View Full Version : Aimpoint T1 or M4s
Just purchased a Colt 6400c (Only thing close to 6920 legal in my state). Got the Troy BUIS, Surefire forend (questionable decision), Surefire Scout, and Vickers Sling. Intend to make this my primary rifle for HD and at LAV/Hackathorn Night II in November.
The only and most important decision left is Optics. I have Aimpoint M4 on my other Colt and very happy with it. I have heard and seen many good arguments to go with the T1. Because of the price of both, this is one decision i dont want to second guess myself on.
Any thoughts from those with actual use of both from a 16 inch barrelled rifle?
Just purchased a Colt 6400c (Only thing close to 6920 legal in my state). Got the Troy BUIS, Surefire forend (questionable decision), Surefire Scout, and Vickers Sling. Intend to make this my primary rifle for HD and at LAV/Hackathorn Night II in November.
The only and most important decision left is Optics. I have Aimpoint M4 on my other Colt and very happy with it. I have heard and seen many good arguments to go with the T1. Because of the price of both, this is one decision i dont want to second guess myself on.
Any thoughts from those with actual use of both from a 16 inch barrelled rifle?
SBR = Micro
16" = M4
This is of course just my opinion. Both are fantastic and both will work just fine on either weapons.
C4
BushmasterFanBoy
09-01-08, 10:40
I like the M4s because you can have a less than perfect cheek weld and still see the dot fine. The 20mm lens vs. 30mm lens lets you see the dot with a wider field of head movement in the M4s. Grant makes a good point too, SBRs work nice with the T1 and longer guns can handle better with the M4s.
Matt Edwards
09-01-08, 11:04
Personaly, I think the T-1 is pretty much the answer on a carbine, be it a SBR, or 16 inch. It makes he weapon seem like you are running it without optics at all, untill you bring it up to eye level. My other carbine has a 68 on it. It is amazing how much more sight seems to be in you face once you get use to the T-1. I'll admit, the look of the T1 is a little strange, but there is nothing strange about it's performance.
Just my 2 cents...
Matt
CarlosDJackal
09-01-08, 11:28
My vote: :)
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w169/CarlosDJackal/CurrentSBR.jpg
My vote: :)
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w169/CarlosDJackal/CurrentSBR.jpg
Would your vote be different if you had a 16 inch barrel?
I don't get this "big gun, big Aimpoint; small gun, small Aimpoint" theory.
If you want small and light, get small and light. If you want rugged, get rugged.
If you want middle of the road in price and performance, Aimpoint has you covered there as well.
It seems to me the Micro was brought about for stuff that it's hard to put a RDS on, like an AK, bolt gun, hunting pistol, what have you. It's easy to put an RDS on an AR, so what you really buy in that role is light weight. The trade off is smaller optic window requiring better cheek weld, and harder to use controls (don't tell me the click wheel isn't a bit of a PITA).
Don't get me wrong, light weight is nothing to sneeze at. It definitely improves the handling characteristics of the gun.
OTOH, the M4 offers superior ruggedness and reliability with a small dot and insane battery life. It comes at the cost of more weight and more $$.
Different strokes for different folks. If I had to choose between the two, I'd probably take the Micro. But for an AR I'd rather have an M3 and ~$100 to spare after getting the mount.
CarlosDJackal
09-01-08, 15:03
Would your vote be different if you had a 16 inch barrel?
Nope!! I am planning on taking this T-1 (w/Larue mount) with me on my planned overseas deployment next year (if it happens anyway).
I don't get this "big gun, big Aimpoint; small gun, small Aimpoint" theory.
If you want small and light, get small and light. If you want rugged, get rugged.
If you want middle of the road in price and performance, Aimpoint has you covered there as well.
This is very simple. One of the main reasons to go with an SBR is cut weight. You do everything you can to do this (like using a Micro Aimpoint).
If you are running a 16" AR, the weight really isn't too much of an issue to you so go with the longer run time that the M4 provides.
