View Full Version : Gun & Caliber for 1st Bolt Gun?
I am in the process of picking up a few guns (Sig MCX, CZ Scorpion, Sig SP2022, Sig P320) and suppressors (SilencerCo Hybrid and Osprey 45K) and wanted to add a bolt action rifle to the list. I have 400 acres and would be interested in getting a rifle that would be good for hunting as well as a little bit of long range shooting. I'm not looking for anything extremely high end or super precision. After reading different posts and things online, I'm confused as to which caliber and/or gun would be best for what I want. Below is the list of what I was thinking. Any recommendations would be great, but also explain why. And... would any of the calibers below still work well suppressed with the Hybrid?
Mossberg MVP Patrol .308
Remington 700 SPS .308
Ruger American
Howa Hogue Gameking 6.5 CM
Ruger American Predator in .308. Great with just an aimpoint for woods hunting, throw a Bushnell 10x40 or swfa super sniper on it when you want to stretch it out for some long range fun.
Any reason for the .308 over the 6.5CM or another caliber?
308 win has cheap ish factory ammo.
308 win has an Ease of finding factory match ammo.
If you reload, either one.
Slight edge to hunting/ match bullets for reliading 308 just due to availability
Better bc for 6.5. For similar bullets.
Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
Ready.Fire.Aim
06-12-16, 18:57
I would go with .308 unless shooting over 500 yards.
1. .308 is easy to find ammo. Can buy very cheap plinking ammo at SGAMMO.com. Easy to suppress and also hand load subsonic cartridges. Good for 500 yards on deer, hogs.
Remington has a load called " hog hammer" with 168 grain Barnes triple shock TSX bullet that is very effective.
Your SilencerCo hybrid is rated for this cartridge.
2. 6.5 Creedmore. Very accurate to 800+ yards on deer. Stores with a lot of guns will have ammo but will be a challenge buying at stores like WalMart-- but plentiful online. Not a good choice for loading subsonic.
3. 300 Blackout. Good to 350 yards on hogs and deer. Excellent caliber to load subsonic. Your SilencerCo hybrid is rated for this cartridge.
All are easy to find in new and used rifles. Off the shelf Remington Savage, Ruger bolt action rifles are pretty good.
- Get one with a threaded barrel.
Have fun,
RFA
wilson1911
06-12-16, 19:49
There is no reason to buy a 308 given the fact that a 6.5 creedmoor will out shoot one any day of the week. Either you can live with the dinosaurs or join the modern era. Creed ammo is everywhere and its easy to load for.
Go shoot 100 rounds out of a 308, then shoot 100 rounds out of a bone stock creed....you will sell the 308 first chance you get.
As a first time buyer, I understand your desire to buy a good gun. Either your going to go with the old school caliber, or buy a creed that can shoot a 4 inch group all day long at 700 yard in winds. For the record, I shoot a 6x47, 6.5x47, and a 6.5 creedmoor. As a first time buyer, I recommend you get the creed, then if you want a bit more performance get a 6.5x47. Both are excellent guns, but the creed has box ammo and the 47's are reload only, but on lapua brass. I shoot steel 300-1350 yards with all guns about 5 days a week.
To give you a better idea of how much better they are. In the match we just had last month, the 308's finished last place out of 60 shooters. If your wanting to learn long range its the best option. You already said you have 400 acres. I would be throwing steel up all over the place.
950 yard groups 3'x8' piece of steel.
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc171/jeep4tw/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-05/6C51ABD9-AFC1-4126-BDAC-65FD48D1AEC0.jpg
2 700 yards groups rifle break-in
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc171/jeep4tw/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-05/CFC51E5F-4F77-4637-9FF0-D20BD994902E.jpg
That seems really impressive. My cousin has another 500-600 acres adjacent to mine, so I'm guessing I'd have plenty of room to shoot? Also, is there any point in shooting 6.5 creedmoor suppressed? I'd love not to bother any farmers/neighbors near by.
There is no reason to buy a 308 given the fact that a 6.5 creedmoor will out shoot one any day of the week. Either you can live with the dinosaurs or join the modern era. Creed ammo is everywhere and its easy to load for.
Go shoot 100 rounds out of a 308, then shoot 100 rounds out of a bone stock creed....you will sell the 308 first chance you get.
As a first time buyer, I understand your desire to buy a good gun. Either your going to go with the old school caliber, or buy a creed that can shoot a 4 inch group all day long at 700 yard in winds. For the record, I shoot a 6x47, 6.5x47, and a 6.5 creedmoor. As a first time buyer, I recommend you get the creed, then if you want a bit more performance get a 6.5x47. Both are excellent guns, but the creed has box ammo and the 47's are reload only, but on lapua brass. I shoot steel 300-1350 yards with all guns about 5 days a week.
To give you a better idea of how much better they are. In the match we just had last month, the 308's finished last place out of 60 shooters. If your wanting to learn long range its the best option. You already said you have 400 acres. I would be throwing steel up all over the place.
