View Full Version : Military training w/ M16/M4, semi vs. auto?
Does the US military train only aimed semi-auto fire for the M16/M4? Under what circumstances does training dictate burst/auto fire for the rifle/carbine?
If this question violates opsec in some way, I apologize in advance.
Thanks.
Outlander Systems
06-19-16, 18:03
Auto is a ****ing waste of ammo.
Auto is a ****ing waste of ammo.
Time and place. Like subguns.
Outlander Systems
06-19-16, 18:18
And SAWs.
Auto AR/M4/M16 is gayer than a bag of peckers.
ETA: MP5? Now we're talkin'.
Eurodriver
06-19-16, 18:20
This is a good question. I was a US Marine for my whole enlistment contract of 5 and a half years. We had that there M16A4 and we trained on auto all the time because Haji don't play around in the mountains of the Ghan or Al Anbar. They overwhelmed the US Army all the time and we didn't play those games so we always shot full auto. Known distance qualification, Tables 2-4. CQB. Even MOUT. Always full auto. There's quite a bit I can't talk about because of OPSEC, but the full auto thing should be okay because obviously the Taliban knows we all do it because they're all dead from it. Marines have been full auto only for almost a hundred years. We're actually called Devil Dogs because when fightin the French in the Spanish Civil War in the 1800s we shot so freakin' fast the Spanish called us "Diablo Fuego Pero" - Dogs of fire and the devil. They dropped the fire part because it wasn't PC - something you won't learn in your classroom. The full auto fire tactics were actually championed by Opha May Johnson - a war hero of the highest order; people would stand when Opha entered a room for Opha's service on Samar. The reason Marines were the first to begin using full auto exclusively was because we had leather neck protectors that allowed the brass not to get stuck in our collars and burn us - the other services never adopted this and to this day the Army, Navy, and Air Force are referred to as "Unleather Necks" because of their inability to absorb the scalding punishment of machine gun heated brass. It's really not something I'm proud of, and if you weren't there you'd never understand what it was like but there were plenty of times we had this crazy guy Backey Poller (Because his back was huge from doing pullups) who would tell us to fire full auto in every direction because that way we couldn't miss. Unfortunately, we missed a lot that way because Marines were too busy sexting lady boys, but Backey Poller had eleven Navy Crosses from service as far back as the Indian Wars with Samuel Nicholson and Archibald Henderson. I don't think they had full auto weapons at that time but they were certainly wishing they did. That's why the quatrefoil was introduced on USMC Officer's trousers. They wanted to make a mark to an ancient Indian goddess of firepower superiority whos name was "Lcwad tebfam atre abfacc" In honor of lcwad tebfam atre abfacc's service to our Corps we developed the USMC Rifle Squad's mission around her name - Locate counterfeit weapons and destroy the embankment by familiar antics. Marines are to readily embark at barracks for a civilian contractor" Interestingly enough, speaking of barracks, the full auto fire is so intense and the recoil so powerful that we got our yellow blood stripe on our blouses in honor of Clifton B Cates, who, in the Great War of Soviet Oppression stated:
I have only 2 men left out of my company and 20 out of other companies. We need support but it is almost suicidal to try to get here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant artillery barrage is upon us. I have no one on my left, and only a few on my right. I will hold.
Hope that helps. Semper Fidelicks.
All that strange voodoo bullshit Euro said
Do Whaaaa?
:p
Dunno about the military but like SBR carbines were, at times, taught with a similar rigor of the MP5. Point towards COM or the whole "Aim at bellybutton and ride a bit" deal Ideally no more than a 4 or 5 round burst. But with the sheer muzzle velocity if 5.56 and 53 or 55gr ammo it seemed rather unnecessary compared to 9mm.
This is like CQB, like room distance or less.
But for a 20" or 16" barrel rifle, yeh, pretty lame. Plus it's not good for the gas tube to just be retard dumping.
I dare say that guys in Vietnam doing retard dumps over and over did them no favors in the early days of draftee meets high tech gas operated rifle.
If you can work a trigger and keep a good sight alignment then you don't really need a third setting.
I said "need", if you want one, hey why not?
