Trident Concepts Severing Ties with Alias Training and Security

[FlyingHunter]

Got this email from Trident Concepts today:

Austin, TX July 7, 2016...All hands,

As many of you are aware we have been utilizing the services of Alias Training and Security (ATS) over the last 20 months. Recently, we have experienced some major problems forcing us to reconsider our association with ATS. They have been delinquent on paying us for the last several classes and more than likely will not be paying us for our CQB class in Alliance, OH I am currently getting ready for this coming week.

I am not the only one who has experienced these problems, good friends and fellow trainers Mike Pannone, Pat McNamara and Craig Douglas have all had similar experience both in delinquency of revenue owed as well as lack of communications with ATS. I feel and I know I echo the others my level of frustration has reached a point where I have exhausted all avenues and the benefit of the doubt has reached the reasonable limit.

While we have done our best to communicate and come up with a reasonable solution all of our efforts have failed leading to our decision. Effective immediately I will not longer be working with ATS to promote and book our classes, all class from this point forward will be done through our own services and website.


While it should be apparent I do not have any control or influence over how ATS manages their operations, know the rest of the group and I went above and beyond trying to remedy this situation. I take this matter very seriously and I'm sure you will all see how the group and I have acted in the most professional manner, but now it is time to move forward. I count myself very fortunate to have been as successful as I have been over the years and I am indebted to the students who trust us with their training needs. This too I take very seriously and while this situation is unfortunate it in no way has affected our mission, our professionalism or our efforts.

For those of you who have registered with ATS please contact them in an effort to get refunded your class fees. Please understand, we cannot continue to carry the debt forward so as of the release of this notification all classes are canceled. I have conducted three classes to include a week long class for free as we attempted to work through this problem. My fees owed will be close to $20k so while I wish I had a better solution I am working as best as I can within the framework of reasonable solutions.

This much I can promise you, we will not fall into this situation again. We have taken safeguards and implemented new policies moving forward with the primary objective of reconstituting the classes we have the rest of the year on our schedule. If you are not able to get a refund from ATS we suggest you contact your credit card company and initiate a a claim requesting your funds be returned.

If you have any grievances with ATS I would like to hear from you so please contact us. I will do my level best to respond during next week's class so bare with me. I hope I have conveyed to you the situation and my response, I am anxious to move forward and put this behind us. Thank you for your understanding and patience and most important your steadfast support.

[johnson]

And Larry Vickers.

http://soldiersystems.net/2016/07/11/announcing-aztec-training-services/


We are proud to announce the formation of Aztec Training Services. Our mission will be to offer top tier tactical and marksmanship training and consulting services to military, government, law enforcement, and civilian markets. Our courses will be taught by highly experienced, combat proven instructors drawn from the highest levels of military special operations and law enforcement communities who are recognized subject matter experts in what they teach.

We are very fortunate to be able to announce Larry Vickers as our founding instructor and also as a managing partner in Aztec Training Services. Larry is one of the best known personalities in the firearms and tactical industry as a highly respected industry consultant, subject matter expert, tactical trainer, and TV and Youtube personality. He is a combat experienced veteran with many years in special operations including as an assaulter in Operation Acid Gambit during Operation Just Cause which was Delta Force’s first successful hostage rescue mission. He was also instrumental in the development of the HK416 and many other popular weapon accessories and tactical equipment.

Stay tuned as we continue to add to our all-star instructor roster.

Effective immediately, all remaining Larry Vickers classes on Alias Training’s schedule will be managed by Aztec Training Services. If you are a registered student at one of the upcoming Alias/Vickers classes, please contact us for more details.

[Eurodriver]

....yeah.

[lunchbox]

Craig Douglas (SouthNarc) ShivWorks have also severed ties.

[Defaultmp3]

So far, it appears the tally stands at Craig Douglas, Mike Pannone, Pat McNamara, Jeff Gonzales, and Larry Vickers. Hopefully, there will be free discourse on this topic here on M4C.

[Aray]

Funny, all of the people posting in this thread have been around for a while.

[C45P312]

Just announced on Alias FB:


It is with a heavy heart that we must announce that as of Monday July 13, 1016 Alias Training & Security Services, LLC will be closing its doors. An ongoing dispute with our merchant services financial company has made things untenable. Our apologies to all affected students, instructors, etc. To all students of upcoming classes please expect an email early this week to explain the situation in more detail.