950 yard groups 3'x8' piece of steel.
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc171/jeep4tw/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-05/6C51ABD9-AFC1-4126-BDAC-65FD48D1AEC0.jpg
2 700 yards groups rifle break-in
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc171/jeep4tw/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-05/CFC51E5F-4F77-4637-9FF0-D20BD994902E.jpg
You know if the Hybrid is rated for 6.5?
As for 300 blackout, I'm about to by a Sig MCX in 5.56 and place a pre-order for the 9in 300 blackout barrel. Seems like it will be a fun gun to shoot and it will be nice to be able to switch back and forth between calibers.
I used Class 3 Machining for my Scorpion re-thread. When I get it back some time this week and if everything turns out well, I wouldn't mind sending another barrel to him to have it threaded. That's if I choose a gun without a threaded barrel.
I would go with .308 unless shooting over 500 yards.
1. .308 is easy to find ammo. Can buy very cheap plinking ammo at SGAMMO.com. Easy to suppress and also hand load subsonic cartridges. Good for 500 yards on deer, hogs.
Remington has a load called " hog hammer" with 168 grain Barnes triple shock TSX bullet that is very effective.
Your SilencerCo hybrid is rated for this cartridge.
2. 6.5 Creedmore. Very accurate to 800+ yards on deer. Stores with a lot of guns will have ammo but will be a challenge buying at stores like WalMart-- but plentiful online. Not a good choice for loading subsonic.
3. 300 Blackout. Good to 350 yards on hogs and deer. Excellent caliber to load subsonic. Your SilencerCo hybrid is rated for this cartridge.
All are easy to find in new and used rifles. Off the shelf Remington Savage, Ruger bolt action rifles are pretty good.
- Get one with a threaded barrel.
Have fun,
RFA
multistage
07-15-16, 22:04
If you're not gonna push past 500, I'm still partial to the 30-06.
Not shiny, just good lines.
I'm stuck trying to choose between .260, 6.5 Creed and 7mm-08
Still can't decide which one to go with.
I bought my first bolt gun as a 308. Were I to do it all over again I'd get the .260 I rebarreled it to. Love the .260!
waveslayer
07-16-16, 10:40
That seems really impressive. My cousin has another 500-600 acres adjacent to mine, so I'm guessing I'd have plenty of room to shoot? Also, is there any point in shooting 6.5 creedmoor suppressed? I'd love not to bother any farmers/neighbors near by.
Just throw a .308 can on it, like the Thunder Beast Ultra 7! Then you won't bug the neighbors. I use one on my 6.5 Creedmoor and love it. Ammo is easy to find or reload. No need to run subs with the right can
My wife thinks I only have 3 guns
wilson1911
07-16-16, 16:44
I'm stuck trying to choose between .260, 6.5 Creed and 7mm-08
Still can't decide which one to go with.
The 7mm-08 is a short range cartridge much like a 308 but with reduced recoil.
The 260 box ammo is pricey !! but you can get lapua brass for it, which makes a better performing load due to brass. Same class/performance as a creed.
The 6.5 creed has excellent box ammo with 140's being choice. Easy to reload for and offers the same performance as a 260. Where the 260 beats the creed is lapua brass, due to longevity of brass life. I have loaded hornady brass 12 times before discarding it. You can get 20-30 out of lapua depending on how hot you are running. Norma and Nosler brass are also available now, which is better than hornady brass. You can also convert 308/243 lapua brass over to the creed, which is quite easy to do. Its decision of a turn/no turn neck brass conversion.
If you want to shoot a 1 inch group at 500 or less, go for the creed or 260, if you want to be able to shoot 8" or less go with the 7-08.
I firmly believe the creed is still the best choice. What are your pro's and con's of each ?
The 7mm-08 is a short range cartridge much like a 308 but with reduced recoil.
The 260 box ammo is pricey !! but you can get lapua brass for it, which makes a better performing load due to brass. Same class/performance as a creed.
The 6.5 creed has excellent box ammo with 140's being choice. Easy to reload for and offers the same performance as a 260. Where the 260 beats the creed is lapua brass, due to longevity of brass life. I have loaded hornady brass 12 times before discarding it. You can get 20-30 out of lapua depending on how hot you are running. Norma and Nosler brass are also available now, which is better than hornady brass. You can also convert 308/243 lapua brass over to the creed, which is quite easy to do. Its decision of a turn/no turn neck brass conversion.
If you want to shoot a 1 inch group at 500 or less, go for the creed or 260, if you want to be able to shoot 8" or less go with the 7-08.
I firmly believe the creed is still the best choice. What are your pro's and con's of each ?
