View Full Version : An honest discussion on the AR15 platform and MOA capability
Eurodriver
06-15-16, 07:31
It seems every single day someone posts that they have a basic, rack grade AR that shoots 1 MOA. I've always wondered how someone can claim their rifle is a 1 MOA gun when they've never taken it beyond 100 yards. I know for a fact those 6920s with FGMM aren't shooting 2.9" ES's at 300 yards so what gives?
Is a rifle that shot one five ground group one time at 100 yards in <1" really a "1 MOA" rifle? Surely in a literal sense, yes. But for the AR platform in .223 how many rounds, and at what distance, does one really need to shoot to be "sub MOA" - not according to bubba, but according to experts/pros and using that metric are there any real sub MOA chrome lined carbines?
If an MOA rifle at 100 will not shoot MOA at 300 is it still an MOA rifle?
Great food for thought.
While I have never been one to make these types of claims, or even pay to much attention to them on my end in my applications, I always wonder how many are being deceitful about these types of stats.
Grain of salt is always good with the online folk.
A true 1 MOA rifle would be capable of consistently placing the center every round fired in a 1" group at 100 yards, for multiple groups, with the same POA for all groups, with the only changes to POI being made by environmental factors.
Like I have said before: there aren't too many of those rifles in the world.
Above cut from F2S' first post in his "Let's talk accuracy" thread stickied in the tech forum. Not my words.
Alnamvet68
06-15-16, 08:00
A rifle that can consistently shoot 1 MOA in most environmental conditions must be in the hands of one capable marksman; the rifle has absolutely nothing to do with it.
SomeOtherGuy
06-15-16, 08:06
It seems every single day someone posts that they have a basic, rack grade AR that shoots 1 MOA. I've always wondered how someone can claim their rifle is a 1 MOA gun when they've never taken it beyond 100 yards. I know for a fact those 6920s with FGMM aren't shooting 2.9" ES's at 300 yards so what gives?
Is a rifle that shot one five ground group one time at 100 yards in <1" really a "1 MOA" rifle? Surely in a literal sense, yes. But for the AR platform in .223 how many rounds, and at what distance, does one really need to shoot to be "sub MOA" - not according to bubba, but according to experts/pros and using that metric are there any real sub MOA chrome lined carbines?
1) How many 6920's have you tested at 300 yards? I seem to remember Molon had some chrome-lined Colts that shot quite well in documented and fairly rigorous testing.
2) I don't think there is a commonly shared definition of "1 moa rifle". For starters, do you mean the mean radius of a group or the extreme spread? Groups of 5, 10, 30, or averaging 5 groups of 5 shots each?
3) How many ammo types will you try? Are customized handloads OK? What if they require seating the bullets unreasonably long and can only be made in tiny batches before accuracy suffers? What if they have to be single loaded in a sled? Would you adjust case neck size like a benchrest shooter would?
4) How is shooter skill factored in? Are we using a ransom rest, bench rest, bipod, what? Is a better than GI trigger allowed? Are we going to wait 5 minutes between shots for the barrel to cool to ambient? Do the shooting in a tunnel or enclosure so wind is no factor at all?
I like F2S's definition cited above, but some of the uncertainties I list have to be factored in as well.
I would bet that you can get some examples of the 6920 upper to shoot 1 MOA mean radius at 300 yards, even in decent group sizes, if you play with every possible accuracy trick. But that doesn't mean much for practical accuracy.
I always wonder how many are being deceitful about these types of stats.
I think a lot of it is lack of sophistication or failing to think things through, not intentional lying.
Eurodriver
06-15-16, 08:43
You're thinking too much. Any ammo is allowed, any trigger, any shooter. This is less about those factors and more about the gun.
As far as I know, Molon has never tested anything beyond 100 yards. I have, in fact, tested a 6920 to 300 and beyond and never saw anything less than 2 MOA (I didn't pull that number out of a hat). Additionally, I have tested a free floated 12.5" BCM out to 565 and saw ~20" ES's. These results are in threads made by me and are all searchable on M4C.
FYI Mean radius is not ES.
Eurodriver
06-15-16, 09:25
Something interesting that maybe did not come across in my OP is that it seems 100 yards is the benchmark for 1 MOA.
Is it only at 100 yards? What about rifles that can shoot 1 MOA at 100 but can't at 400? Are they "1 MOA rifles"? After all, 1 MOA is an angular measurement not dependent upon distance.
Damn near any weekend in the United States there is either a CMP or NRA Highpower Rifle match fired using military style service rifles or equivalents (the M1, M14, M16, and M4).
Anyone in good legal standing can shoot the matches.
Any service rifle (or clone), this year any sight (up to 4-power magnification), any safe trigger (capable of picking up a 4 pound weight) and any safe ammunition.
An expert score is 89 through 93.99% fired on standard military/NRA bullseye targets at 200, 300, and 600 yards (or at shorter ranges using scaled targets -- you could shoot a match entirely at 100 yards!) from standing, sitting, and prone. The X-ring and 10-ring serving as your "Bullseye" are nominally 2-MOA across -- fricking HUGE, right?!
While you can shoot it with a GI chrome-lined barrel (and do well), most of the winners and champions will opt for a match barrel.
In a word, once bullets start straying away from an expected MOA to MOA-and-a-half mean radius grouping from aiming point (due to wind, hold, pressure spread, eyesight, etc.) frustration builds until you find a solution to fix it. Typically a 68-to-77 grain bullet will maintain expectations for a trained junior (14-to-20 year old) marksman to 300 yards on a round bullseye (500 if on a big E-type silhouette) while most will use a 75 A-MAX or 80-grain HPBT at 600.
I'm no expert, but I think to have a 1 MOA rifle/carbine you need:
quality barrel
quality optic
good 2 stage trigger
skilled shooter helps
This is for serious range, 300-500 yards
Something interesting that maybe did not come across in my OP is that it seems 100 yards is the benchmark for 1 MOA.
Is it only at 100 yards? What about rifles that can shoot 1 MOA at 100 but can't at 400? Are they "1 MOA rifles"? After all, 1 MOA is an angular measurement not dependent upon distance.
Larry Vickers has a video of him at Gunsite shooting long distances. His spotter, Walt Wilkinson is a long distance instructor at Gunsite and when he was asked about MOA basically said the a rifle is a MOA rifle or it's not. He said there was no such thing as sub MOA. He also said that a MOA rifle you shoot under and inch at 100 yards and the further you go the more your groups would open up and still be considered MOA accuracy ( 2" @ 200 and so on). LAV said the a fifteen inch group @1500 is MOA and Walt agreed and said that's an excellent group for that range. I realize that they were using bolt guns in this video, I only included it because of the explanation of what MOA means.
https://youtu.be/Psk65mhcxrs
Rayrevolver
06-15-16, 12:42
Something interesting that maybe did not come across in my OP is that it seems 100 yards is the benchmark for 1 MOA.
Is it only at 100 yards? What about rifles that can shoot 1 MOA at 100 but can't at 400? Are they "1 MOA rifles"? After all, 1 MOA is an angular measurement not dependent upon distance.
Can you explain what would cause a rifle to shoot 1 MOA at 100y and not hold 1 MOA at 400y?
If the answer is wind/air mass, then is that the rifles fault? If you can control the variables the 1 MOA rifle should hold 1 MOA until something upsets the bullet, like maybe going transonic.
EDIT: This recent thread discusses this:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?184534-Long-range-shooting-and-quot-accuracy-quot-getting-better-with-distance&p=2325836#post2325836
Throat erosion can damage the bullets jacket and cause this. It's been explained in several other threads.
Eurodriver
06-15-16, 13:00
Can you explain what would cause a rifle to shoot 1 MOA at 100y and not hold 1 MOA at 400y?
If the answer is wind/air mass, then is that the rifles fault? If you can control the variables the 1 MOA rifle should hold 1 MOA until something upsets the bullet, like maybe going transonic.
EDIT: This recent thread discusses this:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?184534-Long-range-shooting-and-quot-accuracy-quot-getting-better-with-distance&p=2325836#post2325836
Thanks for the link, but I started that thread so I'm well aware of it.
There are lots of reasons that can cause a rifle to shoot MOA up close and not MOA further out that are entirely a result of the rifle without regard to environmental factors. One is the way button rifles barrels are constructed and can increase the range of velocity SDs causing excessive vertical dispersion at 400 yards that does not show up at close ranges.
That, however, is outside the scope of this thread. How many rack grade ARs are really MOA rifles? Reading the forum you'd think ARs are more often than not MOA shooters but when I try to hit 2/3 MOA targets at 600 yards people call me crazy.
If a 6920 is an MOA shooter at 100 then it should be a sure thing to get a 6" gong at 600 if wind is not a factor, right? Then why aren't more people doing it?
The more distance, the more variables, and the more the shooter comes into play.
I don't think there are many rifles that are capable (standard guns like you define). The colt socom barrels look to be very close though.
I have shot a sub 1" 5 shot group at 100 with my rifle, but haven't gotten around to trying to repeat it, nor do I expect it to do it on demand. I think people use 3 shot groups too much as well.
If I told you that the M4/M16 with Match ammo off of sandbags is a MOA-capable gun to 300 yards would you believe me? Why or why not?
Because so few people actually try to shoot that far?
"Oh shit -- that's CRAZY talk!"
Eurodriver
06-15-16, 13:51
Sinister, I hear what you're saying and I'm with you. I rarely shoot under 300 yards and you can always catch my buddies and I shooting out 10.5/11.5 SBRs at 600 yards. People rarely shoot beyond 100 yards and that's irritating because those same guys will be the first ones to tell you that SBR's "don't shoot that far" :rolleyes: It's also part of the reason I made this thread. Sure, that PSA frankenbuild may shoot "3/4 MOA" 3 shot groups at 100 yards but when you're putting 30 rounds on target at 500 don't expect a 3.75" group - don't even expect a 10" group.
To directly answer your question, now that you know where I'm coming from, my experience shows that a rack grade M4 would be very unlikely to sling 3" ES's at 300 yards even with match grade handloaded ammo. My 20" Krieger with all the bells and whistles barely holds 2" groups at 300 yards with handloaded TMKs and I'm a decent shooter with some skills honed while wearing an eagle standing on top of a globe with a navy symbol behind it. However, I'm guessing because you asked the question you have a different answer ;)
As far as I know, Molon has never tested anything beyond 100 yards.
Variable wind aside, what would make a rifle capable of holding 1 inch groups at 100 yards not be capable of holding 3 inch groups at 300 yards? (Same ammunition, same shooter, etc.)
Since most people don't know how to calculate mean radius, or don't feel like doing that much math for a thirty round group, whenever someone mentions a 1 MOA rifle, unless otherwise noted, the image of a the extreme spread of the best three round group he shot that session, and anything else shot that day was "operator error".
Just me.
Eurodriver
06-15-16, 14:04
Variable wind aside, what would make a rifle capable of holding 1 inch groups at 100 yards not be capable of holding 3 inch groups at 300 yards? (Same ammunition, same shooter, etc.)
