View Full Version : Cold Hammer Forged vs Non Cold Hammer Forged - What's Best For Me?
ContractSoldier
06-15-16, 14:35
Good day my fellow forum member's. I hope everyone is enjoying their week!.
I come to you with a question on my current AR15 carbine build. The purpose of my current build is to produce a lightweight carbine with a free float rail system. For that, I've decided to go with the Daniel Defense 15 inch Slim keymod free float rail and a Bravo Company USA 16 inch lightweight barrel.
I'm trying decide if I really need to spend the extra money for the cold hammer forged barrel, the barrel that I'm considering going with is not cold hammer forged, but it does feature the following specifications: 1/7 twist, M4 feed ramps, Mil-Spec MIL-B-11595E CMV steel, chrome bore and chamber, 5.56mm NATO chamber, HPT/MP inspected barrel, mid length, fluted.
The cold hammer forged barrel has the same features, except it is a heavier barrel and not fluted. I'm trying to keep the weight down, as much as possible.
My understanding is that the benefit of a cold hammer forged barrel, is that the barrels life is increased. Non chrome hammer forged barrels are suppose to be more accurate.
Let's assume that the Bravo Company USA non cold hammer forged barrel with the features listed above, only last, let's say 75,000 rounds (I don't know how long a non cold hammer forged barrel from Bravo Company USA would last, so info would be great), I would never wear out that barrel and even if I did, we are talking about an AR15 here, the barrel can be easily replaced. I'm thinking that the non cold hammer forged barrel with the lighter weight and the features listed above is what's best for me, but I would like to here any info that you might suggest.
Fluted non cold hammer forged barrel weight: 1Lb 1oz.
Cold hammer forged non fluted barrel weight: 1Lb 7oz.
Thanks
ColtSeavers
06-15-16, 14:57
Honestly, if weight is a factor, I'd go with the NON CHF barrel. 6oz at the muzzle is a noticable. The difference in barrel longevity has many other factors involved other than whether it is CHF or not such as, but not limited too, type of ammo, speed at which ammo is shot (magdumping for example) and how well it's maintained. As the barrel is fluted, I would strongly urge you to not magdump constantly with it (not that I advocate magdumping to begin with, well, except on occasion for sh!ts and gigles...).
If weight wasn't a factor, I'd vote CHF for the extra 'warm fuzzy feeling'.
Not sure if there is any difference in barrel life due to the chrome.
Seem to recall reading CHF barrels having better concentricity (a potential plus with muzzle devices) and alleged greater burst resistance with water, etc. in the bore.
ContractSoldier
06-15-16, 17:28
Honestly, if weight is a factor, I'd go with the NON CHF barrel. 6oz at the muzzle is a noticable. The difference in barrel longevity has many other factors involved other than whether it is CHF or not such as, but not limited too, type of ammo, speed at which ammo is shot (magdumping for example) and how well it's maintained. As the barrel is fluted, I would strongly urge you to not magdump constantly with it (not that I advocate magdumping to begin with, well, except on occasion for sh!ts and gigles...).
If weight wasn't a factor, I'd vote CHF for the extra 'warm fuzzy feeling'.
Thanks for the info. May I ask why it isn't a good idea to mag dump on a fluted barrel?
I could go with the non fluted barrel which is only 5 ounces more in weight, and is still 6 ounces lighter than a standard M4 barrel.
ColtSeavers
06-15-16, 18:10
Thanks for the info. May I ask why it isn't a good idea to mag dump on a fluted barrel?
I could go with the non fluted barrel which is only 5 ounces more in weight, and is still 6 ounces lighter than a standard M4 barrel.
A skinnier barrel will heat up quicker and not be able to sustain as much heat for as long as a thicker barrel, which is what the flites are supposed to help with (adding rigidity along with extra surface area to vent heat). The problem is the debate about whether they are able to handle as much heat as a barrel of the same outer/non-fluted diameter or the inner/fluted diameter as well as whether heat can cause barrel expansion/warp in weird/unexpected ways. I prefer to stay on the side of caution and treat it as a barrel of it's inner/fluted diameter and not have to be the guinea pig for that particular barrel unless I have to be. Plus, mag dumping with any barrel is just not health for the barrel to begin with (though, again, occasionally quite pleasing).