I was looking for something my whole family could shoot (wife and eventually children) so that's why I looked at the 7mm-08 originally. When I started visiting local custom builders they asked why I wasn't considering .260 or 6.5 Creed? I did more research and realized they both would make great choices too. I visited quite a few shops in the area to check on ammo availability and 7mm-08 was by far the most available. I say I'd like to reach out to 800 or more some day but realize that it probably won't happen anytime soon. They are all very capable flat shooting rounds, and some are available in rifles that I was looking at purchasing (Tikka T3x CTR among others) so I just have to continue to do research and decide what to get.
I would go with .308 unless shooting over 500 yards.
I don't understand this. We shoot 175 SMKs in .308 over 1000 yards all the time.
I was looking for something my whole family could shoot (wife and eventually children) so that's why I looked at the 7mm-08 originally
With a can or brake my son and (now ex) wife shot my .308. Kids and wives generally don't stay on any bolt gun long enough to get worn out by recoil.
We had a buddy build a 6.5 variant of some sort. It just never "took". We just target shoot with .308... so everything revolves around the flight of the 175 smk. So throwing in an oddball caliber just makes things confusing for us. With the OP not having any standard bolt gun set... a different (non .308) caliber wouldn't be an issue.
Springfield
07-18-16, 05:54
Maybe I am just weird but I usually think of a hunting rifle and a long range target rifle as two different rifles. Long range rifles sport a heavy barrel/stock, high magnification scope, light trigger, bipod, etc. I like a hunting rifle that is reasonably (1.5 moa) accurate, lightweight, has a moderate magnification scope, and am also partial to a nice wood stock. Sure you can buy a rifle that does both ok but it is very difficult to get one that is great for both.
Perhaps consider buying two rifles, pick which one you want to start with and then add the other one later. I run a modified heavy barrel M700 in .308 for targets and a lightweight Model Seven CDL in .308 for most of my deer hunting. Also consider bullet availability. Purpose made target bullets should be avoided for big game hunting. I have not owned any of the 6 or 6.5mm calibers but own and reload for several 7mm and .308 caliber rifles and am pleased with the large selection of both target and hunting bullets for them.
Good luck in your quest and I'm sure you will find a good one (or two).
waveslayer
07-18-16, 09:46
Maybe I am just weird but I usually think of a hunting rifle and a long range target rifle as two different rifles. Long range rifles sport a heavy barrel/stock, high magnification scope, light trigger, bipod, etc. I like a hunting rifle that is reasonably (1.5 moa) accurate, lightweight, has a moderate magnification scope, and am also partial to a nice wood stock. Sure you can buy a rifle that does both ok but it is very difficult to get one that is great for both.
Perhaps consider buying two rifles, pick which one you want to start with and then add the other one later. I run a modified heavy barrel M700 in .308 for targets and a lightweight Model Seven CDL in .308 for most of my deer hunting. Also consider bullet availability. Purpose made target bullets should be avoided for big game hunting. I have not owned any of the 6 or 6.5mm calibers but own and reload for several 7mm and .308 caliber rifles and am pleased with the large selection of both target and hunting bullets for them.
Good luck in your quest and I'm sure you will find a good one (or two).
If you two for the price of one, buy the GA Precision Extreme Hunter. It uses the 6.5 SAUM which will blow away the .308 and Creedmoor.
That rifle will serve as a hunting rig as well as a long range rifle. If you reload then you will keep your costs down on ammo. Hornady is now making brass for it, I make my own to save $.
The price may seem steep, but you buy once and cry once. It will be the same price as buying a good hunting rifle aND target rifle.
My wife thinks I only have 3 guns
wilson1911
07-18-16, 10:49
Rated21R,
I have tried to convince the op buying a 6.5 would be the best choice. They shoot flat and hold the wind well with mild recoil. I do understand your thoughts on buying in the first time. I had many of these same ones myself. At some point your going to have to take the plunge and buy in. The gun that is right for you may be different than what others shoot, but hey, its your dime bud. I wish you lived closer to me so I could take you to a private range and let you ring steel out to 1251 if you can shoot well enough. Where I live the wind blows every day which makes some shooting days good, and others not so good.
Some of the things I have noticed on shooting with others.
Reading the wind is an art, some guys are very good at it no matter what gun they shoot.
The 308/7-08 (30 cal) guns are completely outclassed by the 6.5's, there are not may 30 cal guns where I live.
Having a gun with mild recoil is a joy to shoot all day at the range.
Being able to tune the rifle and reload well makes a huge difference in accuracy when shooting long.
Shooting box ammo is a plus for someone just getting into long range or as a first rifle.
And last, but not least.....why did I wait so long to hop on the 6.5 wagon ????? I spent 1.5 years trying to decide what I wanted. Soooo many times I was set on getting a 308. As I look back now, it would be my last choice for a long range gun. The exception to this is a gas gun for hogs or something.
If you guys can find someone to let you shoot a caliber you are thinking of buying, it would help your decision process.
The 6.5 creed has excellent box ammo with 140's being choice.
I'm actually pretty interested in the 130gr Berger Hybrid.
wilson1911
07-18-16, 11:26
I'm actually pretty interested in the 130gr Berger Hybrid.
