View Full Version : Man fatally shot in OH CCW class . . .
Moose-Knuckle
06-19-16, 04:03
Man Fatally Shot in Accident During Class at Ohio Gun Shop
Officials say a man has been fatally shot in an apparent accident during a concealed carry class at a gun shop in Ohio.
The Clermont County sheriff says the unidentified man was shot in the neck around 1 p.m. Saturday and died at the scene. There were about 10 people in the concealed carry class when the shooting occurred at KayJay Gun Shop in Amelia, about 20 miles east of Cincinnati.
According to the gun shop's website, the class taught basic pistol safety, gave attendees range time and reviewed Ohio's gun laws.
Clermont County Sheriff A.J. Rodenberg wouldn't provide additional details about the shooting Saturday afternoon.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/man-fatally-shot-accident-class-ohio-gun-shop-39962177?yptr=yahoo
Not much information so far, I'd like to know if the person who broke all of Col. Cooper's rules and more than likely the shop's rules as well was a student or an employee.
Never been in a class where students were allowed to handle their handguns in a classroom setting, range only. My last renewal we had "that guy" in attendance. During the qual portion of the class while out on the range they finally told him to leave. Guy brought his gun in a disposable plastic shopping bag and some cheap nylon zipper case. Wrong caliber of ammo for his own handgun and had to delay the class on the firing line while he went into the store to purchase an overpriced box of fmjs. Flagged people, wouldn't not leave muzzle pointed down range, etc.
Be careful out there gents . . .
This is a tragic incident. Thank you for sharing it. I will make a copy of the news article for future reference when I am asked to teach more handgun classes. Has this particular shop had safety issues in the past or was this an isolated incident?
In courses I have conducted or assisted with teaching some students, very few, take exception to strong emphasis on safety. Grumbling about safety is acceptable, as long a person follows the safety rules. If a person is so vocal about course emphasis on safety they disrupt a class, they are told to leave. If anyone flags another person with their muzzle, they are told to leave and never come back.
The same rules would apply if we had a group of people handling chainsaws in a lumberjack 101 class.
This is a tragic incident and something we can all learn from, whether we are a student, instructor or observer.
A little more details on Foxnews.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/19/ohio-gun-shop-owner-killed-during-concealed-carry-class.html?intcmp=hpbt4
There were about 10 people in the concealed carry class in a room adjacent to where Baker was sitting, according to the Enquirer.
A class participant discharged a handgun while practicing weapon malfunction drills, the paper reported.
The bullet passed through a wall and struck Baker.
I'm confused. Here is how I read and interpret the event:
The store owner, Mr. Baker, was sitting in a different room than where the class was being conducted.
The malfunction clearance training was done with live ammo. Very bad juju, very bad. You never let anybody in a basic class at a gun store handle live ammo anywhere close to the gun. Have they ever heard of snap caps or dummy rounds?
Said bullet went through wall and hit Baker.
Sheesh......what a bad deal.
Sounds like it was "that guy" teaching if they were using live rounds INDOORS teaching malf. drills at a BASIC class. Jeez....
Have they changed something? There damned sure weren't any "drills" going on when I took the class 11 years ago. It was a 50 round CoF and if you malf'd the pistol went to the rug and you backed off the line.
Wtf?!?
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Why on earth would anyone allow live rounds in the classroom for a firearm handling exercise?
Very bad idea.
Linebacker
06-19-16, 12:32
Have they changed something? There damned sure weren't any "drills" going on when I took the class 11 years ago. It was a 50 round CoF and if you malf'd the pistol went to the rug and you backed off the line.
Wtf?!?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I totally agree. That is normaly a skill taught after an instructor has worked with the student before. Way before.
dwhitehorne
06-19-16, 12:54
Why on earth would anyone allow live rounds in the classroom for a firearm handling exercise?
Very bad idea.
Very easy. I could see students who had live ammo on them when they came in the building. Probably had to clear everything for the class and were checked. Malfunction drills tell me someone got a live round (could have been loose in a pocket) in with some dummy ammo they were given in class and probably put in their pocket. A few years ago FLETC, the most sterile environment I can think of, found a live round in with dummy ammo in a class. Experienced people roll there eyes at the safety briefing but these things continue to happen. Did another thread say it was the store owner hit? Wow David
Very easy. I could see students who had live ammo on them when they came in the building. Probably had to clear everything for the class and were checked. Malfunction drills tell me someone got a live round (could have been loose in a pocket) in with some dummy ammo they were given in class and probably put in their pocket. A few years ago FLETC, the most sterile environment I can think of, found a live round in with dummy ammo in a class. Experienced people roll there eyes at the safety briefing but these things continue to happen. Did another thread say it was the store owner hit? Wow David
Sterile yes. But when your double timing between range, ORT, etc those BDU pockets can get over looked pretty easy. Even if your wanding everyone down. Thankfully live ammo never turned up when I went through but we had guys miss spent casings twice from what I remember.