Also, CHF barrels need a good stress relieve to make it a good barrel that won't warp under heat no matter the profile so buy from a reputable company.
ContractSoldier
06-15-16, 19:04
Gotcha. Sound like I might be better off to stay on the side of caution as well and go with the non fluted barrel which is cheaper in price and is still 6 ounces light than a standard barrel.
ContractSoldier
06-15-16, 19:33
One more question, could I use a Daniel Defense 12 inch Slim Keymod rail with a 16 inch mid length barrel with the gas block not being exposed?
In other words, the 12 inch rail would extend past the gas block so that It's not exposed and remains inside the rail. I would much rather go with the 12 inch rail, instead of the 15 inch and it will save weight.
A rail only needs to be 10" to cover a midlength system with a low profile gas block.
One more question, could I use a Daniel Defense 12 inch Slim Keymod rail with a 16 inch mid length barrel with the gas block not being exposed?
In other words, the 12 inch rail would extend past the gas block so that It's not exposed and remains inside the rail. I would much rather go with the 12 inch rail, instead of the 15 inch and it will save weight.
dirkmagurk
06-15-16, 20:03
My wife's mid length rifle has a BCM 16" ELW barrel with a 10" KMR and it completely covers the gas block. She's only 5ft tall with short arms and this setup is much more comfortable for her. To be honest with you I actually prefer shooting her rifle over any of mine. It's incredibly light and since there's no rail forward of the gas block it feels perfectly balanced to me. I fell into the whole longer rails so I can hold my support hand closer to the muzzle way of thinking. Now after shooting her rifle so well I'm wanting a 10" KMR or maybe the new DD MLOK 10" on one of my rifles.
My wife's mid length rifle has a BCM 16" ELW barrel with a 10" KMR and it completely covers the gas block. She's only 5ft tall with short arms and this setup is much more comfortable for her. To be honest with you I actually prefer shooting her rifle over any of mine. It's incredibly light and since there's no rail forward of the gas block it feels perfectly balanced to me. I fell into the whole longer rails so I can hold my support hand closer to the muzzle way of thinking. Now after shooting her rifle so well I'm wanting a 10" KMR or maybe the new DD MLOK 10" on one of my rifles.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, that whole practice of holding the support hand way up by the muzzle is a bunch of crap.
My wife's mid length rifle has a BCM 16" ELW barrel with a 10" KMR and it completely covers the gas block. She's only 5ft tall with short arms and this setup is much more comfortable for her. To be honest with you I actually prefer shooting her rifle over any of mine. It's incredibly light and since there's no rail forward of the gas block it feels perfectly balanced to me. I fell into the whole longer rails so I can hold my support hand closer to the muzzle way of thinking. Now after shooting her rifle so well I'm wanting a 10" KMR or maybe the new DD MLOK 10" on one of my rifles.
Mine is built exactly the same and it is a lightweight dream to handle. All my friends who've handled it can't believe how light it is and easy to swing. I'm with Kirkland- I don't buy into the hand by the muzzle fad.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, that whole practice of holding the support hand way up by the muzzle is a bunch of crap.
Agree. Lighter is better than longer. Just my personal opinion.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, that whole practice of holding the support hand way up by the muzzle is a bunch of crap.
Agree. Lighter is better than longer. Just my personal opinion.
Can you elaborate on your basis for those opinions? Experience using the system, formal instruction you've had, etc?
I've said it before and I'll say it again, that whole practice of holding the support hand way up by the muzzle is a bunch of crap.
Read more, train more,......post less!!
Eurodriver
06-16-16, 06:31
Read more, train more,......post less!!
A man who practices what he preaches. I like that.
dirkmagurk
06-16-16, 09:10
It all comes down to personal preference. There's no right or wrong way long as you're safely handing the rifle. I've seen plenty of guys shoot courses incredibly well with stock 16's and m4's using the magwell hold for their support hand. Find what works best for YOU and keep it moving.
Mars attacks...
06-16-16, 09:22
which is what the flites are supposed to help with (adding rigidity along with extra surface area to vent heat). The problem is the debate about whether they are able to handle as much heat as a barrel of the same outer/non-fluted diameter or the inner/fluted diameter as well as whether heat can cause barrel expansion/warp in weird/unexpected ways.