Since most people don't know how to calculate mean radius, or don't feel like doing that much math for a thirty round group, whenever someone mentions a 1 MOA rifle, unless otherwise noted, the image of a the extreme spread of the best three round group he shot that session, and anything else shot that day was "operator error".
Just me.
That has already been answered above.
I use extreme spread as well. Which is why I didn't know why SomeOtherGuy brought up Mean Radius. Did you know why he did that?
There is no single definition of a 1 minute of angle rifle. There is only this rifle shot within a minute of angle under these conditions and whether or not that rifle can consistently do so.
Rifles that can deliver 3 or 5 shot groups that are 1 MOA or less at 100 yards are 1 MOA rifles under these conditions. If the same rifles cannot deliver 10 shot groups at 100 yards then they are not MOA rifles under different conditions. But it does not change the fact they are MOA rifles when firing 3 or 5 shot groups.
Rifles can deliver groups in which the groups vary by range. Some rifle/ammo combinations deliver groups in which measure larger in MOA at 100 yard than they do at 300 because the bullets haven't had a chance to settle in, or "go to sleep" at 100 yards. Some rifle/ammo combinations will stabilize the bullet out to maybe 300 yards so they'll go to sleep sooner, but will not maintain enough RPM to keep them stable past that.
The real answer to "Is the AR an MOA rifle?" is "It depends under what conditions it must deliver 1 MOA precision and accuracy"
I don't get to long range shoot much these days. But I had an M4, M16A2, and a DRMO M14 and different intervals over the years.
The M4 had a good mechanical zero at 100. I booked it at 2ish MOA. Sometimes better, sometimes not. It could take a chest on a steel target at 300 easy which is way more than one would need for popo work.
The M16A2(and briefly A1) were odd because they got 2.5 to 3 MOA at 100 but did better at 300. Iron Sights only.
I'm assuming ammo and barrel twist played a part.
Then there was the M14. I used mainly 147 gr ball and irons. It got 3 MOA, but a GOOD 3MOA. That sumbitch made a satisfying 'DING' at the 300 steel.
If I know my hold at 300, 100, and 25m; that's all I'm really concerned with.
That has already been answered above.
I use extreme spread as well. Which is why I didn't know why SomeOtherGuy brought up Mean Radius. Did you know why he did that?
I ask because the "perfect gun", shooting "perfect ammunition", (aka, a ballistic calculator) shows less than 0.2" change in POI for a +/-40 fps change in velocity at 600 yards.
So, same ammo, bullet, two targets at different ranges, should hold angular spreads fairly close together. (The worst Ball ammo I can find specifications for requires at least +/- 40 fps extreme spread in velocity, match stuff is more like +/- 25 - 30 fps.
So, what, aside from environmental conditions, would cause a massive change in angular dispersion? (Obviously we are not talking about crappy Ball bullets that only holds 2.5 to 3.0 MOA, because, how can you shoot a 1 MOA group if the ammo is no better than 2.5 MOA?)
EDIT: A 15% change in BC will also increase the extreme vertical by another 0.1" at 600 yards, but I find it hard to believe match bullet have that kind of variation in shape.
EDIT #2 Going from 200 yards to 1000 yards, you shouldn't see more than 0.5 MOA increase in extreme vertical spread. The increase going from 100 to 300 yards will be lost in the aiming error....
SomeOtherGuy
06-15-16, 15:37
FYI Mean radius is not ES.
Yes, I know, that's I asked "or" between the two options.
I use extreme spread as well. Which is why I didn't know why SomeOtherGuy brought up Mean Radius. Did you know why he did that?
Mean radius and extreme spread are two commonly used and reasonable options for assessing group size. Often times the ES will be 2-3 times as large as the mean radius, so a rifle that shoots 1 MOA for MR may be 2.5 MOA for ES, and it's shooting the same groups. You need to decide on one to ask "is XYZ a 1 MOA rifle?"
ES is obvious and easy to measure, but will produce exaggerated numbers when a few shots are far from most impacts, whether due to ammunition, rifle, wind, or shooter skill factors. The MR, as an average, is much less affected by one or two outlier shots, and that makes it much better for comparisons.
While you could calculate MR by hand, there are free software programs that do it for you, such as On Target. You photograph or scan your target, mark the bullet holes, answer some simple questions like distance, and it calculates the numbers. You routinely see photos of this program's output when discussing precision rifles.
Variable wind aside, what would make a rifle capable of holding 1 inch groups at 100 yards not be capable of holding 3 inch groups at 300 yards? (Same ammunition, same shooter, etc.)
Can you explain what would cause a rifle to shoot 1 MOA at 100y and not hold 1 MOA at 400y?
Wind is a huge variable when your groups get smaller or distances get larger. Wind that's irrelevant for blasting at 25 yards can make for an impossible day shooting precisely at 600 yards. 300 is far enough for wind to be a major factor. And it's not just the average amount of wind, it's how much it varies in both speed and direction between each shot, and how it varies over the flight distance. If you watch wind flags at a long outdoor range you'll notice that they are rarely if ever doing the same thing at various distances. You need an indoor range or tunnel to take wind out of the equation and measure what the rifle/cartridge setup can really do.
Besides wind, other factors can affect accuracy to a greater degree at longer distances:
-marginal barrel twist resulting in marginally stabilized bullets, which may be adequately stable to group well at shorter distances but not consistently stable at longer distances
-excessive barrel twist resulting in over-stabilized bullets; over-stabilized bullets present two issues: (1) any rotational asymmetries in the bullet cause more wobble, and (2) at long distances the bullet orientation remains more upright than its trajectory, so the bullet is effectively flying sideways to an increasing degree, which messes with aerodynamics
-we've recently learned that polymer tips on tipped bullets start melting, and don't do so in perfectly the same way each time so can cause accuracy issues
The only real factor I can think of is if the bullet goes transonic....
1 Minute of angle is 1/60th of a degree and remains so regardless of the method to measure group size. 1 MOA makes a circle just a tick over 1 inch in diameter at 100 yards, 2 inches in diameter at 200 and so on. How the groups are measured does not change that
I have several rifles that I shoot 1 MOA or better at 100 yards, (none are AR's) however, I am unable to shoot less than a 3 inch group at 200 with any of them. I always figured it's me and not the rifle.
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I understand the reasoning behind mean radius, but I prefer to use extreme spread when determining how well a rifle will shoot.
When I was shooting High Power, I wanted a match rifle, with match barrel and good ammunition to hold 1/2 MOA at 300 yards and it was possible. Once you eliminate the stability of the bench, sub MOA groups at 300 yards were possible from the prone position.
I've owned a few carbines with chrome lined barrels and only one would shoot 1" groups at 100 yards using Hornady 55g V-Max. The same carbine would not hold under 3" at 300 yards, it would shoot sub 5" groups. I've learned to accept the fact that most carbines I have owned would shoot sub 3 MOA groups at 300 and sometimes 400 yards.
A lot of people who tell you their carbine will shoot sub MOA groups are picking one or two groups out of ten. People often discount flyers when they talk about group size, which is just plain wrong. If you shoot 9 rounds into a ragged hole, then 1 round opens the group to 1-1/2 MOA, and you consistently do that, you have a 1-1/2 MOA rifle/ammunition combination. To cherry pick 9 rounds and claim a sub MOA rifle is a load of bunk.
You also have a large group of people who shoot their carbine once a year at a distance of 25 yards. They may shoot a single 1/4" group off the bench with optics, sand bags, etc., multiply their group size by 4, then claim they have a MOA carbine.
Anyone can shoot groups at 50 yards and post pictures on the internet claiming they are 100 yard groups. Who is to know without verification?
If a person is willing to bet money on how well their carbine with chrome lined barrel will group and offer to pay for your hotel room and airfare if they lose the bet, they may have a carbine that will consistently shoot MOA at 300 yards. Otherwise, I would take their claim with a grain of salt.
People at the range saying "my rifle shoots MOA or 3/4 MOA" etc has always irked me. I smile and nod because there is no standard for these statements and some people think it is their best 3 shot group ever, some think it is their average 5 shot group, some people just talk. I'm a fan of 10 shot groups minimum and mainly using mean radius as a measure of a rifles precision.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=82297
I have been punching paper for a long time with a rifle and pistol.
Rifle 100 to 500 yds. benched or prone.
Pistol 25 to 50 yds. one handed.
When I look at my fired targets I see where the round entered the target from my point of aim.
Say I shoot 10 shots at 100 yds using the same point of aim.
My total extreme spread is 2 inches center to center of the bullet holes.
But, bear with me, the way I look at it is that from my point of aim to the outermost bullet hole is only 1 inch.
What I am trying to say is that mean radius is a better way at determining your group size.
Point;
If I aim at the center of a target and my impact is an inch off, then I have an moa rifle.
If I aim at the center of the target again and my impact is an inch off the other side, then I have an moa rifle.
Did I just not shoot an inch from my point of aim ?
Keep shooting and if after 30 rounds expended I have a 2 inch extreme spread with 1 inch left and right of the point of aim, well; to me that is a 1 inch group.
Point for mean radius is that most shooters know about it but do not realize it.
Look at sighting in a firearm, we know which way to move the sights after firing a few rounds, not from the extreme spread but from where the rounds land from our point of aim.(mean radius).
Clarence
Vegasshooter
06-17-16, 09:37
Euro, I love conversations like this. I have read many of your posts, and I enjoy them. I'd really like to shoot with you. I, like you, have built a couple of ARs, and began my journey down the rabbit hole of sub MOA gas guns. I find that the biggest issue I have when chasing 1MOA gas guns is ME. I have a couple rifles that are sub 1MOA capable. The key phrase I always use is: "the rifles are capable of sub MOA." I find that the challenge with gas guns and sub MOA shooting is the trigger. There is much more mass that is moving, and the lock time is much longer, thus increasing the chances for ME to mess up. I can't count how many times I have put down 4 shots that can be covered with a dime, only for ME to twitch the trigger on ONE shot and double my group size! �� Last week I put down a nice 5 shot group that measured .82 MOA. It was a 5 shot group that I was proud of. The whole point I'm trying to make is that I did my part for all 5 shots, and the I was able to make the group. I know the variable was and is always ME. I think a huge part of the equation is the shooter. You well know this too, I believe. I feel like "the rifle is capable" is accurate because that statement takes out the biggest variable: the loose nut behind the trigger!! Lol.
If folks are honest, then we might start getting the answers. That honesty would be: "I'm not always able to control the variables well enough to shoot this rifle sub MOA out to 200/300/400 etc." I am honest enough with myself to say it. With gas gun triggers, when I'm perfect, I can, under perfect circumstances, turn in sub MOA 5 shot groups.
That doesn't sound as sexy as "This baby is all day sub MOA." When I read that, I start questioning.
Curious about your thoughts.
Thanks for the link, but I started that thread so I'm well aware of it.
