View Full Version : XS Big Dot Sights Installation
Am hoping to upgrade my sights to the XS Big Dots on the Glock 19, and then if they prove successful for me, perhaps for a G26 as well. I am not a competitive or long distance pistol target shooter, but rather my goal is to have a fast sight picture for defensive application for eyes that aren't getting younger. Here's my specific question: for those who have installed these yourselves, do you recommend using a rear sight tool (like from Maryland Gun Works) or drifting the sight with a punch? The manufacturer installation videos demonstrate the punch method, and they actually recommend not using a sight tool, suggesting that if the sight is out of alignment as it is placed into the groove in the slide, it may not be recognized due to the mechanical advantage of the tool and binding might break something. For those of you who have actually done this, what has been your experience? Thanks for your input!!!
Install the front with red loctite (271) high strength. As far as the rear goes the XS sights don't take much to install so a wooden dowel should suffice. Don't lock the rear down (blue loctite 242) until you are happy with your poa/poi with your chosen loads and distance. I don't think the rear sight on the XS's would give enough to bite on your average sight tool. My MGW pro allows height adjustment but I'd still just knock em in with a wood or nylon.
If they are tritium, push them in. If not, it's up to you. I've always found it easier to get them straight when pushing than pounding. Generally, anymore, about the only sights I drift are rifle sights.
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This may help...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDeu498DrNc
Am hoping to upgrade my sights to the XS Big Dots on the Glock 19, and then if they prove successful for me, perhaps for a G26 as well. I am not a competitive or long distance pistol target shooter, but rather my goal is to have a fast sight picture for defensive application for eyes that aren't getting younger. Here's my specific question: for those who have installed these yourselves, do you recommend using a rear sight tool (like from Maryland Gun Works) or drifting the sight with a punch? The manufacturer installation videos demonstrate the punch method, and they actually recommend not using a sight tool, suggesting that if the sight is out of alignment as it is placed into the groove in the slide, it may not be recognized due to the mechanical advantage of the tool and binding might break something. For those of you who have actually done this, what has been your experience? Thanks for your input!!!
I'm nearly certain that the XS sights come with a brass punch. I could be wrong though, but here's what I recommend:
If you don't have a punch, you can get nylon or brass punches from eBay for very cheap. Get the punches, get some blue loctite, get a glock sight tool (also on ebay for really cheap.)
Unscrew the existing front sight, blue loctite and screw the new one one. Use the punch to punch the old one out and new one in. Done.
I would NOT use red loctite for any of this. Blue loctite is meant to prevent things from walking out but still be able to break a seal by man-strength. Red loctite needs to be heated up in order for it to be removed by hand. I would not recommend red for this.
The_Watcher
07-05-16, 16:10
The sites come with a nylon punch for the rear site – they also come with the correct tool for the front site as well as the red Loctite. They are really a DIY job
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Op, before you blow $100, knock your rear sight out, and paint the front white. Go burn some rounds like that and see if it works for you. That's very close to the XS sight picture and doesn't cost anything.
I've installed dozens and dozens of fronts with red loctite (271) and never had any shoot loose or be difficult to remove. We're not talking a lug nut here it's a tiny machine screw, they break free plenty easy. I glue the blade down and the screw both.
I installed a set of the Standard Dot Tritium's on my G30s. The hardest part is getting the factory rear out. On the XS sights the Front takes a little bit of care to get lined up, but the same can probably be said for any other front site going on a Glock. Actually installing the front is a breeze. I opted for Blue Loctite over the Red they provided. I've bumped it against door frames and dropped it once while cleaning on Tile floor and it hasn't budged.
For the rear, again, getting the stock one out was a chore. I don't have a pusher and used a wooden dowel rod. Be careful, but don't baby it. Once out, if you follow the directions, the rear goes in just as easy as the front. I can't remember if it was in the instructions or on their website, but it said that if it doesn't slide in with minimal force, you should carefully and slowly file it down. Mine was pretty tight, so I took one of the wife's nail files and ran the base of the sight once from Left to Right, and then back from Right to Left. After that, it slid in perfectly. Just a little resistance. The rear has 2 set screws built into it, and they snug it up very nicely. Not only is it easy, but it makes alignment a breeze. You can make very fine adjustments that can't really be achieved with traditional press-fit sights. I haven't use Loctite on the rear yet, as my 30s shoots a little low/left. Being my first Glock, I realize that could be operator error, but there is a very small chance it's an issue with the mechanical accuracy. So, I haven't committed to the Loctite yet in the event I want to drift it. Yes, I know the "hold" of Blue Loctite can be more easily removed with a little bit of force, but I don't want to use it until I decide on the orientation of the Rear Sight. The main reason being that I do not believe the Set Screws can be removed from the housing. Thus, I wouldn't be able to clean up the residue on the screws. Maybe that doesn't matter, but I do that with any screws I have to remove and remount. Loctite aside, the Rear is very snug with just the Set Screws. Again, I've bumped it on door frames, dropped it, and done one-handed manipulations. It stays exactly where I placed it.