That's not true. Fluting removes material which decreases rigidity and mass. A fluted barrel has less steel to dissipate thermal energy and becomes saturated faster than a non fluted example.
It all comes down to personal preference.
No, it really doesn't.
There's no right or wrong way long as you're safely handing the rifle.
Task dependent.
I've seen plenty of guys shoot courses incredibly well with stock 16's and m4's using the magwell hold for their support hand.
There's a lot that can be done with poor technique, but it doesn't make it a good choice.
That's not true. Fluting removes material which decreases rigidity and mass. A fluted barrel has less steel to dissipate thermal energy and becomes saturated faster than a non fluted example.
Here's a learning opportunity:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?144746-New-BCM-barrels&p=1946065#post1946065
ColtSeavers
06-16-16, 09:31
That's not true. Fluting removes material which decreases rigidity and mass. A fluted barrel has less steel to dissipate thermal energy and becomes saturated faster than a non fluted example.
Which part is not true, as we seem to be saying the same thing?
ETA: To reiteate, I am saying that the flutes add extra rigidity and heat dissipation to a barrel when compared against a non fluted barrel of the same inner/fluted diameter of the fluted barrel.
EDIT2: I had originally put inner/non-fluted diameter in my reply as I was still trying to figure out what was being argued which is a contradiction and incorrect, what I meant was inner/fluted diameter and I apologize if my mistake has caused any confusion.
Bears repeating-
When comparing two barrels of equal weight, length, and material but one is solid and other is fluted, the fluted barrel will have:
A larger diameter
Greater stiffness (depending on how the extra diameter/weight is distributed)
Vibrate at a higher frequency (depending on how the extra diameter/ weight is distributed)
Less muzzle sag (depending on how the extra diameter/ weight is distributed)
Fluting a solid barrel will:
Reduce its weight
Reduce its stiffness
Increase its natural frequency of vibration
Decrease its muzzle sag.
Reducing the weight of a barrel by fluting makes a stiffer barrel than reducing the weight by decreasing its diameter.
A shorter barrel of the same section, solid or fluted, will sag less and vibrate at a higher frequency.
From Varmint Al's website http://varmintal.com/aflut.htm
Mars attacks...
06-16-16, 10:22
Which part is not true, as we seem to be saying the same thing?
ETA: To reiteate, I am saying that the flutes add extra rigidity and heat dissipation to a barrel when compared against a non fluted barrel of the same inner/non-fluted diameter of the fluted barrel.
Fluting neither adds rigidity, nor aids in heat dissipation.
The only thing that adds rigidity is additional material. When you flute a barrel and remove additional support to the bore over the fluted area those parts of the bore wear faster and are more subject to failure under a high volume of fire.
Fluting is simply an expensive cosmetic operation that reduces the accuracy and useful life of the barrel. If you want a light barrel then get a lighter profile. If you want sustained fire, or better groups get a thicker barrel. If you want alot of heat dissipation get a heat sink like JP enterprises makes.
ColtSeavers
06-16-16, 11:04
Fluting neither adds rigidity, nor aids in heat dissipation.
The only thing that adds rigidity is additional material. When you flute a barrel and remove additional support to the bore over the fluted area those parts of the bore wear faster and are more subject to failure under a high volume of fire.
Fluting is simply an expensive cosmetic operation that reduces the accuracy and useful life of the barrel. If you want a light barrel then get a lighter profile. If you want sustained fire, or better groups get a thicker barrel. If you want alot of heat dissipation get a heat sink like JP enterprises makes.
I don't think you understand what I've posted in this thread. I suggest you take up Ryno12's and MistWolf's learning opportunities from posts #19 and #21 respectively in this thread and wish you well.
Fluting neither adds rigidity, nor aids in heat dissipation [1].
The only thing that adds rigidity is additional material. When you flute a barrel and remove additional support to the bore over the fluted area those parts of the bore wear faster [2] and are more subject to failure under a high volume of fire [3]
Fluting is simply an expensive cosmetic operation that reduces the accuracy and useful life of the barrel. If you want a light barrel then get a lighter profile. If you want sustained fire, or better groups get a thicker barrel. If you want alot of heat dissipation get a heat sink like JP enterprises makes.