Again our most sincere apologies,
Alias Staff

[themonk]

I have it on good authority that Alias is dissolving

[Phillygunguy]

Might explain why my class with Mike Panone was cancelled back in June . Are the instructors moving on their own? It was nice having everyone in the same group at least for convenience sake

[themonk]

I think few will go to Aztec.

[Firefly]

All I know is that it is on my bucket list to take a Battle Rifle class from Mr. Vickers. Like I read an AAR where the course was SR-25 heavy and I want to take my SR25 to that.

[Ironman8]

Not surprised at this.

Stiffing a bunch of CAG guys...probably not high on the list of things I would do!

[sadmin]

Grey Group all over again. F Alias and F Panteo. Way to screw the community out of some of the most viable training around.

I would be down for a crowdsource for Craig and Pat to recoup funds. They are indispensable resources.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[MountainRaven]

Grey Group all over again. F Alias and F Panteo. Way to screw the community out of some of the most viable training around.

I would be down for a crowdsource for Craig and Pat to recoup funds. They are indispensable resources.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

F Pantaeo? Why?

[sadmin]

http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published/info-letters/16/CSATUpdate_Jul16.pdf

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[l8apex]

Took one of Jeffs classes recently, dealing with Alias was a fun as pulling teeth. Good on Jeff and the others for moving forward without these knuckle heads.

[ramairthree]

Damn. And I was about to click and pay on a pistol course in October.

I wonder if the courses will still go but direct through the respective instructors.

[Leonidas24]

Frank Proctor jumped ship some time ago I believe as well.

[Wake27]

Hopefully this translates to lower course cost. Alias' course prices were pretty steep IMO.


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[prdubi]

Alias didn't pay my old company range rent fee in the tune 150 usd.
Kept asking for it for 2 years ...

gave up.


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[GTF425]

For what it's worth:

I was attending Mac's recent Sentinel class in SC and had a family emergency before lunch on TD1 and had to leave immediately. Working with both the staff of Shoot Logic (Tim's a stand up guy) and Alias, they were generous enough to give me a full refund within a few days.

I'm disappointed to hear the company is dissolving, but I wish the best to their instructors and am grateful for the training opportunities I've had with them in the past. For the hosts and instructors who have put the work in to bring this training to us over the years; thanks for what you do, and I'm looking forward to seeing what happens next.

[Phillygunguy]

I just can't believe they would screw over a bunch of top notch instructors like that, takes some big balls or just out right dumb as dirt hopefully this Aztec company will be a good home

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[Business_Casual]

The comment about merchant services company makes me think that they couldn't get their CC payments through, which means they wouldn't have the money to pass on to their vendors.

[30 cal slut]

Would be nice to get the full story. If what Paul is saying is true, I'm always afraid that the financial services folks are trying to put the screws to the firearms and related companies.

I hope this issue can eventually get resolved to everybody's satisfaction.

I've heard comments that customer service has been difficult with Alias (not alltogether surprising given it's been a one man show).

Having said that, this is interesting:

http://www.bbb.org/norfolk/business-reviews/security-guard-and-patrol-service/alias-training-and-security-services-in-virginia-beach-va-90047384

It's been a fun ride hosting instructors from both Grey Group and Alias in my home state/region.

Thanks to Paul I've been able to meet and host quality guys like LAV, Jason Falla, KD4, the guys from Northern Red, Mike Pannone, Pat Mac, Frank Proctor and others.

In the words of Mike Pannone, I think these gents will "fail quickly" and move on. Let's hope they can get back to what matters - quality training - and learn some lessons from these experiences.

If you folks haven't heard, the new AZTEC Training is being run by a familiar face - SMGLee - whom many left coasters have come to know and trust. I wish him the best of luck in this new endeavor.

[30 cal slut]

If there is anything I am going to take away from this ...

Paypal is antigun.

Don't do business with paypal.

[themonk]

If there is anything I am going to take away from this ...

Paypal is antigun.

Don't do business with paypal.

Where is paypal referenced in any of this?

[30 cal slut]

from what i understand, Alias switched to paypal as a credit card payment processor at the beginning of the year.

once paypal caught whiff that alias was "gun-related" - apparently paypal treated alias as if it were selling firearms and locked up alias' money for 30 days. and reportedly did this repeatedly.

it's hard to pay your bills on time if your revenues are tied up for an additional month.

[themonk]

I think you're getting bad intel. How many Alias classes have you taken where you used paypal at checkout? I never have an I just took one.

