View Full Version : AWB and you NFA guys......theoretical question
Let's say an AWB gets passed. NFA stuff is registered, you can't deny having it and "I sold it at a gunshow" won't fly. Let's say it encompasses ALL AW's, to include NFA stuff.
Would you destroy or inactivate your goodies before turning them over? Remember, they KNOW you have X, Y, and Z and there is no denying it. If it was me (I do not own NFA items) and I was told to hand them over I'd crush or drill a big-ass hole in any suppressors, drill a hole into the chamber and barrel of an SBR, and drill out the fire control area of any lower I had to turn in. Damned if any of THEM would get a useable item!
It's YOUR property, right? Yeah, it's a registered item but what you do with it can't be dictated by The Man.
Well the only thing thats registered on an SBR is the lower...so drilling a hole in the chamber/barrel would be silly. If anything just strip the lower down completely bare then drill some holes in that before turning it in :)
Well the only thing thats registered on an SBR is the lower...so drilling a hole in the chamber/barrel would be silly. If anything just strip the lower down completely bare then drill some holes in that before turning it in :)
At one point I thought about doing the SBR thing and I thought the barrel length and caliber was included on the NFA paperwork? I was told you can't SBR just a lower (per se).
At one point I thought about doing the SBR thing and I thought the barrel length and caliber was included on the NFA paperwork? I was told you can't SBR just a lower (per se).
Nothing other than the lower has a serial number on it so who is to know?
I think the form asks for cal and bbl length but there is nothing on the upper to trace.
Nothing other than the lower has a serial number on it so who is to know?
I think the form asks for cal and bbl length but there is nothing on the upper to trace.
Right but is it not in fact a weapon "system" (so to speak) that you're registering? Like "We want what is on your Form 4".
Right but is it not in fact a weapon "system" (so to speak) that you're registering? Like "We want what is on your Form 4".
But can't you have multiple SBR uppers for the same lower as long as the shortest one isn't shorter than what is stated on the NFA paperwork? Even if you have other lowers, you're only in deep doodoo if you put one of those uppers on a lower that isn't registered. I could have sworn I read that in the NFA section. I can't have any of that fun stuff here behind enemy lines, but a guy can wish, right? lol
Fwiw when it collapses I don't think it will matter much what your paperwork says lol
Fwiw when it collapses I don't think it will matter much what your paperwork says lol
Well yeah, but I was talking about what would (probably) be the prelude or precursor to the "collapse".
ColtSeavers
07-08-16, 15:02
Fwiw when it collapses I don't think it will matter much what your paperwork says lol
I don't think this is about a collapse, but rather what happens if alphabet soup agents/LEOs show up at your doorstep for whatever reason(s). What happens if society in heneral continues to churn on but the second amendment is repealed and guns are completely banned for instance? NFA is a registry and gives the alphabet soup agents/LEO's a place to start confscation.
I think the advice of stripping the lower down completely (before dremeling/jigsawing it) and rebuilding everything on a NON NFA lower is a good solution for those that wish to go the non blaze of glory route.
Right but is it not in fact a weapon "system" (so to speak) that you're registering? Like "We want what is on your Form 4".
Opps, sorry never got a chance to finish building.
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Opps, sorry never got a chance to finish building.
Unfortunately, this is the sad part about engraving that lower with your Trust name, etc.
Well yeah, but I was talking about what would (probably) be the prelude or precursor to the "collapse".
Anything that could happen to a 16" could happen to an SBR if you were going down that road. You can certainly say you sold or lost it. You can de-register it, say it's no longer an SBR. If they were all made illegal, it won't really matter.
So they ban everything... "I got pissed and threw it in the river, take it off your list"
It's no different than what Patrick Henry did. There were a known number of long guns and he knew the British were coming to take them so he grabbed them up and I think took them out to his place in Hanover. Everybody knew they existed. It's the same thing. NFA or not. Are you going to surrender your arms or hide them. That's all it boils down to.
There is only one person on earth that would believe all of America's guns have disappeared and we don't know where they are. His name is James Comey.