1. Fluting will increase the surface area, and therefore increase the amount of heat radiated from the barrel. That's why old machine gun barrels (and air cooled engine cylinders) are/were finned.
Whether or not axial fluting provides a significant enough increase in heat radiation to make a difference, is up for debate, but there is a measureable increase in heat radiation.
2. No. Increasing, or decreasing the amount of steel around the chamber does not change barrel life (assuming there is enough material to withstand the pressure in the first place), almost all the damage is done by the flame temperature of the propellant.
3. This is true. As steel gets hot, the strength of the steel decreases. Barrel failure under extremely high rates of fire is due to heating the barrel to the point where the tensile strength is less that the hoop stress. The more material, the more heat can be absorbed by the material and therefore the temperature is lower for the same number of rounds fired. However, most AR15 barrels with the standard Govt profile will fail about an inch or two back from the gas block, which is the thinnest portion of the barrel and the portion of the barrel that gets the hottest.
Oh, and one more thing... if the fluting does add material over another given profile, they are stiffer than them. And even if it does not add material, depending on the exact profile of the fluting design, it may be stiffer. An "I" beam with a 4 inch depth and about a 10% web thickness is stiffer than a solid rectangular bar with a 3 inch depth regardless of whether the "I" beam has less material.
Stiffness depends on two things: 1) How much material is present and 2) how and where that material is located. To further demonstrate this, take a wooden 2 X 12 board, stand it so the it is 2 inches wide and 12 inched tall, and see how well it resists bending in the vertical direction, now place it so that it is 12 inches wide and 2 inches tall, it is quite bendy now in the vertical direction...
dirkmagurk
06-16-16, 12:32
People come in all shapes and sizes. The m4 handguards are too fat for some shooters with smaller hands to get a strong grip on. The m16's fixed stock LOP is too long for some shooters with shorter arms to reach and get a solid grip on the handguard. In these cases many choose the magwell hold. I'm not saying it is the best technique but I'm also a 6ft 200lb guy so I have more options. If the fundamentals are there i.e. sight alignment/picture breathing and trigger control then the rest is largely personal preference.
ColtSeavers
06-16-16, 13:13
Fluting neither adds rigidity, nor aids in heat dissipation.
The only thing that adds rigidity is additional material. When you flute a barrel and remove additional support to the bore over the fluted area those parts of the bore wear faster and are more subject to failure under a high volume of fire.
Fluting is simply an expensive cosmetic operation that reduces the accuracy and useful life of the barrel. If you want a light barrel then get a lighter profile. If you want sustained fire, or better groups get a thicker barrel. If you want alot of heat dissipation get a heat sink like JP enterprises makes.
Just caught the bolded bits.
Please explain why the flutes/fins of the JP Enterprise heat sink will help with heat dissipation but flutes in the barrel itself will not.
Since your own stated goal is to reduce weight as much as possible, I would go with the fluted, non-CHF barrel. Barrel life is one of the most overstated concerns you read about online. If you can afford to shoot 5,000+ or even 10,000+ rounds of .223 at the average price-per-round (over the past 2-5 years) out of a barrel, you're likely able to afford:
1) A new barrel if yours wears out (which is unlikely; there are many reported instances of non-CHF chrome-lined barrels still holding acceptable groups after 10,000+ rounds) and,
2) Any replacement parts which may go bad along the way (i.e. your bolt)
Stiffness depends on two things: 1) How much material is present and 2) how and where that material is located. To further demonstrate this, take a wooden 2 X 12 board, stand it so the it is 2 inches wide and 12 inched tall, and see how well it resists bending in the vertical direction, now place it so that it is 12 inches wide and 2 inches tall, it is quite bendy now in the vertical direction... [/COLOR]
Yep. The static beam equation of Euler–Bernoulli beam theory is a function of the second moment of area (aka moment of inertia of plane area, area moment of inertia, or second area moment) calculated about the centroid of the cross section. The more material you have further away from the centroid, the stiffer the beam will be in general, keeping in mind that you must have enough material in the web of the beam to account for the shear stresses.
This can be simplified down somewhat with a barrel due to the necessary design constraints that fundamentally a barrel has to be a tube first and foremost.
I've seen plenty of guys shoot courses incredibly well with stock
16's and m4's using the magwell hold for their support hand.
This works great for me, especially with a sling.
