View Full Version : General Petraeus joins Mark Kelly forming new gun control group
FlyingHunter
06-10-16, 18:08
From the Daily Gator:
Gen. David Petraeus and retired astronaut Mark Kelly announced Friday they are forming a new gun control group for veterans.
The Veterans Coalition for Common Sense will push to strengthen gun background check laws and help prevent veterans from committing suicide. It pointed to several alarming statistics about the military and gun violence.
In addition to Petraeus, the former CIA director, and Kelly, a number of other generals and admirals will join the group, including another former CIA director, Michael Hayden, and retired Adm. Thad Allen.
Shilling for universal background checks has nothing at all to do with stopping military suicides, which tend to take place with firearms that veterans have long-owned after passing background checks.
If Petreasonous gave a damn about the soldiers and Marines that once served under him, he’d be fighting to get them the service they need from a Veterans Administration that seems equal parts incompetent and uncaring.
You have to pause and question when so many here run with open arms to embrace former military brass when it is hinted they might run for office.......they ain't all on our side folks.
No change......he has always been a douche bag......
military has traitors some were muslim and killed lots OH I meant work place violence
No change......he has always been a douche bag......
Yep, pretty much this....nothing new to see here. He has zero credibility left and he's only digging deeper. I'm not surprised at all, given his downfall, I would have bet money he was a leftist Douche Bag. They are all unprincipled people at heart and care more for themselves while feigning feelings for others. This is about what might be able to pull him out of the sewer by paying dues to the leftist agenda.
from what I know once you hit that level in military you are not as much a military guy as a political guy
the lower military answer to these people but these people answer to politicians for the most part !!!
ramairthree
06-10-16, 19:42
I think I have been looked down upon for pointing out the statist nature of some otherwise great GO/FO types here and especially the not so great ones in the past.
Some people like very controlled environments.
I think I have been looked down upon for pointing out the statist nature of some otherwise great GO/FO types here and especially the not so great ones in the past.
Some people like very controlled environments.
Borderline hippy-hair nowadays :D notwithstanding, I think your opinions are rather highly regarded here. You've BTDT and as a FGO you no doubt have rubbed elbows with unsavory counterparts.
VooDoo6Actual
06-10-16, 20:48
Risible, farcical & Reductio ad absurdum
Simultaneously ARMING, sponsoring, funding, training ISIS / Daesh et al while pushing for gun control in the US via false flags like crazy.
It's a lie, both of those men are of highly dubious character & have cut deals w/ the BORG. it's clearly broken & not going to be fixed. None of those two men are the american people's friends.
No truthful dialogue from them about known & proven False Flags to advance the anti-gun agenda.
Ignorance & indolence of people are they're power.
Notice nothing about SSRI's or "other" highly addictive psychotropic's (i.e. Xanax aka benzodiazapine today over 50 Million americans on the most widely prescribed drug or Ativan et al etc. that also are known to cause agitation or irritation).
Also nothing about psychotronic Weapons known to exist & being used & cause agitation & discernment issues for humans since humans are electro chemical beings & proven sensitive to ELF.
Here's another lie:
Why not just rob Peter to pay Paul?
Tax the few rich… and give the money to the many poor. Remember, it’s a majority rule system! Why won’t that work?
Have you forgotten? The voters don’t really control the system.
Peter does.
Speak truth to power, especially despot's & statist's.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-10-16, 22:19
BGC and suicide hotlines are far cheaper than un F'ing the VA.
I applaud them looking at suicides. I wish the NRA would act on this also. Since so many deaths from guns are suicides, if you take those numbers down, it would make a huge dent in the gun 'violence' and start to lay even more evidently that gang violence is the other major driver.
A disgrace to all prior and present vets.
Moose-Knuckle
06-11-16, 02:56
You got to appreciate the irony, these two want to "help" Veterans by taking away their inalienable rights protected by the COTUS that they served to defend.
Averageman
06-11-16, 06:21
Very Disturbing, Unfortunately, Not Surprising.
Once you rise so high up the air begins to thin, the peons and the rules all seem to be below you.