Anything that could happen to a 16" could happen to an SBR if you were going down that road. You can certainly say you sold or lost it. You can de-register it, say it's no longer an SBR. If they were all made illegal, it won't really matter.
So they ban everything... "I got pissed and threw it in the river, take it off your list"
It's no different than what Patrick Henry did. There were a known number of long guns and he knew the British were coming to take them so he grabbed them up and I think took them out to his place in Hanover. Everybody knew they existed. It's the same thing. NFA or not. Are you going to surrender your arms or hide them. That's all it boils down to.
There is only one person on earth that would believe all of America's guns have disappeared and we don't know where they are. His name is James Comey.
I see what you did there......
Unfortunately, this is the sad part about engraving that lower with your Trust name, etc.
Why is that? You will have an illegal weapon and you are concerned about a mark about a 1/4" tall x 1" wide?
The_War_Wagon
07-08-16, 16:57
Let's say...
Let's don't. :nono:
Let's say an AWB gets passed.
AWB that requires surrender of existing items?
Not gonna happen.
I agree with some of the others. If a AWB goes down the guys with the NFA stuff will be the low hanging fruit for the man to pick. I don't believe I will ever see it happen in my lifetime but I am old. The only way it could be executed is if everyone but a national police force were starving. There are too many of us and too few of them.
I have NFA weapons and have zero interest in giving them up. I feel sorry for the ones who are tasked with attempting to take them (if that ever comes).
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New Orleans, LA in August/ September 2005 proved it was possible with little to no risk for those involved.
New Orleans, LA in August/ September 2005 proved it was possible with little to no risk for those involved.
Yeah I was a little shocked how easy that went down.
I am sure there was some resistance that we didn't hear about
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Just slap a 16" upper on the lower and you're good.
New Orleans, LA in August/ September 2005 proved it was possible with little to no risk for those involved.
I'm from/ live in New Orleans and have never heard of this from anyone.
I'm from/ live in New Orleans and have never heard of this from anyone.
You never heard of the confiscations after Katrina?
You never heard of the confiscations after Katrina?
I've read about it on the internet, but not from any real people that I interact with in real life.
It didn't happen.
.
It didn't happen.
?????
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Interesting article about this in NO.
https://www.thetrace.org/2015/08/nra-hurricane-katrina-gun-confiscation/
And the response.
https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150821/a-decade-later-remember-new-orleans-gun-confiscation-can-and-has-happened-in-america
And on the OPs topic: What form are you required to submit to the ATF when you move NFA items within the same state?
If congress is lost, registration of all firearms will precede confiscation. Nfa stores lots of same info as 4473 ...
Interesting article about this in NO.
https://www.thetrace.org/2015/08/nra-hurricane-katrina-gun-confiscation/
And the response.
https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150821/a-decade-later-remember-new-orleans-gun-confiscation-can-and-has-happened-in-america
And on the OPs topic: What form are you required to submit to the ATF when you move NFA items within the same state?
So according to both articles it did indeed happen.
Not even close to the scale that has been purported.
Not even close to the scale that has been purported.
I thought you said it didn't happen? I don't recall anyone issuing an itemized list either.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-08-16, 19:28
So according to both articles it did indeed happen.
It wasn't 'rape' rape though, just confiscation around the edges for people that were asking for it.....
It wasn't 'rape' rape though, just confiscation around the edges for people that were asking for it.....
Like the old woman in the video.
No wrong in it, they were obeying orders and it was necessary.
If they decided to round up all the NFA stuff, I believe that is when the shooting starts so...
Not even close to the scale that has been purported.
Once is enough, and it happened more than once.
For the record 552 firearms were confiscated. Here is some reading for you.
https://www.nraila.org/articles/20140711/gun-confiscating-former-new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-sentenced-to-10-years-in-federal-prison
http://blog.nola.com/updates/2008/10/nra_to_settle_suit_over_katrin.html
Despite claims that they only removed guns that were in abandoned homes or stolen, there is video evidence of them taking guns from gun owners who remained in place after the storm.
