMOD.
This is the only sticker on my Jeep:
http://www.redbubble.com/people/8rave5hit/works/22025336-giant-meteor-2016-just-end-it-already?p=sticker&ref=work_carousel_work_recommendation
An hour ago, the checkout girl at Publix asked me why I'm wearing two diabetes bracelets. Given most people are so ****ing clueless to even know what a KIA memorial bracelet is, I doubt they grasp what my ballcap is.
My GOD that's glorious!
Ooh! I can see myself getting one of those.
I knicked one of these a while back. Not on my whip but certainly emblazoned in my little personal hobby area
http://www.cafepress.com/rightwingstuff/9209128
https://youtu.be/iYGFDZkTWCk
I'm confused...so he doesn't want me to buy his pistol sights? I jest I jest
But when it comes to Kryptek...
Seriously, no. Shit is gayer than Richard Simmons and Andy Dick jello rasslin'.Hey now don't knock my Kryptek. Picked up a stock for half the price of the FDE one.
EL OOOOH EL.
I like Spaulding, but this video is hard to take considering he's pretty much being a hypocrite. Yeah, he makes some good points, but hard to swallow considering he hammers guys who watch you tube videos and he makes a boatload of training videos for Ruger. http://www.ruger.com/videos.html. Go to one of the three "Tactical Tips" series and you will see Mr Spaulding teaching people via video. And now he's saying watching folks like himself on videos is worthless? Is he gonna give Ruger their money back?
sure, there are a lot of clowns on the "Tube", but there are also guys like Hackathorn, PatMac, Lamb, Vickers, et al, who post some solid drills that folks can use to help out.
I agree that classes are best, but there are a lot of third rate assclowns teaching tactical shooting...they aren't creating 'training scars'?
:confused:
Moose-Knuckle
06-03-16, 01:29
Meh,
**** him.
What is the average rounds fired to hits we hear about in LEO shootings?
I get some of the points,
But what I get the gist of is,
"Cops used to be the go to instructors and people used to buy my VHS mail order instruction tapes,
But now they want SOF combat vet instructors."
You can have an operator OTC cadre that is an asshole and a shitty instructor.
You can have a cop that is a natural instructor and great at it.
But at the end of the day someone that passes a SOF pipeline that fails 50% or more of young males already fit enough for military service is a different cross section of quality density than you are going to get from guys that can't put that on their shingle. And having a bunch of objectives under their belt is another factor.
LOL IRL . . .
Damn dude you really need to post more!
When I watched the video I couldn't help but place the palms of my hands upon my face when he went into "MIL don't use handguns us LEO do" schtick. We have former MIL trainers like LAV, Pat Mac, Mike Pannone, etc. who have spent years in shoot houses working handguns. I knew an 18_ that stated it wasn't out of the norm to spend eight hour days shooting 1911's and had the thumb callus to prove it.
Strong words from an angry young man.
Many cogent points were made. Not enough cursing though.
He's aboslutely right. If someone comes in on me they'll likely encounter a pissed off, butt nekkid man wielding some kinda carbine. Otherwise, yeah, pistol and a spare mag or two.
People need to go back to good, old honest work instead of SEAL team 6 cosplay or who can wear the most expensive/obscure clothes or mannery like it was senior prom or something
Yeah that. The video was pretty refreshing, although he did fall back on the "training scar" lingo after having just dismissed it. There were some minor debatable points but they were minor so I won't debate them.
I think the root problem is the narcissism of the average shooter who believes you must be a Delta operator to teach them anything relevant that they don't already know. Back in the early 80s my father was taking me to LFI courses and while it was a ton of useful information, even then I realized I would probably never be in a situation where I needed all of these "next level" shooting skills.
There was a time I actually took offense to teachers and facilities that offered separate "civie", "law enforcement" and "military" programs. I felt like they were keeping the "really cool stuff" from us. I'd see them doing "team drills" in the shoot house and think "Man, I've got to start practicing that stuff with my buddies...and I did." We found somebody who knew that stuff and we learned the basics and drilled it regularly.
Then one day I realized I'm never going to "deploy" with my buddies. If I'm out and about and run into trouble, I'm not going to have my "entry team" with me. If somebody is messing with my house, I'm not going to light the Bat signal and have my crew show up. I spent a lot of time learning and practicing things I will never, ever need because I don't kick doors for a living.
I really was operating under a seriously far fetched delusion that "just in case" society ever totally collapsed we would have the skills to take on enemy invaders, roving gangs / rioters and other "rogue" elements of society. It was a lot of fun, but it would have been more practical to prepare myself to be President of the United States because statistically that is far more likely to happen and that is never going to happen.
A long time ago, when I lived in a very bad part of Ft. Lauderdale and was having regular confrontations with local gangs and drug dealers that resulted in quite a few "weapons drawn" incidents and holding people at gunpoint on my property while I waited for the police to arrive, a Ft. Lauderdale cop who at this point was more than a little familiar with my situation happened to mention that I "likely had more real world firearms and confrontation experience" than a lot of cops working. I had never really considered that.
But even with all that, and seriously weekly confrontations with criminal elements, I still never needed half the things I was taught at LFI growing up. When you are actually doing it, you don't go beyond the basics and you're much more concerned with keeping track of who is doing what than if you can do a good roll over prone shooting position.
