View Full Version : Another Shooting: Berrien County Courthouse, Michigan.
Doubt it had anything to do with what has been happening, but damn, this sucks. How did they let this guy get loose?
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/07/11/two-bailiffs-gunman-dead-in-shooting-at-michigan-courthouse-sheriff-says.html
Two court bailiffs were killed and a police officer shot Monday inside a southwestern Michigan courthouse when an inmate broke loose and got his hands on a deputy's gun, officials said.
sevenhelmet
07-11-16, 15:53
I don't know, but I'm sure it's somehow our fault as gun owning citizens.
I love how the alphabet crew and their "me too!" layer's of bureaucracy just pile on what is a tragic but a very local and already ended issue.
I don't know, but I'm sure it's somehow our fault as gun owning citizens.
This... Can't wait to hear the President complain that this could have prevented by common sense gun laws.
This... Can't wait to hear the President complain that this could have prevented by common sense gun laws.
He wont complain unless one of the bailiffs could've been his son.
SeriousStudent
07-11-16, 20:35
Damn, I am very sorry to hear this. I have two friends that are bailiffs, and they are very solid people.
My thoughts and prayers are with the murdered bailiffs. I hope their families and friends receive the comfort and strength they need, and their agencies support the families.
Prayers sent that the wounded deputy makes a full recovery. I hope the Devil had Hell set on Extra Crispy when the murderer arrived.
I hate to say it but I know a lot of CCW guys who are far more careful about this sort of thing than your average courthouse deputy. That said, I get that a lot of those deputies are "old timers" doing "easy duty." But if you carry a gun, gotta figure you are always a target.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
07-11-16, 22:42
I hate to say it but I know a lot of CCW guys who are far more careful about this sort of thing than your average courthouse deputy. That said, I get that a lot of those deputies are "old timers" doing "easy duty." But if you carry a gun, gotta figure you are always a target.
No offense, but you've never done the job and do not know, at all, of what you speak. Our courts unit is a solid unit of law enforcement professionals. It's volunteer only, and vetted. It carries more responsibility than any other law enforcement unit and entails far more duties than most other units. There is no other job that puts you and your gun within arms length of unrestrained prisoners more often than a courts detail. Our courts unit is not unique, in fact it mirrors that of most other Colorado SO Courts Units. We train to prevent these things, but they do and can happen. I've had the pleasure of serving in our Courts/Transports/Fugitive Recovery unit for some time. We train hard to prevent this, we cross train with other agencies, we go to schools. But it can and does happen. Now, we regroup in our profession, pick ourselves back up, debrief, train, and go back to work.
...My thoughts and prayers are with the murdered bailiffs. I hope their families and friends receive the comfort and strength they need, and their agencies support the families.
Prayers sent that the wounded deputy makes a full recovery. I hope the Devil had Hell set on Extra Crispy when the murderer arrived.
This ^.
Damn, I am very sorry to hear this. I have two friends that are bailiffs, and they are very solid people.
My thoughts and prayers are with the murdered bailiffs. I hope their families and friends receive the comfort and strength they need, and their agencies support the families.
Prayers sent that the wounded deputy makes a full recovery. I hope the Devil had Hell set on Extra Crispy when the murderer arrived.
Eloquent. Lately my evening prayer list has getting too long. Too many young men, and women, struck down in their prime. Godspeed.
No offense, but you've never done the job and do not know, at all, of what you speak. Our courts unit is a solid unit of law enforcement professionals. It's volunteer only, and vetted. It carries more responsibility than any other law enforcement unit and entails far more duties than most other units. There is no other job that puts you and your gun within arms length of unrestrained prisoners more often than a courts detail. Our courts unit is not unique, in fact it mirrors that of most other Colorado SO Courts Units. We train to prevent these things, but they do and can happen. I've had the pleasure of serving in our Courts/Transports/Fugitive Recovery unit for some time. We train hard to prevent this, we cross train with other agencies, we go to schools. But it can and does happen. Now, we regroup in our profession, pick ourselves back up, debrief, train, and go back to work.
I'm only going by what I've seen locally several times. Having spent lots of time in the county courthouse I was always stunned by the complacency of the employees from security screeners to bailiffs. Not in every case, but enough cases to be surprised.