Inkslinger
07-08-16, 20:05
If they decided to round up all the NFA stuff, I believe that is when the shooting starts so...
And how!
Why is that? You will have an illegal weapon and you are concerned about a mark about a 1/4" tall x 1" wide?
I was thinking that if only NFA stuff was dealt with first, I could always return it to pre-NFA status with a 16 inch upper. In reality, I need a couple of trash lowers that could be burned up and turned to molten aluminium when that gun shed catches fire. Here ATF...my SBRs, and hand them the remains. It was a tragic very hot fire.
AWB that requires surrender of existing items?
Not gonna happen.
I hope not, but the SCOTUS is only 1 Regressive away from essentially overturning the 2A, 1 election away from the Bildebeast, 1 shooting away from doing it for thee a Greater Good, etc.
Lots of anti-2A statists in government, alas, military at high ranks, who would gladly be down with imposing their views of a serf's proper place.
If they decided to round up all the NFA stuff, I believe that is when the shooting starts so...
They don't show up on a flat open battlefield lined up in ranks. They leverage threats against financial security, property, family, etc. Unless you live on a hill with clear lines of sight or something, and never sleep, they have ways of surprising their victims. Who says they would wait till you're home? The alphabet soups are basically untouchable. They already do whatever they please. It would only get worse under Hildebeast and a lapdog SCOTUS
PatrioticDisorder
07-08-16, 22:17
If they decided to round up all the NFA stuff, I believe that is when the shooting starts so...
^This
AWB doesn't mean Confiscation. It simply means sale and transfer would no longer be permitted based on the most recent proposals.
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I hope not, but the SCOTUS is only 1 Regressive away from essentially overturning the 2A, 1 election away from the Bildebeast, 1 shooting away from doing it for thee a Greater Good, etc.
Lots of anti-2A statists in government, alas, military at high ranks, who would gladly be down with imposing their views of a serf's proper place.
They don't show up on a flat open battlefield lined up in ranks. They leverage threats against financial security, property, family, etc. Unless you live on a hill with clear lines of sight or something, and never sleep, they have ways of surprising their victims. Who says they would wait till you're home? The alphabet soups are basically untouchable. They already do whatever they please. It would only get worse under Hildebeast and a lapdog SCOTUS
You can't think that way. You are trying to solve a third world problem with American solutions. If you think like that you can't even possibly win. Ask yourself one question. Why do the police and military in these tropical s!?t holes wear ski masks in the summer heat? It is not because they are cold.
The manpower to even think of doing his would be completely overwhelming to all of the alphabet agencies. The only chance to do this is to suspend posse comitatus and to get the military to back them up. That would open up an entirely new can of worms.
This would such a large undertaking that the Feds would not be able do anything else. They would have a better chance teaching innercity kids to read...... :jester:
Think about it.
Dist. Expert 26
07-08-16, 22:36
To quote Mr T, I pity the fool. They can't have mine unless they really want to earn it.
This should be in the humor section.
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You can't think that way. You are trying to solve a third world problem with American solutions. If you think like that you can't even possibly win. Ask yourself one question. Why do the police and military in these tropical s!?t holes wear ski masks in the summer heat? It is not because they are cold.
The manpower to even think of doing his would be completely overwhelming to all of the alphabet agencies. The only chance to do this is to suspend posse comitatus and to get the military to back them up. That would open up an entirely new can of worms.
This would such a large undertaking that the Feds would not be able do anything else. They would have a better chance teaching innercity kids to read...... :jester:
Think about it.
The only way it would work from a logistics stand point would be to turn the fed into the nazi Gestapo and garner the assistance of people to dime out their neighbors, basically doing their job for them. Totally far fetched and improbable but that's the only valid I could see.