Vigilance is key to be certain.
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At my class, the only handling we did was on blue guns unail range time. Malfunction drills in a basic pistol course? Odd.
MountainRaven
06-19-16, 14:21
I'm wondering if the "instructor" wasn't an actual certified instructor and was just filling in for the certified instructor (who would then have signed their certificates, &c.).
In my first General Pistol class, we did basic malfunction drills with live ammo toward the end of day two. We were on the range, on the line, all guns pointed downrange at paper targets, with half a dozen instructors for 12 students on the line. Tap, rack and roll. We sent more time on the subject in subsequent classes. No live ammo is/was allowed in the classroom at any time. Ever.
I'm always sad to see things like this. Even though we might sometimes argue amongst ourselves, I view everyone in the gun community as an ally. Sad to see an ally die because of a stupid, preventable, negligent discharge.
May he rest in peace.
Do any of us know the layout of the "classroom"? Was this a gun store with a range attached? If it was a range attached situation, I can certainly see a safety violation killing someone.
In my CCW class here in Alaska we also had a one day basic pistol class. We did cover malfunctions and fired over 200 rounds. Malfunctions were covered one on one with the instructor until everyone got it, then as a group.
Moose-Knuckle
06-20-16, 02:41
A little more details on Foxnews.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/19/ohio-gun-shop-owner-killed-during-concealed-carry-class.html?intcmp=hpbt4
There were about 10 people in the concealed carry class in a room adjacent to where Baker was sitting, according to the Enquirer.
A class participant discharged a handgun while practicing weapon malfunction drills, the paper reported.
The bullet passed through a wall and struck Baker.
I'm confused. Here is how I read and interpret the event:
The store owner, Mr. Baker, was sitting in a different room than where the class was being conducted.
The malfunction clearance training was done with live ammo. Very bad juju, very bad. You never let anybody in a basic class at a gun store handle live ammo anywhere close to the gun. Have they ever heard of snap caps or dummy rounds?
Said bullet went through wall and hit Baker.
Thanks for posting that, answered a few of my questions.
I have taken CCW classes at two different places that had a range, store front, and classrooms all under one roof. Live ammo should never be allowed in classroom settings and probably should restrict to only blue guns for training purposes because, well people.
http://m.fox19.com/fox19/db_347473/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=GCmvvA4z
Man Accidentally Shot, Killed During Concealed Carry Class Identified as Shop Owner
FOX19 Digital Media Staff
Jun 19, 2016 07:49 AM
AMELIA, OH (FOX19) - The owner of a gun shop was accidentally shot and killed during a concealed carry class in Amelia, the Clermont County Sheriff's Office confirms.
Crews responded to the the Kay Jay Gun Shop on Lindale-Mt. Holly Rd. around 1 p.m. on Saturday for reports of a shooting.
Clermont County Sheriff A.J. Rodenberg said James E. Baker, 64, was shot in the neck after a class participant discharged a handgun while practicing weapon malfunction drills, striking Baker who was sitting in an adjacent room.
Investigators said efforts to resuscitate Baker were unsuccessful and he was pronounced dead at the scene.
The investigation remains ongoing and the incident will be reviewed with the prosecutor's office.
If only there were some kind of standardized rules that could prevent such incidents. Perhaps instead of focusing on malfunction drills, they should have spent more time on things like:
All weapons are always loaded, always.
Never allow your muzzle to cover something you aren't willing to destroy.
Keep fingers off the trigger unless you intend to fire.
Be sure of the target and of what is beyond it.
Seems like one or more people violated one or more of the rules. This wasn't an accident. The shooter had to be pointing at the instructor in order to hit him, his finger had to be on the trigger in order to discharge the weapon. Then there is the problem that that shooter was obviously not pointed downrange but at a wall and he was unsure what was beyond it.
I have taught a few people to shoot. I won't even give them ****ing ammo until they can quote to me the four rules of gun safety in a way that shows they understand what they are saying.
I don't think I've ever gotten anyone to the point I need to teach them malfunction drills. I'm usually too busy with the four basic rules of gun safety and basic stance and marksmanship.
