SBR rifle

[rubar01]

Hello everyone!

Im looking to get into a SBR, I'm open to either the 5.56 or the 300bo. What has been everyone's opinions? I'm looking at 10.5 barrel for each one. Suppressed. With the suppresser recessed into the hand guard. The suppressor I'm looking at will be either a Dead Air Sandman or Silencerco Omega or anything else.

Rubar01

[Kenneth]

Do you reload? If so I would go .300 BO. That will give you an actual suppressed weapon. 5.56 isn't very quiet even when suppressed.


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[rubar01]

I do reload haven't had a lot of time to do it. I probability won't have a lot of time until end of year. Working a project 24 days a month. 14 hour days

[Kenneth]

.300 Blackout with the Omega = win.


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[rubar01]

110g or 220g

[Iraqgunz]

Your vagueness couldn't be more vague. One thing I can tell you is that you do not want a suppressor ensconced under the rail. They get hot fairly quick and you will be limited on your choice of rail.

If you are going to go with 5.56 then I would stick with an 11.5" barrel. If you are doing a 300 I would stay with the 9-10" range.

What is the purpose of said builds? Budget, etc...?

[rubar01]

Total budget of 900 to 1100 without suppressor. Purpose home defense and else if the need arises.

[mattpittinger]

Does the 900-1100 include the tax stamp?


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[daddyusmaximus]

I have a 5.56 AR and had a 5.56 SBR, but the 5.56 does give up quite a bit in the shorter barrels. I love my SBR, and I know it is pretty much a short range gun. I'd never shoot it greater than 200yds at anything I want to kill. However, in an effort to gain some of what I loose with the 5.56 in a SBR, I had my SBR upper rebarreled in .300 Blackout. everything I've read has the .300 doing better out of the SBR as that is it's design goal. I went with the 11.3" Wilson Combat barrel, and sort of wish I'd went with a 9" one, but shooting the extra 2 inches should still gain me some power without getting too long.

My take on the AR is 5.56 in 16" and up, .300 in a SBR.

[domestique]

OP, do you have any other ARs? 16" 5.56 or 14.5" pinned 5.56?


ETA: you already have reloading dies, and am going to suppress (all pluses for 300blk)..... so the only hang up for me is if you have a 5.56 AR15 already, and are interested in taking a high volume training class.


I tell friends that do not have an AR15, to first get a quality 5.56 AR. This will provide a cheaper platform to train with. 300blk and 5.56 self defense/hunting ammo are roughly the same price, and I can even reload 300blk for around the same price as 5.56.... but 5.56 is still king for taking to classes as I don't have to waste the time reloading, and I'm not as concerned about losing all my precious 300blk brass. I personally use 300blk for hunting/self defense, but use a 5.56 AR for training.... although a 300blk rig (subsonic) would be great for shoot houses, and keeping sound down. An instructor at EAG Tactical has been doing this lately with great results. He has a 11.5" BCM (5.56) and a 9" BCM (300blk) that are setup identical.


That said, if you want the smallest package, a 9" 300blk setup with an Omega (direct thread with flat end cap is around 6" and 13.9 ounces) is amazing. You can get a budget lower (Aero or a blem BCM) and a 9" BCM upper for under 1K. I just built a similar setup for my wife, and it is a blast to shoot. Very light and maneuverable.


Take IraqGunz's advise and either go 9" 300blk or 11.5" 5.56. Anything shorter than 11.5" in 5.56 is very finicky, and you lose a lot of velocity (which 5.56 depends on).


The wildcard: go and buy a used LMT MRP CQB upper. You can sometimes find them on the EE for 600-800 dollars (Rainier Arms is selling new CQB uppers right now for 850.00). This gives you a 5.56 gun, and when funds allow, buy a 300blk barrel and have a quick swap option.

ETA: I personally do NOT like recessed hand guards. They look cool, but will get hot if you actually put any decent amount of ammo through the gun. A recessed hand guard would be ok in a 300blk subsonic only rig, that is meant purely for backyard fun, and to impress friends... but you are going to wish you had welders mitts on if you did a mag dump with 5.56.

A suppressor will increase in heat 7-15 degrees for every shot of 5.56 (depending on barrel length, load info, suppressor etc.). 30 rounds of 5.56 will take a suppressor at ambient temperature of 90 degrees, and turn that suppressor into a 400+ degree grill!

[mattpittinger]

Recessed has a lot of down sides, the big ones being heat, lack of forend options, and as far as I know REALLY limited QD options for your can. Upper can't be shot without a can, and/or you have a can that only lives on that upper.


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[nml]

5.56 isn't very quiet even when suppressed.Huh? As loud as 10/22.

[nml]

Anything shorter than 11.5" in 5.56 is very finicky, and you lose a lot of velocity (which 5.56 depends on).First Good post! This was tru some time ago But I think the 10.3/10.5 platform has more than proven itself nowadays. That being said ! I personally purchased an 11.5" for the 10" rail and to be easier on the suppressor. :)

[Kenneth]

Huh? As loud as 10/22.

Well I have to say that the only time I shot a suppressed 5.56 it was way louder then a 10/22 but I have no idea what suppressor he was using. He was using m855 as ammo though.

So your saying that a 10.5-11.5 inch 5.56 suppressed is hearing safe with bulk ammo?


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[jerrysimons]

Well I have to say that the only time I shot a suppressed 5.56 it was way louder then a 10/22 but I have no idea what suppressor he was using. He was using m855 as ammo though.

So your saying that a 10.5-11.5 inch 5.56 suppressed is hearing safe with bulk ammo?


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Maybe at the muzzle with a really quiet suppressor but probably not at the shooter's and if it is is right at 140db.

[nml]

No not saying hearing safe. But won't shoot 110gr 300blk without ear pro either. I can not give you hard sound numbers I do not have the equipment.

[sevin8nin]

From my understandings, 300 blackout really shines as a subsonic suppressed caliber. At that point, it's a handgun. If I wanted to shoot something similar I could get a 9mm or .45 carbine. But, what's neat about 300 blackout is you can simply changes mags to a load of 110gr Barnes and now you're back in rifle territory again. And with it's quick efficient burn rate you can get most of your potential velocity out of a relatively short barrel.
Lets look at this chart that compares 110gr barnes to 55gr m193 and barrel lengths:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v726/abinok/412260_343799122333216_617473682_o.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/abinok/media/412260_343799122333216_617473682_o.jpg.html)
What someone was trying to show with this chart is that you can get the same energy with 300 blackout using an 8" barrel as you can 5.56 in a 10.5" barrel.
What's not fair here is ammo selection.

Do you carry a handgun? If so, do you just load up whatever cheap ball ammunition was on sale at Wal-Mart that day and go on your merry way? Or do you instead by the load that maximizes the effectiveness of your gun? Same principal applies to rifles.