Of course we should keep in mind this is the same courthouse where a deputy sheriff discharged his patrol carbine inside the building when he took it out of the soft case to show it to somebody. It can be a low bar sometimes.
Of course we should keep in mind this is the same courthouse where a deputy sheriff discharged his patrol carbine inside the building when he took it out of the soft case to show it to somebody. It can be a low bar sometimes.
Holy cow.... that is sad. The deaths I mean... I hate to think we are talking Gomer and Barney gave the bad guy enough courage to think he could get away.
Moose-Knuckle
07-12-16, 04:36
AND this why when we took inmates to arraignments it was in a secure facility (not a public court room) where no weapons were allowed to include LE.
eightmillimeter
07-12-16, 12:37
No offense, but you've never done the job and do not know, at all, of what you speak. Our courts unit is a solid unit of law enforcement professionals. It's volunteer only, and vetted. It carries more responsibility than any other law enforcement unit and entails far more duties than most other units. There is no other job that puts you and your gun within arms length of unrestrained prisoners more often than a courts detail. Our courts unit is not unique, in fact it mirrors that of most other Colorado SO Courts Units. We train to prevent these things, but they do and can happen. I've had the pleasure of serving in our Courts/Transports/Fugitive Recovery unit for some time. We train hard to prevent this, we cross train with other agencies, we go to schools. But it can and does happen. Now, we regroup in our profession, pick ourselves back up, debrief, train, and go back to work.
That's awesome an all and kudos to your county for caring to that extent but that level of professionalism is rare in court security nationwide. Steyr's assessment is the norm, yours is the exception.
Moose-Knuckle
07-12-16, 16:00
That's awesome an all and kudos to your county for caring to that extent but that level of professionalism is rare in court security nationwide. Steyr's assessment is the norm, yours is the exception.
I can attest to this as well. Our bailiffs were all retirees, nothing against them but they are out of shape and didn't spend too much time at the range.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
07-12-16, 17:32
That's awesome an all and kudos to your county for caring to that extent but that level of professionalism is rare in court security nationwide. Steyr's assessment is the norm, yours is the exception.
I won't continue to argue this, but again, you are both wrong. As Fugitive Recovery/Extradition Transports, I've met men in professional law enforcement courts units throughout the country, and in maybe your smallest of towns is what you speak of the "norm".
I won't continue to argue this, but again, you are both wrong. As Fugitive Recovery/Extradition Transports, I've met men in professional law enforcement courts units throughout the country, and in maybe your smallest of towns is what you speak of the "norm".
In my case we are talking Broward Co. courthouse. That covers Ft. Lauderdale so pretty metropolitan. But we are talking about BSO and they pretty much cover the whole spectrum, at the time the Sheriff was Ken Jenne and I don't think professional firearms training was his highest priority. He was later convicted on corruption charges.
The things I repeatedly saw at Broward Co. courthouse would have blown your mind.
Also looks like the ND in a courthouse thing isn't unique to BSO.
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/San-Francisco-Sheriffs-Deputy-Accidentally-Discharges-Weapon-Inside-Hall-of-Justice-375642301.html
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2016/02/06/deputy-discharges-firearm-courthouse/79923512/
And in the second instance was this quote:
"An accidental discharge at any time is thoroughly investigated," Nielson wrote. "It could happen to anyone, and in this case, it was a veteran deputy. This validates the reason for ongoing firearm training. I am relieved that no one was injured."
Ya and you want us to believe on avg most ccw'ers are better trained and more vigilant lol. Ok, say hi to Alice for me in wonder land.
Ya and you want us to believe on avg most ccw'ers are better trained and more vigilant lol. Ok, say hi to Alice for me in wonder land.
The only metrics I've seen as far as LEO VS. Citizens is here: http://americangunfacts.com/
POLICE: 794,300 total police officers
11% error rate
14.3 avg. deaths of a shooting rampage stopped by police
606 criminals killed each year
ARMED CITIZENs: 80,000,000 gun owning citizens
2% error rate
2.3 avg. deaths of a shooting rampage stopped by a citizen
1,527 criminals killed each year
---
So the numbers would seem to support that armed citizens are better trained and more vigilant than LEO's. Of course the above numbers are total armed citizens and not just CCW-ers, but the numbers would likely be flat or better for CCW'ers as many who have CCW's are a bit better trained than those without.