It seems to me the Micro was brought about for stuff that it's hard to put a RDS on, like an AK, bolt gun, hunting pistol, what have you. It's easy to put an RDS on an AR, so what you really buy in that role is light weight. The trade off is smaller optic window requiring better cheek weld, and harder to use controls (don't tell me the click wheel isn't a bit of a PITA).
I do not find the Micro any slower that say the M4 (own both of them). With both eyes open, there is no speed difference.
Don't get me wrong, light weight is nothing to sneeze at. It definitely improves the handling characteristics of the gun.
OTOH, the M4 offers superior ruggedness and reliability with a small dot and insane battery life. It comes at the cost of more weight and more $$.
Different strokes for different folks. If I had to choose between the two, I'd probably take the Micro. But for an AR I'd rather have an M3 and ~$100 to spare after getting the mount.
There is no difference between the ruggedness of the Micro and the M4.
C4
This is very simple. One of the main reasons to go with an SBR is cut weight. You do everything you can to do this (like using a Micro Aimpoint).
If you are running a 16" AR, the weight really isn't too much of an issue to you so go with the longer run time that the M4 provides.
Well there's one I never heard before. Going SBR to cut weight. Show of hands, SBR owners. How many of you went SBR to save weight?
And if one is bound to the 16" barrel, shouldn't THAT be the guy looking to cut weight by going to the smaller optic?
I don't think so. I don't see a good reason to correlate barrel length to heavy Aimpoint or light Aimpoint. The arguments work both ways.
I do not find the Micro any slower that say the M4 (own both of them). With both eyes open, there is no speed difference.
Being the good shooter you are, I'll bet. Me, on the other hand, I suck. My head comes up off the stock when I'm looking around. I lose the dot in the tube sometimes. I don't get the best cheekweld always. And I have found that a bigger tube can aid in speed by allowing faster dot acquisition. For me.
There is no difference between the ruggedness of the Micro and the M4.
That may be entirely true. In fact, one could make the argument that the smaller sight may be less prone to breakage as it is less likely to get knocked into stuff.
Robb Jensen
09-01-08, 18:32
This is very simple. One of the main reasons to go with an SBR is cut weight. You do everything you can to do this (like using a Micro Aimpoint).
If you are running a 16" AR, the weight really isn't too much of an issue to you so go with the longer run time that the M4 provides.
I do not find the Micro any slower that say the M4 (own both of them). With both eyes open, there is no speed difference.
There is no difference between the ruggedness of the Micro and the M4.
C4
I agree mostly ;)
I don't know if the Micro would survive the 'mass light emitting/heavy-loud concussion device' secured to it and detonated as one particular PD did to a M4 recently........it survived.
I agree in that the Micro is a damn awesome optic but I think the M4/M4S would be better for non-gun people issue.
As i said to Grant directly i dont have access to an SBR and dont know that i would go in that direction if i did. Weight is the issue for me. I will also have to be more vigilant with the battery than with my M4.
I have already put in my order with Grant for the T1.
I hope i dont find the smaller tube to be an issue (in terms of aquisition) or as many of us have experienced in the past with poor choices in gear-i will not be happy.
I agree in that the Micro is a damn awesome optic but I think the M4/M4S would be better for non-gun people issue.
Could you explain further, what you meant here? I'm contemplating my next purchase. I'm selling my M2 because it seemed that it was "bulky" compared to the T1 I fired on my brother's AR. I don't recall having a problem finding the dot, but now I'm second guessing.
Jay Cunningham
09-01-08, 19:48
I am not understanding most of this either and I must say I find myself more in agreement with subzero.
When the T-1 first came out it seemed too good to be true so everyone was qualifying its employment by saying "well, it might be good on an SBR"...
As time moves forward this is going by the wayside because the only difference between an SBR and anything else is a couple of inches of barrel. In reality, the T-1 has proven itself in fact too good to be true.
Robb Jensen
09-01-08, 20:04
Could you explain further, what you meant here? I'm contemplating my next purchase. I'm selling my M2 because it seemed that it was "bulky" compared to the T1 I fired on my brother's AR. I don't recall having a problem finding the dot, but now I'm second guessing.