I really was operating under a seriously far fetched delusion that "just in case" society ever totally collapsed we would have the skills to take on enemy invaders, roving gangs / rioters and other "rogue" elements of society. It was a lot of fun, but it would have been more practical to prepare myself to be President of the United States because statistically that is far more likely to happen and that is never going to happen.
If everybody realized that, this forum would have about 50 members.
Outlander Systems
06-03-16, 07:00
Steyr, you should do it for the sake of Bushido.
No other justification needed.
Couple thoughts on the video as a training junky and former VSM instructor and NRA instructor.
1. The Military DOES use pistols (as a primary offensive and defensive weapon).
2. The best pistol shooters (I have seen) come out of the USA and USMC (not LE).
3. Most LE (Local and State) are horribly under trained, not good shooters and typically survive gun fights NOT because of their skill with a handgun.
The last LE/MIL CQB class I attended, I wore jeans and shorts. No mag pouches, no helmet, no chest rig and NO MC! Why? I am a Civy. While I have all the "Ninja gear," I probably won't have access to it when I need to use a gun. I look at all that gear as more end of days type stuff (better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it). I am sure the other students in the class snickered at my lack of Tactical-Coolness (as they were all decked out in MC, Helmets, IR lasers and NVG's). What matters most is ones ability to affectively move through the building getting good hits. How you look is irrelevant. This is a hard concept for both Civy's and some LE to realize.
Learning via the "errornet." Yes, you can learn things by watching a GOOD instructor teach something (I know I have). I think Mr. Spaulding is correct in that you will grow (much faster) as a shooter under quality instruction.
The next myth that many folks have (Civy's, LE and Mil) is that you can only learn something from a HSLD type (beard and wrap around glasses). This simply isn't true. Tier 1 units bring in Civy's all the time to teach them shooting skills (even though they have never fired a single round in combat).
One of the things that irritates me to no end is when I see someone in an advanced class (Vehicle, CQB, moving and shooting, night fighting, etc) when what they really need is a LEVEL 1 class with a strong foundation in marksmanship. No one wants to take marksmanship classes (as they just aren't sexy). Some of the worst instructors I have seen for learning the fundamentals are HSLD types. Some of the best instructors I have seen for fundamentals are lowly NRA and VSM instructors. People would do themselves a huge service by getting the training they NEED, not what they want.
Last bit of advice to students about selecting instructors. There are a BUNCH of what I call "theory based" instructors teaching nowadays. Students would be wise to look at an instructors background and see if they have the correct "work" experience to be teaching what they are. For me, I want to receive training from someone that was actually taught by the DoD or Federal Govt. (and did said job for a living). I am not talking about marksmanship classes. I am talking about CQB, Vehicle ops, Night Fighting, etc.
YMMV.
C4
Nah fam. I refuse to wear gun kit out in public. Mark doesn't pay me to advertise - neither does Paul. I appreciate the free hats, bumper stickers, t-shirts (I actually have rocked an M4C shirt that Grant threw in with a 6920 for free in full disclosure ;) ) but I'm not going to be that guy. Caring about what other people think of us is what separates us from hoodlums and apes.
As a gun dealer (that gets clothes, stickers, etc) for free at an alarming rate, there are NO gun stickers allowed on ANY of my vehicles. I do not wear ANY gun type clothing out in public (and rarely in classes either). In fact, I rarely even wear "gun" branded clothing in my own store!
Why? Appearing to be un-armed (victim) gives you way more advantages than appearing "armed and dangerous."
C4
Steyr, you should do it for the sake of Bushido.
No other justification needed.
Adding to that, there are many things we learn in life that we'll never actually use. It's part of being a well rounded person. Learning and practicing all that info may give you the basis for making recommendations to others that will help them. I like to learn the capabilities, tech specs and history of cars that I may drive once in a lifetime and never actually own, just because I enjoy it. I enjoy shooting and working with various firearms under differing conditions, because static shooting at short ranges under ideal conditions with the same gun every time is the most boring form of shooting.
You're not less because you learned something you'll never use. You still learned what might not be practical and that gives you an informed basis for moving toward what might be.
Outlander Systems
06-03-16, 10:44
Astute points.
Rob Leatham is an example of this:
Tier 1 units bring in Civy's all the time to teach them shooting skills (even though they have never fired a single round in combat).
If everybody realized that, this forum would have about 50 members.
Actually, this forum is much more comprised of logical thinking LE and Mil (active duty, retired, etc). The airsofters, doomsday prepares, etc live on BARFCOM and LF.
C4
Astute points.
Rob Leatham is an example of this:
Absolutely... LAV talked about how Mr. Leatham taught him a thing or two.
You still have a base sticker? I thought those were phased out DoD-wide...
Yes, but I hold onto my cars for awhile. ;-)
LOL IRL . . .
Damn dude you really need to post more!
When I watched the video I couldn't help but place the palms of my hands upon my face when he went into "MIL don't use handguns us LEO do" schtick. We have former MIL trainers like LAV, Pat Mac, Mike Pannone, etc. who have spent years in shoot houses working handguns. I knew an 18_ that stated it wasn't out of the norm to spend eight hour days shooting 1911's and had the thumb callus to prove it.
Not to mention, when LAV brushes up on his technique, he works with Rob Leatham.