Those shoot just as well as the 140's with a small amount of speed increase. I think they give up .2 mils in wind vs the 140. All the bergers are good bullets as well as the 140 eld's.
What gun are you shooting ? Do you have mag length issues ?
snowdog650
07-18-16, 11:36
I don't understand this. We shoot 175 SMKs in .308 over 1000 yards all the time.
With a can or brake my son and (now ex) wife shot my .308. Kids and wives generally don't stay on any bolt gun long enough to get worn out by recoil.
We had a buddy build a 6.5 variant of some sort. It just never "took". We just target shoot with .308... so everything revolves around the flight of the 175 smk. So throwing in an oddball caliber just makes things confusing for us. With the OP not having any standard bolt gun set... a different (non .308) caliber wouldn't be an issue.
As usual, I agree with Markm. I am intrigued by the 6.5, but will likely stick with my 308 (which I also use 175's at 1000) primarily because of barrel life, component availability, and the satisfaction of routinely outshooting those behind a 6mm, 6.5mm, and/or 7mm. In long distance shooting (which 500m is NOT "long distance"), nothing beats repetition on the firing line ... for that, I will stick with the 308. If I were made of $$, I would get other calibers, but would still probably train with a 308 the most.
This may sound mildly retarded... but I feel like... moving out of the .308 realm into the 6.5 calibers would take away some of the challenge. Almost making it too easy for the target shooter.
Recoil has never bothered me too much with the .308 heavy tactical guns with suppressors. I only shoot 25 rounds on a busy bolt gun day. (I'm not trying to sell the OP on .308. Just thinking out loud here ;) )
tigershilone
07-18-16, 13:44
It uses the 6.5 SAUM which will blow away the .308 and Creedmoor.
Almost went this route, but the short action ultra magnums have a significantly shorter barrel life compared to the creedmore and especially the 308.
My opinion goes with the 6.5 creedmore for recoil, barrel life and performance and $$$ spent over the life of the weapon. Made the mistake of buying a .338 magnum once, put one box of cartridges through it and sold it. If you cant enjoy shooting the gun what is the point?
waveslayer
07-18-16, 14:12
Almost went this route, but the short action ultra magnums have a significantly shorter barrel life compared to the creedmore and especially the 308.
My opinion goes with the 6.5 creedmore for recoil, barrel life and performance and $$$ spent over the life of the weapon. Made the mistake of buying a .338 magnum once, put one box of cartridges through it and sold it. If you cant enjoy shooting the gun what is the point?
Very true on big bore and magnums. The SAUM was designed by Greg from GA to increase the barrel life by reducing the pressure of the Short Action Magnums. We are getting over 3000 rounds before any barrel or throat erosion is throwing the accuracy off.
No doubt the Creedmoor will last longer, but as a all in one gun that will drop any animal in North America, besides a Grizzly, the 6.5 SAUM takes the cake.
My .338 Norma Magnum AI has about 1500 rounds through it, still shoots a nice single hole at 100. It's crazy
My wife thinks I only have 3 guns
Using a light weight hunting rifle, you will enjoy the 6.5CM/.260 or even the 7-08 over a same weight .308. Using a heavy target gun, run the numbers, those calibers above are more efficient, simple hard facts. No confusion, numbers on a chart, app, in your mind. Said this before as well, need to deliver a payload at longer distance, sure need to step up the the big guns, that doesn't mean .308.
has the .308 done the job, sure has, will continue as well. The popularity of the 6.5's is obvious and for good reason and it will expand.
OP, for what you want, pick up a Tikka CTRX in 6.5CM. For a hunter, I'm waiting for them to make the T3X in it. I've also emailed a request to Ruger for a Scout, 18" SS with synthetic stock in it, we'll see.
a good funny
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqgSSAh8Cqs
Rated21R,
I have tried to convince the op buying a 6.5 would be the best choice. They shoot flat and hold the wind well with mild recoil. I do understand your thoughts on buying in the first time. I had many of these same ones myself. At some point your going to have to take the plunge and buy in. The gun that is right for you may be different than what others shoot, but hey, its your dime bud. I wish you lived closer to me so I could take you to a private range and let you ring steel out to 1251 if you can shoot well enough. Where I live the wind blows every day which makes some shooting days good, and others not so good.
Some of the things I have noticed on shooting with others.
Reading the wind is an art, some guys are very good at it no matter what gun they shoot.
The 308/7-08 (30 cal) guns are completely outclassed by the 6.5's, there are not may 30 cal guns where I live.
Having a gun with mild recoil is a joy to shoot all day at the range.
Being able to tune the rifle and reload well makes a huge difference in accuracy when shooting long.
Shooting box ammo is a plus for someone just getting into long range or as a first rifle.
And last, but not least.....why did I wait so long to hop on the 6.5 wagon ????? I spent 1.5 years trying to decide what I wanted. Soooo many times I was set on getting a 308. As I look back now, it would be my last choice for a long range gun. The exception to this is a gas gun for hogs or something.