I suppose the short version is:
-The installation is very easy. Probably the easiest of any pistol sights I've installed
-Don't be afraid to take their advice and shave a little off the rear if it is too tight to push in with your fingers. Just take it slow. A little filing goes a long ways
-Loctite or not, these sights stay very secure.
One final thought, take a serious look at the Standard Dot XS. It's very easy to pick up and track and can offer some better precision at longer ranges. A lot of people will say that they aren't very accurate outside of "you to me" distances, but I don't think that's true in practice. It really comes down to getting a Sight that suits your eye and mind. As expected, at close distance it is remarkably quick.
Yes, on the XS rear with tritium, it's supposed to be a slip fit, held in by red Lock-Tite. The tritium vial is situated vertically in the center of the sight which would cause it to easily break if it was tight in the dovetail.
I never use a punch with any tritium (or other) sight. Proper fitting and a proper pusher is the best method of installation.
Mysteryman
07-05-16, 23:31
Op, before you blow $100, knock your rear sight out, and paint the front white. Go burn some rounds like that and see if it works for you. That's very close to the XS sight picture and doesn't cost anything.
Except with no rear sight you have no indication of pitch whereas the XS rear sight provides that.
MM
As mentioned, they come with a nylon punch. I used it once on a non-tritium rear, shattered it trying to get the sight in. Used one of my brass punches. This was before I went to just pushing them in.
However, I don't use a standard pusher, and I have absolute control over sight movement, down to 001".
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Except with no rear sight you have no indication of pitch whereas the XS rear sight provides that.
MM
Very little. The rear sight is a good deal shorter than the front so you pretty much have to align the front dot on top of the rear stripe and get the little gap between 'em the right size. Ridiculously slow and imprecise.
I installed a set of XS Big Dot Sights on my Kimber Pro Carry II (came with black sights on a carry gun, go figure). I was most nervous about the vice marking up the slide. Someone recommended holding the slide in the vice with brass jaws and a piece of paper. I tightened the vice just enough to old the slide firmly, but no more. Other than that, I followed the instructions that came with the sights and everything went smoothly. There was not a single mark on my slide and the job looks like a professional did it. Go for it.
Mysteryman
07-06-16, 21:46
Very little. The rear sight is a good deal shorter than the front so you pretty much have to align the front dot on top of the rear stripe and get the little gap between 'em the right size. Ridiculously slow and imprecise.
I've been using big dots for well over a decade and been cleaning house at matches with them. They are not target sights they are fighting sights and they excel at rapid acquisition and moving targets. Sight alignment is sight alignment, if you can find the proper sight alignment/ sight picture then you're going to make hits. Three dot sights, one dot sights, v notch big dot sights, it doesn't make any difference. As your post alluded to it's all about finding the front sight and no front sight is easier to find than a big dot. The big dots have the advantage of having a very large and easy to see/find front sight that is designed to sit above(on top) of the rear sight. Whether or not your sight alignment is precise enough for the range/situation you're shooting and whether or not your fundamentals are sound is an entirely different matter. That being said if your drawstroke is consistent then finding the front sight with standard notch sights is a non issue.
MM
Mysteryman
07-06-16, 21:49
As mentioned, they come with a nylon punch. I used it once on a non-tritium rear, shattered it trying to get the sight in. Used one of my brass punches. This was before I went to just pushing them in.
However, I don't use a standard pusher, and I have absolute control over sight movement, down to 001".
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Sounds like you didn't read the installation instructions. The sights are not to be drifted in, they should snug but installed by hand. If the sights are too tight they are to be lightly filed/sanded until they slip in with only hand pressure.
MM
I've been using big dots for well over a decade and been cleaning house at matches with them. They are not target sights they are fighting sights and they excel at rapid acquisition and moving targets. Sight alignment is sight alignment, if you can find the proper sight alignment/ sight picture then you're going to make hits. Three dot sights, one dot sights, v notch big dot sights, it doesn't make any difference. As your post alluded to it's all about finding the front sight and no front sight is easier to find than a big dot. The big dots have the advantage of having a very large and easy to see/find front sight that is designed to sit above(on top) of the rear sight. Whether or not your sight alignment is precise enough for the range/situation you're shooting and whether or not your fundamentals are sound is an entirely different matter. That being said if your drawstroke is consistent then finding the front sight with standard notch sights is a non issue.
MM
I tried 'em and I thought they sucked. Especially for competition where the only shots I really used the sights on were the low probability shots that required precision. Big sloppy 'combat' sights are conducive to big sloppy shooting.
I had them on my Glock 19 when I first bought it. Previous owner had them installed.
At the time, I didn't see the the advantage behind the sights and I kind of wish I gave them another shot.
These things seem to have two followings love or hate. I have a set on my g19 and love them. They are not precision sights you will not win bullseye competitions with them but in both eyes open Combat shooting where the goal is to put lead on a COM hit you will be faster with these
On an unrealistically large qual target maybe.