ETA... Of course this was already mentioned.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Actually, this forum is much more comprised of logical thinking LE and Mil (active duty, retired, etc). The airsofters, doomsday prepares, etc live on BARFCOM and LF.
C4
Uh huh. I'm sure you're right.
...
As a gun dealer (that gets clothes, stickers, etc) for free at an alarming rate, there are NO gun stickers allowed on ANY of my vehicles. I do not wear ANY gun type clothing out in public (and rarely in classes either). In fact, I rarely even wear "gun" branded clothing in my own store!
Why? Appearing to be un-armed (victim) gives you way more advantages than appearing "armed and dangerous."
This is great. In my very first job out of college we had a seminar, two or three days, on situational awareness and how to act in public. From that seminar almost 30 years ago I learned how, and why, to be the gray man, be in the middle, Mr. Nobody. I point out to my wife and kids all the stickers on vehicles and how they can be used against the driver, or what kind of intel one can glean from clothes.
Same reason when we travel, no "tactical" style bags, no 5/11, no MC, no US military clothing no, no, no. Especially international travel. See Robert Stethem.
Don't get me wrong....I love me some stickers, caps, and t-shirts (I am happy to give my address to anyone looking to off-load), but extremely aware of what the images can portray to the wrong people.
Coexist.
Where does an LE background help in training? A good former LE instructor will be versed in self defense statutes as well as judgmental pistol shooting. Police are beholden to the same statutes as anyone else for self defense. Plus "Shoot/Don't Shoot" has to have a basis in experience. All situations are fluid and anything can change. What John Q. Gunowner wants is a credible instructor who could be considered an expert witness to testify to his instruction. A lot of post-shoot scenes can look worse than they are and articulation of events is key.
Anybody can pull a trigger, but can you handle the aftermath? A law enforcement insight is handy.
Where does military background help? The more rigorous drilling where civilian legality may not be a concern. Most soldiers don't use pistols. But, most small army types do tend to teach "pushing through" and very hostile environments
The honest work. It's either on paper or it isn't. I wouldn't and haven't forego one for the other.
The average soldier (i.e. not infantry) doesn't shoot that much. The average officer is just putting in time or is lazy.
But people who put the work in, consistently, are optimal.
I would rather have instruction based in legality or rigor than a "war story" class. Something universal and self applicable.
Shooting is easy. Life is hard.
Just my take. My main goal is, and has been, if I'm in ghettoville and reality ensues; nothing should be left to chance.
Plus....Delta Force, Green Berets, SEALs, Force Recon, and competent SWAT don't grow on trees.
Again just my take.
I do a lot of training courses, at least two, usually three every year. Frankly, I don't care much about the instructors' credentials. I care mostly about the fact that the courses are within 45 minutes from my house, and that the the instructor knows more than I do. Which they pretty much all do. I've never taken a firearms training course where I didn't walk away knowing more than when I started. Never took one that I considered to be a waste of my time.
Digital_Damage
06-03-16, 13:05
someone get that guy some sun screen!
Uh huh. I'm sure you're right.
...
There are over 60,000 members on here. Have a l met them all? No, of course not. Do I talk to a lot of them on the phone, e-mail and FB? Yes. Do I meet a lot of them in training classes? Yes I do. Vary rarely (like once or twice) do I see or talk to a guy (that is an actual poster on here) that fits the "mall ninja" description.
Why is what I am saying true? Because the MOD's, Staff, SME and general avid posting base do a good job shutting down village idiots. They get tired of getting "told" and move onto forums where they can be viewed as the "gun guy." It is a cultural thing (who we are if you will) spelled out by Army Chief some time ago.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?70019-The-Good-The-Bad-and-The-Ugly-an-M4C-Style-Guide
C4
This is great. In my very first job out of college we had a seminar, two or three days, on situational awareness and how to act in public. From that seminar almost 30 years ago I learned how, and why, to be the gray man, be in the middle, Mr. Nobody. I point out to my wife and kids all the stickers on vehicles and how they can be used against the driver, or what kind of intel one can glean from clothes.
Same reason when we travel, no "tactical" style bags, no 5/11, no MC, no US military clothing no, no, no. Especially international travel. See Robert Stethem.
Don't get me wrong....I love me some stickers, caps, and t-shirts (I am happy to give my address to anyone looking to off-load), but extremely aware of what the images can portray to the wrong people.
In my former life I was Naval Intel working abroad (typically against Drug Lords). Not the nicest people. So keep out of view was always the best option.
I recently traveled to Paris. Two brands that I saw there was Oakley and Arcteryx. So those are "safe" brands that give you quality, but don't scream "american." On the other hand, I could spot American a mile away. When I would approach them, it was always in English. They would even ask me "how I knew that they weren't French."
C4
I do a lot of training courses, at least two, usually three every year. Frankly, I don't care much about the instructors' credentials. I care mostly about the fact that the courses are within 45 minutes from my house, and that the the instructor knows more than I do. Which they pretty much all do. I've never taken a firearms training course where I didn't walk away knowing more than when I started. Never took one that I considered to be a waste of my time.
Your kind of like a one issue voter IMHO. Your "issue" is proximity to your home. Cool. With that said, I am NOT taking a vehicle ops class from a guy that didn't do it for a living. Yes, they "may" have better "ideas or theories" than you, but that ain't saying much.