If you guys can find someone to let you shoot a caliber you are thinking of buying, it would help your decision process.
You've just about convinced me on the 6.5C, but now I need to decide on a gun. For some reason I keep going back to the Howa. It seems like a good gun for the price. I'm also guessing the scope that comes in the package is pretty undesirable, but will probably work for me since I'm just getting started. Also, can you speak to the use of a suppressor on 6.5C?
wilson1911
07-23-16, 15:15
Shooting with a can rocks !! I have the Dead Air Ti 30 cal can.
I can't speak on which gun to buy. All mine are customs.
You should always buy the best glass you can afford. Tracking is very important when going long.
I would also try to get a gun that has a 24 inch barrel, 26 is preferred.
Hopefully I'll have my SilencerCo Hybrid by Christmas, so I'm looking forward to seeing how it does with the 6.5C.
The Howa comes in a 22in and 24in and I'll need to get the barrel threaded. I'll be using an ASR mount with the Hybrid, so I'm guessing the ASR muzzle brake is preferred over the ASR flash hider for 6.5C?
waveslayer
07-23-16, 15:45
I will tell you that the TBAC ultra is hard to beat because how light it is. My old 30p1 is so nice and quite on my right. I never had a POI because of the weight added with the can. Just thread and shoot. It's so quite
My wife thinks I only have 3 guns
waveslayer
07-23-16, 15:50
Hopefully I'll have my SilencerCo Hybrid by Christmas, so I'm looking forward to seeing how it does with the 6.5C.
The Howa comes in a 22in and 24in and I'll need to get the barrel threaded. I'll be using an ASR mount with the Hybrid, so I'm guessing the ASR muzzle brake is preferred over the ASR flash hider for 6.5C?
I would go break if you want reduced recoil with the can off. Nice can you picked, I ordered a few of those to mess around with.
My wife thinks I only have 3 guns
I realize this is a tad off your OP, but my thoughts regarding .308: If you're getting a bolt gun, might as well go in the 6.5 range or move up to the magnum calibers. There are so many good .308 semi-autos on the market now, that I don't see the point in bothering to get a bolt gun in the same. The marginal increase in long range performance isn't enough to justify it, MHO.
Almost went this route, but the short action ultra magnums have a significantly shorter barrel life compared to the creedmore and especially the 308.
My opinion goes with the 6.5 creedmore for recoil, barrel life and performance and $$$ spent over the life of the weapon. Made the mistake of buying a .338 magnum once, put one box of cartridges through it and sold it. If you cant enjoy shooting the gun what is the point?
What kind of barrel life are we looking it with the 6.5 creedmoor vs the .308?
waveslayer
07-26-16, 18:18
What kind of barrel life are we looking it with the 6.5 creedmoor vs the .308?
It's about the same, it all depends on barrel quality, loads and how you clean it.
My wife thinks I only have 3 guns
wilson1911
07-26-16, 20:23
The 6.5 creedmoor is between 2500-3200 max round count. It depends on barrel maker and how hot your loads are. I would think a factory guns barrel would be shorter than over a bartlien or kreiger or brux.
waveslayer
07-26-16, 20:29
What kind of barrel life are we looking it with the 6.5 creedmoor vs the .308?
It all depends really on pressure and heat
My wife thinks I only have 3 guns
tigershilone
07-26-16, 23:38
What kind of barrel life are we looking it with the 6.5 creedmoor vs the .308?
Experience with .243 was 1100 +/- 100 rounds before it went south, would no longer group under 5" at 100yds.
Two .308 bolts, one with 2000+ round count and one at 5000+ still shooting consistently over the past 25+ years, they just have not worn out yet. Early 90's remy PSS's. They eat everything from FGMM, reloads, to surplus ball without hiccup. To be fair, I've never shot any steel case or corrosive through either rifle.
No hands on with 6.5 creedmoor yet. Everything I've been able to find so far is pointing to mid 2000's for barrel expectancy. The creedmoor is looking to be the best for me as I don't want to reload (if you reload the .260 is almost identical to the creed's perfromance/recoil) and the ballistics are very impressive.
I'm on the fence weather or not to jump in now with a Ruger RPR or wait for the dream offering from Tikka with a T3x with a 22" or longer barrel in 6.5 creedmoor.
Picked up a Tikka T3x CTR 6.5 Creedmoor from a member selling his "impulse buy" couldn't turn it down. Can't wait for it to get here so I can start breaking it in.
skimbleshanks
09-21-16, 23:58
I would look at where you live and would be hunted. 6.5CM might be totally adequate. then again if you live in a place with bears or elk or moose i would say look for something a bit bigger. If you are looking at the 308 i would strongly suggest looking at the 30-06. It isn't sexy but it flat out works for the lower 48. It also sounds like you have the tactical stuff covered so a rifle with a reasonable scope in a hunting cartridge could fill a gap in your safe. Looking at history most military sniping weapons for a long time were simply hunting technology. So the ability to take a hunting rifle, especially a modern one to 400-500 yards is solidly doable.
sandsunsurf
10-01-16, 08:48
I'm on the fence weather or not to jump in now with a Ruger RPR or wait for the dream offering from Tikka with a T3x with a 22" or longer barrel in 6.5 creedmoor.
