View Full Version : Father kills son at range after hot brass down shirt
Moose-Knuckle
07-05-16, 04:22
Father Accidentally Shoots Teenage Son at Florida Gun Range
Authorities say a 14-year-old boy was accidentally shot and killed by his father at a Florida gun range.
William Brumby was firing his weapon at the High Noon Gun Range in Sarasota on Sunday when a spent shell casing deflected off a nearby wall and landed inside the back of his shirt.
A statement from the Sarasota County Sheriff's Office says Brumby tried to remove the shell with his right hand, which was holding the gun and accidentally fired the gun at his son, who was standing directly behind him.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/father-accidentally-shoots-teenage-son-florida-gun-range-40335991?yptr=yahoo
Wow. That's sad in a few ways.
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Moose-Knuckle
07-05-16, 05:12
I mean who hasn't had hot brass down their shirt/collar?
Anyone who has spent time shooting firearms experiences this at one time or another, but WTF would you use your gun hand with your GUN IN IT to attempt to remove the offending brass?!
I really wished the father would have shot himself by accident instead of his poor son, maybe he fills the same but I doubt it.
sad as its something that could have been avoided with better control and training etc...
Wow. Extremely sad. Easily avoidable. I don't understand how easily people forget they have a gun in their hand.
Gotta keep you game-face on at all times.
And even despite his huge safety violation, it took the freak action of the bullet bouncing off the ceiling and hitting the kids' jugular and traveling through his body. Crazy story, I cannot even imagine what this family, the Dad in particular are going through.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-05-16, 08:15
And even despite his huge safety violation, it took the freak action of the bullet bouncing off the ceiling and hitting the kids' jugular and traveling through his body. Crazy story, I cannot even imagine what this family, the Dad in particular are going through.
I don't get how he was using his right hand to hold the gun, get the brass and hit the ceiling? The press makes it sound like he was pointing the gun at the kid. The kid is dead either way but "Freak Ricochet kills kid" is far less of an interesting headline.
Meanwhile, this doesn't even make CNN.
The attacks raised the number of people shot in the city over the Fourth of July weekend to at least 60, according to data collected by the Tribune. Among those, four people were fatally shot over the weekend holiday
I don't get how he was using his right hand to hold the gun, get the brass and hit the ceiling? The press makes it sound like he was pointing the gun at the kid. The kid is dead either way but "Freak Ricochet kills kid" is far less of an interesting headline.
Meanwhile, this doesn't even make CNN.
I dunno...according to what I have read, officials are saying the video evidence and the medical examiner corroborate that he was reacting to the brass in his shirt, and the bullet he fired ricocheted off the ceiling.
Averageman
07-05-16, 10:50
I would imagine until you are competent it might be prudent to leave the kids at home when you go to the range. I would say reacting to hot brass by having a ND is a level of incompetence.
Take a second and think, wear the right gear, PPE and be prepared to be distracted and know how to deal with it.
WTF. Suck it up and deal. It's hot but not that hot. Not like it's gonna kill you....
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-05-16, 11:44
I would imagine until you are competent it might be prudent to leave the kids at home when you go to the range. I would say reacting to hot brass by having a ND is a level of incompetence.
Take a second and think, wear the right gear, PPE and be prepared to be distracted and know how to deal with it.
This reminds me of the story I saw about the 45 that was double firing and the second round, being higher, found the one hole between the backstop and the ceiling, followed along the ceiling and came down and struck a kid sitting at a counter. Considering the number of shots I see in the ceiling at most indoor (and outdoor) ranges, this isn't that much of an unusual event.
Whiskey_Bravo
07-05-16, 12:00
Considering the number of shots I see in the ceiling at most indoor (and outdoor) ranges, this isn't that much of an unusual event.
This. The amount of impacts on the sidewall and ceiling that are no more than a couple of feet away are always concerning.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-05-16, 12:05
I was at a range in Hailey, ID over the weekend and I pointed out to my son that there were no holes on the roof or the vertical supports- don't be the guy who makes the first.
sevenhelmet
07-05-16, 13:10
My wife and I were talking about this one at breakfast this morning. The level of negligence is astonishing- he violated at least 3 of the 4 basic rules and killed his own son.
It's hardly mitigating, but at least the guy publicly blamed himself and not the gun. I can't imagine that was easy. Not sure how I'd be getting out of bed in the morning if I were him.
I say this with no attempt at humor:
I took an ample breasted female shooting who wanted to wear a plungy shirt. I told her that she shouldn't have worn it but she wanted to shoot. She got brass in her cleavage. And I said "Gun on the counter first!" and she was able to keep the pistol downrange and put on the bay counter before removing the brass.