If you are just looking to shoot better (faster, more accurate, looking for new ideas), then I agree. The creds don't matter (assuming you think you can learn something from them).
Your money and time so do with as you like.
C4
Coexist.
Where does an LE background help in training? A good former LE instructor will be versed in self defense statutes as well as judgmental pistol shooting. Police are beholden to the same statutes as anyone else for self defense. Plus "Shoot/Don't Shoot" has to have a basis in experience. All situations are fluid and anything can change. What John Q. Gunowner wants is a credible instructor who could be considered an expert witness to testify to his instruction. A lot of post-shoot scenes can look worse than they are and articulation of events is key.
Anybody can pull a trigger, but can you handle the aftermath? A law enforcement insight is handy.
Where does military background help? The more rigorous drilling where civilian legality may not be a concern. Most soldiers don't use pistols. But, most small army types do tend to teach "pushing through" and very hostile environments
The honest work. It's either on paper or it isn't. I wouldn't and haven't forego one for the other.
The average soldier (i.e. not infantry) doesn't shoot that much. The average officer is just putting in time or is lazy.
But people who put the work in, consistently, are optimal.
I would rather have instruction based in legality or rigor than a "war story" class. Something universal and self applicable.
Shooting is easy. Life is hard.
Just my take. My main goal is, and has been, if I'm in ghettoville and reality ensues; nothing should be left to chance.
Plus....Delta Force, Green Berets, SEALs, Force Recon, and competent SWAT don't grow on trees.
Again just my take.
Yes, I agree that Civy's would be wise to seek out LE to get a better grasp on "verbal judo" (something Civy's lack) and understanding the laws. I am seeing a lot more HSLD Mil guys adding this type of discussion to their Concealed Carry based classes or bringing it up on breaks.
C4
I do a lot of training courses, at least two, usually three every year. Frankly, I don't care much about the instructors' credentials. I care mostly about the fact that the courses are within 45 minutes from my house, and that the the instructor knows more than I do. Which they pretty much all do. I've never taken a firearms training course where I didn't walk away knowing more than when I started. Never took one that I considered to be a waste of my time.
I am fortunate in my location is about 90 minutes from Ft Bragg/Fayetteville and all that entails (LAV, TMac, etc). I am in the same boat...almost every instructor is a far better shooter and knows more than I, so always learn something. I will say that a local regional instructor has terrible internet skills (typo's, bad grammar, etc)., but Lord can that man shoot (and teach). And his fees are very reasonable, so he is my go-to locally.
Regarding credentials, they are important to me insofar as demonstrating credibility. Just as when I teach ACLS and point out that a) I have taught since 1991 (when it was actually hard), and b) I have been a paramedic and ED nurse so I have seen a code or two. I find that when I teach new house staff, unless I whip out my creds they tend to ignore my, <ahem>, sage wisdom.
In my former life I was Naval Intel working abroad (typically against Drug Lords). Not the nicest people. So keep out of view was always the best option.
My first job was (civ) intel. Not operational but analysis.
My first job was (civ) intel. Not operational but analysis.
Cool. The Navy has two intel (jobs or did when I was in). The IS's did the analysis and the CT's were the "field" guys.
C4
Question for the folks involved in this thread. Can anyone tell me how one becomes and (more importantly) is "vetted" as a firearms instructor (in a certain discipline)? For instance, if I wanted to teach people how to fly a plane, I would have log so many hours under the control of a more experienced pilot, pass certain milestones (flight time, etc). The Military (and some LE agencies) have instructor schools that candidates are sent to. They are then watched by more experienced instructors as they teach.
The above listed way that instructors are "made" is very few. Far fewer than what we see in the training arena today. So who "christened" them to teach?
Curious what folks think and for the record, this is NOT aimed at any instructor (especially Mr. Spaulding).
C4
Leaveammoforme
06-03-16, 13:53
Dressing down in public only goes so far. A person can only try to cloak themselves unless they change mannerisms.
I was with my family waiting for a table at Outback a year or so back. Three guys ,also waiting, (2 late 40's, 1 late 20's) had their heads on major swivels.
Same outfit for all three. Untucked, loose fitting, button up fishing shirts. Cargo shorts riding an inch above their knees."Non-tactical" boots (brown) , logo free ball caps and super sweet rainbow lens Oakleys.
The went over to a Mexican meat market while killing time. I laughed as I told my wife that they went over there looking for a gun fight.
They stood out so bad I remember them over a year later. They didn't even notice my CZ t-shirt and Bates that very day.
Question for the folks involved in this thread. Can anyone tell me how one becomes and (more importantly) is "vetted" as a firearms instructor (in a certain discipline)? For instance, if I wanted to teach people how to fly a plane, I would have log so many hours under the control of a more experienced pilot, pass certain milestones (flight time, etc). The Military (and some LE agencies) have instructor schools that candidates are sent to. They are then watched by more experience instructors as they teach.
The above listed way that instructors are "made" is very few. Far fewer than what we see in the training arena today. So who "christened" them to teach?
Curious what folks think and for the record, this is NOT aimed at any instructor (especially Mr. Spaulding).