If you thought the M2 was bulky then you really should get the T1 and I'd suggest the ADM mount for it. My meaning was that the M4 is 'butt simple', you don't even have to think how to install a mount so you really can't mess that up since it's already attached to the optic right out of the box. With the M4 you install the battery, mount the M4 on the AR, sight it in and leave it on....done. With the T1/H1, you'll have to change the mount (not stripping the screws), mount to the gun (adjusting mount to fit the gun), remove both elevation and windage caps (completely off gun, they're not tethered to the optic), sight in, reinstall caps (not losing them).
I too find no difference in speed using a T1 vs a M3 or M4. I do prefer the number of brightness settings of the M4/M4S.
I am not understanding most of this either and I must say I find myself more in agreement with subzero.
When the T-1 first came out it seemed too good to be true so everyone was qualifying its employment by saying "well, it might be good on an SBR"...
As time moves forward this is going by the wayside because the only difference between an SBR and anything else is a couple of inches of barrel. In reality, the T-1 has proven itself in fact too good to be true.
Can you explain what you mean (elaborate)in your last sentence? Is it disapproval of the T1?
Jay Cunningham
09-01-08, 20:25
Can you explain what you mean (elaborate)in your last sentence? Is it disapproval of the T1?
No.
It means the T-1 really is almost too good to be true. It easily does what the M2 and M3 series did but at a fraction of the size and weight. The M4 has longer life (longer than 5 years lol) and has more brightness adjust and a 2 moa dot but the T-1 is an absolutely INCREDIBLE piece of engineering.
No.
It means the T-1 really is almost too good to be true. It easily does what the M2 and M3 series did but at a fraction of the size and weight. The M4 has longer life (longer than 5 years lol) and has more brightness adjust and a 2 moa dot but the T-1 is an absolutely INCREDIBLE piece of engineering.
Thank you.
RogerinTPA
09-01-08, 21:13
The T-1 or H-1 would be idea IF it had variable Red Dot, that adjust from 1 MOA, 2MOA and 4MOA, with the click of a knob or 3 position switch....I know, wishful thinking, but an H-1 in 2 MOA is my Christmas fantasy.:)
If you thought the M2 was bulky then you really should get the T1 and I'd suggest the ADM mount for it.
Maybe bulky was the wrong way to put it. I've never had a problem with the M2 before, but when I shot it along with the T1, the mass of the two seemed much greater than I anticipated if that makes sense. I was impressed with it. I don't have a problem finding the dot on either, but my experience is limited to a few magazines through the T1. For me I think going with an M3 with 2 MOA dot is a better option than an M4, if I decide not to go with the T1.
All I know is that I want a M4S on my middy. I think the T1 is intriuging.
"I agree in that the Micro is a damn awesome optic but I think the M4/M4S would be better for non-gun people issue."
I don't understand this sentence, please explain? I read it again and I still don't get it. Thanks.
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Robb Jensen
09-02-08, 05:16
All I know is that I want a M4S on my middy. I think the T1 is intriuging.
"I agree in that the Micro is a damn awesome optic but I think the M4/M4S would be better for non-gun people issue."
I don't understand this sentence, please explain? I read it again and I still don't get it. Thanks.
__________________
See post #15 https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=212575&postcount=15
See post #15 https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=212575&postcount=15
Why does the mount on a T1 have to be changed?
I don't get this "big gun, big Aimpoint; small gun, small Aimpoint" theory.
My thinking on this, for what it's worth...
I think that the bigger Aimpoints are better than the micros. I could go into why, but it's not really germane at this point. Suffice it to say that it's my opinion.
As such, the Micro represents a compromise IMHO. If you're going to compromise, you need to do a cost:benefits analysis (and I'm not talking dollars). For me, the benefit is the light weight and compact size, and therefore it only makes sense to put a compact lightweight optic on a compact lightweight gun.