Lets say instead of shooting crummy m193 out of your SBR'd 5.56 gun you instead decide to shoot something like mk262, 77gr, to get the most out of your little carbine.
In this graph you'll see mk262 out of a 10.5" barrel compared to .300 blackout 110gr Barnes out of a 10.5" barrel, and also mk262 out of a 12.5" barrel.
http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=7ef85d70
The short takeaway from the graph is that at distances inside of 100yds the 300 blackout is definitely carrying more energy, by at least a couple hundred ft/lbs.
What I wanted to point out was that at the extremes, say 300yds, the energy difference between the two is near negligible.

Domestique and Iraqgunz had sound advice.
If the goal so small package with as quiet as possible then do an 8-9" barrel in .300black and get an Omega or something similarly short. Run subsonic ammo and you've basically got a suppressed shoulder fired pistol, in terms of ballistics.

But, if you would like to be able to shoot this gun more often, for less, and not have to reload, I would strongly consider a 10.5-12.5" 5.56 gun suppressed.


Full disclosure: I apparently think like domestique because I have an LMT MRP. Currently awaiting tax stamp for SBR status, but i've got the factory 10.5" 300 blackout barrel, and an Omega, as well as a custom 12.5" 5.56 barrel with an AAC SPR/M4 suppressor.
The plan was, if I want as quiet as I can get then I've got the 300 blackout, but if I want better all around performance (and ammo availability) that I can suppress if I want to, i've got the 12.5" 5.56. This should suit my needs fine. YMMV

[mattpittinger]

Agreed the 300 absolutely outshines the 556 when running standard xm193 in a SBR
Here's the data from my 11.5" with 55gr
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160607/e845ffadef7eae0245f85a469955eb64.jpg
VS my 8" 300 with 125 SSTs
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160607/a4e3fbbcc8976cef0f8a499d442301fd.jpg
But once you start running premium ammo is the 556 it starts to close that energy gap quick.


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[daddyusmaximus]

Agreed the 300 absolutely outshines the 556 when running standard xm193 in a SBR
Here's the data from my 11.5" with 55gr

But once you start running premium ammo is the 556 it starts to close that energy gap quick.

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Once you start running premium 5.56 ammo, it gets as expensive as .300 Blackout ammo.

[BufordTJustice]

Once you start running premium 5.56 ammo, it gets as expensive as .300 Blackout ammo.
Not when you have PSA selling new Speer 64gr Gold Dot for $.50/rd. Lol

[daddyusmaximus]

Not when you have PSA selling new Speer 64gr Gold Dot for $.50/rd. Lol

Yes, even the. Those kind of sales only come around once in a while, and when they do they sell out quick, like they just did. In order to find decent ammo at a good price, you have to go shopping every day to get in on it before it's gone. The demand is too high nowadays and the market can't seem to keep up. (or they're acting like OPEC and controlling prices by limiting production)

[Righter13]

I run a Sandman S on a 10.5 5.56 and couldn't be happier with the Can. Has a great tone and the mounting system locks up nice and tight.

[BufordTJustice]

Yes, even the. Those kind of sales only come around once in a while, and when they do they sell out quick, like they just did. In order to find decent ammo at a good price, you have to go shopping every day to get in on it before it's gone. The demand is too high nowadays and the market can't seem to keep up. (or they're acting like OPEC and controlling prices by limiting production)

That's not the case at all. I bought several hundred rounds of it in mid-May. So did several of my buddies going back into early May. They also had 75gr GDSP for close to that price. 64gr was the daily deal for almost a month. That's a LOT of hunting.

And, lastly, are we back to to the kinetic energy= terminal performance arguments?

[daddyusmaximus]

That's not the case at all. I bought several hundred rounds of it in mid-May. So did several of my buddies going back into early May. They also had 75gr GDSP for close to that price. 64gr was the daily deal for almost a month. That's a LOT of hunting.

And, lastly, are we back to to the kinetic energy= terminal performance arguments?

Yeah, that's why I finally decided to give the .300 a try. Even though the ammo is more pricey that 5.56, every ballistics table or test I have read says it gives a decent boost over the 5.56 in a SBR at close range. That's exactly what I wanted, a harder hitting round from the muzzle out to say 150 or 200yds.

[scooter22]

Yes, even the. Those kind of sales only come around once in a while, and when they do they sell out quick, like they just did. In order to find decent ammo at a good price, you have to go shopping every day to get in on it before it's gone. The demand is too high nowadays and the market can't seem to keep up. (or they're acting like OPEC and controlling prices by limiting production)

Still plenty of 64gr GD at PSA, if that's what you're referring to.

[daddyusmaximus]

Yeah, but I have a new caliber to buy for now, and my stash of 5.56 is good enough for the foreseeable future.

[BufordTJustice]

Yeah, that's why I finally decided to give the .300 a try. Even though the ammo is more pricey that 5.56, every ballistics table or test I have read says it gives a decent boost over the 5.56 in a SBR at close range. That's exactly what I wanted, a harder hitting round from the muzzle out to say 150 or 200yds.
I have hunting experience with both 300 black tip and several barrier blind 556 loads. At best, they're comparable in that distance range.

In case you didn't pick up on my hint, there is extensive scientific research, not the least of which by Dr Fackler (RIP), showing at most a very loose link between kinetic energy and wounding effectiveness. Playing much larger roles are shot placement and bullet design/construction.

There's no situation where an animal wounded or lost with a quality barrier blind 556 round would have been killed with an identical shot from 300 black tip.

300 has an advantage that, if one is satisfied by handgun ballistics and performance on target, they can have a gun which is movie quiet. 556 will never be able to do that.

[daddyusmaximus]

Playing much larger roles are shot placement and bullet design/construction.

You are correct sir. This has always been the case.




300 has an advantage that, if one is satisfied by handgun ballistics and performance on target, they can have a gun which is movie quiet. 556 will never be able to do that.

OK, I can't say that this never crossed my mind. This is a big part of my foray into the .300 world. As a home defense weapon the handgun normally serves people quite well. I figure, combine this ballistic performance in a platform I'm a better shot with, (an AR SBR) 30 round magazine capacity, and quiet enough not to freak out my family, or hinder communication with them should make the .300 Blackout an effective HD gun. Then when you need to do other AR SBR work at medium distances (50 to 150 or 200 meters) you can run supersonic rounds and have the same small package with a little harder hitting round.

I'll never give up my normal (non-SBR) 5.56. I've always been happy with it, but I had to get a new barrel for the SBR anyway. I had read so much on it, and seen so many videos I jumped at the chance to try out the Blackout for myself. I just think that at the distances the SBR plays a role in, the .300 seems makes sense, at least on paper. I guess I'll know more after I've had one for a couple years. I'm kinda late coming to the game on this caliber as I kept waiting to see if it would stick around and how it would develop.