C4
As there are no real standards I suppose anyone who has shot a gun in some capacity could technically become an instructor. As for me, I look for the NRA quals, military or civilian schools and/or experience.
I recently traveled to Paris. Two brands that I saw there was Oakley and Arcteryx. So those are "safe" brands that give you quality, but don't scream "american." On the other hand, I could spot American a mile away. When I would approach them, it was always in English. They would even ask me "how I knew that they weren't French."C4
The wife and I meet in Rome back in April. We finally started playing games while people watching, trying to pick where people are from. We sat at a cafe by the Vatican for long lunch and watched the waiter pick groups out by nationality as they walked by. Although he did accuse my wife of being Italian and thought I was a Brit. So plus 1 for us.
I try to do my best to blend or be grey, but I am unmistakably stereotypical American. The only things I have ever been accused of being other than American, are a Brit, Canadian and once a German.
That said I have learned how to dress down some. To my wife's credit she noticed the easy way to pick American out is the brand labels. Northface, Black Diamond, Arcteryx etc. are all hugely American/North American brands.
Your kind of like a one issue voter IMHO. Your "issue" is proximity to your home. Cool. With that said, I am NOT taking a vehicle ops class from a guy that didn't do it for a living. Yes, they "may" have better "ideas or theories" than you, but that ain't saying much.
If you are just looking to shoot better (faster, more accurate, looking for new ideas), then I agree. The creds don't matter (assuming you think you can learn something from them).
Your money and time so do with as you like.
C4
Jeff Gonzales (x2), Larry Vickers, Dave Spaulding (x3), Louis Awerbuck (x3), Steve Fischer. 1/2 hour from my house. You must have really high standards to criticize my choice of instructors like that, Grant.
Dressing down in public only goes so far. A person can only try to cloak themselves unless they change mannerisms.
I was with my family waiting for a table at Outback a year or so back. Three guys ,also waiting, (2 late 40's, 1 late 20's) had their heads on major swivels.
Same outfit for all three. Untucked, loose fitting, button up fishing shirts. Cargo shorts riding an inch above their knees."Non-tactical" boots (brown) , logo free ball caps and super sweet rainbow lens Oakleys.
The went over to a Mexican meat market while killing time. I laughed as I told my wife that they went over there looking for a gun fight.
They stood out so bad I remember them over a year later. They didn't even notice my CZ t-shirt and Bates that very day.
Good point I think. LE really struggle with this some times (they look a like and when in groups, stick out pretty bad). They may have picked up on you, but you weren't the threat they were looking for. You are just a CCW holder expressing his opinion the best gun made.
C4
Jeff Gonzales (x2), Larry Vickers, Dave Spaulding (x3), Louis Awerbuck (x3), Steve Fischer. 1/2 hour from my house. You must have really high standards to criticize my choice of instructors like that, Grant.
Those are not the norm for instructors that people have access to (within that short of a drive). I certainly don't. My best option is to drive at least 2hrs from my home. Had I known those were the instructors you have trained with, my post would have been different. ;-)
C4
As there are no real standards I suppose anyone who has shot a gun in some capacity could technically become an instructor. As for me, I look for the NRA quals, military or civilian schools and/or experience.
Actually, the Mil (and possibly certain LE agencies) have shooting standards (as does the NRA).
C4
The wife and I meet in Rome back in April. We finally started playing games while people watching, trying to pick where people are from. We sat at a cafe by the Vatican for long lunch and watched the waiter pick groups out by nationality as they walked by. Although he did accuse my wife of being Italian and thought I was a Brit. So plus 1 for us.
I try to do my best to blend or be grey, but I am unmistakably stereotypical American. The only things I have ever been accused of being other than American, are a Brit, Canadian and once a German.
That said I have learned how to dress down some. To my wife's credit she noticed the easy way to pick American out is the brand labels. Northface, Black Diamond, Arcteryx etc. are all hugely American/North American brands.
My wife speaks and looks French. So I had a good cover. :-)
C4
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-03-16, 14:08
At trade shows we used to play 'Europen or gay'. Shoes used to be the dead giveaway. Now not so much.
At trade shows we used to play 'Europen or gay'. Shoes used to be the dead giveaway. Now not so much.
LOL, that is funny. With the whole metro-sexual thing in full swing these days, it is much harder to spot.
C4
Question for the folks involved in this thread. Can anyone tell me how one becomes and (more importantly) is "vetted" as a firearms instructor (in a certain discipline)? For instance, if I wanted to teach people how to fly a plane, I would have log so many hours under the control of a more experienced pilot, pass certain milestones (flight time, etc). The Military (and some LE agencies) have instructor schools that candidates are sent to. They are then watched by more experience instructors as they teach.
The above listed way that instructors are "made" is very few. Far fewer than what we see in the training arena today. So who "christened" them to teach?
Curious what folks think and for the record, this is NOT aimed at any instructor (especially Mr. Spaulding).
C4
You bring up a good point about training requirements. When I attended LE pistol instructor/range officer class, I was required to complete a 40 hour class, then return and assist with teaching a 40 hour pistol class to recruit LEO before I was issued my credentials. The same applied for patrol carbine and shotgun. With some agencies LE pistol and shotgun instructor are covered in 40 hours and patrol carbine in 20 hours without any further observation after a person graduates. If you are not an experienced shooter or teacher, that can be a problem.