Outlander Systems
06-19-16, 18:39
Get the **** outta here lol
This is a good question. I was a US Marine for my whole enlistment contract of 5 and a half years. We had that there M16A4 and we trained on auto all the time because Haji don't play around in the mountains of the Ghan or Al Anbar. They overwhelmed the US Army all the time and we didn't play those games so we always shot full auto. Known distance qualification, Tables 2-4. CQB. Even MOUT. Always full auto. There's quite a bit I can't talk about because of OPSEC, but the full auto thing should be okay because obviously the Taliban knows we all do it because they're all dead from it. Marines have been full auto only for almost a hundred years. We're actually called Devil Dogs because when fightin the French in the Spanish Civil War in the 1800s we shot so freakin' fast the Spanish called us "Diablo Fuego Pero" - Dogs of fire and the devil. They dropped the fire part because it wasn't PC - something you won't learn in your classroom. The full auto fire tactics were actually championed by Opha May Johnson - a war hero of the highest order; people would stand when Opha entered a room for Opha's service on Samar. The reason Marines were the first to begin using full auto exclusively was because we had leather neck protectors that allowed the brass not to get stuck in our collars and burn us - the other services never adopted this and to this day the Army, Navy, and Air Force are referred to as "Unleather Necks" because of their inability to absorb the scalding punishment of machine gun heated brass. It's really not something I'm proud of, and if you weren't there you'd never understand what it was like but there were plenty of times we had this crazy guy Backey Poller (Because his back was huge from doing pullups) who would tell us to fire full auto in every direction because that way we couldn't miss. Unfortunately, we missed a lot that way because Marines were too busy sexting lady boys, but Backey Poller had eleven Navy Crosses from service as far back as the Indian Wars with Samuel Nicholson and Archibald Henderson. I don't think they had full auto weapons at that time but they were certainly wishing they did. That's why the quatrefoil was introduced on USMC Officer's trousers. They wanted to make a mark to an ancient Indian goddess of firepower superiority whos name was "Lcwad tebfam atre abfacc" In honor of lcwad tebfam atre abfacc's service to our Corps we developed the USMC Rifle Squad's mission around her name - Locate counterfeit weapons and destroy the embankment by familiar antics. Marines are to readily embark at barracks for a civilian contractor" Interestingly enough, speaking of barracks, the full auto fire is so intense and the recoil so powerful that we got our yellow blood stripe on our blouses in honor of Clifton B Cates, who, in the Great War of Soviet Oppression stated:
Hope that helps. Semper Fidelicks.
HOWDY This is a good question. I was a US Marine for my whole enlistment contract of 5 and a half years. We had that there M16A4 and we trained on auto all the time because Haji don't play around in the mountains of the Ghan or Al Anbar. They overwhelmed the US Army all the time and we didn't play those games so we always shot full auto. Known distance qualification, Tables 2-4. CQB. Even MOUT. Always full auto. There's quite a bit I can't talk about because of OPSEC, but the full auto thing should be okay because obviously the Taliban knows we all do it because they're all dead from it. Marines have been full auto only for almost a hundred years. We're actually called Devil Dogs because when fightin the French in the Spanish Civil War in the 1800s we shot so freakin' fast the Spanish called us "Diablo Fuego Pero" - Dogs of fire and the devil. They dropped the fire part because it wasn't PC - something you won't learn in your classroom. The full auto fire tactics were actually championed by Opha May Johnson - a war hero of the highest order; people would stand when Opha entered a room for Opha's service on Samar. The reason Marines were the first to begin using full auto exclusively was because we had leather neck protectors that allowed the brass not to get stuck in our collars and burn us - the other services never adopted this and to this day the Army, Navy, and Air Force are referred to as "Unleather Necks" because of their inability to absorb the scalding punishment of machine gun heated brass. It's really not something I'm proud of, and if you weren't there you'd never understand what it was like but there were plenty of times we had this crazy guy Backey Poller (Because his back was huge from doing pullups) who would tell us to fire full auto in every direction because that way we couldn't miss. Unfortunately, we missed a lot that way because Marines were too busy sexting lady boys, but Backey Poller had eleven Navy Crosses from service as far back as the Indian Wars with Samuel Nicholson and Archibald Henderson. I don't think they had full auto weapons at that time but they were certainly wishing they did. That's why the quatrefoil was introduced on USMC Officer's trousers. They wanted to make a mark to an ancient Indian goddess of firepower superiority whos name was "Lcwad tebfam atre abfacc" In honor of lcwad tebfam atre abfacc's service to our Corps we developed the USMC Rifle Squad's mission around her name - Locate counterfeit weapons and destroy the embankment by familiar antics. Marines are to readily embark at barracks for a civilian contractor" Interestingly enough, speaking of barracks, the full auto fire is so intense and the recoil so powerful that we got our yellow blood stripe on our blouses in honor of Clifton B Cates, who, in the Great War of Soviet Oppression stated:
Hope that helps. Semper Fidelicks.