Sounds like you didn't read the installation instructions. The sights are not to be drifted in, they should snug but installed by hand. If the sights are too tight they are to be lightly filed/sanded until they slip in with only hand pressure.
MM
Oh, I read the instructions.
I just abhor sights that fit in a dovetail with hand pressure. Glocks in particular, have such a hard surface to the steel that the set screw will not bite, you rely on tension. With a tiny little wrench, at that.
I push them in, they do not move later.
No, you most likely cannot adjust them at home. However, I tell every customer I install sights for, that if you find them to be off, windage wise, note how much, in what direction, and at what distance, and come back. They will be adjusted at no extra charge.
As I mentioned, I can control sight movement to 001". I will mathematically figure out the necessary amount of adjustment, and do it. So far, no one has been back twice. In fact, very few have to come back the first time.
A fighting pistol is a battle implement. It should not need adjustment, simply because it was dropped.
Do what you want/need at home. If you're giving me your hard earned money, I'm giving you the most reliability I can.
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I appreciate the lively discussion! With regard to sight selection for the G19, my goal here is strictly for a defensive handgun. I am not trying to shoot bullseyes at 25 yards. Frankly, I hope I never, ever have to fire my Glock in anger. For a civilian though, the data suggests that if I were to fire it, it would be in pretty darn close, such that the difference between a 9 ring and the 10 ring is not likely to be critical. In contrast, time to first round on target is often the deciding factor. So, though not everyone loves the Big Dots for all applications, they seem to have a pretty big following for my needs- high visibility with fast target acquisition.
I did order a set and will attempt the installation this weekend-without a rear sight pusher. I'll report back and let folks know how it goes!
brushy bill
07-07-16, 13:08
I tried 'em and I thought they sucked. Big sloppy 'combat' sights are conducive to big sloppy shooting.
This was my experience exactly. Absolutely the worst firearms related purchase I've made and that's saying something.
8 inch plates from the holster quickly with both eyes open are no problem. Do you want to put holes in bad guys quickly or do you want to shoot tiny groups. We have had so many people come through my companies advanced classes do incredibly well that it made me want to try it and I was really surprised at how easy they are to use. If you are good at to eyes open point shooting you will pick these up quickly. If all you do is one eye closed sight picture they are tougher to master
You either love em or hate em. For me personally I'm not a fan but the concept is sound. For me and a lot of other folks the Trijicon HD's or Ameriglo Hack's give fast sight accquisition but still allow for a decent amount of distance accuracy. Not to say that it can't be had with the XS sights but for most people they have a harder time with distance shots. Now in reality those people might suck at 25yds regardless of sights so YMMV.
It's perplexing how many people dismiss the XS sights in nearly every thread they are mentioned. What one puts on their pistol all comes down to personal preference; driven by how their mind process the world around them. No single set of pistol sights will work for everyone. Just because they didn't work for you, does not mean they're garbage and won't work for others. It's fine to share a personal experience, but that's all it is. This logic can apply to just about anything. To some, they see something like XS Sights and think, "wow, these really make sense". Others will think the opposite. If you fall in the former camp, don't be dissuaded.
Mysteryman
07-07-16, 23:37
Oh, I read the instructions.
I just abhor sights that fit in a dovetail with hand pressure. Glocks in particular, have such a hard surface to the steel that the set screw will not bite, you rely on tension. With a tiny little wrench, at that.
I push them in, they do not move later.
No, you most likely cannot adjust them at home. However, I tell every customer I install sights for, that if you find them to be off, windage wise, note how much, in what direction, and at what distance, and come back. They will be adjusted at no extra charge.
As I mentioned, I can control sight movement to 001". I will mathematically figure out the necessary amount of adjustment, and do it. So far, no one has been back twice. In fact, very few have to come back the first time.
A fighting pistol is a battle implement. It should not need adjustment, simply because it was dropped.
Do what you want/need at home. If you're giving me your hard earned money, I'm giving you the most reliability I can.
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I've installed no less than 14 sets of big dots on all of the 9mm Glock family as well as AA conversions and not one needed to be adjusted beyond mechanical zero in the dovetail. adjusting sights is often a case of covering up poor shooter form.
As for the precise adjustment you offer I applaud someone who puts that much passion into their craft. That being said there was a great article in SWAT magazine a few months back where one of the authors shot his M&P for groups with his sights intentionally held all the way left/right and cutting the front sight in half as well as half a front sight high. Groups were at 25 yards, and the results were eye opening. Regardless of the poor alignment used all shots landed on a standard IPSC silhouette. That's with absolutely horrid sight alignment, I fail to see how 0.001" adjustments have any noticeable effect on anything.
This was my experience exactly. Absolutely the worst firearms related purchase I've made and that's saying something.
A poor craftsman blames his tools..