This is the problem with everybody thinking they need to know Navy SEAL shit. They buy a gun, and in most cases don't know the first damn thing about anything. Then they go out and find the most advanced class they can find so they can get "the most training for their money" when their time would be better spent learning how to draw and sight a target SAFELY rather than worry about ninja shit.
Nothing wrong with malfunction drills or unconventional shooting positions once a person has MASTERED the basics. And every so often somebody has to die to demonstrate the point.
Moose-Knuckle
06-20-16, 03:24
I started a thread yesterday on it here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?185331-Man-fatally-shot-in-OH-CCW-class
Mods could you gents merge Steyr's into mine?
Averageman
06-20-16, 07:50
I was in a retail store this weekend purchasing some items and looking at a couple of dies.
I got flagged pretty bad by someone twenty feet away. I might not have noticed, but the whole laser to the eye thing made it a bit obvious.
To say it gets a bit annoying to deal with people is a bit of an understatement. It would seem the older I get the less inclined I am to suffer the foolishness of others.
I started a thread yesterday on it here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?185331-Man-fatally-shot-in-OH-CCW-class
Mods could you gents merge Steyr's into mine?
Done.
Very easy. I could see students who had live ammo on them when they came in the building. Probably had to clear everything for the class and were checked. Malfunction drills tell me someone got a live round (could have been loose in a pocket) in with some dummy ammo they were given in class and probably put in their pocket. A few years ago FLETC, the most sterile environment I can think of, found a live round in with dummy ammo in a class. Experienced people roll there eyes at the safety briefing but these things continue to happen. Did another thread say it was the store owner hit? Wow David
Nothing is perfect, but you can minimize the chance that someone will have a live round when they are running dry fire drills. Before running drills without ammunition, we ask everyone to check their bags, equipment and pockets multiple times for live ammunition. I recall a student asking in a curt voice "why are we doing all of this? When was the last time you had a live round go off in a classroom?" The answer was never, not yet anyway, and we want to do everything possible to maintain never.
During the lecture portion of a class we really hammer on not pointing a weapon or dry firing at anything that will not stop the projectile. If you are dry firing at a target posted on a wall, what is on the other side of it? I had a former student contact me by telephone and relate a dry fire incident. He said he was about to dry fire in his garage and remembered instructors hammering on not pointing an unloaded firearm at a wall when you don't know what is on the other side or there is a person on the other side. He told me his wife was in the family room on the other side of an inside wall, so he decided to attach a target to an outside wall. He had ammunition in the room and at some point chambered a live round and lodged a projectile in an outside wall.
Usually, when something bad happens it is because people are in a rush to get going or get too comfortable and skip steps they would normally take to ensure safety.
No training situation is perfect, but we as trainers can minimize the chances for injury or death.
This is sad and avoidable
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-20-16, 16:28
Considering the propensity of new shooters to limp wrist auto-loaders, I think training on malfunctions isn't a bad idea with new shooters. In the right setting and re-enforcing the importance of the rules are key.
Considering the propensity of new shooters to limp wrist auto-loaders, I think training on malfunctions isn't a bad idea with new shooters. In the right setting and re-enforcing the importance of the rules are key.
I sorta disagree.
While things like magazine changes during engagements, malfunction drills, weak side shooting and a dozen other things are all valuable defensive skills, I don't think they should be the focus of a "new shooter."
I think all of those things should be reserved until somebody can consistently fire their weapon on target while observing and abiding by all four of the basic rules of gun safety. Until you can do that, you shouldn't be trying to do anything else. Keep in mind that most "new shooters" can accomplish that standard in a couple weeks.
The problem is when you are trying to learn those things on the first or second night of shooting your new gun for the first time, the simple / obvious stuff like the "four rules of gun safety" often takes a back seat to the more complicated skills like malfunction drills.
I wasn't there but I'd bet dollars to donuts that everyone in the room was taught the four rules of gun safety and probably even had to take a written test to demonstrate they understood all of them. But as soon as a "new shooter" starts working on something like getting his malfunction drills to be second nature, as often as not he is no longer paying attention to where his weapon is pointed and not being terribly focused on trigger finger discipline.
I've watched a lot of guys in police academies (1980s to 90s) screw up week one stuff when they got into week three. You had to keep hammering it back into them because even though they did it correctly for two weeks, when you give them something else to do many of them promptly forgot everything they had been shown up to that point.