Fixed that for you, Devil Dawg. You also left out the part about the braid on the top of the o's barracks covers, but, other than that, an extremely accurate and factual post.
26, you forgot how he was the only Devil PAWG to be badass enough to carry a Beretta 93R and wear that Army gravel pit camo.
Outlander Systems
06-19-16, 18:49
This was the exact qual we ran for BRM:
http://youtu.be/ccf5MoDwiDE
Automatic fire is best left to a belt-fed that has both the weight and slower cyclic rate to be controllable enough to be a benefit. Controlled semi-automatic fire of an M4 is significantly more effective than slamming the gas on auto and letting Jesus take the wheel. It's also not intuitive to toss a safety selector 180-degrees constantly while flowing up and down stairs, through doorways, hopping through a window, etc. Many units train differently from each other, but I don't think keeping a weapon on safe until you've acquired a sight picture is too much of a departure from most norms.
The biggest benefit to a full auto FCG in an M4 is the consistent pull weight and reset on semi compared to having the burst cam installed. That's nice.
Automatic fire is best left to a belt-fed that has both the weight and slower cyclic rate to be controllable enough to be a benefit. Controlled semi-automatic fire of an M4 is significantly more effective than slamming the gas on auto and letting Jesus take the wheel. It's also not intuitive to toss a safety selector 180-degrees constantly while flowing up and down stairs, through doorways, hopping through a window, etc. Many units train differently from each other, but I don't think keeping a weapon on safe until you've acquired a sight picture is too much of a departure from most norms.
The biggest benefit to a full auto FCG in an M4 is the consistent pull weight and reset on semi compared to having the burst cam installed. That's nice.
The biggest irony is that originally on the prototypes AUTO came before SEMI.
Then again constantly going from auto to safe on an older MP5 is no picnic either.
Per SMGs, the Colt is more comfortable and feels more "right", but if the apocalypse happened then yeah, I want an HK or a bigger caliber
Outlander Systems
06-19-16, 19:34
Dude, speaking of which, if you've ever had the displeasure of shooting a civilian MAC-10, that trigger tells you exactly what it was originally intended for. Just, yuck.
The biggest irony is that originally on the prototypes AUTO came before SEMI.
Then again constantly going from auto to safe on an older MP5 is no picnic either.
Per SMGs, the Colt is more comfortable and feels more "right", but if the apocalypse happened then yeah, I want an HK or a bigger caliber
Eurodriver
06-19-16, 19:44
Dude, speaking of which, if you've ever had the displeasure of shooting a civilian MAC-10, that trigger tells you exactly what it was originally intended for. Just, yuck.
Howdy,
We had a MAC-10 - of course full auto. See my previous post. We were going house to house, street to street in Hue before we exfilled to LVT's - Tarawa. It was brutal, but you know how it goes. The Mac-10 was my sidearm to my KAC SR-25 at Tarawa. Great place for the MAC 10 but a bit too thick in the brush for effective use of the SR25. Ended up handing it over to some guy named Lee Harvey Oswald who said he was going back to Dallas once his enlistment was up.
Paul
Outlander Systems
06-19-16, 20:21
Your buddy, Lee sounds like a douche...probably legit Marine.
Howdy,
We had a MAC-10 - of course full auto. See my previous post. We were going house to house, street to street in Hue before we exfilled to LVT's - Tarawa. It was brutal, but you know how it goes. The Mac-10 was my sidearm to my KAC SR-25 at Tarawa. Great place for the MAC 10 but a bit too thick in the brush for effective use of the SR25. Ended up handing it over to some guy named Lee Harvey Oswald who said he was going back to Dallas once his enlistment was up.
