View Full Version : What, exactly, is an AR-15?
Say you were tasked with writing the definition of an AR-15.
What would it be?
A modern M4A1, for example, would unquestionably belong to the AR-15 family. But there are few, if any parts that are exactly the same as the original M16 or the original AR-15.
Is a SR-15 Mod2 an AR? It has no barrel nut, the chamber/bolt is significantly different, and it has a different gas block than anything else.
Is a HK 416/MR556 an AR? It isn't even "DI", it can be put on safe with the hammer down, and it has a unique upper receiver.
Is a Sig MCX an AR? I heard the MCX upper works on an AR (thus, M16) lower.
Is a Bushmaster/Magpul ACR an AR? It uses the same trigger group (with slight modification, iirc).
I'm leaning towards a definition based on if the weapon can be split into upper and lower receiver groups such that the upper receiver group is compatible with a standard AR-15 lower receiver and the lower receiver group is compatible with a standard AR-15 upper receiver. By standard AR-15 I mean a Colt 6920 or something similar with a full auto BCG. This is all disregarding the receiver extension.
Failure2Stop
06-14-16, 14:55
I don't think that anything you have listed other than the M4A1 is "in the AR family", as they all have some feature that takes them out of being inside the original design framework of the ArmaLite Rifle.
I believe that the closest would be the SR, but even then, given the amount of non-interchangeable/proprietary/improved parts it is at best a close cousin.
How would you define an F150?
It's a specific model line, not an overall concept.
I don't think that anything you have listed other than the M4A1 is "in the AR family", as they all have some feature that takes them out of being inside the original design framework of the ArmaLite Rifle.
I believe that the closest would be the SR, but even then, given the amount of non-interchangeable/proprietary/improved parts it is at best a close cousin.
How would you define an F150?
It's a specific model line, not an overall concept.
But if you have a lot of part compatibility with a F150, do you count?
Does a BCM AR with a KMR not count as an AR-15, as it doesn't have a barrel nut, doesn't have a FSB, doesn't have the same gas tube length, and probably has a different buffer weight?
How many parts can you swap out and remain an "AR-15"? Does it matter which specific parts you swap out?
Is a Colt variant from back in the day when they used different sized pins and a semi-auto BCG an AR-15?
The part you are missing (or maybe I am missing it) is that the AR-15 is the family root. It is where many of those listed developed from. The others are offspring.
The part you are missing (or maybe I am missing it) is that the AR-15 is the family root. It is where many of those listed developed from. The others are offspring.
So they'd all be part of the AR-15 family? Or have some fallen too far from the proverbial family tree such that they have been disowned?
Interesting....
The Wright Brothers plane, an F-105, an F-16, and an F-22 all were made in America, all fly, but are generationally different.
But without Orville and Wilbur, we wouldn't have the F-22.
I prefer AR derivative.
Just me, just my simple thought.
Easier to say than self loading rifle.
It's a lower receiver group built to a standard that can take any of a number of different types of uppers. My feeling is if you can take two very different rifles, say a Colt and an HK and swap uppers and still have two functional rifles they are both part of the AR-15 family, doesn't matter if every part is interchangeable.
A business acquaintance invited me up to his family property to help him sight in his new AR. His new AR turned out to be a 10/22 in a Chicom plastic chassis. My BCM ELW upper on a Mega ambi lower didn't impress him at all. His was just as black, not as loud, a lot cheaper to shoot but was still an AR in his opinion. Just goes to show how even a JV league gun guy can fall for the cool-aid.
556BlackRifle
06-14-16, 20:18
A business acquaintance invited me up to his family property to help him sight in his new AR. His new AR turned out to be a 10/22 in a Chicom plastic chassis. My BCM ELW upper on a Mega ambi lower didn't impress him at all. His was just as black, not as loud, a lot cheaper to shoot but was still an AR in his opinion. Just goes to show how even a JV league gun guy can fall for the cool-aid.