Icarus' father warns him first of complacency and then of hubris, asking that he fly neither too low nor too high, so the sea's dampness would not clog his wings or the sun's heat melt them. Icarus ignored his father's instructions not to fly too close to the sun, whereupon the wax in his wings melted and he fell into the sea.
That seems fitting for him.
The powers that be have so much dirt on Patraeus that he will dance to his puppet masters tune as long as he is useful.
Eurodriver
06-11-16, 07:16
Yeah, I seem to recall the anti-GO comments were directed at General James Mattis which is why it erupted into a "Wtf srs?" session. General Betray Us is no different than any other neo-con.
Let's not ever confuse a Marine with a Big Army politician ever again on this forum, ok?
Let's not ever confuse a Marine with a Big Army politician ever again on this forum, ok?
At least not until I run for Democratic Office so I can get some of that Bloomberg blood money. But seriously, best thing I've heard on the internet all week.;)
Yeah, I seem to recall the anti-GO comments were directed at General James Mattis which is why it erupted into a "Wtf srs?" session. General Betray Us is no different than any other neo-con.
Let's not ever confuse a Marine with a Big Army politician ever again on this forum, ok?
Does Amos ring a bell? ;)
Outlander Systems
06-11-16, 08:32
**** that clown.
Senior NCO > Uniformed Politican.
Eurodriver
06-11-16, 08:44
Does Amos ring a bell? ;)
That dude doesn't count for sooooo many reasons. Wingers aren't real Marines. Plus, he started his career in the Navy. Did he even go to OCS?
I hate to say it but the Corps brass is not impervious to corruption, bureaucratic BS, back door politics, cronyism, etc. I am sure though per capita it is far less than the big green weanie. This is shameful really.
That dude doesn't count for sooooo many reasons. Wingers aren't real Marines. Plus, he started his career in the Navy. Did he even go to OCS?
I dunno Euro, I saw a pic of him in a Marine uniform and he was Commandant (for 4 years no less!). Can't shake that one dude. It's like a booger on a Marine's finger he can't flick off no matter how hard he tries! :sarcastic:
It worries me when someone who is recognized as one of the top counter insurgency minds starts to take up domestic politics.
It worries me when someone who is recognized as one of the top counter insurgency minds starts to take up domestic politics.
That is a very valid concern come to think of it. Good catch.
It worries me when someone who is recognized as one of the top counter insurgency minds starts to take up domestic politics.
Dunno, not sure his doctrine worked that well. Big debates on current leadership about "COINista" doctrine.
I don't have an informed opinion one way or the other. But people who eat, sleep, and breath that stuff do, and it's very divisive.
Not sure how well "turn in your arms, rat out your neighbor, and we'll build a new well plus 10 chickens for each family" will work in my neighborhood.
his techniques require orders of magnitude (100x?) differential in economy/std of living to work. IE the capability to spend thousands to Millions on villages where a hundred dollars would normally be out of reach
That dude doesn't count for sooooo many reasons. Wingers aren't real Marines. Plus, he started his career in the Navy. Did he even go to OCS?
First off I'm a Winger and damn proud of it too, not my fault that the ASVAB was a little too much for some of you knuckle draggers;), but Amos was chosen as the Commandant because he listened to orders from on high. Don't ask, Don't tell was under him after all.
Retired GOs that espouse a conservative agenda are marginalized, if you want to stay mainstream you go liberal.
Petraeus?
People are still willing to give him attention?
If I were him, after all that stunting, I'd be living off my pension drunk erryday with a different dumbass girl on my arm errynight.
Politics would be the last thing on my mind
Moose-Knuckle
06-11-16, 17:22
It worries me when someone who is recognized as one of the top counter insurgency minds starts to take up domestic politics.
There are think tanks with lots of funding that are comprised of former Joint Chiefs and the like that sit around and dream up plan A, plan B, plan C, etc. for COG.
It's kind of why the gun control agenda, aka disarmament is a thing.
ramairthree
06-11-16, 17:23
Borderline hippy-hair nowadays :D notwithstanding, I think your opinions are rather highly regarded here. You've BTDT and as a FGO you no doubt have rubbed elbows with unsavory counterparts.
I have said before,
The amount of senior officers I have heard say only the military and police should have guns is surprising.
So yes, some unsavory types based on that but also on other things about them.