Paul
See why you gotta be bringing SR-25s in this man?
That is literally the only thing I own tgat still brings me joy!
Eurodriver
06-19-16, 20:40
SR-25s must be legit full auto. You know the guys at KAC must have done it ;)
Your buddy, Lee sounds like a douche...probably legit Marine.
You know, I totally forgot that douchebag was actually a legit Marine until I read your post!
Index for a moment: I am an avowed KAC junkie but I don't know if KAC ever did a F/A SR-25. I know they did a 14.5 SR-25 carbine and the SR-25K, but that's a good question. Have they ever done a Select Fire? If not then just to say they could?
Okay now as for Lee Harvey....dat man was cray. But not as Cray Cray as Charles Whitman who just...maaan...
If I was LHO, I woulda forgot all that commie hippie shit because that Russian bird he was married to was quite a looker in her day.
Shit, screw Texas....take yo Soviet bae and head to Cali and be a beatnik. No 1968 GCA, no sporting clause BS, and you could still buy whatever you want in Cali.
It's like that 11.22.63 show...if I had a time portal, I'd be smuggling AR-10s, AR-15s, Garands, M1 Carbines, Colt Pythons, and 1911s like a Ferguson Looter. That's after Biblically knowing all those crazy 60s birds.
See...people wanna abuse time travel with gambling, real estate, stocks, or doing dumb shit like saving politicians.
Me I just want brand new retro guns and beatnik girls.
Dude, speaking of which, if you've ever had the displeasure of shooting a civilian MAC-10, that trigger tells you exactly what it was originally intended for. Just, yuck.To be fair it does what it was intended for well. I may be in minority but do not find them displeasure to shoot.
Your buddy, Lee sounds like a douche...probably legit Marine.
:lol:
Index for a moment: I am an avowed KAC junkie but I don't know if KAC ever did a F/A SR-25. I know they did a 14.5 SR-25 carbine and the SR-25K, but that's a good question. Have they ever done a Select Fire?
It's like that 11.22.63 show...if I had a time portal, I'd be smuggling AR-10s, AR-15s, Garands, M1 Carbines, Colt Pythons, and 1911s like a Ferguson Looter.
On the full auto SR-25-> "Be a lot cooler if they did. Alright, alright, alright."
Haven't you seen the Terminator movies? Only organic stuff can go through. :o
On a serious note I was issued a M4A1 for a bit. It was fun! Especially during burst drills. But pretty much useless from past 10 yards.
Outlander Systems
06-20-16, 05:02
Granted, I was young and dumb when I had one, but by the time I got through the first mag, I thought my finger was gonna fall off.
To be fair it does what it was intended for well. I may be in minority but do not find them displeasure to shoot.
If your goal is to hijack a thread it helps to be funny, what a sad example of how this site has fallen from what it once was only a few years ago.
Outlander Systems
06-20-16, 06:53
https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fi5.ebayimg.com%2F03%2Fi%2F000%2Fd2%2F07%2Fd270_35.JPG&f=1
In Memorium
If your goal is to hijack a thread it helps to be funny, what a sad example of how this site has fallen from what it once was only a few years ago.
Pretty sure all know the evolution/mindset of the services reference full-auto vs 3-round burst.
A couple decades ago, yep, it was that long ago, I began a love affair with the MP5 and the HK International Training Division. I loved doing MP5/SubGun Operator and after I became a master instructor MP5/SubGun Instructor courses. You can get plumb surgical with controlled bursts from the MP5 platform.
All of a sudden, several years into my journey I had guys starting to show up at subgun courses with LESO 1033 M16's. Eff me running, first thing, you could no longer use metal, second thing, most guys could not reliably limit bursts to a set number of rounds, third thing (and of no real consequence), no body could do a mag dump at 5 yards into my triple sized Ace of Spade Target - suitable for lamination or framing.
I digress, as a result of all that history/experience, my thoughts are the full auto feature on rifles is primarily for suppressive fire, and the full auto capability on the subgun is for actually killing people at pistol ranges.
I know my Drill Sergeant would beat my ass if he ever found my rifle past semi. It's almost akin to carrying the rifle by the carry handle sight.