Glad I wasn't eating or drinking while I read that! :)
crosseyedshooter
06-14-16, 20:41
A business acquaintance invited me up to his family property to help him sight in his new AR. His new AR turned out to be a 10/22 in a Chicom plastic chassis. My BCM ELW upper on a Mega ambi lower didn't impress him at all. His was just as black, not as loud, a lot cheaper to shoot but was still an AR in his opinion. Just goes to show how even a JV league gun guy can fall for the cool-aid.
I'll just leave this here:
http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2016/06/13/assault-rifle-history-orig-ff.cnn
Microadventure
06-14-16, 21:00
An AR-15 is TWGHPIAK: That Which Gets Hillarys Panties in a Knot
no, wait...
An AR-15 is TWGHJSIAK - That Which Gets Hillarys Jockey Shorts in a Knot
yeah, that's it.
I would say AR15 based, as in all are derivatives of the original design model.
If it functions like an ar15, it's an ar 15 or clone. Kac I would call a Clone as well as the operation is the same, just tweaked. Start adding Pistons and such, and it's derived from, but not an ar.
I like the truck reference here. Ford, Dodge, Chevy all make trucks. They're all a little different but they have many commonalities that accomplish the same task. They don't need to share 100% part compatibility to be considered trucks but they do have some defining characteristics that make them trucks. Same with the AR family of firearms. Some basic commonalities that allow it to accomplish the same basic task.
AR stands for Armalite rifle. So...that's what it is.
Same goes for Kalashnikovs and Winchester rifles.
AR stands for Armalite rifle. So...that's what it is.
Same goes for Kalashnikovs and Winchester rifles.
Except that the license and name were purchased and are owned by Colt.
I say there is no such thing as an AR-15. Each is its own thing. Want to ban AR-15's? Don't even know what that is, see?
Renegade04
06-15-16, 15:38
The AR-15 is a military and civilian rifle that has been produced in many different versions. The term AR-15 was chosen by Colt for the civilian models it produced after selling the rifle to the U.S. military as the M16 rifle, and many people and references use the term AR-15 exclusively for civilian models. AR-15 rifles are lightweight, gas-operated, magazine-fed, air-cooled, fire an intermediate cartridge, and are manufactured with extensive use of aluminum alloys and synthetic materials.
For more, go here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15
Except that the license and name were purchased and are owned by Colt.
And Serbia makes Kalashnikovs. Still a Kalashnikov. Still an armalite rifle. No matter who owns the name or who makes it.
Even mozzarella cheese falls into this logic..:)
I like the truck reference here. Ford, Dodge, Chevy all make trucks. They're all a little different but they have many commonalities that accomplish the same task. They don't need to share 100% part compatibility to be considered trucks but they do have some defining characteristics that make them trucks. Same with the AR family of firearms. Some basic commonalities that allow it to accomplish the same basic task.
So what are the defining characteristics of an AR-15?
At what point when modifying a Colt 6920 does it stop being an AR-15?
Failure2Stop
06-15-16, 16:26
They all are, but only one of them truly is, and even Colt seems to admit this with their model numbers.
There is no right answer on this. Better luck on nailing down "Assault Weapon".
Failure2Stop
06-15-16, 16:29
So what are the defining characteristics of an AR-15?
At what point when modifying a Colt 6920 does it stop being an AR-15?
If it doesn't say Colt AR-15 on the side, or be exactly the same otherwise, then it isn't an "AR-15".
Might be in the family, or similar to, but it isn't that name.
I usually refer to the genre as AR-type, AR-derivative, AR-family, or AR-compatible.
If it doesn't say Colt AR-15 on the side, or be exactly the same otherwise, then it isn't an "AR-15".
Might be in the family, or similar to, but it isn't that name.
I usually refer to the genre as AR-type, AR-derivative, AR-family, or AR-compatible.
Be careful how you phrase things. The Left has been known to use quotes out of context when it comes to making laws and justifying it with "derivative", "variants" nonsense.
This should all be moot, due to the 2A and natural rights, but just saying.
Jack nailed it. "AR-15" is a model. It is a very specific gun and marked as such. It is even named in various pieces of legislation along with other specific clone models. This is why no one names or marks their "ARs" as "AR-15." The term has become used in common place to describe a type of gun, just as Kleenex which is trademarked product name is used to describe anything similar.