Now I can see how being in a uniform versus being a plains clothes citizen can be very different, has significant draw backs and situations involving LEO's and armed citizens are not going to be the exact same/apples to apples.
But I've never seen any metrics or data suggesting LEO's on average are better trained or more vigilant than armed citizens. Do you have these numbers? It would be interesting to see such data compiled and extrapolated to make sense in an apples to apples sort of way.
And please don't take this as LEO bashing as you have in the past, I'm debating the reality of things. I support LE and armed citizens alike and have no skin in the game as to which is better trained and more vigilant- as you put it. I'd merely like to have data points showing one way or the other, and the above is about all I can come up with.
The only metrics I've seen as far as LEO VS. Citizens is here: http://americangunfacts.com/
POLICE: 794,300 total police officers
11% error rate
14.3 avg. deaths of a shooting rampage stopped by police
606 criminals killed each year
ARMED CITIZENs: 80,000,000 gun owning citizens
2% error rate
2.3 avg. deaths of a shooting rampage stopped by a citizen
1,527 criminals killed each year
---
So the numbers would seem to support that armed citizens are better trained and more vigilant than LEO's. Of course the above numbers are total armed citizens and not just CCW-ers, but the numbers would likely be flat or better for CCW'ers as many who have CCW's are a bit better trained than those without.
Now I can see how being in a uniform versus being a plains clothes citizen can be very different, has significant draw backs and situations involving LEO's and armed citizens are not going to be the exact same/apples to apples.
But I've never seen any metrics or data suggesting LEO's on average are better trained or more vigilant than armed citizens. Do you have these numbers? It would be interesting to see such data compiled and extrapolated to make sense in an apples to apples sort of way.
And please don't take this as LEO bashing as you have in the past, I'm debating the reality of things. I support LE and armed citizens alike and have no skin in the game as to which is better trained and more vigilant- as you put it. I'd merely like to have data points showing one way or the other, and the above is about all I can come up with.
Haha ok. Maybe the avg joe needs to be training police.
Ya and you want us to believe on avg most ccw'ers are better trained and more vigilant lol. Ok, say hi to Alice for me in wonder land.
Not what I said at all. Here is EXACTLY what I said:
"I know a lot of CCW guys who are far more careful about this sort of thing"
I wouldn't know about the average CCW person because I shouldn't be able to know that they are armed. But I know from news reports that many CCW people are just as bad or worse. Sadly I sort of expected that to be the case. I never expected anyone in a courthouse working in close proximity to dangerous criminals to ever display any kind of complacency.
But sadly I've seen enough examples for it not to be a rare anomaly, at least not in my county. But I can't imagine Dade is any better.
Haha ok. Maybe the avg joe needs to be training police.
Most of us "Average Joe's" are trained by LE and Military just like most LEO's.
Care to speak to the linked stats? I am truly interested in your opinion on them. Specifically the error rate, etc of LE VS Citizen shootings.
I can see how the numbers would leave some things out and like I said aren't apples too apples- like the civvie involved in a shooting is usually just there when it goes down and LE is responding, so that changes the dynamic quite a bit. But like I said these are the only numbers I've seen with a direct comparison. If you have some info I don't I'd like for you to share it.
Most of us "Average Joe's" are trained by LE and Military just like most LEO's.
Care to speak to the linked stats? I am truly interested in your opinion on them. Specifically the error rate, etc of LE VS Citizen shootings.
I can see how the numbers would leave some things out and like I said aren't apples too apples- like the civvie involved in a shooting is usually just there when it goes down and LE is responding, so that changes the dynamic quite a bit. But like I said these are the only numbers I've seen with a direct comparison. If you have some info I don't I'd like for you to share it.
Nope, I don't care to. You have your opinion, I have my experiences. I'm not going to change your or my mind.