Other reasons to opt for the micro may be that you have an already loaded-down gun with a suppressor, redimag, etc. and you want to save the ounces.
However, for a general purpose optic/gun I will always steer people towards the M4s first, and the C3 second, with the ML3 as a middle option (to me, if you're going to save money, then REALLY save money and go with the C3).
I don't want to wade too deep into this as it's something I'm working on for my site (need a few more examples of things to get weights on first, and need to find the time to write it), but there's my take in a nutshell. ;)
Well there's one I never heard before. Going SBR to cut weight. Show of hands, SBR owners. How many of you went SBR to save weight?
I have my hand in the air. ;) The lighter the weapon the more maneuverable it is.
And if one is bound to the 16" barrel, shouldn't THAT be the guy looking to cut weight by going to the smaller optic?
A person running a 16" is already running a heavy weapon (compared to an SBR) so I don't think it matters and would take advantage of the longer battery life that the M4 provides.
I don't think so. I don't see a good reason to correlate barrel length to heavy Aimpoint or light Aimpoint. The arguments work both ways.
I do think so. If you already have a heavy weapon then you might as well get the benefits of the longer battery life.
Being the good shooter you are, I'll bet. Me, on the other hand, I suck. My head comes up off the stock when I'm looking around. I lose the dot in the tube sometimes. I don't get the best cheekweld always. And I have found that a bigger tube can aid in speed by allowing faster dot acquisition. For me.
You always have to use what works for you.
That may be entirely true. In fact, one could make the argument that the smaller sight may be less prone to breakage as it is less likely to get knocked into stuff.
It is very minimalistic for sure Tom.
C4
Why does the mount on a T1 have to be changed?
Because it is too low to co-witness.
C4
BushmasterFanBoy
09-02-08, 10:50
Just thought I would throw in a bit more that what I originally added.
Like everyone else has mentioned the small window on the T-1 is unforgiving in regards to where you can place your head. You need to get a good cheek weld so that you can see the dot. This slows you down.
The T-1 also has a horrible brightness adjustment knob, I would venture to say that it is in face worse than EoTechs, but that is merely my opinion. It certainly is worse than the knob found on the M4.
The T-1 has also worse battery life than the M4 and doesn't use the ubiquitous AA batteries found in the M4.
Cons
Smaller tube leads to unforgiving head placement
Poor ergonomics
Battery Life is less than the M4 and batteries aren't in your TV remote
Pros
Cheaper than M4
Smaller and lighter than the M4
To me the advantages of the T-1 are not worth the sacrifices you make when you go the T-1 route. Sure it may be the new fangled fad item to have, but honestly it serves a niche role for weapons that are weight restricted and do not cope well with having optics on them. The M4/M4s are more of a general issue sighting system.
Just thought I would throw in a bit more that what I originally added.
Like everyone else has mentioned the small window on the T-1 is unforgiving in regards to where you can place your head. You need to get a good cheek weld so that you can see the dot. This slows you down.
The T-1 also has a horrible brightness adjustment knob, I would venture to say that it is in face worse than EoTechs, but that is merely my opinion. It certainly is worse than the knob found on the M4.
The T-1 has also worse battery life than the M4 and doesn't use the ubiquitous AA batteries found in the M4.
Cons
Smaller tube leads to unforgiving head placement
Poor ergonomics
Battery Life is less than the M4 and batteries aren't in your TV remote
Pros
Cheaper than M4
Smaller and lighter than the M4
To me the advantages of the T-1 are not worth the sacrifices you make when you go the T-1 route. Sure it may be the new fangled fad item to have, but honestly it serves a niche role for weapons that are weight restricted and do not cope well with having optics on them. The M4/M4s are more of a general issue sighting system.
Grant and i had a relatively long phone conversation this morning regarding this topic. All of the pros/cons you mention were discussed. In addition, the pro (price) does not exist since adding the necessary additional $80-100 mount (for co-witness w/BUIS) negates any savings.
Additionally since i already have an M4 on my other rifle (that im very happy with), transitioning from one rifle to another is more fluid.