Why such long barrels? Especially if it's a dual purpose or hunting rig? I'm about to have a gunsmith build me a nice 6.5CM and I was wobbling between 16.5" and 18". This is after reading an article showing a not too drastic velocity loss, and I figure I won't be shooting beyond 500m. Am I on the right track? I like short barrels because 1) I almost always run a can, and will put my Sandman Ti on this one and 2) it makes it lighter and easier to handle overall.
wilson1911
10-01-16, 13:34
I am running a 22" barrel on my guns now. I have the sandman ti as you do. I would not go any shorter tho. I spend more time shooting steel than hunting. You should still be able to get 2650 or so out of a shorter barrel, although I would still not go below 20. Most guys with 6.5 class guns shoot steel/targets/hunt with them in that order. My creed running lapua brass would get 2880 with 140's on a 26" barrel. Creeds like longer barrels.
Look at it this way..... if you start with a 22 you can always chop it off.....starting with a 16 or 18 and you will have to rebarrel if you do not like it.
My gun now feels like normal with the can on.
Well, several months later and I still haven't bought my first bolt gun, but I have decided on getting something in 6.5CM. Now determining which manufacturer and barrel length is the hard part. So I've read a little and have been thinking about two different routes to take and hope everyone will give me their opinions and reasons to support their opinions. Excuse any gun/caliber ignorance in this post; I'm trying to learn.
Option 1 - cheap, compact, and used mostly for hunting
Howa 6.5CM MultiCam 22" standard barrel or 24" heavy barrel cut to 18" and threaded for an ASR muzzle brake for my SiCo Hybrid
- I figured this would be fine to hunt with within 100-200 yards and target out to 400. Am I way off base here?
- I'll be able to use ammo boost 5 or 10 round magazine, which would be handy I suppose.
- Which barrel profile would you chose and why? And are there any problems to be expected with cutting the barrel that short?
Option 2 - expensive, light, fairly compact, used for long range and hunting purposes
Q "The Fix" 6.5CM 20" barrel and thread it for the ASR muzzle break
- Not available yet and is a hell of a lot more expensive than the Howa.
- Appears to be lighter than the Howa, but am concerned about being first to try out new design/concept, especially when it is so expensive.
- Ability to use PMAG magazines
I’d go with the Howa—aside from a few working prototypes, the Fix doesn’t actually exist yet, and it could take them years to iron out a completely new action system.
The 6.5 Creedmoor is a good choice for deer-sized game well beyond 200 yards, but I’m not yet convinced that it’s a better choice for a first bolt gun than the 308. At the ranges you list, the difference between them are minimal at best, and trajectory-compensating scopes (like the Leupold CDS) largely erase what differences do exist.
The 308 also has a much lower total cost of ownership. To get good at long-range shooting, you need to shoot a lot, and good 308 ammo is cheaper than comparable 6.5 Creed ammo. Then there’s the issue of logistics: if you travel to hunt, then you’ll soon realize that airlines manage to “lose” bags belonging to hunters a lot more often than they lose other people’s bags, so the ability to buy good 308 ammo in far more places than good 6.5 Creed ammo is a BIG deal.
Okie John
Makes sense about them (Q) taking time to get a new action system ironed out.
I've thought about getting a .308, but when I was looking at ammo prices, it seemed pretty comparable to 6.5CM ammo. Maybe I've been looking in the wrong places. Also, considering recoil and it's impact on shooting, I figured the 6.5CM might be better to learn on. What are you're thoughts about recoil with a suppressor and how sound suppression varies between the two? The SiCo Hybrid will be the suppressor used on the gun.
Won't need to travel (fly) to hunt either; I'll either be hunting on the land I own in Middle TN or hunting on friends' land in MS.
Okie, I meant to ask what you thought about barrel length for .308 and 6.5CM. I want the rifle to be as light as compact as I can get it without having a negative impact on shooting.
Makes sense about them (Q) taking time to get a new action system ironed out.
I've thought about getting a .308, but when I was looking at ammo prices, it seemed pretty comparable to 6.5CM ammo. Maybe I've been looking in the wrong places. Also, considering recoil and it's impact on shooting, I figured the 6.5CM might be better to learn on. What are you're thoughts about recoil with a suppressor and how sound suppression varies between the two? The SiCo Hybrid will be the suppressor used on the gun.
Won't need to travel (fly) to hunt either; I'll either be hunting on the land I own in Middle TN or hunting on friends' land in MS.