I think there were a lot of other issues going on.

[30 cal slut]

not the paypal you are thinking of.

paypal offers merchant credit card processing services to businesses. (b:b)

[themonk]

Sounds like you like the story you're given - run with it

[30 cal slut]

sound like you're reading too much into my comments.

[chuckman]

I took some classes with LAV through Paul "back in the day", fairly early days when he was in Fayetteville. Never had an issue. I appreciate that LAV, et al., are efficiently moving forward with other plans.

[SHIVAN]

Sounds like you like the story you're given - run with it

Hit me up with a message if you think I am out of line, but this sounds really personal with you, and it probably shouldn't be unless you are Pat, Mike, Larry or Chris. The discourse can be civil, or it can be shelved. There won't be an in between. Thanks for understanding.

[Alex V]

Took two classes with LAV through Alias in '15 and '14, no problems. It was super convenient to have all of those guys on one site.

[themonk]

Hit me up with a message if you think I am out of line, but this sounds really personal with you, and it probably shouldn't be unless you are Pat, Mike, Larry or Chris. The discourse can be civil, or it can be shelved. There won't be an in between. Thanks for understanding.

PM sent

[KalashniKEV]

Are the instructors moving on their own? It was nice having everyone in the same group at least for convenience sake


It was super convenient to have all of those guys on one site.

I don't get it. How is it more convenient... like, less bookmarks in your web browser?


The comment about merchant services company makes me think that they couldn't get their CC payments through, which means they wouldn't have the money to pass on to their vendors.

I don't understand the value added of having them as a middle man.

There must have been some incentive for the instructors, because why would they ever sign on?

I could declare myself the middle man of Pre-Inspection OSHA Safety Audits or FAA Flight physicals, but I wouldn't expect any Safety Professionals or Physicians to sign on and pay me a cut.

Is it just because they don't want to manage their own money?

[SomeOtherGuy]

I don't understand the value added of having them as a middle man.

From what I understand, after looking at getting setup to take credit cards a few months ago, you need both a bank account for your business and a credit card processing company. Maybe those two can be the same thing, but often they are separate: separate companies, separate contracts, requirements, fees. A lot of the CC processors won't work with businesses that are anything gun-related, probably in part due to the Obama administration "Operation Chokepoint." Paypal has a very vague policy on gun-related stuff, and they don't seem to enforce it consistently. It's possible that Alias contracted with their processor thinking it was OK, and the Paypal processor decided it wasn't, or changed their mind back and forth, or something.

I have absolutely no connection to any trainer or company listed in this thread, just saying that a company folding because its CC processor screwed them is possible.

[themonk]

I don't understand the value added of having them as a middle man.

I am under the impression and I may be wrong, that they handled all the admin pieces to the puzzle, like booking the range, to payment, customer communication, marketing, and scheduling. Clearly things like marketing are easier to do as a group.

[30 cal slut]

Cash is a business' lifeblood. No question Alias has been growing like a weed (in terms of # classes offered) over the years.

Growth takes cash. A lot of it.

I can see this business easily getting into a cash crunch if the credit card receipts are delayed/withheld, and then having to simultaneously refund deposits for several full classes that have been sold out for months.

I don't know what the full story is here, but if PayPal was blameworthy, I'd be suing them.

[chuckman]

Is it just because they don't want to manage their own money?

I used to teach a metric shit-ton of tactical medicine classes but arranging the venues, pre-reqs, etc was a pain in the butt. It would been real nice to have someone to facilitate that. Hell, I could have even taught an additional class or two just in the time I would save. But I didn't work for free and I could see billing and payment getting hung up. I could do it for a couple classes, but no way I could have done more.

[nova3930]

WTF would anybody switch to paypal for CC processing when there's this

http://www.gopai.com/nra/

[KalashniKEV]

From what I understand, after looking at getting setup to take credit cards a few months ago, you need both a bank account for your business and a credit card processing company.

I did it about a year ago, it's not very hard.

Walk into any local bank on Mainstreet, USA. They'll be happy to help set it up... because they make money.


I am under the impression and I may be wrong, that they handled all the admin pieces to the puzzle, like booking the range, to payment, customer communication, marketing, and scheduling. Clearly things like marketing are easier to do as a group.

Makes sense, but that's business.

It seems like only real small timers would be too lazy, or that their operation would lack the ability to function.

But that wasn't the case here- these weren't small timers.