Mars attacks...
06-16-16, 16:24
I make rifle barrels for a living. Including Cold Hammer Forged ones.
ColtSeavers
06-16-16, 16:38
I make rifle barrels for a living. Including Cold Hammer Forged ones.
Look, I and others have been very polite and factual with you, but this has to be a joke.
Long thread summed up:
1) Anything that increases the mass of the barrel will increase the barrel's resistance to over heating. How much depends on how much and where the extra mass is added.
2) Anything that increases the average outside diameter of the barrel will increase the stiffness. How much depends on where the extra material is added.
3) Anything that increases the surface area of the barrel will increase the speed at which the barrel dissipates heat. How much depends on where the surface area is added and how much the surface area is increased.
4) Anything that removes mass from the barrel will make it lighter.
Play with those and you can find the optimum shape and weight that will fit your needs.
What model GFM do you use?
Can you elaborate on your basis for those opinions? Experience using the system, formal instruction you've had, etc?
As I said...my personal preference is for lighter weight. Do I have to provide documentation when I state a personal preference?
Eurodriver
06-16-16, 20:05
As I said...my personal preference is for lighter weight. Do I have to provide documentation when I state a personal preference?
"Elaborate on your basis for those opinions" is not a demand for documentation of formal instruction, that was just an example.
What have you seen when actually firing the weapon that was improved by using that method/equipment? Did you have faster split times? Better hits on target at distance? Easier maneuvering around vehicles or in shoot houses?
Why should I have to elaborate to state my personal opinion?
I suspect y'all are getting ready to ban me since a moderator got involved when I posted my opinion. Is M4C into censoring personal opinions now? Let me know.
ColtSeavers
06-16-16, 21:59
I suspect y'all are getting ready to ban me since a moderator got involved when I posted my opinion. Is M4C into censoring personal opinions now? Let me know.
What are you talking about? Far be it from to to not allow someone to overreact when they are simply being asked how they came to find their opinion that they decided to share on an open forum, but wow, good job.
Why should I have to elaborate to state my personal opinion?
Your last two answers have spoken volumes, you no longer need go on.
This thread is turning into a sh!t-show.
Eurodriver
06-16-16, 22:05
Why should I have to elaborate to state my personal opinion?
Because the appropriate forum to discuss your opinion without any mention of quantitative or qualitative factors as to why it is significant is www.ar15.com
Because the appropriate forum to discuss your opinion without any mention of quantitative or qualitative factors as to why it is significant is www.ar15.com
If everybody is an "operator" do you really need to qualify or quantify experience?
I've said it before and I'll say it again, that whole practice of holding the support hand way up by the muzzle is a bunch of crap.
You can disprove this by giving it some time to learn, then doing some drills with a shot timer that involve horizontal target transitions and/or rapid shots at the same target.
If you're a half decent shooter with working arms and shoulders, you'll improve. If injuries or age physically prevent you from using the forward grip style or your pride is too fragile to give it a fair try and record empirical results, then carry on doing as you are doing.
wetidlerjr
06-17-16, 06:30
Because the appropriate forum to discuss your opinion without any mention of quantitative or qualitative factors as to why it is significant is www.ar15.com
That being the case, we should only see about 5-6 people ever posting on this site about anything.
Fluffy Bunny
06-17-16, 06:45
I disagree. It is good for people to explain their views because the diversity of experiences is valuable, even if not everyone is a tier-one Osama-killer.
For example, I do have a bad shoulder and I can't reach it all the way forwards some days. I also know from experience that having a lighter rifle reduces the odds that I'll feel like I've been beaten in the back with a hammer after a day of training. If I were to just say something like "I don't buy hbar barreled rifles" with no background information who benefits from that? Nobody. If I leave out my background it's worthless noise. When I bring my experience into the conversation then everyone understand why I feel the way I do and also whether or not my preferences are relevant to the choices that they are making.
I disagree. It is good for people to explain their views because the diversity of experiences is valuable, even if not everyone is a tier-one Osama-killer.
For example, I do have a bad shoulder and I can't reach it all the way forwards some days. I also know from experience that having a lighter rifle reduces the odds that I'll feel like I've been beaten in the back with a hammer after a day of training. If I were to just say something like "I don't buy hbar barreled rifles" with no background information who benefits from that? Nobody. If I leave out my background it's worthless noise. When I bring my experience into the conversation then everyone understand why I feel the way I do and also whether or not my preferences are relevant to the choices that they are making.