Check ammoseek.com for ammo prices. The cheapest 6.5 Creed is $0.89/shot for decent softpoint hunting ammo. 6.5 Creed match ammo is more like $1.01 per shot for a 1,000-round case. Hirtenberger surplus 308 is just under $0.50/shot, while the cheapest 308 I see that’s not complete junk is $0.70/shot. 308 match ammo is more like $0.80/shot.
The cheapest Howa I could find (gunwatcher.com) in 6.5 Creed was right at $500, and the cheapest Howa in 308 was just over $400, so that’s another $100 in favor of the 308.
Here's how that works out over the long run: looking just at match ammo, the difference between 308 and 6.5 Creed is $200 per 1k rounds, which means that 2,500 rounds of 6.5 Creed ammo costs the same as 2,500 rounds of 308 ammo AND the rifle. In other words, if you choose a 308 over a 6.5 Creed and shoot 2,500 rounds through it (which is just about enough to get good at long range) then the rifle is free. The percentages are about the same for non-match ammo.
I have no idea about noise suppression or recoil with a suppressor.
Okie John
Okie, I meant to ask what you thought about barrel length for .308 and 6.5CM. I want the rifle to be as light as compact as I can get it without having a negative impact on shooting.
I'm a big fan of bolt guns with 22" barrels. Shorter barrels are fashionable these days, but I find the additional muzzle blast is a drag. As for weight, I like a rifle that's no more than 8 pounds ready to hunt, so that 8 pounds has to include your sling, scope, rings, bases, and a full magazine of ammo. I'd go to 7 pounds in a 308 or 6.5, but anything lighter than that gets harder to hit with faster than it gets easier to carry. Some folks think that's too heavy, but I disagree. I'm 55 years old and the day that humping an 8-pound rifle chasing deer or elk kicks my ass is the day I need to be in the gym instead of in the woods.
Okie John
sandsunsurf
02-04-17, 22:04
If you're going to shoot suppressed, go with a short barrel. I'm about to pull the trigger on either a Howa or Bergara in 6.5CM, and either way, I'll cut the barrel to 16.5" and have it threaded for a can. The 6.5 will have less recoil than the .308. Although muzzle blast does increase with a shorter barrel, that becomes a non issue if you are shooting suppressed and the shorter overall length will be an easier rifle to carry and shoot. There are a couple of articles on barrel length with 6.5cm and 17" or 16" (depending on load) are where the velocity loss per inch is still low.
1859sharps
02-05-17, 00:12
couple of thoughts.
Americans are still suspicious of the 6.5 when it comes to hunting, so I would do some reading on what size game is being taken in the EU with it using 6.5 rounds comparable with the 6.5 creedmore. They have been hunting with 6.5s for a very long time over there.
308 and recoil. felt recoil is largely subjective. The amount of discomfort you feel from recoil has a lot to do with did you mount the rifle correctly. mount a rifle correctly, felt recoil is not unpleasant. learned this shooting steyr scouts.
do you know anyone who owns a comparable rifle to what you are leaning towards? if so, schedule a trip to the range and shoot it. shoot from the bench, prone, sitting, and as many other field positions that you can.
6.5 is all the rage right now, and there is no denying it offers some advantages over 308...but do those advantages really matter when shooting under 600 yards. for what it worth I personally do not think so.
If you are going to use this rifle for hunting and informal target shooting at ranges of 1000 yards or less, I would encourage going with a 308. There are a lot more hunting bullet options out there and a good scope with a 20 moa mount will help more than compensate for 308's drop at 1000 or less.
If you are looking to do any kind of formal competition, you will need to give thought to two rifles. one to hunt with, one to shoot competitions with. the two activities have different needs, what makes a good hunting rifle doesn't make a good competition rifle or vis versa.
Your original post stated this was mostly for hunting with some longer range practice. Based on that, I would absolutely go with a .308 for my first rifle and especially for a mostly hunting setup. .308s are best with barrel lengths of 20-22". What 6.5 CM has going for it over other 6.5s is factory loaded ammo. It is designed for PRS shooters going after paper and steel in competition. It uses long bullets with high sectional density/better ballistic coefficient so stays supersonic to longer distances. Since it shoots "flatter" it is more tolerant of range estimation errors. It works in short actions and recoil is fairly light, making spotting your own hits/misses easier - again a plus for competition. Yes, many Europeans use 6.5mm cartridges, but their game is fairly thin skinned and smaller calibers are acceptable. Most recommend 24" min for 6.5 CM and most competition shooters are going with 26". That will be a pain in the ass with a suppressor. If you think you will use the Suppressor a lot, I would recommend one of the factory setups with a 20" threaded barrel. The Ruger American is a decent low budget rifle to have fun with for a while. For upgradable systems, look at the Tikka T3s or go with a good old Remington 700. Many aftermarket options for going to a detachable magazine system or upgrading the stock. Also many more smiths familiar with the system if you decide to accurize or change calibers down the road. Good luck with your choice.