It doesn't make any sense at all to me.

[26 Inf]

There must have been some incentive for the instructors, because why would they ever sign on?

Economies of scale would be my thought process - the instructors involved didn't need to have individual admin tails - someone taking orders and interfacing with consumers pre-class. Think of it as a business center where several small businesses occupy one location and split the cost of the receptionist and office manager. Additionally, the instructors didn't have to go through the hassle of vetting and hiring a person to do those tasks. If you look at the course schedules of the instructors involved, it would seem that one person could keep track of the details for all of them.

Some of those guys are on here occasionally, they certainly could weigh in if I'm full of poo-poo.

Someone posted they hoped this would result in lower prices for courses. Pretty sure prices would stay the same or go up if each of the instructors involved had to hire someone to do the admin work - all of a salary is certainly more than a fifth of a salary.

ETA: Wow I'm a slow typer, others weighed in.

[30 cal slut]

Except from a service perspective, this business is not really scalable if it's just one guy running customer service.

[prdubi]

I used paypal with my shop.

very weazy....easy

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[Alex V]

I don't get it. How is it more convenient... like, less bookmarks in your web browser?


Essentially. One stop shopping.

I want to take a carbine class but don't have one specific instructor in mind. Instead of looking at several pages, coordinating availability and class dates, I look at one page and I see a bunch of carbine classes from several instructors and I can make my choice a lot quicker.

[prdubi]

I don't believe it is true.

Just write a ****en check...

All my asked for was range fee and all Alias said for 3 years now was it's in the mail.

lying ****s.

it was for a Frank Proctor class in Oregon.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

[ramairthree]

So how is this all shaking out.

Say I was about to register for a Pat Mac class in Florida.
Is the class still going to occur?
How do I book it?
All the alias site stuff is still up,
The instructors pages still link to alias, etc.

Companies like alias exist for two reasons.

One is talent driven,
The talent likes to show up and do their thing and go home.
Some part of their pay is acceptable to them to not dick around booking rooms, ranges, etc.

The other reason is every no talent ass clown wants to make money off the talent. Whether it's a neurosurgeon coverage at a hospital, or an instructor,
The get some sort of bite on the contracts,etc. and want to make money off the talent.

[prdubi]

Alias did crap for Frank Proctor.

we arranged his hotel stay food, transport and supplies.

Alias told Frank they will compensate ...never did...

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[Wake27]

Someone posted they hoped this would result in lower prices for courses. Pretty sure prices would stay the same or go up if each of the instructors involved had to hire someone to do the admin work - all of a salary is certainly more than a fifth of a salary.

Depends on where the money was going with Alias. Sounds like they didn't really do shit, and apparently the instructor salary was pretty small, so where was all of that money going? If 30% of a course cost was just for the one or two dudes at the top of Alias, there's no reason the prices couldn't be lower and the people that actually deserve the money get it.


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[mtdawg169]

So how is this all shaking out.

Say I was about to register for a Pat Mac class in Florida.
Is the class still going to occur?
How do I book it?
All the alias site stuff is still up,
The instructors pages still link to alias, etc.

Companies like alias exist for two reasons.

One is talent driven,
The talent likes to show up and do their thing and go home.
Some part of their pay is acceptable to them to not dick around booking rooms, ranges, etc.

The other reason is every no talent ass clown wants to make money off the talent. Whether it's a neurosurgeon coverage at a hospital, or an instructor,
The get some sort of bite on the contracts,etc. and want to make money off the talent.
I would contact the instructor directly. These guys aren't webmasters and it's going to take most of them some time to adjust.

[30 cal slut]

So how is this all shaking out.

Say I was about to register for a Pat Mac class in Florida.
Is the class still going to occur?
How do I book it?
All the alias site stuff is still up,
The instructors pages still link to alias, etc.

Companies like alias exist for two reasons.

One is talent driven,
The talent likes to show up and do their thing and go home.
Some part of their pay is acceptable to them to not dick around booking rooms, ranges, etc.

The other reason is every no talent ass clown wants to make money off the talent. Whether it's a neurosurgeon coverage at a hospital, or an instructor,
The get some sort of bite on the contracts,etc. and want to make money off the talent.

I can't speak for Pat but I would guess he's not going to have that class.

Larry is honoring Alias registrations but I don't think Pat and Mike are able to absorb the losses by holding the previously scheduled classes as Larry can.