But, Some very, respectable, well meaning also happen to be statist, controlled environment fans. Guys I otherwise thought very highly of.
As for BTDT,
There are way more experienced guys than me.
While I am way more proud of whacking and rolling up savages on target in my 40s than which three star I got a top block OER from,
I was not an operator. There are two units I use that term for.
I had less than ten years enlisted. While I was active duty Infantry in a Ranger Bn in the 80s, four years in the 90s were just national guard while using my GI Bill. There are guys that spent over ten years straight in Ranger Bn during GWOT that have racked up like 500 objectives under their belt.
I chose to retire before O6 with twenty years as an officer on top of my enlisted time. While I was the DCO or acting commander of an O6 command for a significant period of time with GO and FO interaction, another year to pin on and then three more on top of that retire were more than I had left in me. Others have gone well over thirty years.
There are plenty of higher ranking guys than me out there.
I know tons of guys that have been on ten times as many objective and way hairier situations than me.
I guess it's all relative.
Now,
I just want to work as few hours as possible for as much money as possible,
Have as little interference from government and rules as possible,
Pay as little taxes as possible,
Spend as much time with family as possible,
Pretty much just do what I want and be left alone.
But the America today just seems to want us to work as much for as little as possible, interfere and jam us with as many rules as possible, tax the **** out us, tell us what we can and can't do to absurd degrees and not just leave us the **** alone.
I have said before,
The amount of senior officers I have heard say only the military and police should have guns is surprising.
So yes, some unsavory types based on that but also on other things about them.
But, Some very, respectable, well meaning also happen to be statist, controlled environment fans. Guys I otherwise thought very highly of.
As for BTDT,
There are way more experienced guys than me.
While I am way more proud of whacking and rolling up savages on target in my 40s than which three star I got a top block OER from,
I was not an operator. There are two units I use that term for.
I had less than ten years enlisted. While I was active duty Infantry in a Ranger Bn in the 80s, four years in the 90s were just national guard while using my GI Bill. There are guys that spent over ten years straight in Ranger Bn during GWOT that have racked up like 500 objectives under their belt.
I chose to retire before O6 with twenty years as an officer on top of my enlisted time. While I was the DCO or acting commander of an O6 command for a significant period of time with GO and FO interaction, another year to pin on and then three more on top of that retire were more than I had left in me. Others have gone well over thirty years.
There are plenty of higher ranking guys than me out there.
I know tons of guys that have been on ten times as many objective and way hairier situations than me.
I guess it's all relative.
Now,
I just want to work as few hours as possible for as much money as possible,
Have as little interference from government and rules as possible,
Pay as little taxes as possible,
Spend as much time with family as possible,
Pretty much just do what I want and be left alone.
But the America today just seems to want us to work as much for as little as possible, interfere and jam us with as many rules as possible, tax the **** out us, tell us what we can and can't do to absurd degrees and not just leave us the **** alone.
I said it before and I'll say it again: liberal ideas require forced mass participation. There is no just being left alone. It's not how they work. You and I want to own guns, but we don't want to make anyone else who does not want a gun to buy one. But alas, the opposite isn't true. In order for their fvcked-up agenda to work NO ONE can have guns. You and I may not care if a man wants to suck another man's dick (although we might prefer to skip seeing it!). However, the other side wants us to revel in it, to celebrate it, to EMBRACE it; if you don't you're a bigot or hater.
That's what some on this forum gloss over when painting conservatives with a broad brush. True conservatives (not the Moral Majority types) just want the status quo preserved, slighting no one, and JUST BE LEFT ALONE!
The_War_Wagon
06-11-16, 18:02
SA - lute! http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/rude/1/pissed.gif
I said it before and I'll say it again: liberal ideas require forced mass participation. There is no just being left alone. It's not how they work. You and I want to own guns, but we don't want to make anyone else who does not want a gun to buy one. But alas, the opposite isn't true. In order for their fvcked-up agenda to work NO ONE can have guns. You and I may not care if a man wants to suck another man's dick (although we might prefer to skip seeing it!). However, the other side wants us to revel in it, to celebrate it, to EMBRACE it; if you don't you're a bigot or hater.