[BufordTJustice]

You are correct sir. This has always been the case.





OK, I can't say that this never crossed my mind. This is a big part of my foray into the .300 world. As a home defense weapon the handgun normally serves people quite well. I figure, combine this ballistic performance in a platform I'm a better shot with, (an AR SBR) 30 round magazine capacity, and quiet enough not to freak out my family, or hinder communication with them should make the .300 Blackout an effective HD gun. Then when you need to do other AR SBR work at medium distances (50 to 150 or 200 meters) you can run supersonic rounds and have the same small package with a little harder hitting round.

I'll never give up my normal (non-SBR) 5.56. I've always been happy with it, but I had to get a new barrel for the SBR anyway. I had read so much on it, and seen so many videos I jumped at the chance to try out the Blackout for myself. I just think that at the distances the SBR plays a role in, the .300 seems makes sense, at least on paper. I guess I'll know more after I've had one for a couple years. I'm kinda late coming to the game on this caliber as I kept waiting to see if it would stick around and how it would develop.
That makes logical sense. The 300 is here to stay.

But the difference in terminal effectiveness between supersonic 300 black tip and, say 556 62gr TBBC XM556FBIT3 or Hornady 70gr 556 GMX and ANY subsonic 300 round is simply enormous.

For subsonic use so far, we're looking at +P 45-ACP-ish performance on target. Basically, like a CZ Scorpion SBR in 45 with a can and quality hollow points.

Not a horrible trade, but not a trade for everybody. Handguns are generally lousy at killing things.

EDIT: I'll be building a 300 upper later this year, but it won't replace my 11.5" 556.

My agency issues HK UMP 45 select fire carbines for special teams use. HUGE difference on target between those using 200gr +P Gold Dot and even the 10.5" RRA carbines using 64gr GDSP .223 that the rest of SWAT uses.

[Rayrevolver]

Outside of boutique subsonic ammo for the 300BLK, the general consensus is that subs will NOT expand at any range.

You are better off ballistically with 9mm/45 and appropriate ammo.

[BufordTJustice]

Outside of boutique subsonic ammo for the 300BLK, the general consensus is that subs will NOT expand at any range.

You are better off ballistically with 9mm/45 and appropriate ammo.
Correct. That's what i had in mind in the above post because A) you're right and B) defensive use automatically requires expanding or fragmenting ammo.

[daddyusmaximus]

I've seen a lot of videos, and read about a lot of guys that have taken hogs with subsonics. Hog = Criminal in my book.

[domestique]

I've seen a lot of videos, and read about a lot of guys that have taken hogs with subsonics. Hog = Criminal in my book.

My buddy shot 2 hogs last year (both around 270 pounds, and shot in identical locations)

1st was with 125 grain Nosler: The hog ran 30 yards after being shot and was bayed up by the dogs, but was still alive. Ny buddy had to walk up and stick it with a knife to finally kill it (the dogs were too close for another shot).

2nd. with 208 AMAX: The hog was shot and then just stood looking at us for 10 seconds before flopping over. The exit wound and blood splatter was very impressive. The bullet exited sideways through the thick neck area and sent blood splatter 3 feet high and 4 feet back on the nearby tree leaves.


*obviously this is a tiny example size, and I still prefer 110gr. Black Tip for game, but thought the story related.




Another point to make regarding 5.56 vs 300blk (using the same high quality bullets i.e T-TSX). The "black tip" has a lower velocity needed for full expansion. This gives the 300blk an extra 70 yards of effective expansion over the 5.56 equivalent.

I have both 5.56 and 300blk ARs. I use the 5.56 for high volume training, and the 300blk for HD and hunting. I also value the ability to load up subs and shoot in the backyard without annoying the neighbors.

[BufordTJustice]

I've seen a lot of videos, and read about a lot of guys that have taken hogs with subsonics. Hog = Criminal in my book.
I've taken hogs with black tip. I've posted on this before. It's still not a 308. And I've taken hog with that as well as 556.

[BufordTJustice]

My buddy shot 2 hogs last year (both around 270 pounds, and shot in identical locations)

1st was with 125 grain Nosler: The hog ran 30 yards after being shot and was bayed up by the dogs, but was still alive. Ny buddy had to walk up and stick it with a knife to finally kill it (the dogs were too close for another shot).

2nd. with 208 AMAX: The hog was shot and then just stood looking at us for 10 seconds before flopping over. The exit wound and blood splatter was very impressive. The bullet exited sideways through the thick neck area and sent blood splatter 3 feet high and 4 feet back on the nearby tree leaves.


*obviously this is a tiny example size, and I still prefer 110gr. Black Tip for game, but thought the story related.




Another point to make regarding 5.56 vs 300blk (using the same high quality bullets i.e T-TSX). The "black tip" has a lower velocity needed for full expansion. This gives the 300blk an extra 70 yards of effective expansion over the 5.56 equivalent.

I have both 5.56 and 300blk ARs. I use the 5.56 for high volume training, and the 300blk for HD and hunting. I also value the ability to load up subs and shoot in the backyard without annoying the neighbors.

A lower velocity than what? 64gr Gold Dot and 62gr fusion have both shown expansion out to 300 yards from SBRs.

62gr TBBC in 556 pressure has shown expansion past 200 yards even from 10.5" barrels.

Besides, XM556FBIT3 is the only AR15 platform round that I've seen repeatedly cause serious damage directly at the entry point. Not even black tip does that. And Doc GKR has commented on this effect.

[Iraqgunz]

I'm guessing the OP isn't as interested as we are since he hasn't been back in a spell.

[JG007]

A lower velocity than what? 64gr Gold Dot and 62gr fusion have both shown expansion out to 300 yards from SBRs.

62gr TBBC in 556 pressure has shown expansion past 200 yards even from 10.5" barrels.

Besides, XM556FBIT3 is the only AR15 platform round that I've seen repeatedly cause serious damage directly at the entry point. Not even black tip does that. And Doc GKR has commented on this effect.

Nice! I use gold dot for duty and fusion for personal use and knew that it performed very well, but didn't remember it performing well for that far from an SBR, I'll have to look for a cite, but if you have one please post it. Normally I go to docgkr, Ill need to review his lists

[domestique]

A lower velocity than what? 64gr Gold Dot and 62gr fusion have both shown expansion out to 300 yards from SBRs.

62gr TBBC in 556 pressure has shown expansion past 200 yards even from 10.5" barrels.

Besides, XM556FBIT3 is the only AR15 platform round that I've seen repeatedly cause serious damage directly at the entry point. Not even black tip does that. And Doc GKR has commented on this effect.