I wish the T1 much luck and happiness but i will stay with what i know to work well for me. I have to admit that if it were not for the additional expense and labor of the necessary mount and my comfort with the M4's tube diameter and 2 moa, i would have gone with the T1.
Because it is too low to co-witness.
C4
Grant, does the M4 with the standard mount absolute co-witness without spacers, etc?
I have a question on the M4s. I recently purchased one and it seems like I only have 15 intensity settings unless the off position counts as one. setting 12 is at the 9 o'clock position. Anyone else notice this?
johes,
The CompM4 and CompM4S with standard factory mount and spacer (included and installed on the sight) co-witnesses with AR sights.
Rich,
See my response at the other thread where asked the same question. Short answer is that there are 16 settings. There is no off position. The first setting is a night vision setting.
S/F
First of all the battery thing to me is a wash. I have never seen AA batteries go 8 years without corosion. 4-5 years for the T-1 with 2032s thats good enough for me besides on a Larue tall mount there is enough room up inside the mount to fit 2 extra 2032s and wrap them in a water proof material just in case. To me the lighter ( probably because Im getting to old to lug around heavy rifles lol) is the way to go. I think if you practice enough with it you can be just as fast as a M4s
SgtMaj,
AA Alkalines might corrode, but AA Lithium batteries shouldn't. I recommend AA lithium batteries for those using CompM4's in combat zones, esp. areas that will experience significant temperature variations.
S/F
I just wish the M4 was shipped without a mount to lessen it's cost since I would want a lever style mount anyway. If it was I would have went that way instead of the ML3 for the AA batteries. For that matter it sounds like the T1/H1 could benefit from being offered without a mount for a cheaper price.
I just wish the M4 was shipped without a mount to lessen it's cost since I would want a lever style mount anyway. If it was I would have went that way instead of the ML3 for the AA batteries. For that matter it sounds like the T1/H1 could benefit from being offered without a mount for a cheaper price.
If you get it from Larue, you at least get the AP with their mount at the standard MSRP. Granted that is $702, but the mount separately is $125 so it's not a bad deal at all IMO...
I just wish the M4 was shipped without a mount to lessen it's cost since I would want a lever style mount anyway. If it was I would have went that way instead of the ML3 for the AA batteries. For that matter it sounds like the T1/H1 could benefit from being offered without a mount for a cheaper price.
I have already asked Aimpoint about doing this and was told no.
C4
If you get it from Larue, you at least get the AP with their mount at the standard MSRP. Granted that is $702, but the mount separately is $125 so it's not a bad deal at all IMO...
When you buy a M4 from us, you get the orig. mount from us as well.
C4
When you buy a M4 from us, you get the orig. mount from us as well.
C4
Ah...thanks for the heads up, I didn't realize you had that bundle up :D
I didn't think about buying from Larue. I wonder what they do with the mounts the sight comes with?
I can understand whay Aimpoint doesn't want to sell them without a mount.
When you buy a M4 from us, you get the orig. mount from us as well.
C4
Do you have the M4S bundled with mount available? I don't see that on the site.
Do you have the M4S bundled with mount available? I don't see that on the site.
The option is there under a pull down.
C4
The option is there under a pull down.
C4
D'oh! Sorry for the stupid questions...but thanks:)
One more dumb question Grant...I don't see the M4S or T-1 listed in package form with the ADM mounts as options...is this something you can do (more specifically with the M4S) and if so would it be the same price point as the M4S package with the LT mount?
One more dumb question Grant...I don't see the M4S or T-1 listed in package form with the ADM mounts as options...is this something you can do (more specifically with the M4S) and if so would it be the same price point as the M4S package with the LT mount?
Just click on the Package Deals link on the front page of his store, they're all there.
Just click on the Package Deals link on the front page of his store, they're all there.
Thanks...I was looking under "Aimpoint"...
Just click on the Package Deals link on the front page of his store, they're all there.
Thank you for the assistance.
C4
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