That's what some on this forum gloss over when painting conservatives with a broad brush. True conservatives (not the Moral Majority types) just want the status quo preserved, slighting no one, and JUST BE LEFT ALONE!
I agree with you."It's not the guy talking the loudest that you got to worry about; it's the quiet humble guy..that's really the dangerous one." Carlos Condit
I think that the back lash of these groups pushing their agenda can do more harm to there cause then good.
Cagemonkey
06-11-16, 18:49
Here the Treasonous POS/Bilderberger, running like a coward through Germany; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNmxbtWWOG0 Just another reason to not like the guy. I knew he was no good, once he claimed Henry Kissinger as a Friend.
daddyusmaximus
06-11-16, 19:36
If Petreasonous gave a damn about the soldiers and Marines that once served under him, he’d be fighting to get them the service they need from a Veterans Administration that seems equal parts incompetent and uncaring.[/I]
^^^^ Well, this right here.
Averageman
06-11-16, 19:53
Petraeus?
People are still willing to give him attention?
If I were him, after all that stunting, I'd be living off my pension drunk erryday with a different dumbass girl on my arm errynight.
Politics would be the last thing on my mind
It's all about the ego, you have to participate in order to convince yourself that you are still relevant.
If you are so heartless that you drag your wife and kids through this mess because you decided to screw another Soldiers wife and now you look like a jerk and so does your family, I have to ask;
"Why not take the honorable way out, either die in combat or write a fitting apology and take yourself out the game?" A nice warm bath, some sedatives and a bottle of wine and a sharp knife.
Instead he decides to involve himself in the National Election (Because that is where this is headed, straight to Hillary and the SCOTUS) and his Wife and Kids will get trotted out and reminded of how unimportant he held them in his heart.
Yeah, WTF, drag Mom and the Kids out one more time. After all, what's being made a cuckold one more time in the World Wide Media going to hurt?
That's some kinda Leadership Baby!
BGC and suicide hotlines are far cheaper than un F'ing the VA.
I applaud them looking at suicides. I wish the NRA would act on this also. Since so many deaths from guns are suicides, if you take those numbers down, it would make a huge dent in the gun 'violence' and start to lay even more evidently that gang violence is the other major driver.
Somebody mentioned something about logic on another thread.
Looking at it from a neutral, dispassionate, point of view, they actually have a pretty sound, purely logical argument. Numerous peer-reviewed studies reveal that fewer guns equal fewer suicides:
- in Austrailia suicides went down, there was an uptick in hanging suicides, but it did not negate the overall decrease
- IIRC another study from Israel disclosed that suicides among Isreali forces dropped 20 or 40 percent after they quite allowing their soldiers to take their weapons home with them on weekends
those are just off the top of my head.
And as I said, they are sound logical arguments to someone who doesn't have an opinion, has no skin in the game, or who is anti-gun.
Back to your point - working on reducing gun related suicides - how do we do that without impinging on individual rights?
Really want to discuss not argue, maybe someone can come up with something - I like my guns.
Moose-Knuckle
06-12-16, 03:42
If it's really about reducing suicides then we need to have an intellectually honest national conversation about banning:
Tall buildings
Bridges / overpasses
Mountains
Cliffs
All manner of lethal cutting instruments including but not limited to knives, razors, sissors, shards of pottery, et al.
Automobiles
Garages
Garden hoses
Rope and other mics. cordage that can support the weight of a human
Controlled substances
Hard surfaces that one can head dive into
Various plants
Mega fauna
Water to include oceans, rivers, lakes, streams, creeks, swimming pools, stock tanks, ponds, bath tubs, hot tubs, et al.
Whole hosts of chemicals
And about a zillion other things that humans who are determined to take their own life may or may not use . . .
platoonDaddy
06-12-16, 04:52
My friend who is a BN CDR and I have been talking about this subject, PC etc. I asked him in his experience are there many staff officers who are progressives.