I specifically mentioned barnes T-TSX in my post.

Link to XM556FBIT3? Thanks.

[BufordTJustice]

I specifically mentioned barnes T-TSX in my post.

Link to XM556FBIT3? Thanks.
The 50gr black hills load has the highest expansion threshold aside from fragmenting ammo. 70gr is 1800 fps, possibly slower. 70gr GMX is also 1900 fps. And Trident posted on this exact forum tests showing Gold Dot/Fusion expansion out past 300 yards from SBRs. Fusion/GDSP have shown expansion down to 1600 fps.

I don't have the TBBC link right now. Not even sure which computer it's saved on. I'll look. I'm in the middle of as move and most everything i own is in a pod right now.... So it may have to wait.

Also, anything below 1800 fps abides by handgun rules as temp cav isn't large enough to create any tissue damage. So only perm crush cavity counts below that velocity threshold..... Regardless of bullet design or caliber.

EDIT: Trident's thread
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?105639-Getting-the-most-out-of-your-5-56-SBR-rifle-with-pricey-223-quot-hunting-ammo-quot&

TBBC link of DocGKR stating 62gr TBBC has an expansion threshold of BELOW 2200fps:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?12115-62-trophy-bonded-bear-claw&p=218491&viewfull=1#post218491

70gr GMX is just under the publicly acknowledged expansion threshold (1878 fps vs 1900 rated MEV) from an 11.5" Bushy barrel at 300 yards. Throw a can on for another 10-20fps and you're right at 1900 fps. And their MV 30-50 fps is slower than what others have recorded.

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/rifle-ammunition/556-nato/70-gr-gmx-tap-barrier

BOTTOM LINE: I'm just not seeing the real world or technical performance gap that 300 BO TSX black tip allegedly has over quality 556 barrier blind ammo that KEEPS BEING ASSERTED in thread after thread. Beyond that, I've hunted with black tip and find it to be comparable to XM556FBIT3 and 70gr GMX TAP on hogs of comparable size, nothing more.

According to this calculator, posted earlier in this thread, 110 black tip from a 10.5" barrel (longer than the vast majority employ for SBRs), the black tip begins functioning as an expanding handgun bullet between 150 and 200 yards. Factor in a loss of between 1 and 2" of barrel length, and that threshold is crossed at close to 150 yards, if not before. Energy aside, you have a decently powerful, should-be-expanding .30 Cal carbine hollow point at that point. Nothing more.

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=7ef85d70

[domestique]

The 50gr black hills load has the highest expansion threshold aside from fragmenting ammo. 70gr is 1800 fps, possibly slower. 70gr GMX is also 1900 fps. And Trident posted on this exact forum tests showing Gold Dot/Fusion expansion out past 300 yards from SBRs. Fusion/GDSP have shown expansion down to 1600 fps.

I don't have the TBBC link right now. Not even sure which computer it's saved on. I'll look. I'm in the middle of as move and most everything i own is in a pod right now.... So it may have to wait.

Also, anything below 1800 fps abides by handgun rules as temp cav isn't large enough to create any tissue damage. So only perm crush cavity counts below that velocity threshold..... Regardless of bullet design or caliber.

EDIT: Trident's thread
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?105639-Getting-the-most-out-of-your-5-56-SBR-rifle-with-pricey-223-quot-hunting-ammo-quot&

TBBC link of DocGKR stating 62gr TBBC has an expansion threshold of BELOW 2200fps:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?12115-62-trophy-bonded-bear-claw&p=218491&viewfull=1#post218491

70gr GMX is just under the publicly acknowledged expansion threshold (1878 fps vs 1900 rated MEV) from an 11.5" Bushy barrel at 300 yards. Throw a can on for another 10-20fps and you're right at 1900 fps. And their MV 30-50 fps is slower than what others have recorded.

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/rifle-ammunition/556-nato/70-gr-gmx-tap-barrier

BOTTOM LINE: I'm just not seeing the real world or technical performance gap that 300 BO TSX black tip allegedly has over quality 556 barrier blind ammo that KEEPS BEING ASSERTED in thread after thread. Beyond that, I've hunted with black tip and find it to be comparable to XM556FBIT3 and 70gr GMX TAP on hogs of comparable size, nothing more.

According to this calculator, posted earlier in this thread, 110 black tip from a 10.5" barrel (longer than the vast majority employ for SBRs), the black tip begins functioning as an expanding handgun bullet between 150 and 200 yards. Factor in a loss of between 1 and 2" of barrel length, and that threshold is crossed at close to 150 yards, if not before. Energy aside, you have a decently powerful, should-be-expanding .30 Cal carbine hollow point at that point. Nothing more.

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=7ef85d70

Quality post, and in no way am I trying to disparage 5.56 users. I only recommend 300blk to friends if they meet certain criteria (1. they reload or don't need to budget expenses, 2. they are running a SBR and suppressor, 3. they already own 5.56 rifles) as the extra juice isn't always worth the squeeze.

One PSA for anyone looking at 50 gr TSX. Just be careful if you buy the Black Hills version. They specifically had Barnes make it tougher to go through auto glass and will not expand as well at distance (1900 fps vs 2300 fps expansion threshold).

DocGKR does reccomend the 50 gr over 300blk for urban users as it penetrates 12-18" vs the 18"+ for 110gr. black tip...

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?133105-Opinion-5-56-amp-300BLK-wtih-TSX-rounds



Buford, my point of the last post was IIRC, the "black tip" expands down to 1,300 fps. I totally understand your argument about it being a pistol caliber ballistics at 250-300+ yards, but it is an expanded pistol caliber at 70 yards farther than what a 50 or 70 gr. TSX could deliver. I'd much rather create a jagged hole than a 22 or 30 caliber hole. I'll have to read up more on the Gold dot offerings, on face value it seems it may be an even better choice than the Barnes offerings.



Here are some examples from other threads that I've posted recently:



Here is a reply from another thread.

www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?176100-5-56-vs-5-45-vs-300-blk-in-a-8-inch-sbr

35901


300BLK with the right load is effective out to 320-360 yards (9 inch barrel).... also less flash and concussion than a 8" 5.56. I personally wouldn't go less than 11.5" for a 5.56 SBR.

An example of the 70gr. TSX: 2,400 FPS out of a 8" 5.56 would yield effective expansion to 200-230 yards. A 11.5" barrel would yield 2,600 fps and reliable expansion to 300 yards...... this is even assuming you can get the 70gr. bullet moving that fast. I was optimistic in my numbers for the 5.56 load as the graphs represent the 62 gr. M855 round.