Ever since then I always keep an old BDU shirt for when I take a female showing if she's feeling like dressing sexy that day.
If a young female can keep her composure with brass in a sensitive area then this guy has no excuse.
If I killed my own kid out of stupidity then I honestly wouldn't be able to live anymore.
Father Accidentally Shoots Teenage Son at Florida Gun Range
Happy it's rare, but I have always been surprised that does not happen more often. Woman shot herself in the arm in a range by me in MA (so it's not just wacky FL!) as she found out v neck T shirts and big boobs (so I was told...) and hot brass don't mix well. Bullet passed clean through her arm and no one else harmed, so ended far better than this event in FL.
Personal favorite, when brass gets caught between shooting glasses and face and you can hear it sizzle as you calmly put gun down to remove. That "oh, that's why hats at the range do more than keep sun off your face" moments.
sevenhelmet
07-05-16, 13:26
Does anyone here really think it's the first time the guy has had hot brass problems and used his strong hand to flap his shirt without putting the gun down first? It's like when someone gets a DUI and they find out he's driven drunk before, he just wasn't caught.
Having seen someone get sent home from a USPSA for event similar negligent firearms practice, it's an important reminder to police our own. Also makes me think halfway seriously about wearing armor at the range.
That's something else I'm glad you touched on Will.
Having had the dubious pleasure of shooting with various types of people over the years (from legit bodydroppers to teenybopper girls to undiagnosed retards), I've gotten pretty paranoid.
I double up on earpro, always have a hat, and always have protective eyes 'm frame' style be they actual Oakleys or just Remington shooting glasses. Ray Bans are nice in the world but I want something with some kinda ANSI rating
Never shoot alone and if retards are at a range, I don't shoot.
I double up on Earpro because tinnitus. It sucks. What little hearing I have left, I intend to keep.
Simple preparedness can prevent a lot of tragedy.
Also makes me think halfway seriously about wearing armor at the range.
I bring my plates to classes and keep them on standby just in case I'm stuck on a line or in a stack with a mouthbreather.
sevenhelmet
07-05-16, 13:52
I bring my plates to classes and keep them on standby just in case I'm stuck on a line or in a stack with a mouthbreather.
Fair enough. Some people highlight themselves early, and some people just make stupid-ass mistakes. If a guy is that much of a mouthbreather that you're worried about your safety, why can't you just have the RSO chuck him? What if there's a decent guy near you who just makes a mistake? I don't think I'm a mouth breather, but I don't think I'm immune to a N.D. either. God knows I do my best to keep the people around me safe, since handling a weapon demands no less. But at some point, if we ever want to shoot, we have to accept some level of risk.
Not disagreeing with your chosen mitigation, just airing some random thoughts over lunch.
I was at a range in Hailey, ID over the weekend and I pointed out to my son that there were no holes on the roof or the vertical supports- don't be the guy who makes the first.
Nice. Blaine county for sure has less retards at the gun range than Jerome. After I noticed the number of holes and the sun shade, and had some jerk off with a 10/22 decide to unilaterally make a cold range hot, I decided maybe I'm done going there....
Such a sad story. For get UBC......how bout IQ testing.
To be fair, me, my family, and friends have sent about umpteen brazillion rounds down range since the 80's. And we've had close calls with guns pointed at each other and people almost get shot......let's see.....how many times..........mmmmmmm...... Still thinking........
Well shit.... The answer is zero....huh....imagine that.
Well, I guess it's officially official. Way to go dickhead. Ya shot your kid because you're a dumbass.
I say this with no attempt at humor:
I took an ample breasted female shooting who wanted to wear a plungy shirt. I told her that she shouldn't have worn it but she wanted to shoot. She got brass in her cleavage. And I said "Gun on the counter first!" and she was able to keep the pistol downrange and put on the bay counter before removing the brass.
Ever since then I always keep an old BDU shirt for when I take a female showing if she's feeling like dressing sexy that day.
If a young female can keep her composure with brass in a sensitive area then this guy has no excuse.
If I killed my own kid out of stupidity then I honestly wouldn't be able to live anymore.
All I read was ample breasts....
Lol
Personal favorite, when brass gets caught between shooting glasses and face and you can hear it sizzle as you calmly put gun down to remove. That "oh, that's why hats at the range do more than keep sun off your face" moments.Shooting Glocks has its downsides har har.
Ok, how many of the four rules could have prevented this?