His reply:
It has been my experience that their are very few. Unfortunately that is changing. My XO is a big liberal and an atheist. I have been experiencing other like him. This for me has not been widespread but was totally unheard of back in the day. Times are changing and I am seeing more and more like him. Also, fine Christian men with strong values, beliefs, and morals have been neutered. They know to tow the line or else. It is sad. I am not PC but very cautious. I am very close to sanctuary so I have too much invested to blow it. I am a dinosaur. I understand change but you have to remember the business we are in. I will encourage my son to avoid military service thereby ending generations of military service in my family.
Sad!
Risible, farcical & Reductio ad absurdum
Simultaneously ARMING, sponsoring, funding, training ISIS / Daesh et al while pushing for gun control in the US via false flags like crazy.
It's a lie, both of those men are of highly dubious character & have cut deals w/ the BORG. it's clearly broken & not going to be fixed. None of those two men are the american people's friends.
No truthful dialogue from them about known & proven False Flags to advance the anti-gun agenda.
Ignorance & indolence of people are they're power.
Notice nothing about SSRI's or "other" highly addictive psychotropic's (i.e. Xanax aka benzodiazapine today over 50 Million americans on the most widely prescribed drug or Ativan et al etc. that also are known to cause agitation or irritation).
Also nothing about psychotronic Weapons known to exist & being used & cause agitation & discernment issues for humans since humans are electro chemical beings & proven sensitive to ELF.
Here's another lie:
Why not just rob Peter to pay Paul?
Tax the few rich… and give the money to the many poor. Remember, it’s a majority rule system! Why won’t that work?
Have you forgotten? The voters don’t really control the system.
Peter does.
Speak truth to power, especially despot's & statist's.
Well, yeah. Islam is the Religion of Peace, but the Founding Fathers and gun owning Americans are racist redneck paranoid wackos.
The former can totally be trusted, the latter are to be feared.
It worries me when someone who is recognized as one of the top counter insurgency minds starts to take up domestic politics.
Good point.
Petraeus?
People are still willing to give him attention?
If I were him, after all that stunting, I'd be living off my pension drunk erryday with a different dumbass girl on my arm errynight.
Politics would be the last thing on my mind
The Left likes pieces of garbage like Petraeus because they point to his "expertise" in declaring ARs, AKs as "weapons of war".
Gee, he's seen the devastation of "assault rifles" first hand, ya know!
I said it before and I'll say it again: liberal ideas require forced mass participation. There is no just being left alone. It's not how they work. You and I want to own guns, but we don't want to make anyone else who does not want a gun to buy one. But alas, the opposite isn't true. In order for their fvcked-up agenda to work NO ONE can have guns. You and I may not care if a man wants to suck another man's dick (although we might prefer to skip seeing it!). However, the other side wants us to revel in it, to celebrate it, to EMBRACE it; if you don't you're a bigot or hater.
That's what some on this forum gloss over when painting conservatives with a broad brush. True conservatives (not the Moral Majority types) just want the status quo preserved, slighting no one, and JUST BE LEFT ALONE!
Very true. I actually was thinking this after listening to an educated idiot (Ph.D. in Genetics of all things) talk about how great it was that countries like China can enforce mass compliance from their people. He was referencing the Beijing Olympics and how the government apparently banned all car travel and shut down factory production for a bit before the start of the games to clean up the air pollution. He sounded excited about the prospect.
I pointed out the whole, you know, freedom thing. He didn't care. These people are in love with authority from a central bureau telling people how to live.
Somebody mentioned something about logic on another thread.
Looking at it from a neutral, dispassionate, point of view, they actually have a pretty sound, purely logical argument. Numerous peer-reviewed studies reveal that fewer guns equal fewer suicides:
- in Austrailia suicides went down, there was an uptick in hanging suicides, but it did not negate the overall decrease
- IIRC another study from Israel disclosed that suicides among Isreali forces dropped 20 or 40 percent after they quite allowing their soldiers to take their weapons home with them on weekends
those are just off the top of my head.
And as I said, they are sound logical arguments to someone who doesn't have an opinion, has no skin in the game, or who is anti-gun.
Back to your point - working on reducing gun related suicides - how do we do that without impinging on individual rights?
Really want to discuss not argue, maybe someone can come up with something - I like my guns.
Japan has very few guns in civilian hands, yet suicide rates are quite high.
Furthermore, if someone chooses to end their life, why stop them. Hey, after all, libtards support the freedom to choose ending someone else's lives (unborn children). Liberal logic ain't logic.