ETA:

From another thread:

-1800fps for the 70gr TSX
-1900fps for the 55,62 gr TSX
-The "non 5.56" 50gr bullet (handloading component) is also 1900fps
-The 5.56 loading by Black Hills using the 50gr Barnes has an expansion threshold of 2300fps, as it is a tougher design meant for use at close ranges against windshields, etc.
-300 BLK 110gr Blacktip has an expansion threshold of 1300fps. The blue-tip 110gr .308" dia TSX bullet has an expansion velocity of nearly 500fps higher, as it is meant for other cartridges, if you will.

Hope this helps. If anything it proves that you need to know the EXACT bullet beign discussed, and "transposing" expansion velocities doesn't work with the Barnes. It's very very VERY caliber/loading specific.



5.56 barrel lengths with 62gr. M855 "green tip"

www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=1093

35902

35903

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I have 2 similar uppers that are set up for my wife's SBR.

1. 11.5" 5.56 BCM KMR with a SF 5.56-RC
2. 9" 300blk BCM KMR with a SiCO Omega (6" OAL: direct thread with flat end cap)


The 300blk is lighter, shorter and has less flash/concussion unsuppressed than the 5.56 version. If OAL and weight is a concern than 300blk cannot be beat IMHO. 5.56 with the correct ammo can do 70-90% of what 300blk can do and in some cases may be the better option (i.e. urban environment where over penetration is a concern).

[daniel87]

Quality post, and in no way am I trying to disparage 5.56 users. I only recommend 300blk to friends if they meet certain criteria (1. they reload or don't need to budget expenses, 2. they are running a SBR and suppressor, 3. they already own 5.56 rifles) as the extra juice isn't always worth the squeeze.

One PSA for anyone looking at 50 gr TSX. Just be careful if you buy the Black Hills version. They specifically had Barnes make it tougher to go through auto glass and will not expand as well at distance (1900 fps vs 2300 fps expansion threshold).

DocGKR does reccomend the 50 gr over 300blk for urban users as it penetrates 12-18" vs the 18"+ for 110gr. black tip...

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?133105-Opinion-5-56-amp-300BLK-wtih-TSX-rounds



Buford, my point of the last post was IIRC, the "black tip" expands down to 1,300 fps. I totally understand your argument about it being a pistol caliber ballistics at 250-300+ yards, but it is an expanded pistol caliber at 70 yards farther than what a 50 or 70 gr. TSX could deliver. I'd much rather create a jagged hole than a 22 or 30 caliber hole. I'll have to read up more on the Gold dot offerings, on face value it seems it may be an even better choice than the Barnes offerings.



Here are some examples from other threads that I've posted recently:



Here is a reply from another thread.

www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?176100-5-56-vs-5-45-vs-300-blk-in-a-8-inch-sbr

35901


300BLK with the right load is effective out to 320-360 yards (9 inch barrel).... also less flash and concussion than a 8" 5.56. I personally wouldn't go less than 11.5" for a 5.56 SBR.

An example of the 70gr. TSX: 2,400 FPS out of a 8" 5.56 would yield effective expansion to 200-230 yards. A 11.5" barrel would yield 2,600 fps and reliable expansion to 300 yards...... this is even assuming you can get the 70gr. bullet moving that fast. I was optimistic in my numbers for the 5.56 load as the graphs represent the 62 gr. M855 round.

ETA:

From another thread:




5.56 barrel lengths with 62gr. M855 "green tip"

www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=1093

35902

35903

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I have 2 similar uppers that are set up for my wife's SBR.

1. 11.5" 5.56 BCM KMR with a SF 5.56-RC
2. 9" 300blk BCM KMR with a SiCO Omega (6" OAL: direct thread with flat end cap)


The 300blk is lighter, shorter and has less flash/concussion unsuppressed than the 5.56 version. If OAL and weight is a concern than 300blk cannot be beat IMHO. 5.56 with the correct ammo can do 70-90% of what 300blk can do and in some cases may be the better option (i.e. urban environment where over penetration is a concern).

Once sub sonic 300 blk with expanding bullets become common the 300 blk may become better in many areas [emoji41]
Hopes dreams and unicorns i suppose

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

[domestique]

Probably old news to some, but here is a new offering from Hornady that is promising for 5.56 SBR users. Hopefully it is actually available to the average consumer.

According to the Hornady rep it will expand down to 1500-1600 fps (around 200 yards out of 10.5-11.5" barrel), and is suitable for use up to 14.5" barrels.


http://www.hornadyle.com/products/rifle-ammunition/556-nato/75-gr-tap-sbr

"TAP® SBR™ is designed specifically for 10.5"-11.5" SBR’s by using proprietary propellant technology and a bullet designed with technology from industry leading Critical Duty® FlexLock® bullets. TAP® SBR™ provides exceptional ammunition performance in SBR’s suppressed or unsuppressed, with virtually no flash or residue, dramatically reduced sound signature, will not foul or overheat suppressors, uniform velocity and accuracy, and provides controllable rate of fire in automatic platforms. Designed to meet the requirements of the FBI protocol, TAP® SBR™ is the optimum choice for 10.5"-11.5" barreled 5.56 rifles."



This is the NEW 75 grain TAP® SBR cartridge in caliber 5.56 NATO. Hornady Item No. 81295. Packaged 20 rounds per box, 10 individual boxes in each order. All have identical lot numbers. The new 5.56 TAP SBR meets FBI protocol through all six barriers and is the first load specifically designed for short-barreled rifles.

At the heat of this 5.56 NATO load is the NEW 75 grain TAP SBR bullet - infused with technology from the industry leading Critical Duty FlexLock pistol bullets.

The TAP SBR utilizes a new propellant developed specifically for optimal performance in short-barreled rifles, and exhibits exceptional performance in both suppressed and unsuppressed rifles.

Sound signature tests have shown significant reductions of 6 to 7 decibels compared to other loads. In addition, the dramatic efficiency of the propellant results in a 15 to 20 percent temperature reduction. It delivers a progressive burn rate, yet burns clean with minimal flash.

•Specifically Designed and Optimized for short-barreled rifles (10.5"-11.5")
•Meets FBI protocol though all six barriers

•Proprietary propellant technology
•6-7 db sound signature reduction suppressed
•Low Flash
•Exceeds FBI accuracy standards
•Muzzle velocity: 2321 fps out of 11.5" 5.56 NATO test barrel 1:7"
•Muzzle energy: 897 ft lbs

[BufordTJustice]

But you've overlooked the fact that the word "effective" is being used in a deceptive manner. Mind you, I am not accusing you of using it deceptively, but the word keeps getting thrown around without appropriate context. Past 150-175 yards from a 9.5" barrel, the 300 BLK Black Tip is acting as a HANDGUN PROJECTILE that is smaller in diameter than 9mm....i.e. it's not creating a temp cavity that is able to create damage outside of the permanent crush cavity of the bullet itself. This bullet which is behaving as a HANDGUN PROJECTILE, should expand out past 300 meters.