They don't show up on a flat open battlefield lined up in ranks. They leverage threats against financial security, property, family, etc. Unless you live on a hill with clear lines of sight or something, and never sleep, they have ways of surprising their victims. Who says they would wait till you're home? The alphabet soups are basically untouchable. They already do whatever they please. It would only get worse under Hildebeast and a lapdog SCOTUS
Sure, for the first guys. Then word gets out. Then you have a Bundy Ranch type situation where a group digs their heels in. Then it depends upon who blinks first. Once the shooting starts, better realize if they came for them they are coming for you.
Fudds might sell out every chance they get and think the second amendment means "the right to shoot government approved firearms at ducks", but there is a reason the NFA community once had a "rogue" reputation even among gun owners. They never had to put non collapsible stocks on their firearms.
The representative group is simply too large to take on and they have a little too much "Montana mentality" in them. Some of them would gladly live in a tire hut if it meant they could still own an M-16.
Intimidating gun owners who spend $1,000 rifle is one thing, and dangerous enough. Intimidating gun owners who don't blink at spending $20,000 on a firearm in quite another thing. They aren't all rich celebrities spending fun money, for more than a few it's a serious investment in freedom.
I hope not, but the SCOTUS is only 1 Regressive away from essentially overturning the 2A, 1 election away from the Bildebeast, 1 shooting away from doing it for thee a Greater Good, etc.
Lots of anti-2A statists in government, alas, military at high ranks, who would gladly be down with imposing their views of a serf's proper place.
The way I was raised and taught, some seem to think the 2nd Amendment and the Bill of Rights are a list of gifts given to us by an omnipotent government, which they can also take away. In name only can they be taken away, but inalienable rights exist despite a government. Repeal the 2nd Amendment, diminish the 1st, 4th Amendments, etc. and it's only a change on paper. It's an individual choice as to how much infringement you will allow.
The way I was raised and taught, some seem to think the 2nd Amendment and the Bill of Rights are a list of gifts given to us by an omnipotent government, which they can also take away. In name only can they be taken away, but inalienable rights exist despite a government. Repeal the 2nd Amendment, diminish the 1st, 4th Amendments, etc. and it's only a change on paper. It's an individual choice as to how much infringement you will allow.
Yep, the BoR was intended to be a list of "hands off" items as far as government is concerned. It was never rights "granted" to us to be interpreted as needed.
I wonder if they even teach civics any more.
sandsunsurf
07-09-16, 01:55
AWB doesn't mean Confiscation. It simply means sale and transfer would no longer be permitted based on the most recent proposals.
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Just like a ban on magazines holding more than ten rounds in Cali only means future sale and tr.... errrr... wait that's right, they have to turn them in.
The only way it would work from a logistics stand point would be to turn the fed into the nazi Gestapo and garner the assistance of people to dime out their neighbors, basically doing their job for them. Totally far fetched and improbable but that's the only valid I could see.
East Germany kept tabs on pretty much everyone and did so without much in the way of technology. In reason at all it can't be done here.
The way I was raised and taught, some seem to think the 2nd Amendment and the Bill of Rights are a list of gifts given to us by an omnipotent government, which they can also take away. In name only can they be taken away, but inalienable rights exist despite a government. Repeal the 2nd Amendment, diminish the 1st, 4th Amendments, etc. and it's only a change on paper. It's an individual choice as to how much infringement you will allow.
Not up to the individual to allow anything. Any legislation and enforcement will be ruled proper same as always.
Sure, for the first guys. Then word gets out. Then you have a Bundy Ranch type situation where a group digs their heels in. Then it depends upon who blinks first. Once the shooting starts, better realize if they came for them they are coming for you.
Fudds might sell out every chance they get and think the second amendment means "the right to shoot government approved firearms at ducks", but there is a reason the NFA community once had a "rogue" reputation even among gun owners. They never had to put non collapsible stocks on their firearms.
The representative group is simply too large to take on and they have a little too much "Montana mentality" in them. Some of them would gladly live in a tire hut if it meant they could still own an M-16.
Intimidating gun owners who spend $1,000 rifle is one thing, and dangerous enough. Intimidating gun owners who don't blink at spending $20,000 on a firearm in quite another thing. They aren't all rich celebrities spending fun money, for more than a few it's a serious investment in freedom.