If it's really about reducing suicides then we need to have an intellectually honest national conversation about banning:
Tall buildings
Bridges / overpasses
Mountains
Cliffs
All manner of lethal cutting instruments including but not limited to knives, razors, sissors, shards of pottery, et al.
Automobiles
Garages
Garden hoses
Rope and other mics. cordage that can support the weight of a human
Controlled substances
Hard surfaces that one can head dive into
Various plants
Mega fauna
Water to include oceans, rivers, lakes, streams, creeks, swimming pools, stock tanks, ponds, bath tubs, hot tubs, et al.
Whole hosts of chemicals
And about a zillion other things that humans who are determined to take their own life may or may not use . . .
Yeah I get it, but we were talking specifically about suicides with firearms. Many of those items have something in common with one another - they are more often unsuccessful than suicide attempts with firearms. But, as I said the discussion was about reducing firearms suicides.
Furthermore, if someone chooses to end their life, why stop them.
Well, as for me, I care about people in general. Often the suicide is at a low point from which they could rebound and go forward. If someone is determined, as in not spur of the moment, there really is not any stopping them, they will succeed.
So, in a nutshell, I care about people, and citizenship.
Moose-Knuckle
06-13-16, 02:01
Yeah I get it, but we were talking specifically about suicides with firearms.
And that is the problem. It is used to further stigmatize and demonized firearms by those in the gun control lobby.
Many of those items have something in common with one another - they are more often unsuccessful than suicide attempts with firearms. But, as I said the discussion was about reducing firearms suicides.
I don't have the data but in my personal experience the four active suicides that I have intervened in and averted were two hangings and two cutters.
Averageman
06-13-16, 08:10
And that is the problem. It is used to further stigmatize and demonized firearms by those in the gun control lobby.
I don't have the data but in my personal experience the four active suicides that I have intervened in and averted were two hangings and two cutters.
We recently had a suffocation here. Plastic bag over the head then a 550 cord noose to seal the bottom. That's got to be a tough way to take yourself out.
I don't have the data but in my personal experience the four active suicides that I have intervened in and averted were two hangings and two cutters.
That was kind of my point, with the firearm all too often it's just 'I'm done' and then lights out. The crux of the issue is how do we prevent these type suicides without infringing on the rights of others? Especially in an era where everyone is willing to get butt hurt if a doctor treating you for depression asks if you have firearms. One of the reasons they might ask this is that the firearms suicide can be a little more impulsive than other types.
Two questions I always asked if the batterer had left the scene of a DV was 'are there any weapons in the house?' if there were net question was 'would you feel more comfortable if I booked them in as property so your SO had to be sober to pick them up?' Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I don't apologise in the least for that - at that point the right of the battered wife to be safe trumped those of an asshole who punches women. Alcohol, depression, rage and firearms. or any weapon for that matter, are a deadly mix.
We recently had a suffocation here. Plastic bag over the head then a 550 cord noose to seal the bottom. That's got to be a tough way to take yourself out.
Maybe a thrill seeker that went a little too long before loosening the cord? Maybe wanting to punish themselves and didn't think they deserved a peaceful end?
I saw photos one of a man who had killed himself with a radial arm saw - he had two hesitation cuts before he did the deed. You really have to be clouded in the head to do that to yourself.
brickboy240
06-13-16, 09:57
Ever notice when a "group" forms and their name includes a word like "sensible" or "common sense" or "reasonable" their agenda is ANYTHING but what those words actually mean?
What is up with these higher up military guys,coming out as anti-gun? Wesley Clarke, Mark Kelley, McChrystal and now Patreaus? How can military leaders be all in on gun control? Makes no sense!
crusader377
06-13-16, 11:19
For someone that I used to respect and served under him while at the 101st. It is a shame that Petraeus has forgotten his oath that all service members take while entering the military. Not only he disgraced himself at the CIA and is now running with pro-globalist groups while promoting anti-2A stances.
Here is another gem with Petraeus favoring the U.S. becoming more integrated with Mexico.
http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/north-america/item/18585-after-america-comes-north-america-gen-petraeus-boasts
http://www.cfr.org/americas/north-america/p33536
We had a guy here that rigged up a system in a hotel room and shot himself in the face with a crossbow. People come up with some crazy ideas when they are that far down the hole.