This. Opinions backed with supporting info is how we grow. It's what makes molons posts so valuable.
I'm not a great shooter, but I feel I'm decent, especially with pistol because I read and watched experts who shared the WHY and tailored pieces from many people to find what works best for me.
That being the case, we should only see about 5-6 people ever posting on this site about anything.
I think he meant unless that opinion is politely challenged.
You can't just "agree" with a comment that most know to be outside the typically accepted SME opinion, and not expect to be asked why/how you came to that conclusion. Not here, anyway. You CAN however bail. Which apparently he chose to do.
I have three ARs...my AR10 is by far the most comfortable for me to shoot because I can get farther out on the rail with my support hand. It's a longer rifle.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Dude, this thread has gotten massively derailed smh.
To get is somewhat back on topic, does anyone have experience with BCM's medium weight enhanced barrel? I really like the profile of the elw barrels but would prefer a barrel with more meat on it. I've been trying to decide between this barrel and BA's Hanson barrel. Thanks.
Vegasshooter
06-17-16, 13:02
Back on topic, since we took a detour, I'd go with the lightest weight in what you're looking for. When I built my wife's rifle, I used a BCM ELW fluted. She's not very big, and swinging a heavy barrel out there wasn't as fast for her. The barrel has been amazing. I find myself wanting to shoot it since it's so light and fast target to target. It drives great on a steel plate rack and it's easier to stop it instead of swinging past the target and having to correct. For the price of barrels vs ammo, I'm not concerned with it not lasting. If I get 10,000 rounds out of it, it costs me .03 cents a shot. Three shots for a penny! Mission always drives gear. If the mission is a light, fast, easy to carry barrel, go for it. It's not hammer forged, but it's the right steel, and it does what I built the gun to do very, very well.
I hope this helps a little bit.
BTW, I have numerous other rifles. My "main" shooter is my Noveske 16" match barrel, intermediate length gas system with a Razor 1-6. This is my 3 gun AR. I love it and it's an amazing rifle. It isn't as fast and handy as my wife's ELW BCM though. Just a point of comparison.
Dude, this thread has gotten massively derailed smh.
To get is somewhat back on topic, does anyone have experience with BCM's medium weight enhanced barrel? I really like the profile of the elw barrels but would prefer a barrel with more meat on it. I've been trying to decide between this barrel and BA's Hanson barrel. Thanks.
If you prefer a slightly heavier barrel with a *little* more meat on it, that is a little more durable for harder use or for use with a suppressor, then IMHO this weight BA Hanson profile barrels are some one of the best overall profiles ever made for the AR.
http://ballisticadvantage.com/16-inch-556-hanson-mid-cmv-performance-barrel.html
http://ballisticadvantage.com/14-5-inch-556-hanson-mid-cmv-performance-barrel.html
The Good, The Bad and The Ugly: an M4C Style Guide.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?70019-The-Good-The-Bad-and-The-Ugly-an-M4C-Style-Guide
The Value of Opinions.
The Good: One of M4C's strengths is that we acknowledge that not all opinions are created equal. To this end, we have attempted to make the Subject Matter Experts and Industry Professionals in our midst more visible, so you know when you are engaging with a heavy hitter. We also have many, many regular members who are capable of dispensing very sound advice.
The Bad: If you honestly have no first-hand experience with the topic at hand, either learn to say nothing at all, or be very up-front about your limitations. Stay in your lane, and think twice about posting something that you believe to be true only because you read about it on the internet, or saw it in a magazine. You will earn far more respect by asking an intelligent question than by dispensing a foolish answer.
The Ugly: Knowledgeable members are generally quick to throw the BS flag when it is warranted, and post-counts may not be especially useful here, as some of the most competent members on M4C have relatively low post counts. You may well discover that there is more wisdom in the opinion of a 2006 member with 400 posts than in that of a 2010 member with 1,400. Pay attention, and treat it as a learning opportunity should you find your views being actively challenged. (There is an associated lesson here with respect to our stance on post-whoring, but that should probably go without saying.)
deleted...don't want to distract from original topic.
