View Full Version : Small arms & accessories: Government vs private industry
Looking at all the different companies nowadays that develop and manufacture things like small arms, optics, web gear, and related items, it seems ( to me, at least) that private industry has to some degree taken over the role that the military R&D offices used to perform.
I guess Magpul Industries would be a case in point. With their P-Mags, various AR/M4 stocks, and the Masada/ACR they seem to do an excellent job of finding out what the market needs or wants (to include military/police users) and then bring that product on line. In the case of the P-Mag anyway, they've pretty much done all the work for the Government if a good off-the-shelf synthetic M16/M4 mag is suddenly needed for general issue.
When the M16 rifle first came on the scene, the Army's "not invented here" mentality played a significant role in the early politics of that system. Has there been a change in that attitude in recent years or is it still apparent?
Looking at all the different companies nowadays that develop and manufacture things like small arms, optics, web gear, and related items, it seems ( to me, at least) that private industry has to some degree taken over the role that the military R&D offices used to perform.
I guess Magpul Industries would be a case in point. With their P-Mags, various AR/M4 stocks, and the Masada/ACR they seem to do an excellent job of finding out what the market needs or wants (to include military/police users) and then bring that product on line. In the case of the P-Mag anyway, they've pretty much done all the work for the Government if a good off-the-shelf synthetic M16/M4 mag is suddenly needed for general issue.
When the M16 rifle first came on the scene, the Army's "not invented here" mentality played a significant role in the early politics of that system. Has there been a change in that attitude in recent years or is it still apparent?
The "not invented here" attitude is still present in some regards, but it is slowly fading as the government realizes more and more that it cannot compete with private industry in terms of innovation and efficiency (cost and time).
One of the big pushes by former Secretary of Defense William Perry was to utilize commercial off the shelf (COTS) items and replace "milspecs" with performance-based requirements. This was aimed primarily at computers and other microprocessor applications, but it applies to everything from pens to ash trays to small arms and accessories.
That said, the military is still a large bureaucracy that is often difficult to navigate and filled with people who want to justify their job. Case in point: PMAG. The Army's Picatinny Arsenal has been developing their own polymer magazine since 2004, and recently spent about $50,000 (IIRC) on a new prototype mold (read: not suitable for production quantities) to continue development. We (Magpul) have offered to send 500 PMAGs free of charge to the Army for comparative testing, but have been refused. Even if they wanted to take the mags, legally speaking, they couldn't without a "full and open competition". The Army has established a need for an injection molded magazine, but refuses to consult private industry. Instead the plan is to do as they're trying to do with an anti-tilt follower - design their own using taxpayer money and implement it without a competition. On a side note, Magpul has fielded well over 1 million anti-tilt followers since they began development of their own version. Our sample offers and unsolicited proposals have been refused on that, too.
It's a very frustrating system, but things are changing...we'll see what happens.
Nick,
Wow!. I knew that the Rock Island-TACOM mafia was bad, but not that bad. I can't believe that the Army is still pursuing their polymer mags when you guys have one ready to go. Have the Marines and other branches been anymore receptive?
Nick,
Wow!. I knew that the Rock Island-TACOM mafia was bad, but not that bad. I can't believe that the Army is still pursuing their polymer mags when you guys have one ready to go. Have the Marines and other branches been anymore receptive?
One can only be so receptive when their hands are tied by the acquisition system. We've gotten a lot of good feedback from all branches, including the Army, but magazine replacement isn't a priority to the higher ups, it seems. I wouldn't be as upset as I am if 1) the Army wasn't developing a product that we already make, and 2) soldiers weren't using their own money to purchase tens of thousands of PMAGs because their unit won't fund the purchase. I'm sick and tired of taking soldiers' personal money for equipment that should be issued to them - that's bullshit.
I agree. The mags that the EOD guys across the way were issued were absolute crap. I wonder how many of those mags had seen previous tours here in Iraq. I just gave them some more new Colt mags, because that's all we have here.
If someone was smart they would do a cost analysis showing the cost of aluminum mags v. Pmags v. the longevity of said mags and their reliability. Though replacing the magazines would cost more initially the replacement frequency would decrease and the military would have better mags.
