View Full Version : As good as? Really?
Colt on the left, DPMS on the right.
Wonder what else they cut corners on....
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/CHARGING-HANDLES-1.jpg
I scratch my head what they try to accomplish (besides saving one cent) by removing material from chagrin handle that WILL be used to clear malfunctions such as stuck case.
DMPS :rolleyes:
Okay, I don't normally do this, but I'm going to play the devil's advocate for a second...in this particular instance, what's it matter? Assuming that the thickness of the "T" section is the only difference, that is.
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of valid reasons not to run DPMS's junk, I just wonder if we're getting wrapped around the axle a bit in this case.
Okay, I don't normally do this, but I'm going to play the devil's advocate for a second...in this particular instance, what's it matter? Assuming that the thickness of the "T" section is the only difference, that is.
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of valid reasons not to run DPMS's junk, I just wonder if we're getting wrapped around the axle a bit in this case.
Ever mortared a carbine? Ever had it not work? The next step for me is to stomp the charging handle, or slam the CH on a bench or truck tailgate or bumper. Think the DPMS version will hold up?
I thought all you get when you buy a Colt is the logo? :confused:
:p
Interesting. I'm going to check out my CH's this weekend.
ETA: Are they both made of the same material? Are they both steel or aluminum?
Ever mortared a carbine? Ever had it not work? The next step for me is to stomp the charging handle, or slam the CH on a bench or truck tailgate or bumper. Think the DPMS version will hold up?
Yes, I've mortared; no I've not had the displeasure of having that fail to pull the bolt back. Do I think the DPMS version is more likely to fail? I guess that depends on if the failure mode involves snapping a leg off of the "T" section. I think bending it is more likely, and personally I'd rather turn the "T" into an "L" than into an upper-case "J". I think could improvise my carbine into still running easier with a 1-armed handle than a bent-in-two handle.
Like I said, no disagreement that the DPMS stuff is inferior. No reason not to get the Colt piece if it's available...but I don't think there's a need for everyone to be in their safes with dial calipers measuring the thickness of their charging handles, either.
No, I don't think it's something that people need to be measuring either.
It is, as usual, simply a symptom of a greater problem; a company that doesn't know what they're doing.
It is, as usual, simply a symptom of a greater problem; a company that doesn't know what they're doing.
Are these both the same metal?
No, I don't think it's something that people need to be measuring either.
It is, as usual, simply a symptom of a greater problem; a company that doesn't know what they're doing.
Full agreement with you there. I'll admit i'm curious now, IIRC my old CH is an LMT and i've got a CMT one on the way from grant, I'll have to compare the two just for grins :D
johnson601
08-28-08, 11:22
I thought all you get when you buy a Colt is the logo? :confused:
:p
Funny you should say that. My friend asked my advice on what kind of ar he should get, I told him the usual Colt, LMT, ect... So he went to a gun shop and asked for info on a Colt 6920, long story short left with a DPMS something or other. Now he is mad a me for telling him to buy a Colt because this idiot at the gun shop told him that DPMS is much better quality and Colt costs so much more because of the logo. I give up. This happened three days ago btw..
I noticed a big difference between a DPMS (now sold) CH and forged CH from CMMG. The semi-circle and adjacent square corners were wider on the CMMG, tho' I don't recall the thickness you've photo'd.
ETA: I checked, and the thickness of the CMMG looks like the Colt.
twodollarbill
08-28-08, 11:41
With todays economy....some salesmen will do anything to GET a sale.
My quote of the day :)
Provide you're smarter...Live by what you know and just shake your head at what someone tells you.
Your friend trusted the wrong guy,happens every day .it could be worse ,he should be glad he didn't trust the wrong doctor . I had a friend that went into the VA to get a knee problem fixed and ended up with an infection that attacked his heart mussles.the knee is still F*cked up and now his heart is also shot and he is in a wheelchair .:mad:
Interesting, I went and checked my guns and my charles daly has a charging handle like the colt, but my bushmaster has one like the dpms.
This is a common component to overlook in inspection. Some CHs are wafer thin in construction, and will bend easily. Those a bit more stout, but still not "quality", bend easily with many of the extended charging handle latches. Observed.