Granted, I was young and dumb when I had one, but by the time I got through the first mag, I thought my finger was gonna fall off.I misunderstood you. I meant I enjoyed them on auto. 9x19 had no recoil.
I shot one of those Masterpiece Arms guns. It was most bleh. I felt like I was shooting a steel rectangle.
I've fired, however, a MAC-10 with the two stage SIONICS suppressor and HELLS YEAH. Quiet. Very controllable. Very fun. Somehow, someday. Oh yes, it shall be mine.
Not hard to get a mental picture of some SOG dude coming up on some VC pissing on the American Flag and eating fishheads in the bush and getting BIzZZAY at all with it.
By early 1980s tech, it wasn't a bad choice for Snake Plissken at all.
But per ARs, isn't their at least one country that removed the giggle switch?
Like not jusrlt deleting sear but special orders them in military configuration, but semi only.
It could be conjectural BS, but I was told in Colt and Glock armorer that it was cheaper to make the Glock 18 and select fire Colts than it is to make the commercial ones. Despite each having a few more smaller parts.
I would imagine that they have a more streamlined assembly for the military sales and commercial sales have different assembly deals.
Like the double screw on the SP1. Why is it there?
I was also told that Saudi Arabia is littered with Glock 18s. That they get off on it. They also bling up their guns worse than Mexicans.
And if anyone has messed with a Glock 18 can attest, it is entirely easy to kill or injury yourself with one.
Learning the Glock 18 was an experience, and I passed the course but really wouldn't wanna mess with one by choice now that I know. Being told every five minutes "This will kill you. It WANTS to kill you" was very healthy. And it was not a rookie or beginners course.
So everytime I see a dipshit rent a G17 FA conversion and fart around with it on youtube I shake my head.
But Beretta 93Rs, only proffessionals medicated for your protection can handle that.
Actually, seriously, I want to shoot one someday because Mack Bolan
I know my Drill Sergeant would beat my ass if he ever found my rifle past semi. It's almost akin to carrying the rifle by the carry handle sight.
This. I can remember two times in my entire enlistment, including a year in Iraq, that I used burst. The first was learning buddy live fire in OSUT. The second was when our PSG allowed us ONE magazine on burst after 72 non-stop hours of ready up drills. We didn't stop until there wasn't a single unspent round among us.
I've fired, however, a MAC-10 with the two stage SIONICS suppressor and HELLS YEAH. Quiet. Very controllable. Very fun.Exactly! By no means light but I like the smaller sub guns. Full size, Mp5 etc I'd just rather carry a rifle. G18 now you'll have to get me more trigger time :) . Did you shoot compensated version at all?
Exactly! By no means light but I like the smaller sub guns. Full size, Mp5 etc I'd just rather carry a rifle. G18 now you'll have to get me more trigger time :) . Did you shoot compensated version at all?
I got to run a couple stick mags through a full auto modified G34 at a demo shoot one time. Talk about a ridiculous cyclic rate! Was a lot of fun though.
Not sure how this devolved into a machine pistol thread but to answer the OP’s question my military training on M16A1 full auto, many, many years ago was, I believe, designed to show the limited usefulness of it. In other words just one nighttime range trip firing prone off a bipod at 25 meter silhouettes. Stressed was burst control and how most times you were off the target after 3 shots. So the consensus is, and I agree, that 99.x% of the time aimed semi is much more effective, however the Army has decided that the fraction of a % that full auto is useful is important enough to go to general issue of the M4A1, SOCOM barrel and full not burst. So when is M16/M4A1 full auto useful, suppressive fire, breaking ambush and repelling massed assault are the times I can think of, otherwise semi is better. Since my training was so long ago and being 13E only in basic, like the OP I am also curious what is being taught today to 11B types.
Well, having shot a real g18, compensated, at glock in Smyrna, they are kind of fun. But I'm not real sure what use I would have for one, other than making brass out of cartridges.
I've shot the Mac as well, in 45acp, no less. That gun is best used suppressed. Without, it kind of sucks. Adding that big suppressor turns it into a whole other beast. Needs a better stock. Shot the later cobray version as well. Old one is better, I think.