The news getting out would paint you as a common criminal and conservatives and the bulk of gun owners would correctly point out the only reason you were harmed by police was you didn't do everything they said and made them fear for their lives. If you think something isn't right you can take it up in court.
In some ways, we are venturing into the area of sovereign citizen thinking. I don't go that far. When I use public roads, lands, etc., I have to obey speed limits, provide evidence of financial responsibility, or in the case of BLM lands, you obey the rules because it's all part of common use. The Bundys in Nevada got in trouble because they used Public Lands without paying for grazing permits. Such permits prevent overgrazing by anyone who thinks they can run all the cattle they want on said lands, etc.
When it comes to firearms, the ownership and use is a personal thing. I'm not firing the weapon when and where I want in Public, but it is kept with me and part of my personal protection and for that of my family, or for sporting purposes. The question we could get into is whether the right to a firearm remains if you are deemed a criminal. Right now a felon cannot own them, but many still do. We are approaching a time where the definition of a criminal may expand. Maybe you're part of a militia group, gun club, Christian organization, political party, etc. All could be deemed criminals by the executive order or legislative action. At some point, you will be a criminal, but you never committed a crime in the traditional sense.
In some ways, we are venturing into the area of sovereign citizen thinking. I don't go that far. When I use public roads, lands, etc., I have to obey speed limits, provide evidence of financial responsibility, or in the case of BLM lands, you obey the rules because it's all part of common use. The Bundys in Nevada got in trouble because they used Public Lands without paying for grazing permits. Such permits prevent overgrazing by anyone who thinks they can run all the cattle they want on said lands, etc.
When it comes to firearms, the ownership and use is a personal thing. I'm not firing the weapon when and where I want in Public, but it is kept with me and part of my personal protection and for that of my family, or for sporting purposes. The question we could get into is whether the right to a firearm remains if you are deemed a criminal. Right now a felon cannot own them, but many still do. We are approaching a time where the definition of a criminal may expand. Maybe you're part of a militia group, gun club, Christian organization, political party, etc. All could be deemed criminals by the executive order or legislative action. At some point, you will be a criminal, but you never committed a crime in the traditional sense.
And at that point, I might as well act the part.
sevenhelmet
07-09-16, 15:17
At some point, you will be a criminal, but you never committed a crime in the traditional sense.
For many of us, that point will be Jan 1, 2017. It's already here fellas.
I agree with Doc Sherm though, door-to-door confiscation in the traditional sense is a non-starter, even for the most rabid anti-gun types. I expect it'll be some combination of targeted confiscation to scare people into giving up, incentives for turning in your neighbors, and buy-back programs.
For many of us, that point will be Jan 1, 2017. It's already here fellas.
I agree with Doc Sherm though, door-to-door confiscation in the traditional sense is a non-starter, even for the most rabid anti-gun types. I expect it'll be some combination of targeted confiscation to scare people into giving up, incentives for turning in your neighbors, and buy-back programs.
I've always thought that such anti-gun activity would be generational. Introduce new laws that cut off the flow of new purchases, and then slowly disarm the public with a variety of rules and regulations that make ownership impractical. During that period, the hard core owners, sportsman, hunters, target shoots and self defense groups will just lay low, operate in an underground economy of ammo, parts and firearms. That best describes my family. My wife's family operated stills during Prohibition and ran illegal booze across the Sabine River from Louisiana into SE Texas. That kind of activity is American at it's core.
Good book on the topic is Enemies Foreign and Domestic by Matthew Bracken - https://www.amazon.com/Enemies-Foreign-Domestic-Matthew-Bracken/dp/0972831010/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1468098138&sr=8-2&keywords=enemies+foreign+and+domestic
I may be wrong here but it was explained to me by an ATF agent a few years back that the NFA registry is to the items serial number and not to the owner. They can look up the owner if the have the serial number but not visa versa. So they can't throw you name into a computer and have it spit out all your NFA items you own. They have to have the serial number. Clearly they could rewrite the database but after the eforms debacle, this would take a while.