Pushbutton2
06-15-16, 20:32
Forgot to add that there are two styles.
Armalite and DPMS.
That made me think this thought... Is mil spec mil spec? I.e. Armalite mil spec bolt fit a DPMS upper?
It's like asking if someone replaced you one atom at a time, at what point do you become another person/lose your identity/etc.
Questions with no answers.
bloodlord77
06-15-16, 21:34
An AR-15 is a weapon of mass destruction designed to kill as many people as possible as quickly as possible. It is designed to fire 900 rounds per minute on semi auto. Thats what I heard on the news anyway...:-D
An AR is like porno. I can't quite define what it is, but I know it when I see it
If it doesn't say Colt AR-15 on the side, or be exactly the same otherwise, then it isn't an "AR-15".
Might be in the family, or similar to, but it isn't that name.
I usually refer to the genre as AR-type, AR-derivative, AR-family, or AR-compatible.
My Colt 6920 has "M4 Carbine" stamped on the side, so I guess it's not an AR-15?
Renegade0100
06-16-16, 11:23
I've always thought of an AR-15 as a weapon platform, of which many different rifle forms branch from, not as one model specifically.
Failure2Stop
06-16-16, 12:46
My Colt 6920 has "M4 Carbine" stamped on the side, so I guess it's not an AR-15?
My friend Bill has "William" on his birth certificate. Is he a "Bill" or a "William"?
He changes his name to "The Guy Formerly Known as Bill", is he still William?
Is his name even a factor in what makes him "Bill"?
I guess we are all bored.
RedLightning
06-16-16, 13:38
Forgot to add that there are two styles.
Armalite and DPMS.
What?
I've always thought of an AR-15 as a weapon platform, of which many different rifle forms branch from, not as one model specifically.
The AR is the weapon. The shooter is the weapon platform. But yes, AR-15 encompasses a whole family of weapons (FOW)
Renegade04
06-16-16, 15:38
I've always thought of an AR-15 as a weapon platform, of which many different rifle forms branch from, not as one model specifically.
Even though AR-15 was a model designation by Armalite and carried over by Colt, these days, it is pretty much a generic name for the platform. Kind of like AR-10 being the generic designation for the .308 AR platform. The AR-15 platform does encompass several different models and calibers.
Eurodriver
06-16-16, 15:39
LMGAS
CleverNickname
06-16-16, 17:51
This thread is transphobic; who are you to define what an AR15 is? Just because a rifle looks like a single-shot .22LR doesn't mean it can't be an AR15, if that's what it thinks it is.
The term AR-15, is a transgressive white patriarchal label put on mechanical objects to try to make them conform to societal norms. The progressive thing to do is realize that mechanical objects are whatever they or their owners, feel them to be.
My mechanical objects that happen to fire bullets self-identify as computer parts, so whatevs.
I guess we are all bored.
True:)
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Outlander Systems
06-16-16, 18:54
Ugh...
"There are many like it, but this one is mine. The [AR-15] Rifle is a air-cooled, gas-operated, shoulder fired..."
LMGAS
Pushbutton2
06-16-16, 18:57
It's like ford vs gm vs ram
Definition of an AR15.... Ok, why not. I'll take a crack at it. After all I am bored right now. :smile:
AR15: noun, A firearm that is, with the exception of the original full automatic rifle, a semi automatic pistol or shoulder fired long arm of which the core design concept is based in the 5.56mm rifle originally conceived by Eugene Stoner in the mid 20th century.
Achem... Sorry, my geek is showing. Let me just take care of that....
Definition of an AR15.... Ok, why not. I'll take a crack at it. After all I am bored right now. [emoji2]
AR15: noun, A firearm that is, with the exception of the original full automatic rifle, a semi automatic pistol or shoulder fired long arm of which the core design concept is based in the 5.56mm rifle originally conceived by Eugene Stoner in the mid 20th century.
Achem... Sorry, my geek is showing. Let me just take care of that....
For the win.