One can only be so receptive when their hands are tied by the acquisition system. We've gotten a lot of good feedback from all branches, including the Army, but magazine replacement isn't a priority to the higher ups, it seems. I wouldn't be as upset as I am if 1) the Army wasn't developing a product that we already make, and 2) soldiers weren't using their own money to purchase tens of thousands of PMAGs because their unit won't fund the purchase. I'm sick and tired of taking soldiers' personal money for equipment that should be issued to them - that's bullshit.
I agree. The mags that the EOD guys across the way were issued were absolute crap. I wonder how many of those mags had seen previous tours here in Iraq. I just gave them some more new Colt mags, because that's all we have here.
If someone was smart they would do a cost analysis showing the cost of aluminum mags v. Pmags v. the longevity of said mags and their reliability. Though replacing the magazines would cost more initially the replacement frequency would decrease and the military would have better mags.
In military quantities, I'm not even sure if the PMAG would cost more per unit...
Ridge_Runner_5
08-31-08, 14:18
The "not invented here" attitude is still present in some regards, but it is slowly fading as the government realizes more and more that it cannot compete with private industry in terms of innovation and efficiency (cost and time).
One of the big pushes by former Secretary of Defense William Perry was to utilize commercial off the shelf (COTS) items and replace "milspecs" with performance-based requirements. This was aimed primarily at computers and other microprocessor applications, but it applies to everything from pens to ash trays to small arms and accessories.
That said, the military is still a large bureaucracy that is often difficult to navigate and filled with people who want to justify their job. Case in point: PMAG. The Army's Picatinny Arsenal has been developing their own polymer magazine since 2004, and recently spent about $50,000 (IIRC) on a new prototype mold (read: not suitable for production quantities) to continue development. We (Magpul) have offered to send 500 PMAGs free of charge to the Army for comparative testing, but have been refused. Even if they wanted to take the mags, legally speaking, they couldn't without a "full and open competition". The Army has established a need for an injection molded magazine, but refuses to consult private industry. Instead the plan is to do as they're trying to do with an anti-tilt follower - design their own using taxpayer money and implement it without a competition. On a side note, Magpul has fielded well over 1 million anti-tilt followers since they began development of their own version. Our sample offers and unsolicited proposals have been refused on that, too.
It's a very frustrating system, but things are changing...we'll see what happens.
So the army refuses to take them...has Magpul considered the other branches, like, say, the Marines and AF? Particularly the Air Force, they are a younger branch and would likely be more open to new designs...
Shifting to COTS and allowing more non-SMU conventional units the resources and authority to purchase gear rather than wait for the bureaucracy to develop it was one of the five smartest decisions a SecDef has done in the past twenty five years IMHO...kudos to former Secretary Perry. Most folks here would not believe how painful it was to develop and out line what a "mil-spec" spec really was, and having it staffed, approved, and promulgated. Things now are boatloads better, and this has allowed smaller companies with good ideas (i.e. Ronnir Barrett and his M82) the chance to innovate, compete, and thrive against the ".mil-industial complex" usual suspects.
SCL
True Dat!
In military quantities, I'm not even sure if the PMAG would cost more per unit...
So the army refuses to take them...has Magpul considered the other branches, like, say, the Marines and AF? Particularly the Air Force, they are a younger branch and would likely be more open to new designs...
Absolutely. Some services are more receptive than others, that's for sure.
RogerinTPA
08-31-08, 17:38
Nick,
I used to work out at SOCOM at Macdill AFB here in Tampa back in the day. They have, over the years, have streamlined their acquisition process to be front line unit friendly. I'm sure if you guys at Magpul made the PMAG pitch, they would surely take a bite. They have on lots of COTS products. A while ago, the Army was trying to copy their acquisition process to get the needed equipment to the user with loads of men in the field asking the soldier what needs to be improved, what works, and what is needed. Just like the SOPMOD equipment list a while back, most of it has filtered down to the war fighters. As SOCOM goes, so does the big Army. There is also an annual SOCOM convention here in Tampa where industry folks showcase their latest products and makes their pitch to them. (Pretty much like a SOCOM SHOT Show)....just a thought.