To keep on topic, let's forget SBR'd lowers.
If you had a suppressor they wanted turned in, would you destroy it or render it inoperable before handing it over? You can't "unregister" a suppressor, so it's not like the SBR debate we've been having here. Whatever it may be, would you turn in a fully working NFA item?
Good book on the topic is Enemies Foreign and Domestic by Matthew Bracken - https://www.amazon.com/Enemies-Foreign-Domestic-Matthew-Bracken/dp/0972831010/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1468098138&sr=8-2&keywords=enemies+foreign+and+domestic
I may be wrong here but it was explained to me by an ATF agent a few years back that the NFA registry is to the items serial number and not to the owner. They can look up the owner if the have the serial number but not visa versa. So they can't throw you name into a computer and have it spit out all your NFA items you own. They have to have the serial number. Clearly they could rewrite the database but after the eforms debacle, this would take a while.
Correct, but given all the information is in their possession, it wouldn't be too hard to create a searchable database where you could compile lists by serial number, manufacturer, caliber, current owner or location by state / county.
The reason that hasn't already happened is the NFA branch is basically a skeleton crew, it would be a ton of data entry (probably done by new hires) and the fact that the current registry is full of errors already. If they had Atlanta branch flunkies updating the info, it would probably do more harm than good.
In the almost 20 years I've been a FFL I have seen several examples where a Form 4 was submitted and ATF contacted the seller because they had no record at all of the firearm on the registry and requested the current Form 4 to update ATF records.
To keep on topic, let's forget SBR'd lowers.
If you had a suppressor they wanted turned in, would you destroy it or render it inoperable before handing it over? You can't "unregister" a suppressor, so it's not like the SBR debate we've been having here. Whatever it may be, would you turn in a fully working NFA item?
Mine would get lost real quick.
Mine would get lost real quick.
Wouldn't you need to show a police report filed for theft, and preferably not dated after the turn-in was enacted?
I guess one reason why I've never done anything NFA (have contemplated it before several times though) is that it's low-hanging fruit. You HAVE to account for it if asked. They may not believe the 90% of people who will say they sold all their AR's at gun shows to persons unknown, sorry don't have them anymore. But you can't do that with NFA stuff and the "it got stolen" shtick likely better damn well have some kind of police report associated with it. In fact, aren't you obligated to report NFA items stolen?
To keep on topic, let's forget SBR'd lowers.
If you had a suppressor they wanted turned in, would you destroy it or render it inoperable before handing it over? You can't "unregister" a suppressor, so it's not like the SBR debate we've been having here. Whatever it may be, would you turn in a fully working NFA item?
Of all the things they would go after I don't see suppressors being on the list. There are so many non-scary applications and so little exposure to the media that it's something I am in no way worried about.
At some point, you will be a criminal, but you never committed a crime in the traditional sense.
The only traditional sense I know of is not obeying to the letter so not obeying a new gun law would make one meet the definition of a criminal perfectly.
The only traditional sense I know of is not obeying to the letter so not obeying a new gun law would make one meet the definition of a criminal perfectly.
A breaker of unjust laws does not a criminal one make.
A breaker of unjust laws does not a criminal one make.
There has never been and never will be an unjust law in this country.
PatrioticDisorder
07-09-16, 18:29
The only traditional sense I know of is not obeying to the letter so not obeying a new gun law would make one meet the definition of a criminal perfectly.
Accept the framers put 2a in the Bill of Rights for this very reason, in fact the Revolution started as the Red Coats attempted a gun grab, Battles of Lexington & Concord.
PatrioticDisorder
07-09-16, 18:30
There has never been and never will be an unjust law in this country.
You're joking right?
Accept the framers put 2a in the Bill of Rights for this very reason, in fact the Revolution started as the Red Coats attempted a gun grab, Battles of Lexington & Concord.
Apples to oranges.
You're joking right?