There are lots of reasons that can cause a rifle to shoot MOA up close and not MOA further out that are entirely a result of the rifle without regard to environmental factors. One is the way button rifles barrels are constructed and can increase the range of velocity SDs causing excessive vertical dispersion at 400 yards that does not show up at close ranges.
That, however, is outside the scope of this thread. How many rack grade ARs are really MOA rifles? Reading the forum you'd think ARs are more often than not MOA shooters but when I try to hit 2/3 MOA targets at 600 yards people call me crazy.
If a 6920 is an MOA shooter at 100 then it should be a sure thing to get a 6" gong at 600 if wind is not a factor, right? Then why aren't more people doing it?
I think the reason more people aren't shooting at distance is the lack of ranges you can shoot at that are further than 100yds. Most of us run red dots on our carbines, and most of us don't have the eyesight to shoot MOA groups with a red dot beyond 100 yds.
I think the reason more people aren't shooting at distance is the lack of ranges you can shoot at that are further than 100yds. Most of us run red dots on our carbines, and most of us don't have the eyesight to shoot MOA groups with a red dot beyond 100 yds.
This. Im going long range monday, it will be the first time in years past 100 due to distance availability.
It's going to be the first time past 100 with my 1-4 and match ammo, can't wait to see what I can do.
Discussions like this really make me yern to take it out a ways. I'll have to see how far we can stretch it .
The rifle is solid 1.5moa so far, but the 75otm has performed well, so I'll report back what I find. It's a cl centurion barrel.
Eurodriver
06-18-16, 11:07
I think the reason more people aren't shooting at distance is the lack of ranges you can shoot at that are further than 100yds. Most of us run red dots on our carbines, and most of us don't have the eyesight to shoot MOA groups with a red dot beyond 100 yds.
You're in Alaska! How can you not have 2000 yards nearby? ;)
Euro, I love conversations like this. I have read many of your posts, and I enjoy them. I'd really like to shoot with you. I, like you, have built a couple of ARs, and began my journey down the rabbit hole of sub MOA gas guns. I find that the biggest issue I have when chasing 1MOA gas guns is ME. I have a couple rifles that are sub 1MOA capable. The key phrase I always use is: "the rifles are capable of sub MOA." I find that the challenge with gas guns and sub MOA shooting is the trigger. There is much more mass that is moving, and the lock time is much longer, thus increasing the chances for ME to mess up. I can't count how many times I have put down 4 shots that can be covered with a dime, only for ME to twitch the trigger on ONE shot and double my group size! �� Last week I put down a nice 5 shot group that measured .82 MOA. It was a 5 shot group that I was proud of. The whole point I'm trying to make is that I did my part for all 5 shots, and the I was able to make the group. I know the variable was and is always ME. I think a huge part of the equation is the shooter. You well know this too, I believe. I feel like "the rifle is capable" is accurate because that statement takes out the biggest variable: the loose nut behind the trigger!! Lol.
If folks are honest, then we might start getting the answers. That honesty would be: "I'm not always able to control the variables well enough to shoot this rifle sub MOA out to 200/300/400 etc." I am honest enough with myself to say it. With gas gun triggers, when I'm perfect, I can, under perfect circumstances, turn in sub MOA 5 shot groups.
That doesn't sound as sexy as "This baby is all day sub MOA." When I read that, I start questioning.
Curious about your thoughts.
This is a good post, but I must admit I thought it was going in the direction of "I like you, I like your posts...but you're also an idiot." ;)
I can get behind what you said 100%. Here is a great example. I built an SPR at the beginning of the year for the sole purpose of shooting 4" gongs at 600 yards - a tall order for any non BR gun especially a semi-auto 223. Here was one of my first groups at 500 yards. (You can see the gongs to the right at 600)
http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w521/6234987u02/Flyerin_zpsyhj8efd1.jpg
I know with 100% certainty that the flyer at 11:00 was my fault with the trigger squeeze. I am used to precision shooting with bolt guns where, like you said, the trigger is immensely different.
http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w521/6234987u02/Flyerout_zpshgrmihdj.jpg
Here is the group without that flyer. It is a hair over 1 MOA, and the mean radius .34 - all meaningless because the actual 10 round group I was able to fire included that high impact.
But look at this: Same ammo, 5 rounds, 100 yards from my first time out with the gun getting it on paper.
http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w521/6234987u02/IMG_5475_zps42vgdxeh.jpg
This is the essence of this thread. I'm shooting 0.4" 5 round groups at 100 yards. Consistently. All day long. But at 500 and 600 I have never shot a group where all of the rounds were sub MOA even discounting obvious flyers. Most, sure. All? No.
So Is my rifle sub-moa? Am I sub moa?
I would say no, because its not sub MOA at the distance I shoot at
Of course this is all meaningless in the practical sense. I don't GAF if my rifle is sub-moa or not as long as it hits what I want to hit where I want to hit it.
My AR and I am capable of printing <1" groups at 100 yards consistently (on a bench). I try not to use the term MOA since, as you suggested, it makes it seems as though I can do that at 200, 300, 400 yds, etc. since it's an angular measurement. The reason is because I am limited to 100 yards at the local range and don't want to pay hundreds of dollars for club membership at a private range. Even then, it is at least a 45 minute drive. You would think that there's lots of open land to shoot on in MO/KS but if you don't know a farmer then you're pretty much SOL and in my case, it's only about once a year during hunting season where I know someone with a few hundred acres (2.5 hour drive). If you watch the videos from G.A. Precision (KC local), you'll notice that their shooting is on farm land.
Also, like you, I think there's little practicality in chasing sub-MOA groups. I just want to hit what I'm aiming at.
There's a recent thread somewhere on the board about bullets "going to sleep" and Molon posting about someone at Frankford Arsenal shooting through paper targets placed 100-500 yards with no significant change in POI. So the 100 yard group was 1", 200 yards was 2", etc.
Here's a post from LRRPF52 on TOS made on 05/09/16 in AR Discussions. It was made in response to the "MOA all day long" thread.
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
The Origin of 1 MOA Accuracy Requirements
We see the term "1 MOA" being thrown out all over the place as if this is some important measure for AR15 accuracy, but is it really?
Where did 1 MOA come from, and why is it 1 MOA and not 2 MOA, or .75 MOA?
We know that 1 MOA is 1.047" at 100yds, but why is that important?
1 MOA is roughly 10" (10.47") at 1000yds. If a rifle/ammunition combination is capable of holding a 1 MOA group at 1000yds, then it is able to do that within a 10" vital zone on a man-sized target.
We're talking about precision long-range shooting with a rifle/cartridge capable of grouping within 10" at 1000yds.
That immediately rules out the AR15 chambered in 5.56 or .223 Rem unless you're single-loading and shooting Service Rifle Matches with 90gr VLDs or other competition bullets that exceed the magazine -limited COL of the AR15.
So why then are so many concerned with 1 MOA accuracy with your AR15?
When I run my DM Courses and list the requirements of what the blaster/ammo/optic should be capable of, I say bring a 1.5 MOA or less system, because we are shooting out to 600yds mostly, at 18" steel most of the time. 1.5 MOA at 600yds = ~9". A 9" cone of dispersion allows for plenty of hit probability at 600yds, wind-reading and shooter errors being a much larger factor than the accuracy potential of the barrel.
So what's the infatuation with 1 MOA at 100yds "All Day Long". You are not accomplishing anything really of value by doing grouping exercises at 100yds if your load proves that it can shoot consistently. You need to step out and engage targets at farther distances, within the ballistic potential of your cartridge.
At sea level, M855 from a 16" goes through the speed of sound at around 800yds, but already has 2 mils of wind drift at 550yds (that's bad if you haven't shot in the wind at distance).
Mk.262 77gr SMK from a 16" has got to be a lot better, right?
Supersonic out to 850yds with 3.2 mils of drift (very bad), and 2 mils drift at 600 (also bad).
Hit probability with either of them is very low at even 600yds, especially from field positions, and I see that with Mk.262 every time I run my courses. Hit probability is actually pretty good with them both out to 400yds up here at high altitude, but drops off after that due to wind. At sea level, your 1 mil wind drift window is out to 350yds, which is good for a basic service rifle in the hands of a conscript-level of performance in a well-trained army.
So if your effective range is extremely limited by wind drift, you are literally pissing in the wind with 1 MOA accuracy parameters with 5.56/.223. Waste of time really, unless all you want to do is take pictures of nice little groups at 100yds, and then feel a sense of accomplishment on that alone.
Your hit probability at distance is highly-dependent on Ballistic Coefficient, not your ability to shoot a poor-BC projectile into 1" at 100yds. This is one reason why the military doesn't waste production capacity on super accurate barrels.
If you do want 1 MOA capability, you should match that with a cartridge that actually flies well out to 1000yds and beyond. For that, you generally want BCs in at least the .5 + region for G1, mid/high .2s for G7.
Look at where your load hits 1 mil of wind deflection in 10mph full value wind, and base your hit probability off of that. Within 1 mil of wind drift, your hit probability is extremely high in a solid shooter's hands. Get on steel at distance, and stop wasting scores of rounds on paper at 100yds. It's really not doing any good for you if you can group 10rds well already.
If all you have is 100yds, do dot drills where you get up off the gun, breaking position, do some push-ups, mountain climbers, burpees, lunges, sprints, in between each shot, then get back on the gun, and manage your hear rate while trying to place shots consistently. That is a far better way to spend your limited training opportunity at 100yds.
Would be interesting if you could set up the shoot through paper screen/targets being used as an example in the other thread that was linked, using your SPR build.
If you can get a handful of .5" groups at 100 as an example, you could then see if the spread carries through to the full distance. It might be as simple as a mental thing, where you know what it can shoot at 100, but you are the one throwing it off at longer distances, a flinch/anticipation, etc.
Of course, depending on the optic, and rest, it is entirely possible that a simple .25" (or even more) POA difference or movement at 100 would easily fall into your normal group size at 100, and you are seeing the normal expansion of said deviation at longer ranges - at least maybe if you take out fliers. I guess the best way to eliminate that possibility would be a mechanical rest and a target scope with increased magnification and very fine cross hairs out at greater distances, but then it crosses into the "is this meaningful information for practical use, if you plan on shooting it with a 10x scope with a useful reticle vs a target scope" area.
I verified zero's and drops yesterday from 100 to 400 yards using my 77gr SMK handloads. All five shot groups.
In my opinion, it's the most consistent way to evaluate the rifle and the shooters capabilities.
100 yd zero - .99" (.99 MOA)
200 yd - 2.63" - drop 2.64" (1.31 MOA)
300 yd - 4.25" - drop 14.85" (1.42 MOA) - 300 yards always gives me a fit for some reason. It's maddening
400 yd - 4.81" - drop 33.00" (1.20 MOA)
I average these together for my MOA evaluation. 1.23 MOA.
It's not very sophisticated but for my purposes it gives me confidence in the rifle and shooter as a team so to speak. To me that's what it's all about anyway.