The only metrics I've seen as far as LEO VS. Citizens is here: http://americangunfacts.com/
POLICE: 794,300 total police officers
11% error rate
14.3 avg. deaths of a shooting rampage stopped by police
606 criminals killed each year
ARMED CITIZENs: 80,000,000 gun owning citizens
2% error rate
2.3 avg. deaths of a shooting rampage stopped by a citizen
1,527 criminals killed each year
---
So the numbers would seem to support that armed citizens are better trained and more vigilant than LEO's. Of course the above numbers are total armed citizens and not just CCW-ers, but the numbers would likely be flat or better for CCW'ers as many who have CCW's are a bit better trained than those without.
Now I can see how being in a uniform versus being a plains clothes citizen can be very different, has significant draw backs and situations involving LEO's and armed citizens are not going to be the exact same/apples to apples.
But I've never seen any metrics or data suggesting LEO's on average are better trained or more vigilant than armed citizens. Do you have these numbers? It would be interesting to see such data compiled and extrapolated to make sense in an apples to apples sort of way.
And please don't take this as LEO bashing as you have in the past, I'm debating the reality of things. I support LE and armed citizens alike and have no skin in the game as to which is better trained and more vigilant- as you put it. I'd merely like to have data points showing one way or the other, and the above is about all I can come up with.
Not sure who is on what side, but you are comparing apples to oranges.
Taking deaths of criminals as a metric, the ratio is: 1 criminal killed for every 1,311 officers; 1 criminal killed for every 52,390 gun owners.
The error rate needs to take into consideration that police are dispatched/sent to the scene of conflict, the armed citizen is there by chance and often has the advantage of being unknown. Because of this the police have more opportunities to make errors in 'rapidly evolving situation requiring split-second decisions' as the SCOTUS said in Graham.
Regarding training, MOST states have very lax/minimal training requirements; most require an initial 'Ray Charles Qual' and then nothing else. Most CCW'ers DO NOT regularly practice. While there is no doubt that as a general rule police firearms training leaves much to be desired, since 2004, LEOSA has required that every officer qualify at least once a year.
Additionally, most training academies, and some agencies make use of Firearms Training Simulators to aid in training officers in decision making, and most officer have experienced at least some form of force-on-force training.
So I would feel very secure in unequivocally stating that the average officer is better trained than the average CCW'er.
What drove me crazy for most of my career is that I saw so many ways we could train officers better and never got the chance due to budget, training hours and 'that's not the way we've always done it.'
Not sure who is on what side, but you are comparing apples to oranges.
Taking deaths of criminals as a metric, the ratio is: 1 criminal killed for every 1,311 officers; 1 criminal killed for every 52,390 gun owners.
The error rate needs to take into consideration that police are dispatched/sent to the scene of conflict, the armed citizen is there by chance and often has the advantage of being unknown. Because of this the police have more opportunities to make errors in 'rapidly evolving situation requiring split-second decisions' as the SCOTUS said in Graham.
Regarding training, MOST states have very lax/minimal training requirements; most require an initial 'Ray Charles Qual' and then nothing else. Most CCW'ers DO NOT regularly practice. While there is no doubt that as a general rule police firearms training leaves much to be desired, since 2004, LEOSA has required that every officer qualify at least once a year.
Additionally, most training academies, and some agencies make use of Firearms Training Simulators to aid in training officers in decision making, and most officer have experienced at least some form of force-on-force training.
So I would feel very secure in unequivocally stating that the average officer is better trained than the average CCW'er.
What drove me crazy for most of my career is that I saw so many ways we could train officers better and never got the chance due to budget, training hours and 'that's not the way we've always done it.'
Thank you for the well thought out reply. I am not on any sides here, like I said I support LE and armed citizens alike and made the observation of the stats I posted not being apples/apples comparison.
I'd love for every department to have more training funds, I'd much rather my taxes go that route than to a lot of other silly things they currently get spent on.
I also wish I personally had more of a training budget for my wife and myself.
Thank you for the well thought out reply. I am not on any sides here, like I said I support LE and armed citizens alike and made the observation of the stats I posted not being apples/apples comparison.
I'd love for every department to have more training funds, I'd much rather my taxes go that route than to a lot of other silly things they currently get spent on.