Would it help if we normal folk asked our Congressmen why this crap is going on? (specifically the mag development)
Nick,
I used to work out at SOCOM at Macdill AFB here in Tampa back in the day. They have, over the years, have streamlined their acquisition process to be front line unit friendly. I'm sure if you guys at Magpul made the PMAG pitch, they would surely take a bite. They have on lots of COTS products. A while ago, the Army was trying to copy their acquisition process to get the needed equipment to the user with loads of men in the field asking the soldier what needs to be improved, what works, and what is needed. Just like the SOPMOD equipment list a while back, most of it has filtered down to the war fighters. As SOCOM goes, so does the big Army. There is also an annual SOCOM convention here in Tampa where industry folks showcase their latest products and makes their pitch to them. (Pretty much like a SOCOM SHOT Show)....just a thought.
Unfortunately, I had to be at NDIA this year while the SOCOM convention was going on. I'll try to go next year. Either way, the problem isn't necessarily that no one knows about the PMAG, but rather that no one has the time/money/man power to invest in a real competition or evaluation. Those within SOCOM with a certain level of independent budgetary discretion have no reason to change things - they just use an impact card to get their gear, including PMAGs, through retail outlets, GSA, prime vendors, etc.
If you have any suggestions for specific people I should know within SOCOM, I'd love to talk to you on the phone or via email. I've got a few connections in the organization, but more is better. I appreciate the tip.
Would it help if we normal folk asked our Congressmen why this crap is going on? (specifically the mag development)
I would very much appreciate any letters you would be willing to write on this issue. I've been very surprised how much our Senators and Congressmen pay attention to letters like these...it's refreshing to know that they really do pay attention.
For what it's worth, here is the program I'm talking about: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2006smallarms/foltz.pdf
Slater, I apologize for hijacking this thread. We can get this back on track and away from Magpul's dilemma.
No sweat. It's always interesting to read about the goings-on between industry and government.
The United States' small arms acquisition process has almost always been in the shitter, and has gotten worse since dis-establishing the national armories -- not that it was any good when they were tripping all over themselves with M14 - M16 politics.
The Infantry Center does a horrible job articulating the foot Soldier's basic rifle and small arms requirements.
The US Army's Labs provide welfare for engineers and Ph.Ds.
The United States Special Operations Command has leverage over Mother Army because it has its own R&D and acquisition money authorized under the Nunn-Cohen Act of 1987 which gave birth to SOCOM.
If the Army adopts a SOCOM-peculiar item it must (by law) buy the items for ALL US Army Special Operations Command Soldiers and units. If Mother Army does not standardize the item SOCOM buys the equipment for SOCOM Operators. This explains why, when you see a General Purpose Forces Soldier standing next to an SF Soldier there are differences in kit.
The SF Soldier may have the latest cutting edge equipment, and it should fit (off-the-cuff examples being BALCS armor or a separate plate carrier; the Universal Night Sight; perhaps a 45 caliber pistol; free-floating rail on his M4 or Shorty Mark 18; a 300 or 338 Lapua sniper rifle; different special environment clothing, etc.).
As industry releases something good, USSOCOM, USASOC, and Special Mission Units have the option of getting the Combat Development guys to the designers in a hurry. When Bill Geiselle showed me his first triggers at Camp Perry we were able to get them for AR-10T prototypes and that's when I first asked him when he'd have a select-fire version ready.
The Army's system sucks. The Navy system seems easier to work with, though historically gullible and in love with their own work (often falling into what appear to be really chummy and inappropriate relationships with certain vendors).
Just my two unofficial cents as an end-user. I am NOT a manufacturer, an Acquisition official, a contract, ordering, or supply officer.
In the past I HAVE been a trigger-puller, a commander, a requirements and doctrine writer-recommender, a trainer, a tester, and an approving officer.
http://militarysignatures.com/signatures/member2557.png (http://militarysignatures.com)
RogerinTPA
08-31-08, 21:16
Sorry Bro, but I have been out of the game too long. Position rotations every 3-4 years. Here's a link from their website. http://www.socom.mil/soal/welcome_letter.htm
It leads to their acquisition process and how to sell to them.
If you have any suggestions for specific people I should know within SOCOM, I'd love to talk to you on the phone or via email. I've got a few connections in the organization, but more is better. I appreciate the tip.
The Army has established a need for an injection molded magazine, but refuses to consult private industry.
Picatinny was prepared to buy somewhere between 50 and 100 of the Israeli-made SIG polymer magazines intended for the 556 back in '06. In fact, SIG got the mags in and (luckily) discovered that the mags cracked when dropped. I had Picatinny cancel the order rather than have them test and reject the mags.