1. Don't point your weapon at anything you are not willing to destroy.
I wonder how many people he flagged before shooting his kid? A firearm is not a hot brass removal tool. You put your weapon on the bench and once it's safe you then go after the hot brass.
2. Do not put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to fire.
Even if he just followed this simply rule while waving his gun around, he'd still have a kid. This is another reason to put your weapon down on the bench if you have an emergency.
At least he didn't shoot somebody else's kid. Guns aren't iphones. If you own one you better use it responsibly and safely.
This reminds me of the story I saw about the 45 that was double firing and the second round, being higher, found the one hole between the backstop and the ceiling, followed along the ceiling and came down and struck a kid sitting at a counter. Considering the number of shots I see in the ceiling at most indoor (and outdoor) ranges, this isn't that much of an unusual event.
That sounds like more of a backstop failure than weapon negligence.
That's something else I'm glad you touched on Will.
Having had the dubious pleasure of shooting with various types of people over the years (from legit bodydroppers to teenybopper girls to undiagnosed retards), I've gotten pretty paranoid.
I double up on earpro, always have a hat, and always have protective eyes 'm frame' style be they actual Oakleys or just Remington shooting glasses. Ray Bans are nice in the world but I want something with some kinda ANSI rating
Never shoot alone and if retards are at a range, I don't shoot.
I double up on Earpro because tinnitus. It sucks. What little hearing I have left, I intend to keep.
Simple preparedness can prevent a lot of tragedy.
I'm with you dude. I'm a dick at gun day (our own group). Always do a safety meeting unless I'm with people that aren't restards when it comes to guns. And in my circle of life, it's a handful that make that list. Remind everyone, everyone, twice if needed.
Last year, had a guy that got bought along, and was bitchy about my safety meeting. Said im a Marine yada yada.....your gay.....bla blah And of course, I was rude back. After he inserted a mag backwards I decided my paranoia was not unfounded. Guy was a truck driver, not combat arms. Which isn't the point. Point is that nobody gets to be a dipshit. There isn't any such thing as an accidental discharge... It's negligent. End of discussion. If you have a magic gun that does shoot on it's own, it's not effing magic. It's broken.....your shits broken hoss....
Always works out to be more fun in the end. Everyone has fun. The ladies become super snipers before the day is over and setting off .5 lb tannerite with their new gun and trigger skills. Had some guys from Boston who'd never touched rifles in their lives start to look like legitimate shooters by days end.
Plus, everyone gets to go home, alive, and un-ventilated.
Situations like firefly discusses at the range with retards, if you can't talk to them, just leave. Ain't worth it.
Also makes me think halfway seriously about wearing armor at the range.
I have had the thought more than once too.
More than once, the "I was in the military" guy was the most dangerous SOB on the line.
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More than once, the "I was in the military" guy was the most dangerous SOB on the line.
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^^^^^^^^^
I've run into this at a few pistol classes I taught.
I am also careful around the guy who says "I've been shooting for over 40 years!" early in the class. He gets watched closely until he displays safe firearm handling.
The hot brass accident was tragic and preventable.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-05-16, 14:37
That sounds like more of a backstop failure than weapon negligence.
This round ricocheted off the ceiling, that's why I thought it was relevant. I'm still trying to figure out how you try to clear brass with your strong hand and have the gun pointed up. I could understand it more if it were a direct shot.
Was it a double bounce, off the roof, off the sidewall and hit the kid? I could see that?
Of course, this is all what is being reported in the press. I want to see the police report or any video. I think it is far more likely that he was actually using his weak hand and had his weapon hand up and sympathetically pulled the trigger, shot bounces off the roof.
That sounds like more of a backstop failure than weapon negligence.
I think it's the opposite. The ceiling was not designed to safely suck up rounds. Unfortunately this is a Negligent Discharge of the worst order.
Condolences to the family, especially the father. It will take a long time for him to get over this unfortunate event.
Shooting Glocks has its downsides har har.
Is that reference to brass in face Glock thing? Not being a Glock shooter, I only hear of such problems (har har implied)
read it was a ruger 22 ?
if any anti gun nuts and it started OH SEE another child killed
I am still saying yes and 11 more will die because their parents handed them the keys and a phone and another 3 drown because the parents are to busy to watch there child
so 1 gun accident in how long vs 11 a day in texting and 3 in drowning every day vs this so go spend your energy on stopping this
and of course the 2000 babies being murdered by the mom who decided they did not want there child at all
Dist. Expert 26
07-05-16, 17:45
This guy is undoubtedly a retard, but I can say with 100% certainty that he could care less what anyone thinks of him. If I killed my son out of negligence chances are that the gun would be turned my way shortly thereafter.