But there is an enormous drop-off of terminal performance after rounds drop below 1800 fps, as described above, and this has been noted by Doc Roberts, Doc Fackler, and others. So, "effective range" in terms of handgun terminal ballistics and "effective range" in terms of rifle terminal ballistics are two entirely different things.

Look at the distance at which the bullets drop below 1800fps; that is the distance that counts because its at that point that bullets begin to act as handgun projectiles instead of rifle projectiles. Anything past that, and .300BLK is more accurately compared to expanding 9mm HPs than any rifle round...and same goes for 5.56.


Quality post, and in no way am I trying to disparage 5.56 users. I only recommend 300blk to friends if they meet certain criteria (1. they reload or don't need to budget expenses, 2. they are running a SBR and suppressor, 3. they already own 5.56 rifles) as the extra juice isn't always worth the squeeze.

One PSA for anyone looking at 50 gr TSX. Just be careful if you buy the Black Hills version. They specifically had Barnes make it tougher to go through auto glass and will not expand as well at distance (1900 fps vs 2300 fps expansion threshold).

DocGKR does reccomend the 50 gr over 300blk for urban users as it penetrates 12-18" vs the 18"+ for 110gr. black tip...

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?133105-Opinion-5-56-amp-300BLK-wtih-TSX-rounds



Buford, my point of the last post was IIRC, the "black tip" expands down to 1,300 fps. I totally understand your argument about it being a pistol caliber ballistics at 250-300+ yards, but it is an expanded pistol caliber at 70 yards farther than what a 50 or 70 gr. TSX could deliver. I'd much rather create a jagged hole than a 22 or 30 caliber hole. I'll have to read up more on the Gold dot offerings, on face value it seems it may be an even better choice than the Barnes offerings.



Here are some examples from other threads that I've posted recently:



Here is a reply from another thread.

www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?176100-5-56-vs-5-45-vs-300-blk-in-a-8-inch-sbr

35901


300BLK with the right load is effective out to 320-360 yards (9 inch barrel).... also less flash and concussion than a 8" 5.56. I personally wouldn't go less than 11.5" for a 5.56 SBR.

An example of the 70gr. TSX: 2,400 FPS out of a 8" 5.56 would yield effective expansion to 200-230 yards. A 11.5" barrel would yield 2,600 fps and reliable expansion to 300 yards...... this is even assuming you can get the 70gr. bullet moving that fast. I was optimistic in my numbers for the 5.56 load as the graphs represent the 62 gr. M855 round.

ETA:

From another thread:




5.56 barrel lengths with 62gr. M855 "green tip"

www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=1093

35902

35903

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I have 2 similar uppers that are set up for my wife's SBR.

1. 11.5" 5.56 BCM KMR with a SF 5.56-RC
2. 9" 300blk BCM KMR with a SiCO Omega (6" OAL: direct thread with flat end cap)


The 300blk is lighter, shorter and has less flash/concussion unsuppressed than the 5.56 version. If OAL and weight is a concern than 300blk cannot be beat IMHO. 5.56 with the correct ammo can do 70-90% of what 300blk can do and in some cases may be the better option (i.e. urban environment where over penetration is a concern).

[domestique]

But you've overlooked the fact that the word "effective" is being used in a deceptive manner. Mind you, I am not accusing you of using it deceptively, but the word keeps getting thrown around without appropriate context. Past 150-175 yards from a 9.5" barrel, the 300 BLK Black Tip is acting as a HANDGUN PROJECTILE that is smaller in diameter than 9mm....i.e. it's not creating a temp cavity that is able to create damage outside of the permanent crush cavity of the bullet itself. This bullet which is behaving as a HANDGUN PROJECTILE, should expand out past 300 meters.

But there is an enormous drop-off of terminal performance after rounds drop below 1800 fps, as described above, and this has been noted by Doc Roberts, Doc Fackler, and others. So, "effective range" in terms of handgun terminal ballistics and "effective range" in terms of rifle terminal ballistics are two entirely different things.

Look at the distance at which the bullets drop below 1800fps; that is the distance that counts because its at that point that bullets begin to act as handgun projectiles instead of rifle projectiles. Anything past that, and .300BLK is more accurately compared to expanding 9mm HPs than any rifle round...and same goes for 5.56.

It wasn't overlooked. I even mentioned pistol ballistics in my post, and that I agreed with you.

My point is that at 300 yards 110 Blacktip is giving an EXPANDING bullet that no 5.56 loads at that distance can replicate. There is no magic bullet, but having an expanding bullet, even at handgun velocities is better than a 22 caliber bullet that isn't expanding at all.

Ultimately the mission drives the gear. I use a multitude of calibers.

5.56 for cheap training and within the home
300blk for within the home, hog hunting and out to 200 yards
308 out to 600 yards
6.5CM out to 1,000 yards
300 RUM past 1K.


ETA: Just for arguments sake, use a regular 30 caliber bullet in 300blk..... you are getting similar terminal ballistics as 5.56 (10.5-11.5" barrels) in a 8-9" platform. There will also be less flash and concussion if your are not using a suppressor. There is no arguing that 300blk is better in sub 10" platforms. If money, availability is a concern, then I totally support 5.56. But for me and my house, I use 300blk.


Great discussion. Thanks for bringing to my attention the newer 5.56 offerings.

[mattpittinger]

It wasn't overlooked. I even mentioned pistol ballistics in my post, and that I agreed with you.

My point is that at 300 yards 110 Blacktip is giving an EXPANDING bullet that no 5.56 loads at that distance can replicate. There is no magic bullet, but having an expanding bullet, even at handgun velocities is better than a 22 caliber bullet that isn't expanding at all.

Ultimately the mission drives the gear. I use a multitude of calibers.

5.56 for cheap training and within the home
300blk for within the home, hog hunting and out to 200 yards
308 out to 600 yards
6.5CM out to 1,000 yards
300 RUM past 1K.

This!
Mission dictates use. They all have their strong points, and each are great in their own regard if used within the task each was designed to fill.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BufordTJustice]

It wasn't overlooked. I even mentioned pistol ballistics in my post, and that I agreed with you.

My point is that at 300 yards 110 Blacktip is giving an EXPANDING bullet that no 5.56 loads at that distance can replicate. There is no magic bullet, but having an expanding bullet, even at handgun velocities is better than a 22 caliber bullet that isn't expanding at all.

Ultimately the mission drives the gear. I use a multitude of calibers.

5.56 for cheap training and within the home
300blk for within the home, hog hunting and out to 200 yards
308 out to 600 yards
6.5CM out to 1,000 yards
300 RUM past 1K.