General specifics on the rifle:
Noveske GenII lower w/ A1 stock and XH buffer and spring
Geissele SSA-E trigger
16" WOA .223 Wylde barrel
AAC M4-2000 suppressor
Leupold Mk4 3.5-10 w/TMR
Ned Christiansen
06-19-16, 08:50
Mean radius..... something I had never considered before Molon brought it out here. It seems a logical and statistically correct, mathematically defensible, and supremely consistent way of analyzing group sizes. But, to me, if there's more than 1.047" center to center between two shots in a group, it's bigger than one MOA. Using MR, you could put X number of rounds through one hole and have one wild flyer and still call it sub-MOA (I'm decent with numbers but not gonna try and calculate that scenario).
So in my mind we need to agree on a few things in order to create our own definition for our own discussion. I think we can all agree that 5 rounds under an inch at 100Y is easier than 10. I know this is a conversation and not a postal match, but if we say "8 of 10 5-shot groups must fall within a 1.047" diameter circle at 100 yards" (not pinned to a POA), would that define it? If we said on the other hand, all groups, all shots at all times, must stay within a 1.047 circle at 100Y", there will be no 1MOA guns. And even fewer than none if we say "At or under 5.235" at 500 yards".
I often get five-shot groups under an inch at 100, sometimes I get a set of 5-shot groups that if overlaid would still be at or under 1"; if multiple groups can be decoupled from the POA it gets a lot easier still but that's cheating sez me (ex: two .600 groups but one is low left of the POA and one is high right). Sometimes I can get a single 10-shot group under and inch, but to this day I have not shot a setup that can do that at 500 and come in under 7".
So can 1 MOA be defined and qual'd at 100 yards? Does it have to be 200, or 500, or could it be 50? In my mind 100 is "traditional" and a good starting point-- far enough out to get an accurate view of dispersion and close enough that conditions, and the characteristics of different calibers (like, say, .30-30 round nose flat base bullets vs/ the latest-greatest 6.5 VLD BTHP) are minimized in the results.
So, I guess my answer is, I have questions......
Vegasshooter
06-19-16, 10:24
Euro, hahaha, no Sir, I don't think you're an idiot. Not at all. Although, I don't post much for fear of being considered one myself. :-)
I went down the 1moa rabbit hole yet again on Friday. The specs on the rifle: manufactured by Archer Manufacturing in Texas. It's a great gun from a small manufacturer. Billet upper/lower. Hand turned Shilen 16" 1/8 match barrel, melonite treated. Geissele MK 8 rail, Geisselle SD-E trigger. Battle comp 51muzzle device (set up for AAC suppressor). Properly staked HPT/ MPI bolt/bolt carrier. Great gun. Set up as a DMR.
Here's the crazy part: I was able a put down one group of .8 MOA, one RIGHT at 1moa (1.04"). Those were Federal GMM 77gr. Then, my best group of the day was with Speer 55 grain Gold Dot Bonded. That's my duty round. To turn in my best group with 55 grain bonded was baffling to me. Bonded 55 isn't supposed to outshoot 77gr GMM. Someone forgot to tell the Speer ammo that I guess. All this just makes me scratch my head even more.
To make myself feel better I went and shot steel at 100-625 yds. I couldn't measure my groups on steel, but the darn 55 grain bonded was nailing steel at 625 in the wind. 19 MOA come up and 8 MOA wind hold was smacking a steel plate.
Makes me never want to shoot small groups, and just shoot for hits on steel at distance. :-) More fun that beating my head trying to coax sub MOA out of these dang AR's.
Ned,
As I said earlier, what makes a 1 MOA rifle depends on what parameters you set. Using your example above, let's say 10 shots are fired at a target 100 yards away. 9 go into the same hole, one lands 2 inches away. The rifle consistently does this. One way to look at this is to say the rifle is sub MOA 90% of the time.
If the mission drives the gear, it also drives performance requirements. If the mission needs the rifle to be MOA for a minimum of 5 shots, then a rifle that meets the requirement can be considered an MOA rifle. But, if the requirement is increased to 1 MOA for 10 shots and the same rifle opens up to more than 1 MOA for 10 shots, it's no longer a 1 MOA rifle.
We can set a standard as to what a 1 MOA rifle is, but it will only be one standard. In some ways, Molon had already set that standard with his method of measuring 3 ten shot groups to determine precision. Using the standard set by Molon, a 1 MOA rifle will deliver 3 ten shot groups that measure 1 MOA or less
"1 MOA" is not necessarily a good definition.
A rifle that puts 10 shots into a single hole shooting flat-based 50-52 grain benchrest or varmint bullets at 100 yards isn't necessarily going to put them into 3 at 300 or 5 or 6 inches at 500 or 600 yards (respectively) depending on winds and the fact they shed velocity the farther out they travel.
jerrysimons
06-19-16, 16:50
"1 MOA" is not necessarily a good definition.
A rifle that puts 10 shots into a single hole shooting flat-based 50-52 grain benchrest or varmint bullets at 100 yards isn't necessarily going to put them into 3 at 300 or 5 or 6 inches at 500 or 600 yards (respectively) depending on winds and the fact they shed velocity the farther out they travel.
This and that post from TOS knock it out. You can't divorce the mechanical precision of a rifle from the external ballistics of the projectile it fires when the measure is on target performance. In the same way that in the real world it is useless to separate precision from accuracy/ poi consistency from poa. Can you reliably hit the target you have to aim at? That is what it is all about. Any discussion of a benchmark of a rifle's precision must be placed within the performance envelope of the cartridge and projectile combo it fires both ballistically and terminally. Nobody would ask how precise a peice of artillery can place shells at 100yds and expecting 10.47" out of an AR at 1000yds forces the question of if there a better tool for the job.
Eurodriver
06-19-16, 16:58
"1 MOA" is not necessarily a good definition.
Agreed.
So why do we see that used in virtually every single discussion of a firearm's accuracy? (This is rhetorical)
As an example, a few months ago I was shooting at the range and some guy had his .270 out. Really nice guy, great person to meet that day. He showed me pictures of the property his son has and that he was going Elk Hunting. We were on a 1000yd range and he was shooting at 100 yards exclaiming "This Savage is unbelievable! I'm shooting about 1 MOA with hunting rounds from Walmart".
Me: "That's pretty good actually, but I've heard Elk hunting is usually a long distance affair."
Him: "Oh yeah, it is. 300 yards at minimum."
Me: "So why are you shooting at 100?"
Him: "MOA is MOA"
:fie:
I think there really is a disconnect between some shooters that say "My rifle shoots 1 MOA all day long baby" because they earnestly believe that their single 3 Round 1 MOA group at 100 will translate to all rounds in an MOA circle at 400. This isn't the case, but how did the MOA infatuation get started?
Additionally, with a great shooter, handloaded match ammo and a perfect precision built cut rifled barreled rifle what is the realistic maximum distance MOA precision could be achieved with the .223 round out of an AR15? Not in a laboratory, but not shooting in a thunderstorm either. On that same note, what about a bone stock 6920 with match ammo?
Schmalkald
06-19-16, 17:55
I've never understood the obsession with trying to get a battle rifle to put rounds into sub-MOA groups to begin with.
Vegasshooter
06-19-16, 19:09
I've never understood the obsession with trying to get a battle rifle to put rounds into sub-MOA groups to begin with.
Many of the rifles being discussed here are not "battle rifles". They are SPR type rifles or DMR types.
I've never understood the obsession with trying to get a battle rifle to put rounds into sub-MOA groups to begin with.
To push the envelope and see what the true capabilities are.
Speaking for myself, I don't care where it falls, but I want to know the best accuracy I can squeeze out of my rifle, and push myself to stay as close to that as possible. If I have a bad day, I know it's me, not the rifle.
"1 MOA" is not necessarily a good definition.
A rifle that puts 10 shots into a single hole shooting flat-based 50-52 grain benchrest or varmint bullets at 100 yards isn't necessarily going to put them into 3 at 300 or 5 or 6 inches at 500 or 600 yards (respectively) depending on winds and the fact they shed velocity the farther out they travel.
I don't necessarily disagree but, neither is MR. When someone starts talking MR I just double their values.
MOA has always been the standard for most people.
It's also harder to hold POA at distance. Although it's a key component, it's not all about the rifle.
Some shooters are just better than others.
I'm a damn good shot at 100 yds but at 300 or 400 yds my ability to hold POA drops considerably and my groups open up.
That's why I evaluate MOA over distances of 100 to 400 yds.
This is a good read. Expand your horizons on the topic verses an opinion from one. Just another viewpoint.
http://www.the-long-family.com/group_size_analysis.htm
"1 MOA" is not necessarily a good definition.
A rifle that puts 10 shots into a single hole shooting flat-based 50-52 grain benchrest or varmint bullets at 100 yards isn't necessarily going to put them into 3 at 300 or 5 or 6 inches at 500 or 600 yards (respectively) depending on winds and the fact they shed velocity the farther out they travel.
Precisely. A person should not refer to a rifle that has not been tested at longer distances as a MOA unit. If your rifle/ammunition combination will hold under 6" at 600 yards, then it would be acceptable to call it a 600 yard MOA rifle.
T2C, I don't agree that a rifle/ammo combination that is MOA at 100 yards must be MOA at 600 yards and at every range in between. That's only one definition. But it's not a one size fits all definition. For some rifle/ammo combinations, it's not a practical requirement, such as an SBR in 300 BLK, especially shooting subsonic.
If the task requires the rifle to be MOA at all ranges out to 600 yards or more then yes, it's a reasonable requirement. If not, then no
MistWolf, If your rifle/ammunition combination is MOA accurate to 300 yards, then it would be a 300 yard MOA rifle. I have a carbine/ammunition combination that will shoot under 7" at 300 yards, but no better than 2-3/4" at 100 yards, so I rate it as a 3 MOA carbine within 300 yards.
If I function test a rifle I repaired at 100 yards, I will tell the person who owns the rifle it shot 1" at 100 yards. I will not tell them it is a MOA rifle. I have no way of knowing how it will perform at longer distances without shooting it at those distances.
I believe MOA gets used a little too often when describing the capabilities of a particular rifle or carbine. I am as guilty as the next guy in using the term MOA when shooting at short distances, out to 300 yards.
T2C, I see your point and I agree that the MOA moniker gets thrown around too much, especially without clarifying under what conditions MOA was achieved. 5 shot MOA groups at 100 is rather pedestrian performance. Reliably delivering 10 shot MOA groups at 600 yards is something else altogether
Schmalkald
06-20-16, 18:47
At 600 yards the shooter's faults come into play much more than at 100, and of course, way much more than at 25 yards.
The rifle may mechanically be capable of MOA performance at 600, but the shooter? Often not so much.
T2C, I see your point and I agree that the MOA moniker gets thrown around too much, especially without clarifying under what conditions MOA was achieved. 5 shot MOA groups at 100 is rather pedestrian performance. Reliably delivering 10 shot MOA groups at 600 yards is something else altogether
Why 10? For that matter why not 20? Or 30 maybe?