Nope, otherwise the laws wouldn't get enforced.
There has never been and never will be an unjust law in this country.
Do you goosestep much dude?
Take your statist shit elsewhere.
Oh, and let me add that an unjust law and a legal law are two entirely different things. The SCOTUS upheld slavery at one time. Did that make it "just" or only "legal"? Don't give me any "at the time" bullshit answer either. In hindsight was it RIGHT?
Do you goosestep much dude?
Take your statist shit elsewhere.
Oh, and let me add that an unjust law and a legal law are two entirely different things. The SCOTUS upheld slavery at one time. Did that make it "just" or only "legal"? Don't give me any "at the time" bullshit answer either. In hindsight was it RIGHT?
If the court gives it the ok then it is 100% right. Just because you dislike it doesn't change that.
If the court gives it the ok then it is 100% right. Just because you dislike it doesn't change that.
And this is why liberty is slowly being diminished.
Don't feed the trolls.
Correct. It is much easier to just block their posts.
If the court gives it the ok then it is 100% right. Just because you dislike it doesn't change that.
I think we've had enough of your shit around here.
MountainRaven
07-09-16, 19:22
A breaker of unjust laws does not a criminal one make.
Still a criminal, as a criminal is someone who broke the law.
I suppose one could argue that violating an unjust law makes one a political criminal, rather than the universal thief, burglar, mugger, rapist, assassin, murderer, &c.
Still a criminal, as a criminal is someone who broke the law.
I suppose one could argue that violating an unjust law makes one a political criminal, rather than the universal thief, burglar, mugger, rapist, assassin, murderer, &c.
A criminal is a robber, murderer, rapist, child molester, embezzler, etc. That is a TRUE criminal. I do not care one iota what a wave of the pen makes me for possessing an object that the day before was legal. That is a CREATED criminal and anyone with a grain of sense would see it that way, especially since said object is in keeping with a Constitutional right!
A criminal is a robber, murderer, rapist, child molester, embezzler, etc. That is a TRUE criminal. I do not care one iota what a wave of the pen makes me for possessing an object that the day before was legal. That is a CREATED criminal and anyone with a grain of sense would see it that way, especially since said object is in keeping with a Constitutional right!
Alcohol and other drugs come to mind as items that were legal one day and illegal the next. Criminals handling those items were criminals like any others.
If the court gives it the ok then it is 100% right. Just because you dislike it doesn't change that.
Amazing. DUh much?
ABNAK (troll not withstanding), you mean "Malum prohibitum" and "Malum in se" , notions of which certainly been lost in the US justice system.
ABNAK (troll not withstanding), you mean "Malum prohibitum" and "Malum in se" , notions of which certainly been lost in the US justice system.
The majority of the arrests and prosecutions in this country are via malum prohibitum laws. Can't think of many who have any issues with those laws either.
Alcohol and other drugs come to mind as items that were legal one day and illegal the next. Citizens handling those items were created criminals.
FIFY
Alcohol is a very good example, and see how that whole thing went? Drugs not so much as they are in a quasi-legal state, i.e. legal at some local/state levels but still illegal at a Federal level.
Malum prohibitum arrests might be higher only because of drug offenses, if indeed that makes up the majority of arrests in this country. That said, even in the case of drug offenses, there is no Constitutional protection for illicit substance use; there just so happens to be for firearms.
No need to make assumptions:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/aus9010.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjAvpPb-ujNAhXJWCYKHeAZDgEQFggdMAE&usg=AFQjCNGni2TOQnWwAZe_8gBVvfpeADZUNA&sig2=e62QizEjpVgaX3CORvjH8g
Or
Arrest in the United States, 1990-2010 - Bureau of Justice Statistics
Quite a few things on the prohibitum list other than drugs. Just because it is enumerated doesn't mean Congress can't create legislation. Much like how many of the other prohibitum offenses aren't listed as being specifically within the scope of their authority.