[MichaelVain]

I took Pat's class in April. I paid by Paypal for 2 people. Only I was able to attend. I had to remind them to refund me but they eventually did via PayPal as well and I was able to put those Paypal funds back into my account immediately. There was no delay in me sending funds and them receiving nor were there delays in getting me funds when they finally remembered.

I will say that Alias seemed to not too that good of a job in organizing our class for Pat. There was some confusion on how to get to the range as well as some other logistic things. The class was very good, and Mac was great, but there were some comments about things not being organized as well as they should have.

JMO

[KalashniKEV]

I took Pat's class in April. I paid by Paypal for 2 people.

That's really interesting that they used PayPal.

Seems incredibly dumb.

Plus, for a small business, you can find better terms than what they offer.

None of the large operations that accept payment through PayPal are on the same terms as what they offer on their site, obviously.

[MichaelVain]

That's really interesting that they used PayPal.

Seems incredibly dumb.

Plus, for a small business, you can find better terms than what they offer.

None of the large operations that accept payment through PayPal are on the same terms as what they offer on their site, obviously.

The reason I used Paypal was because Alias did not take AmEx from what I recall.

[Coal Dragger]

So I guess this means that the Pat Mac class I enrolled for and was fully billed for in that is supposed to happen September is no longer going to be a thing. What do you want to bet that I will not be able to get a refund either?

I guess I'm no longer going to consider "traveling" type trainers, their booking system is highly unreliable and isn't worth the financial losses when they cancel.

[GlockWRX]

So I guess this means that the Pat Mac class I enrolled for and was fully billed for in that is supposed to happen September is no longer going to be a thing. What do you want to bet that I will not be able to get a refund either?

I guess I'm no longer going to consider "traveling" type trainers, their booking system is highly unreliable and isn't worth the financial losses when they cancel.

Did you use a credit card? Tell your credit card company that services will not be rendered, see if that will help.

[Coal Dragger]

Since the billing was not obtained illegally I doubt that they will. Although I did just speak with the CC services center and entered a dispute for the 2nd half of the billing which only occurred 5 days ago. The initial booking fee/reservation I'm screwed on.

[MichaelVain]

Since the billing was not obtained illegally I doubt that they will.

I would tell them that you paid for a class that's been cancelled and you are not getting a refund. Your CC company should be able to help you.

[Coal Dragger]

They're going to try at least for the 2nd half of the billing. Since the reservation was made last fall, I'm screwed on that half since it is outside the time frame range to make a dispute.

I also emailed Paul and requested a full refund citing their own refund policy since I am over 30 days outside the class start date. Too bad Pat can't still honor the class, but a friend of mine who was also attending emailed Mac and got a response in the negative on honoring Alias Training's arrangement. Mac's advice was to attempt to obtain a refund, and contact the range management to see if another arrangement could be made. I am not optimistic that this will happen, I don't expect Mac to work for free though so he has to do what he has to do.

So I guess in the future I will only be looking at training from instructors that have their own range, and do training on their own site. Too bad because this would have been a nice option to have the instructors come closer to the students instead of the other way around.

[mtdawg169]

So I guess this means that the Pat Mac class I enrolled for and was fully billed for in that is supposed to happen September is no longer going to be a thing. What do you want to bet that I will not be able to get a refund either?

I guess I'm no longer going to consider "traveling" type trainers, their booking system is highly unreliable and isn't worth the financial losses when they cancel.
I don't know anything about the situation with Alias. But I do know a bit about merchant services. Your first and best option would be to dispute the charge with your credit card company or PayPal. Regarding Alias' statement, they implied that their account had been locked. Merchant service providers cannot seize funds, so that money has to go somewhere. Either back to the customers or eventually released to the company. Which makes me wonder how long until folks start pursuing legal paths to resolution?

[Coal Dragger]

Good to know. I am going to venture a guess that there has been some shady shit going on that lead to Alias' account being locked. Leading me to have a pessimistic view of my chances of getting a full refund. I might get some of the $$$ back, but I doubt I'll get all of it.

[themonk]

Start now and be at the front of the line. There are a lot of people that dont even know about this yet.

[ST911]

So I guess in the future I will only be looking at training from instructors that have their own range, and do training on their own site. Too bad because this would have been a nice option to have the instructors come closer to the students instead of the other way around.

The Alias situation is what it is. However, it's not fair to write off the many trainers and companies that travel around the country and successfully deliver training to thousands of students each year. Nor is it fair to the hosts and sites that work hard to make those opportunities possible for people in and around their area. As with any other consumer product, do your research, talk to other customers, and make an informed decision.