What does 10 rounds tell you that 5 won't?
When you start increasing the number of rounds fired at a single point of aim the chances of shooter error increases and groups open up.
IMO that would tell you more about the shooter than the rifle.
Some of you are overthinking this.
Why 10? For that matter why not 20? Or 30 maybe?
What does 10 rounds tell you that 5 won't?
When you start increasing the number of rounds fired at a single point of aim the chances of shooter error increases and groups open up.
IMO that would tell you more about the shooter than the rifle.
Some of you are overthinking this.
A lot of us use 10 rounds as a standard, because most stages of a High Power Rifle course are 10 rounds. Mid range 600 yard slow fire prone is 20 rounds and the local F class matches are 20 rounds at 1,000 yards, so I could see your justification for 20 rounds.
A lot of us use 10 rounds as a standard, because most stages of a High Power Rifle course are 10 rounds. Mid range 600 yard slow fire prone is 20 rounds and the local F class matches are 20 rounds at 1,000 yards, so I could see your justification for 20 rounds.
I get that and if you were training for a competition it would be important but, most people don't shoot High Power or any type of competition for that matter.
All those rounds tell you more about the shooter than the firearm.
I certainly don't mean to discount the shooter but, Euro's OP was about the firearm not the shooter.
Eurodriver
06-20-16, 21:14
I get that and if you were training for a competition it would be important but, most people don't shoot High Power or any type of competition for that matter.
All those rounds tell you more about the shooter than the firearm.
I certainly don't mean to discount the shooter but, Euro's OP was about the firearm not the shooter.
You certainly do introduce more potential for shooter error with high round counts, but (and I am not a statistician so if any of what follows is wrong please correct me) I think everyone knows a rifle is never going to shoot to the same POI every time for every round. In fact, it's never even going to shoot in the same "cone" of POIs assuming that cone is small enough.
From the link Mark posted above
http://www.the-long-family.com/group_size_analysis_files/image008.jpg
http://www.the-long-family.com/group_size_analysis_files/image012.gif
You can think of that as how far (or close) a bullet will impact from the POA using many shots. In order to use a z-test to determine probability you need a sample size of at least 30. This may be why Molon uses 30 in his tests for precision. You must use a sample of 30 or more to have any statistical basis in saying "I am 95% sure my rifle will impact in under a 1" diameter circle every time".
I've shot 20 round groups before at 800 yards, and you're right. It was totally pointless. 800 yards with a .223 is bad enough. Add in variable winds, trigger squeeze, and a blob of clubfoot behind the trigger and you're basically wasting your time but what I struggled with was being able to tell if my called flyers were related to the actual flyers on target. What I would like to do is shoot at 800 and have a camera that allows me to see my impacts as I shoot them. However in a situation like that I still won't be able to call wind errors as, where I shoot at least, the winds are vastly different from 600-800 than they are from 0-600 due to the terrain.
I get the point. I do.
I guess maybe it would be more applicable for someone who only shoots a couple of times a year to fire 20 or 30 rounds and ring the rifle out at a single target than someone who shoots much more than that.
I shoot quite a bit and I'm pretty confident that my rifle can out shoot me. I shoot for the practice, zero verification and the fun of it. It's a challenge as well. Putting 5 rounds as close together as possible at 400 yds near MOA accuracy is not easy. 10 rds would likely drive me nuts.
Following Bryan Litz's writings, an ELITE shooter can judge and work the wind within 1-2 MPH. Look at wind data and see how much that will affect your shots at X distance. That can help keep things in perspective when shooting at distance.
To point out one thing, funny how people carry on about certain carbine zero's and the related bullet path from A-Z when the "system" can't shoot well enough to even take advantage of one or the other.
I had my best outing yet yesterday with this rifle.
I had always considered that I was not a good enough shooter to take advantage of this rifles capabilities but, I was on my game yesterday.
Agree or not, I consider this rifle an "MOA" gun. Now the shooter, not so much. My efforts seem to vary every time out.
I was impressed by my shooting yesterday and had to post this.
https://c7.staticflickr.com/8/7271/27883562926_86c609577e_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/JtYxNW)100 yds 6.25.16 OT flikr (https://flic.kr/p/JtYxNW) by Kin Chandler (https://www.flickr.com/photos/141925964@N03/), on Flickr
https://c3.staticflickr.com/8/7591/27883563826_a70b4a0727_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/JtYy5s)200 yds 6.25.16 OT flikr (https://flic.kr/p/JtYy5s) by Kin Chandler (https://www.flickr.com/photos/141925964@N03/), on Flickr
https://c3.staticflickr.com/8/7426/27883565706_ce1d31121d_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/JtYyCS)300 yds 6.25.16 OT flikr (https://flic.kr/p/JtYyCS) by Kin Chandler (https://www.flickr.com/photos/141925964@N03/), on Flickr
https://c5.staticflickr.com/8/7066/27883567796_2236dc4ced_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/JtYzfU)400 yds 6.25.16 OT flikr (https://flic.kr/p/JtYzfU) by Kin Chandler (https://www.flickr.com/photos/141925964@N03/), on Flickr
Ned Christiansen
06-26-16, 09:39
Very good-- tell us about those targets-- obviously made to present the same POA and each distance, that ought to be a good thing. The target I use is one I made up and also has a 1/2" grid on it, that's pretty handy.
Yesterday on steel I got 5 of 5 into 6 3/16 at 500, I think that's the best I've done. This was with a handload using Nosler 77's, RL 15 and mixed brass. Felt good but also frustrating because 4 of 5 went into almost exactly 2 1/2"! But I have a pet peeve about trying to rationalize flyers out of the group..... no fair. You'll notice I'll never say X-number of shots, I always try to say "X out of X" so the reader knows I didn't "forget" to count the bad ones.
My other pet peeve is pics of targets where three shots in a tight group can be seen but the rest of the target is covered by the gun, ammo boxes, etc..... makes ya go hmmm.
I need to do steel with 69 grain Nosler factory loads, they've been shooting really well for me at 100. Definitely better than my handloads but I purposely not pulling out all the stops on the handloads because, well, I put enough time into them as is.
Thanks Ned. Your 4 out of 5 in 2 1/2" at 500 is really good regardless of the flyer. Flyers are frustrating.
Those targets were made in Excel and are based on the LaRue target. http://www.larue.com/larue-100-count-target-pads
I developed one for each range. All are on a 1/2" grid with the inside portion of the POA being 1" square @ 100 yds, 2" square @ 200 yds and so on.
I print them out on a 11" x 17" sheet. They have worked well for me and I haven't found a better target yet.
Eurodriver
06-26-16, 10:13
Scoby what are the specs on that rifle? I think you posted it before... Good shooting and I too like those targets.
Very good-- tell us about those targets-- obviously made to present the same POA and each distance, that ought to be a good thing. The target I use is one I made up and also has a 1/2" grid on it, that's pretty handy.
Yesterday on steel I got 5 of 5 into 6 3/16 at 500, I think that's the best I've done. This was with a handload using Nosler 77's, RL 15 and mixed brass. Felt good but also frustrating because 4 of 5 went into almost exactly 2 1/2"! But I have a pet peeve about trying to rationalize flyers out of the group..... no fair. You'll notice I'll never say X-number of shots, I always try to say "X out of X" so the reader knows I didn't "forget" to count the bad ones.
My other pet peeve is pics of targets where three shots in a tight group can be seen but the rest of the target is covered by the gun, ammo boxes, etc..... makes ya go hmmm.
I need to do steel with 69 grain Nosler factory loads, they've been shooting really well for me at 100. Definitely better than my handloads but I purposely not pulling out all the stops on the handloads because, well, I put enough time into them as is.
Ned you should give the 77gr TMKs a shot. They stay supersonic out of my 20" Krieger well beyond 900 yards. The super high BC slices through the wind and drops less than any other 77gr 223. They are the reason I no longer shoot 308 ;)
Also, agreed on the targets people post. Some guys just want the Internet to think they're cool. I'd rather show the entire target flyers and all and actually learn something. Maybe someone sees a pattern that they know how to fix and can help. Too many people want to score internet cool points; it seems no one wants to actually be any good.
Ned Christiansen
06-26-16, 11:48
I have some TSMK's I'll get to eventually. I went on a reloading binge over the winter so as to not have to do it in the summer, found the Noslers at a good price and went with the family sized box.
My load is mildish but for the nonce I must have the convenience of being able to use mixed brass and see how good I can make it. Sofar-- satisfactory for the time and money invested (and saved).
Loaded up some Barnes 85 Match Burners too-- have not graphed them but again, pretty mild, next batch will get bumped up a bit.
The rifle is a Noveske GenII lower w/ A1 stock and XH buffer and spring
Geissele SSA-E trigger
16" WOA .223 Wylde barrel
13" Geissele Mk2 rail
AAC M4-2000 suppressor
Leupold Mk4 3.5-10 w/TMR
I have about 400 77gr SMK's left to load but I plan on giving the 77gr TMK's a try soon.
Haven't heard anything but good things about them.
jerrysimons
06-26-16, 12:50
The rifle is a Noveske GenII lower w/ A1 stock and XH buffer and spring
Geissele SSA-E trigger
16" WOA .223 Wylde barrel
13" Geissele Mk2 rail
AAC M4-2000 suppressor
Leupold Mk4 3.5-10 w/TMR
I have about 400 77gr SMK's left to load but I plan on giving the 77gr TMK's a try soon.
Haven't heard anything but good things about them.
Dang man that's some good shootin'! I was expecting way more magnification and a telephone pole barrel.
Gives some illustration to the claim 77gr SMKs aren't quite settled in at 100yds yet and really shine at farther ranges.
daddyusmaximus
06-26-16, 13:24
I have several rifles that I shoot 1 MOA or better at 100 yards, (none are AR's) however, I am unable to shoot less than a 3 inch group at 200 with any of them. I always figured it's me and not the rifle.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
^^^This right here.
For example... I have an AR with a 16" 1/8 twist barrel that I can shoot inside MOA at 100yds. I have been able to repeat this several times. (From the bench) That makes it a MOA rifle in my book. Now, I go to shoot at 300, and I'm looking at 4.5" or more easy. Could be I need a better barrel, or better ammo. Could be I need more glass. (Probably both, plus I have tired old eyes.)
Main thing is that I tend to think of the rifle as a MOA gun, but not myself as a MOA shooter.
I have hunted, and I have gone to war, but I have never been into shooting for the express challenge of small groups at distance, so I never really worried about it. I do like buying quality components for a build, but just to make the most of what I can do. I think that with the selection of quality parts, it shouldn't be too hard to piece together a MOA AR these days. At least I realize that most of the time it is my shooting, range estimating, wind reading, and a host of other crap I'm not good at that is the limiting factor. I have been proud of some targets more than others, but I'm just happy I managed to make it home from Iraq without getting plugged buy some haji. I even got a few of them assholes, but if you count up the large number of rounds I went through, and the small number of bad guys I got, I can't really brag.