Some people who attend instructor courses and get involved in the teaching community are just not shooters and I think that's where the difference lies. People like Mr. Vickers, Mr. Spaulding and Mr. Hackathorn cannot only shoot, they are also interested in the science of effectively teaching firearms. They have experience to draw from their respective backgrounds to help them develop realistic drills that have practical application and to help them teach effectively.
If I signed up to take a course taught by any of these men, I could not care less what kind of pants they wear, sunglasses they prefer or hair gel they use. I am paying for knowledge to further my ability to manipulate a firearm effectively. I am reasonably sure they don't care what I am wearing, so long as it's functional and appropriate for the course of instruction. If an instructor is paid by Glock or Colt at some point in their lives, I should not be surprised to see them wearing a Glock ball cap or Colt polo shirt.
What I think these men prefer in a student is what a majority of us prefer. Most instructors appreciate a student with working equipment, no ego, an open mind, open ears and a closed mouth at the appropriate time. If an instructor is not a SF operator, he may have other experience in his background that is applicable to the course of instruction, such as a LEO who dealt with violent individuals or investigated violent crimes.
If someone wants to start a Ninja fantasy camp for people who are into wearing the latest high dollar gear and knowing what SF operators eat for breakfast, in this day and age it may be a viable business opportunity. When you attend a firearm class and are in a crowd handling firearms next to one or two of these fantasy driven people, it takes something away from the course.
If a good instructor, such as Mr. Spaulding or Mr. Vickers, airs their opinion about training, equipment, etc. in the form of a video, some are going to disagree. Disagreeing is OK as long a person is constructive and respectful about it. Unfortunately, in this day and age, some who disagree tend to attack the person on the internet, which is the fastest form of communication with the widest audience.
What I think these men prefer in a student is what a majority of us prefer. Most instructors appreciate a student with working equipment, no ego, an open mind, open ears and a closed mouth at the appropriate time. If an instructor is not a SF operator, he may have other experience in his background that is applicable to the course of instruction, such as a LEO who dealt with violent individuals or investigated violent crimes.
Good point. A local man is a former Marine S/S. I happened upon him, he taught me some great precision bolt skills. And absolutely, being or having a good student is essential to the education process.
You bring up a good point about training requirements. When I attended LE pistol instructor/range officer class, I was required to complete a 40 hour class, then return and assist with teaching a 40 hour pistol class to recruit LEO before I was issued my credentials. The same applied for patrol carbine and shotgun. With some agencies LE pistol and shotgun instructor are covered in 40 hours and patrol carbine in 20 hours without any further observation after a person graduates. If you are not an experienced shooter or teacher, that can be a problem.
Some people who attend instructor courses and get involved in the teaching community are just not shooters and I think that's where the difference lies. People like Mr. Vickers, Mr. Spaulding and Mr. Hackathorn cannot only shoot, they are also interested in the science of effectively teaching firearms. They have experience to draw from their respective backgrounds to help them develop realistic drills that have practical application and to help them teach effectively.
If I signed up to take a course taught by any of these men, I could not care less what kind of pants they wear, sunglasses they prefer or hair gel they use. I am paying for knowledge to further my ability to manipulate a firearm effectively. I am reasonably sure they don't care what I am wearing, so long as it's functional and appropriate for the course of instruction. If an instructor is paid by Glock or Colt at some point in their lives, I should not be surprised to see them wearing a Glock ball cap or Colt polo shirt.
What I think these men prefer in a student is what a majority of us prefer. Most instructors appreciate a student with working equipment, no ego, an open mind, open ears and a closed mouth at the appropriate time. If an instructor is not a SF operator, he may have other experience in his background that is applicable to the course of instruction, such as a LEO who dealt with violent individuals or investigated violent crimes.
If someone wants to start a Ninja fantasy camp for people who are into wearing the latest high dollar gear and knowing what SF operators eat for breakfast, in this day and age it may be a viable business opportunity. When you attend a firearm class and are in a crowd handling firearms next to one or two of these fantasy driven people, it takes something away from the course.
If a good instructor, such as Mr. Spaulding or Mr. Vickers, airs their opinion about training, equipment, etc. in the form of a video, some are going to disagree. Disagreeing is OK as long a person is constructive and respectful about it. Unfortunately, in this day and age, some who disagree tend to attack the person on the internet, which is the fastest form of communication with the widest audience.
True. I am willing to bet that a good many of the "popular" instructors have never been vetted (or approved) to be instructors. At the very least, a LOWLY NRA instructor had to shoot a qual and do a presentation in front of a class. The training industry is definitely an odd duck.
C4
Steyr, you should do it for the sake of Bushido.
No other justification needed.
And pretty much you nailed it. That is why I still do it, I'll always hone skills I am unlikely to need because I'm just wired that way.
saw that posted a bunch ?
IMHO a typical I want to drive traffic and get talked about social media stunt
some truth some idiocy in the vid
take say a pro golfer I don't want to learn golf from him I want to learn it from his coach :)
meaning you are either a good instructor or you are not and your background is not as important as your ability to teach what you know
sorry some good LEO out there but often it seems when they do get in a gun fight it ends bad and never seems like most know what they are doing
and the military there job is to fight LEO is to protect and serve
who cares what people wear and do ? its silly they have the money to play more power to them
for me never owned a 5.11 item or tech based gun gear based on what it was ? but I am not looking to be a target either :)
ramairthree
06-03-16, 15:38
You would be hard pressed to pass for a local in most countries.