We need to remember that a lot of people didn't grow up with guns, they haven't been around them since they were 12 years old. They didn't go hunting with their older brother or father. There are a lot of adults who when they buy a new gun and take a gun safety class, they have never fired a guy before at all. They think they are focused on the most important thing they should be doing, but they have no idea what is actually the most important thing.
It sounds almost condescending when somebody at a "training class" reminds everyone "but most important of all...make sure you don't shoot somebody and watch your muzzle / trigger discipline." But they say that for a reason, sometimes people with guns learning new stuff tunnel vision and they temporarily forget "muzzle / trigger discipline." I've even been with guys who had some military or law enforcement background who got reminded "watch your muzzle" / "trigger finger" in a few firearm courses.
I've even had a few guys tell me to "mind your muzzle" when they thought I was transgressing into "grey areas" while running a course. Didn't bother me a bit even though I was in the lines and was actually paying attention, I'd rather be reminded than to be in a situation where somebody was allowed to get careless.
I sorta disagree.
While things like magazine changes during engagements, malfunction drills, weak side shooting and a dozen other things are all valuable defensive skills, I don't think they should be the focus of a "new shooter."
I think all of those things should be reserved until somebody can consistently fire their weapon on target while observing and abiding by all four of the basic rules of gun safety. Until you can do that, you shouldn't be trying to do anything else. Keep in mind that most "new shooters" can accomplish that standard in a couple weeks.
The problem is when you are trying to learn those things on the first or second night of shooting your new gun for the first time, the simple / obvious stuff like the "four rules of gun safety" often takes a back seat to the more complicated skills like malfunction drills.
I wasn't there but I'd bet dollars to donuts that everyone in the room was taught the four rules of gun safety and probably even had to take a written test to demonstrate they understood all of them. But as soon as a "new shooter" starts working on something like getting his malfunction drills to be second nature, as often as not he is no longer paying attention to where his weapon is pointed and not being terribly focused on trigger finger discipline.
I've watched a lot of guys in police academies (1980s to 90s) screw up week one stuff when they got into week three. You had to keep hammering it back into them because even though they did it correctly for two weeks, when you give them something else to do many of them promptly forgot everything they had been shown up to that point.
We need to remember that a lot of people didn't grow up with guns, they haven't been around them since they were 12 years old. They didn't go hunting with their older brother or father. There are a lot of adults who when they buy a new gun and take a gun safety class, they have never fired a guy before at all. They think they are focused on the most important thing they should be doing, but they have no idea what is actually the most important thing.
It sounds almost condescending when somebody at a "training class" reminds everyone "but most important of all...make sure you don't shoot somebody and watch your muzzle / trigger discipline." But they say that for a reason, sometimes people with guns learning new stuff tunnel vision and they temporarily forget "muzzle / trigger discipline." I've even been with guys who had some military or law enforcement background who got reminded "watch your muzzle" / "trigger finger" in a few firearm courses.
I've even had a few guys tell me to "mind your muzzle" when they thought I was transgressing into "grey areas" while running a course. Didn't bother me a bit even though I was in the lines and was actually paying attention, I'd rather be reminded than to be in a situation where somebody was allowed to get careless.
100000+ to this. Active multi tasking IMO is a physical impossibility. By active I mean the human brain having to consciously focus on multiple tasks. Take reading 2 books simultaneously. You will be able to do it if you switch back and forth from book 1 to book 2 at some interval. The brain can do passive multi tasking. Say walking and reading a book. Get on a treadmill and you can walk for hours without face planting while reading a book. No problem. Walking is second nature and for he most part doesn't require active engagement. It's autonomous. See what happens when you try to read a book while walking an obstacle course aka texting dummy walks into wall. What's the difference and why did you fail? It wasn't cause yo don't now how to walk, but rather because you were trying to do 2 things that require active thought processes simultaneously.
Until new shooters can autonomously execute the 4 rules introduction of new active skills needs to be minimized or tightly controlled. Sadly in this instance it wasn't done in a controlled enough manner and someone died.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-21-16, 13:57
OK, so we let people work their way thru their malfunctions without any oversight or instruction on how to clear it- and you think that will go better than if you instructed them? Are they more or less likely to screw up then? I never thought of Tap,rack,bang as ninja level training.
The guy didn't die because they were going over malf drills. He died because someone had ammo where it shouldn't be while pointing a gun in the wrong direction. I'm not saying that the second trigger pull needs to be a malf drill, just that if you are going to be letting people out in the wild- or the gun range- that they have some familiarity with when things don't go bang.