8 inch plates from the holster quickly with both eyes open are no problem. Do you want to put holes in bad guys quickly or do you want to shoot tiny groups. We have had so many people come through my companies advanced classes do incredibly well that it made me want to try it and I was really surprised at how easy they are to use. If you are good at to eyes open point shooting you will pick these up quickly. If all you do is one eye closed sight picture they are tougher to master
Well said. On a side note, if you're not shooting with both eyes open you're handicapping yourself.
You either love em or hate em. For me personally I'm not a fan but the concept is sound. For me and a lot of other folks the Trijicon HD's or Ameriglo Hack's give fast sight accquisition but still allow for a decent amount of distance accuracy. Not to say that it can't be had with the XS sights but for most people they have a harder time with distance shots. Now in reality those people might suck at 25yds regardless of sights so YMMV.
The HD's are nearly identical in concept with the exception of the elevated front sight riding above the rear sight in the case of the big dots. You nailed it with regards to people having issues using big dots at distance. A poor shooter will struggle with the large front sight of the big dots. As mentioned above the big dots are designed for rapid defensive shooting, not long range or precision pistol work.
It's perplexing how many people dismiss the XS sights in nearly every thread they are mentioned. What one puts on their pistol all comes down to personal preference; driven by how their mind process the world around them. No single set of pistol sights will work for everyone. Just because they didn't work for you, does not mean they're garbage and won't work for others. It's fine to share a personal experience, but that's all it is. This logic can apply to just about anything. To some, they see something like XS Sights and think, "wow, these really make sense". Others will think the opposite. If you fall in the former camp, don't be dissuaded.
Personal preference plays a major role but the science behind what your body does during a defensive/offensive situation is fact. With that data the big dots were developed to offer an easy to find front sight regardless of lighting conditions that would permit acceptable hits on target at most common engagement ranges. A combat sight as it were.
MM
What I took away from Big Dot sights is that they were great for all the shots where I wasn't going to use the sights anyway, and not so great for when I needed sights.
That doesn't make me a poor craftsman blaming tools, or not understanding the human body. It was an honest assessment from a person who is very interested in shooting and sights. I've tried almost every combination of sights you can buy over the years, used them in competition, all sorts of training, and lots of low/no light. The Big Dots hurt my performance and were more difficult for me to use for every task. I can see the merit for some people with extremely degraded vision.
Big dots are dumb. My favorite Hackathorn saying is; "They are affective at distances where sights are not needed!"
C4
There are lots and lots of people who have reported good results with the Big Dot sights, including some in this very thread. This data would suggest that they do work and are effective for many people, making them fall into the "not dumb" category. That being said, everyone is certainly entitled to his own opinion. I appreciate that the large front sight likely comes at the cost of less precision and accuracy at extreme distances, but in return, purports to offer faster target acquisition. In real world, civilian use of force, that acquisition speed is generally more important than pinpoint accuracy capability at long range. For me, I think it would be unlikely that I would need to fire at a range of greater than 25 yards with a pistol.My goal is an effective sight system to be used defensively as my eyes age. If my goal were target shooting at distance or competition, my choice of sights would likely be different. Regardless, the Big Dots should be delivered today, and I'll try to get them installed and tested soon! Will let you all know if I can make them work for me.
There are lots and lots of people who have reported good results with the Big Dot sights, including some in this very thread. This data would suggest that they do work and are effective for many people, making them fall into the "not dumb" category. That being said, everyone is certainly entitled to his own opinion. I appreciate that the large front sight likely comes at the cost of less precision and accuracy at extreme distances, but in return, purports to offer faster target acquisition. In real world, civilian use of force, that acquisition speed is generally more important than pinpoint accuracy capability at long range. For me, I think it would be unlikely that I would need to fire at a range of greater than 25 yards with a pistol.My goal is an effective sight system to be used defensively as my eyes age. If my goal were target shooting at distance or competition, my choice of sights would likely be different. Regardless, the Big Dots should be delivered today, and I'll try to get them installed and tested soon! Will let you all know if I can make them work for me.
Don't get me wrong, I "could" make them work. The question is why?? Another thing to understand when reading reviews/opinions on the net, is that not all opinions are equal. Just because someone says something works, doesn't mean that it is good idea, quality or that they will work for you. It would be wise to look at what high end professional instructors use on their work/training guns. None of the best instructors in the world use or recommend them. That would be a clue I think. (Pannone, Hackathorn, Vickers, Pat, etc).
Accuracy is king. Most all advanced shooting schools (especially CQB and pistol) required very accurate shots. Why? Because most no one will ever give you a full body to shoot at. They are behind cover, moving, etc. All you get is something the size of a 3X5 card at 25yds to put rounds on. Do you want your equipment to hinder you from being able to hit the target?? I don't.
My suggestion is to take some pistol classes and see if these sights are a good idea or not. The more advanced (read harder) the classes are, the less you will be interested in these sights.
C4
Sights came in today, and installation was smooth and uneventful without a pusher device. Package included a little front sight wrench, a plastic punch for helping remove the factory rear sights, and some red locktite. Included instructions were superb. Will try to test this weekend.