Yet another reason I'm thankful I never have to go to pubic ranges.
This round ricocheted off the ceiling, that's why I thought it was relevant. I'm still trying to figure out how you try to clear brass with your strong hand and have the gun pointed up. I could understand it more if it were a direct shot.
Was it a double bounce, off the roof, off the sidewall and hit the kid? I could see that?
Of course, this is all what is being reported in the press. I want to see the police report or any video. I think it is far more likely that he was actually using his weak hand and had his weapon hand up and sympathetically pulled the trigger, shot bounces off the roof.
I missed the part about him bouncing a round off the roof. Sounds pretty suspicious to me. I thought he directly flagged his kid when he discharged the weapon. We're probably gonna have to sit through a half dozen evolving versions of the event before we get what actually happened.
I've done a lot of "hot brass" including some "uniquely painful" .308 that just fed out of a HK21 and in every single instance I put the weapon down in a safe manner. I haven't had any special "hot brass" training, if "I" can do it, literally almost anybody can do it if they are able to competently hold and fire their weapon.
Doing the Chuck Berry simply because you have "hot brass" in your shirt is right up there with getting PTSD because you fired a 5.56mm weapon, except in this case the irresponsible shooter killed his kid.
I'll take it one further, I know TWO guys who have been actually shot on the firing line, and in both cases they put their weapon down in a safe manner before taking a knee or dropping. In both instances "rookie cops" were involved who shot another "rookie cop" due to negligent gun handling. Thankfully both cops who were shot survived without significant injury and the other cops were reassigned to McDonalds.
It was about 15 years ago, but I think the second one actually managed to safe and holster his weapon after being shot.
More than once, the "I was in the military" guy was the most dangerous SOB on the line.
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Yep... except those who after a thousand or so rounds on the 240 end up taking a belt of brass down their sleeve. You get acclimated really quick to that level of discomfort over the years.
Averageman
07-05-16, 18:17
I dunno, if I had a ND and killed my kid, I don't see how I could live with it.
That guy has a hard and likely short road ahead of him.
Moose-Knuckle
07-06-16, 04:54
It will take a long time for him to get over this unfortunate event.
You don't get over something like this, ever.
Yep... except those who after a thousand or so rounds on the 240 end up taking a belt of brass down their sleeve. You get acclimated really quick to that level of discomfort over the years.
I have a friend from Mexico who has a nasty thick and jagged scar in the outline of a 7.62 NATO casing. While doing a 240 qual in the USMC he had a spent case lodge between his neck and the collar on his kit, sizzle . . . sizzle.
This. The amount of impacts on the sidewall and ceiling that are no more than a couple of feet away are always concerning.
Agreed. My local range won't even let you ON an outside lane if they don't know you.
As far as the OP, I've had hot brass on my neck, hell I've been creased by copper jacket frags bouncing back, that drew blood. I don't think I ever even stopped shooting. I feel for the father, but I don't get it.
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Agreed. My local range won't even let you ON an outside lane if they don't know you.
As far as the OP, I've had hot brass on my neck, hell I've been creased by copper jacket frags bouncing back, that drew blood. I don't think I ever even stopped shooting. I feel for the father, but I don't get it.
I've had hot brass down the front of my shirt, back of my shirt and even caught between my eyelid, and my shooting glasses (I wear a hat now), and the first thing I always did was put the gun down with the muzzle pointing downrange.
What a terrible freak occurrence that could have been easily avoided. I can't fathom what that father and his family is going through.
I say this with no attempt at humor:
I took an ample breasted female shooting who wanted to wear a plungy shirt. I told her that she shouldn't have worn it but she wanted to shoot. She got brass in her cleavage. And I said "Gun on the counter first!" and she was able to keep the pistol downrange and put on the bay counter before removing the brass.
I had the same thing happen to my wife recently. She wasn't really wearing that low cut of a top, but the brass just happened to find enough clearance to get in there. Even though she doesn't have a ton of experience shooting, her first reaction was to put the gun down before trying to dig the brass out. She had a nice burn for a few days. I was very impressed with her reaction and made a point to show her this story and explain why I was proud of her.
I've had hot brass down the front of my shirt, back of my shirt and even caught between my eyelid, and my shooting glasses (I wear a hat now), and the first thing I always did was put the gun down with the muzzle pointing downrange.
Exactly.
The eyelid tho? Dang!
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