You're wrong in bold.

For example, Hornady 5.56 TAP 70gr GMX is at its expansion threshold at 300 yards from an 11.5" barrel and is STILL creating a rifle temp cavity. That's almost twice the distance that black tip can create a rifle-level-wound from a 9" barrel; where it's tapping out at under 200 yards...and possibly closer to 150 yards. I've already shown that.

But I suspect you're not listening at this point. You really want 300 Black to be something that it's not; a replacement for 5.56.

Your premise that you're willing to trade nearly 150 additional yards of RIFLE WOUNDING ABILITY because you found something that maintains 9mm-ish handgun performance out to 350-or-so?

So you prefer a 150 yard rifle + 200 yards of handgun terminal performance to 300 yards of honest-to-gawd rifle terminal performance? I don't understand your reasoning.


EDIT: I'm getting the impression that you're not recognizing the difference between expanded final diameter and overall wound cavity when comparing handgun and rifle wounds.

[domestique]

You're wrong in bold.

For example, Hornady 5.56 TAP 70gr GMX is at its expansion threshold at 300 yards from an 11.5" barrel and is STILL creating a rifle temp cavity. That's almost twice the distance that black tip can create a rifle-level-wound from a 9" barrel; where it's tapping out at under 200 yards...and possibly closer to 150 yards. I've already shown that.

But I suspect you're not listening at this point. You really want 300 Black to be something that it's not; a replacement for 5.56.

Your premise that you're willing to trade nearly 150 additional yards of RIFLE WOUNDING ABILITY because you found something that maintains 9mm-ish handgun performance out to 350-or-so?

So you prefer a 150 yard rifle + 200 yards of handgun terminal performance to 300 yards of honest-to-gawd rifle terminal performance? I don't understand your reasoning.


EDIT: I'm getting the impression that you're not recognizing the difference between expanded final diameter and overall wound cavity when comparing handgun and rifle wounds.

I'm at a family function right now and can't run my ballistic program. Let me get back to you. My one concern with your desire for temporal stretch cavity is dependent on the target you're shooting. Are you only concerned with 2 legged threats, or game that have thick hides and shoulder bones.



I'm retyping this, as I edited my last post late, and you didn't include it.

Just for arguments sake, use a regular 5.56 and 30 caliber bullet in 300blk..... you are getting similar terminal ballistics as 5.56 (10.5-11.5" barrels) in a 8-9" platform. There will also be less flash and concussion if your are not using a suppressor. There is no arguing that 300blk is better in sub 10" platforms. If money, availability is a concern, then I totally support 5.56. But for me and my house, I use 300blk.



Great discussion. Thanks for bringing to my attention the newer 5.56 offerings.

[Eurodriver]

I am not a fan of having multiple calibers. I tried the whole 308, 300, 223 thing. That's a pain in the ass.

For me, 223 does everything I need so it's all I have.

I can shoot anything from 0-1000 yards with it, and outside of hunting or some ridiculous Mad Max SHTF situation where I am shooting >600 yards I can grab one rifle and it will do everything I need to do from 0-600.

The 300BLK I had simply would not reach 600 yards no matter what. That's annoying. When you add the dies, the brass, the bullets, the ammo, and the potential for mixing it up with 223 it wasn't worth it.

The new TAP SBR and even the 64gr Gold Dot rounds have significantly increased the effective range of a 10.5" AR15 to the point that there is very little benefiting 300BLK other than subsonic cycling.

[domestique]

You're wrong in bold.

For example, Hornady 5.56 TAP 70gr GMX is at its expansion threshold at 300 yards from an 11.5" barrel and is STILL creating a rifle temp cavity. That's almost twice the distance that black tip can create a rifle-level-wound from a 9" barrel; where it's tapping out at under 200 yards...and possibly closer to 150 yards. I've already shown that.

But I suspect you're not listening at this point. You really want 300 Black to be something that it's not; a replacement for 5.56.

Your premise that you're willing to trade nearly 150 additional yards of RIFLE WOUNDING ABILITY because you found something that maintains 9mm-ish handgun performance out to 350-or-so?

So you prefer a 150 yard rifle + 200 yards of handgun terminal performance to 300 yards of honest-to-gawd rifle terminal performance? I don't understand your reasoning.


EDIT: I'm getting the impression that you're not recognizing the difference between expanded final diameter and overall wound cavity when comparing handgun and rifle wounds.


Please send my crow smoked, and Carolina style with Cole slaw on top.

I took a look at some of the manufacturer's data and I must admit Buford, the GMX and some of the other newer 5.56 rounds are very impressive. Past 200 yards some of the 5.56 loads out of a 11.5" SBR are still carrying the higher velocities needed for temporal stretch tissue damage. As a hunter of game and not people, I've always put more value in heavier bullets that can break bone and punch through tough muscle. Most of the guides down in TN won't even allow 5.56 caliber to hunt hogs. I still hold to the point that 300blk is a more versatile round in the sense that it is a better choice for sub 10" barrel PDWs and the ability to replicate a MP5SD with subsonic ammo. I'll reiterate that I've never been a 5.56 hater, and still recommend it to friends that would rather not reload, have a SBR or suppressing.


If you are comparing similar barrel lengths (10.5"+) 300blk to 5.56 I fully agree that 5.56 is just as good when both are using premium ammo. When 5.56 barrel length gets below 10.5", I am still going to argue that 300blk is better (lighter, shorter, less flash/concussion).


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?131098-What-is-quot-rifle-velocity-quot


Where does rifle velocity begin? Terminally, I mean. To the point where permanent crush-cavity of tissue actually touched by the projectile is not the only wounding mechanism?

Is there a "barrier", such as a 50-150fps or something range at which a rapid transition in wounding mechanism takes place, such as:

13-1400fps = Crush cavity only
1450+ = TC causing permanent meaningful injury as well

Does it "taper off", for example, a wound caused by a projectile at 2700fps doesn't look much worse than one caused by the same projectile at 1700fps (barring fragmentation or more robust expansion of course)? Or will a wound caused at 1700 fps be meaningfully less severe than one at 2,000 fps, and then 2200fps, and so on?

*All of this line of questioning assumes a non-fragmenting, robustly expanding bullet like Barnes or Gold Dot.


Assuming the parameters you noted, somewhere around 2000 fps or so, the TC starts getting large enough to produce significant stretch injuries, but keep in mind it is a continuum. TC also depends on the size of the projectile--some slower expanding .45-70 and .44 Mag loads, as well as 12 ga slugs can also create an impressive amount of stretch damage at lower velocities.


My angle is...is a 300BLK 110gr TTSX a 9mm pistol that does OK against body armor, past 100 yards?