I honestly can't shoot good enough to give up any precision. I can always go faster and let that happen on it's own!
I've installed no less than 14 sets of big dots on all of the 9mm Glock family as well as AA conversions and not one needed to be adjusted beyond mechanical zero in the dovetail. adjusting sights is often a case of covering up poor shooter form.
As for the precise adjustment you offer I applaud someone who puts that much passion into their craft. That being said there was a great article in SWAT magazine a few months back where one of the authors shot his M&P for groups with his sights intentionally held all the way left/right and cutting the front sight in half as well as half a front sight high. Groups were at 25 yards, and the results were eye opening. Regardless of the poor alignment used all shots landed on a standard IPSC silhouette. That's with absolutely horrid sight alignment, I fail to see how 0.001" adjustments have any noticeable effect on anything.
A poor craftsman blames his tools..
Well said. On a side note, if you're not shooting with both eyes open you're handicapping yourself.
The HD's are nearly identical in concept with the exception of the elevated front sight riding above the rear sight in the case of the big dots. You nailed it with regards to people having issues using big dots at distance. A poor shooter will struggle with the large front sight of the big dots. As mentioned above the big dots are designed for rapid defensive shooting, not long range or precision pistol work.
Personal preference plays a major role but the science behind what your body does during a defensive/offensive situation is fact. With that data the big dots were developed to offer an easy to find front sight regardless of lighting conditions that would permit acceptable hits on target at most common engagement ranges. A combat sight as it were.
MM
I would agree, most adjustment is for the shooter, not the firearm.
While I can control the movement to 001", no, that small amount off likely won't be noticed. But, I will have it within about 003".
Why?
Because it is one of the variables of accuracy. The less the sights are off, the less that one variable can matter. Are most shooters capable of using it? Probably not. But that part is beyond my control.
The swat magazine shooter, how does he compare to the average gun owner? So, I give somebody like Todd Jarrett a pistol with no sights at all, and he smokes the target. Now, I can argue why even buy big dot sights? Just grind off what's there, 'cause you don't need any.
I had a pistol with the big dots on them, a g21. I found the same as a few others, they excel at distances and targets where anything, or nothing, works as well. I did not like the limitations, and removed them, and haven't put them on anything else.
If they work for you, use them. But, they aren't as magical as some would have it.
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Range Report
Installation was smooth. Got XS Big Sights, tritium front and rear installed on the G19 without event yesterday. Went to the range this morning and shot against my G19 with TruGlo tritium/fiberoptic sights (green, 7+ years old).The Big Dot is, well, BIG. It does make target acquisition fast, just as anticipated. I did head to head shooting on paper at 5 yards range to simulate my desired application. Initially, the TruGlo's had more in the 10 ring than the Big Dots, but in time, the groups were pretty close- certainly not enough difference to make any outcome difference in a close range pistol duel. Testing limitations: (1) I've had thousands of rounds of experience with the TruGlo's, so I am used to them. Have only about 150 rounds with the Big Dots. (2) Did not use a timer. I suspect (though I don't yet have quantifiable evidence) that time to first round on target will be better with the Big Dots. It's super easy to find with your eye. I took a few shots at a steel torso from 25 and 50 yards and after a few rounds could figure out how to get them on target, but I'd agree with most that these are not optimal for distance shooting. The sheer size of the monster front sight precludes pinpoint accuracy and precision at those distances. Overall, I'm very pleased with the Big Dots and look forward to getting some more experience with them to see what they are capable of doing.
Mysteryman
07-09-16, 18:37
I would agree, most adjustment is for the shooter, not the firearm.
While I can control the movement to 001", no, that small amount off likely won't be noticed. But, I will have it within about 003".
Why?
Because it is one of the variables of accuracy. The less the sights are off, the less that one variable can matter. Are most shooters capable of using it? Probably not. But that part is beyond my control.
The swat magazine shooter, how does he compare to the average gun owner? So, I give somebody like Todd Jarrett a pistol with no sights at all, and he smokes the target. Now, I can argue why even buy big dot sights? Just grind off what's there, 'cause you don't need any.
I had a pistol with the big dots on them, a g21. I found the same as a few others, they excel at distances and targets where anything, or nothing, works as well. I did not like the limitations, and removed them, and haven't put them on anything else.
If they work for you, use them. But, they aren't as magical as some would have it.
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No sights are magical, in fact sights do not make the shot, the shooter does. Iron sights are simply a diagnostic tool for the shooter similar to the speedometer in your car. Both tell you what you should already know, that is that you're not speeding and that your pistol is properly oriented at the target as you desire. The margin for error with regards to your sight alignment is greater with big dots which allows you to shoot faster with acceptable results. The same principle applies when looking for your front sight as the big dot is well, big. If your presentation is consistent than you don't need sights at all for the majority of shots. Iron sights and their proper alignment are necessary for greater distances and/or smaller targets. Now the big dots are not the greatest for distance work but they are more than adequate for the 25 +/- metres a pistol is intended for. With that being said making precision shots with big dots is not unobtainable.