Colt on the left, DPMS on the right.
Wonder what else they cut corners on....
So is the DPMS CH cast instead of forged?
John Hearne
08-28-08, 17:17
Our issue carbine is an FN A2 with a DPMS safety installed to nueter it. I was issuing a gun to a new officer who is gun savvy and he was checking the gun out. I heard him say "Ummm" and looked up to see what had happened. The raised portion of the safety that you'd activate with your thumb had snapped off. He wasn't putting any pressure on it, it just freaking snapped.
I always love "as good as."
I have seen many a broken and cracked charging handle. Have your CH snap as you are trying to remove a stuck case and then tell us what you think of the cheap charging handle! ;)
I know I am beating a dead horse, but companies that do not follow the TDP, follow no standard at all. This means that they use the cheapest parts on the planet (in all areas). Buyer beware.
C4
So I looked at my Sabre and RRA charging handles and they appear to be the same thickness. Are they considered acceptable? Is the top of the charging handle supposed to be even with the top of the rail?
EDIT: Nevermind. Comparing it to the pic they both look like the Colt.
Are these both the same metal?
I personally do not like the DPMS stuff but in this case is this aluminum vs aluminum? Rmecapn raised the question...DPMS does make a steel CH. I have never seen one but that may make a difference. I personally use a PRI M84 and will continue to do so on any carbine I build.
Boltgun
Failure2Stop
08-30-08, 14:41
It is, as usual, simply a symptom of a greater problem; a company that doesn't know what they're doing.
Actually, I think that you might be wrong on this one- They know exactly what they are doing, and that is even worse.
And while the thickness of the charging handle may or may not induce failure, it certainly does not bode well for their QC on more obscure points.
I am going to try and get some pics of the BM charging handles at another site that are all breaking. In some cases the roll pin securing the latch is shearing and in other cases the handles are becoming warped. As soon as I have some detailed info I will post it here.
you can trust DPMS to cut corners and save a buck at your expense
Full agreement with you there. I'll admit i'm curious now, IIRC my old CH is an LMT and i've got a CMT one on the way from grant, I'll have to compare the two just for grins :D
For whatever it's worth, I I just compared my new CMT (got yesterday) and old LMT (I think LMT, 2005ish) handles and they both are thicker.
I was thinking my older handle was thinner, but I was wrong. That's what I get for "thinking" instead of "knowing" ;)
Blankwaffe
08-30-08, 20:07
The charging handle is a detail Ive completely overlooked.
Yall can add Armalite to the thin list also.
Compared the charging handles from my old Armalite A2 upper and new LMT upper to the brand spankin new Armalite upper.The old Armalite and LMT are identicle,the charging handle out of the new Armalite 20" upper is thin like the DPMS pictured.
Man yall continue to cause me to spend money.
I can tell you from personal experience that a factory Colt handle will break. Buy a steel one if you absolutely must have a "no fail" part.
Actually, I think that you might be wrong on this one- They know exactly what they are doing, and that is even worse.
And while the thickness of the charging handle may or may not induce failure, it certainly does not bode well for their QC on more obscure points.
Emails that I have received from DPMS and Olympic with regards to the chart indicate to me that, while perhaps there is some bean counter at the top that knows what they are doing is jacked up, the rank and file really have no idea how screwed up their products are.
Contrast that with Bushmaster, which has shown that they are capable of producing a proper rifle when demanded but chose not to in order to enhance profits.
When Bushmaster was sold things changed,some say for the better some say for the worse . I find thier current rifles to be a crap shoot . if you get a good one fine if you don't they will fix it . no way to do things if you ask me .looks like they are trying to get away with doing it right the first time and hopeing no one notices. :rolleyes:
I bought a DPMS carbine before I found this site and the issues I have seen posted about them have me wondering. Do they produce a better quality rifle for the LE market or did I just get lucky? My charging hand looks like the colt in the OPs picture. The bolt carrier that came on my rifle and the spare I ordered later both have properly staked gas keys. The question is, if they can and do make solid parts, why not put them on all their products?
AnimalMother556
09-01-08, 19:59
If I'm not mistaken some CH's are forged and the cheaper one's are extruded.