Velocity at 100 yards when fired from a 9" barrel: @1900fps (based on @2200fps MV, and .295BC)
Exanded diameter: 0.585
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/300aacblkbarriersummary.jpg

That falls below "rifle velocity", and the expanded diameter is solidly in "decent 9mm" performance range.

Have I purchased a really accurate shoulder-fired 9mm pistol? We all agree that a 70gr TSX from a 5.56 is far superior to the 9mm in any flavor. Should I stick with a 5.56 in 10.5" barrel (around 2500fps with the Brown Tip I have), terminally, as opposed to 110gr TTSX from my 10.3"? Why/why not? The "raw data" suggests that the 5.56 is vastly superior at this point, unless I am mistaken?


Generally 10 mm does not get there...

.300 BLK TTSX nicely expanded at 1900 fps is "somewhere around 2000 fps or so", as noted above...

While both work, I'd rather have a .300 BLK using 110 gr TTSX over a 5.56 mm using 70 gr TSX when fired out of a 8-10" barrel.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




I am not a fan of having multiple calibers. I tried the whole 308, 300, 223 thing. That's a pain in the ass.

For me, 223 does everything I need so it's all I have.

I can shoot anything from 0-1000 yards with it, and outside of hunting or some ridiculous Mad Max SHTF situation where I am shooting >600 yards I can grab one rifle and it will do everything I need to do from 0-600.

The 300BLK I had simply would not reach 600 yards no matter what. That's annoying. When you add the dies, the brass, the bullets, the ammo, and the potential for mixing it up with 223 it wasn't worth it.

The new TAP SBR and even the 64gr Gold Dot rounds have significantly increased the effective range of a 10.5" AR15 to the point that there is very little benefiting 300BLK other than subsonic cycling.

All depends what you are into. I'm a hunter and also shoot PRS matches. 5.56 is not going to win any PRS events where 6.5CM and other higher BC rounds are competing, and are not going to put down Elk at 700 yards. Reloading is also a relaxing hobby of mine, and I enjoy working up different loads for different calibers. I can play a round of golf with just a 9 iron.... but where is the fun in that?





Great discussion. I appreciate everyone's input, and the topic has opened my eyes to the usability of 5.56 in a 10.5"+ platform.

[Eurodriver]

For sure. I'm not really a "gun guy", more of a "shooter guy". Guns don't really interest me at all, which is why every time I head to the "Other Semi Auto Rifle" forum or 1911 forum I tend to leave scratching my head. Dudes getting so hype over a $3,000 1911 or a $2,500 SIG MCX. Used $350 G19 and a $800 Colt M4 for me, please. This really hindered my ability to like the 300BLK from the get go. I just want simplicity.

Put another way, you mention golfing with a 9 iron. Sure, a golfist may enjoy having a complete set of bats to accomplish every task to the best of his ability. But wouldn't most amateurs benefit from learning the ins and outs of a 9 iron until they knew it like the back of their hand? I still can't figure out 5.56mm trajectories at a 90* angle beyond 200 yards, nor can I hit an IPSC left handed at 25 yards while moving...I've got a long way to go until I can justify having a caliber cache.

[domestique]

For sure. I'm not really a "gun guy", more of a "shooter guy". Guns don't really interest me at all, which is why every time I head to the "Other Semi Auto Rifle" forum or 1911 forum I tend to leave scratching my head. Dudes getting so hype over a $3,000 1911 or a $2,500 SIG MCX. Used $350 G19 and a $800 Colt M4 for me, please. This really hindered my ability to like the 300BLK from the get go. I just want simplicity.

Put another way, you mention golfing with a 9 iron. Sure, a golfist may enjoy having a complete set of bats to accomplish every task to the best of his ability. But wouldn't most amateurs benefit from learning the ins and outs of a 9 iron until they knew it like the back of their hand? I still can't figure out 5.56mm trajectories at a 90* angle beyond 200 yards, nor can I hit an IPSC left handed at 25 yards while moving...I've got a long way to go until I can justify having a caliber cache.

That's totally commendable, and am in total agreement on people that seek the latest and greatest tool when they haven't mastered the basics. I'd rather have a friend that has one AR and fires 10K a year then a guy with 20 ARs, but never takes them out of the safe. I'm as practical as they come, but have also screwed up enough DIY jobs trying to make a certain tool fit something it wasn't designed for. If a rifle doesn't get shot within a year or doesn't serve a specific purpose (competition, subsonic shooting in the backyard, Elk rifle etc.) it's sold off for more bullets, and reloading components.

[williejc]

I agree about the $3000 1911. I can get all the whistles and bells put on a NIB 1911 for $650-700. You have to know who and where to take the gun for the work. This price does not include refinishing.

[BufordTJustice]

Domestique, i give you a ton of credit for admitting you were wrong, and doing the research on your own.

300 is a good cartridge. So is 5.56. I think they're both here to stay.

[tom12.7]

While I only glanced at the prior postings, there seems to be more of a conversation concerning terminal ballistics and costs.
A more comprehensive approach may include possible effects of the base mechanism itself. That and what can be done to diminish negative attributes and improve more positive attributes.
Taking the base 20" rifle action 5.56 as a baseline. The carbine action based 5.56 system in shorter barrel and gas system lengths adds its own issues over the baseline system. Making the system more like the base system can help many thing in terms of how it operates.
Now, let us add in another cartridge variable, the 300 Blackout. Looking at the possible shorter than base 20" 5.56 offerings, there is a difference in how the system operates. The base mechanism may not use as much applied energy to operate, as the forces/pressures are much lower. The extra work needed to operate the system isn't there that generated this drag on the system with it's potential negatives associated with them. Similar can happen in the bore size to volume change with the blackout.
I would be curious to see open third party evaluations in function and life cycle for trends in possible use for a limit down to 5.56 11.5" carbine and rifle actions, with 300 Blackout down to 9" with the same actions. Supersonics only for this context.
It does get interesting when you look into this and the erosion capacity of muzzle pressure.

[jethroUSMC]

Well I have to say that the only time I shot a suppressed 5.56 it was way louder then a 10/22 but I have no idea what suppressor he was using. He was using m855 as ammo though.

So your saying that a 10.5-11.5 inch 5.56 suppressed is hearing safe with bulk ammo?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No suppressor is OSHA hearing safe which is below 80Db. It's more comfortable but there is still hearing damage being done, just less.

[jethroUSMC]

Outside of boutique subsonic ammo for the 300BLK, the general consensus is that subs will NOT expand at any range.

You are better off ballistically with 9mm/45 and appropriate ammo.

Correct on the expansion. However, my experience with 220 or 240 grains it looks like a hatchet or machete came out the exit wound - with SMK's nothing exotic like a Lehigh bullet which do expand at subsonic velocities.