If you prefer a slightly heavier barrel with a *little* more meat on it, that is a little more durable for harder use or for use with a suppressor, then IMHO this weight BA Hanson profile barrels are some one of the best overall profiles ever made for the AR.
http://ballisticadvantage.com/16-inch-556-hanson-mid-cmv-performance-barrel.html
http://ballisticadvantage.com/14-5-inch-556-hanson-mid-cmv-performance-barrel.html
Do you have experience with BA barrels? How did they shoot?
Back on topic, IMHO, I think most people never see the benefit of a BHF/CHF barrel over the standard chrome lined. They pay extra for it and never shoot it enough to see the advantage or don't use the right ammo/optics. Example being using iron sights or red dot so they do not see the accuracy advantages or not heating the barrel with full auto so they will not see the "extended life" of the hammered forged.
Again it just my opinion. Buy which ever one you want. I have both types and can't tell a difference.
ContractSoldier
06-18-16, 00:34
Quick question. I know there's many things that determine the life span of a barrel, but what would be the average life span for a non cold hammer forged barrel?
I'm talking Bravo Company USA quality barrels.
Quick question. I know there's many things that determine the life span of a barrel, but what would be the average life span for a non cold hammer forged barrel?
I'm talking Bravo Company USA quality barrels.
Barrels with some full auto fire could start key holing around 10 thousand and barrels with mild firing schedules could last 30 thousand. Most people will never need to replace a barrel on an AR, 223 caliber. I guess would be 15-20 thousand before accuracy starts suffering(.mil accuracy, not match accuracy). Of course some idiots shoot out a barrel in 1-2 thousand rounds in full auto on YouTube.
Quick question. I know there's many things that determine the life span of a barrel, but what would be the average life span for a non cold hammer forged barrel?
I'm talking Bravo Company USA quality barrels.
If you're not shooting full auto, it doesn't matter. And even if you are, it likely won't matter.
Both will be at least 10,000 rds, likely around 25,000 or more.
At that number, the cost and time it takes to swap a barrel are tiny compared to the cost of ammo. And if there is a measurable difference, it's not massive. M4A1s do not have CHF barrels, and they are all by definition fully automatic weapons.
Quick question. I know there's many things that determine the life span of a barrel, but what would be the average life span for a non cold hammer forged barrel?
I'm talking Bravo Company USA quality barrels.
Very big DEPENDS.
What type of ammunition? Hot propellants and high pressure loads lead to shorter barrel life. Studies show that exclusive use of relatively cool W846 can result in twice the life over a hot extruded propellant.
Average rate of fire and how many rounds expended per session at that ROF.
And, it depends on your definition of "worn-out". There are three reasons a barrel wears-out. One is velocity loss, another is stability loss, the third in accuracy loss.
Most people don't notice velocity loss, because they don't regularly chronograph known velocity loads and compare, after several thousands rounds just rezero to the new, lower, velocity. Velocity loss is caused by gas escaping around the bullet as the throat wears larger. The military criteria for a worn out barrel is a loss of 200 fps.
Stability loss and accuracy loss are what people notice. Stability loss (keyholing) is due to the muzzle end of the barrel eroding out so that the rifling loses grip on the projectile before reaching full RPM. The military definition of keyholing is 20% of the projectiles exhibit 15 degrees yaw at 1000 inches from the muzzle, this will happen long before you start to see sideways holes in the target. Normally, the muzzle wearing to the point of stability loss occurs long after a serious loss of velocity has occurred.
Accuracy loss is primarily caused by the same wear as velocity loss, erosion of the throat, as the throat erodes the bullet's entry into the rifling becomes variable, this will always occur first. And for match shooters is the primary cause for getting a new barrel. With some calibers, it can happen in a less than 2 thousand rounds, depending on propellant choice.
Fluting neither adds rigidity, nor aids in heat dissipation.
The only thing that adds rigidity is additional material. When you flute a barrel and remove additional support to the bore over the fluted area those parts of the bore wear faster and are more subject to failure under a high volume of fire.
Fluting is simply an expensive cosmetic operation that reduces the accuracy and useful life of the barrel. If you want a light barrel then get a lighter profile. If you want sustained fire, or better groups get a thicker barrel. If you want alot of heat dissipation get a heat sink like JP enterprises makes.