I bought a DPMS carbine before I found this site and the issues I have seen posted about them have me wondering. Do they produce a better quality rifle for the LE market or did I just get lucky? My charging hand looks like the colt in the OPs picture. The bolt carrier that came on my rifle and the spare I ordered later both have properly staked gas keys. The question is, if they can and do make solid parts, why not put them on all their products?
I guess it's the luck of the draw. I have one that came from DPMS with a FF handguard, the gas key was staked correctly and it had M4 feedramps. The charging handle is not thin like the one in the picture. The barrel is not chrome lined, but for my intended use, is not a problem for me. The castle nut was not staked but I took care of that when I replaced the buffer tube with a mil-spec.
It would not surprise me to see a thing DPMS handle in one gun and a thick one in another. One of the problems with DPMS is a lack of a standard that allows them to buy parts and pieces wherever, regardless of quality.
That handle is probably 3+ years old as well and they may have changed vendors again.
If you all have DPMS carbines with staked keys and M4 feedramps I'd love to hear about them in the chart thread (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642&highlight=chart). Maybe something is getting through to them. Either that, or maybe you have a different model than what I'm showing in the chart and I need to change models.? The AP-4 Carbine (http://dpmsinc.com/store/products/?prod=46) is the one that's in the chart now. AFAIK the only difference between this and the LE models is the barrel length.
It would not surprise me to see a thing DPMS handle in one gun and a thick one in another. One of the problems with DPMS is a lack of a standard that allows them to buy parts and pieces wherever, regardless of quality.
That handle is probably 3+ years old as well and they may have changed vendors again.
If you all have DPMS carbines with staked keys and M4 feedramps I'd love to hear about them in the chart thread (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642&highlight=chart). Maybe something is getting through to them. Either that, or maybe you have a different model than what I'm showing in the chart and I need to change models.? The AP-4 Carbine (http://dpmsinc.com/store/products/?prod=46) is the one that's in the chart now. AFAIK the only difference between this and the LE models is the barrel length.
Rob, I wouldn't change the chart based on mine. Maybe I just got lucky. I'm not sure what model it is. As I said earlier, it came with a one piece free float handguard, (no markings), no carry handle. It looked interesting so I pulled the BCG and it was staked well and I saw the M4 ramps, so I took it home. I guess time will tell if I got lucky or not.
BushmasterFanBoy
09-02-08, 08:23
It would not surprise me to see a thing DPMS handle in one gun and a thick one in another. One of the problems with DPMS is a lack of a standard that allows them to buy parts and pieces wherever, regardless of quality.
That handle is probably 3+ years old as well and they may have changed vendors again.
If you all have DPMS carbines with staked keys and M4 feedramps I'd love to hear about them in the chart thread (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642&highlight=chart). Maybe something is getting through to them. Either that, or maybe you have a different model than what I'm showing in the chart and I need to change models.? The AP-4 Carbine (http://dpmsinc.com/store/products/?prod=46) is the one that's in the chart now. AFAIK the only difference between this and the LE models is the barrel length.
This could easily explain instances of proper staking, etc. as well. When QC is so low, eventually the "wrong" way will be done "wrong" so often it may end up being right.
The two charging handles that I've broken didn't brake at the rear. They broke at the front 90-degree bend. I now use the DPMS steel handle with the PRI flat latch on my personal guns.
FWIW, when FN started making M16A2s for the Army, they changed the size of the forward assist [made it smaller] but it was still acceptable. Most likely, the MilSpec didn't address the diameter of the FA so FN went a less expensive route. The DPMS charging handle may be the same sort of thing.
ok please dont flame me on this one ! i have been around abit with weapons civy and mil -heard the words'' bulk producer'' a maker of parts like olyarms who makes alot of parts for others like colt and others etc its just like the auto parts the same way! colt needs parts rewrap it in box for colt now its colt as dpms but some ask for better steel or not ! yes may be smoked by assembler/builder not real maker so you have a dpms and 50% from olyarms 50% from where? it does the to bottom line who makes what and who uses what !Do the damn research out what you using and built wisely -I learned this one the hard way and it almost killed me once!
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