[Ironman8]

So does anybody know if the new Aztec Training Services company supposed to take the place of Alias, as far as booking instructors around the country?

[Coal Dragger]

The Alias situation is what it is. However, it's not fair to write off the many trainers and companies that travel around the country and successfully deliver training to thousands of students each year. Nor is it fair to the hosts and sites that work hard to make those opportunities possible for people in and around their area. As with any other consumer product, do your research, talk to other customers, and make an informed decision.

I see your point, but getting burned in this manner, and it looks like I'm going to get burned, makes me extremely skeptical of another arrangement like this. I am in no way questioning the ethics, morals, or dedication of the instructors. Nor am I questioning the people that provide space for classes to take place. Realistically I understand how much work is involved logistically in making these kinds of classes work, and that is why given my recent experience that I am now going to be extremely skeptical about them in the future.

I work for a multibillion dollar company that transports everything from consumer goods to coal and raw ores from A to B on a network we maintain ourselves, believe me I understand how hard it can be to get everything and everyone aligned and working towards a common goal at the right place at the right time with all the right equipment. Even with pros who do it every day for a living it is not unusual for things to go sideways. Clearly in the case of Alias Training the organizer wasn't up to the task of making things work right.

[FlyingHunter]

There is a world of difference between a firearms/tactics SME and financial/businessman SME. Sure, some can actually do both and obviously some cannot. It's important to recognize your strengths and weaknesses. Hire someone who knows what you don't know how to do...hence my good relationship with my car mechanic.

[AKDoug]

Alias did crap for Frank Proctor.

we arranged his hotel stay food, transport and supplies.

Alias told Frank they will compensate ...never did...

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

Basically the same thing happened when Frank came to teach at our range last year. I was paid the range fees in cash from Frank and one of the other guys in the class did 90% of the leg work to arrange stuff for Frank. My personal experience working with Alias to pay for the class for my son and I was a complete clusterf*ck.

This year Alias has screwed up a Pat Mac class that was supposed to be in two weeks. To Pat's credit he is still willing to come up, but the guys in the class have to come up with money to pay him, and file a fraud claim to get their money back from Alias.

[prdubi]

I emailed them daily and called weekly to the point their office lady knew me on a first name basis.
Really sad and to add further insult to injury that they would taunt me with their promises to pay. That part is the really annoying part for me, the constant promises to pay.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

[KalashniKEV]

Hire someone who knows what you don't know how to do...hence my good relationship with my car mechanic.

LOL, yeah... but does your car mechanic say, "Oil Change? Sure, I can do it tomorrow morning. Just call my agent at 1-800-UnnecessaryMiddleman and ask him how much it costs. I can turn a wrench, but getting paid is too hard for me to figure out..."

[Ryno12]

LOL, yeah... but does your car mechanic say, "Oil Change? Sure, I can do it tomorrow morning. Just call my agent at 1-800-UnnecessaryMiddleman and ask him how much it costs. I can turn a wrench, but getting paid is too hard for me to figure out..."

Actually yeah, it's called the Service Desk. They take care of scheduling & billing. The technician only turns the wrench.

[titsonritz]

LAV is a class act indeed...



Bill says:

July 11, 2016 at 04:55

Kudos to Larry for honoring the down payments for his classes. He didn’t have to do it and I doubt anyone would fault him if he chose not to.

A class act.

Reply


Larry Vickers says:

July 11, 2016 at 11:27

Thanx Bill – honestly for me it was an easy call; the students did nothing wrong in this situation and I chose to let Alias handle the class. That means I’m going to step up to the plate and do right by my students. In addition remember I have trained an estimated 5000 students in 10 years; every class has many repeat customers. They are very loyal to me and not only attend my training but also buy my products and support my online video efforts. I have many students that have attended 10 or more of my classes. I consider many of them personal friends – the last thing I was going to do was hang them out to dry. And for the record I won’t see a dime of the students deposits for the rest of the year and I am owed $30,000 by Aluas for past classes- more than any other instructor. I estimate the most I’ll get for any class for the remainder of the year is about 1/3rd pay – that ok as December will be here before you know it, 2017 will be a great year with a new company ( AZTEC training services) and I will drive on. Thanks again for all your support and I’ll see you guys at the range !! Any questions ping me a larry@vickerstactical.com

Reply

[samuse]

from what i understand, Alias switched to paypal as a credit card payment processor at the beginning of the year.

once paypal caught whiff that alias was "gun-related" - apparently paypal treated alias as if it were selling firearms and locked up alias' money for 30 days. and reportedly did this repeatedly.

it's hard to pay your bills on time if your revenues are tied up for an additional month.