I figure, if I can stop a bad guy from hurting me or those around me, I'm happy. Bad guys don't sit still, but they're bigger than 1 inch, and I've no need to shot at one that's far away, unless the Army wants their fat old retired cripple back.
Speaking in terms of the gun itself, the way the parts work together, the quality of the materials and machining, even the consistancy of modern factory ammo, (yo no habla reload) I believe there are quite a few MOA guns out there, but not so many MOA shooters.
So I have a question...
We talk about including fliers, so wouldn't it be necessary to have a rifle rested or in a vise in order to get a true accounting of a rifles accuracy? I know the primary reason my groups open up past 200 yards is MY inability, not the rifle's. Also, it seems that the proper ammo for that gun should be identified before any MoA proclamations are made.
MrGunsngear did a review on a rifle (the Beretta ARX iirc) that did not like the match ammo he had. At all. It grouped something around double what it did with surplus ball. Same gun, same shooter, same day, incredibly different results.
My thought would be if the accuracy assessment wasn't made with the proper ammo, and all efforts put forth to reduce the shooters lack of skill as a contributing factor, then how can it be valid? My rifles will be more accurate in the hands of a professional shooter for example, so on that day are they "variable MoA" rifles? The threshold for MoA should not be dependent on the point at which the shooter runs out of talent.
Am I wrong, or is that all implied to begin with?
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So I have a question...
We talk about including fliers, so wouldn't it be necessary to have a rifle rested or in a vise in order to get a true accounting of a rifles accuracy? I know the primary reason my groups open up past 200 yards is MY inability, not the rifle's. Also, it seems that the proper ammo for that gun should be identified before any MoA proclamations are made.
MrGunsngear did a review on a rifle (the Beretta ARX iirc) that did not like the match ammo he had. At all. It grouped something around double what it did with surplus ball. Same gun, same shooter, same day, incredibly different results.
My thought would be if the accuracy assessment wasn't made with the proper ammo, and all efforts put forth to reduce the shooters lack of skill as a contributing factor, then how can it be valid? My rifles will be more accurate in the hands of a professional shooter for example, so on that day are they "variable MoA" rifles? The threshold for MoA should not be dependent on the point at which the shooter runs out of talent.
Am I wrong, or is that all implied to begin with?
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The ability of the shooter is a big factor. You may own a rifle that you can shoot sub 3" groups at 300 yards with and I may not be able to shoot better than 6".
Everyone does not need to have a shooting fixture to determine weapon accuracy. If you have the ability to shoot sub 1/2" groups at 100 yards and sub 1-1/2"groups at 300 yards with one weapon system, you should be able to determine the accuracy capability of a different weapon system.
) I believe there are quite a few MOA guns out there, but not so many MOA shooters.
There are likely many more MOA rifles out there than shooters.
The success I enjoyed this weekend is not exactly the norm for me. As I said it was the best I've ever done. I get close at times but it's not always the case. I also don't like to make it too complicated either and try to have fun with it.
Some days I know that I don't have my mind right to do that type of precision shooting, and when I'm in that mood, I don't. Sometimes you're on and sometimes you're not. When I feel like that I break out the SBR or the handguns and do some drills.
It will likely be a good while before I replicate those targets again.
The ability of the shooter is a big factor. You may own a rifle that you can shoot sub 3" groups at 300 yards with and I may not be able to shoot better than 6".
Everyone does not need to have a shooting fixture to determine weapon accuracy. If you have the ability to shoot sub 1/2" groups at 100 yards and sub 1-1/2"groups at 300 yards with one weapon system, you should be able to determine the accuracy capability of a different weapon system.
I'd say that was a fair assessment but, shooters have bad days just like other people doing other things.
Three factors are involved IMO.
Top quality rifle, best ammo you can buy or load yourself and the shooter.
If you've bought or built a "precision rifle, have a decent optic, found the right ammo for that particular rifle and can get it to shoot around 1" at 100 yds you're more than half way home.
All that's left is for you to practice shooting it at range. That's where a real MOA rifle and shooter shines.
daddyusmaximus
06-26-16, 21:42
So I have a question...
We talk about including fliers, so wouldn't it be necessary to have a rifle rested or in a vise in order to get a true accounting of a rifles accuracy? I know the primary reason my groups open up past 200 yards is MY inability, not the rifle's.
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I agree. I'm thinking that even many of the guys that falsely brag of MOA guns, probably do have an MOA gun, and are just stretching the truth about their skill with it.
The ability of the shooter is a big factor. You may own a rifle that you can shoot sub 3" groups at 300 yards with and I may not be able to shoot better than 6".
Everyone does not need to have a shooting fixture to determine weapon accuracy. If you have the ability to shoot sub 1/2" groups at 100 yards and sub 1-1/2"groups at 300 yards with one weapon system, you should be able to determine the accuracy capability of a different weapon system.
Right...I agree with all of that. But for the accuracy assessment of the RIFLE...should not the shooters ability or lack thereof be removed from the equation? That would also give better data re: longer shots and fliers. If you have a flier from a rested gun in a vice, you've taken the shooter out of the equation, and can honestly attribute it to that gun. No?
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Right...I agree with all of that. But for the accuracy assessment of the RIFLE...should not the shooters ability or lack thereof be removed from the equation that would also give better data re: longer shots and fliers. If you have a flier from a rested gun in a vice, you've taken the shooter out of the equation, and can honestly attribute it to that gun. No?
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Yes in the truest sense you're right but, it's not practicable for almost everyone.
Right...I agree with all of that. But for the accuracy assessment of the RIFLE...should not the shooters ability or lack thereof be removed from the equation that would also give better data re: longer shots and fliers. If you have a flier from a rested gun in a vice, you've taken the shooter out of the equation, and can honestly attribute it to that gun. No?
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If a person utilized a HySkore shooting rest, it would reduce shooter error, their physical ability to operate the rifle, no question. There are other factors related to the shooter to consider. The shooter's ability to properly set up the rest and equally as important their knowledge and ability to properly clean and foul the barrel.
For what it's worth, when I competed with iron sights I tested a new AR or serviceable AR with new barrel at 300 yards. Off sand bags I required the rifle/ammunition to shoot 10 shot 1-1/2" groups at 300 yards to eliminate the rifle as a cause of error when shooting prone with a jacket, sling and shooting glove.
A good shooting rest will definitely aid a shooter with limited experience in determining the accuracy of their rifle/ammunition combination. An experienced shooter may only require the use of sandbags to steady their shooting position to achieve the same goal.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-01-16, 00:27
Following Bryan Litz's writings, an ELITE shooter can judge and work the wind within 1-2 MPH. Look at wind data and see how much that will affect your shots at X distance. That can help keep things in perspective when shooting at distance.
To point out one thing, funny how people carry on about certain carbine zero's and the related bullet path from A-Z when the "system" can't shoot well enough to even take advantage of one or the other.
Do you mean like a 2moa dot ( that is bigger due to my astigmatism) and the difference in some zeros?
What I always find fun is 2moa+ targets at known distances and the number of misses. I'm thinking like Hosers prairie dog matches in Pueblo. Guns group an inch or under, but what is the probability of hitting a particular fixed round inch?
Eurodriver
06-03-17, 16:44
I shot my AR at 1,000 yards today at paper. Ordinarily, I would consider this a futile exercise as even a cow expelling methane six miles away is enough to shove my little 77gr TMK a mile off target, but this morning there was no wind. I shoot well at 600 in wind, but 1,000 is a joke. I don't know how markm and pappabear do it.
http://i.imgur.com/MoadKzU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KL3aOJG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/GVOzE9a.jpg
Anyway, here's my 1,000 yard 3 round group. Is my rifle a sub-MOA 1k rifle? If a rifle shoots 3 rounds sub MOA at 100 yards and folks call it sub-MOA (and we see it here frequently), why wouldn't my rifle be sub MOA at 1,000? (Ignore the taped up holes, those are from a buddy's .308 at 600 yards)
http://i.imgur.com/WBxwC3T.jpg
I shot my AR at 1,000 yards today at paper. Ordinarily, I would consider this a futile exercise as even a cow expelling methane six miles away is enough to shove my little 77gr TMK a mile off target, but this morning there was no wind. I shoot well at 600 in wind, but 1,000 is a joke. I don't know how markm and pappabear do it.
Anyway, here's my 1,000 yard 3 round group. Is my rifle a sub-MOA 1k rifle? If a rifle shoots 3 rounds sub MOA at 100 yards and folks call it sub-MOA (and we see it here frequently), why wouldn't my rifle be sub MOA at 1,000? (Ignore the taped up holes, those are from a buddy's .308 at 600 yards)
Jesus Christ my rifle looks like a clone to your gun, it's freakish. I agree, you fart while shooting 1,000 yards with 77 grain bullets and might miss steel. The wind has be zero, or steady I mean real steady at 5 or 10 mph and you can lay them on top of each other. On top might mean 20 inch piece of steel.
We have shot very solid moa groups at 500, but 1,000 it's a guessing game. Or just don't fart.
We paint our 500 and can see whats up. Next time out, we are painting that 500 yard and going to try and video hits and not completely embarrass ourselves. Videos don't lie. I have a new spotter and new iPhone adter for video.
If we totally **** it up. We will own it. 1,000 no way to see that non sense.
PB
Eurodriver
06-03-17, 21:04
Speaking of videos...and wind...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAzV7X5EPbc
I'd like to get an iphone video through my spotting scope, how would I manage that?
Do you read the forum's regularly or just get a bat signal every time your name was mentioned? ;) Thanks for replying. I know you guys do that sort of thing on the regular so I'd be curious to hear your input as to what you think about the .223 cartridge's max distance potential for sub-MOA shooting? I will go out on a limb and say it's over 600 yards, because I am damn close to doing it every single time at 600. The problem is conditions change so quickly and affect the round so much you can, and I have, literally shoot a 5" 5 round group at 600 yards and ten minutes later shoot a 4" 5 round group at 600 yards but have the entire group shift three inches up and two inches right due to mirage/wind.
I guess at that point the concern is no longer about the true precision "MOA Capability" of the rifle and load, but the actual knowledge of the shooter to adjust to conditions on the fly....but now I'm just rambling about Brian Litz stuff.
https://www.phoneskope.com
There you go Euro.
There are also cheaper universal versions.
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Torquetard
06-03-17, 21:37
One Time i shot a group that i could cover with my fist with 55gr wolf thru my PWS + red dot @ 200 yards. well bye
Euro, I do a lot more reading than posting. I have to respect the poster on average or I just don't comment.
Yea, I bought a phoneskope too for videos. I'd honestly say that on our range 500 is where we can get consistent readings. Our next target is 640 and a big nasty gong we never paint on a far away mountain. We get hits at 900 and 990, but rarely know exactly where. Just " low right " based on where the steel sways.