Also, unrelated but I've always found odd, there is a hospital in my squad area that has had multiple suicides happen on the property. Either by jumping off the stairwells/parking garage or by shooting/cutting themselves in the landscaping areas. I can't figure out why it happens there.
What is up with these higher up military guys,coming out as anti-gun? Wesley Clarke, Mark Kelley, McChrystal and now Patreaus? How can military leaders be all in on gun control? Makes no sense!
I think you need to ignore the gun thing and focus on the control part. They are political creatures past a certain grade. If they weren't their careers would end.
Patreus could have been a strict Constitutionalist, but now is nothing more than a compromised asset AFAIC. He stuck his little willy where it don't belong and got himself caught. He is now someone else's tool.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-13-16, 16:31
Somebody mentioned something about logic on another thread.
Looking at it from a neutral, dispassionate, point of view, they actually have a pretty sound, purely logical argument. Numerous peer-reviewed studies reveal that fewer guns equal fewer suicides:
- in Austrailia suicides went down, there was an uptick in hanging suicides, but it did not negate the overall decrease
- IIRC another study from Israel disclosed that suicides among Isreali forces dropped 20 or 40 percent after they quite allowing their soldiers to take their weapons home with them on weekends
those are just off the top of my head.
And as I said, they are sound logical arguments to someone who doesn't have an opinion, has no skin in the game, or who is anti-gun.
Back to your point - working on reducing gun related suicides - how do we do that without impinging on individual rights?
Really want to discuss not argue, maybe someone can come up with something - I like my guns.
The problem with the Australian data on suicides and gun deaths in general is that they look at the gun ban start dates and see a decline and see this as proof. They don't look at the trend before the ban. This article does:
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/425021/australia-gun-control-obama-america
The best way to illustrate this to people would be to take the dates and prompts off and ask people when they think policies took effect . You'd be hard pressed to see the cause and effect in the suicide data. I've also seen similar trends in overall gun deaths from Australia. There was a long running decline in gun deaths before and a similar one after.
I take a dump every morning, that isn't what makes the day get hotter. It was going to happen anyways.
Petraeus?
People are still willing to give him attention?
If I were him, after all that stunting, I'd be living off my pension drunk erryday with a different dumbass girl on my arm errynight.
Politics would be the last thing on my mind
Tarnished stars on a washed up has-been don't pull the same level of quality young (liberal) ass as being the head of a powerful, connected anti-gun organization. This guy's a walking boner for starry-eyed liberal hero worshipers. :mad:
Well, as for me, I care about people in general. Often the suicide is at a low point from which they could rebound and go forward. If someone is determined, as in not spur of the moment, there really is not any stopping them, they will succeed.
So, in a nutshell, I care about people, and citizenship.
Did anyone here say they don't care about people in general?
Caring about people is not really an argument. This is like the Left demonizing gun owners/NRA, etc. by declaring that anyone who disagrees with them doesn't care about children being shot.
Look, I care about people too, but that doesn't mean that I want to make decisions for them. Yes, suicide is terrible, and something should be in place t prevent or dissuade it, but that doesn't mean it should involve violating the 2nd Amendment, as virtually every "attempt" by the Left does.
Might as well lock up everyone who has ever been even slightly depressed or who has a family history of depression/suicide/etc. Hey, it's the caring thing to do.
Maybe a thrill seeker that went a little too long before loosening the cord? Maybe wanting to punish themselves and didn't think they deserved a peaceful end?
I saw photos one of a man who had killed himself with a radial arm saw - he had two hesitation cuts before he did the deed. You really have to be clouded in the head to do that to yourself.
Back when I was a teenager in Cali, my neighbor was a Sheriff Deputy. He had shown me one time pictures of a suicide. Lady had killed herself with a miter saw.
lawusmc0844
06-13-16, 22:29
I have 0 respect for fellow servicemen that support leftist regressive movements. When I went to AFG as part of the advance party to do RIP/TOA with the Btry we were replacing, their FDO was an anti-gun statist and a douche in general. I lost all respect for him when he accused me of "disrespecting" him in front of his Marines just because I went to the head after a practice fire mission. Toolbag...