Shot an uzi. Kind of like the Mac without the suppressor, the bullets are going "over there somewhere".
Shot a sten. Better than the uzi, as I recall, but less comfortable.
Shot the mp5, a usn seal suppressed model. Most controllable of the four.
Shot both AR and AK auto. The AK is actually controllable, if you do your part. Auto comes before semi on those.
Shot the little Mac in 380 once. Kinda neat. Even unsuppressed, not bad. Very fast.
The m1 carbine is quite controllable, but of course, is in a caliber only barely above a pistol caliber.
Sent from my SGP612 using Tapatalk
turnburglar
06-21-16, 11:31
My m4 in the force was burst fire. Used it occasionally in training and mostly for "expend all remaining ammunition". With the combat load of only 210 rounds select fire isn't very optimal.
JackFanToM
06-21-16, 11:56
This is a good question. I was a US Marine for my whole enlistment contract of 5 and a half years. We had that there M16A4 and we trained on auto all the time because Haji don't play around in the mountains of the Ghan or Al Anbar. They overwhelmed the US Army all the time and we didn't play those games so we always shot full auto. Known distance qualification, Tables 2-4. CQB. Even MOUT. Always full auto. There's quite a bit I can't talk about because of OPSEC, but the full auto thing should be okay because obviously the Taliban knows we all do it because they're all dead from it. Marines have been full auto only for almost a hundred years. We're actually called Devil Dogs because when fightin the French in the Spanish Civil War in the 1800s we shot so freakin' fast the Spanish called us "Diablo Fuego Pero" - Dogs of fire and the devil. They dropped the fire part because it wasn't PC - something you won't learn in your classroom. The full auto fire tactics were actually championed by Opha May Johnson - a war hero of the highest order; people would stand when Opha entered a room for Opha's service on Samar. The reason Marines were the first to begin using full auto exclusively was because we had leather neck protectors that allowed the brass not to get stuck in our collars and burn us - the other services never adopted this and to this day the Army, Navy, and Air Force are referred to as "Unleather Necks" because of their inability to absorb the scalding punishment of machine gun heated brass. It's really not something I'm proud of, and if you weren't there you'd never understand what it was like but there were plenty of times we had this crazy guy Backey Poller (Because his back was huge from doing pullups) who would tell us to fire full auto in every direction because that way we couldn't miss. Unfortunately, we missed a lot that way because Marines were too busy sexting lady boys, but Backey Poller had eleven Navy Crosses from service as far back as the Indian Wars with Samuel Nicholson and Archibald Henderson. I don't think they had full auto weapons at that time but they were certainly wishing they did. That's why the quatrefoil was introduced on USMC Officer's trousers. They wanted to make a mark to an ancient Indian goddess of firepower superiority whos name was "Lcwad tebfam atre abfacc" In honor of lcwad tebfam atre abfacc's service to our Corps we developed the USMC Rifle Squad's mission around her name - Locate counterfeit weapons and destroy the embankment by familiar antics. Marines are to readily embark at barracks for a civilian contractor" Interestingly enough, speaking of barracks, the full auto fire is so intense and the recoil so powerful that we got our yellow blood stripe on our blouses in honor of Clifton B Cates, who, in the Great War of Soviet Oppression stated:
Hope that helps. Semper Fidelicks.
Not disputing anything you have in here, but during induction week at boot camp (a decade prior to you I'd imagine as we were issued m16a2s during my time) they told us the term "Devil Dog" came from the Germans. The legend is the Germans called us teufelshunde after the Battle of Belleau Woods in 1918.
We were also taught that leathernecks came from our time fighting on ships in the early 1800's and wearing the leather band to protect from saber slashes
Outlander Systems
06-21-16, 12:00
Jack, Euro is Rickrolling the shit outta us.
JackFanToM
06-21-16, 12:02
Yeah I figured as I continued reading...I was becoming more and more bewildered. Good one Euro, threw me for a loop.
Exactly! By no means light but I like the smaller sub guns. Full size, Mp5 etc I'd just rather carry a rifle. G18 now you'll have to get me more trigger time :) . Did you shoot compensated version at all?
Yes. The G18C made it way more controllable. It got so warm, the pins started walking. No joke.