My recollection is that they'd agreed to pay $50 per mag, but it may have been $40.
Shoot me a PM and I'll see if I can put you in touch with someone there (ARDEC) on Tuesday.
Sorry Bro, but I have been out of the game too long. Position rotations every 3-4 years. Here's a link from their website. http://www.socom.mil/soal/welcome_letter.htm
It leads to their acquisition process and how to sell to them.
Again, I appreciate it. We've jumped through the official hoops a dozen times, and like everyone else, have had little measurable success. I have no desire to "sell" anything to SOCOM, big Army, or anyone else. I'd be contented to simply be tested side by side with all the other magazine replacements and be able to stop taking soldiers' personal money...
Nick,
A unit commander can spend his ops and sustainment (O&M) money any way he sees fit. He can send his S4 to contracting and order as many MAGPUL followers as he wants and can afford -- if he's willing to spend his own unit's money on magazines vice anything else (batteries, tires, parts, anything else with an NSN, etc.).
I've ordered tens of thousands of dollars worth of gear directly from commercial vendors.
If you sell to a Defense Logistics Agency distributor the commander can transfer his money directly on a Military Inter-Agency Purchase Request, or MIPR ("Mipper") -- which serves like a DOD wire transfer WITHOUT having to go through the contract process.
Something to think about.
Have the Marines and other branches been anymore receptive?
Speaking as an 03XX infantryman, the Marines are VERY receptive to the PMAG.
Speaking as a guy that has dropped to the IRR and now works at Systems Command, Infantry Weapons Systems, the Marine Corps, unfortunately, often finds its hands tied in regard to such basic things. The Army is the primary contract holder on the lion's share of basic armaments and the components that go with them, so Corps-wide, we have to use what the Army uses. I think the PMAG would almost certainly fall in that category, unless some fairy-god-senator managed to ramrod something through whatever committee it is that allows us to do "congressional buys," like the money that allowed us to purchase the AN/PVS-21 LPNG.
Oh, and don't get me started on configuration management issues regarding common systems shared by multiple branches! Dealing with how the Army gets approval for the use of laser devices vs. the way we do it is, I'm sure, contributing to 80% of my current level of pattern baldness.
Long story short, whole metric #$%&loads of Marines and other warfighters are purchasing gear with their own funds that enhance the capability and reliability of their kit. Sticking strictly to magazines, I've lost count of how many times I've told LCpl Dirty McNasty to shell out the dough to swap USGI followers with Magpul, or buy H&K steel magazines. At least then, his crap LOOKS like issue so he doesn't get his ass in a crack with some SNCO with a uniformity-for-the-sake-of-uniformity complex.
I learned a long time ago that the best acquisition/supply system available is the one I build for myself (leavened with a liberal dose of sneakiness) and whatever band of happy cutthroats I was in charge of at the time.
So true. I found this out when working with the Marines at Al-Asad back in 2005 and then later in 2006-07 at a different location.
Speaking as an 03XX infantryman, the Marines are VERY receptive to the PMAG.
Speaking as a guy that has dropped to the IRR and now works at Systems Command, Infantry Weapons Systems, the Marine Corps, unfortunately, often finds its hands tied in regard to such basic things. The Army is the primary contract holder on the lion's share of basic armaments and the components that go with them, so Corps-wide, we have to use what the Army uses. I think the PMAG would almost certainly fall in that category, unless some fairy-god-senator managed to ramrod something through whatever committee it is that allows us to do "congressional buys," like the money that allowed us to purchase the AN/PVS-21 LPNG.
Oh, and don't get me started on configuration management issues regarding common systems shared by multiple branches! Dealing with how the Army gets approval for the use of laser devices vs. the way we do it is, I'm sure, contributing to 80% of my current level of pattern baldness.
Long story short, whole metric #$%&loads of Marines and other warfighters are purchasing gear with their own funds that enhance the capability and reliability of their kit. Sticking strictly to magazines, I've lost count of how many times I've told LCpl Dirty McNasty to shell out the dough to swap USGI followers with Magpul, or buy H&K steel magazines. At least then, his crap LOOKS like issue so he doesn't get his ass in a crack with some SNCO with a uniformity-for-the-sake-of-uniformity complex.