No need to make assumptions:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/aus9010.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjAvpPb-ujNAhXJWCYKHeAZDgEQFggdMAE&usg=AFQjCNGni2TOQnWwAZe_8gBVvfpeADZUNA&sig2=e62QizEjpVgaX3CORvjH8g
Or
Arrest in the United States, 1990-2010 - Bureau of Justice Statistics
Quite a few things on the prohibitum list other than drugs. Just because it is enumerated doesn't mean Congress can't create legislation. Much like how many of the other prohibitum offenses aren't listed as being specifically within the scope of their authority.
Mind sharing your vocation with the forum? I have read that there are people funded to "troll", I am just waiting to me a full time professional...
Averageman
07-10-16, 09:31
If they ramp up enough juice to come for your SBR, it is either a dry run for total confiscation or the real deal.
With all the coordination it would take, it simply wouldn't be worth the time, money and eventually blood.
There has never been and never will be an unjust law in this country.
I have thought a great deal about your posts. I just want to know why you support SLAVERY? That is an evil practice and you can't think of black people as property. It was the law and you think that is was a just one? OMG. I am not sure if we need people like you on this site or in this country. Why don't you move to Mauritania and hang out with the rest of the slavers.
I have thought a great deal about your posts. I just want to know why you support SLAVERY? That is an evil practice and you can't think of black people as property. It was the law and you think that is was a just one? OMG. I am not sure if we need people like you on this site or in this country. Why don't you move to Mauritania and hang out with the rest of the slavers.
The courts were ok with it. Then when it was not convenient for the Union it was made illegal. Not sure why everyone suddenly wants to go against machinery that has worked so well in the past.
The courts were ok with it. Then when it was not convenient for the Union it was made illegal. Not sure why everyone suddenly wants to go against machinery that has worked so well in the past.
Uh, because it is a human institution and therefore is NOT infallible?
Oh, and Prohibition did not "work so well in the past". It created a whole new underground of crime that morphed into other areas once alcohol became legal again. The unintended consequences of government meddling.....
Uh, because it is a human institution and therefore is NOT infallible?
Oh, and Prohibition did not "work so well in the past". It created a whole new underground of crime that morphed into other areas once alcohol became legal again. The unintended consequences of government meddling.....
Hasn't seemed to go too bad considering we are the greatest country ever.
They stopped prohibition far too quickly instead of taking advantage of police powers that were coming in to existence to deal with enforcing the law.
Hasn't seemed to go too bad considering we are the greatest country ever.
They stopped prohibition far too quickly instead of taking advantage of police powers that were coming in to existence to deal with enforcing the law.
Yeah, you have issues. The State Uber Alles. DU would seem to be a more appropriate venue for you.
Yeah, you have issues. The State Uber Alles. DU would seem to be a more appropriate venue for you.
I am not sure why you would say that since I have not noticed support in this venue to limit police authority or immunities connected to the enforcement of laws before.
Hasn't seemed to go too bad considering we are the greatest country ever.
They stopped prohibition far too quickly instead of taking advantage of police powers that were coming in to existence to deal with enforcing the law.
What?!?! So you are a Statist? Based upon your posts this does not seem to be the right forum for you to participate.
I am not sure why you would say that since I have not noticed support in this venue to limit police authority or immunities connected to the enforcement of laws before.
There is a predominantly conservative/libertarian bent to this site that while it strongly supports GOOD police work (not bad apples) it also would resent being made felons with the wave of a pen by an administration hell-bent on destroying the 2nd Amendment. A regime comprised of the antithesis of what the majority of us believe in.
Well, this devolved quickly.
Sent from my SGP612 using Tapatalk
There is a predominantly conservative/libertarian bent to this site that while it strongly supports GOOD police work (not bad apples) it also would resent being made felons with the wave of a pen by an administration hell-bent on destroying the 2nd Amendment. A regime comprised of the antithesis of what the majority of us believe in.
Conservative yes, libertarian thankfully not.
On all issues, obey anything a police officer demands and usually you won't get shot.
Well, this devolved quickly.
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Yup. And for no good reason.
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