I also wish I personally had more of a training budget for my wife and myself.
You and me both.
I retired recently and have yet to settle into a permanent routine. I have been spending 2 to 3 hours each day at the range working drills in the morning, this what I figured I'd do from here on out, I even budgeted serious money for shooting and riding each month in my 403B draw. Two weeks in and I've blown through the entire month's budget for riding and shooting - and, it has been so hot in the afternoons I haven't made it to the skeet range.
I'm thinking about switching to .22 three days a week.
You and me both.
I retired recently and have yet to settle into a permanent routine. I have been spending 2 to 3 hours each day at the range working drills in the morning, this what I figured I'd do from here on out, I even budgeted serious money for shooting and riding each month in my 403B draw. Two weeks in and I've blown through the entire month's budget for riding and shooting - and, it has been so hot in the afternoons I haven't made it to the skeet range.
I'm thinking about switching to .22 three days a week.
Enjoy your retirement!
No offense, but you've never done the job and do not know, at all, of what you speak. Our courts unit is a solid unit of law enforcement professionals. It's volunteer only, and vetted. It carries more responsibility than any other law enforcement unit and entails far more duties than most other units. There is no other job that puts you and your gun within arms length of unrestrained prisoners more often than a courts detail. Our courts unit is not unique, in fact it mirrors that of most other Colorado SO Courts Units. We train to prevent these things, but they do and can happen. I've had the pleasure of serving in our Courts/Transports/Fugitive Recovery unit for some time. We train hard to prevent this, we cross train with other agencies, we go to schools. But it can and does happen. Now, we regroup in our profession, pick ourselves back up, debrief, train, and go back to work.
So here is a timely example of exactly what I was talking about.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/fl-courthouse--murder-suspect-escapes-20160715-story.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-florida-escape-idUSKCN0ZV2D2
http://wsvn.com/news/local/broward-county-courthouse-evacuated-after-murder-suspect-escapes/
Cliff notes:
A murderer facing a possible death sentence (nothing to lose) manged to escape his shackles, drop his inmate jumpsuit and simply run out of the Broward County Courthouse today.
So clearly he was not adequately secured. He then simply ran from the courtroom despite the presence of TWO bailiffs and in the process slammed the door into a pregnant prosecutor on the other side.
Bailiffs ran after him but he managed to out run them while removing his jumpsuit. He then fled the building wearing black shorts and a white t shirt which means he matches the description of a couple thousand people within a one mile radius of the courthouse.
Broward County Public Defender Howard Finkelstein said someone seemed to have created a distraction in court with some clapping.
“A woman walks in,” said Finkelstein. “She stands up and starts clapping very loud. Next thing that happens is the defendant kicks his feet, the shackles come off as if they were not fastened or he had a key, runs out of the courtroom.”
The suspect, Dayont’e Resiles, was arrested in relation to several home invasions and the stabbing death of one home occupant, Jill Halliburton Su who was 59 years old.
To make matters worse, and to show what is the root of the problem, Broward Sheriff Scott Israel (who I knew personally when he worked for Ft. Lauderdale PD about 20 years ago) immediately blamed the problem on lack of funding and used the instance to blame the country commission because they did not give him a large enough budget to adequately staff the courthouse.
In May of 2016, Scott Israel proposed a $467.8 million budget for countywide service, a $31.8 million increase. That's part of his overall $836 million budget, including fire-rescue, jails and payments from the 13 cities who contract with the agency rather than field their own police forces. The total budget represents a 7.1 percent increase.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/fl-bso-budget-increase-20160517-story.html
At the time of the request, it didn't seem as if Courthouse staff were the main priority however.
Israel said he needs more money to carry out one of his top priorities: outfitting deputies with body cameras. The cost will be partially borne by the cities that contract with the sheriff's office.
The agency estimates cameras will cost $1,000 per deputy, including data storage, records request processing, software and equipment maintenance. They're expected to be fully rolled out by the end of the summer.
Also on the horizon: an environmentally friendly initiative to replace aging vehicles driven by non-deputies with electric-powered autos.
So there is the problem, from the top down, pretty much everything I originally described.
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