MM
brushy bill
07-20-16, 22:11
As for the precise adjustment you offer I applaud someone who puts that much passion into their craft.
A poor craftsman blames his tools..
If your presentation is consistent than you don't need sights at all for the majority of shots.
Interesting...you applaud those who want to be precise, but if your fav isn't the tool they are being precise with, it is the craftsman (despite knowing nothing about the individual). Most excellent post. Lets hope we can all reach your level of precision. I'll strive for it with something other than the big dots. Maybe I'll follow your suggestions and use no sights at all. Sounds like a solid plan. Certainly convinced me an MOS equipped pistol is ludicrous.
Cincinnatus15
07-21-16, 13:40
Just figured I throw my two cents in and for the OP, I'm glad you like them. I've had big dots probably three different times over the past few years. They were my go-to sights for "defensive" use. That being said, when I decided to try and increase my accuracy capabilities, the big dots weren't doing me any favors. I could make "combat effective hits" out to 25+ yards, but head shots at 25 yards just weren't happening. I switched to the Ameriglo Defoor sights and boom, head shots at 25 yards proved to be no great feat. That being said, I still would like to try a defensive sight that will jump out at me yet still allow decent accuracy. I've heard good things about the Hackathorn sights made by Ameriglo so I may give them a shot one of these days..
Because some want accuracy, and want all of the variables contributing to accuracy as controlled as possible, and then there's the thing of spending a bunch of money on sights, and then paying someone to install them. After all, if you're paying, you want it right, don't you?
I finally remembered to figure out just how important being able to very finely adjust sights may or may not be.
I took out my hi power, and it's sight radius is 6 3/8". This should be a good length for a full size pistol.
Distance is 25yds to target, which is 900".
If the sights are 4" off to either side, the rear sight is moved 028" to set it perfect. For every 1" at 25yds with this sight radius, 007" of movement is required to correct it.
I went out into the shop, and was looking for a midsized glock, but none around. I grabbed the kahr cw9, and measured it. Sight radius is 5". Same 25yd target distance.
If it is 4" off in either direction, 022" of movement is needed to set it to center. For every 1" off, 0055" is needed to correct it.
So, is 001" really too anal? A mere 003" is a full 1/2" off on the smaller pistol, and just under 1/2" off on the larger one. For those not familiar with thousandths of an inch, 1/16" is 0625".
Double that if you can shoot a handgun at 50yds.
Some may not care. Some very much do. I suppose it depends on what you're shooting at, and how important it is that you hit it.
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Mysteryman
07-21-16, 19:10
Interesting...you applaud those who want to be precise, but if your fav isn't the tool they are being precise with, it is the craftsman (despite knowing nothing about the individual). Most excellent post. Lets hope we can all reach your level of precision. I'll strive for it with something other than the big dots. Maybe I'll follow your suggestions and use no sights at all. Sounds like a solid plan. Certainly convinced me an MOS equipped pistol is ludicrous.
You misunderstood my point. People knock on all kinds of sights as being inaccurate. What I'm saying is that it's almost always the shooter who sucks and needs work, not the sights or gun. Accurate shots with big dots is more than doable, it just doesn't offer the finer point of aim of a traditional set of sights. This translates into less margin of error when using them. Having your sights properly zeroed(usually centred in the notch) and striving for accuracy is always desirable. Worrying about the 0.001" when doing so is a waste of effort as the performance of the shooter, the ammo, and the gun will never notice the difference. Let's not lose sight of the fact that we are talking about SERVICE guns used for DEFENSIVE purposes. Many people who have been involved in shootings report having never seen the sights at all. That doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to find and use them. Making a precision shot regardless of the sights used is a time consuming process. That being said a set of sights or rather a large easy to find(see fast to acquire) front sight is going to be a benefit over a finer one that requires more time to acquire. The blend of speed and accuracy is at play and one must compensate for the other. If you don't have the time for the precision shot then you take whatever you can get, and the big dots offer you a fast and easy to find aiming point with their big dot front sight. If you haven't done any force on force training with simunitions I highly recommend it. The physiological phenomenon that occurs is eye opening to say the least. What you can do on the range now and what you think you'll be able to do under stress are radically different.
Because some want accuracy, and want all of the variables contributing to accuracy as controlled as possible, and then there's the thing of spending a bunch of money on sights, and then paying someone to install them. After all, if you're paying, you want it right, don't you?
I finally remembered to figure out just how important being able to very finely adjust sights may or may not be.
I took out my hi power, and it's sight radius is 6 3/8". This should be a good length for a full size pistol.
Distance is 25yds to target, which is 900".
If the sights are 4" off to either side, the rear sight is moved 028" to set it perfect. For every 1" at 25yds with this sight radius, 007" of movement is required to correct it.
I went out into the shop, and was looking for a midsized glock, but none around. I grabbed the kahr cw9, and measured it. Sight radius is 5". Same 25yd target distance.