Which is likely bullshit as there are several well known gunsmiths who use Paypal as part of their business and you can use Paypal to pay for most online gun forums. I think they only restrict the sale of actual firearms, but Paypal is sketchy.

[samuse]

Funny, all of the people posting in this thread have been around for a while.

Ha! I've been out of the loop for awhile and was trying to get some info for a Pat Mac class that's happening close to my AO. As soon as I found out who Alias was, I scratched that off my list.

[jdavis6576]

I'm guessing somewhere Josh Burmeister (owner of Grey Group) is quietly thinking "Told you so...". Not claiming to be "in the know" but there was much drama several years ago and some assertions from then seem to be coming to fruition.

[SHIVAN]

I'm guessing somewhere Josh Burmeister (owner of Grey Group) is quietly thinking "Told you so...". Not claiming to be "in the know" but there was much drama several years ago and some assertions from then seem to be coming to fruition.

Spill it. :jester:

[steyrman13]

Is Paul still running Alias or is it ran by a different guy? Va_Dinger was his handle here.

[samuse]

Is Paul still running Alias or is it ran by a different guy? Va_Dinger was his handle here.

Same guy.

[Ironman8]

Deleted. Not constructive...

[Ryno12]

Is Paul still running Alias or is it ran by a different guy? Va_Dinger IS his handle here.

FIFY...

And he's a "STAFF" member here, which means he can make any of you, including this thread, disappear. [emoji6]

[steyrman13]

FIFY...

And he's a "STAFF" member here, which means he can make any of you, including this thread, disappear. [emoji6]

I was thinking it was. I only know him from a transaction I had with him on here back close to when I first joined and it was a good experience even in the middle of the hurricane that hit his area hard. I hate to see trouble like this stir up....Anywhere and to anyone.

[SHIVAN]

FIFY...

And he's a "STAFF" member here, which means he can make any of you, including this thread, disappear. [emoji6]

That is not accurate.

[FlyingHunter]

As an "industry", I would consider firearms/tactics training relatively young in term of business cycles. I'm thinking the early days of Jeff Cooper and Gunsite. All industries have competing start ups in which many fail and some grow and innovation is a natural by product. This is normal business evolution. Generally, the consumer is the winner as innovators and large scale operations offer more and diversified services to the consumer. I see this as nothing more than business challenges shutting doors for those unable to grow their business, serve their customers, and understand P&L statements. It generates great opportunities for those dedicated to smart business practices such as Larry Vickers and his new start up Aztec Training or Frank Procter at WOTG or Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch. Ultimately, we consumers are the winner as these business battles shake out. Celebrate those innovators with your hard earned cash. In fact, I'm taking a Frank Proctor class this fall and if Larry Vickers can ever find an opportunity to teach within a few hundred miles of ATL, I'll be there.

[Defaultmp3]

As a note, when it's been speculated that Paul might have been the reason for the demise of Grey Group, M4Guru had this to say:


Nope, there was a reason they all went with Paul. I don't know shit about this current situation, but I observed the last one.

[Coal Dragger]

I don't know Paul personally, only talked to him on the phone to make sure my billing info was up to date a few weeks ago. Took forever for him to call me about that.

He sure as shit made sure to bill me on July 6th for the 2nd half of payment for a class in September though. Then went tits up only 5 days later.

Tell me he didn't know what he was doing.

[Ryno12]

That is not accurate.

Well, he was (or thereabouts), at one time at least.
Damn Tapatalk update and I can't see anyone's titles anymore.

ETA - I just did a search & couldn't find him & the Alias sub forum is gone too.
So everyone but Grant moved up a notch?? Congrats on the promotions guys. ;)

[mtdawg169]

Well, he was (or thereabouts), at one time at least.
Damn Tapatalk update and I can't see anyone's titles anymore.

ETA - I just did a search & couldn't find him & the Alias sub forum is gone too.
So everyone but Grant moved up a notch?? Congrats on the promotions guys. ;)

Well, Alias did announce that they dissolving. It makes sense that M4C would shut down their subforum. As for what happened to VA Dinger, we'll probably never know. M4C has never been a site that discussed private matters publicly. I'm sure we'd all love to know the low down and dirty. That's just human nature, especially in the gun forums. But thankfully that's never been M4C's style.