We'll try to do some real 500 yard stuff on Sunday. Shoot straight brother.
PB
Euro,
I tried really hard to like the bipods similar to what you have attached to your rifle. I have 3 Harris bipods and never use them anymore as they offer horrible repeatable reset off hardened bench tops. They bounce too much with every shot. Repeatable reset is essential for precision and good old fashioned heavy sandbags have been my staple when shooting groups on paper. One of these days I will splurge and get a Sinclair front rest and proper bunny ear rear bag. I enjoy your posts. Keep it up!
Eurodriver
06-04-17, 17:22
https://www.phoneskope.com
There you go Euro.
There are also cheaper universal versions.
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That's awesome. Do you know if those would work with a PVS14??? I'm assuming they mount to any lens as long as its a circle and within the spec, correct?
Euro, I do a lot more reading than posting. I have to respect the poster on average or I just don't comment.
Yea, I bought a phoneskope too for videos. I'd honestly say that on our range 500 is where we can get consistent readings. Our next target is 640 and a big nasty gong we never paint on a far away mountain. We get hits at 900 and 990, but rarely know exactly where. Just " low right " based on where the steel sways.
We'll try to do some real 500 yard stuff on Sunday. Shoot straight brother.
PB
Let me know how you guys do. I know you guys shoot better than I do (seriously). Are you using MarkM's TMK handload recipe?
Euro,
I tried really hard to like the bipods similar to what you have attached to your rifle. I have 3 Harris bipods and never use them anymore as they offer horrible repeatable reset off hardened bench tops. They bounce too much with every shot. Repeatable reset is essential for precision and good old fashioned heavy sandbags have been my staple when shooting groups on paper. One of these days I will splurge and get a Sinclair front rest and proper bunny ear rear bag. I enjoy your posts. Keep it up!
What kind of rifle/AR do you have? I shoot from a bipod 100% of the time because there aren't sandbags in the field and it allows me to travel lighter, but concrete benches and floors make it difficult. Fortunately, the AR in question weighs about 14lbs with the can on it fully loaded. While it does prevent a good front load, there is no "bounce" whatsoever, hell, there is barely any noise or recoil either. If it weren't for the "Sprong" noise in the buffer tube with every shot I might wonder if the rifle even fired at times.
Euro, I really have no idea but they sponsor a lot of shooting comps and have been passing their products out on YouTube to get reviews.
I have seen people mount them to all kinds of scopes and spotting scopes.
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Many of the guys that falsely brag of MOA guns, probably do have an MOA gun, and are just stretching the truth about their skill with it.
I know my rifle (Faxon GUNNER 20") is capable of shooting MOA or better, but my skills don't show it yet.
Andy
I know my rifle (Faxon GUNNER 20") is capable of shooting MOA or better, but my skills don't show it yet.
Andy
If you're not capable, how do you know?
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I'm no expert, but I think to have a 1 MOA rifle/carbine you need:
quality barrel
quality optic
good 2 stage trigger
skilled shooter helps
This is for serious range, 300-500 yards
Optic quality and trigger have no bearing on the mechanical accuracy of a rifle.
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If you're not capable, how do you know?
I can shoot 3/8" 5 shot groups with it at 50 meters (from a rest), my best 5 shot group at 100 meters today was 5/8 x 1 1/8" with an obvious and called flyer.
Andy
So you shot a descent group. Do you think your rifle can do it on demand every time?
Euro,
The bipods were mounted on 30 caliber rifles. One a m21 and the other a 30-06 bolt rifle for chasing bambi. It is very likely that the greater recoil impulse of these two rifles over a heavy 556 may have resulted in excessive bounce. I swear it was like shooting with a pogo stick attached to the front of the rifle wth every round fired. Annoying.
The key is that rifles aren't capable. Shooters aren't capable. It takes a combination of rifle, ammo, shooter to produce a result.
If you feed your precision rifle bottom-feeder ammo, and it doesn't perform MOA with it, is your formerly MOA rifle not?
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So you shot a descent group. Do you think your rifle can do it on demand every time?
If this was addressed to me; yes, absolutely to 300 meters with a solid shooter. There are caveats, the rate of fire has to be appropriate for a light barrel and quality ammunition must be used. I would not expect any AR to shoot sub-MOA with crappy ball ammo.
Andy
BadgerPeak
06-04-17, 21:30
This is a forum of (primarily) M4 shooters, discussing a concept that, for them, is not entirely commonplace, and trying to come up with a specific definition. I can't help but wonder why we're reinventing the wheel.
The standard measure of whether a rifle is MOA capable has been fairly standardized on several precision oriented forums for a couple decades. There is some variation in the number of rounds required, but the standard distance is 100 yards. We can argue that all we want, but it's a bit like a Glock forum telling the sniper forums what the MOA standards are.
If we follow what some have suggested about 600 yard plus groups, we are not testing the rifle, but the conditions, and then why stop at 600? By that reasoning, I can claim NONE of you have ever seen an MOA gun because it won't shoot MOA at 2000 yards. That would be stupid.
In discussions with other long range shooters, I use the generally accepted definition of MOA capable as it refers to rifles. When discussing shooters capabilities, that's an entirely different discussion.
For my purposes, which have largely involved law enforcement sniping, there is a far more severe definition. What is the WORST I have EVER shot with this weapon? A hostage doesn't give two shits about my three touching rounds from last weeks shooting session. The hostage only cares how far from my point of aim, under the worst possible conditions, and under stress, my bullet might strike. I document this figure more carefully than my good groups, because it's FAR more important.
By the way, try documenting this for yourself for a year. You WILL be humbled. I sure was.
If this was addressed to me; yes, absolutely to 300 meters with a solid shooter. There are caveats, the rate of fire has to be appropriate for a light barrel and quality ammunition must be used. I would not expect any AR to shoot sub-MOA with crappy ball ammo.
Andy
But this is hearsay, as you said you've not done it. Log it over a period of time. See what happens.
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But this is hearsay, as you said you've not done it. Log it over a period of time. See what happens.
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More of an unproven theory than hearsay. I agree with logging over a period of time. Referencing only exceptional groups is meaningless.
Andy
Eurodriver
06-05-17, 19:40
This is a forum of (primarily) M4 shooters, discussing a concept that, for them, is not entirely commonplace, and trying to come up with a specific definition. I can't help but wonder why we're reinventing the wheel.
The standard measure of whether a rifle is MOA capable has been fairly standardized on several precision oriented forums for a couple decades. There is some variation in the number of rounds required, but the standard distance is 100 yards. We can argue that all we want, but it's a bit like a Glock forum telling the sniper forums what the MOA standards are.
If we follow what some have suggested about 600 yard plus groups, we are not testing the rifle, but the conditions, and then why stop at 600? By that reasoning, I can claim NONE of you have ever seen an MOA gun because it won't shoot MOA at 2000 yards. That would be stupid.
In discussions with other long range shooters, I use the generally accepted definition of MOA capable as it refers to rifles. When discussing shooters capabilities, that's an entirely different discussion.
For my purposes, which have largely involved law enforcement sniping, there is a far more severe definition. What is the WORST I have EVER shot with this weapon? A hostage doesn't give two shits about my three touching rounds from last weeks shooting session. The hostage only cares how far from my point of aim, under the worst possible conditions, and under stress, my bullet might strike. I document this figure more carefully than my good groups, because it's FAR more important.
By the way, try documenting this for yourself for a year. You WILL be humbled. I sure was.
What is the furthest distance you have engaged a threat at and what would you consider your average distance?
Please provide AO for context.
BadgerPeak
06-05-17, 20:33
What is the furthest distance you have engaged a threat at and what would you consider your average distance?
Please provide AO for context.
Your question assumes multiple engagements, which would be rare (almost unheard of) for an LE sniper.
One engagement. 7 yards, best we can determine. M4, not in a sniper context.
I've deployed past 1000 yards (fugitive recovery in mountainous terrain), and under 40 yards (barricaded subject). Average would be meaningless as the extremes of long and short range usually serve very different purposes. In town, most are under 100 yards. Out of town, 300 was more common.
Western US, mostly rural.
I don't mind answering the question, but I'm not sure how my experience relates to the discussion. If this was a sidetrack, I'm sorry. Just answering a question I was asked.
5 rounds in an inch at 100 is moa to me. Past that, I feel I need optics to shoot groups. We can't shoot long range groups at our current hide because the wind is so unstable. Doesn't mean the guns aren't capable.
This is a forum of (primarily) M4 shooters, discussing a concept that, for them, is not entirely commonplace, and trying to come up with a specific definition. I can't help but wonder why we're reinventing the wheel.
The standard measure of whether a rifle is MOA capable has been fairly standardized on several precision oriented forums for a couple decades. There is some variation in the number of rounds required, but the standard distance is 100 yards. We can argue that all we want, but it's a bit like a Glock forum telling the sniper forums what the MOA standards are.
If we follow what some have suggested about 600 yard plus groups, we are not testing the rifle, but the conditions, and then why stop at 600? By that reasoning, I can claim NONE of you have ever seen an MOA gun because it won't shoot MOA at 2000 yards. That would be stupid.
In discussions with other long range shooters, I use the generally accepted definition of MOA capable as it refers to rifles. When discussing shooters capabilities, that's an entirely different discussion.
For my purposes, which have largely involved law enforcement sniping, there is a far more severe definition. What is the WORST I have EVER shot with this weapon? A hostage doesn't give two shits about my three touching rounds from last weeks shooting session. The hostage only cares how far from my point of aim, under the worst possible conditions, and under stress, my bullet might strike. I document this figure more carefully than my good groups, because it's FAR more important.
By the way, try documenting this for yourself for a year. You WILL be humbled. I sure was.
Things really get interesting when you factor in your shooting with a clip on NOD, lasers, illuminators...
As far as a rack grade service rifle, LAV did a target for BCM or Aimpoint? (I can't remember) and it was along the lines of how do you stack up to shooting against LAV. Locally I was running a match at the time and I remember overhearing some guys chest thumping about how they could do much better..blah, blah... I would always ask them to show me but no one could with a CL patrol rifle. I always felt putting that group out for the world was both very humbling and very much spot on with what I consider a baseline for a M4 with a RDS and decent mil ammo.
I owned a 16" SR15 that I ran in a VTac class that was a true black sheep. Kyle praised how well the rifle shot several times, I'm talking ragged 10 shot holes at 100 yards. I've only seen 2 LMT CL barrels on MRP's come anywhere near it.
It was this rifle
https://youtu.be/6or5LF659P0
Like a fool I sold it.
I quoted Badger because I ran a DMR in LE & won a State LE Sniper Match in '14, so I tend to look at rifles if they can or cannot fill that role. This is especially true of patrol rifles because the AR may be the only thing I have time to grab. I tend to like a good shooting SS barrel and low power varible (short dot) for that role. I know it'll run all the ammo I can carry but I also know it will shoot well.