My SSgt, the Ops Chief was another borderline libtard douche. His holier than thou attitude, lack of professionalism in front of me and junior Marines, and his constantly talking shit about me owning more than one gun while supporting "common sense gun control" (he owns a Taurus LOL), I lost all respect for him as well. At least I always riled him up by constantly shitting on the liar-in-chief to his face lol.
Don't get me started on fellow NCOs that support our "president" and think I'm crazy for practicing my 2nd Amendment rights
Anti-gun leftist ****heads seem to exist at all ranks. But with morons like clark, amos, dempsey, mcchrystal, and now betray-us (I won't refer to them by their rank or capitalize their names, I'm already EAS so what are they going to do, NJP me lol), I have little faith in senior military leadership.
this and others I hear this quite a bit
and some friends that are currently still working with military as private contractor trainer etc.. have said if the military is called to act against civilians they are not as sure it wont happen cause they seem to hate so many people in general so a call to confiscate guns would be OK with them !
I have 0 respect for fellow servicemen that support leftist regressive movements. When I went to AFG as part of the advance party to do RIP/TOA with the Btry we were replacing, their FDO was an anti-gun statist and a douche in general. I lost all respect for him when he accused me of "disrespecting" him in front of his Marines just because I went to the head after a practice fire mission. Toolbag...
My SSgt, the Ops Chief was another borderline libtard douche. His holier than thou attitude, lack of professionalism in front of me and junior Marines, and his constantly talking shit about me owning more than one gun while supporting "common sense gun control" (he owns a Taurus LOL), I lost all respect for him as well. At least I always riled him up by constantly shitting on the liar-in-chief to his face lol.
Don't get me started on fellow NCOs that support our "president" and think I'm crazy for practicing my 2nd Amendment rights
Anti-gun leftist ****heads seem to exist at all ranks. But with morons like clark, amos, dempsey, mcchrystal, and now betray-us (I won't refer to them by their rank or capitalize their names, I'm already EAS so what are they going to do, NJP me lol), I have little faith in senior military leadership.
this and others I hear this quite a bit
and some friends that are currently still working with military as private contractor trainer etc.. have said if the military is called to act against civilians they are not as sure it wont happen cause they seem to hate so many people in general so a call to confiscate guns would be OK with them !
Those are the ones the term "fragging" was invented for! :mad:
lawusmc0844
06-14-16, 01:06
this and others I hear this quite a bit
and some friends that are currently still working with military as private contractor trainer etc.. have said if the military is called to act against civilians they are not as sure it wont happen cause they seem to hate so many people in general so a call to confiscate guns would be OK with them !
Todays weak military, not surprising. Those that would follow such unlawful orders will regret that decision...
At least when I was still in me and most of my peers, the ones I'm actually friends with, take the oath seriously and would never follow such unlawful orders. That includes all of our junior Marines as well, hopefully the ones that are still in remember what we taught them. I had some good SNCOs from my old unit that were gun guys as well and that I could trust my life with.
Outlander Systems
06-14-16, 10:38
quis·ling
ˈkwizliNG/Submit
noun
noun: quisling; plural noun: quislings
a traitor who collaborates with an enemy force occupying their country.
synonyms: collaborator, colluder, sympathizer; traitor, turncoat, backstabber, double-crosser, defector, Judas, snake in the grass, fifth columnist
"the allegations that her ex-husband acted as a quisling were ludicrous"
http://thefederalist.com/2016/05/18/why-david-petraeus-really-wants-you-to-shut-up-about-islamism/
Perhaps the Post should have let their readers judge for themselves if Petraeus’s financial interests in KKR, and KKR’s financial interests in the Middle East, were relevant to his op-ed demanding an end to criticism of Islam. KKR has been trying for the past seven years to enter private equity markets in Muslim-majority countries, especially in Dubai (part of the United Arab Emirates) and Saudi Arabia. During those same years, the governments of Dubai and Saudi Arabia hardened their laws against criticism of Islam at home, and increased their lobbying spending to shut down criticism of Islamic doctrine abroad.
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