Add loosely follows the original m16/ar 15 spec prints
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An AR is like porno. I can't quite define what it is, but I know it when I see it
I was going to write that in the OP when I was making this thread, but I didn't want to kill discussion immediately lol
I was going to write that in the OP when I was making this thread, but I didn't want to kill discussion immediately lol
Its a sad truth.
Until you jerk the trigger.
Than its a happy truth
[emoji1] [emoji1] [emoji1]
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ive come to the conclusion that it is an impossible question to answer. Normally I'd just say anything that goes on an AR15 lower is still an ar15. Lowers can be changed for exterior looks or function, ambi controls, etc but the holes for takedown and pivot pins, trigger, buffer tube etc are all set. But I definitely wouldn't call the ares belt fed upper an ar15.
So what are the defining characteristics of an AR-15?
At what point when modifying a Colt 6920 does it stop being an AR-15?
When you change the FCG, and maybe the bolt carrier and it becomes an M-16.
Further, I would argue that a proper "Assault Rifle" needs an M-240 or a Master Key to fill the definition of a rifle used by a real Assaulter.
A business acquaintance invited me up to his family property to help him sight in his new AR. His new AR turned out to be a 10/22 in a Chicom plastic chassis. My BCM ELW upper on a Mega ambi lower didn't impress him at all. His was just as black, not as loud, a lot cheaper to shoot but was still an AR in his opinion. Just goes to show how even a JV league gun guy can fall for the cool-aid.
I'm not trying to derail, but your story is also a great example of exactly why the AR gets such a bad name amongst the general public. They can't get past the cosmetics.
I actually had a guy at work say to me, that he didn't care if they "banned ARs", because nobody really needs one. He then said a ruger mini would cover what any civvie could possibly require.
Of course, he's a mini 14 owner. I didn't care to point out the stupidity and irony of his statement.
As far as what I think is an AR...if it has the original AR gas operating system, then it qualifies. The bolt, carrier, gas tube, re and buffer...if those are present and configured like originally designed, then that's my personal criteria.
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I like the truck reference here. Ford, Dodge, Chevy all make trucks. They're all a little different but they have many commonalities that accomplish the same task. They don't need to share 100% part compatibility to be considered trucks but they do have some defining characteristics that make them trucks. Same with the AR family of firearms. Some basic commonalities that allow it to accomplish the same basic task.
Yep. Chevy's have Active Fuel Management with cylinder deactivation. It would be disingenuous to claim it isn't a truck even though that is a significant mechanical variation.
I'd say AR15 style weapon is pretty interchangeable for something with detachable mags, pistol grip, collapsible stock, gas operated (piston or direct) semi-auto in 5.56/.223
TactiCool1976
06-26-16, 19:38
If I was to describe it to someone, I would just say it is the civilian version of the m4a1, which is the military version that has full auto capability
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I'd say it was the general style of the rifle and not necessarily every key component being the same or interchangeable.
DocCasualty
07-01-16, 00:20
What, exactly, is an AR-15?
A modern sporting rifle? :shrug:
semi auto with a dbm...
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Failure2Stop
07-01-16, 09:22
https://armalite.com/files/2016/06/AR-Infographic-Updated.png
DocCasualty
07-01-16, 23:03
https://armalite.com/files/2016/06/AR-Infographic-Updated.png
:thumbsup:
This is like asking the question, "what exactly is a 1911?" A Colt Series 70? How about a Series 80? How about a Para P.14-45 double-stack? How about a Coonan or LAR Grizzly?
And what exactly is an AK, for that matter? (is a Galil an AK?)
Various companies have come along and tweaked these designs to one degree of another. In the end parts are only partially interchangeable, if at all. For example a Colt Commander and a Kimber Pro Carry II are both considered 1911s, yet their slides will not interchange. But we still call them both 1911-pattern guns, even if they both deviate from the original design somewhat. ARs are no different. To me if they function basically the same, take down for cleaning essentially the same, and/or take the same magazines they're essentially an AR derivative. Everybody made a big deal over the news media erroneously calling the Sig MCX that the Orlando killer used an AR-15, but c'mon. It may not be a true AR-15 but it's pretty obvious what it's based off of.
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