In my experience:
The several SR25's I've owned were at best 1.3-1.5 moa rifles with match ammo. This is over hundreds of rounds from logs I kept.
A HK MR762 I had (and REALLY regret selling) was a no BS 0.7-0.8 moa at 100 yards with match ammo. I had several sub 3" groups at 400 yards with that rifle.
I've seen 2 LMT MWS rifles, both with 18" SS barrels run about like the above mentioned Hk.
I've owned 3 Colt 6933's and a 6921. They all shot pretty much 2-3" groups at 100 yards at best.
I personally have never had any luck with Noveske. I've owned 3 and never felt they lived up to the price.
I've gone round and round with AR's and I am currently at a place where the LMT monolithics check all the boxes I need checked. The LM8MRPSC is where it is at for me now for a patrol carbine. I'll eventually get a couple slick CQB MRP's for my Colt SBR lowers. I own a LM8MRPSC20 that is an incredible shooter. The last time I took it out I was shooting at 400 yards with a S&B 3-20 US & KAC PVS-30 with a small piece of reflective tape as a target on a B27 center. I had 5 targets set up this way at 400 and the largest group was 3.3"ish. Most were around 2.5-2.8" 5 shot groups wih BH 556 77gr TMK.
The only other exception is the HK. I like the MR762 and will eventually buy another.
I really have to go back and say for a service/patrol grade rifle, iron sights or RDS, and mil spec (not match) ammo that target LAV put out with his group printed on it is what I consider a good REAL WORLD baseline.
By the way, try documenting this for yourself for a year. You WILL be humbled. I sure was.
Dang reality inserting itself again.
https://youtu.be/DiY_rkwo1Xw
While you cannot tell due to it being a 4x scope at 400 yards, all those shots and 3 more after I cut the cam off were in the neck, roughly 3" center to center. That's with the 20" LMT LM8MRPSC20 and BH 556 77gr TMK.
Do the HBAR profiles provide any measurable advantage at the longer ranges?
Do the HBAR profiles provide any measurable advantage at the longer ranges?
No. Profile doesn't typically affect accuracy much at all with some exceptions , but providing the bullet is stable, longer barrels produce more velocity which tends to reflect in downrange accuracy due to less drift.
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BadgerPeak
06-15-17, 20:15
Most barrel makers would disagree. As a general rule, thicker barrels of the same quality are stiffer, and more accurate. The accuracy difference will be noticeable at all ranges, not just long range.
Each barrel is a bit of a law unto itself, so this isn't a completely hard and fast rule.
Call Noveske, Bartlein, Lilja, Kreiger, or any other high end barrel maker. All will tell you that selecting a heavier profile, as a general rule, results in a more accurate barrel.
How are we defining a 1 Moa rifle? Maybe I missed it earlier in the thread.
I thought of athletic performance as I skimmed through this. Do we define Usain Bolt as a 9.xx 100 meter sprinter? Or as a 9.6 (or whatever his fastest time has been)? He runs every race under 10 seconds, but not every race under 9.7 seconds. Is he defined by his most common times or his most outstanding times?
Where do rifles fall into this? They don't perform exactly the same and conditions change every repetition. Like I said, maybe I missed the standard earlier but is there a definite standard drawn up?
OrlandoJones
06-15-17, 20:45
A "1 MOA" rifle is a rifle that will group rounds into a 1 MOA circle, or less, at 100 yards.
Why does this have to be so complicated for some people? Geesh.
A "1 MOA" rifle is a rifle that will group rounds into a 1 MOA circle, or less, at 100 yards.
Why does this have to be so complicated for some people? Geesh.
How many rounds?
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FaxonNathan
06-16-17, 07:04
Do the HBAR profiles provide any measurable advantage at the longer ranges?
Yes and no.
Two general rules:
-The shorter the barrel, the more accurate
-The heavier the barrel, the more accurate
However, both rules have only slight effects on overall accuracy. Things like the condition of the bore, crown, chamber, and others are far more important.
Where the weight of the barrel will come into play is during strings of fire where the barrel can handle heat better.
So, to answer the question the longer barrel will benefit long-range fire by providing more velocity and the heavier profile will help offset heat at longer ranges.
Yes and no.
Two general rules:
-The shorter the barrel, the more accurate
-The heavier the barrel, the more accurate
However, both rules have only slight effects on overall accuracy. Things like the condition of the bore, crown, chamber, and others are far more important.
Where the weight of the barrel will come into play is during strings of fire where the barrel can handle heat better.
So, to answer the question the longer barrel will benefit long-range fire by providing more velocity and the heavier profile will help offset heat at longer ranges.
You forgot to mention that while the heavier barrel resists heat, it also retains it much longer than a pencil-barrel.
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I have a custom Remington 700 with a Rock 5R barrel and a Larue PredatAR. Not even close to apples to apples but interestingly there is no noticeable accuracy difference for the first 5 rounds. After that the Larue with it's lightweight barrel will start stringing. I've seen the same thing with my Noveske 16" barreled carbine vs. my Noveske 14.5" fluted lightweight.
FaxonNathan
06-16-17, 08:19
Stringing indicates poor stress relief.
A correctly relieved barrel will open up with potentially a slight change in POI, but 5 rounds is still a bit too short for that to move like that.
I have a custom Remington 700 with a Rock 5R barrel and a Larue PredatAR. Not even close to apples to apples but interestingly there is no noticeable accuracy difference for the first 5 rounds. After that the Larue with it's lightweight barrel will start stringing. I've seen the same thing with my Noveske 16" barreled carbine vs. my Noveske 14.5" fluted lightweight.
Define stringing. Do the groups open up, or does the poi follow a new, different pattern?
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It vertically strings. Up and down from MOA to about 2 MOA.
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So it shoots about 2 inches higher after five rounds? Or groups move up and open up from 1" to 2" at 100 yards?
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They move up and open to 1-2 inches. I say 5 rounds but it's appears to be somewhat dependent on rate of fire and external temperature. On occasion I've got 7-10 before it occurs. All ammo is 175 Black Hills. To me for what it is opening up to 2 MOA after a few rounds isn't an issue. If it was an OBR It would bother me.
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Yeah that's nothing worth gripping about.
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OrlandoJones
06-17-17, 10:11
How many rounds?
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Face palm....thanks for making my point.
I put together a precision AR for myself, using a match grade barrel, a Geissele trigger, a high quality scope, and Federal SMK rounds..when I did my part (pause and read that again carefully) ... it provided me with 1/2" groups at 100 yards, rather easily, no matter if I shot five, ten or 20 rounds. I was able to get a torso steel plate target out at 700 yards swinging back and forth one round after another for a whole 30 round magazine.
Yes, the AR can be an extremely accurate rifle....but much depends on barrel, ammo, trigger, optic and .... the guy pulling the trigger.
It ain't rocket science...all this obsessing over "MOA" and "sub-MOA" AR-15s just gets ridiculous after a while.
Face palm....thanks for making my point.
I put together a precision AR for myself, using a match grade barrel, a Geissele trigger, a high quality scope, and Federal SMK rounds..when I did my part (pause and read that again carefully) ... it provided me with 1/2" groups at 100 yards, rather easily, no matter if I shot five, ten or 20 rounds. I was able to get a torso steel plate target out at 700 yards swinging back and forth one round after another for a whole 30 round magazine.
Yes, the AR can be an extremely accurate rifle....but much depends on barrel, ammo, trigger, optic and .... the guy pulling the trigger.
It ain't rocket science...all this obsessing over "MOA" and "sub-MOA" AR-15s just gets ridiculous after a while.
You put all 20 shots in a row into 1/2" easily at 100 yards with an AR-15? That's so awesome.
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You put all 20 shots in a row into 1/2" easily at 100 yards with an AR-15? That's so awesome.
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In my years of shooting I've never seen it except on Internet forums. I shoot precision rifle competitions and haven't even seen it done consistently from the best makers in the world. Amazing the shit you see on the internet.
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You put all 20 shots in a row into 1/2" easily at 100 yards with an AR-15? That's so awesome.
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Even with perfect ammunition and equipment, it would be incredibly difficult to maintain concentration long enough to fire 20 good shots.
For many years I was a precision rifleman on our Sheriffs department team and one of the things we would occasionally do was to shoot as many rounds as possible into a 1 inch dot. If a round touched the line you were out. Concentration and eye strain was always the issue. This was a game and there wasn't a time limit but the goal was to stay behind the gun and shoot, not to take a break after each shot. I hit 11 once, one time only. Most of the time we were good for 5-6, sometimes a few more rounds, if we didn't hiccup and throw one early on. I always did better with my AR than my Remington 700, probably because of capacity. I know 11 one time isn't internet worothy but it was real!
OrlandoJones
06-17-17, 17:04
Even with perfect ammunition and equipment, it would be incredibly difficult to maintain concentration long enough to fire 20 good shots.
Depends on how much time you give me.
The point is, for the people lacking basic reading comprehension skills, a 1 MOA AR is possible, a sub-MOA is possible, but you have to do your part and have the right AR built to do it.
A 2 MOA AR is more than likely for the guy behind the trigger shooting on a square range using decent ammo.
All this obsession over "MOA" AR rifles, is in the final analysis the kind of stuff static benchrest shooters obsess over, people with any real-world experience, or even those who have trained in a stress induced environment, realize is just the stuff of FUDD legend and lore on a relaxed bench rest environment, probably in the shade, puffing on a stogie chatting up buddies and having a relaxed time.
In my years of shooting I've never seen it except on Internet forums. I shoot precision rifle competitions and haven't even seen it done consistently from the best makers in the world. Amazing the shit you see on the internet.
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From my couch, I just shot a bucket of XM193 into sub sub ( new nomenclature for super snipers ) and covered it with a dime. But this morning in the desert, I started to shoot a group with my FN SPR and after two shots I disgusted myself so bad I turned on the steel plate at 100 yards. Shit happens. From couch to desert my groups open a bit at times.
Depends on how much time you give me.
The point is, for the people lacking basic reading comprehension skills, a 1 MOA AR is possible, a sub-MOA is possible, but you have to do your part and have the right AR built to do it.
A 2 MOA AR is more than likely for the guy behind the trigger shooting on a square range using decent ammo.
All this obsession over "MOA" AR rifles, is in the final analysis the kind of stuff static benchrest shooters obsess over, people with any real-world experience, or even those who have trained in a stress induced environment, realize is just the stuff of FUDD legend and lore on a relaxed bench rest environment, probably in the shade, puffing on a stogie chatting up buddies and having a relaxed time.
When I competed in High Power Rifle I tested a new barrel and ammunition combination at 300 yards. My goal was consistent groups under 2" fired off the bench. This required an incredible amount of work, preparation and discipline. AR-15 design and barrel quality is so good groups in the 1-1/2" range at 300 yards were possible. If a new barrel/ammunition combination shot 3" or bigger groups at 300 yards I would table the rifle until I replaced the barrel or sorted out another reason for inaccuracy.
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