So it looks like I'm going with a Howa and regardless of caliber, I'm wanting to add an Atlas bipod, but there is only one swivel stud instead of a pic rail which is needed for the Atlas. Any suggestions on a workaround for this or a gunsmith that could install one?
wilson1911
02-06-17, 20:03
I would find someone with a 6.5 and ask them if you can shoot it. There is nothing a 308 can do better than a 6.5, no matter if you choose the 260, 6.5 creedmoor, or the 6.5x47L. Barrel life is the only thing it has on it.
You can be the fat chick at the prom....or the slender built hottie.
1859sharps
02-06-17, 23:22
I shoot 308 and for what I am doing...6.5 has nothing to offer me expect having to spend more money I don't need to.
Hbrogers....
IF you are really curious about the 6.5 buy it...try it out. have fun. But if you are simply thinking you should consider it because it's the new "wiz bang" round everyone is talking about...Frankly for what you have indicated you will be doing...you lose NOTHING going with the 308.
+ for 308
ammo cheaper, more available
Barrel life last longs
resale value on a howa will be better with a 308 vs 6.5. people serious about 6.5 and competitions aren't buying howa. Odds of selling to someone just wanting to hunt are better.
if you reload or get into reloading, a very wide selection of bullets
lots of reloading data out there
hasn't stopped performing just fine at distances now that the 6.5 is the "talk of the town".
- for 308
has more drop at distances over 600 than the 6.5
Well, sometimes it takes me a while to make a decision on a new gun and I still haven't made my decision on what to get for my first bolt gun. I have decided on going with the 6.5 CM so that is some progress I guess. In regard to brand, I'm more open now as I've decided that I don't want to fool with having a barrel threaded (that rules out the Howa I was looking at). I'm considering the following:
Remington 700 Magpul Enhanced
Tikka T3X CTR
Savage 10 FCP-SR
Bergara B-14 HMR
What do the wise forums members think? Again, I'm looking for a lightish hunting and something to help me get into long-range shooting. For some reason I'm drawn to the Rem700 Magpul Enhanced, but I keep reading and hearing strong opinions on the gun; some love them and some truly hate them and think they're a waste of money. Handled the Rem and Bergara today and the Bergara seemed like it should be used primary as a bench gun. Am I wrong it that assessment? Any input would be appreciated.
And I think I have decided on the Trijicon Accupower 3-9x40, but wanted to see what people thought about it being paired with one the rifles mentioned above. Also, what reticle if I were to go with the Trijicon? MOA reticle?
My thoughts;
Of your rifle choices it would be the Tikka, or Bergara in that order.
Their out of box accuracy and build quality are gonna be hard to beat.
For optics I think you’ll regret a 3-9X.
The 6.5 is a long range cartridge, as are the rifles I mentioned-which you spec’d.
Something in the 3-15/5-20 something will be better at exploiting the 6.5’s and rifles capability.
MOA or Mil are personal preference. Whatever you get, make certain you have Mil reticle/Mil clicks or MOA reticle/MOA clicks.
My preference is Mil/Mil.
I purchased a Bergara HMR in 6.5 a couple days ago so that would be my recommendation. I strongly considered the Tikka CTR. I handled them both. I thought the Tikka action was slightly smoother but the HMR was not far behind and it has a better stock. Mags should be less expensive also.
Personally I wouldn't consider a Rem 700 if a comparable offering was available from Tikka or Bergara.
I purchased a Bergara HMR in 6.5 a couple days ago so that would be my recommendation. I strongly considered the Tikka CTR. I handled them both. I thought the Tikka action was slightly smoother but the HMR was not far behind and it has a better stock. Mags should be less expensive also.
Personally I wouldn't consider a Rem 700 if a comparable offering was available from Tikka or Bergara.
What about the Rem 700 made you rule it out?
My thoughts;
Of your rifle choices it would be the Tikka, or Bergara in that order.
Their out of box accuracy and build quality are gonna be hard to beat.
For optics I think you’ll regret a 3-9X.
The 6.5 is a long range cartridge, as are the rifles I mentioned-which you spec’d.
Something in the 3-15/5-20 something will be better at exploiting the 6.5’s and rifles capability.
MOA or Mil are personal preference. Whatever you get, make certain you have Mil reticle/Mil clicks or MOA reticle/MOA clicks.
My preference is Mil/Mil.
I appreciate the input.
Re. your 700 question-
The "out of box" accuracy and/or build quality are not comparable to either the Bergara or Tikka.
I read about the Rem 700s not being good all the time. But we've only come across one bad barrel in 300 wm. A guy at the range told us that if you see the digital markings under the bolt knob on the receiver, the gun was cnc'd on one machine... as opposed to earlier guns that moved from station to station. The latter being where a lot of problematic machining was done.
One other gun I came across was the Ruger American Predator. How does it stack up to the others I mentioned considering the price? It's a hell of a lot cheaper which would leave more money for a better scope, and since this will be used for range use and hunting, would it be acceptable; I'm not trying to get into serious precision shooting.
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