If it is 4" off in either direction, 022" of movement is needed to set it to center. For every 1" off, 0055" is needed to correct it.
So, is 001" really too anal? A mere 003" is a full 1/2" off on the smaller pistol, and just under 1/2" off on the larger one. For those not familiar with thousandths of an inch, 1/16" is 0625".
Double that if you can shoot a handgun at 50yds.
Some may not care. Some very much do. I suppose it depends on what you're shooting at, and how important it is that you hit it.
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Can you shoot well enough to notice that supposed 1/2" of error in sight alignment? I say supposed because there was an article in SWAT magazine a few months back where the author(I want to say Brent. Wheat) intentionally misaligned the sights on an M&P and an M&P compact. He pushed the front sight all the way left in the rear sight notch, all the way right, half a front sight above the rear and half the front sight below the top of the rear sight. All shots fired at 25 yards. The groups..... All within the C zone on an IPSC silhouette. Those are pretty extreme sight alignment errors and yet the hits were still effective.
MM
If all one cares about is hitting the c zone at 25yds or less, then no, it does not matter. In this case, all that is needed to install any sights is a 3lb hammer and a dulled cold chisel.
I'd really like to know how anyone can guarantee that the only shots ever required will be in the c zone at 25yds or less. It's nice to know you will have that much control over your defense situation.
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Cincinnatus15
07-22-16, 08:56
I'd really like to know how anyone can guarantee that the only shots ever required will be in the c zone at 25yds or less. It's nice to know you will have that much control over your defense situation.
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This is why I switched. Also I heard/read various instructors (LAV included) who do NOT recommend them. I think Rob Pincus said on one of his videos that sights are supposed to increase accuracy, not speed, generally speaking. I could hit a man size silhouette at 50 yards with them most of the time. But the room for error was just too large. It's hard to have consistent sight alignment without some constraints on the rear sight. And IMO, this is irresponsible for a carry weapon. If I have to make a shot (at any distance) I have to consider my target, what's beyond it, and I damn sure don't want to risk shooting a good guy who's around my target because my sight alignment was off just a hair. I didn't totally hate them, in fact I really like the concept of them, but when it comes to all practical purposes and my desire to improve my accuracy (accuracy is king), they just didn't cut it for me. I could see myself putting them on a gun for my spouse in the future so she could have something to grab in case of an emergency and not require much thinking just point and press. This is assuming she doesn't of course that she won't carry in the house like me.
And, that's pretty much my point. While I have yet gotten the opportunity to take a force on force class, the aars I have read from those who have, at contact to 7yds or so, mostly no one even uses sights, as you are close enough and speed is needed. So set your sights for the longer distances, where accuracy is more important.
Suppose you hear shooting at the mall, and you go looking for your wife, to get her and you out. Your plan is to hopefully just run away with her. When you round a corner, gun in hand, you see her, next to the shooter, and he grabs her.
You gonna walk away, or shoot him in the face?
Is c zone accurate enough to shoot him in the face, over her shoulder?
Maybe you could take that shot, maybe not. Why hamper yourself with your equipment? That's the one variable you can narrow down before the fight even starts.
Aim small, miss small.
The stress of do or die is going to rob you of a good portion of your skill anyways.
The big dots work for some, by all means, use them. A big sight you can see is better than a small one you cannot.
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My understanding is both accuracy and time until you get rounds on target are both potentially important, depending on the scenario. A sight system that affords quick acquisition may be preferable under certain circumstances. In contrast, if you are trying to pull off a long range shot under stress, the accuracy component may be more critical. What is the more likely scenario in civilian shootings- a shot at close range or one at extreme distance? How long do most civilian gunfights last? How critical is speed in those incidents? Inside my home, it is hard to imagine a 25 yard shot that I'd need to make. A 3 or 5 yard shot is far more likely, where extreme precision is likely not necessary, but speed will be. I don't pretend to know the answer to every situation, and I hope I never have to pull the trigger for real use, but it seems generally unnecessary to have to shoot bullseyes when just hitting the chest is fine- just do it before the other guy pulls the trigger!
Mysteryman
07-23-16, 13:36
If all one cares about is hitting the c zone at 25yds or less, then no, it does not matter. In this case, all that is needed to install any sights is a 3lb hammer and a dulled cold chisel.
I'd really like to know how anyone can guarantee that the only shots ever required will be in the c zone at 25yds or less. It's nice to know you will have that much control over your defense situation.
Sent from my SGP612 using Tapatalk
I never said anything about 25 yards being the max distance you will ever encounter. I insinuated that 25 yards is the generally accepted practical distance for employment of a handgun. Beyond that distance the average shooters skill set rapidly diminishes.