The 5.11 pants are great for the range, running around the FOB, etc. not so much traveling.
You can ameliorate though.
Vasque instead of merel sneaker booties, Bolle instead of Oakley, etc. dip out wear a ball cap. Have a brand of foreign cigs in your pocket. Set it on your cafe table. I have bought clothes locally, etc.
Car hart was a go to for reducing a tactical signature for a while but has become ubiquitous.
Having the right gear is something I have not fully realized has changed being retired.
But little changes used to make a huge difference. The Crye pant knee pads instead ones that suck or cut off your circulation, an antenna extension instead of a whip in your face, etc.
of course top level city shooters have been brought in to teach shooting skills. Just like mountaineering instructors and strength coaches and stuff. How can a guy that say, has to be a great shooter, combat diver, free fall parachutist, fitness stud, Intel guy, driver, atv or dirt bike rider, and such be at the same level as someone who is at the top of the pyramid in any one single discipline.
The difference between the local open GM 2011 shooter at a match and the SOF guy that shows up shooting C/B class at a match once or twice a year with his Glock is that the SOF will shoot the same after an hour long freezing flight and a two hour arduous offset infil up mountains in the winter in Afghanistan or after a HAHO jump into some little camp in Africa. But they can learn about shooting better from the guy. Although a lot of the GMs skill set is just God given talent.
Background matters in application. In the Army, a SERE instructor tends to be an SF guy. In the AF, it tends to be a SERE mos guy that has not been through a selective SOF pipeline. Some of their instruction comically highlights they have not spent a ton of time out moving tactically.
I had great instruction on atypical shooting positions from a no military, no combat LEO three gun shooter.
I had an operator former OTC instructor that the only thing I learned from was that he was an asshole and way better at what he did than he was at instructing it.
My best instruction has been from charismatic, combat experienced SOF guys that have also worked as SFAUC, SFARTEC, or OTC instructors.
I don't always agree with what even the best want. I don't feel you should always safe your carbine during a mag change as some prominent former operators teach. I don't think you should keep say, an M9 on safe in your holster and work it to fire with the offhand thumb as some former CIF assaulters teach. But class is to learn and to be exposed, not get pissy.
At the end of the day,
Take one hundred random 25 year old infantrymen from ranger battalion, the same from SF ODAs, and from SEALs, and from Marine SOF (I ant keep up with the current names)
And compare it to 100 random 25 year old LEOs. Hell, compare it 100 random SRT/SWAT types. I have yet to see even a general purpose force marine or soldier with a magazine in backwards or their Eotech facing the wrong way.
In my opinion, the Stark contrast in quality density that you will find is the root of the butt hurt the Spaulding video is an example of in the LE vs SOF instructor. Also keep in mind active SOF go to civy courses or contract them, and the right shoes, better belts, better quick release, etc. can make a difference. If you are sitting on the side of a little bird in full kit over water off the coast of Somalia in the dark with a couple of B7s on your belt, you might actually GAF about the QR on you plate hangers, sling, etc. and how well they actually work or if there is something better than what you had the guys in the rigger shop do up.
Or you can be an asshole and mock it and tell them to be more worried about the savages they are going to put down and how that will affect them on YouTube.
Multicam sucks. (Unless it's issued)
I wore multicam to a multi-day rifle class once.
It was all issued uniform gear though. I wore it because I was active duty at the time and decided to train as I would have fought. Also I didn't want to mess up clothes that I actually had to buy with my own money.
But I definitely felt like that guy, although in the end, I didn't really care what other people thought.
take say a pro golfer I don't want to learn golf from him I want to learn it from his coach :)
meaning you are either a good instructor or you are not and your background is not as important as your ability to teach what you know
Bing.
I've seen that for decades in the martial arts. Some national or world champion opens a school and discovers he's really not very good at imparting what he understands to other people. He also only knows what works for him, he has no idea how to make other people who have different physical strengths and weaknesses more effective.
9 times out of 10 he's simply trying to reproduce clone fighters and only 20% of any group will have enough similarity to him to be successful on any meaningful level. Meanwhile, some guy who never ever had any kind of national ranking at all is producing students who all populate the top 25 fighter rankings in several regions.
Sometimes you get lucky and somebody with a lot of understanding knows how to relate the things they know and do to a large population of diverse shooters.
Here is another problem, untrained people go looking for what they expect to learn. In martial arts that means students expecting to learn the things they saw in movies, which is usually what made them want to learn martial arts. So if they check you out and you are drilling "basics" and the fighting techniques aren't impressive looking, they keep looking until they find that school teaching gymnastic flips and 360 degree jump roundhouse kicks.
When it comes to "practical / tactical" the untrained person fully expects any teacher to be wearing the current BDUs, carrying a 25 lb. fully accessories carbine and some kind of internet approved combat knife on the belt even though there is no reason for it. If you are wearing regular clothes and concentrating on basics they will assume you really don't know a lot. They will keep looking until they find the teacher who actually is wearing his green beret while he teaches a class and shows them advanced level skills like how to do a magazine change while doing a forward ninja roll.