How can increasing surface area not increase heat dissipation? Explain, please.
How can increasing surface area not increase heat dissipation? Explain, please.
Fluting is only a minor surface area increase, especially in thin barrels. Any increase will aid heat dissipation, but it's likely so minor that it doesn't matter much in the real world.
Fluting is only a minor surface area increase, especially in thin barrels. Any increase will aid heat dissipation, but it's likely so minor that it doesn't matter much in the real world.
Let's look at this. Take a standard rifle length gas system HBAR barrel with a constant 1" diameter to the gas block. The surface area from the extension flange to the gas block is easily calculated.
A = 2πrh
With:
r = the radius of the barrel (.5")
h = length from the flange to the gas block (12.125").
So, the area under the hand guard is 38 square inches.
Now, if we cut one slot .25 inch wide and .15 inches deep and 10 inches long in the barrel, the top of the slot (where material was removed) and the bottom of the slot are very, very close to the same area, so we shall assume that they are, we will also not bother the ends but remember that they will just add to the additional area.
We will just add the area of the sides of the slots to the area of the barrel. A slot will add (.15 x 10) x 2], or 3 square inches.
If we have six slots we have added 18 square inches to the surface area, that an increase of 47%.
That is not a minor increase in surface area.
Not only that, who's using a "thin barrel" to flute anyway?
Not only that, who's using a "thin barrel" to flute anyway?
Well, I have to note that some people do use fluting just for its aesthetic value.
For example, spiral fluting adds almost no additional stiffness over a barrel of similar weight.
jackblack73
06-18-16, 18:10
Not only that, who's using a "thin barrel" to flute anyway?
BCM, for one.
I guess I should say for anything intended beyond aesthetics.
Microadventure
06-18-16, 18:36
it appears to me that different people using the same term in different ways:
When I hear fluted barrel, I think: take two identical barrels. mill grooves in one. that one is fluted.
Some people see: take one standard issue barrel, take one bull barrel, mill grooves in the bull barrel that reduce the diameter of the bull barrel to that of the standard barrel at the bottom of the grooves. that is a fluted barrel in the mind of some posters here.
if you don't specify the definition you are using, your reasoning and the reasoning of people who use the other definition must inherently clash.
it appears to me that different people using the same term in different ways:
When I hear fluted barrel, I think: take two identical barrels. mill grooves in one. that one is fluted.
Some people see: take one standard issue barrel, take one bull barrel, mill grooves in the bull barrel that reduce the diameter of the bull barrel to that of the standard barrel at the bottom of the grooves. that is a fluted barrel in the mind of some posters here.
if you don't specify the definition you are using, your reasoning and the reasoning of people who use the other definition must inherently clash.
Flute - to make longitudinal grooves or furrows in something.
Both the examples you have given are, by definition, fluted barrels.
If you actually read all the posts, qualifiers like "for the same weight", and "depends" are used rather extensively.
In your examples, the two identical barrels, one set fluted, one set not the fluted, both of the fluted barrels will be quite a bit lighter than their mate. The fluted bull barrel will be stiffer than the standard barrel, and much stiffer than the fluted standard barrel. (assuming straight flutes)
No one has ever said that cutting longitudinal furrows in any barrel will somehow make it stiffer than it was before.....it will be stiffer than an unfluted barrel of the same weight, and a barrel of the same weight as the fluted barrel will have to have a smaller outside diameter than the largest diameter of the fluted barrel...
EDIT: Fluting will always increase the surface area, how much depends on how deep the flutes are and how many there are.
I have two hammer forged barrels, 1 FN 20 inch and 1 BCM ELW, and two regular Colt 6920 barrels. I cant tell the difference between them other than the length and profile. My Colt barrels (well technically one is my duty weapon so not really MINE) have been more accurate than they should be. The FN barrel hasnt been shot for groups yet but is also showing itself to the pretty darn accurate as well. The BCM hasnt been shot for groups either but it's been a point and hit barrel for me so Im not complaining.
I believe IraqGunz 11.5 inch BCM with a standard barrel has something like 18k rounds through it and it's still going strong. For my next build the fact that the barrel is hammer forged is not going to be a deciding factor for me. If the barrel I find is hammer forged... cool. If not... dont care.
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