[P2000]

As an "industry", I would consider firearms/tactics training relatively young in term of business cycles. I'm thinking the early days of Jeff Cooper and Gunsite. All industries have competing start ups in which many fail and some grow and innovation is a natural by product. This is normal business evolution. Generally, the consumer is the winner as innovators and large scale operations offer more and diversified services to the consumer. I see this as nothing more than business challenges shutting doors for those unable to grow their business, serve their customers, and understand P&L statements. It generates great opportunities for those dedicated to smart business practices such as Larry Vickers and his new start up Aztec Training or Frank Procter at WOTG or Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch. Ultimately, we consumers are the winner as these business battles shake out. Celebrate those innovators with your hard earned cash. In fact, I'm taking a Frank Proctor class this fall and if Larry Vickers can ever find an opportunity to teach within a few hundred miles of ATL, I'll be there.
I took a Frank Proctor carbine class in January this year. No issues with booking on WOTG website. Everything went smoothly and it was a fantastic class.

[SHIVAN]

As a note, when its been speculated that Paul might have been the reason for the demise of Grey Group, M4Guru had this to say:

From where did this originate?

[chuckman]

Like many people here, I dealt with Paul quite a bit at Grey Group. I had not one whit of issue. What's going on know, I haven't a clue. But it doesn't smell good.

None of the instructors are greenhorns or naïve; they will land on their feet and get re-established and keep on keepin' on. I look forward to continue training with those guys.

[chuckman]

... if Larry Vickers can ever find an opportunity to teach within a few hundred miles of ATL, I'll be there.

Fayetteville is "within a few hundred miles of ATL." Come on up. ;)

[BTL BRN]

I would amid that selfishly I hope this opens the door to more training in southern Nevada, Alias did a number of classes in CA, but I didn't want to travel to a less than free state.

[Defaultmp3]

From where did this originate?https://c7.staticflickr.com/8/7711/27669384094_e7ea2455aa_b.jpg
Not trying to start drama, just posting what I figured to be open information.

[SHIVAN]

Thanks!

[nate89]

I think that was on one of the Primary and Secondary facebook pages.

[Sam]

This was posted by Mr. Larry Vickers on his Facebook page, for those of you that do not have access here it is:

To clarify my position for ALL of my students who registered for classes with me thru Alias;
1) I am honoring my commitment to my students - the payments and deposits any of you made are valid with me
2) The majority of classes are being conducted as scheduled - a few are being rescheduled due to scheduling conflicts ( students deposits are still good for these classes)
3) The joint trifecta class is cancelled however due to it being taught by 3 instructors that now have to pick up the pieces for the rest of the years schedule. For each student signed up for the trifecta class I am honoring a $134 credit to cover my 1/3rd of the student deposit for the class
4) For the record I am owed far more money than any other former Alias instructor and will finish the year out at about 1/3rd pay. My word is my bond so therefore I am honoring my commitment to my students who are 100% innocent in all of this
5) I have started a new training company moving forward called Aztec Training Services - the majority of my classes starting later this year and into the future will be handled thru AZTEC. And yes I am part owner of AZTEC so I corrected one problem from the Alias collapse ( website is www.aztectrainingservices.com)
6) Anyone with questions can reach me at larry@vickerstactical.com - I've heard from countless students and everyone has been very supportive and appreciative; thanks a million and I'll keep moving forward
See you guys at the range !!

[T2C]

I appreciate the fact that Mr. Vickers stepped forward and made the commitment to take care of the students who have already paid to attend one of his classes. It speaks volumes about his character.

[themonk]

I appreciate the fact that Mr. Vickers stepped forward and made the commitment to take care of the students who have already paid to attend one of his classes. It speaks volumes about his character.

Indeed!

[FlyingHunter]

Larry's new website is up! albeit still in "early development mode".

http://www.aztectrainingservices.com

Wishing him and his team the very best.

[Coal Dragger]

Larry is a class act. Wish the other guys were able to do the same, but I realize not everyone is in the same financial position.

[30 cal slut]

AZTEC is the squadron code name of the Delta team on standby.

[Wake27]

AZTEC is the squadron code name of the Delta team on standby.

I was wondering why the hell they picked that name.


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