Let any instructor offer two classes like "Basic Carbine" and "Advanced Carbine" and 95% of everyone will attempt to enroll in the advanced class because they believe they probably already know the basics and want to get the most advanced training for their money.
Bing.
I've seen that for decades in the martial arts. Some national or world champion opens a school and discovers he's really not very good at imparting what he understands to other people. He also only knows what works for him, he has no idea how to make other people who have different physical strengths and weaknesses more effective.
I think we all know where you're going with this.
http://images-cdn.moviepilot.com/image/upload/c_fill,h_1280,t_mp_quality,w_1920/pp329i4w0rqphxztb4tb.jpg
I think we all know where you're going with this.
I know. But sometimes the parallels are too strong to ignore.
Moose-Knuckle
06-04-16, 00:43
Not to mention, when LAV brushes up on his technique, he works with Rob Leatham.
ETA... Of course this was already mentioned.
Yup as mentioned, I was specifically referring to Spaulding's line about seek out LE instructors for handgun as MIL don't use them.
As Grant stated, "civilian" contractors are brought in all the time to teach pipe hitters everything from tracking, martial arts, to shooting. In his book, Eric Haney said that they would bring in fashion consultants to teach Unit members how to dress in particular settings and would even interview lifer's in prison to learn burglary skill sets.
One of the things that irritates me to no end is when I see someone in an advanced class (Vehicle, CQB, moving and shooting, night fighting, etc) when what they really need is a LEVEL 1 class with a strong foundation in marksmanship. No one wants to take marksmanship classes (as they just aren't sexy). Some of the worst instructors I have seen for learning the fundamentals are HSLD types. Some of the best instructors I have seen for fundamentals are lowly NRA and VSM instructors. People would do themselves a huge service by getting the training they NEED, not what they want.
I've spent good money with Jason Falla and Frank Proctor to better my carbine skills. However, I learned more about accurately firing a carbine at a $60 Project Appleseed event. Something about sending 500 rounds of 5.56 downrange in one session where every shot was pretty much for score and at minuscule target at 25 yards that helps hone your skills. I took a Frank Proctor class soon after that and my shooting had improved immensely vs. my last carbine class.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
06-04-16, 01:19
LOL, overnight it's popular to be low drag, train how you fight, grey man, etc. The gun crowd, especially the high end gun crowd, certainly follows whats "in".
Moose-Knuckle
06-04-16, 01:38
LOL, overnight it's popular to be low drag, train how you fight, grey man, etc. The gun crowd, especially the high end gun crowd, certainly follows whats "in".
I've been shooting the majority of my life. I'm almost 40 and to date do not own any Fudd or Cowboy guns. I don't own one piece of MC or Kryptic anything, only wear plain solid color t-shirts, polos, and henleys, no gun SWAG on my vehicles, etc. I'll never understand why idiots pay $19.99 plus tax and wear a Nike, UA, etc. t-shirt and give them free advertising. Most people now a days are walking billboards for brand X, Y, Z . . .
The only instructor I even know of that wore battle rattle and MC head to toe was Pat Rodgers and from my understanding he never was SOCOM/JSOC.
Yup as mentioned, I was specifically referring to Spaulding's line about seek out LE instructors for handgun as MIL don't use them.
As Grant stated, "civilian" contractors are brought in all the time to teach pipe hitters everything from tracking, martial arts, to shooting. In his book, Eric Haney said that they would bring in fashion consultants to teach Unit members how to dress in particular settings and would even interview lifer's in prison to learn burglary skill sets.
Yeah I remember that. I'm gonna read that book again, I have it somewhere.
I remember the first class I ever took was the one for ccw permit. The guy teaching it was a competitive shooter, and made the comment that when cops and military wanted to learn to shoot, they went to guys like his brother...a two-time Bianchi Cup Champ. I didn't know shit, and thought that's what he was full of.
I was wrong.
Later, I asked a friend of mine who had been an instructor while in the Marine Corps. He told me yeah, why wouldn't that make sense to you?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
LOL, overnight it's popular to be low drag, train how you fight, grey man, etc. The gun crowd, especially the high end gun crowd, certainly follows whats "in".
Gotta stay hipster and disdainful of what is "cool." Does 5.11 make non tactical skinny khakis?
Sneakers, cotton OD trousers, and a Def Leppard shirt.
Yep. That's what the Fashion Nazis better start approving of.
Outlander Systems
06-04-16, 14:20
OD.
Now you're speaking my language.
Sneakers, cotton OD trousers, and a Def Leppard shirt.
Yep. That's what the Fashion Nazis better start approving of.
ColtSeavers
06-04-16, 15:35
Sneakers, cotton OD trousers, and a Def Leppard shirt.
Yep. That's what the Fashion Nazis better start approving of.
Sneakers, denim shorts/jeans (weather dependant), Condor Outdoor CS-008 Chest rig, random ballcap and this
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1168/9820/products/10464343_1023029594401987_2952762506795772027_n_1024x1024.jpg?v=1462851135
from Rock am Ring Nürburgring '02, '04 or '05.
But yeah, after doing a lot of 'fun runs' (homemade course and other dorky things) out in BLM land, I find simply shooting more to be the most rewarding training of all.
Eurodriver
06-06-16, 21:02
Edited
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