This is why I switched. Also I heard/read various instructors (LAV included) who do NOT recommend them. I think Rob Pincus said on one of his videos that sights are supposed to increase accuracy, not speed, generally speaking. I could hit a man size silhouette at 50 yards with them most of the time. But the room for error was just too large. It's hard to have consistent sight alignment without some constraints on the rear sight. And IMO, this is irresponsible for a carry weapon. If I have to make a shot (at any distance) I have to consider my target, what's beyond it, and I damn sure don't want to risk shooting a good guy who's around my target because my sight alignment was off just a hair. I didn't totally hate them, in fact I really like the concept of them, but when it comes to all practical purposes and my desire to improve my accuracy (accuracy is king), they just didn't cut it for me. I could see myself putting them on a gun for my spouse in the future so she could have something to grab in case of an emergency and not require much thinking just point and press. This is assuming she doesn't of course that she won't carry in the house like me.
XS sights are designed to excel in making accurate(combat effective) hits under very limited time frames. Effective hits under stress.
And, that's pretty much my point. While I have yet gotten the opportunity to take a force on force class, the aars I have read from those who have, at contact to 7yds or so, mostly no one even uses sights, as you are close enough and speed is needed. So set your sights for the longer distances, where accuracy is more important.
Suppose you hear shooting at the mall, and you go looking for your wife, to get her and you out. Your plan is to hopefully just run away with her. When you round a corner, gun in hand, you see her, next to the shooter, and he grabs her.
You gonna walk away, or shoot him in the face?
Is c zone accurate enough to shoot him in the face, over her shoulder?
Maybe you could take that shot, maybe not. Why hamper yourself with your equipment? That's the one variable you can narrow down before the fight even starts.
Aim small, miss small.
The stress of do or die is going to rob you of a good portion of your skill anyways.
The big dots work for some, by all means, use them. A big sight you can see is better than a small one you cannot.
Sent from my C6916 using Tapatalk
Who says the situation won't require a rapid accurate shot inside seven yards? What's to say your hostage scenario doesn't occur at 3 yards? When time is the deciding factor at hand, the sights won't be. You said you haven't done any force on force, I have. What people think they know and what they think they will do under stress is absolutely NOT what you can and will do under stress. Namely making head shots or other Hollywood bravado BS under stress is statistically near impossible. Between the physiological and psychological changes that occur during a "fight or flight" situation you also have to factor in your ability to shoot. Without experiencing a similar(not the same) stress induced situation and seeing first hand what you will do and how well(more accurately how poor) your shooting really is, you can't definitively discount X or Y piece of gear as relevant. During some of my F on F scenarios I couldn't recall how many people were in the room or whether or not I had a clear background before firing.
As an example lets look at the controversial video of the Tactical Response instructor/photographer who was taking pics of the students as they fired at targets that flanked him. Many think this was stupid and dangerous and blah blah blah. The only concern with that situation was whether or not the instructor trusted the students and whether or not the students trusted themselves. If we superimpose that situation onto your hostage scenario above we are left with the following. Your wife/girlfriend/child who is the hostage has absolutely no say in what action you or the scumbag take. So that leaves you the shooter to decide if you have the ability to make such a shot and if you're willing to live with the consequences if you miss and shoot your loved one. Based on most peoples absolute freak out over the Tactical Response video I suspect nearly all of us would opt to not shoot.
If you're not willing to participate in a similar exercise with shooters you believe are competent enough to make the shot then you shouldn't be testing those waters for the first time in the real world. I have stood down range while trusted(read competent) shooting buddies engage targets and vice versa. Your confidence level drops significantly when you are faced with the very real possibility of shooting your friend(s). Inversely your attention to detail such as sight alignment and trigger control goes way up. That being said there is no time restraint or risk of the bad targets shooting me or my friend(s). So the exercise isn't a true representation of what could/would happen but it's as close as you can get without significantly more risk to all involved.
As an anecdotal and informative piece of information the British SAS only train with live ammo. They clear rooms with teammates inside playing hostages and it has been reported that members of the Royal family have acted as hostages during these training exercises. There's a reason such units are much calmer and cooler than the average joe. They do this stuff for a living, they train every day and in many cases they use live ammo always. Its called stress inoculation and it takes a lot of repetitions to become comfortable with a high stress situation. Equipment is way down the list on the relevance scale by comparison.
My understanding is both accuracy and time until you get rounds on target are both potentially important, depending on the scenario. A sight system that affords quick acquisition may be preferable under certain circumstances. In contrast, if you are trying to pull off a long range shot under stress, the accuracy component may be more critical. What is the more likely scenario in civilian shootings- a shot at close range or one at extreme distance? How long do most civilian gunfights last? How critical is speed in those incidents? Inside my home, it is hard to imagine a 25 yard shot that I'd need to make. A 3 or 5 yard shot is far more likely, where extreme precision is likely not necessary, but speed will be. I don't pretend to know the answer to every situation, and I hope I never have to pull the trigger for real use, but it seems generally unnecessary to have to shoot bullseyes when just hitting the chest is fine- just do it before the other guy pulls the trigger!
I'm not a MIL or LEO guy but the saying "the situation dictates the tactics" comes to mind. The bold are the points I am trying to portray.
MM
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