OK, so we let people work their way thru their malfunctions without any oversight or instruction on how to clear it- and you think that will go better than if you instructed them? Are they more or less likely to screw up then? I never thought of Tap,rack,bang as ninja level training.
The guy didn't die because they were going over malf drills. He died because someone had ammo where it shouldn't be while pointing a gun in the wrong direction. I'm not saying that the second trigger pull needs to be a malf drill, just that if you are going to be letting people out in the wild- or the gun range- that they have some familiarity with when things don't go bang.
Again. ALL GUNS are ALWAYS loaded.
You don't create a "no ammo" environment so you can safely do malf. drills. That is so counter productive I don't know where to start. Also if this was a "new shooter" CCW course, the instructor and about six other guys should have been in the same room to INTERVENE the moment somebody starts to wander out of their lane and violate one of the four basic rules.
I also think you are again overestimating the capacities of the typical "new shooter." Let's not forget in most place you simply have to demonstrate that you can fire the weapon and you get your CCW. You are now "out in the wild" so to speak with virtually NO training beyond the class you took to pass the test to apply for your CCW and for most people all of that information has been forgotten.
I'd be 75% of those walking around with a CCW have never taken a CCW class. So we already have people "out in the wild" who probably cannot tell you the four rules of gun safety from memory let alone actively employ them in everything they do. This is a consequence of not wanting to create "qualifiers" that can be used to deny people a carry permit or the right to purchase a firearm.
So a basic CCW course should be like an intro "gun safety / hunting" course. It should be mostly about the four rules of gun safety and giving students scenarios where they have to think about and consider the best way to apply those four rules to prevent accidents. Just like "gun safety / hunting" don't go into things like brass checking to make sure you have a round in the chamber before taking your shot, CCW oriented classes for "new shooters" really shouldn't be getting into malfunction drills.
These are "Don't shoot yourself or anyone else that you didn't intend to shoot" 101 classes for people who have a new gun and a new carry permit. That is really all they should be focused on.
When they complete that class, they should be strongly encouraged to take CCW 102 "Defensive shooting fundamentals" where things like malfunction drills, magazines changes and shooting while moving can be covered.
In a perfect world there would be something like 5 levels of progressive firearms training that EVERYONE with a CCW would take and everyone would know the same basic stuff and apply it all the time. But this isn't a perfect world and I think the most important things a "new shooter" should be focused on are the things that prevent him from unintentionally firing his weapon and making sure he doesn't unintentionally shoot himself or someone else.
Again, this was completely preventable. But he failed to fully learn and be able to apply the four rules of gun safety and violated three of them because he was focused on malfunction drills. It really is a walk before you run thing. Once a student is solid in the four rules of gun safety and you can no longer steer them into a violation of the four basic rules, then by all means show them malfunction drills. It's not ninja stuff, but it's also not for anyone that cannot demonstrate complete mastery and application of the four basic rules of gun safety.
This is sad and avoidable
That's it in a nut shell.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-21-16, 18:29
From the gun shops website.
https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/dimension=1180x10000:format=jpg/path/sdb12bdeea23ffc96/image/i16697ea02a52b3aa/version/1461883806/image.jpg
Guns on the table in a class room? Not blue. Use a realistic plastic (non-blue) gun?
From the gun shops website.
https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/dimension=1180x10000:format=jpg/path/sdb12bdeea23ffc96/image/i16697ea02a52b3aa/version/1461883806/image.jpg
Guns on the table in a class room? Not blue. Use a realistic plastic (non-blue) gun? Bad form IMHO... While my CCW class had a good basic pistol class on the second day. No firearms (other than the instructor) or ammunition were allowed in the classroom during the classroom portion. There is nothing to be taught in relation to firearms handling while sitting at a table, it should all be on the range.
From the gun shops website.
https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/dimension=1180x10000:format=jpg/path/sdb12bdeea23ffc96/image/i16697ea02a52b3aa/version/1461883806/image.jpg
Guns on the table in a class room? Not blue. Use a realistic plastic (non-blue) gun?
I see a lot of DON'Ts in that picture. Starting to understand how this happened.
Moose-Knuckle
06-22-16, 02:27
From the gun shops website.
https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/dimension=1180x10000:format=jpg/path/sdb12bdeea23ffc96/image/i16697ea02a52b3aa/version/1461883806/image.jpg
Guns on the table in a class room? Not blue. Use a realistic plastic (non-blue) gun?
Geez.
Unless your in the back row you have multiple guns pointed at your back, no thanks.
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