I'm not a small man, but that machine pistol took me for a ride.
Eurodriver
06-21-16, 13:44
Sorry about that Jack, you're absolutely correct. I don't know where my mind went.
I actually found a pretty good history site on the US Marine Corps that will explain to anyone reading my post where I got the references from.
http://www.marines.gov/history.html (https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ?t=42s)
JackFanToM
06-21-16, 13:58
Well no need to apologize, once I realized I had been had, I got a good laugh at my own expense. That took a helluva imagination. I kept thinking there were no machine guns in the 1800's - I literally was reading it thinking Alzheimer's was setting in.
The United States Army qualified ALL 11B riflemen as automatic riflemen in Infantry One Station Unit Training with the M16A1 rifle before changing to the M16A2 and SAW. This was late 70s through probably around 1984 or 85.
It was literally the week after Basic Rifle Marksmanship and basic M16 qualification.
I believe the Marines now qualify with the M27.
http://www.gunnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/m27.jpg
Well then good thing about going with an auto trigger group is the better trigger pull. I remember reading that there were something like 9 different trigger pulls on the cammed trigger set.
One of my old buddies is now a squad leader over in the 101st. They all have M4A1s now and still preach semi auto aimed fire.
Sorry about that Jack, you're absolutely correct. I don't know where my mind went.
I actually found a pretty good history site on the US Marine Corps that will explain to anyone reading my post where I got the references from.
http://www.marines.gov/history.html (https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ?t=42s)
Um, that site makes no reference to LV-426. Clearly a defining moment in the history of the Marine Corps that you omitted from your initial post.
The United States Army qualified ALL 11B riflemen as automatic riflemen in Infantry One Station Unit Training with the M16A1 rifle before changing to the M16A2 and SAW. This was late 70s through probably around 1984 or 85.
It was literally the week after Basic Rifle Marksmanship and basic M16 qualification.
I believe the Marines now qualify with the M27.
For younger(ish) peoples, was this based around the lessons learned of automatic fire from Vietnam? What were the courses of fire? Was that M60 looking bipod used or omitted? I recall an article where one M16 rifleman had the bipod and would be designated as the "full auto guy" aside from someone with a beltfed.
Curious to know more of the history of it and that era. As I am presuming this predates widespread use of the SAW and that the Stoner 63s were not reconsidered or used.
Thanks for any more info or thoughts
JackFanToM
06-21-16, 15:49
Um, that site makes no reference to LV-426. Clearly a defining moment in the history of the Marine Corps that you omitted from your initial post.
Lmao excellent marine reference, super tough enemy in that particular battle.
Um, that site makes no reference to LV-426. Clearly a defining moment in the history of the Marine Corps that you omitted from your initial post.
That'd be the Colonial Marine Corps.
Automatic fire is best left to a belt-fed that has both the weight and slower cyclic rate to be controllable enough to be a benefit. Controlled semi-automatic fire of an M4 is significantly more effective than slamming the gas on auto and letting Jesus take the wheel.
Based on discussions with my LT son, this is pretty much the training now for enlisted and officers. Let the beltfed's do the work, aimed fire for all but emergency suppressive fire. Which, if you are in that kind of emergency, you probably need to be thinking about ammo.
They do shoot burst in close combat training, etc. But it's frowned upon in normal STX/FTX's. And as mentioned, with the normal combat loadout ammo becomes an issue.
But with a SAW in each fire team (two per squad) plus a pair of 240B's in the weapons squad there should be no shortage of full auto. The SAW's are used with optics and appear to be far more effective as far as full auto hits go. My son's (training) experience as a PL was that 249 full auto was more effective even at double the range than even prone M4's in burst.
Maybe all this changes in the real world, but that's the current Army doctrine anyway.
My understanding is there is a difference in the Marine rifle platoons structure, 3 squads vs 4, but larger and with 3 249's per squad? But no separate weapons squad with 240B's. Don't know how the HK's impact this either.
Soldiers shot the auto rifle course of fire on the same Army 300-Meter pop-up ranges with the addition of the "Clothespin" bipod.
H-series light infantry squads had a squad leader and two fire teams, each with a TL (with an M16), a grenadier (with an M203) and one or two additional riflemen (also with M16A1s).
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.