I learned a long time ago that the best acquisition/supply system available is the one I build for myself (leavened with a liberal dose of sneakiness) and whatever band of happy cutthroats I was in charge of at the time.
Is it possible to hazard a guess as to how many P-Mags are in service in Iraq and Afghanistan? A few hundred? Several thousand?
Nick,
A unit commander can spend his ops and sustainment (O&M) money any way he sees fit. He can send his S4 to contracting and order as many MAGPUL followers as he wants and can afford -- if he's willing to spend his own unit's money on magazines vice anything else (batteries, tires, parts, anything else with an NSN, etc.).
I've ordered tens of thousands of dollars worth of gear directly from commercial vendors.
If you sell to a Defense Logistics Agency distributor the commander can transfer his money directly on a Military Inter-Agency Purchase Request, or MIPR ("Mipper") -- which serves like a DOD wire transfer WITHOUT having to go through the contract process.
Something to think about.
I see these types of things come through all the time, but I appreciate the detailed explanation - I was unaware of the exact process. I was speaking more in terms of large purchases. Beyond a certain dollar amount, they're legally bound to have some sort of competition. I'm fine with that, but no one seems to have the time or man power to conduct such a fair and open competition for magazines right now. Most resources are being devoted to larger projects, it seems. It's all about priorities, and who am I to say they're wrong? Magazines will have to wait.
Is it possible to hazard a guess as to how many P-Mags are in service in Iraq and Afghanistan? A few hundred? Several thousand?
I can guarantee that tens of thousands are in service with men and women who have deployed, rotated home, deployed again, etc. It's hard to say exactly how many are over seas at this very moment, but it's growing significantly every day.
Hell, you should add the phrase "Combat Proven" to your promo material for the P-Mag. I'm sure that with that many in service somebody's had to use them to shoot bad guys.
Hell, you should add the phrase "Combat Proven" to your promo material for the P-Mag. I'm sure that with that many in service somebody's had to use them to shoot bad guys.
I've got a library of email testimonials from guys in theater...PMAG has been used to shoot more than a few bad guys, I assure you. :D
not invented here and so-cailed mil-spec both have done some harm in many ways - wallets have been padded at the cost of men lives and time to fix ,what scandals brewing [please find the book ''misfire''] it will help you understand how bad things really are! look at what damage the AWB did to invention and supply systems ?! so let the holy cows die !
Ah yes!
How many years did it take to figure out what caused 60-70% of malfuntions on the M16/M4 rifles?
What, some 30 to 40 years to figure out that little plastic follower could have been improved at a current cost of around a buck a piece? About the cost of one single Bradley Integrated Sight Unit (now old stuff) would have easily outfitted the entire DOD with Magpul followers. And for what one M1 Abrahms engine cost we could have also done the same with replacing all mags with HK mags.
In those 30 years weve fielded the M1 Abrahms-4th version now, Bradley IFV-2nd version, LAV, Apache, Blackhawk, B1, B2, F117 and a whole bunch of other A/C.
But we don't need infantrymen anymore, right?
Gents,
If a unit's NCOs can convince the Command Sergeants Major that an item is better than "Mission-enhancing" equipment the C.O. can send the S4 to buy whatever it is he needs.
The US Government International Merchants Purchase Authority Card (IMPAC) credit card allows the Supply Sergeant or S4 Officer to immediately purchase (by internet or 1-800 call) a one-time purchase of up to $2500. Trust me, that buys a lot of MAGPUL followers to drop right into GI magazines. :)
I was trying to remember the name of that damned card. Thanks.
Gents,
If a unit's NCOs can convince the Command Sergeants Major that an item is better than "Mission-enhancing" equipment the C.O. can send the S4 to buy whatever it is he needs.
The US Government International Merchants Purchase Authority Card (IMPAC) credit card allows the Supply Sergeant or S4 Officer to immediately purchase (by internet or 1-800 call) a one-time purchase of up to $2500. Trust me, that buys a lot of MAGPUL followers to drop right into GI magazines. :)
It does...and they do.
If you have any suggestions for specific people I should know within SOCOM, I'd love to talk to you on the phone or via email. I've got a few connections in the organization, but more is better. I appreciate the tip.
I may have an buying/acquisition contact of sorts at SOCOM for you, a call has been made. Will send a PM with any further information.
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